USSD vs VILLARIS

[flyingleopard]

Has Anybody Trained With Theses Guys Before? And What Was Your Experience With Them?

[octopic]

I've trained at multiple Villari schools, and I've worked out with some USSD folks in the past. With Villari's I've had almost universally good experiences. With USSD it has been mixed.

[flyingleopard]

Your experiences with ussd were mixed, How so?

[Satori81]

I think this has been explained a lot..which is good, since USSD is a HUGE virus-like franchise that threatens to consume and destroy many small, well-intentioned martial arts schools.

My opinion is that Shaolin Kempo is an interesting, eclectic style that needs to focus less on presenting the "Ancient Shaolin-ness" of their art and more on the fact that it is a modern martial art with roots in some amazing but MODERN martial artists in America. The schools I've been to seem to want to pretend that they're teaching some form of traditional Kung Fu...even though they're wearing Karate Gi's and use titles like Sensei and Shodan.

I'm soiled on USSD, as I find that they charge far too much and allow those ranked at shodan or nidan to be a "Chief Instructors". They stress the long term contract, charge a lot for every test, charge too much for tournaments, and are big on programs like "The Black Belt Club". I actually found an instructor I REALLY liked, but I had to quit because he WAS FORCED to charge too much for class (we actually talked about this quite often, as he had to get a secondary job to pay bills, and was threatened with termination if he charged less than around $120 a month)! Apparently the conglomerate of USSD has HUGE franchise fees, and that of the $200 a month or so you pay, half or more (at least $100 or so) goes in the pockets of the overweight "heads" of the system.

Just my opinion, and I will continue to check out USSD schools in the hope that I can find one not motivated by my green.

Never been to a Villari school.

May you achieve
Satori

[octopic]

My opinion is that Shaolin Kempo is an interesting, eclectic style that needs to focus less on presenting the "Ancient Shaolin-ness" of their art and more on the fact that it is a modern martial art with roots in some amazing but MODERN martial artists in America. The schools I've been to seem to want to pretend that they're teaching some form of traditional Kung Fu...even though they're wearing Karate Gi's and use titles like Sensei and Shodan.



What's interesting is that Shaolin Kempo does have Kung Fu influences, but it is the part of the system that disappears first when it is watered down. The Shaolin Kempo schools that I've been a part of have never tried to calim that the art that they were teaching had anything more than Kung Fu influences in it.

I don't doubt what you've seen, but it does speak to the marketing techniques of certain schools out there.

Satori, where in CA do you live? There are a bunch of non-USSD Shaolin Kempo schools in CA, some of which have excellent instructors.

[Satori81]

I'm in Southern California, San Diego area. Solana Beach/Del Mar area, to be exact. I started with the Vista (north county) location under Craig Earich, but he had to close up shop for one reason or another. He was great, as he only charged about $70 a month and never pressured us to pay for anything we didn't want to.

Now the Vista location is run by a guy in his 20s with a whopping 7 years experience, who immediately tried to powerclose me into a huge money-sucking contract.

I trained with Craig Joyner at the Encinitas location for about a year or so, but the prices really began to eat at my budget. He tried to work with me fund-wise, but there was little he could do if I simply wasn't a rich soccer mom. Really nice guy, but he's working for the wrong company.

I contacted the "Villari" headquarters school in Poway and spoke with the rather young 5th dan chief instructor, but their prices and the drive was a bit much for me. If I'm going to pay over $100 a month, I want to learn from someone who is over 30. Now, I'm not saying the brothers over in Poway aren't amazing instructors...I'm sure they are. But it does me no good to sit in an hour of traffic, wasting gas money only to shell out more money for a class.

I'd be stoked if you had information on less money driven SKK instructors in my area.

May you achieve
Satori

[hunnysan]

around my area there was one..and only one Shaolin Kenpo Karate around..but unfortunately he also had to close shop..which sux..I see a whole lot of USSD schools though..and none of them seem to be closing up shop...There has to be something bout them that families seem to generate towards, right?? or else they wouldn't be this big, right? I wonder what it is parents like so much to sign up there kids there, or even adults who go there, do they not know that a couple of blocks around them is a decent maybe a little smaller, but much cheaper and better school?

DJ Hunny

[KenpoDavid]

You guys could look into Karazenpo or Kajukenbo. They are very close to SKK of course: Emperado->Gascon->Pesare->Cerio->Villari

Check out http://www.kgs-hk3.com/ - I've met the head instructor here he is great!

and

http://www.karazenpogoshinjutsu.com/index.html

and

http://www.kajukenbo.org/schools/index.asp#CA

[octopic]

I'm in Southern California, San Diego area. Solana Beach/Del Mar area, to be exact. I started with the Vista (north county) location under Craig Earich, but he had to close up shop for one reason or another. He was great, as he only charged about $70 a month and never pressured us to pay for anything we didn't want to.


Unfortunately, I don't really know anyone in the San Diego area. If you were in LA or the bay area...


I contacted the "Villari" headquarters school in Poway and spoke with the rather young 5th dan chief instructor, but their prices and the drive was a bit much for me. If I'm going to pay over $100 a month, I want to learn from someone who is over 30. Now, I'm not saying the brothers over in Poway aren't amazing instructors...I'm sure they are. But it does me no good to sit in an hour of traffic, wasting gas money only to shell out more money for a class.


I don't know the instructors there. To be perfectly honest, I've heard some mixed reviews about that particular school, but that's all third or fourth hand information.

[flyingleopard]

Is that the school the brothers took over when they were 12?

[slowmo]

i trained at USSD and learned a ton because i got lucky and had a good instructor but it was more my instructor and not the school/style, the school/style was pretty lame and clearly unauthentic martial arts

[flyingleopard]

i trained at USSD and learned a ton because i got lucky and had a good instructor but it was more my instructor and not the school/style, the school/style was pretty lame and clearly unauthentic martial arts
yes know one where the material comes from after black.

[Jet Jaguar]

Okay, I'm reading this thread and I have a lot of thoughts going through my head.

First I hate the Mc Dojos, I was an avid disliker of Vallari's schools.. but honestly my opinion was formed from what others have told me. I have yet to experience it myself.

USSD: I met Stephen Demasco, he came into a dealership I was working at... a Bentley Dealership. He was turning in a recently purchased Hummer because he felt it was just too big. Does this guy have money? You bet he does.

My question to the forum is growing a large chain of schools really bad? Everyone want's to be successful. Wealth, Fame, Fortune is a goal of the majority of people.

Contracts: I've always seen contracts as a good thing. Contracts are good business sense. I've seen good martial arts schools ruined because of bad business sense. A lot of good martial artists are flawed in the sense that they have a heart that's "too" giving. A contract means that this sensei or sifu has good business sense and makes me feel that this school isn't going to go out of business.

Price: What you want and what you can afford is always going to be a question in anything in life. Why do some dojo's charge $50 and some $120? The difference is overhead, what expenses they have going out. Remember that the sifu / sensei has to: pay his own bills, support his own family, pay the bills for the school, pay the rent for the school, purchase equipment, insurance, pay dues to a federation, and in some cases, the instructor has to pay another instructor so he can continue learning. If you see a dojo in a nice strip mall, it's most likely going to cost more than the master who teaches above a chinese resturant.. where the entrance is in a disgusting side alley.

Shaolin Kempo Karate: Adimitedly I don't know a whole lot about this art. To me it's shaolin, japanese style. I study Lohan Chuan, a traditional Shaolin art. I'm not knocking Kempo, the Japanese have done marvelous jobs in their art. But also I think a lot of Japanese arts originated in China, Aikido and Chin-na have a lot similar locks.

Choosing your school: I go to a school, I watch the instructor, I watch the students, I see how enthusiastic the school is, I try to guage the business sense of the individual. I look at the price and if it's something I can afford, I take it. I don't have a loyalty to any style, I've studied TKD, Judo, Kung Fu and Aikido. But I choose the school based upon the above and not the style.

Anyone agree or disagree?

[Pacificshore]

Okay, I'm reading this thread and I have a lot of thoughts going through my head.

First I hate the Mc Dojos, I was an avid disliker of Vallari's schools.. but honestly my opinion was formed from what others have told me. I have yet to experience it myself.

USSD: I met Stephen Demasco, he came into a dealership I was working at... a Bentley Dealership. He was turning in a recently purchased Hummer because he felt it was just too big. Does this guy have money? You bet he does.

My question to the forum is growing a large chain of schools really bad? Everyone want's to be successful. Wealth, Fame, Fortune is a goal of the majority of people.

Contracts: I've always seen contracts as a good thing. Contracts are good business sense. I've seen good martial arts schools ruined because of bad business sense. A lot of good martial artists are flawed in the sense that they have a heart that's "too" giving. A contract means that this sensei or sifu has good business sense and makes me feel that this school isn't going to go out of business.

Price: What you want and what you can afford is always going to be a question in anything in life. Why do some dojo's charge $50 and some $120? The difference is overhead, what expenses they have going out. Remember that the sifu / sensei has to: pay his own bills, support his own family, pay the bills for the school, pay the rent for the school, purchase equipment, insurance, pay dues to a federation, and in some cases, the instructor has to pay another instructor so he can continue learning. If you see a dojo in a nice strip mall, it's most likely going to cost more than the master who teaches above a chinese resturant.. where the entrance is in a disgusting side alley.

Shaolin Kempo Karate: Adimitedly I don't know a whole lot about this art. To me it's shaolin, japanese style. I study Lohan Chuan, a traditional Shaolin art. I'm not knocking Kempo, the Japanese have done marvelous jobs in their art. But also I think a lot of Japanese arts originated in China, Aikido and Chin-na have a lot similar locks.

Choosing your school: I go to a school, I watch the instructor, I watch the students, I see how enthusiastic the school is, I try to guage the business sense of the individual. I look at the price and if it's something I can afford, I take it. I don't have a loyalty to any style, I've studied TKD, Judo, Kung Fu and Aikido. But I choose the school based upon the above and not the style.

Anyone agree or disagree?
A very well thought out and well written post in my opinion. You are someone who definitely knows/understands the "business" side to operating a commercial dojo. You are also correct in that the final decision making comes from you and you alone, not from coming onto the forum and asking others from miles away if you should or shouldn't try out a particular system. Even if it's advice regarding USSD or any other chain of MA....you still need to find out for yourself and not necessarily rely on others negative experiences as an end-all decision. Cost is always gonna be a factor, but as you say, either you can or can't afford it. Paying less $$ dosen't always guarentee better training.

[Satori81]

I essentially agree with everything Jaguar posted. Nice post.

It it wrong to make a bunch of money teaching martial arts?


I guess it depends, really. I judge based upon the motive and the intention of the person running the school. Ultimately, I feel that when people are motivated by MONEY, then they typically lose sight of what they are doing to EARN said money...it essentially becomes a bottom line.

So what if his students are dominating tournaments? So what if he has several handicapped students? So what if he's been directly involved in turning around troubled teenagers?

When the goal is making money, it boils down to how much of it is made at the end of the day...and with something as pure as martial arts, I PERSONALLY feel this isn't what it should be about. When it is, I can't help but think the teaching will suffer accordingly.

Then again, I've found that some places are successful without any direct effort. Their schools are professional, their classes are packed, they have a host of competent instructors, a variety of programs, several students who train for free in exchange for various services...AND their prices are very reasonable WHILE their teaching remains top notch.

Unfortunately, these places tend to be rather rare.

You are also correct in stating "I'm not quite sure what Kempo is...", as I don't believe anyone really knows where it came from. It definately "Moves" somewhere between JMA and CMA, the uniforms are JMA, the forms (early ones) are all modified Pinans/Heians... To be honest, I rather enjoy the mystique that Kempo has, as ultimately the style works.

May you achieve
Satori

[flyingleopard]

A very well thought out and well written post in my opinion. You are someone who definitely knows/understands the "business" side to operating a commercial dojo. You are also correct in that the final decision making comes from you and you alone, not from coming onto the forum and asking others from miles away if you should or shouldn't try out a particular system. Even if it's advice regarding USSD or any other chain of MA....you still need to find out for yourself and not necessarily rely on others negative experiences as an end-all decision. Cost is always gonna be a factor, but as you say, either you can or can't afford it. Paying less $$ dosen't always guarentee better training.
Yes cost are a factor but I am not going to pay a ussd instructor 1-2 degree bb or red belt a year contract for 175 a month when they have just learned the material themselfs.
There are 3,4,5, and 6th degrees with 10 to 20 years experience that will charge me the same amount that know their stuff better than a 2year bb. just my opinion

[Jet Jaguar]

Yes cost are a factor but I am not going to pay a ussd instructor 1-2 degree bb or red belt a year contract for 175 a month when they have just learned the material themselfs.
There are 3,4,5, and 6th degrees with 10 to 20 years experience that will charge me the same amount that know their stuff better than a 2year bb. just my opinion

Then you are in a good area, with a wide choice of instructors. Some people are very limited on where they can train. I grew up in Newport Rhode Island, the first two Karate schools landed on the island when I was 16. (there were YMCA classes, but lets not get into that)

For the reference of Money being a motivator. Money is one of the ultimate motivators. I wan't to see my Sifu be successful, to be able to buy his own land and build a school and property he owns. Plus, the more you make, the more you can give. Remember, money isn't the root of all evil, the love of money is. Money is a tool, amass it's wealth and you can provide for your family, children and even your childrens children. You can help people, donate to charity and releive yourself of financial burdens that may cause you stress. You'll even be able to take that $200 a month martial arts class. Money is a motivator, but the end result is security and peace. I find it's sad that most people that achieve financial independance and have wealth, squander and waste it. Stephen Demasco was a nice guy, I showed him my sword and he showed me a kata in the parking lot. I still have the guys cell phone number. But being in a place where people spent $250,000 for a car that won't run as well as a Honda Accord, was an enlightening experience.

This isn't the farmlands of Japan or China where you find the master living a humble life with no need for cash. The instructors and masters deserve to live also.

I wouldn't train in a school operated by a redbelt, or someone with a few years expereince. But if I was living back in Newport and I found him, then I would by lack of choice alone.

I like this forum for the opportunity to learn, educate and exchange ideas, views and opinions. If the internet / forums were around in the 70's, I don't think there would be a mc Dojo around, but perhaps high quality chains of schools.

[flyingleopard]

I have heard a lot of good things about Demasco I've heard from friends not so good about mattera. My friend said mattera takes care of his district managers( look at their cars) under pays and over works his chief instructors. I 've heard mixed about VILLARIS but overall you have more freedom and better training and can set your own hours if you own the dojo.USSD you cant own your dojo 100% any more and it cost around $125,000............

[Jet Jaguar]

I'm tempted to call Demasco and ask him the following questions:

1. What is the exact origin of Kempo?
2. If you are the "embassador" to the shaolin temple, why do you stick to the japanese culture for instruction of their art? (Gi's etc..)
3. How is your business set up? Can I see your business plan book? What are your profits? Do you plan an IPO?

Can anyone here answer those? Got any other questions for Demasco if I ring him?

[Satori81]

How are Chief Instructors paid? What is the MINIMUM amount of money they can charge?

Do his instructors have insurance or other benefits?

If every Kenpo guy knows the true origins of Kenpo (i.e. MITOSE and not some monk), then why does USSD throw around the "Shaolin-ness" like it's nobodies business?

