Something Strange?

[Wolf]

So, I just went to the kuk sool website. A bunch of promotions have happened apparantly, but there's something strange. Neither Master Sims or Cherowitz is listed anymore, and both their schools are gone from teh schools page. Does anyone know what's up with this?

[AZeitung]

That's wierd, since yesterday, Master Lee wasn't listed anymore, either - and I'm sure he was there about a month or two ago. Maybe they've been promoted and they're going to put up new pictures, but haven't taken them yet, so they just took the old ones down?

edit: but you say the schools are gone too. . . that's wierd.

[TXKukSoolBB]

I have not heard of anything here either.

[Wolf]

I didn't even notice that Chiefmaster In Joo Suh has been promoted to 10th Dan!

[AZeitung]

Did Kuk Sa Nim (In Hyuk Suh) die, or something?

[baubin2]

Maybe he just retired? He didn't look like he was about to die, and I'm sure they would have posted something if he had.

Edited to add: And I don't think it's just a case of taking new pictures for people either, as the old pictures from those who have been promoted are still up there. For instance, people who have been promoted to 7th dan are up there in their old 6th dan doboks. And I count 8 blank spaces on the schools section of the site, including Master Simm's space. So this is really strange. Are we sure there is no explanation of this on the site somewhere?

[TXKukSoolBB]

Kuk Sa Nim is fine and has not retired. Chief Master is in fact now a 10th degree although I'm not sure what to call him now. I hear that the promotion took place when Chief Master was assigned the head of the Korean operation and VP of Kuk Sool overall. As far as Master Sims...I don't know. I have put out the word for information. When I hear of something I will share (assuming someone else does not find out anything else first.)

[AZeitung]

Turns out Master Sims retired recently. I don't know why, or exactly what went on.

Anyway, Kuk Sa Nim strikes me as the kind of guy who would hang on to the organization until he dies. I doubt he'll retire until then.

[justinksw]

Anyway, Kuk Sa Nim strikes me as the kind of guy who would hang on to the organization until he dies. I doubt he'll retire until then.

I guess that's the extreme of being 'forced into retirement'!

[KSWDragon]

Turns out Master Sims retired recently. I don't know why, or exactly what went on.


Seems a bit weird to just remove his photo and school. Surely at his level he is still respected enough to retain his 7th degree even if he wants to stop teaching?

How do you retire from being a master? I don't get it - he's still a master so why remove him. I think there's something going on :confused:

[JKN_RSM]

There were rumours that he was told by Kuk Sa Nim that he was no longer allowed to travel to the UK to do seminars and would have to wait until he was asked to go because supposedly he was injuring everyone that he done techniques on!

Again look at the history books....100's of masters have left Kuk Sa Nim for many reasons. Holding some back in terms of promotion due to personal reasons, money, etc....There have even been occasions where a student has wanted to open a school within the 20 mile zone of his instructor and Kuk Sa Nim has signed it for approval....

Nowadays Kuk Sa Nim is just interested in money, money, money.

[baubin2]

Seems a bit weird to just remove his photo and school. Surely at his level he is still respected enough to retain his 7th degree even if he wants to stop teaching?

How do you retire from being a master? I don't get it - he's still a master so why remove him. I think there's something going on :confused:
I asked my instructor this question myself, because I've never heard of anyone retiring from their own heads. But he wasn't really able to tell me anything. Probably because he doesn't really know himself.

Incidentally, I heard that the WKSA website is really incomplete. As in not nearly everybody is listed on it. Maybe that has something to do with this?

There were rumours that he was told by Kuk Sa Nim that he was no longer allowed to travel to the UK to do seminars and would have to wait until he was asked to go because supposedly he was injuring everyone that he done techniques on!
I could believe that. I've heard many stories about how tough Master Simms can be. And didn't he teach at west point?

Again look at the history books....100's of masters have left Kuk Sa Nim for many reasons. Holding some back in terms of promotion due to personal reasons, money, etc....There have even been occasions where a student has wanted to open a school within the 20 mile zone of his instructor and Kuk Sa Nim has signed it for approval....
Really? Care to give any particulars? I must say, this isn't terribly reassuring.

Nowadays Kuk Sa Nim is just interested in money, money, money.
You probably unfortunately have a point there :(

[KSWDragon]

There were rumours that he was told by Kuk Sa Nim that he was no longer allowed to travel to the UK to do seminars and would have to wait until he was asked to go because supposedly he was injuring everyone that he done techniques on!

