Combat-Ki?

[Paratus]

Sorry, second post in 2 days in the same forum.

Anyway, I've heard occasionally about a MA called Combat-Ki. I think it was made by a master of Karate, but I'm not sure. I heard that the students are trained to take extreme hits, and come off without a bruise on them. I was always curious to hear more about it but I can never find much info. Anyone else heard of this or maybe even trained in it?

[thiaboxr2]

I've seen it on the discovery channel or history channel when they were doing a special on the martial arts. They would take punches to the throat by 5 people at a time, take a full power kick to the groin area( male or female ). All of this and more is required for advancement in this style.
This all I know about it. Apparently, only one female has ever made blackbelt in this style At the time of its showing on tv.

Shaolin monks were also known to have trained similiar to this.

[Grifter]

OK i did find much but here it is. Its also called Juko-ryu Ki-Jutsu and seems interesting. I watch some video of a guy that practice this form getting kicked in his groin. He took a few steps back and got this painful look on his face but for the most part he took well. It said he wasnt wearing a cup either. Never even removed his hands from behind his back. Im interested in learning more seeing as all i found out so far was it longer name. ill keep you posted on any new findings.

[Andrew Green]

LOL! Yeah those guys are good for a laugh. Full of *&%^ but good for a laugh....

For as long as there have been people, there have been people claiming to be able to do stupid things. From that came the Carnival, and that is where these guys belong.

[Scotty Dog]

Saw the thing on discovery as well.

:eek: Scary Bunch :eek:

The seminar was a load people in Combat Ki t-shirts Smacking each other in rather delicate places. much as I like the odd smacking I prefer the idea of try not to be hit while doing the hitting.

[Paratus]

Yeah, I didn't think I was alone. I saw the discovery show as well, but there seems so little info about it for some reason. Its very interesting as well, I'd go give it a try if I could

[Andrew Green]

Paratus,

There is a big difference between a cool trick and a useful skill. This is a cool trick, but it is just a trick.

The founder has a mostly made up history.

It is a fraud. As a general rule, anyone that claims something really incredible that will make you invincible is a fraud.

Of course I'm easy to convince. I just want to see one of these guys enter a full contact competition, don't even have to win. Just stand there and take it the whole fight and loose a decision and I'm sold.

But this, like "No touch KO's" and secret death touches is not something you should waste your time with.

[morphus]

yeah i think i've seen this art on tv - didn't seem to concentrate on technique so much, as taking a full force direct hit to vunerble areas on the body - strange to me:confused:

[Cain]

Actually there are people who could pull it off, there was a guy in here who's name had come on the paper who could take 40 "karate" kicks to the groin, hav'nt seen him in action though but the thing is how much they concentrate on this sort of thing rather than actual skills like Andrew said - cool trick or useful skill ;)

You'd be better of trying to learn footwork rather than trying to take hits to the groin!

|Cain|

[pgm316]

The body can take a fair bit of punishment.

But, its still being damaged in the process! :eek:

[SoKKlab]

I have the Discovery Documentary on Video 'Way of the Warrior'.

It did segments on Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninjitsu, Combat Ki etc

The Combat Ki section was bizarre, not only in the 'beliefs' of those taking part but the whole set-up. The Master (Rod?) had a really odd Mid-Western American accent and said things like 'Breath in thru yr nose and Relax' in this strange ethereal twang.

I also remember the Female participant in the Masters test, Shelley, going for the Black Belt test and getting knocked out and then coming around and pretending that she was 'just relaxed' about seven seconds later after being held up by her friends.

Completely failing the criteria of the test, but they passed her anyway, as she was 'just relaxed'.

Problem is with this sort of stuff, is that it's make the participants feel that they are Super(wo)man and any Martial Art that gives its participants that sort of feeling without being able to back it up, is asking for trouble. The word Bollocks comes to mind very loudly.

[Jim]

The word Bollocks comes to mind very loudly.
Well of course it does! That's where they were hit! :D

[SoKKlab]

Yes and that's where they are going :)

[craigwarren]

There are many beliefes, many of them religiouse based. That teach people to seperate their mind from the body. They way it would work would be, your groin gets kicked, it still hurts, and it still does damage, but your mind ignores it. It could be a useful thing being able to ignore pain.