[KenpoDavid]

I'm tempted to call Demasco and ask him the following questions:

1. What is the exact origin of Kempo?
2. If you are the "embassador" to the shaolin temple, why do you stick to the japanese culture for instruction of their art? (Gi's etc..)
3. How is your business set up? Can I see your business plan book? What are your profits? Do you plan an IPO?

Can anyone here answer those? Got any other questions for Demasco if I ring him?

And why do you think you would even talk to one of his assistants?

When you get off the phone with him please call Bill Gates and ask him why windows has so many security holes.

Please give in to the temptation and let us know how it goes. The insulation around him says as much as your questions.

[Jet Jaguar]

And why do you think you would even talk to one of his assistants?

When you get off the phone with him please call Bill Gates and ask him why windows has so many security holes.

Please give in to the temptation and let us know how it goes. The insulation around him says as much as your questions.

I have his cell phone number. As long as he hasn't changed cell phone providers in the past year and a half, I can call him. I can't promise he'll answer.

I'm sorry, I don't have Bill Gates' cell phone number, but If I meet him, I'll be sure to address that question for you.

Besides, I think with enough creativity anyone can reach Demasco.. just call and say you'd like to do an interview for a magazine. His ego will return your call.

[flyingleopard]

How are Chief Instructors paid? What is the MINIMUM amount of money they can charge?

Do his instructors have insurance or other benefits?

If every Kenpo guy knows the true origins of Kenpo (i.e. MITOSE and not some monk), then why does USSD throw around the "Shaolin-ness" like it's nobodies business?
MY friend told me they are paid 250 to 350 a week and no taxes taken out.
Now this may just be his area of schools I dont know if they whole company is run like that?
HE told me no insurance for instructors because they are 1099s does anybody know if this true?

[KenpoDavid]

Besides, I think with enough creativity anyone can reach Demasco.. just call and say you'd like to do an interview for a magazine. His ego will return your call.

ROFL I bet!!!! :)

[flyingleopard]

Too bad damasco stayed with them he should have gone on his own he has way more knowledge then mattera in my opinion. :bang:

[fightingninja2]

How are Chief Instructors paid? What is the MINIMUM amount of money they can charge?

Do his instructors have insurance or other benefits?

If every Kenpo guy knows the true origins of Kenpo (i.e. MITOSE and not some monk), then why does USSD throw around the "Shaolin-ness" like it's nobodies business?

The chief instructors are paid by 1099's no taxes taken out and set hours!!!12:00-9:00pm

No benefits or insurance.

You can't evan own your dojo ether.

[fightingninja2]

Too bad damasco stayed with them he should have gone on his own he has way more knowledge then mattera in my opinion. :bang:

Damasco should have left them a long time ago. He was never evan promoted by mattera and he has way more knowledge or else why was he promotted by other masters?

[kickingfist]

If you have set hours isn't that illegal for 1099s?

[kempojosh]

who is demasco and mattera?

[octopic]

If you have set hours isn't that illegal for 1099s?


Yes, that would make you a defacto employee and you would be able to go after your employer for half of your social security and medicare taxes. However, most people don't know that, and even if they do, they don't bother to complain.

[octopic]

who is demasco and mattera?

They're the two people who broke off from Villari's to start USSD. I believe that they were both 7th degrees when the broke off.

[kempojosh]

They're the two people who broke off from Villari's to start USSD. I believe that they were both 7th degrees when the broke off.


without starting another mudslinging session, is there somewhere i can get the backstory of split.

[DAnjo]

without starting another mudslinging session, is there somewhere i can get the backstory of split.

Okay, without the mudslinging: Matterra was a purple belt with Cerio when Villari left him. One of the things that Villari did was skip Mattera from Purple to green belt if he came with him. Mattera got all of his rank up to 7th degree from Villari and was his right hand man. In 1988, Mattera apparently wanted to run his own show and split with Villari and took a lot of other black belts with him. He revived Villari's old name of USSD and started his own thing on the West Coast. In 1993, East Coast Villari man Steve Demasco, who was a 7th degree with Villari, left Villari and joined forces with Mattera running the East Coast schools.

[kickingfist]

They're the two people who broke off from Villari's to start USSD. I believe that they were both 7th degrees when the broke off.

Scoot woods a 5th dan left with mattera and left a few years later and went back to villaris for a little while and picked up a 7th dan from villari then went on his own.
Paul taylor was a 4th or 5th when he left with mattera now he is a 8th.

[kickingfist]

from Villari and was his right hand man.


I thought fred bagley was villaris right hand man?
He was an 8th degree with villari when mattera left and was on the rank certifcates as senior instructor.

[Joe V.]

from Villari and was his right hand man.


I thought fred bagley was villaris right hand man?
He was an 8th degree with villari when mattera left and was on the rank certifcates as senior instructor.

You are correct, Master Bagley was indeed a Hachidan when he broke off with Prof. Nohelty and Prof. Bryant. and From what I understand Master Bagley was considered GM Villari's highest ranking (most able) student at the time.

[Red J]

What is interesting is that some claim that they were in the Villari umbrella while others don't. If you basically received first through seventh with Villari, why not claim it and not make it look like you had been training with someone else. It just makes it look like sour grapes when you cut out the majority of your lineage, especially when many people know better. In the case of USSD and Master's Self Defense, both organizations make no mention of this on their websites while Cal Carozzi, Kempokan, and Ingargiola's Shaolin Self Defense Centers do.

(If I am wrong about any of these organizations and their current stances, please feel free to correct).

[DAnjo]

You are correct, Master Bagley was indeed a Hachidan when he broke off with Prof. Nohelty and Prof. Bryant. and From what I understand Master Bagley was considered GM Villari's highest ranking (most able) student at the time.

Bagley was Villari's highest ranking student, but Mattera was more into helping Villari run the opperation is my understanding. Anyways, that's what I have been told.

[DAnjo]

What is interesting is that some claim that they were in the Villari umbrella while others don't. If you basically received first through seventh with Villari, why not claim it and not make it look like you had been training with someone else. It just makes it look like sour grapes when you cut out the majority of your lineage, especially when many people know better. In the case of USSD and Master's Self Defense, both organizations make no mention of this on their websites while Cal Carozzi, Kempokan, and Ingargiola's Shaolin Self Defense Centers do.

(If I am wrong about any of these organizations and their current stances, please feel free to correct).


I agree with you. It just makes him look sleazy to cut Villari out and Claim that Cerio was his instructor.

[Joe V.]

In the case of USSD and Master's Self Defense, both organizations make no mention of this on their websites while Cal Carozzi, Kempokan, and Ingargiola's Shaolin Self Defense Centers do.

(If I am wrong about any of these organizations and their current stances, please feel free to correct).
I am with Masters Self Defense. My Instructors are Master Jody Mullaney and Prof. Nohelty directly.
Prof. Nohelty never denies his lineage of GM Villari. I have heard him state this openly and in public. He also recognizes Prof. Cerio as his Instructor, as well as, GM Pesare. Who awarded the title of Prof. and Hachidan ranking to both Prof. Nohelty and Prof. Bryant.
I do agree though, the Villaris part of the lineage has always been omitted from the family tree as long as I have been with them (1996). The break from GM Master Villari is very definite on their website... He is nowhere to be found. It never really bothered me because everyone in the Org is always very open about the "Villari Connection". The only place I saw the break was on the family trees in the student manuals and the website.
JoeV.

[FightingMonk2k3]

i've had a great experience with the Villari's version of Shaolinkempo. it gave me a strong background in martial arts. if i was still w/ his version of shaolinkempo, i'd be a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt by now b4 quitting. i had to quit due to the fact that i moved to northern CA from ME. i had started my 5th year, summer of 2000; and i was at my 2nd degree brown belt b4 i quit.

i did talk to the brothers in Poway (only because i'll be at San Diego State in the fall) and they sounded like a good shot for me. but i don't know if i'm going to sign up w/ them bcuz of my exposure to Sheng Hun Kung Fu. i'm being trained a lot more and a lot more effeciently w/ it.

[kickingfist]

The poway masters look like they have a lot of knowledge from their web site of the martial arts and a mixed martial arts background is better then 1.

[KenpoDavid]

I am with Masters Self Defense. My Instructors are Master Jody Mullaney and Prof. Nohelty directly.
Prof. Nohelty never denies his lineage of GM Villari. I have heard him state this openly and in public. He also recognizes Prof. Cerio as his Instructor, as well as, GM Pesare. Who awarded the title of Prof. and Hachidan ranking to both Prof. Nohelty and Prof. Bryant.
I do agree though, the Villaris part of the lineage has always been omitted from the family tree as long as I have been with them (1996). The break from GM Master Villari is very definite on their website... He is nowhere to be found. It never really bothered me because everyone in the Org is always very open about the "Villari Connection". The only place I saw the break was on the family trees in the student manuals and the website.
JoeV.

So it's not on their web site, not in the manuals, and not in the family tree; then how are they "very open about it"???

I would think "very open" would include having it on your web site and in your published family tree. "Somewhat open" or just "open" might mean, "not published but if you ask I will tell you". "Not at all open" might mean, "I won't even answer your questions".

It might be harsh to call this deception by omission...

[kickingfist]

USSD is the same way KEMPO DAVID.

The manuals say nick cerio as mattera's teacher and he received 8th degree and is currently a 9th(my manual is before he went to china to buy I meen earn his 10th)
It says nothing of villari and no mention of where he got his 9th.

[KenpoDavid]

Doctoring lineage is a Hawaiian Kempo tradition it seems. :o

[Joe V.]

So it's not on their web site, not in the manuals, and not in the family tree; then how are they "very open about it"???

I would think "very open" would include having it on your web site and in your published family tree. "Somewhat open" or just "open" might mean, "not published but if you ask I will tell you". "Not at all open" might mean, "I won't even answer your questions".

It might be harsh to call this deception by omission...

I would say deception by omission is: saying you are ranked by someone whom has severed all ties and stripped you of that rank.

Like I said, if you ask them they are very open and freely admit their association with GM. Villari, and Prof. Cerio and GM. Pesare.
What is not open about that? I would also note that Prof. Bryant and Prof. Nohelty are still (last I checked ) on the Kempo/Kenpo FAQ under GM. Villari's tree. My point is: unlike Geary, even after they split from the FVSSD Org. they were not stripped of their rank... BY ANY OF THEIR INSTRUCTORS... Additionally, there is no information posted that would be disrespectful of GM. Villari and his Org. HMMMM. One more thing... Both Prof. Bryant and Prof. Nohelty have actually studied under Prof. Cerio and GM. Pesare. They both have followed their lineage right back to GM. Pesare. They went to classes, they incorporated the material they learned from them in to their curriculum. They were awarded their ranks after they had proven their abilities and refined their art of Kenpo Karate... You can ask any questions to them directly via the Masters site.
JoeV.

[kempojosh]

I would say deception by omission is: saying you are ranked by someone whom has severed all ties and stripped you of that rank.

Like I said, if you ask them they are very open and freely admit their association with GM. Villari, and Prof. Cerio and GM. Pesare.
What is not open about that? I would also note that Prof. Bryant and Prof. Nohelty are still (last I checked ) on the Kempo/Kenpo FAQ under GM. Villari's tree. My point is: unlike Geary, even after they split from the FVSSD Org. they were not stripped of their rank... BY ANY OF THEIR INSTRUCTORS... Additionally, there is no information posted that would be disrespectful of GM. Villari and his Org. HMMMM. One more thing... Both Prof. Bryant and Prof. Nohelty have actually studied under Prof. Cerio and GM. Pesare. They both have followed their lineage right back to GM. Pesare. They went to classes, they incorporated the material they learned from them in to their curriculum. They were awarded their ranks after they had proven their abilities and refined their art of Kenpo Karate... You can ask any questions to them directly via the Masters site.
JoeV.

i thought that Geary was actually stripped of the rank by a man with the name of John James (i believe that is the right name). and this happened after Professor Ceiro passed away. I beleive that this James person took over Ceiro's kempo.

[Joe V.]

i thought that Geary was actually stripped of the rank by a man with the name of John James (i believe that is the right name). and this happened after Professor Ceiro passed away. I beleive that this James person took over Ceiro's kempo.
That is not what I heard. You can e-mail Shihan James if you want. Go to Prof. Cerio's site and you can find his e-mail info there.

[kempojosh]

That is not what I heard. You can e-mail Shihan James if you want. Go to Prof. Cerio's site and you can find his e-mail info there.

i asked both Shihan James and Professor Geary. Shihan James said that what happened between Nick Ceiro and Christopher Geary is in the past.

[Joe V.]

i asked both Shihan James and Professor Geary. Shihan James said that what happened between Nick Ceiro and Christopher Geary is in the past.
I respect Shihan James he is an honorable man. What did Geary have to say about it?

[kempojosh]

I respect Shihan James he is an honorable man. What did Geary have to say about it?

Professor Geary said that John James is the one that stripped him of the rank. I think that the point that Shihan James was trying to make was since it's in the past, that there is no reason to keep dwelling on it.

[KenpoDavid]

John James has been known to intentionally spread lies about Christopher Geary. PM me Joe of you want to know who can verify that. He can't be trusted when it comes to this topic. NCK has an Omaha school (run by a guy who got his Shodan from Prof. Geary and has since been distance-learning NCK) so he has a financial interest in damaging Prof. Geary's reputation.

-D

[fightingninja2]

without starting another mudslinging session, is there somewhere i can get the backstory of split.
What happened josh is charles mattera wanted all the money.
Fred bagley was grand master villaris senior instructor(8th dan) charles mattera (7th dan)was an districk manager for villari nothing more. He just was greedy in my opinion.

When I was with ussd and I found out about the real history of villaris/ussd my friend who owns his dojo 100% somthing you can't do anymore, told me that villari was a bad buseness man and ripped people off so thats why mattera left.

He also said that mattera used to run villaris which I found out was not true.

He also said charles mattera and fred villari were partners which I also found out was not true.

My friend is pretty loyal to ussd and I think he just didn't want me to find out I could open a villaris school for $40,000 and keep 100% of the money.

They are very secrtive about the real history and most instructors dont know about it.

If you dont beleave me call a USSD in your town and ask them about villari and see what they say.

[fightingninja2]

John James has been known to intentionally spread lies about Christopher Geary. PM me Joe of you want to know who can verify that. He can't be trusted when it comes to this topic. NCK has an Omaha school (run by a guy who got his Shodan from Prof. Geary and has since been distance-learning NCK) so he has a financial interest in damaging Prof. Geary's reputation.

-D
You maybe right about that david.
When I was with USSD if an instructor quit are master would say he sucked he was stealing he wasn't following the program.You get the picture.It was never the companys fault, bad location,push through the ranks to run a school so the company can make more money off manauls bogus fees, tournaments, test fees,abc billing company which the company owned, and give the instructor shi! Master instructor hasn't worked a dojo in 10 years out of touch with prices and how to run a dojo.

If someone quits or the school wasn't doing well the blame rests with the master who runs the area not just the instructor. Its alot easyer to blame the instructor then to take resonsiblity and fixed the problem and give the instructor good training and get your hands dirty and work in your dojos not just bark out comands.
In order for nobody to talk to the person that left just start telling lies about them and everyone will loss respect for them. After all your my master and you wouldn't lie to me right?
Thats what happens with ussd instructors who quit the almighty company.