Again look at the history books....100's of masters have left Kuk Sa Nim for many reasons. Holding some back in terms of promotion due to personal reasons, money, etc....There have even been occasions where a student has wanted to open a school within the 20 mile zone of his instructor and Kuk Sa Nim has signed it for approval....

Nowadays Kuk Sa Nim is just interested in money, money, money.

The more and more I progress in KS the more I hear things and really begin to dislike the organisation. I love the training and what is involved but the politics really put you off. If I hadn't already spent so much time training in it I'd prob leave and do something else!!

What is this 20 mile zone? I've never heard of this. I had heard of a 5 mile radius...20 miles seems a lot :confused:

the way in which KS is organised and run is very off putting! More like a business than teaching a martial art! :bang:

[Wolf]

hey, let's all be careful. I can understand people being put off by the politics. That can be a bit disheartening. One thing we all must understand is that in order to survive the WKSA has to operate as a business. If they don't make money, they can't survive. I get the feeling that a lot of the disension and problems that have arisen may be because the organization isn't run like a democrary (that's the feeling i get anyway). It seems to me (and I could be wrong) the wksa is run more like a monarchy. All final decisions are made by Kuk Sa Nym. Maybe they're just trying to be very traditional in this aspect. There is a lot of talk about Korean Royal Court in the history and alll I don't know.

The 20 mile radius rule was originally setup so that competing schools couldn't be set up. I think there has been an awful lot of attempts on Kuk Sa Nym's part to keep Kuk Sool from splitting into a dozen different associations and federations like has happened in so many other arts. However, with this has come the sacrifice of certain freedoms at the master level. For example, as I understand it none of the masters can create their own training material (i.e. books and videos) for selling to students. Perhaps the thinking is, if Masters are allowed to do this they might eventually split and use this material to start their own Kuk Sool organization. Things like this probably don't sit real well with masters trying to make a living as this limits their options for income. I'm not saying there aren't better ways for preventing splits (as I think there probably are), but I'm just saying I think that's part of the mindset behind it.

I will say this though. When I have to pay my instructors certifcation fee eventually, as well as my further fees for promotion I'd rather pay it to an organization like the WKSA and be attached to a generally well respected organization like that, than windup looking like a McDojo/McDojang that is either unafilliated with any organization or with something like the World Head of Family Sokeship Councel.

[JKN_RSM]

I asked my instructor this question myself, because I've never heard of anyone retiring from their own heads. But he wasn't really able to tell me anything. Probably because he doesn't really know himself.

Incidentally, I heard that the WKSA website is really incomplete. As in not nearly everybody is listed on it. Maybe that has something to do with this?


I could believe that. I've heard many stories about how tough Master Simms can be. And didn't he teach at west point?


Really? Care to give any particulars? I must say, this isn't terribly reassuring.


You probably unfortunately have a point there :(



Master Simms did teach at West Point. He was a physical trainer and hand to hand combat instructor for the Elite Special Forces.

The guy is a machine. He once ripped the hairs out of the chest of a KSN that I know for moving his eyes while standing to attention.

One master that got screwed over was Master Rudy Timmerman from Canada. His student went behind his back and opened a school near his and when he challenged the WKSA HQ they throw his appeal out the door. Master Timmerman left because he felt he could no longer trust the organisation. Ku Sa Nim and his brother GM In Sun Seo also no longer speak due to a private rift.

I once read a letter from Master Timmerman that Kuk Sa Nim had forbidden his son KJN Sung Jin to speak to Timmerman because he left Kuk Sool bearing in mind that both Master Timmerman and KJN Sung Jin were training partners for many years and were close friends.

We can only hope that when KJN Sung Jin takes over that he is more loyal and respectful to the masters and instructors below him. It must be disheartening when the Kuk Sa Nim preaches in his manuals about honour and integrity and loyalty to ones family yet he shafts his top students and longest serving student like this. I think Kuk Sa Nim forgets that without all of the top guys of today he wouldn't be where he is.

No disrespect but Kuk Sool Won the martial art is amazing but like everything in life its the people running it that give it a bad name. Seems to me that they are losing the essence of what martial arts is about!

[AZeitung]

There were rumours that he was told by Kuk Sa Nim that he was no longer allowed to travel to the UK to do seminars and would have to wait until he was asked to go because supposedly he was injuring everyone that he done techniques on!

Again look at the history books....100's of masters have left Kuk Sa Nim for many reasons. Holding some back in terms of promotion due to personal reasons, money, etc....There have even been occasions where a student has wanted to open a school within the 20 mile zone of his instructor and Kuk Sa Nim has signed it for approval....

