Kuk Sool Won and Judo

[AZeitung]

I've been doing a lot more Karate over the summer than Judo, so I don't have as much experience with the latter as I'd like to discuss it in depth, but in doing Judo, I've noticed that under the context of Judo, some of Kuk Sool seems to make a lot more sense.

The first thing I'd like to point out is the obvious one - we know, or I think most people are willing to admit, that a lot of the clothing grab techniques were developed specifically for the purpose of defending against Judo. Of course, the joint locking and pressure point principles exist outside of that context, but the way they're applied to clothing grabs is, if you've studied any Judo, quite obviously specifically made to counter that art.

The preferred grip in Judo (for right handed players) seems to be one hand grabbing the right sleeve, and the other twisted inward, grabbing the lapel, in a "get over here" type grip, or like doing an uppercut. This is used so often, than it's no wonder a technique like eui bohk soo 7 (I think. I always get it and 8 confused) would have been developed. It was never a grip that came up much when I did the wrestling/kuk sool based grappling that we typically do in class, but because of the thickness and strength of the judo gi, as opposed to the Kuk Sool doh bohk, this grip is ideal.

Another favorite move for judoka, at least in the two places I practiced, is to extend and lock their elbows, to push you away and keep you at bay. This can make it very difficult to get a good judo throw, at least for someone of my ability, but it puts them in the perfect position for a chicken wing armbar, like ahp eui bohk soo 5, a regular ki bohn soo 6 style arm bar, or any of the 10-12 ahp eui bohk soos. I think either the chicken wing style armbar, or ahp eui bohk soo 10 would be your best bet.

Another thing that Judo has shown me is that some of the techniques that are pawned off as useless from our technique sets aren't actually so useless, because the very same techniques, or similar ones, show up in Judo. The blackbelts who currently run our club seem to have a Brazilian Jiujutsu like philosophy - know a couple simple takedowns, and fight on the ground. Sometimes, the throws that appear in our technique sets are considered too elaborate to do. However, these same techniques are pulled off successfully in Judo, simply because the Judoka practice them in randori.

For example, I'm fairly good at sprawling, so I can avoid most leg takedowns. But by the end of one night of randori, I was getting pretty worn out, and could feel myself getting closer and closer to being thrown by the opposing Judoka's leg picks. Finally, he managed to throw me with kata guruma. What's kata guruma? It's the fireman's carry, like in ahp eui bohk soo 4, or joon geup sohn maek soo 5 (or is it 4? my memory is slipping). Most people in kuk sool would never even consider actually using that throw, but it's used a lot in Judo.

Another favorite throw of Judo, which became one of *my* favorite Judo throws, is ippon seoinage. What's ippon seoinage? Ahp eui bohk soo 6 (actually ippon seoinage uses a slightly different grip, but there are other seoinage throws that use the grip we learned). No one ever gets that throw to a useable level in Kuk Sool, and at least at my school, we tend to think of it as kind of useless - yet, I've pulled it off more than once during randori.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that I think a lot of the grappling that we're taught at my school, either directly or indirectly, from Jan Sa Bum Nim, comes from Judo. I thought I had heard that he had crosstrained in Judo, and after seeing the groundwork in Judo, I find this very believable. What they do on the ground is almost exactly what we do on the ground.

I guess that's about all I had to say. Feel free to add your own comments/experiences/critiques, or ask any questions.

[Wolf]

Good input! As for my own thoughts. I find very few techniques useless in kuk sool. It's just a matter of working them. It takes a lot of practice with fireman's carries and judo type throws to be event remotely effective in a defense situation. Especially considering you want them to more reflex. Obviously it's not as much an issue in judo as you both are adhering to a 1 on 1 ruleset with no weapons, a mat and very specific safetly regulations. I'm not saying these throws wouldn't be useful outside of judo, I'm just saying they're a lot more difficult and most Kuk Sool practitioners probably focus more on the moves that come off faster and easier.

[JSun]

I busted a seoi otoshi on my buddy the other day to great success when we were grappling. The complete look of bewilderment on his face as he realized he was on his back and I gained the mount was priceless :D

I think eui bohk soo 7 entails a double lapel grab and 8 is a single lapel grab...I think...I'm still practicing that set trying to get it cemented in my memory.

Maybe an addititional counter for the extended arms and locked elbows could possibly be something similar to the latter part of sohn monk soo 10? A figure-4 elbow lock with a takedown using the inside elbow striking in the direction of the foot the uki is moving for the leg hook. It's just a scenario that came to mind.