[fightingninja2]

Its funny how the subject ussd and villaris got on CGSK, here's what I heard about him a few years ago.
Pro geary did a mass email to all instructors in ussd. Not the best thing to do with out seeing if one or two get through first. What pro geary did not know 95% of the emails at ussd go to a masters email before getting to the instructor first.
So only a couple got through.

Their was a meeting how pro geary sucked he learned from a bad ussd instructor(not the masters fault the instructors, see post above)
The police reports in flordia were passed out and more bad talk about geary.
Needless to say if gearys email I never seen but I know it was something on lines to come work for him.

[kickingfist]

Its funny how you say villari ripped people off and mattera was the good guy.
I heard mattera ripped poeple off and breaks tax laws.

Anyone hear anything like this?

[KenpoDavid]

Its funny how the subject ussd and villaris got on CGSK, here's what I heard about him a few years ago.
Pro geary did a mass email to all instructors in ussd. Not the best thing to do with out seeing if one or two get through first. What pro geary did not know 95% of the emails at ussd go to a masters email before getting to the instructor first.
So only a couple got through.

Their was a meeting how pro geary sucked he learned from a bad ussd instructor(not the masters fault the instructors, see post above)
The police reports in flordia were passed out and more bad talk about geary.
Needless to say if gearys email I never seen but I know it was something on lines to come work for him.

Yes, that's pretty much what I heard too.

A year or more later I was trying to track down Prof. Geary's original instructor. So I sent an email to the HQ at USSD (I didn't know about the mass mailing thing at the time). I got a response from Paul Taylor, it simply said "Are you a student of Christopher Geary?". I replied, and never heard from them again.

We did eventually locate the teacher, he had returned to his home country (Iran).

[KenpoDavid]

Its funny how the subject ussd and villaris got on CGSK, here's what I heard about him a few years ago.
Pro geary did a mass email to all instructors in ussd. Not the best thing to do with out seeing if one or two get through first. What pro geary did not know 95% of the emails at ussd go to a masters email before getting to the instructor first.
So only a couple got through.

Their was a meeting how pro geary sucked he learned from a bad ussd instructor(not the masters fault the instructors, see post above)
The police reports in flordia were passed out and more bad talk about geary.
Needless to say if gearys email I never seen but I know it was something on lines to come work for him.

Yes, that's pretty much what I heard too.

A year or more later I was trying to track down Prof. Geary's original instructor. So I sent an email to the HQ at USSD (I didn't know about the mass mailing thing at the time). I got a response from Paul Taylor, it simply said "Are you a student of Christopher Geary?". I replied, and never heard from them again.

We did eventually locate the teacher, he had returned to his home country (Iran).

[kickingfist]

It would have been better to leave a message on the answering machines of all the dojos then to email everyone.

[KenpoDavid]

Yeah, probably so :)

I think he realized, he probably didn't want most of the USSD schools/instructors anyway LOL

[KenpoDavid]

John James has been known to intentionally spread lies about Christopher Geary. PM me Joe of you want to know who can verify that. He can't be trusted when it comes to this topic. NCK has an Omaha school (run by a guy who got his Shodan from Prof. Geary and has since been distance-learning NCK) so he has a financial interest in damaging Prof. Geary's reputation.

-D

A couple of years ago I was told a story about how John James was intentionally not telling the truth about Christopher Geary's black belt, by a man who at the time I had much respect for and trust in. That man has since shown that he is a hypocrite and will readily bend the truth when it serves his agenda. At the time, I had no reason to doubt his word. In hindsight, I guess his agenda lined up with supporting Prof. Geary and tarnishing John James. Now, with Prof. Geary's dispute with the KGS BBS, that man's agenda is just the opposite (as he holds high office in that group): he has a beef with Prof. Geary and is aligned with John James. So he claims that he does not remember telling me that story that led to me making this post.

Mr. James has given me a plausible story as well about the same incident. In his version, he and the man who told me the story were at odds over a perceived smear on Nick Cerios reputation. The 180-degree turn in this man's alignment is obvious through his vehement attack on me for some perceived (invented) smear I supposedly made at Nick Cerio.

It is impossible for me to know who to believe at this point. I know that both men want to see Prof. Geary's reputation ruined, and so I don't think I can believe either of them, really.

John James also claims not to have any financial stake in the NCK school here in Omaha. I think I was not clear what I meant. I never meant he _personally_ had invested in the Omaha school, I meant that, as a leader of the NCK organization, he has a vested interest in seeing the local NCK school flourish and the CNG schools diminish. I still believe that is true, although I have no idea what the financial arrangements are between the national NCK organization and the local affiliates.

So, can I prove beyond doubt that John James told these lies? No, I'm sorry, I cannot. He may be an honest man whose reputation (in my eyes) was damaged by a man who I now know for certain is not trustworthy, is a hypocrite, and a liar:

That other guy, who I haven't named here, criticized me in public for posting things that were supposedly said in private (they were not). I sent him a private email about it. He then posted that email on at least 3 web sites. I've never seen a more pure definition of hypocrite.

[fightingninja2]

Yeah, probably so :)

I think he realized, he probably didn't want most of the USSD schools/instructors anyway LOL

TOO FUNNY
:D
Ther are some good instructors in ussd. Its just like anything else you have to shop around till you find a good one.

[kickingfist]

Did he open his own school in Iran?

[ReSeDe Fighter]

I was a 3rd degree before I left a Villari's studios in West Palm Beach Fl. I have had nothing but great experiences with the orginization! Tournaments and all! I cant say I have trained with anyone USSD so I have no comparison, but I can say I (for what it's worth) recommend Villari's! hope it helps :)

[KenpoDavid]

Did he open his own school in Iran?

I remember thinking that would be cool if he did, but we never found any evidence of it.

[KGS BBS]

Hi David, so that others know what's going on, David and I have called a truce and are back on cordial terms as were were before. David, I didn't see this post until just now. I know it was before our truce but I wish to comment. Yes, I will talk to your privately about who this guy is, I would like to know. Also, I will freely admit something that was not true that was going to be stated about CNG's certificate from Nick Cerio. I make no bones about it and discussed it with Hanshi Seavey and he agreed with me on it and had nothing to do with it's concoction in any way, shape or form. He's not like that at all. I will say to this day, even if I am at odds with someone over something, as I am with Geary, I would never slander him over something that I KNOW is not true and if it's what I think you mean, I would defend Geary on that one to this day and I always did when it came up. I will take full responsibility as I told you privately in posting the short pm you sent me in regards to Cerio but like I stated, he was my instructor at one time and became a very close and beloved friend to my wife and I. When I read something which I preceived to slander the man who is dead and cannot defend himself, I felt it was 'no holds barred' and 'gloves off' and I did what I had to do to defend his honor. I am sorry if that hurt your trust in me but as I stated it was my loyalty to Nick Cerio and loyalty is everything. Like I told you, it's an new day and I will honor our truce with my word. I also would like to say that I did confirm from Sifu Bruce very recently that Nick Cerio did consider Geary's promotion as an 'embarrassing mistake' BUT I also confirmed with both Bruce and Craig recently that in all due respect to John, that he may have decided as the one in charge of the Cerio tree to cut Geary out of it due to Cerio's feelings of the situation before he died. Both feel this is how it went down. Again, this is something that is still unconfirmed because I have never seen Geary's name on any of the older 90's family trees of NCK when Nick was alive but I would have to check the exact dates of these trees for full confirmation. I am just trying to be as open and honest on this as I can be, I just found out this info. very recently. Interesting stuff! Talk to you soon, Prof. Joe

[KenpoDavid]

Hi David, so that others know what's going on, David and I have called a truce and are back on cordial terms as were were before. David, I didn't see this post until just now. I know it was before our truce but I wish to comment. Yes, I will talk to your privately about who this guy is, I would like to know. Also, I will freely admit something that was not true that was going to be stated about CNG's certificate from Nick Cerio. I make no bones about it and discussed it with Hanshi Seavey and he agreed with me on it and had nothing to do with it's concoction in any way, shape or form. He's not like that at all. I will say to this day, even if I am at odds with someone over something, as I am with Geary, I would never slander him over something that I KNOW is not true and if it's what I think you mean, I would defend Geary on that one to this day and I always did when it came up. I will take full responsibility as I told you privately in posting the short pm you sent me in regards to Cerio but like I stated, he was my instructor at one time and became a very close and beloved friend to my wife and I. When I read something which I preceived to slander the man who is dead and cannot defend himself, I felt it was 'no holds barred' and 'gloves off' and I did what I had to do to defend his honor. I am sorry if that hurt your trust in me but as I stated it was my loyalty to Nick Cerio and loyalty is everything. Like I told you, it's an new day and I will honor our truce with my word. I also would like to say that I did confirm from Sifu Bruce very recently that Nick Cerio did consider Geary's promotion as an 'embarrassing mistake' BUT I also confirmed with both Bruce and Craig recently that in all due respect to John, that he may have decided as the one in charge of the Cerio tree to cut Geary out of it due to Cerio's feelings of the situation before he died. Both feel this is how it went down. Again, this is something that is still unconfirmed because I have never seen Geary's name on any of the older 90's family trees of NCK when Nick was alive but I would have to check the exact dates of these trees for full confirmation. I am just trying to be as open and honest on this as I can be, I just found out this info. very recently. Interesting stuff! Talk to you soon, Prof. Joe

No problem :) :Angel:

For my peace of mind, I believe Cerio did promote Geary, and later either he or his successors took it back. I've seen the certificate, signed by Nick Cerio, with my own eyes, and I've seen the newsletter too and the membership card. But I also think it is really irrelevant now since Lou Angel has tested and promoted him more than once since then.

[KGS BBS]

Good point. Hanshi Seavey always stated the the certificate was authentic. I always said that too.There was just a typo on it where American was mispelled. Authority was delegated in NCK. Hanshi Seavey and Shihan Clermont Poulin, the two co-heads had nothing to do with the NCK Family Tree or the NCK website, Shihan James was in charge of that and did a hell of a job but you'd have to ask him about that. Prof. Joe

[KempoJer]

In 1993, East Coast Villari man Steve Demasco, who was a 7th degree with Villari, left Villari and joined forces with Mattera running the East Coast schools.

I just wanted to add that all the USSD schools on Long Island broke off from USSD and call themselves United Studios, and they now train under Prof Kimo Ferriera from Hawaii. His organization is Kempo Jutsu-Kai International. I think many other USSD schools on the east coast are on the fence. It seems there were some problems with Master DeMasco.

[fightingninja2]

I've heard the same thing.

Whats the deal with damasco?

[KempoJer]

I've heard the same thing.

Whats the deal with damasco?


I really can't speak for those involved, but it seems that one minute his students worship the ground he walks on and then something happens and they lose all respect for him. I think that it has something do do with his business ethics. The only ones that know the whole story are the Villari, and USSD people in the north east.

[KenpoDavid]

At the time it happened, some of the students posted here on MAP about it. Some diligent searchnig might turn up those threads...

[KempoJer]

At the time it happened, some of the students posted here on MAP about it. Some diligent searching might turn up those threads...


Thanks David, I found those old threads. It's funny how a couple people said the rumors were all lies, and we all watched as the signs came down.

[kickingfist]

How many ussd east coast demasco schools are left?

[KempoJer]

kickingfist,
If the USSD is up to date, there are ten schools left on the east coast. I am not sure what the original count was, but I remember the list being much longer.

[kickingfist]

It was alot bigger 10 years ago. Demasco lost alot of his instructors when charles mattera's ussd wanted to charge 160 amonth for lessions and $135,000 for a dojo you cant own a 100% anymore.New england is littered with independent shaolin kempo schools.
Mattera sent his people out their to get them to charge more(didn't work) so about 90% of them left and went independent or joined someone else. Fred Villari still rules the east coast and charles mattera knows it.


www.villarisonline.com

www.shaolinkempo.com

[KempoJer]

Kickingfist, where do you train?

[fightingninja2]

Why should they stay with charles mattera or ussd for that matter? There probably is 10th degree in every town out their. Who dont try to take every dime from the instructor.

Why stay with charles mattera ussd organization?It is so out of touch with reallty on how much to charge people for karate or how to run a dojo IMHO.

[KempoJer]

Why should they stay with charles mattera or ussd for that matter? There probably is 10th degree in every town out their. Who dont try to take every dime from the instructor.

I don't think their issues were with Mattera, I think they were with DeMasco. But, that is not to say one is better or worse than the other. I just know what I have seen out here. There are a few Grand Masters out here in several different styles, all I have to say is a little research goes a long way.

[fightingninja2]

Your right about that.
Who wants to give 33% of their profit to someone that doesn't even work in your dojo? :confused:

[kickingfist]

Thanks David, I found those old threads. It's funny how a couple people said the rumors were all lies, and we all watched as the signs came down.

Did you find out why?

[kickingfist]

Kickingfist, where do you train?

I no longer train with ussd I train in muay thai kick boxing.

I find ussd shaolin kempo unrealistic to defened yourself.Do you train with villaris? I know bill hoff of ussd was looking to open ussd schools in florida.

[kickingfist]

Your right about that.
Who wants to give 33% of their profit to someone that doesn't even work in your dojo? :confused:

I know why would you? :confused:

[KempoJer]

I no longer train with ussd I train in muay thai kick boxing.

I find ussd shaolin kempo unrealistic to defened yourself.Do you train with villaris? I know bill hoff of ussd was looking to open ussd schools in florida.

I train at Shaolin Self Defense Center, you actually had a link in one of your posts a few days ago. It is Professor Thomas Ingargiolas organization.

[kickingfist]

I train at Shaolin Self Defense Center, you actually had a link in one of your posts a few days ago. It is Professor Thomas Ingargiolas organization.

I am sorry kempojer i dont train at professor Ingargiolas schools. I heard nothing but good things about him and his instructors.

I heard he just got his 9th degree from kimo and nick cerios wife, is this true?

[Matthew Barnes]

I am sorry kempojer i dont train at professor Ingargiolas schools. I heard nothing but good things about him and his instructors.

I heard he just got his 9th degree from kimo and nick cerios wife, is this true?


Saturday, April 29th Professor Ingargiola received his 9th Dan from Professor Kimo at the Cape Cod Martial Arts Academy banquet. Professor Nancy Cerio was there and was kind enough to witness the promotion and sign the certificate. We are really grateful for her support both to us at CCMAA and to Professor Ferreira.

Matt

[kickingfist]

Thats cool! matt thanks for the info.

[fightingninja2]

I heard master joe moscatelli left ussd. He ran the east part of ussd.Have you guys heard anything?

[kickingfist]

I heard master joe moscatelli left ussd. He ran the east part of ussd.Have you guys heard anything?
No.
I'll ask my friend whos still with ussd.



www.villarisonline.com

[Red J]

Kickingfist:

Just an FYI,

The latest Villari website is www.villaristudios.com .

[kickingfist]

Kickingfist:

Just an FYI,

The latest Villari website is www.villaristudios.com .

Thanks redj!

Have you ask your instructor about villaris taking over ussd?


www.villaristudios.com

[Red J]

Thanks redj!

Have you ask your instructor about villaris taking over ussd?


www.villaristudios.com

He had heard of plans of a small expansion, but nothing like what you are referring to. I think it was just a couple of East Coast guys moving locations. I haven't noticed anything yet.