Nowadays Kuk Sa Nim is just interested in money, money, money.

I had a feeling there was some kind of falling out, and I agree with you on your last point.

[Kwajman]

Maybe you have to pay to be listed or something.

[JSun]

I get the feeling that a lot of the disension and problems that have arisen may be because the organization isn't run like a democrary (that's the feeling i get anyway). It seems to me (and I could be wrong) the wksa is run more like a monarchy. All final decisions are made by Kuk Sa Nym. Maybe they're just trying to be very traditional in this aspect. There is a lot of talk about Korean Royal Court in the history and alll I don't know.

I agree, Paul. You have to give the man his due respect. As founder and Grandmaster, he's the man who devoted his life's work to developing and compiling these techniques into an organized curriculum. If it was me, I'd hold on to the power position as long as possible too.

[AZeitung]

Actually, I had heard it was his brother, In Sun Seo, who organized the techniques into sets.

[Mark Barlow]

I've known Marlin for over 20 years and he's been a guest instructor at a few of the Camps I host. According to an email I recently received, he and his senior students left KSW and Marlin has founded the United Martial Science Federation.

That's all I know but I agree fully that Marlin is one tough fella and an outstanding instructor.

Mark Barlow

[KSWDragon]

That kinda explains it then!

I supose once you get to a certain level you would want a bit more input into what's taught etc. You may study (or want to study) other martial arts and like to combine them into your own art! Taking what YOU think works best from each!

That's what Kuk Sa Nim did.

[Wolf]

However it goes down, Kuk Sool Won is losing a tremendous Martial Artist.

[baubin2]

I knew it couldn't be a simple matter of Simms retiring. This explains it. But not just Kuk Sa Nim's loss Paul, ours too. Like you said, he's an excellent MAist.

BTW JSun, congrats on the promote! Just noticed the switch on your sig :)

[KSWarrior]

I think all of the new changes in rank are a result of KJN Sims leaving. Some of those people who are going up in rank just got promoted in KUK SOOL in Korea in 2002 (I was there) Now three years later they are going up in rank. Seems kind of strange. There are alot of the masters and instructors unhappy with the way the association is ran! Kuk Sa Nym is just trying to keep them happy by issuing them meaningless rank. You know most of the masters don't even know anything past the rank of 4th degree. Kuk Sa nym doesn't teach any of the real techniques in Kuk Sool. Thats why most of the masters leave!! I can't wait to see if KJN Sims is going to comment on him leaving in that magazine he writes for! I think the next issue of Art of the Warrior comes out in October! :woo:

[baubin2]

Kuk Sa nym doesn't teach any of the real techniques in Kuk Sool.
What does this mean? That someone besides Kuk Sa Nym teaches these techniques? That they are not taught at all? And what do you mean by "real techniques"? Thanks

[Wolf]

You know most of the masters don't even know anything past the rank of 4th degree.
I'm curious. How do you know this? Who has told you this? I train directly under a master, and I know he knows more than just 4th degree stuff. I have another friend who trains under Master Evarts. He certainly knows more than 4th Degree stuff. I've also been to seminars and Master's Demos and watched Master Kunz. He seems to know his stuff as well.

Kuk Sa nym doesn't teach any of the real techniques in Kuk Sool. Thats why most of the masters leave!!
I'd like to know your source for this as well. Even if Kuk Sa Nim doesn't teach a lot of the classes at headquarters, I know for a fact Master Harmon does. My old instructor (a 3rd degree) has trained a number of times with him there. Master Harmon is more than qualified to teach masters.

[JSun]

BTW JSun, congrats on the promote! Just noticed the switch on your sig :) Gracias, Baubin. Preciate the recognition :cool:

I've got to say, I'd leave too. If someone was strangling my ability to express myself artistically and professionally, I'd hit the road.

