Meditation

[Heijo-shin]

How do u know if your correctly meditating??. I try to do what is called "mokuso" it is training the mind to return to a state of a new born child - that is - without fear, not conscious of distress, pain, cold etc.
Your ment to sit in seiza and look 2 metres away at a spot on a floor. then, as u breath in count 1, breath out count 2 etc. whilst all the time not thinking of anything but the breathing techneque. However what or when do u know if its working?? Could someone please enlighten me!!

:confused:

[YODA]

A genuine question relatinmg to martial arts practice! We're getting there!

Here is a link that may help... the guide can be downloaded at the bottom of the page.

http://www.zenguide.com/concepts/zazen.cfm

Now - about that sig....

[Jack]

A site on zazen:

http://www.mro.org/zmm/zazen.shtml


A free book (that I payed for, well worth it) that deals with the Vipassana style of meditation:

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english.php

And a specific chapter from the book that deals with distractions, including mental tactics on dealing with PAIN which you could find helpful...

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english_12.php

:)


Oh yes, Dave, do you still hold the opinion of meditation being selfish and supportive of the ego?

[PlasticDragon]

Meditation is very testing experience and it's amazing how many people give up before reaching.

No matter how many books you read or methods you try, there is only one true meditative state and there are no short cuts in getting there I am afraid.

I started meditiation about 6 years ago and tried many many varieties and 'magic' techniques, it took a long time and a lot of dissappointments before realising that the techniques dont actually mean anything themselves,, they are only a means to an end, and not every means works for every person.

What you are seeking is a state in 'blankness' in your mind.
The method I use now is just to focus on the colour black (NOT the word). Its virtually impossible to empty your mind because emptiness doesn't actually exist and the mind cant focus actively on nothing.

When you have you eyes closed and you are trying to meditate try focusing on the colour of blackness. At first (as you are no doubt finding already) the mind wanders to this and that and thoughts keep creeping back in. You challenge is to push them out and keep returning your focus to the colour of blackness.

In the beginning you will probably find it impossible to keep focused purely on blackness for more than a minute without something entering your mind, a sound distracting you or something breaking the focus. Each time this happens, just return your mind back to the blackness.

Over time (its can take a long time depending on your commitment and belief in doing it) you will find that your mind can focus on the balck for 5 mins, 10 minutes, 15, 20, 30 mins, once you reach 30 minutes or there abouts you will realise something; that you ahve achieved a meditative state.

It is simply a pure state of mind focus, the focus is so deep that the act of focusing is lost. You are no longer conciosly focusing on the black, you are simply drifiting insdie that focus. One thing is certain when you achieve that state you WILL know.
When you finish a good meditation you will feel the difference in yourself immediately. You feel sharper calmer and more able.

The simple truth is that you ARE sharper. Its like training your body, it takes time because the body is learning a new way. Training your mind to close out everything and focus to the point you have even lost the act of focusing takes time.
So many people give up because they keep getting distracted by sounds, or thoughts like "is this working" and "i'm bored", the truth is those thoughts are your challenge. Push them out everytime they come and focus on the black again. Just visualise the colour inyour minds eye and never shift your focus from it, think of nothing else and push out anything that distracts you from that.
You may also find it easier laying down to meditate , you dont need to assume any position to achieve the state. As long as you are wholly relaxed and comfortable, you can meditate.

There are many methods you can try but really the more you look for the perfect method the more you get away from the truth. Its not the method thats failing, its you yourself.

Just choose a method and stick with it. I prefer the blackness method because it allows me to focus on somthing which is naturally there when you have your eyes closed; the dark.

I can achieve that state regularly now but I still have a long way to go, there are points within meditation when you can become almost 'soluble' in body and mind. Almost a hallucinatory level which I have reached maybe twice now, but even then I cant retain that level of focus for more than few minutes which is poor.
I suppose thats the point where the brain is torn between awakeness and the subconscious state. Whatever, its a very interesting feeling and exceptionally refreshing.

Even when you havent achieved a meditation state you are doing doing a lot of good in your mind by teaching yourself to create and hold a single focus against all distraction, that is really the reason it works so well with martial arts I think. Being able to focus to a point of clarity from distraction is a good thing to learn.
I remember when I strated though, its very disheartening and I stop-start-stopped for months here and there when I thought I wasnt getting anywhere.
Once you succeed once then you will find the detramination to achieve it always is a lot stronger. At least then you know what it is you are doing :)

Good Luck with it.

[Jack]

PlasticDragon - Your focus is the colour black, the focus in Zazen is the breath. The breath is easier to concentrate on because it causes a tactile sensation you can rest your awareness upon. Red apple or green apple?

"What you are seeking is a state in 'blankness' in your mind."

Blankness, no. One-pointedness of focus in concentration meditation, yes. Awareness of all phenomenon in mindfulness meditation, yes. "Drifting" seems like a bad choice of words, in meditation one should be firmly rooted in the present moment, not drifting away in some thoughtless state.

Meditation is not about completely silencing the mind. True there is the state of Jahna(sp?) that is a mind of silence, a blissful and refreshing state. It is a great, beautiful experience, but it is NOT the goal of meditation; enlightenment.

After you have built good concentration so you can achieve states of Jahna, and can perfectly focus on your breath for several minutes at a time, if you care for enlightenment and not just enjoyable states of mind, one starts mindfulness meditation (read the link in my above post) - this is where one begins to mindfully observe all physical and mental phenomenom without grasping, aversion, or judgment.. just simple observation... this is how we pierce through labels and conceptions and misperceptions to see TRUE, UNADORNED, reality in every day life.

No disrespect ment, I know and respect there are a thousand different techniques and you are right, which one you pick isn't all that important... I just needed to point out that reaching silent states isn't the ultimate goal of the practicioner.