But then again, what happens if someone breaks your leg. Sure you dont feel any pain, but lets see you walk away from that fight (pun intended).

I dunno if this combat-ki is all its cracked upto be from what people have said. But i think it could be possible to ignore pain completly

[grandmaster mat]

what kind of mad man willingly takes hits to his bollocks, what kind of a sick mad man has the heart to do it to another man!

[SoKKlab]

Yeah sure Craig,
ignoring pain is a requisite of any fight.
Adrenalin has alot to do with it, when you're fired up, you don't feel it anywhere near as much.

I'm not necessarily talking about whether or not Combat Ki'sters can ignore pain-maybe they can (Who knows)?

Just that they seem to have the impression that they are breeding Martial Superpeople and that attitude will cause alot of woe and grief, as it can only lead some very niave people into situations that they are not equipped to handle, but believe that they can, through their 'superior training'.

Hey, why walk away from a fight when I've got my Combat Ki?
You can't hurt me, i'm Invincible....

[craigwarren]

Yeh i understadn that. What im saying is that it COULD be good, if they had other skills aswell, skills that would enable them to avoid the pain aswell as simply take it. My example of the broken leg was ment to point out, that sure it might not hurt them, but they cant do anything now can they.

Combat-Ki does seam to be a silly art if it only teaches control of the body to deal with pain, and nothing that could be used to defend yourself.

[SoKKlab]

I think that they teach more than control of the body and dealing with pain. There is a physical core of techniques to the system as well.

I'll have to dig the Doco out again and laugh all the way thru, purely in the name of Journalistic research of course.

I get the impression from it, that there are a bunch of Mid-western American housewives who after training in Combat Ki for a couple of months, now feel that they are Americas NinjaMoms and ready to take on any external threat.

But of course, that's just my impression and I might be totally and utterly wrong. It might be the greatest Martial art ever. But I somehow doubt it...

[Cudgel]

Another thing I noticxed from that segment was that the 'defender' was given enough time to 'prepare' for the strike.
What is taught may have some merit, but waht good is being able to withstand a blow only after you had a brief monet to prepare yourself. IN that brief moment you could be KO'd.

And another thing. I wonder how well it would stand up to a knife or baseball bat of even...gasp....a sword?

[Grifter]

How would you stand up to a knife or any other weapon now?? That how well it would stand up to the same weapon.

[SoKKlab]

Also,
Did you notice in the Doco, that they were not striking each other in the throat, when they said they were?

They were actually tensing the neck and then their opponent was striking the base of the neck, just above the sternal notch, but below the Mid Windpipe/ Adams apple. Ie the base of the neck and not the throat.

A subtle but major difference.

[Andrew Green]

Ok, it is not just ignoring pain, it doesn't work like that.

You take a full force kick to the testies, even if you can completely ignore the pain, there is damage done and you need medical attention.

[Paratus]

So everyone is in basic agreement that this is a shady Martial Art if at all. That it has its merit with some forms of pain control but thats it..........right?

[pgm316]

Yes shady at best, criminal at worst. As an instructor, these people have a responsibility for your health and safety!

I'm sure you couldn't do the same in a fight, its very different to taking one hit in a place your expecting it. :o

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I saw this documentary, and had gotten the impression that the participants were already experienced martial artists, so maybe they have other skills and techniques at their disposal. As far as real world value, what opponent/enemy/bad guy is going to give you time to get ready before he/she hits you?

[Andrew Green]

Umm....

Anyone who had useful skills wouldn't be doing combat-ki...

[pgm316]

Everybody is an experienced martial artist, with usefull skills, that will win in almost all situations, didn't you know that AG!? :D

[smee193]

im a little confused (again) i always thought the idea of a Martial art was not to get hit anyway!

I certainly wouldnt wish to take a kick in the nuts or anywhere for that matter! the Karate i am learning is contact but pulled punches and kicks and we still come away with bruises so a full on wallop would bloody hurt like hell.