[KSWarrior]

Have you guys ever seen the old chart for techniques from the 80's. The technique organzation has changed. Things that used to be 2 dan stuff is now 4 and 5 dan levels. Check the old charts! The spear form used to be 1st dan now it is 3 or 4. I've been in the art for almost 20 years I've seen the changes made! From what I hear only a few of the masters know the majority of the chart. I understand this is a new art and he is still moving things around and putting things in proper order, but how many techniques are the average kuk Sool stylist not exposed to. Just this year KSN changed the requirments for black belt again. People only need to know up to what used to be brown belt with the addition of the knife defense techniques. Kuk Sa Nym keeps spreading out the techniques thinner and thinner. Soon, you will be a master once you know Ji Ap Sools! That way he can get more money out of you and give up less information. I noticed in Kuk Sool there is a changing of the masters about every 15-20 years. When I first started the master were all korean now they are all gone . . . Why? Where are the old senior Korean Masters. I went to a seminar that In Sun Suh (chief master) put on last year and was teaching spinning palm techniques and gave out all the forms up to 5 dan for a $75 seminar. I got more information there that I do at the WKSA Seminars. And it is the same information! If you guys stick around long enough you will see for yourself! Has anyone picked up that Kuk Sool book by H. Kim? They adervtise it in the Tae Kwon Do Times. Pick it up and you can see how the techniques have been watered down from when that master trained in the 80s. It has all the techniques up to 5 degree black belt!

[Wolf]

Well, that does make sense I guess. I haven't been in Kuk Sool nearly that long. Luckily there are plenty of instructors that don't follow the curriculum to a 'T', and teach stuff sooner than the curriculum says to (at least if you're ready for it).

[baubin2]

Yeah, even the stuff for colored belts got a bit more spread out recently. According to the old teaching system (the one we use in class), I'm still a blue belt, but according to the curriculum currently on the WKSA website, I'm halfway through the redbelt stuff already (hope nobody takes that as a brag, b/c it's not meant to be). Not a big shift in the grand scheme of things, I guess, but further evidence to support your points.

[musool]

Just this year KSN changed the requirments for black belt again. People only need to know up to what used to be brown belt with the addition of the knife defense techniques.

As far as I know, the adult chart for black belt wasn't changed last year. The charts for under 18 were changed and split into 2 charts, one for 12 and under and one for 13 to 17. All certified instructors should know this.

[GetNtheGame]

When did the charts change? I'm in Tae Kwon Do now, but used to be in Kuk Sool about 6 years ago in Columbia. Any of you guys on the list know Robert Cromer? He was my teacher, but I lost touch with him years ago, and now it looks like his school is closed. So what happened with Master Sims? He's gone?!! I went to a seminar he was at in Columbia when I was a student years ago,

[Wolf]

I thought in order to get your blackbelt the last technique sets had always been,
Yahng Ssohn Mohk Soo, Ssang Soo, and Dahn Do Maki?

[Wolf]

They just combined that with stuff that used to be just brown belt, and made it all Brown/Black

[GetNtheGame]

I know that that used to be the requirements. Its been a few years, but when I was in Kuk Sool those were the requirements. So, when did they change? DID they change?

[musool]

You're right, KSW Paul. That is the chart requirement for adults. Children have an abbreviated chart. But after 1st dan black belt, everyone of all ages must test on the same requirements (the whole adult underbelt and the 1st degree chart) for 2nd dan. I've been reading KSWarrior's posts and they are full of unsubstantiated claims and accusations. There are many things I would take issue with. He seems to be on an agenda. If he is one of Master Sims' students as he has said in a post AND if Master Sims has left the Association, then I guess his agenda is apparent. So -- KSWarrior -- when are you going to join the United Martial Science Federation?

[KSWarrior]

Actually it was my understanding that a letter was sent out early this year for the new requirments for testing. when I started kuk sool everyone was under the same chart. That is what I was referring to! that is just one of the changes. MuSool I have no other motives just sharring what was told to me and what I have seen over my years. Take it for what you think it is worth. As I have said before I love the art, the techniques, and the forms. I think this is one of the best arts out, I have been in a couple of different styles but this is the one that feels right to me. So this is were I will stay. I'm getting off work now so everyone have a safe holiday weekend!

[Wolf]

My big question is if the blackbelt curriculum has changed over the last 10-15 years, what used to be at the end of first degree that has been moved up to later degrees? I'm seriouly just curious, and not trying to start an argument.

[musool]

When this came up in discussion, I asked someone who definitely knows the answer. The answer is that the adult chart for black belt has not changed. The techniques are not getting spread out. The organization of them according to underbelt rank may have changed, but they are all still there. And it has been that way since the 80's.

I can see that KSWarrior would prefer to get everything all at once in a $75 seminar. However, there are some students who appreciate the training that goes along with each level, with each technique, each form. Also the right to learn a new form and to learn new techniques is earned with hard work and dedication to the art. I assume that since KSWarrior is in KSW just for the forms and techniques, he or she will forgo the next belt promotion since that would involve testing and being promoted by the "political system."