[TXKukSoolBB]

Having never studied judo, I found your post very interesting and informative. Thanks

[baubin2]

I think eui bohk soo 7 entails a double lapel grab and 8 is a single lapel grab...I think...I'm still practicing that set trying to get it cemented in my memory.
You're right :D

[AZeitung]

Maybe an addititional counter for the extended arms and locked elbows could possibly be something similar to the latter part of sohn monk soo 10? A figure-4 elbow lock with a takedown using the inside elbow striking in the direction of the foot the uki is moving for the leg hook. It's just a scenario that came to mind.

Sure, I could see that working. I think it might be slightly more difficult to pull off, because it requires closing the distance that the extended arm is keeping you at, but I'm sure there are situations where that might be what you want to do. On an interesting side not, I saw someone pull of that same arm lock on the ground during randori, rather than the typical armbar that you think of for the ground, where you thrust upward with the hips.

[KSW_KJN]

Kuk Sool Won can trace it's roots back and find a direct connection to Judo, or Yudo in Korea, that many students do not realize. Here's the synopsis:

One of Kuk Sa Nym's teachers was Yong Sul Choi. Kuk Sa Nym states he learned Sah Doh MuSool from him. Yong Sul Choi founded the art known as Korean Hapki Yu Kwon which was later shortened to Korean Hapkido (one of his students was Han Jae Ji who is considered to be the founder of modern Hapkido). Yong Sul Choi received his training in Japan. It was custom at the time for Korean students to take Japanese names when they were in Japan. It is suspected that he took the name Tatsujutsu Yoshida, although some sources have stated it may have been Yoshida Asao. Yong Sul Choi was taught Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jitsu, an art founded by Shinka Saburo Yoshimitsu. Yong Sul Choi's teacher was Takeda Sokaku, who...wait for it...was the teacher of Morihei Ushiba, the founder of Aikido. Now Ju Jitsu traces it's roots back to a Korean (hmmm...thought that was Japanese?). It was founded by a Silla Hwarang warrior family who immigrated to Japan. Samrang Silla, aka Saburo Silna, founded the art. Then we trace the Ju Jitsu line over to Jigoro Kanoin, the founder of Judo. (kinda like playing that movie star matching game, eh?).

So, with a foundation in Ju Jitsu, you can see why many things in Judo/Yudo would be similar. Also, consider that Yudo was taught all over Korea during the Japanese occupation and was a commonly accepted practice for many young practicioners of martial arts. You will see a Yudo background in many of the old senior korean KSW masters.

[AZeitung]

Kuk Sool Won can trace it's roots back and find a direct connection to Judo, or Yudo in Korea, that many students do not realize. Here's the synopsis:

One of Kuk Sa Nym's teachers was Yong Sul Choi. Kuk Sa Nym states he learned Sah Doh MuSool from him. Yong Sul Choi founded the art known as Korean Hapki Yu Kwon which was later shortened to Korean Hapkido (one of his students was Han Jae Ji who is considered to be the founder of modern Hapkido). Yong Sul Choi received his training in Japan. It was custom at the time for Korean students to take Japanese names when they were in Japan. It is suspected that he took the name Tatsujutsu Yoshida, although some sources have stated it may have been Yoshida Asao. Yong Sul Choi was taught Daito Ryu Aiki Ju Jitsu, an art founded by Shinka Saburo Yoshimitsu. Yong Sul Choi's teacher was Takeda Sokaku, who...wait for it...was Morihei Ushiba, the founder of Aikido.


Woah, woah woah. . . slow down here. Takeda Sokaku was *not* Morihei Ushiba. Morihei Ushiba was one of Takeda's student's.

An interesting thing to point out, also, is that Kuk Sa Nim (In Hyuk Suh) now denies ever having studied with GM Choi (I am aware that this was not always the case).

Speaking of which, the connection between GM Choi and Takeda Sokaku is tenuous at best. It's something that's very hotly debated in Hapkido circles. Takeda was very good at keeping records and very particular about who he tought. He made sure that every name of every person he tought was recorded. Choi's name does not appear in any of his records, and none of Takeda's family remembers him, which they certainly would if he was an adopted son, like he claimed.

There doesn't seem to be any doubt that Choi learned Daito Ryu. The question is, who did he really learn it from.

Also, for the record, Choi called his art Dae Dong Ryu Hapki Yoo Sool, which is the Korean phoneticization of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. He always admited that it was a Japanese art.


Now Ju Jitsu traces it's roots back to a Korean (hmmm...thought that was Japanese?).

That is complete and total BS that the Koreans made up, more or less because they hate the Japanese. I think Matt Bernius, and maybe even Sokklab might be two of the best qualified people to discuss that with on this forum.


It was founded by a Silla Hwarang warrior family who immigrated to Japan. Samrang Silla, aka Saburo Silna, founded the art. Then we trace the Ju Jitsu line over to Jigoro Kanoin, the founder of Judo. (kinda like playing that movie star matching game, eh?).