[ShaolinKempoKa]

I personally LOVE U.S.S.D., And am traning to become an instructor. My instructors are THE nicest people I've ever met before. And the style is very aplliable to the street, while having alot of tradition thrown in. (The shaolin temple endorsement is also good for us.) ;) The grandmasters of ussd are the only two white disciples ever in shaolin history. And the belt system makes you want to strive for your next belt, we don't just give em away. It really makes you feel like you accomplished something. And the tests are very hard. I've been doing this for 3 or 4 years now and i'm just under 1st kyu. (green-brown.) It takes a very long time to get to black belt, and i like that. It's just a really positive enviroment, and we get to go to the shaolin temple again and train with the monks in 2009! :) Lots of kung fu and karate focusing mostly on shaolin animals. Well I hope you got some good info outt'a this. www.ussd.com

[ShaolinKempoKa]

Umm... Master moscitalli prolly spelled wrong. Is the master of connecticut, I train there. lol it's funny to hear that. He's a really nice guy. And no they don't let RED BELTS run dojos. lol you guys come up with some misconceptions. Does villari run acadeny of kempo martial arts? :)

[DAnjo]

I personally LOVE U.S.S.D., And am traning to become an instructor. My instructors are THE nicest people I've ever met before. And the style is very aplliable to the street, while having alot of tradition thrown in. (The shaolin temple endorsement is also good for us.) ;) The grandmasters of ussd are the only two white disciples ever in shaolin history. And the belt system makes you want to strive for your next belt, we don't just give em away. It really makes you feel like you accomplished something. And the tests are very hard. I've been doing this for 3 or 4 years now and i'm just under 1st kyu. (green-brown.) It takes a very long time to get to black belt, and i like that. It's just a really positive enviroment, and we get to go to the shaolin temple again and train with the monks in 2009! :) Lots of kung fu and karate focusing mostly on shaolin animals. Well I hope you got some good info outt'a this. www.ussd.com

Hey man,

well, I'm glad that your'e having a good experience and I hope that you keep training hard. I think that you'll find a lot of people a lot older than you that have some very strong opinions about the USSD etc., so just realize that there's a lot more out there than what you've experienced. I believe that you are getting ready for 3rd kyu rather than 1st if you're a green-brown stripe, but that's just a technical point.

The tests at the USSD are usually very long and exhausting and they show that you have a lot of stamina in order to get through them.

Like anything else, it's often the person that makes the art work, but as you can see, there are many out in the rest of the world that have opinions as to the various art's effectiveness in the street. I think SKK can be a pretty good one if it's taught right and as you get older, you'll be able to check out other things and make comparisons for yourself. Always hold yourself to high standards however, and train hard. And most of all listen to those who've been around and see what you can learn from them. Not only in your school, but on these forums also.

[KempoFist]

Well in case you saw it, my last post here was a bit more harsh than I would have intended, but the points I made I feel are important so I'm going to make another attempt.

The USSD system is something I am quite aquainted with, and I can tell you firsthand that it's very important that you test what you are learning, because as I've said (I think the threads still around here somewhere) alot of Kempo schools, especially those of Villari or USSD lineage tend to focus alot on implausible technique and less on reality through live sparring. Alot of teachers can make things appear to work very well, but they fall apart under resistance that would be much what you'd experience in a real fight (and I've proven this first hand to my students by intentionally duping them into believing a flawed technique in order to teach them proper objectivity when learning how to fight. These students aged from 10-50).

(The shaolin temple endorsement is also good for us.)

I wouldn't say so from a fighting/self defense point of view. The Shaolin Temple (actually Shaolin Kung Fu as a whole) is not what it was considering the Chinese Governments destruction of the Shaolin, and transformation of what they taught into modern Wushu, which has little applicability to real fighting or self defense purposes. Although incredibly athletic and quite entertaining, it's not much more than gymnastics with kicks and animal mimickery.

The grandmasters of ussd are the only two white disciples ever in shaolin history.

I haven't researched this myself, but I'm fairly certain that this claim is either skewed or at best misleading.

And the belt system makes you want to strive for your next belt, we don't just give em away. It really makes you feel like you accomplished something. And the tests are very hard. I've been doing this for 3 or 4 years now and i'm just under 1st kyu. (green-brown.) It takes a very long time to get to black belt, and i like that.


That's awesome. It's good to hear your school actually at least upholds standards and gives you a workout. Alot of USSD schools have given up on that. A few guys I train with were USSD instructors, and they hated the way the organization here on the East Coast has just fallen apart and allowed beyond substandard individuals attain a Black Belt or higher.

It's just a really positive enviroment, and we get to go to the shaolin temple again and train with the monks in 2009! Lots of kung fu and karate focusing mostly on shaolin animals. Well I hope you got some good info outt'a this. www.ussd.com

That's cool. If not for just the experience and a good time I'd like to go one day. Of course I'd have to somehow live down the accusations of paying to visit a tourist trap but hey, I call it a cultural experience :)

Just make sure you know and are honest with what you are learning. The only real way to know if what you are learning really works is to do it. Kempo guys are notorious for advocating point sparring over REAL sparring, and claim that they can't spar with their techniques because they are "too dangerous." If you hear that, this may hurt but trust me it is nothing more than a cop-out.

Train hard, and good luck man!

[Almost A Ghost]

I'm pretty sure Villari aliented alot what instructors he had left when he posted instructor "job opening" positions on www.monster.com a few years back. I would post it, but unfortunately, monster doesn't have a public archive of job postings.

Basicly, it was an "Instructors College" crash course.

[ShaolinKempoKa]

Yes typo i meant 3rd kyu. And i'm positive that USSD is right for me and it works. (I've had to use it once in a minor situation.) And we do MOSTLY free sparring. So I'm 100% confident that USSD is right for me. Just remember, what you hear is sometimes different than what you actually experience, ok? :) Thank you.

[DAnjo]

Yes typo i meant 3rd kyu. And i'm positive that USSD is right for me and it works. (I've had to use it once in a minor situation.) And we do MOSTLY free sparring. So I'm 100% confident that USSD is right for me. Just remember, what you hear is sometimes different than what you actually experience, ok? :) Thank you.

Well, I'm glad for you.My year and a half with the USSD wasn't a very pleasant experience in terms of what I did, saw, and heard. I even bought out the last 6 months of my contract by paying back the "discounts" I recieved over the previous year and a half for signing up for two years. But I'm glad you seem to have found a place you enjoy. Have fun with it.

[KempoFist]

Yes typo i meant 3rd kyu. And i'm positive that USSD is right for me and it works. (I've had to use it once in a minor situation.) And we do MOSTLY free sparring. So I'm 100% confident that USSD is right for me. Just remember, what you hear is sometimes different than what you actually experience, ok? :) Thank you.

Awesome then. Be sure to keep us posted on your progress to black belt :)

[Satori81]

Excellent!

Can I ask you one question, though...

How much are you paying for classes, and are you under any sort of contract?

[ShaolinKempoKa]

I am actually not sure on that. I believe that the longer you sign up for, The less money it costs monthly. And if you can no longer come in or choose not to they stop billing for the months that you don't come in, I believe. Pretty sure, though. :)

[FightingMonk2k3]

there's Red Belts in USSD? i wasnt aware that there were Red Belts there. I was aware they had the following: White, Yellow, Orange, Blue, Green, Brown, and Black. and then also had Blue w/ a Green stripe; Green w/ a Brown stripe, and then 3 levels of Brown.

[Satori81]

Red Belt is "Assistant Instructor" in USSD.

Anyone that is either in the Instructor's College or teaching without a Black Belt is allowed to wear a Red Belt instead of their earned rank.

[buda warrior]

there's Red Belts in USSD? i wasnt aware that there were Red Belts there. I was aware they had the following: White, Yellow, Orange, Blue, Green, Brown, and Black. and then also had Blue w/ a Green stripe; Green w/ a Brown stripe, and then 3 levels of Brown.

They put red belts on assistant instructors to hide their rank.

[buda warrior]

Umm... Master moscitalli prolly spelled wrong. Is the master of connecticut, I train there. lol it's funny to hear that. He's a really nice guy. And no they don't let RED BELTS run dojos. lol you guys come up with some misconceptions. Does villari run acadeny of kempo martial arts? :)

Grandmaster fred villari is where you masters came from. http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/fv-ft.html
Ask master moscitalli about him. He will tell you that they broke away from him 18 years ago.
As for ussd as a whole I would stay away from them.

You seem like a nice person so before you jump on ussd's instructors academy,you should ask your instructor how much he makes?

Does ussd take taxes out (they dont)?

How many hours a week do you have to work?50

How much is a dojo? Last time I checked it was $140,000 and you get 66% of the profit if you work it yourself.

Ask your instructor why you can't own a dojo 100% and he'll say because the company needs to grow or some crap like that.

If your on the east coast you should check www.shaolinkempo.com
It's run by 9th degree Shihan Tom Ingargiola.
He came from fred villaris like your masters. And he would let you own your dojo 100% for less money.

Before you buy a car you do background check on it first right?
Does it have a habit of breaking down after 30,000 miles? Crappy gas mileage?
Does it handle well?

Why should martial arts schools be any different?

[Almost A Ghost]

Umm... Master moscitalli prolly spelled wrong. Is the master of connecticut, I train there. lol it's funny to hear that. He's a really nice guy. And no they don't let RED BELTS run dojos. lol you guys come up with some misconceptions. Does villari run acadeny of kempo martial arts? :)

That statement is somewhat untrue. Red belts have run studios before, while your district manager may not do that, others have. Is it a bad thing? Depends on who you are asking, what the situation is, and the quality of instruction. I'm pretty sure everybody can dream up good and bad scenerios.

[John Bishop]

Red belts have run studios before, while your district manager may not do that, others have. Is it a bad thing? Depends on who you are asking, what the situation is, and the quality of instruction. I'm pretty sure everybody can dream up good and bad scenerios.

Well lets see. A student is paying $150-$200 a month to be taught by a green or brown belt wearing a "red instructor's" belt.
Sounds like a good thing for the people getting paid. Whole lot more green and brown belts to run schools then experienced black belts.
Don't sound like a good thing for the people doing the paying.

[Almost A Ghost]

Well lets see. A student is paying $150-$200 a month to be taught by a green or brown belt wearing a "red instructor's" belt.
Sounds like a good thing for the people getting paid. Whole lot more green and brown belts to run schools then experienced black belts.
Don't sound like a good thing for the people doing the paying.

Let's take yours and add to it:

That A red belt, who's actual rank is a brown belt that is a month or two away from testing for their black belt is put in charge of a realtively new school were none of the students are above a blue belt level.

Teaching experience *can* come before you get a blackbelt, there's nothing stating otherwise.

Like I said, anybody can dream up good and bad scenerios about this subject. Now you can sit there all day and dream up horrible scenerios about such situations, but until you can point at a school, USSD or not, that's doing that right now, or have a personal experience with this, it's all just talk and ghost stories.

[bill007]

Well lets see. A student is paying $150-$200 a month to be taught by a green or brown belt wearing a "red instructor's" belt.
Sounds like a good thing for the people getting paid. Whole lot more green and brown belts to run schools then experienced black belts.
Don't sound like a good thing for the people doing the paying.

150 - 200$ a month wow!!! I hope there's a private class each week in the package :eek:

[John Bishop]

Let's take yours and add to it:

That A red belt, who's actual rank is a brown belt that is a month or two away from testing for their black belt is put in charge of a realtively new school were none of the students are above a blue belt level.

Teaching experience *can* come before you get a blackbelt, there's nothing stating otherwise.

Like I said, anybody can dream up good and bad scenerios about this subject. Now you can sit there all day and dream up horrible scenerios about such situations, but until you can point at a school, USSD or not, that's doing that right now, or have a personal experience with this, it's all just talk and ghost stories.

So, do the students pay the same fees for classes from a "brown belt who's almost a black belt", as they do in the schools run by 6th-7th degrees etc? And is the true rank of the instructor disclosed to the student before they sign up?

[Almost A Ghost]

So, do the students pay the same fees for classes from a "brown belt who's almost a black belt", as they do in the schools run by 6th-7th degrees etc? And is the true rank of the instructor disclosed to the student before they sign up?

Sorry, I can't answer that, it's been a number of years since I have been with the org. If you are really interested, you could try calling the district managers.

I'm just trying to think if I've ever scene somebody that high in rank that was still running a school instead of being a district manager or something above that level....

[DAnjo]

Sorry, I can't answer that, it's been a number of years since I have been with the org. If you are really interested, you could try calling the district managers.

I'm just trying to think if I've ever scene somebody that high in rank that was still running a school instead of being a district manager or something above that level....

Well, when Michelle Fanara, a 2nd degree, left Seal Beach CA. in 2004, it was handed over to a guy named Russle. Russle was a green belt, who wore red in class. How do I know? Because I tested in the same tests as Russle and I out-ranked him. I do know that very often, when one is enrolled in the instructor's academy, they occasionally let you "skip ranks" by being what they call "Double Promoted". That was done with Russle in the test he was in with me. I was going for Green-brown stripe and he was a purple belt that was skipped to green. The thing Russle did have, was enough money to put a down payment on the franchise. I quit one day after he took over. There was no way that I was calling someone "Sensei" and bowing to them when I outranked them. Even when he tried to correct my sparring a couple of weeks earlier, I knew that I outranked him I invited him to show me how to do it better by getting his gear on and going with me. He refused since he knew I could kick the crap out of him in sparring (I'd done it several weeks before).

Honestly, that whole "Red Belt" thing was one of the worst things about the USSD. And, "No" you didnt get a discount for being taught by one of them.

As to the private lessons...if your black belt instructor was too busy, you were then taught by one of their red belts instead. Horrible practice.

[DAnjo]

I'm just trying to think if I've ever scene somebody that high in rank that was still running a school instead of being a district manager or something above that level....

Exactly. There were a few. Like Blain Carter etc. But not many. They mostly gave those fat old boys high rank for business reasons there.

I'm glad that my current instructor hasn't stopped teaching because he's higher than a fourth degree.

[Almost A Ghost]

DAnjo, thanks for posting that experience.

I have seen that happen first hand myself a couple of times. I went through the "instructors college", but I digress... I don't want to seem as a person who's "bitter", just happy things "didn't work out".

[KempoFist]

So, do the students pay the same fees for classes from a "brown belt who's almost a black belt", as they do in the schools run by 6th-7th degrees etc? And is the true rank of the instructor disclosed to the student before they sign up?

In all honesty Mr. Bishop I'd put my money on alot of brown-1st dan instructors being more qualified to teach than alot of USSD high belts just on the principle that they are still within a bit more of the confines of reality, and don't get so caught up in the fear they strike into their students (at high ranks, you can demonstrate compliant techniques, and seemingly everything and anything you do will work flawlessly on your student who's afraid to offend you). At the lower ranks, you still have to prove to not only your students but yourself that what you're teaching is good. The higher up you go, the more delusional they get. :rolleyes:

[DAnjo]

In all honesty Mr. Bishop I'd put my money on alot of brown-1st dan instructors being more qualified to teach than alot of USSD high belts just on the principle that they are still within a bit more of the confines of reality, and don't get so caught up in the fear they strike into their students (at high ranks, you can demonstrate compliant techniques, and seemingly everything and anything you do will work flawlessly on your student who's afraid to offend you). At the lower ranks, you still have to prove to not only your students but yourself that what you're teaching is good. The higher up you go, the more delusional they get. :rolleyes:

As long as you're confining your remarks to the USSD, I'll agree with you. AS far as BJJ and Kajukenbo, I'd say that that is definitely not the case. If it were, I'd have been gone in six weeks. I'm too old to play those type of games anymore.