[Pugil]

When I left the WKSA, in 1989, I was one of the three most senior ranked non-Korean instructors of Kuk Sool in the UK at that time. In fact, I was the very first Englishman in the world (to my sincere knowledge) to gain a certified Black Belt in Kuk Sool Won.

I won't go into the reasons why I resigned, not in print on a forum such as this, but I'd be happy to meet and tell anyone face-to-face why I did so.

Anyway, let me assure you that there is indeed life outside of the WKSA, and I have never ever had a single regret about leaving. I'm sure that Masters, such as Marlin Sims, will not have any regrets about leaving either.

Pugil

[musool]

Whether someone stays in a style or not is his or her own business. But if someone stays in Kuk Sool Won, he shouldn't be a hypocrite. Stay in, get out. Whatever. Just don't be a hypocrite.

[Pugil]

When did the charts change? I'm in Tae Kwon Do now, but used to be in Kuk Sool about 6 years ago in Columbia. Any of you guys on the list know Robert Cromer? He was my teacher, but I lost touch with him years ago, and now it looks like his school is closed. So what happened with Master Sims? He's gone?!! I went to a seminar he was at in Columbia when I was a student years ago,

Anyone know what happened to Jay Lee too, or is he still about somewhere?


Pugil

[Wolf]

My instructor told me that Jay Lee left, but I didn't get a reason.

[Pugil]

My instructor told me that Jay Lee left, but I didn't get a reason.

Another one eh! He'd been in Kuk Sool for Donkey's years too - just like Marlin Sims!

When Larry White was stationed in Suffolk, in the UK, many years ago, he went back to the States and continued his training in Kuk Sool under the WKSA. Some years later, there were guys in the UK getting Master grades in Kuk Sool ahead Larry, who hadn't been involved in Kuk Sool at the time Larry was training in it. I'm more than surprised that he stayed.


Pugil

[KSWarrior]

Good point Pupil. At one point the association had promoted some of his students to the same rank as Master White as well

[GetNtheGame]

Before the current "conspiracy theories" get completely out of hand, Master Jay Lee hasn't been active for YEARS. I think he left to go back to school, but not sure. All of that happened years ago while I was still in KSW.

Beginning to think you guys are more interested in 'stirring the pot' that trying to find out the facts.

[Ricree101]

Before the current "conspiracy theories" get completely out of hand, Master Jay Lee hasn't been active for YEARS. I think he left to go back to school, but not sure. All of that happened years ago while I was still in KSW.

Beginning to think you guys are more interested in 'stirring the pot' that trying to find out the facts.


Of course we're interested in getting the facts. However, given the extreme scarcity of information available to us, is it really surprising that people have turned to conjecture to fill in the gaps. If we actually knew what was going on, it would probably go a long way towards ending this discussion.

[GetNtheGame]

Of course we're interested in getting the facts. However, given the extreme scarcity of information available to us, is it really surprising that people have turned to conjecture to fill in the gaps. If we actually knew what was going on, it would probably go a long way towards ending this discussion.

The only "facts" that anyone seems to know so far are that Master Sims and Bill Page have left the association. Everything else is pretty much a "Bigfoot" theory until somebody talks with somebody who has information instead of speculation. All this is doing as far as I can see is giving the "sideline stonethrowers" something else to blame on Kuk Sa Nym and the "evil" association. :bang: :bang:

I would like to know what is going on as much as anybody. But until SOMEBODY gets some facts, the stonethrower contingent should

A. Get a grip,
B. Get some facts, or
C. Get a life

Also, if anybody knows what happened to Robert Cromer in Columbia he might be able to shed some light on what happened with Master Sims. I'm not sure, but I THINK he was one of Master Sims' students (I know he would always talk to us about "Marlin," so they were at least on a first name basis). Just a thought.

ps. Anybody know of a Kuk Sool group in western North Carolina (around Asheville) -- nothing posted on the association website. Any groups or KSW students adrift like me who just may want to practice?

[TXKukSoolBB]

Everything else is pretty much a "Bigfoot" theory until somebody talks with somebody who has information instead of speculation.