Jiguro Kano didn't study Daito Ryu. In fact he didn't study any type of Aikijujutsu. He studied a completely different form of Jujutsu, I think it was Tenshin-Ryu, but I could be wrong (I know it wasn't daito ryu akijujutsu).

[KSW_KJN]

Woah, woah woah. . . slow down here. Takeda Sokaku was *not* Morihei Ushiba. Morihei Ushiba was one of Takeda's student's.


True. I meant to say he was Ushiba's teacher. Typing too fast. I'll correct that. ;)


An interesting thing to point out, also, is that Kuk Sa Nim (In Hyuk Suh) now denies ever having studied with GM Choi (I am aware that this was not always the case).

This is interesting. There are too many things out there that disputes this statement.


Speaking of which, the connection between GM Choi and Takeda Sokaku is tenuous at best. It's something that's very hotly debated in Hapkido circles. Takeda was very good at keeping records and very particular about who he tought. He made sure that every name of every person he tought was recorded. Choi's name does not appear in any of his records, and none of Takeda's family remembers him, which they certainly would if he was an adopted son, like he claimed.

I'm not sure about the adopted son thing, but the tie in between the two is fairly well recognized by many of Choi's senior students. It tends to be 2nd and 3rd generation students who I typically see deny this connection. I'd be interested to see more conversations on this.

There doesn't seem to be any doubt that Choi learned Daito Ryu. The question is, who did he really learn it from.

Also, for the record, Choi called his art Dae Dong Ryu Hapki Yoo Sool, which is the Korean phoneticization of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. He always admited that it was a Japanese art.

Interesting to note. Thank you!

That is complete and total BS that the Koreans made up, more or less because they hate the Japanese. I think Matt Bernius, and maybe even Sokklab might be two of the best qualified people to discuss that with on this forum.

I'd be interested in hearing the arguments against this. It wouldn't surprise me if there was BS on both sides of that fence.


Jiguro Kano didn't study Daito Ryu. In fact he didn't study any type of Aikijujutsu. He studied a completely different form of Jujutsu, I think it was Tenshin-Ryu, but I could be wrong (I know it wasn't daito ryu akijujutsu).

I didn't state that Jiguro Kano studied Daito Ryu. I stated that you can trace Ju Jitsu back to its founder, Saburo Silna, and down from there to Jiguro Kano. All of the various Ju Jitsu's have a common ancestor.

Hope that clarifies things a bit. Sorry for any miscommunication. I'd like to see other responses to this. I am very curious about this topic.

[AZeitung]

This is interesting. There are too many things out there that disputes this statement.

I read a recent direct quote from Suh that said (paraphrasing) "Choi tought a Japanese art. I never studied under him. My art is Korean". He may have changed his story again, though, for all I know.


I'm not sure about the adopted son thing, but the tie in between the two is fairly well recognized by many of Choi's senior students. It tends to be 2nd and 3rd generation students who I typically see deny this connection. I'd be interested to see more conversations on this.

Indeed. And there's no doubt that he claimed to have learned from Takeda Sokaku, but if you hop on over to the Hapkido forum I'm sure they'll tell you that there is quite a bit of suspicion cast on his claim. If you do a bit of digging, you'll find that there's no historical evidence to back up this claim. And people have been searching.


I'd be interested in hearing the arguments against this. It wouldn't surprise me if there was BS on both sides of that fence.

Well for one, and I suggest talking to Matt Bernius about this, since he seems to know a lot more about the subject than I do, the Hwarang Warriors were not what Kuk Sool, or what some modern day Koreans claim that they were. They were more a class of nobility than warriors. True, they did have some combat training, the same that a European prince might have had, but it was not a large part of their discipline. Empty handed combat would have comprised almost none of their training. What little they got was likely in military strategy and some weapons.

Considering the trend of Korean martial arts to embellish their heritages, it isn't surprising that they would want to take credit for Jujutsu.


I didn't state that Jiguro Kano studied Daito Ryu. I stated that you can trace Ju Jitsu back to its founder, Saburo Silna, and down from there to Jiguro Kano. All of the various Ju Jitsu's have a common ancestor.


While it might be true that all forms of jujutsu share a common ancestor, Daito Ryu and Judo are about as different as you can get. Judo - no joint locks (except for a few on the ground), Daito Ryu - primarily joint locks, Judo - a *lot* of randori, Daito Ryu - very little randori, Dait Ryu - no groundwork (I think), Judo - groundwork, and so on Daito Ryu - emphasizes the idea of Aiki (like qi, or ki, kind of), Judo - no aiki. Different forms of jujutsu can have very little similarity between them, aside from all being grappling arts.

Also, you should be aware that the Daito Ryu lineage isn't really verifiable before Sokaku (or possibly a generation before).

[KSW_KJN]

Very interesting post AZeitung. Good information all around.