[FightingMonk2k3]

so if i am understanding this right, students w/ USSD that have enough $$ to buy their way through the ranks instead of actually train and test their way through the ranks, can own their own place even b4 they make it to black?

that's a huge mistake AND one of the most stupidest things i've ever heard. when i was with Villari's Shaolin Kempo, my instructors usually had black belts train the students when the main instructors were busy. at that time, there must have been, i'd say about 10 to 15 extra black belts that'd train at the location i was at before i left. now it's down to like, 3 because of people branching off to do "better things" or because of too much drama.

[PeterG]

(The shaolin temple endorsement is also good for us.) ;) The grandmasters of ussd are the only two white disciples ever in shaolin history. www.ussd.com

Is that what they said, or what the abbot said? And can you point to a non-USSD source that says that?

What does that make the other Westerners who have studied at the temple, chopped liver?

[KempoFist]

Is that what they said, or what the abbot said? And can you point to a non-USSD source that says that?

What does that make the other Westerners who have studied at the temple, chopped liver?

It is to my understanding that Mr. Demasco and Mattera are "representatives" of the temple, and not just students. If you read BB mag, you'll see lots of articles of Demasco speaking as a Kung Fu practitioner and representative and not a Kempo master. Everyone else are just students of the temple.

[Almost A Ghost]

If you look at www.shaolinsecrets.com, a site run by a USSD instructor from SoCal states that the Abbot "adopted" them and gave them chinese names, the first time for Americans.

[DAnjo]

If you look at www.shaolinsecrets.com, a site run by a USSD instructor from SoCal states that the Abbot "adopted" them and gave them chinese names, the first time for Americans.

Yeah, and they paid for their own adoption too. :)

[Almost A Ghost]

I can't believe how many people they get to buy into that :rolleyes:

[PeterG]

If you look at www.shaolinsecrets.com, a site run by a USSD instructor from SoCal states that the Abbot "adopted" them and gave them chinese names, the first time for Americans.

Okay, it looks like they got some extremely nice gifts, but its a USSD instructor who is making the characterization concerning their relationship as he attempts to sell product.

I just found an article in Black Belt from March 2003, in which they are called Disciples, but is there anyone who can independantly confirm that they are the only such Westerners out there.

[KenpoDavid]

The grandmasters of ussd are the only two white disciples ever in shaolin history. www.ussd.com

I beg to differ. Perhaps you have forgotten about Kwai Chang Caine, admitted to the temple in the early 1870s. he was half caucasian and half chinese, but his admission was controversial, as shown by this transcript:

"In the Shaolin Temple we have never accepted anyone of other than full Chinese birth." Caine thinks he is being sent away but a moment later Master Kan continues, "There is a first for everything."

http://www.kungfu-guide.com/img_wb/462001111529279khan.jpg

[DAnjo]

The grandmasters of ussd are the only two white disciples ever in shaolin history.


No they're not. The are many others here's one for instance:

http://www.russbo.com/main.html

Also, this is from http://www.shaolin.com It's their response to FAQ #18:

18. I want to study at the Shaolin Temple in China. Can you give me more information?

Unfortunately, the Shaolin temples were destroyed in the 1920's. Recently, the Chinese government decided to refurbish the temple at Honan. While martial arts are studied there today, this is a recent re-emergence into the arts. Our contacts who have visited the Honan Temple (1985, 1988, and 1999) report that what is taught is mostly Wushu and T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Most of our contacts who have visited the Temple believe it is more a trendy tourist point (and, yes, a good place to learn wu shu-but NOT kung fu) than a real effort to restore the arts outlawed by successive Chinese governments from 1901 until 1990.

Jon Funk (Black Belt, March, 1996:21) has written a controversial article entitled "The Shaolin Temple Hoax." Because of the number of letters we receive about "the return of Shaolin Masters" to the tourist-dedicated, refurbished Honan Temple, we felt obliged to publicize Mr. Funk's laudatory effort. Our primary sources for this Web-Page are exiled Shaolin monks (or the diaries left behind by those who passed away in the 1970s), who assure us that Mr. Funk is right-on-the-mark about the complete absence of anything even remotely akin to bona fide Shaolin arts being taught at the Honan Temple today.

Because so many of our letters are written by people who believe that the Temple is now offering genuine Shaolin arts (despite our protestations about "who do you think expelled/killed the old Shaolin in the early twentieth century?"), we quote a short, but important, part of Mr. Funk's article:

"The Chinese government, it should be remembered, is communist, and doesn't want a religious group generating any ideas that don't conform to the party line."

There is always going to be a gullible audience for "too-good-to-be-true" claimants. We are delighted that a source who is completely independent of our own, has come forward in such a prestigious and public forum as Black Belt magazine to substantiate our caveat.

Although the Chinese government believes that the mere presence of martial arts instructors at the Honan temple lends them legitimacy, we find it as unlikely as the current attempt by the same government to countermand the Dalai Lama's choice for the reincarnated Panchen Lama. The last of the genuine Shaolin practitioners either fled the country or were killed during the civil wars of 1900-1931.

[James Kovacich]

Interesting desciple!

[buda warrior]

If you look at www.shaolinsecrets.com, a site run by a USSD instructor from SoCal states that the Abbot "adopted" them and gave them chinese names, the first time for Americans.

Oh I believe everything ussd tells me. They would never lie to me right? WRONG!

They claim their from nick cerio,THATS A BIG FAT LIE!
They are from GM fred villari.

He claims they teach shaolin but all they teach is fred villari kempo.

Charles mattera claims he ran fred villaris self defense centers. LIE

Fred bagely was the president of villaris, mattera was just a district manager of california.

If he ran villari's why doesn't mattera have any dojo's in boston where villari's started out at?

Hey isn't sincerity one of ussd's principles?

[KempoFist]

If he ran villari's why doesn't mattera have any dojo's in boston where villari's started out at?

It is to the best of my knowledge that Mattera took over west coast operations whereas Demasco took the East coast. Then they split up.

[natkungfu]

Oh I believe everything ussd tells me. They would never lie to me right? WRONG!

They claim their from nick cerio,THATS A BIG FAT LIE!
They are from GM fred villari.

He claims they teach shaolin but all they teach is fred villari kempo.

Charles mattera claims he ran fred villaris self defense centers. LIE

Fred bagely was the president of villaris, mattera was just a district manager of california.

If he ran villari's why doesn't mattera have any dojo's in boston where villari's started out at?

Hey isn't sincerity one of ussd's principles?

I would not train with USSD. Any company that lie's about where they came from and what art they teach should not be allowed to conduct business IMHO.

[DAnjo]

Hey isn't sincerity one of ussd's principles?

They're very sincere.

About making money, that is.

[natkungfu]

They're very sincere.

About making money, that is.

Thats funny!! :D

[natkungfu]

If you look at www.shaolinsecrets.com, a site run by a USSD instructor from SoCal states that the Abbot "adopted" them and gave them chinese names, the first time for Americans.

Gee I wonder how much that cost?

[James Funaro]

WOW, time for me to chime in. As a former student and assistant instructor I have to say, USSD is NOT about fighting. It's about collecting the money ( not in itself evil, we all have to mak money,, and if you can make a fortune on MA, go for it).

However, everyone ALWAYS gets promoted, never have I seen someone fail a belt test. No matter how bad they were ( not their fault because most instruction was lacking), how many forms/techs they forgot or whatever, you show up you get a belt.

Next, NO contact in sparring. We did at my school because it was me and my brother but everyone else was just point or very light continuous. Everything was learning a technique on a compliant partner and worst of all just doing it in the air. I actually triangle choked a black belt once(i was like a brown or green) and got yelled at the next day from another school owner. Rather than try and teach a defence to the triangle, it was banned along with other grappling, reason being, "its not what we do, wer'e kempo".

In closing, I liked going there, only learned because me, my brother, and instructor/friend beat each other up, and if you want Kempo on LI, go to Ingargiola's.

BTW, the USSD schools that became UMMA close down soon I hear.

[James Funaro]

BTW, I feel the main instructors were real deal, I would not mess with them. It's that they teach for the masses, they don't train you to be like they are. They all sparred and fought as far as I know.

[DAnjo]

WOW, time for me to chime in. As a former student and assistant instructor I have to say, USSD is NOT about fighting. It's about collecting the money ( not in itself evil, we all have to mak money,, and if you can make a fortune on MA, go for it).

However, everyone ALWAYS gets promoted, never have I seen someone fail a belt test. No matter how bad they were ( not their fault because most instruction was lacking), how many forms/techs they forgot or whatever, you show up you get a belt.

Next, NO contact in sparring. We did at my school because it was me and my brother but everyone else was just point or very light continuous. Everything was learning a technique on a compliant partner and worst of all just doing it in the air. I actually triangle choked a black belt once(i was like a brown or green) and got yelled at the next day from another school owner. Rather than try and teach a defence to the triangle, it was banned along with other grappling, reason being, "its not what we do, wer'e kempo".

In closing, I liked going there, only learned because me, my brother, and instructor/friend beat each other up, and if you want Kempo on LI, go to Ingargiola's.

BTW, the USSD schools that became UMMA close down soon I hear.

Sounds like my experiences down to a T.

[James Funaro]

Except I'm being polite. It will get worse the more cocky I get, I'm so glad wer'e done with them, you from the LI area or west coast?

[KenpoDavid]

Next, NO contact in sparring. We did at my school because it was me and my brother but everyone else was just point or very light continuous.

"just point or very light" is not, believe it or not, the same as "NO contact". Check out this video from a school in my home town... they really do practice NO CONTACT sparring. This video may cause intense reaction when viewed and martial discretion is advised :)

http://www.omahamartialarts.com/askj/testing/2006.04.01/ESONZASPAR.mov

[James Funaro]

MY EYES!!!! OK so very light contact for us, but a non-contact hit that was close enough could be scored with. Even the point sparring was not done much at all, once in a while. We had to spar after class when people left.

[natkungfu]

If you want a real martial arts or real shaolin kempo DONT GO TO A MCDOJO!

[natkungfu]

It is to the best of my knowledge that Mattera took over west coast operations whereas Demasco took the East coast. Then they split up.

I heard demasco left ussd.

[natkungfu]

Umm... Master moscitalli prolly spelled wrong. Is the master of connecticut, I train there. lol it's funny to hear that. He's a really nice guy. And no they don't let RED BELTS run dojos. lol you guys come up with some misconceptions. Does villari run acadeny of kempo martial arts? :)

B.S. Pal! They do let red belts run dojos.

[natkungfu]

I was a 3rd degree before I left a Villari's studios in West Palm Beach Fl. I have had nothing but great experiences with the orginization! Tournaments and all! I cant say I have trained with anyone USSD so I have no comparison, but I can say I (for what it's worth) recommend Villari's! hope it helps :)

Did you notice ussd opened a school a few miles away from you?

[Gufbal1981]

WOW, time for me to chime in. As a former student and assistant instructor I have to say, USSD is NOT about fighting. It's about collecting the money ( not in itself evil, we all have to mak money,, and if you can make a fortune on MA, go for it).

However, everyone ALWAYS gets promoted, never have I seen someone fail a belt test. No matter how bad they were ( not their fault because most instruction was lacking), how many forms/techs they forgot or whatever, you show up you get a belt.

Next, NO contact in sparring. We did at my school because it was me and my brother but everyone else was just point or very light continuous. Everything was learning a technique on a compliant partner and worst of all just doing it in the air. I actually triangle choked a black belt once(i was like a brown or green) and got yelled at the next day from another school owner. Rather than try and teach a defence to the triangle, it was banned along with other grappling, reason being, "its not what we do, wer'e kempo".

In closing, I liked going there, only learned because me, my brother, and instructor/friend beat each other up, and if you want Kempo on LI, go to Ingargiola's.

BTW, the USSD schools that became UMMA close down soon I hear.

Joe Nobody,

First off, I would like to state that I am a former instructor. USSD isn't about fighting, but teaching martial arts should not be just about making money, which is what they make it out to be. Martial arts is a way of life and it's sad that people forget that when they become full time instructors. I know plently of people that teach martial arts and have a real job. They do fine.

I personally know people that have flunked a test, one being myself, because of where I originally came from and not because of what I knew or didn't know. I knew all my material, but I came from a different SKK school, so I was black balled.

I can't blame that studio owner for yelling at you because USSD doesn't teach BJJ. They teach Japanese Jujitsu and not Brazilian. They aren't ever going to teach a defense for a triangle because it's not in their curriculum. Now, they teach self defense. BJJ is great if you are going to a grappling tournament or if you are one and one...however, think about it this way, if you are in the streets, you're not triangle choking a guy when he's got buddies. they are kicking you in the head because you have no way to protect yourself. To do the choke properly, aren't you using your legs to choke and the hands to pull the head down further into the choke? That's how I learned how to do the choke...

You're not being fair to ussd based on your comments. They do shaddy things, but your post doesn't represent that at all. I don't particullarly like ussd, but that's me and a lot of other people.

[natkungfu]

They put red belts on assistant instructors to hide their rank.

This is true.

[Gufbal1981]

I personally LOVE U.S.S.D., And am traning to become an instructor. My instructors are THE nicest people I've ever met before. And the style is very aplliable to the street, while having alot of tradition thrown in. (The shaolin temple endorsement is also good for us.) ;) The grandmasters of ussd are the only two white disciples ever in shaolin history. And the belt system makes you want to strive for your next belt, we don't just give em away. It really makes you feel like you accomplished something. And the tests are very hard. I've been doing this for 3 or 4 years now and i'm just under 1st kyu. (green-brown.) It takes a very long time to get to black belt, and i like that. It's just a really positive enviroment, and we get to go to the shaolin temple again and train with the monks in 2009! :) Lots of kung fu and karate focusing mostly on shaolin animals. Well I hope you got some good info outt'a this. www.ussd.com

I guess you haven't met all the instructors yet. I can tell you stories about instructors that aren't so nice...just nice to your face and then are mean behind your back. There really isn't that much tradition in the system. Do you even know your history? You Kempo is from hawaii which was passed to cerio, then to villari, THEN to mattera, then to DeMasco. Did you know your organization has only been around since 1991? your school was originally called "Fred Villari's United Studios of Self Defense." There's actually a lot of holes in the "techniques" that you say are sooo applicable to the streets. They aren't. some of the techniques will have you getting beaten up. Your "GrandMasters" are not the only ones that have been made white disciples to the shaolin temple. Danjo has the link to others on one of his posts. How fun is it to go to China? You get to sighsee for oh um, 10 days and then you get to train with the monks for what, 2 or 3 hours total? HA! I know places that train with the monks for 6 hours a day for 2 weeks. Did you know that your "shaolin tiger, shaolin dragon, shaolin snake, shaolin crane, and shaolin leopard forms" are not from the shaolin temple? they call them that to not give credit to the master that taught it to steve demasco. sounds like a great bunch of people. maybe you need to just get out of your world of white clouds, sugar plum fairies and rose colored glasses and step back into reality where everyone else lives.

[James Funaro]

Gufbal1981: what if i have more buddies than him? What if we each have no buddies or as I have seen sometimes his buddies won't fight?

The scenario determines the tactics and each tech has a good application, though my first choice would not be a triangle choke on the street, I have used guilitines a few times and grappling to keep top control is a good way for a quick GnP.