At least Kuk Sool is not on the cover of the National Enquirer !:) I like you and just about everyone else are curious. If you knew, know, or just respect KJN Sims...it is a natural question to ask. I remember when KJN Sims gave me one of my medals at the 2003 World Championship. Since I had only read about him and seen him in demos...it was a pretty cool moment. This year at the Texas Tournament it was Chief Master Lee who gave me my medals (which is pretty cool too!) I understand that this is a forum and open to all opinions/comments and I'm cool and open minded about that. I did not know KJN Sims, nor did I ever have the opportunity to train with him...but from what I have read about him in differt MA articles...I cannot help but feel that if he read this post he would tell us to be quiet and spend that energy training. That is just my take on things.

[GetNtheGame]

At least Kuk Sool is not on the cover of the National Enquirer !:) I like you and just about everyone else are curious. If you knew, know, or just respect KJN Sims...it is a natural question to ask. I remember when KJN Sims gave me one of my medals at the 2003 World Championship. Since I had only read about him and seen him in demos...it was a pretty cool moment. This year at the Texas Tournament it was Chief Master Lee who gave me my medals (which is pretty cool too!) I understand that this is a forum and open to all opinions/comments and I'm cool and open minded about that. I did not know KJN Sims, nor did I ever have the opportunity to train with him...but from what I have read about him in differt MA articles...I cannot help but feel that if he read this post he would tell us to be quiet and spend that energy training. That is just my take on things.


I second that emotion :) :) (apologies to Smokey Robinson) ;)

[Pugil]

The only "facts" that anyone seems to know so far are that Master Sims and Bill Page have left the association. Everything else is pretty much a "Bigfoot" theory until somebody talks with somebody who has information instead of speculation. All this is doing as far as I can see is giving the "sideline stonethrowers" something else to blame on Kuk Sa Nym and the "evil" association. :bang: :bang:

I would like to know what is going on as much as anybody. But until SOMEBODY gets some facts, the stonethrower contingent should

A. Get a grip,
B. Get some facts, or
C. Get a life

Also, if anybody knows what happened to Robert Cromer in Columbia he might be able to shed some light on what happened with Master Sims. I'm not sure, but I THINK he was one of Master Sims' students (I know he would always talk to us about "Marlin," so they were at least on a first name basis). Just a thought.

ps. Anybody know of a Kuk Sool group in western North Carolina (around Asheville) -- nothing posted on the association website. Any groups or KSW students adrift like me who just may want to practice?


I e-mailed an old friend of mine in the States, who has been involved in Kuk Sool since the 1970's, and asked if he could shed any light on this. His reply came through this morning. This is what he said:

"Marlin quit because kuk sa nim won't teach him. Lots of people are leaving to. We are tired of kuk sa nim taking everybody's money and won't teach us."

I saw what direction the WKSA was heading, way back in 1989, which was the main reason I left.

Pugil

[musool]

I e-mailed an old friend of mine in the States, who has been involved in Kuk Sool since the 1970's, and asked if he could shed any light on this. His reply came through this morning. This is what he said:

"Marlin quit because kuk sa nim won't teach him. Lots of people are leaving to. We are tired of kuk sa nim taking everybody's money and won't teach us."

I saw what direction the WKSA was heading, way back in 1989, which was the main reason I left.

Pugil

I've heard (my unnamed source) that instead of being a big fish in a big pond, Master Sims wanted to be a big fish in a small pond of his own making. If Kuk Sa Nym actually refused to teach him something new, there must have been a reason.

BUT obviously, Master Sims was ALWAYS in the spotlight in the Association and I've heard that he has been taught things by KSN that no one else has been taught. He has been privileged to knowledge that none of the rest of us will ever see. Anyone -- especially those students who have stayed in the association after 1989-- would have seen his stature in all Association official functions. Master Sims is an awesome MAist, but what is happening happens all the time in other styles.

THis whole forum has degenerated into political jabs and innuendo. I started reading the posts because I was interested in other people's training experiences. It's been a very long time since anyone has posted anything constructive. I've only posted in defense of Kuk Sa Nym because for awhile it seems like everyone attacked him and no one was defending him. THe punks were unchecked. Now there are some other views being posted. I suppose the people who are behind him have better things to do with their time than joust with punks. It's a waste of time and effort.

There are other sites, other forums with real training information being shared. Those sites have real value.

[IBelieved]

Anyone who stays in the WKSA for any length of time understands that Kuk Sool Won is a monarchy, not a democracy and that if you cannot abide by Grandmaster's decisions, then "the door is that way". Personally, I find this whole sodding affair to be terribly sad. The departure of yet another Master, for whatever reason, is testimony to the continuing decline of the Won. I'm no fan of the Association, but I love the martial art and do not wish to see it harmed.