Sod that!

of course there are people out there that revell in pain and in pain giving but i always thought they were a bit odd.

i am not masochistic or sadistic so i think ill give combat ki a miss if ya dont mind!

Mark

[Knight_Errant]

This is the kind of martial arts advert that shows quite how stupid human beings can actually be :D

[thiaboxr2]

Imagine going to you first introductory class, getting taught the basic blows; kick to your groin, punch to your throat by 5 people at a time, a full powered elbow to your chest followed by a kick to you chest while you are supported by your classmates. All this while you are in a relaxed state of mind.
I bet you, the students actually go home and ingest some painkillers. Im in pain watching someone else get accidentally kicked in the groin. Its not fun.
I learn plenty from getting a Thia roundhouse kick to the leg when it slips off the pad. I remember quickly. I do not need multi demonstrations to prove its effectiveness.
I'll save the punching for pads not throats.( I would like to eat and drink after class. and accasionally talk every now and then).
The daily shot to the 6 o clock position is out of the question.( kids would be nice someday. I would like to use the washroom and not feel any burning sensation).

With that said, save the art for those who do not have anything to loose or do for that matter. I feel safer that im not doing it!

[Falren]

I find it interesting to read everyone spouting off about how bad a form of martial-arts, that they know little or nothing about is, on these forums. I cant say that my knowledge is extesive about combat ki but i can say:

1) for more info try the Juko-Kai official web page. (it is a form
that they teach).

2) from talking with my instructors it isnt a form that you would
use in an actual fight anymore than you would use ti chi. It
is a good focus exercise, with aspects that you can use
elsewhere. as an example ti chi helps teach the importance
of cordinating breath with technique.

I hope this helps anyone who is smart enough to not write off something that they know little to nothing about.

-Falren

[Andrew Green]

3) It is a fraud, been proven many times. He has a made up history, won't allow outside verification of his claims and does something which is impossible. It is a fraud, its that simple.

This subject has come up many times on many forums and boards, the proof is there if you look for it.

[kempocos]

"Another thing I noticxed from that segment was that the 'defender' was given enough time to 'prepare' for the strike.
What is taught may have some merit, but waht good is being able to withstand a blow only after you had a brief monet to prepare yourself. IN that brief moment you could be KO'd."

I have the same feeling taking three mins. to " get in the zone " is good for a trick but not practical for ANY defense be it a fight or mugging type. It seems like SANCHIN training taking steroids.

[Knight_Errant]

I find it interesting to read everyone spouting off about how bad a form of martial-arts, that they know little or nothing about is, on these forums. It's not a martial art. It's a disease.

[Andrew Green]

I'd say the prep time is more showmanship then anything else.

If they truly where doing what they say they are doing they would require medical attention no matter how much pain tolerance they had. The good news is none of them would ever be able to reproduce either.

[SoKKlab]

In my opinion, it's the greatest form of martial arts ever devised, along with Frog Boxing, Semolina-Jutsu and No-Can-Do (the non-cooperative martial art).

I'm getting myself a Franchise right now, I smell BIG money.

[Kwan Jang]

-Even if what they do was legit (I'm NOT saying that it is), Why spend 20+ years to develop your internal energy to take shots to vital targets (when you ar prepared for the strike that is), when you can become competent in avoiding those strikes or protecting said vitals in a fraction of the time and taking so much less damage while you "develop your skills" I also wondered about "how do you know you'd make a good cliff diver in Alcapulco?" Opps, my head came off, maybe when they reattach this, I shoud find a new hobby.

[Justin]

i saw this on discovery channel

[47Ronin]

i am big into conditioning and stuff but for like my knuckles and stuff. what they do is plain stupid and it is developed by some obese white redneck. what kind of an idiot is going in a fight screeching like a cat waiting to get hit in the nuts. that is just stupid and its not an opinion it shows stupidity up the arse...

[Tireces]

Hey, I think I saw this too! Only the teacher was this skinny kinda guy named "Johnny Knoxville", and it wasn't the discovery channel, it was "Jackass" on MTV. :D

Sorry, but after hearing the description of these demonstrations, this thread was just about asking for it.