On a different note my point was not that USSD should have taught a counter to my triangle choke, but that they shouldn't have criticized it. I would expect more of a "cool triangle choke, but I wouldn't use it too much if I were you, here's how Kempo would deal with this situation so you don't need to rely on a triangle again".

Also, all USSD is not the same I realize that, just a sour experience on my part.

[KempoFist]

Except I'm being polite. It will get worse the more cocky I get, I'm so glad wer'e done with them, you from the LI area or west coast?

Danjo = West Coast
Me = LI

[James Funaro]

Of course I know where you from KempoFist. Should I just get my usernames the same on both sites to make things easier? I like this one better than my other.

[KempoFist]

I forgot who you were... whoops :P

[natkungfu]

I guess you haven't met all the instructors yet. I can tell you stories about instructors that aren't so nice...just nice to your face and then are mean behind your back. There really isn't that much tradition in the system. Do you even know your history? You Kempo is from hawaii which was passed to cerio, then to villari, THEN to mattera, then to DeMasco. Did you know your organization has only been around since 1991? your school was originally called "Fred Villari's United Studios of Self Defense." There's actually a lot of holes in the "techniques" that you say are sooo applicable to the streets. They aren't. some of the techniques will have you getting beaten up. Your "GrandMasters" are not the only ones that have been made white disciples to the shaolin temple. Danjo has the link to others on one of his posts. How fun is it to go to China? You get to sighsee for oh um, 10 days and then you get to train with the monks for what, 2 or 3 hours total? HA! I know places that train with the monks for 6 hours a day for 2 weeks. Did you know that your "shaolin tiger, shaolin dragon, shaolin snake, shaolin crane, and shaolin leopard forms" are not from the shaolin temple? they call them that to not give credit to the master that taught it to steve demasco. sounds like a great bunch of people. maybe you need to just get out of your world of white clouds, sugar plum fairies and rose colored glasses and step back into reality where everyone else lives.


I dont know why Charles Mattera of ussd is affraid of his past and doesnt put Grandmaster Fred Villari for his instructor?

[natkungfu]

Also the ussd china trip you dont test at the shaolin temple you test at the hotel parking lot. :Alien:

I was going to go but my buddy told me that they test in the parking lot AND YOU LEARN ONE FORUM!!!!!!!! You spend two weeks walking around china for $5,000 :confused:

They have a video out the road to china or somthing like that and where it says night training thats the hotel parking lot where they are really testing not training. Good sincerity!!

My buddy got his black belt then and he was not happy. :bang:

He spent like $400 for his black belt because his instructor told him he'd test at the shaolin temple not the holiday inn. :bang:

So before you fork over that $5,000 for the next trip to china think about it for a min or two.

[Gufbal1981]

Gufbal1981: what if i have more buddies than him? What if we each have no buddies or as I have seen sometimes his buddies won't fight?

The scenario determines the tactics and each tech has a good application, though my first choice would not be a triangle choke on the street, I have used guilitines a few times and grappling to keep top control is a good way for a quick GnP.

On a different note my point was not that USSD should have taught a counter to my triangle choke, but that they shouldn't have criticized it. I would expect more of a "cool triangle choke, but I wouldn't use it too much if I were you, here's how Kempo would deal with this situation so you don't need to rely on a triangle again".

Also, all USSD is not the same I realize that, just a sour experience on my part.

Joe Nobody: I was one of the instructors that was not the same as the other instructors and I got booted. That's what happens to the ones that are different and not "company" oriented. I will honestly say that most company instructors will never complement you on your grappling skill because they do not possess that skill, so they must put you down. Kempo doesn't deal with triangle chokes because they won't go to the ground because they will try to keep it standing. I would love to see a USSD instructor get caught in a flying triangle choke and see how they deal with that, and then whine and complain.

[James Funaro]

Kempo doesn't deal with triangle chokes because they won't go to the ground because they will try to keep it standing. I would love to see a USSD instructor get caught in a flying triangle choke and see how they deal with that, and then whine and complain.


Well they should deal with them. Thats why I would never go back to most Kempo schools. They want to teach a system but it dosen't evolve. Why can't they teach a defence to a triangle? Regardless of opinion on MMA and such, people watch it and study it. It's something you might encounter in a fight.

Haymakers aren't part of Kempo either but they can defend against them, right? Fighting is always evolving and so should the arts. They don't have to change the training methods (though I would), but new material needs to be introduced. I dislike forms, but why do they rely on old ones? Why rely on techniques made 100 years ago? Shouldn't the masters of today be better than those 100 years ago? If not then they suck and the training sucks. These new and better masters (assuming they are, ideally they would be, but I doubt it) should be evolving the system.

Instead I have seen them modify techniques by punching at a slightly different angle, or using a palm strike rather than a fist. It seems trivial and moronic to me.

We don't drive Model T's anymore because someone made a Toyota Camry, it's better.

[James Funaro]

Actually this seems better. We don't drive Model T's anymore because Ford made a Mustang or whatever. It's still a Ford, but it evolved into something better, more useful.

Toyota maybe makes different cars than Ford. However, it keeps making new and better cars that still fit the Toyota way or idea of what a car should be.

All the manufacturer's evolve together due to the same forces, roads are paved now, safety features/ emissions standards required, people demand better gas mileage. They each respond to the problem but they do it in slightly different ways.

Taekwondo, Karate, Kempo, Kung Fu, should all have techniques for triangles( or whatever) but they can all deal with it in their own way.

[Pacificshore]

Taekwondo, Karate, Kempo, Kung Fu, should all have techniques for triangles( or whatever) but they can all deal with it in their own way.
Seems to make perfect sense to me ;)

[dianhsuhe]

Joe Nobody- Quite a bit of negativity... They suck and are morons?

I think the model T's have their redeeming qualities... :)

[James Funaro]

No, they are not morons, I didn't say that. They are missing on making their art more useful by ignoring new trends. That is moronic to me.

No they don't suck in general. Yes they will likely suck when it comes to dealing with new or reemerging techniques. They will suck at defending the triangle if they don't teach how to do it, won't they?

[Gufbal1981]

Well they should deal with them. Thats why I would never go back to most Kempo schools. They want to teach a system but it dosen't evolve. Why can't they teach a defence to a triangle? Regardless of opinion on MMA and such, people watch it and study it. It's something you might encounter in a fight.

Haymakers aren't part of Kempo either but they can defend against them, right? Fighting is always evolving and so should the arts. They don't have to change the training methods (though I would), but new material needs to be introduced. I dislike forms, but why do they rely on old ones? Why rely on techniques made 100 years ago? Shouldn't the masters of today be better than those 100 years ago? If not then they suck and the training sucks. These new and better masters (assuming they are, ideally they would be, but I doubt it) should be evolving the system.

Instead I have seen them modify techniques by punching at a slightly different angle, or using a palm strike rather than a fist. It seems trivial and moronic to me.

We don't drive Model T's anymore because someone made a Toyota Camry, it's better.

I agree with you and I'll give you an answer why they won't teach that defense either. I will tell you that you are pretty much ostracized if you go outside the system to learn anything...you will actually be blackballed if you continue to do so. They don't want to evolve the system...they just want to add more forms to the system. Someday, their version of Kempo will die.

[natkungfu]

Yeah they dont want to add anything to their crappy system.
Gee better not make the art more practical or usefull for street fighting. :woo:

[James Funaro]

OH YEAH, THREAD REVIVAL!!!!!

Do other TMA's suffer from this? I would imagine so. The instructors should always be looking for better and more efficient ways of teaching. Also, they should be looking for improved techniques, new material, and overall improvement of the system.

I would expect that nowadays instructors would be taking courses in or at least be knowledgeable of biomechanics(they have courses at community collegesl), sports medicine/science, personal training, nutrition, and anything else they can get their hands on.

Instead they seem to all just do exactly as those before them. We would not be breaking Olympic records and stuff every few years if all athletes trained the way those 100 years ago did. Why should MA be different? Too much grandmaster balogna and an unwillingness to realize parts of our own arts we cherish suck.

[fire cobra]

Maybe because knocking someone out is the same nowadys as it has always been :)

[James Funaro]

Really? So running a marathon is the same as it always has been. But somehow runners manage to keep breaking records every so often. Athletes today are better than athletes of the past, better training methods, understanding of diet, etc. But the events are still the same.

[fire cobra]

Totally agree with you there joe,my point was that the human body responds to hits in certain areas just as it always has,the old timers from all cultures had/have this knowledge and better nutrition,sport phsycology,bio mechanics etc does not change the fact that bang most people the right way in the right place and they will go :)

[James Funaro]

Of course. But the problem is not where to hit or what type of hand form to use. Its the need for a delivery system(Thornton makes it sound so cool dosen't he??)

Seem like Kempo or whatever might be too technique oriented and it forgets to address exactly how the techniques are going to be delivered. Combination 6 or 11 will hurt, but so much time is spent on learning and repeating the technique instead of actually using it, making it practical.

[natkungfu]

Starting everyone in a boxing stance would be better than a horse stance and make them way better fighters.

[James Funaro]

I think Kempo guys should also focus less on hard blocking and more on slipping and weaving. Every kempo guy I see demonstrates technique opening with a block. Little head movement works in boxing, where they are dealing with plenty of punches, and in MMA to. I know MMA isn't the end all for some but even they deal with punches with body/head movement.

It would put the kempoka (what do they call themselves?) in a much better position to strike in their style, maybe we would see more effective hammers and shutos, at least in non sports fights.

[KempoFist]

Joe, we've been through this time and time again, but I have to say again, the reason alot of people don't want to change is because it a) implies they were inadequate or unknowledgeable prior and b) streamlines all arts and styles into a pseudo-MMA format which runs contrary to their current ideology.

I've long stood that all MA's should run their classes along an MMA-style sparring format to ensure proper aliveness, with the only differences being on the focus of the range they excel at, ie: TKD focus on kicking, Wrestling on takedowns and GnP, boxing hand striking, BJJ ground submissions etc...

Now the problem that comes with that ideal, is that alot of styles and masters of those styles who have spent years making a name for themselves are now marginalized and pushed to the sidelines. Instead of there being hundreds of thousands are arts to choose to train in, only a dozen or so rise to the top in terms or real raw effectiveness at their given specialty. The long overdue Darwinistic purge in MA training would take place, and everyone would have to either adapt or die with the past.

Arts, styles, and schools that train in the often trotted "proven" or "alive" styles would hardly be affected (Judo, Muay Thai, Sambo, Kyokushin, Savate, BJJ, San Shou, Boxing, Kickboxing, Greco Roman Wrestling, Daido Juku etc...) while chest slapping Mcdojo Kempo instructors would suddenly be put in the awkward position to 'put up' where usually their word is gold enough for their students.

[KempoFist]

I should note that the above commentary only should apply to places that advertise "self defense." Obviously there's no purpose for a boxing gym to teach groundwork if their focus is to compete in boxing matches. The same for others.

But rather, I'd say that Japanese Jujitsu schools should follow in the training methodology of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu while staying to the traditions they deem important that the Gracies have pushed to the side, and that Shotokan schools should follow in the way of Kyokushin/Enshin and Daido Juku.

[James Funaro]

Well there is another option for the kempo schools that won't spar or just refuse to stop sucking. I think with all schools, if they won't spar, they should be fighting once in a while. Maybe its immoral or whatever but damn if they just did it and won, we would all have to shut up.

If I can mange to get in fights once in a while I'm sure they can!

[fire cobra]

Personally i think "street fighting" is about getting in first,getting in fast,and getting in hard,once you hit keep hitting and dont stop till your opponent falls,kenpo has some if not most of these elements,vastly different ball game to ring/cage fighting(of which i am involved very much) ring fights have to be paced,and are often very strategic at higher levels,a street type scrap is get stuck in and dont stop! different games but all overlap of course,its good thinking of all this stuff isnt it guys!. Hope everybody enjoys the upcoming holidays and have a great 2007 guys n gals :)

[KempoFist]

Personally i think "street fighting" is about getting in first,getting in fast,and getting in hard,once you hit keep hitting and dont stop till your opponent falls,kenpo has some if not most of these elements,vastly different ball game to ring/cage fighting(of which i am involved very much) ring fights have to be paced,and are often very strategic at higher levels,a street type scrap is get stuck in and dont stop! different games but all overlap of course,its good thinking of all this stuff isnt it guys!. Hope everybody enjoys the upcoming holidays and have a great 2007 guys n gals :)

Good point Cobra. Obviously in a self defense situation, you're not going to be dealing with an opponent pacing himself, keeping his distance trying to pick his shot. This is my biggest divergence from "sports MA" advocates when it comes to teaching self defense. I don't believe in all out role playing scenario training, but addressing situations that seldom occur in the ring/cage that often occur in reality should be an important point. But as Joe said earlier, the "delivery system" of how you handle yourself must be the same. The base physics of how to defend off of a bearhug in a wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu match is the same as in a street altercation. The ingrained techniques and responses gained from proper training translate to raw effectiveness in SD. Everything beyond that is nuancing and fluff, that can help but cannot replace that base delivery system.

[DAnjo]

Well there is another option for the kempo schools that won't spar or just refuse to stop sucking. I think with all schools, if they won't spar, they should be fighting once in a while. Maybe its immoral or whatever but damn if they just did it and won, we would all have to shut up.

If I can mange to get in fights once in a while I'm sure they can!

Joe, what MA do you train in? Your public profile is rather sparse when it comes to information. Some of your comments might be a bit clearer if we knew what perspective you were coming from.

[DAnjo]

Joe, we've been through this time and time again, but I have to say again, the reason alot of people don't want to change is because it a) implies they were inadequate or unknowledgeable prior and b) streamlines all arts and styles into a pseudo-MMA format which runs contrary to their current ideology.

I've long stood that all MA's should run their classes along an MMA-style sparring format to ensure proper aliveness, with the only differences being on the focus of the range they excel at, ie: TKD focus on kicking, Wrestling on takedowns and GnP, boxing hand striking, BJJ ground submissions etc...

Now the problem that comes with that ideal, is that alot of styles and masters of those styles who have spent years making a name for themselves are now marginalized and pushed to the sidelines. Instead of there being hundreds of thousands are arts to choose to train in, only a dozen or so rise to the top in terms or real raw effectiveness at their given specialty. The long overdue Darwinistic purge in MA training would take place, and everyone would have to either adapt or die with the past.

Arts, styles, and schools that train in the often trotted "proven" or "alive" styles would hardly be affected (Judo, Muay Thai, Sambo, Kyokushin, Savate, BJJ, San Shou, Boxing, Kickboxing, Greco Roman Wrestling, Daido Juku etc...) while chest slapping Mcdojo Kempo instructors would suddenly be put in the awkward position to 'put up' where usually their word is gold enough for their students.

I think a lot of application has been lost in the MA schools that don't encourage live training. Over time, techniques that really worked get to be stylized for show and tournaments etc. and lose their effectiveness when one tries to take the "Show Kenpo" etc. and use it in a real altercation be it a contest or real fight. Tournament judges tend to over look solid fighting technique in favor of gymnastics and flashy moves these days and it tends to effect the teaching in the classes.

Another thing is the fact that many parents tend to use MA schools as a form of Off-season little league and that hs its effects also.