[baubin2]

I've heard (my unnamed source) that instead of being a big fish in a big pond, Master Sims wanted to be a big fish in a small pond of his own making. If Kuk Sa Nym actually refused to teach him something new, there must have been a reason.

BUT obviously, Master Sims was ALWAYS in the spotlight in the Association and I've heard that he has been taught things by KSN that no one else has been taught. He has been privileged to knowledge that none of the rest of us will ever see. Anyone -- especially those students who have stayed in the association after 1989-- would have seen his stature in all Association official functions. Master Sims is an awesome MAist, but what is happening happens all the time in other styles.

THis whole forum has degenerated into political jabs and innuendo. I started reading the posts because I was interested in other people's training experiences. It's been a very long time since anyone has posted anything constructive. I've only posted in defense of Kuk Sa Nym because for awhile it seems like everyone attacked him and no one was defending him. THe punks were unchecked. Now there are some other views being posted. I suppose the people who are behind him have better things to do with their time than joust with punks. It's a waste of time and effort.

There are other sites, other forums with real training information being shared. Those sites have real value.
So you are saying that talking about or criticisizing the organization is a waste of time and detrimental? That talk about the WKSA has no place on a kuk sool won forum?

[KSWarrior]

I don't think this is about understanding that WKSA is a monarchy. It seems to be that Kuk Sa Nym is not living and running kuk sool by the principles that he says the art is about. To me, that just shows that the majority of you guys must be under 2nd black belts and have yet to figure out the inner workings of this system. I don't know if you all don't know enough about the art to realize that you have not learned everything. Kuk Sa Nym says there are 10,000 techniques in kuk sool. Do you know them . . . do you know anyone who knows 10,000 kuk sool techniques. . .huh? If Master Sims is asking for more information then there must be more out there in Kuk Sa Nym's head. Why else would he ask for it?

If what Pugil source says about KJN Sims is true then how can anyone side with Kuk Sa Nym. If you give up your entire life for one system (over 30 years), travel the world promoting "HIS" art, training through sweat, blood and tears, and follow him blindly and all you ask at the end of the day is that you pour your knowledge into him! What righteous man can refuse a request like that after 30 plus years of devotion!

If this source is true then you all need to think about following a commander in chief who doesn't take care or and support his generals. Master Sims is one of the most knowledgable, skillfull and honorable martial artists world wide. If Kuk Sa Nym is willing to lose him then what does he think about you?

I'm not here to bash Kuk Sa Nym but these are somethings we need to look as kuk sool stylist. One day we may be in Marlin Sims shoes. Keep in mind he is not the first member to leave . . . Infact kuk sool has lost more masters than what have stayed. Maybe when you get to the master level you will see more clearly!!

This is just my opinion. Take if for what you think it is worth!

[KsnMmC-Scotland]

Hey I never heard Kuk Sa Nim or any masters talk about 10,000 techniques ever and I have been involved in Kuk Sool Since 1990. I have trained lots with the likes of Master Simms, Master Ducker, Master Watson - SBN Darren Hart....etc!! I heard them talk about 3,400 odd. Man who needs more techniques am struggling to master the ones I now. It's the daily decrease, hack away at the unessential!! a famous martial artist once said lol I am sure his name was Bruce something lol
peace

[KsnMmC-Scotland]

Hey just though of something...lets say there are 227 soo below black belt rite not including the 5 escape technique Sohn Ppae Ki(escape from wrist grab) so that makes 232. Do them on both sides like your told to practise so you can be equally able on both sides...what does that give you yup 464. See where this is going, so say 3,400 odd that I have heard or mybe its 3,700 can't remeber exactly..3,400 x both sides makes well u get the picture...who really knows only the old masters from korea and Kuk Sa Nim Himself.
Am more into training on what I have and making that work for me
peace

[AZeitung]

Kuk Sa Nim said there were 3,600.

[IBelieved]

I'm surprised that, of the things KSWarrior mentioned, only his remarks about the number of techniques generated any discussion. The exact number of techniques is useful if you're playing Trivial Pursuit-The Kuk Sool Edition, and nothing else.

I guess most of you have never been exposed to the politics of the WKSA, which is a mixed blessing: good in that you are free to simply practice, bad in that when you do finally see it (usually after JyoKyo level), it can be a devastating experience.

[musool]

"IBelieved" : At least you have the balls to get out of something you don't like. I notice your bio is full of ex styles.