Peace,
Jack

[PlasticDragon]

Jack, while I respect your opinion I have to stress that is all it is :)

I don't mean that to sound rude, but your choice of words to explain the state and your choice of proicess are purely perspective based.

I choose not to use the term 'enlightenment' because I find it to be highly misleading. You are not 'enlightened' by meditation in as much as you are focused to the point of drifting beyoind the point of focus.
The reason I use the term drifting because to trully meditate you must 'drift', if you are actively aware of the focusing process then you have failed in your objective; achieveing the meditative state.
The state of meditation is at the point when you do indeed 'drift' in so far as you lose even the awareness of the process of holding the focus and just exist in the focus state of mind.

You are not trully drifting, but the word is useful in describing the process.

I began meditation with the stuff you are describing, and to be honest I have come to find it rather 'wishy washy'. Even doctrine has its own way of defining and engaging with meditation.
On the breathing method its one I personally would not use for many reason. Firstly breathing is natural process whcih requires no focus and focusing on it only disrupts the natural rythm. Breathing is something I learned externally to the meditation process. I do breath rythmically for meditation but I do so naturally and don't focus on that to facilitate the process.

The reason I use the blackness method is because I find it the easiest and most natural method of achieving the meditative state. All paths lead to the same place, so if you have a method that works for you then theres no reason to change that.

The state of 'enlightenment' as you describe it doesn't require meditiation itself all it requires an understanding of semantics and the ability to question oneself and ones motives constantly. Its far more philosophical than it is related to the meditative state.

You can't meditate and think actively at the same time as the two sides are opposed. Meditation is a process of menbatl preparation used to clear the mind and synchronise with the body. 'Elightenment' is something you may or may not choose and doesn't require meditation to be achieved.

I understand where you are coming from most of the old meditative doctrines follow this line, but they were created from as much myth as reality and sometimes I find it best to cut out the myth to concentrate on the act of meditating itself.

The other side I get from a study of philosophy and an undestanding of semantics and other schools.

But, as you noted, red apple green apple, whats most important is that you get what you need from the mthods and understandings you engage with.

I have my way which works for me thats all :)

[Jack]

Note to self: Don't try to enter discussions in early morning.

"I don't mean that to sound rude, but your choice of words to explain the state and your choice of proicess are purely perspective based."

I know this. :)

Regarding the drifting/focusing/active awareness - I find that words start to fail in attempting to describe what we truly mean here. I have had many succesful meditations with a non-thinking awareness of myself. When I think and then I become aware of thought and return to the breath, there is no thought going "I was thinking, I am returning to the breath" - that definitely is NOT mindfulness, that is thinking, I agree.

Regarding the breath - it is fully possible to simply observe and feel the breath without changing it, although it is often difficult for the immediate beginner. Once we have learnt to simply watch it, we have learnt a little about our own compulsive need to control the universe.


"The reason I use the blackness method is because I find it the easiest and most natural method of achieving the meditative state. All paths lead to the same place, so if you have a method that works for you then theres no reason to change that."

Agreed... breath for me, blackness for you. :)

"The state of meditation is at the point when you do indeed 'drift' in so far as you lose even the awareness of the process of holding the focus and just exist in the focus state of mind."

I know what you mean, I have experienced this a few times. Your mind stops perceiving the state you are in, leaving you "drifting" along perfectly in harmony with the present moment. I do consider this powerful and beautiful, but it is not my sole goal in meditation.

"You can't meditate and think actively at the same time as the two sides are opposed."

Please define "Active" and "passive" thinking for me. It depends on the style of meditation you do, but in the one I am familiar with, no-though is not a prerequesite of meditation. The concentration aspect of my meditation can focus the awareness on the breath, an image, etc., whilst the mindfulness aspect remains aware of myself as I am thinking, as I am experiencing an emotion, from where I can choose to either sit and watch these things run through, or to bring my attention back to the breath, depending on which meditation I am doing. I find thinking to be one of the most valuable things in meditation, I can learn about myself from my thought patterns, or use them to tell me when my concentration has failed.

You do know where I am coming from and I see you have some more eclectic views on meditation that I find interesting. I think you should visit www.beliefnet.com, go to the Buddhist section of Discussions and post your views up if you'd care for a good debate.

Apoligies if I came off as opinionated and rude earlier, early morning posting on something like this isn't wise. :)

Jack

[PlasticDragon]

Jack, no you didn't seem opinionated at all, I was just trying to make sure I didn't either :)

What you seem to be describing is contemplation?
Thats something I do seperately. Maybe I will meditate to clear my mind and make sure I am clear headed before contemplating an important issue or choice.

I can sort of see what you are describing but I can't see how it works. If you have major issue to consider you need to run through many perspectives and consepts to give it full consideration. That is what I term as active thinking.
Wouldn't that prevent you from getting into the deeper state of meditation?

Theres no real right or wrong. I guess meditation/contemplation and which, what and wherefore are very subjective depending which path you choose to follow.
I use meditation purely for getting into deep focus states, and I genrally contemplate seprately combined with reading philosphies or other things which spark me off on deep thinking :)

I will try drop by that forum and see whats being discussed there, am a little pushed for time today though.
Its definately a fascinating subject with many angles and facets to it. Nice talking to you.

[Heijo-shin]

hey you guys thanks very much i've just had a quick glance through all the posts recieved and im pleased to say i'm begining to understand it all a little better, i'll have a good read of it all tomorrow, thanks again :)

[Jack]

Glad you have benefited Heijo. :)

PlastiDragon - its definitely not contemplation, nor active thinking. It is meditation. The focus of the meditation is to let whatever thoughts arise pass by without getting caught up in them, as opposed to maximising concentration on something (breath, blackness)

:)

Jack