[KempoFist]

I think a lot of application has been lost in the MA schools that don't encourage live training. Over time, techniques that really worked get to be stylized for show and tournaments etc. and lose their effectiveness when one tries to take the "Show Kenpo" etc. and use it in a real altercation be it a contest or real fight. Tournament judges tend to over look solid fighting technique in favor of gymnastics and flashy moves these days and it tends to effect the teaching in the classes.

Another thing is the fact that many parents tend to use MA schools as a form of Off-season little league and that hs its effects also.

Good point on the changing of technique in the name of show instead of practicality. I saw that first hand at my old Kempo school where I taught. Certain motions were completely inane, but then a higher rank (usually my instructor/boss) would show me how they used to do it, but that it was changed to make it easier for the student to do, thus moving them through the ranks faster. Another common occurence would be a move getting changed in a technique or kata for seemingly aesthetic purposes only, with the application shown being barely workable on even the most compliant of demonstration partners, let alone a moving fighting opponent.

I heard from my friend how during an instructor meeting they were debating whether in a certain kata whether to put their hand in chamber or open above their head. The common sense answer of "how about on guard?" never seemed to come up, but arguing how ancient Kempo masters would need that stance to block the sun from their eyes as they fought seemed pretty reasonable.

Oh and Dan, Joe is ex-USSD out here with me on LI.

[James Funaro]

Yeah I'll update that profile now. I was USSD. Now I am 1 year into BJJ. I wrestled in high school for 3 years about the same time I was in Kempo. Trained up to 3rd Brown. Boxed for 2 months, but ven though its not much it really helped my standup. Thats why I think boxing is good for Kempo hands because my standup went through the roof after boxing for 2 months, made me look at the game in a new way.

[DAnjo]

Yeah I'll update that profile now. I was USSD. Now I am 1 year into BJJ. I wrestled in high school for 3 years about the same time I was in Kempo. Trained up to 3rd Brown. Boxed for 2 months, but ven though its not much it really helped my standup. Thats why I think boxing is good for Kempo hands because my standup went through the roof after boxing for 2 months, made me look at the game in a new way.

Ah so.

Well, it doesn't surprise me about the boxing you took. I think that many arts, especially the more basic ones, can really benefit someone that takes it seriously even if it's only for a couple of months. There seems to be a learning spike that occurs at the very beginning of training in any martial art. You go from not knowing anything, to being able to perform some rudimentary stuff. I remember, for instance, when I learned how to kick in Shotokan Karate without losing my balance at 11 years of age. I thought I was Chuck Norris! And, as silly as that sounds, I DID have more in common with Norris than all of the people that couldn't do karate kicks at all. That initial spike seperates the neophite martial artist from the great masses of non-MA people out there. It makes you part of the brotherhood. You never look at the martial arts the same after your first couple of months of training. When you look back in the direction that you came from, you see a vast gulf seperating you from the unschooled.

Then, you look the other direction and you see this HUGE mountain that sits in front of you that you must climb if you are to get to the level that your instructor is at. Most never finish the climb. They take the initial skills that they got and quit after a while. Others will add what they have gained to future training of another sort.

Either way, they gained something. I took GJJ for six months from Ralph Gracie's academy. Over all, pure grappling wasn't for me, but boy did it help me out over all as a martial artist! Nothing like rolling with BJJ guys for 6 months to change your grappling world and skill-set. But, I really missed punching and kicking people, so there was no way I was going to do that for too long.

In an interview with Jose Fraguas several years ago, famed Muy Thai Master Surachai Sirisute was asked "How long does it take to become a good Thai Fighter?" His answer follows:

"I know that what I'm going to say may be hard for some to accept for it destroys the notion that a practitioner must train for five or six years to attain the black belt rank. If you work on your conditioning, run, skip rope,hit the Thaipads, the heavy bag, spar and fight once a month, you can become a strong fighter in six months. Stamina, experience, and heart are the basics of Thai Boxing.I believe that the one stnding after the fight is the true expert."

Now this man trained championship teams for years and was himself a champion, and he says "Six months" for Thai Boxing. Now, MT is a fairly basic art, much like American Boxing, so the technique-set isn't very large.

Personally, I'd get bored with that as my main MA diet after a short while, but it's good to know that one can pick up valuable skills from an art like that in a short time and add it to your other training.

[nupe357]

Interesting theread on USSD and Villari....I remember that the martial arts video review website seemed to like Villari's self-defense video (which suprised me a lot).

So what are the differences in terms of technique and training between these two related styles?? Another question: Are their techniques/training similar to Kajukenbo??

Nupe357

P.S. Sorry I just couldn't help re-viving this old thread! :)

[DAnjo]

Interesting theread on USSD and Villari....I remember that the martial arts video review website seemed to like Villari's self-defense video (which suprised me a lot).

Why did it surprise you? Do you have some background in Shaolin Kempo Karate? Did you see the videos and feel that they were not a good representation of SKK?

So what are the differences in terms of technique and training between these two related styles??

They're not related.

Another question: Are their techniques/training similar to Kajukenbo??

No.

[14 Kempo]

Interesting theread on USSD and Villari....I remember that the martial arts video review website seemed to like Villari's self-defense video (which suprised me a lot).

So what are the differences in terms of technique and training between these two related styles?? Another question: Are their techniques/training similar to Kajukenbo??

Nupe357

P.S. Sorry I just couldn't help re-viving this old thread! :)

I can only answer from my own perspective. I was FVSSD and I am now USSD, so I have experience in both, although there was a 10 year gap between them. FVSSD seemed to be more street-wise, while USSD seems to be a bit toned down to meet the needs of the masses. As far as the techniques go, there are slight differences in how they are applied. USSD has implemented changes from the original material in both Combos/DMs and forms, but then this is something that happens in just about any art as it branches out.

And now for the Kajukenbo question, I have no experience there, so I can not answer the question of similarity with any authority and therefore I defer to those that may have that knowledge.

[shaolinmonkmark]

My Shaolin Kempo Karate School teaches us BJJ and Counters to them, as well as MMA and " Practical" street situations, even during kumite sparring.
I went to USSD and yes, they do teach traditionally, but as you go up in ranks( about second degree on up, as a former instructor friend of mine has told us ) the work outs are alot more intense.
As far as " other " schools teaching just " Tradition" well, maybe that's all they just want to teach.
Jeff Speakman has his own kempo tapes called " Kempo 5.0"
And it looks interesting.
He says that you have to evolve and teach what is in your time and future, so your art doesn't die out.
I for one, must agree.
Anyways, check it out so you can see for yourself, and shoot me an email when ya get a chance!

[Nuck Chorris]

My Shaolin Kempo Karate School teaches us BJJ and Counters to them

So what you are saying is that your KEMPO school teaches BJJ?

[shaolinmonkmark]

that is what i am saying, they teach traditional japanese jujitsu, and BJJ, as well as ground and pound.

[Nuck Chorris]

May I ask what the qualifications of the person teaching those discplines might be?

[shaolinmonkmark]

Nucks, they are themselves first degree black belts in BJJ, and second degree in japanese jujitsu and judo.
As for muay thai, he has over 31 years hes been practicing it, and as for shaolin kempo, hes been practicing it for over 25.
Any other questions?
Thanks

[Gufbal1981]

My Shaolin Kempo Karate School teaches us BJJ and Counters to them, as well as MMA and " Practical" street situations, even during kumite sparring.
I went to USSD and yes, they do teach traditionally, but as you go up in ranks( about second degree on up, as a former instructor friend of mine has told us ) the work outs are alot more intense.
As far as " other " schools teaching just " Tradition" well, maybe that's all they just want to teach.
Jeff Speakman has his own kempo tapes called " Kempo 5.0"
And it looks interesting.
He says that you have to evolve and teach what is in your time and future, so your art doesn't die out.
I for one, must agree.
Anyways, check it out so you can see for yourself, and shoot me an email when ya get a chance!

Um, can I ask where this USSD was that he went to that the workouts got tougher at 2nd degree and up? I do agree with how you say the art must evolve and grow or the art will die. What school are you at now? Got a website? I'm interested to see...

[shaolinmonkmark]

north county self defense

[Gufbal1981]

Got a website? I'd like to see it :)

[Nuck Chorris]

I am curious as well. What is the instructor's name and who is he a BB under in BJJ?

Thanks

[James Funaro]

I believe this is the website? North County Self Defence In Carlsbad, California.

http://northcountysd.com/

[BGile]

That would be a great school to attend in my humble opinion. They do some outstanding stuff if what they say they teach is true, and I am sure it is.
Shailonmonkmark mentioning it...

If it was me I'd look into some Sambo rather than the BJJ but that is just me.
They are both great but Sambo is very complete and from what I have seen Sambo is the way to go.

I think with the other arts at this school though you would get a well rounded education of how to fight... :)

Edit:
The website does mention many things other than fighting, (I should say defending ones self). The terms are very similar but the mental aspect is quite different, if you believe in the avoidance and evading techs of the true meaning of what "Kosho Kempo" is all about.

In my line of work in the past it was for protecting others that you are involved in it big time, and sometimes rather than avoid, you have to be an aggressor, but that is only because you are placed in that position because the person has already commited the foul. :woo:

Gary

[shaolinmonkmark]

Glad that you researched it.
We used to be with USSD ALOOOONNNNGGGG Time ago, but ,
Things change, i am sure alot of people would understand.
Thanks for taking the time to look at it, any questions, PM me.

[BGile]

Glad that you researched it.
We used to be with USSD ALOOOONNNNGGGG Time ago, but ,
Things change, i am sure alot of people would understand.
Thanks for taking the time to look at it, any questions, PM me.


Hi, thanks for giving me the heads up and contacting me.

I can see by your web site you are truly into helping with the mental aspect of what self defense is all about and the fact is with out confidence we all are going to fail no matter how good you are at something.

If stress enters the picture and you are unable to handle it, you are going to do something wrong. This is where I see your school coming from, this just by the brief reading I have done at your website. No mater what you want to call it I call it "Kosho" it is all the same, believe me. The inner strength is the factor and I don't mean moving things without touching :D

I'll Pm you and ask a few questions, just so I don't stray :confused: if I am headed that way.

Regards, :)
Gary

[KempoFist]

So the link Joe posted WAS the school?

[Gufbal1981]

So the link Joe posted WAS the school?


Yes sir!

[KempoFist]

Yes sir!

Christ....

:rolleyes:

[karate-dragon]

I have studied Shaolin Kempo for 15 years under an instuctor who studied under Villari in the 70's in New England. It is a good style in that it encompasses a lot of different techniques for multiple situations; and it actually teaches self defense as opposed to just regurgitating katas where you don't understand the moves. The point is there are good and bad instructors as in all professions. It takes time and luck to find the good. What I don't understand are the schools who supposedly are "under" a real master, who then promotes unqualified and unprincipled people, give them "honorary" degrees, so that they fulfill a requiorement that they have to be a certain dan level in order to run a school. Opinions?

[KempoFist]

Opinions?

I have plenty, but I think I beat the horse a long time ago.

[BGile]

I have studied Shaolin Kempo for 15 years under an instuctor who studied under Villari in the 70's in New England. It is a good style in that it encompasses a lot of different techniques for multiple situations; and it actually teaches self defense as opposed to just regurgitating katas where you don't understand the moves. The point is there are good and bad instructors as in all professions. It takes time and luck to find the good. What I don't understand are the schools who supposedly are "under" a real master, who then promotes unqualified and unprincipled people, give them "honorary" degrees, so that they fulfill a requiorement that they have to be a certain dan level in order to run a school. Opinions?


Unfortunatly what we have in many of the systems is just a situation where many are paying to fill someones pocket book. They see that person in a way of life that they would like, (at sometime down the road) but you are going to get the "Peter Principal".

Because someone is good at one thing does not mean they are qualified.

Take George Armstrong Custer for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer


;)

[Matthew Barnes]

I have studied Shaolin Kempo for 15 years under an instuctor who studied under Villari in the 70's in New England. It is a good style in that it encompasses a lot of different techniques for multiple situations; and it actually teaches self defense as opposed to just regurgitating katas where you don't understand the moves. The point is there are good and bad instructors as in all professions. It takes time and luck to find the good. What I don't understand are the schools who supposedly are "under" a real master, who then promotes unqualified and unprincipled people, give them "honorary" degrees, so that they fulfill a requiorement that they have to be a certain dan level in order to run a school. Opinions?


I find that there are many Shaolin Kempo folks that don't know what the moves in their forms are for. In fact, I'd say most. Have you ever used the phrase 'it's a guard' describing any part of two kata? How about three kata?

In the late 70's and early 80's a whole lot of folks came into SKK, and a whole lot of material was added to give the upper ranks something to do. There weren't enough qualified instructors to accomodate the growth rate coming in, and decisions were made to 'fill the gap'. Those people had students who became teachers. The people in power chose growth over quality, and have been paying the price in reputation ever since.

Matt

[meijin10]

Part of the problem with some instructors today is that they are given/awarded Teaching Certificates automaticly with a rank promotion. A student should be given an evaluation or test to obtain a teaching certificate. The teaching certificate is in two parts,
1) an instructors certificate,
2) a rank examiners certificate.
Some instructors are very good at instructing but do not know how to properly evaluate students during a test.
Most stopped this practice and started awarding/givening out teaching certificates automaticly with rank. The reason being two fold,
1) the seniors didn't know themselves,
2) the belief that you automaticly knew everything with higher ranking.
The teaching certification should be done free of charge.
To ensure that you will have a continuing high quality system you must maintain a high quality, highly educated instructors staff.
:cool:

[shaolinmonkmark]

First to Mr. Barnes,
My Master goes over the " BunKai" (hope thats how you spell it) So the person learning the forms do have a knowledge of what you are doing as in terms of our forms/katas.IE... 4 men are surrounding you, north, south, east and west, what attacks they are coming at you with, and what is going on in the forms to ultimately destroy the attackers.
Alot of schools don't do that and the student is left puzzled as to " WHY am I doing this form, its just dumb."
So that's why Iam especially always asking questions, like what if this block was a strike, and this foot movement were a sweep, etc...
I know i could be here all day going on and on, but i will not bore you to death.
By the way, your website is just awesome!!! I go there everyday!!!!
I clearly bow to you and say, " I am not worthy!!!"

To meirjen,
I do agree about with everything you have posted.
Good instructors are the ones who keep the student's THE LONGEST, not just oh MCDOJO into a program, 2 years for a black belt, etc...
At our school, it takes a minimum of 3 years and 6 months for black belt to 5 years.We also incorporate , in order for you to go to second degree, you must have at least 100 hours of BJJ/Jujitsu training practice.
Now alot of martial artists in SKK hate that, and say," Standup fighting so they cannot take you down"
Well, from my experience, it's good to have the insurance that you are well rounded.
Again, i go back to Jeff Speakman, Whether you love or hate the man, he does make a good point, " I do not want my art to just be kempo, but i want it to be kempo and evolve with our time.I can help by doing it now."
To me, that's a very wise person, with an open mind as well.
Other than that, I am behind you on your statement 100percent!!!

[Matthew Barnes]

First to Mr. Barnes,
My Master goes over the " BunKai" (hope thats how you spell it) So the person learning the forms do have a knowledge of what you are doing as in terms of our forms/katas.IE... 4 men are surrounding you, north, south, east and west, what attacks they are coming at you with, and what is going on in the forms to ultimately destroy the attackers.
Alot of schools don't do that and the student is left puzzled as to " WHY am I doing this form, its just dumb."