"KSWarrior" :You say you love the style but bash at every single chance the man who gives you the opportunity to learn it. And you seem to be claiming to be a higher ranking black belt. Why don't you just quit?! Go do something else. Stop making up things like these 10,000 techniques just to cause trouble. If you have ever attended a WKSA seminar and actually listened to Kuk Sa Nym's talk, you will remember that the core of it is always the same: as a KSW practitioner, you MUST work towards 1)a strong body, 2) a strong mind, and 3) a good heart. KSWarrior -- at the MOST -- you may be able to claim one of those.

[Wolf]

When I started this thread all I really wanted to get out of it was whether anyone KNEW what happened. I didn't anticipate this kind of animosity with the association (thought I knew it was out there) coming to life on this thread. Maybe I was just being naive. Anyway, personally I'd like to see this thread stay about what anyone KNOWS about Master Sims leaving. If you want to continue discussing the flaws in the WKSA could we please start another thread. Thanks.

[Wolf]

ps. Anybody know of a Kuk Sool group in western North Carolina (around Asheville) -- nothing posted on the association website. Any groups or KSW students adrift like me who just may want to practice?

I don't know how far you're willing to drive, but KJN Dan Middleton runs a school in Anderson, SC. It's a little more than 90 miles from Asheville. I drive up there from Athens, GA. He's a really good instructor. I come up tuesday nights for the blackbelt only class, and I'm really happy with it.

[Chuin]

The unofficial reason Sims left was he is starting a new business. (dont know so dont ask). He will not have time for KSW. And I'm guessing he will close his school, to spend more time on the new business.

[KSWarrior]

I think we are wasting our time on this topic lets move one. I'm tired of all this guessing! And you are right there are 3,600 techniques . . . I stand corrected. I asked my instructor. My point still stands . . . does anyone on this chat line know even a 1,000? I thought so!

[AZeitung]

I guess most of you have never been exposed to the politics of the WKSA, which is a mixed blessing: good in that you are free to simply practice, bad in that when you do finally see it (usually after JyoKyo level), it can be a devastating experience.
I think most of us know about it, to some degree. But as for me, I don't really care. If anyone ever starts giving me crap, I'd just as soon switch to Hapkido. Plus, I've got other arts to train in as well. As for now, KSW is one of the best martial arts clubs on campus, and I'll continue to train in it and enjoy it.

[Jay Lee]

I've read all of these posts. A few are suppositions about Marlin Sims, a couple were about me. Most of the posts had to do with a blame game patchwork of guessing. The best way to think about these things is to look at your own lives and the choices that you've made. Sometimes you have big reasons for what you do and sometimes you make choices without any epic reasons being necessary. We are just living our lives. I am always fascinated that people perceive such ownership of their lives. I was taught, a long time ago and in a galaxy far, far away (just joking), that if you own anything it is your death. Thinking that you own your life is an illusion. That sounds like such bs in a sense, too old school, but that was a lesson.

Marlin has his own "reasons" for moving on as did I. All of you seem to respect him and you seem to respect yourselves, even each other a bit. Maybe Marlin Sims has given you enough. Wish him well. From time-to-time you may bump in to him. Make sure to say hello and shake his hand.

[Wolf]

Thank you for your contribution sir. I'm curious (if you don't mind sharing) what is it you do with martial arts and training these days?

[Jay Lee]

I am a university professor in Texas. I teach measurement and evaluation, and statistics. I lecture in motor behavior and sport psychology. After I left KS, I worked at NASA where we studied the effects of microgravity on gait and locomotion in astronauts. My family and I were living in Hollywood, FL (North Miami) for two years just a couple of blocks from the ocean. We moved back to TX a year ago.

I am a certified sport psychology consultant and have worked with Olympic athletes in several sports including fencing, track and field, tae kwon do, soccer, and basketball. I provide a service to martial art schools in the nature of business practices, safety and risk management, etc. I don't teach martial arts to those schools or instructors or provide curriculum training of any kind.

I continue to serve as a consultant and advisor to law enforcement and the military, but that has little or nothing to do with martial arts. My experience in that comes from 4 years in the Marine Corps and training I received from the FBI and others while working for Houston PD for about ten years. Occasionally, I testify as an expert witness in local, state, and federal cour cases.

I practice occasionally for myself. Sometimes, I think about opening a small studio in Nacogdoches, Texas just for children. My children are 7 and 12 so that might be fun. University students want me to teach them KS but I don't really have time in my week to add another thing to do. I drop in to the martial art community to keep up with it, but don't have time to make this a regular practice.

All the best to you.