Yes, bunkai is the correct term. The kata series is 'technique based' so they should be easier, whereas the pinan series is 'principle based' so the 'multi-attacker' scenarios don't hold true. Do you guys use the 'One Kata' through 'Six Kata' series along with pinans and Statue of the Crane? My questions were poking at certain moves in the form that few students, and quite honestly few instructors were able to describe the utility of, and 'it's a guard' became the defacto answer.


So that's why Iam especially always asking questions, like what if this block was a strike, and this foot movement were a sweep, etc...
I know i could be here all day going on and on, but i will not bore you to death.
By the way, your website is just awesome!!! I go there everyday!!!!
I clearly bow to you and say, " I am not worthy!!!"



Asking questions like that is important. Critical thinking is key. It will get you far. I constantly prod the students in my classes to question the information they get, especially from me. If they were to take everything I say as gospel, the best that they could hope for would be as good as me, and that would be sad.

I'm glad you enjoy the website. But I'm sure you're worthy. :o

Matt

[shaolinmonkmark]

Matt,
Sometimes, though, i do get a little " Bothered" by the forms themselves,
And what i mean is that, i constantly close my eyes and imagine in slow motion what i am doing/Could possibly be doing, and sometimes, my mind just gets fried!
Is it me , or do you still go through that mind-fry sometimes??
As for forms, yes, 1 thru 5 pinnan, 1 thru 6 kata, etc..
But with better bunkai then most schools.

[KempoFist]

First to Mr. Barnes,
My Master goes over the " BunKai" (hope thats how you spell it) So the person learning the forms do have a knowledge of what you are doing as in terms of our forms/katas.IE... 4 men are surrounding you, north, south, east and west, what attacks they are coming at you with, and what is going on in the forms to ultimately destroy the attackers.
Alot of schools don't do that and the student is left puzzled as to " WHY am I doing this form, its just dumb."
So that's why Iam especially always asking questions, like what if this block was a strike, and this foot movement were a sweep, etc...
I know i could be here all day going on and on, but i will not bore you to death.

And how many of those moves actually translate into something practical that is then pressure tested and put into use in sparring? I've done countless hours of Bunkai in my day, and in hindsight I regret every moment when I could have been doing something more beneficial for my training like sleeping or watching funny videos on youtube.

To meirjen,
I do agree about with everything you have posted.
Good instructors are the ones who keep the student's THE LONGEST, not just oh MCDOJO into a program, 2 years for a black belt, etc...

My old McDojo kept students on for many years. I tip my hat to their business model. Still wouldn't call them good instructors though.

At our school, it takes a minimum of 3 years and 6 months for black belt to 5 years.

Took me 5.5 to get mine for the record.

We also incorporate , in order for you to go to second degree, you must have at least 100 hours of BJJ/Jujitsu training practice.
Now alot of martial artists in SKK hate that, and say," Standup fighting so they cannot take you down"
Well, from my experience, it's good to have the insurance that you are well rounded.
Again, i go back to Jeff Speakman, Whether you love or hate the man, he does make a good point, " I do not want my art to just be kempo, but i want it to be kempo and evolve with our time.I can help by doing it now."
To me, that's a very wise person, with an open mind as well.
Other than that, I am behind you on your statement 100percent!!!

Good on ya for cross-training and filling in the gaps with your ground game. I only hope that at your school in particular the standup game receives proper and ample attention as well. I roll my eyes at the dozens of Ke?po schools who act like their only flaw is a lack of ground game.

[shaolinmonkmark]

took me bout even 5 years for mine.
My thinking and understanding of bunkai has enabled me to freely incorporate those techniques, from my forms,DM's, and Kempo's into my sparring.
As for my school, we stray away from " Point - Sparring"
and mainly practice " Kumite, anything goes" sparring, but with control!
No we do not "tap" our strikes, but we do smack a " Little" especially after green with brown.
nobody has ever gotten hurt, and hey, we all are having fun!

[BGile]

Hi, I thought some might want to look at these trees.

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/famtrees.html

Gary

[KempoFist]

Hi, I thought some might want to look at these trees.

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/famtrees.html

Gary

This is a better one. You can go right down the list, clicking on the green names of students who became instructors and began lineages of their own http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/m/james_mitose.html

[BGile]

Hi,

It might be better for some things but I prefer the normal pedigree tree.
You see Choki Motobu and know it is not correct.

So when you see that you are then going to see many other items wrong as in Leone (Leoning is correct) so forth and so on.

Much is not right in these trees, but it is an insight, to why others still perpetuate the bad info.

Gary

[Gufbal1981]

Hi, I thought some might want to look at these trees.

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/famtrees.html

Gary

Although you may like that one, there are inaccuracies in it. For one, Charlie Mattera was a 7th degree when he left Fred Villari. He got his 8th from Professor Cerio and we already have a thread for the 9th degree discussion. Frederick J. Villari III on the list is not Fred Villari. Fred Villari is Frederick J. Villari Jr. So, just point out the inaccurate things on there.

[natkungfu]

My Shaolin Kempo Karate School teaches us BJJ and Counters to them, as well as MMA and " Practical" street situations, even during kumite sparring.
I went to USSD and yes, they do teach traditionally, but as you go up in ranks( about second degree on up, as a former instructor friend of mine has told us ) the work outs are alot more intense.
As far as " other " schools teaching just " Tradition" well, maybe that's all they just want to teach.
Jeff Speakman has his own kempo tapes called " Kempo 5.0"
And it looks interesting.
He says that you have to evolve and teach what is in your time and future, so your art doesn't die out.
I for one, must agree.
Anyways, check it out so you can see for yourself, and shoot me an email when ya get a chance!

Your just a Master's slave. As for more intense never saw it.
How about you guff?

[Gufbal1981]

Your just a Master's slave. As for more intense never saw it.
How about you guff?


Not with USSD. I used to watch the 3rd dan workout when i was out of commission and the intensity wasn't any different.

[natkungfu]

Not with USSD. I used to watch the 3rd dan workout when i was out of commission and the intensity wasn't any different.

Each breakaway from Villaris it seems that the training just gets watered down
and less intense.
All the ussd masters now were 1st dans and brown and green belts when the split happened. So how good could they be to the original?

[Gufbal1981]

Each breakaway from Villaris it seems that the training just gets watered down
and less intense.
All the ussd masters now were 1st dans and brown and green belts when the split happened. So how good could they be to the original?

I have no idea. I do know that when Armen left, he said that the first friday workouts were a waste of time and the meeting things made it all too corperate...martial arts shouldn't be corp. that's coming straight from him.

[smelly feet]

Each breakaway from Villaris it seems that the training just gets watered down
and less intense.
All the ussd masters now were 1st dans and brown and green belts when the split happened. So how good could they be to the original?

Good point! USSD only has five or six 5th degree's in their whole system. Hey Gufball doesn't Villari have that many 5th's in Cailfornia alone? Its kind of pathetic that Mattera couldn't get any other high ranking Villari master to come with him. Damasco never got rank from Mattera either before or after he left Villaris. So whats that say about what Damsco thinks about Mattera's martial arts skills? Ok enough too be business partners with but I'll get rank from else where? If thats not a slap to the face I don't know what is?

[Gufbal1981]

Good point! USSD only has five or six 5th degree's in their whole system. Hey Gufball doesn't Villari have that many 5th's in Cailfornia alone?


Actually, I think there are that many in just one of the schools out here...the other schools have a few as well.

[shaolinmonkmark]

Nat:
We are not associated with USSD anymore,.(since 2002!) my master trains with a 10th degree , and a 9th degree from the east coast.we have broken away and joined world martial arts, as our main , and at our school, it is more street realistic than USSD.
As for the instructor work outs, i only "heard" second hand about them.
As for myself, i really couldn't tell you.
Cheers!

[shaolinmonkmark]

i heard something on Demasco:
That he still talks with Fred Villari, on occasion, as he was granted the only person (instructor wise) to still communnicate with him, out of USSD.
I wonder if this is true.
Be funny if he was still receiving private lessons from Villari!!!

[DAnjo]

i heard something on Demasco:
That he still talks with Fred Villari, on occasion, as he was granted the only person (instructor wise) to still communnicate with him, out of USSD.
I wonder if this is true.
Be funny if he was still receiving private lessons from Villari!!!

Well, there'a saying that goes: "If you haven't heard a new rumor by 10 am: start one."

[shaolinmonkmark]

Dan,
I'll find the website i heard it from

[shaolinmonkmark]

here it goes, it says he left, but he has " autonomy."

"1993 Steve DeMasco left Fred Villari and started the East Coast operations of United Studios, becoming partners with Charlie Mattera. This split took place in January. DeMasco was a part of Mattera's operation in name only. He had secured an agreement with Mattera giving him total autonomy. This was especially true of DeMasco's martial arts. He was far superior to Mattera in martial arts ability, and never trained with Mattera. DeMasco did not add any material to the system. He eliminated the material that Villari taught beyond 4th Degree Black Belt. Villari claimed the advanced forms in the system were Shaolin forms. No one knows where the forms actually came from but they are not Shaolin Kung Fu forms. DeMasco had trained in several systems of Kung Fu, including the Praying Mantis system with Pui Chan and the Black Tiger system with Tak Wah Eng. He did not add Kung Fu to his Kempo system but rather made the Kung Fu forms available to students in the system. DeMasco dramatically changed the way the material is done. He added many advanced techniques for generating power in punches and kicks and also made the Jujutsu aspects of the system much more powerful by always controlling the spine directly.

(Please credit: http://www.evolutionkarate.com/KempoHistory.html
Not trying to spread or create rumors, but it is interesting!!!)

[Gufbal1981]

Let me put the rumor to rest...Everyone and anyone that was associated with Fred Villari always seems to talk to him. Even Charlie Mattera talks to him. It's not so unusual. After all, they were all once friends.

[smelly feet]

Actually, I think there are that many in just one of the schools out here...the other schools have a few as well.


In one school alone!! Ha! Villaris only have like three or four schools in Cailfornia and USSD has over a 100. Thats pretty sad.

[smelly feet]

i heard something on Demasco:
That he still talks with Fred Villari, on occasion, as he was granted the only person (instructor wise) to still communnicate with him, out of USSD.
I wonder if this is true.
Be funny if he was still receiving private lessons from Villari!!!

I cant believe Damasco actually talks to Fred. Didn't Damasco screw over Fred and take some of his schools?
Didn't Mattera take like 30 of them? I just cant see Villari ever wanting to speak to either one of his former students.

[DAnjo]

I cant believe Damasco actually talks to Fred. Didn't Damasco screw over Fred and take some of his schools?
Didn't Mattera take like 30 of them? I just cant see Villari ever wanting to speak to either one of his former students.

Really trying to get to fifty posts eh?

[Gufbal1981]

I cant believe Damasco actually talks to Fred. Didn't Damasco screw over Fred and take some of his schools?
Didn't Mattera take like 30 of them? I just cant see Villari ever wanting to speak to either one of his former students.

Ever hear of the phrase "keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer?"

[smelly feet]

Ever hear of the phrase "keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer?"

Yes I have. I just find it hard to believe that Villari would actually talk to these guys that screwed him over.

[DAnjo]

Yes I have. I just find it hard to believe that Villari would actually talk to these guys that screwed him over.

Most of the East Coast Kempo guys seem to have very ...er..flexible views of who their enemy is and who their friend is. One day they're best friends, the next bitter enemies, the next back to friends etc.

Not long ago, there was one high ranking Kempo guy who was called some pretty bad names on the internet, the least offensive of which was "Walking Owl" (because he was supposedly so full of it he couldn't fly) and "Retarded Dwarf".

Well, a few months later when the name caller decided to award this guy's wife with an eighth degree (apparently the wife stayed loyal to the first guy even though he was on the internet calling her husband all sorts of vile things), he immediately went to great lengths to patch things up so he could get promoted too. Now, they're busom buddies again.

So, no. I doesn't surprise me that these guys might be all talking again.

[smelly feet]

Most of the East Coast Kempo guys seem to have very ...er..flexible views of who their enemy is and who their friend is. One day they're best friends, the next bitter enemies, the next back to friends etc.

Not long ago, there was one high ranking Kempo guy who was called some pretty bad names on the internet, the least offensive of which was "Walking Owl" (because he was supposedly so full of it he couldn't fly) and "Retarded Dwarf".

Well, a few months later when the name caller decided to award this guy's wife with an eighth degree (apparently the wife stayed loyal to the first guy even though he was on the internet calling her husband all sorts of vile things), he immediately went to great lengths to patch things up so he could get promoted too. Now, they're busom buddies again.

So, no. I doesn't surprise me that these guys might be all talking again.

Yeah I saw that letter about Pro. Shuras
He has one or two schools at best and he didn't steal 30 of them from George Pesare.
Unless Mattera wants him to buy him out what other reason should he talk to him for?
He can't get any higher in rank from him.

[DAnjo]

Well, I was avoiding mentioning names on purpose, but it's hardly the only such example of ever shifting loyalties out there.

[smelly feet]

Well, I was avoiding mentioning names on purpose, but it's hardly the only such example of ever shifting loyalties out there.

He's a high ranking martial artist and a police officer he can take care of himself. Besides it was all over the net last year.

[meijin10]

Ouch
:o

[Gufbal1981]

Yes I have. I just find it hard to believe that Villari would actually talk to these guys that screwed him over.

Well, he does. Just because they aren't business partners anymore doesn't mean they won't talk. Villari does still talk to Mattera. Mattera actually says he wished he still was friends with him. Danjo is right about the E.C. people though. They are friends one day and then the next day, they are enemies. I think the term that could describe all of them is "Frienemies."

[shaolinmonkmark]

business is business, right?

[KenpoDavid]

Most of the East Coast Kempo guys seem to have very ...er..flexible views of who their enemy is and who their friend is. One day they're best friends, the next bitter enemies, the next back to friends etc.

Not long ago, there was one high ranking Kempo guy who was called some pretty bad names on the internet, the least offensive of which was "Walking Owl" (because he was supposedly so full of it he couldn't fly) and "Retarded Dwarf".

Well, a few months later when the name caller decided to award this guy's wife with an eighth degree (apparently the wife stayed loyal to the first guy even though he was on the internet calling her husband all sorts of vile things), he immediately went to great lengths to patch things up so he could get promoted too. Now, they're busom buddies again.

So, no. I doesn't surprise me that these guys might be all talking again.
AHHHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAhhhhha

thanks Dan, I needed that.

[Gufbal1981]

business is business, right?

Business and friendship should never mix. If it does, you get this exact problem we're talking about.

[smelly feet]

Well, he does. Just because they aren't business partners anymore doesn't mean they won't talk. Villari does still talk to Mattera. Mattera actually says he wished he still was friends with him. Danjo is right about the E.C. people though. They are friends one day and then the next day, they are enemies. I think the term that could describe all of them is "Frienemies."


So you heard Mattera say he still wished he was friends with Villari? So if they are not friends why do they talk?

[Gufbal1981]

So you heard Mattera say he still wished he was friends with Villari? So if they are not friends why do they talk?

I didn't hear it...I heard it from one of his District Managers. They talk because of what I said "Keep your enemies close but keep your enemies closer."

[smelly feet]

I didn't hear it...I heard it from one of his District Managers. They talk because of what I said "Keep your enemies close but keep your enemies closer."


Did they say anything else about Villari that you remember?

[Gufbal1981]

Did they say anything else about Villari that you remember?


Nope. That's it.