[47Ronin]

yeah because juko kai is total b.s.
hahaha.

[Cudgel]

but Tai chi is actually based on combat and is infact taught as selfdefence in places other than the us or Uk.
tai chi can be used to fight combat ki cant unless they can unleash fireballs composed of ki at people

[SoKKlab]

Combat Ki is nothing to do with Tai Chi Chuan and yes there are many great Tai Chi Chuan teachers, who mainly teach it as the Martial Art that it was intended to be.

Problem is, that Tai Chi Chuan was never intended to be taught to beginners. It was intended to be learnt by already experienced Martial Artists who knew many ways of developing and using power in their techniques, hence the name 'Grand-Ultimate'. It was intended to be the highest state of Martial learning.

Going slightly off topic there.

Back on topic-Combat Ki sucks a big one and they have funny squinty eyes....

[kempocos]

Do a search on E-BUDO.COM you will find that the creator lies about his background. The owner of e-budo is being sued for slander, so to prove his point posted letters form associations that prove the man is a liar. Have to respect a person you does research and does not just make statements from what others say.

[SoKKlab]

Yes,
e-Budo have shown some guts on stuff like this in the past.
It's just a pity that non-martial artists who make Documentaries (Like the Discovery Channel 'Way of the Warrior'), can't discern between fakery and reality.

shame shAME SHAME.

[Goju]

Whos this,, peace child and whats with the quotes???

[Paratus]

:D A friend made in the chats who says lots of accidental embarressing things, hope you're having fun in Hawaii PC!

[Virtuous]

Hello all, I've stumbled across this thread and figured I would clarify a few things. I myself have been training in a school affiliated with juko-kai international for 2 years now. My main study is aiki-jutsu along with toide, ken jutsu, kendo, iai jutsu, ninpo, toide, and combat ki. For starters, if you do not believe in the fundamentals of the ki arts and the concept of ki then you will be understandably skeptical.
1. Combat Ki is NOT an all encompassing martial art. It is used to display the effectiveness of using Ki and Ki awareness.
2. In no way are Combat Ki practitioners indestructible nor do we consider our selves to be. (Just so you know, no combat ki will not stop a bladed or piercing attack, from my experience it is only blunt trauma including baseball bats and Jo staffs)
3. There is a good deal of physiological elements involved as well, but they are augmented by using Ki.
4. It is simply an exercise of Ki. The more you do it, the less time you need to prepare, just like any other martial art. I would not expect to enter a fight reliant on combat ki and expect to make it out uninjured, least of all win.

Combat Ki training evolves slowly, a beginner will not walk into a seminar and begin taking full blown shots to the throat, groin, neck, and floating ribs. Ill cover the neck in some detail. To begin conditioning the neck muscles one person would remove their obi and loop it over the conditioners throat in a u shape manner, proceed to lie down on the floor on his or her back behind the conditioner. The conditioner will proceed to drag the dead weight by walking forward. While doing this they will flex the muscles in the neck by doing a dramatic frown (hence the look of anguish. it really isn't a pretty face but it works the required muscles) and breath out there mouth in a controlled forceful breath, this maintains the air passage and prevent the trachea from collapsing. Meanwhile you are using Ki techniques to fortify the effects. After an amount of confidence and skill has been acquired, a mild throat punch will be given at the base of the throat. This is to develop a level of comfort with being hit in the throat (as unnatural as that sounds) so when a full forced blow is applied the receiver will not panic and fault on their technique.

I can not remember if they have shown a kick to the floating ribs on the discovery series, but if you have ever broken one of these puppies you know it hurts for months and there isn't much you can do to prevent it from braking if a forceful blow is applied. I myself am fairly fit and have had mine broken (not in combat ki) and I have seen VERY fit people break theirs. Hands down the floating ribs are very fragile. To me watching some one take a kick or punch to this area is a true testament to the effectiveness of Ki.

For Soke Rod Sacharnoski, Combat Ki is his art he developed to show how effective Ki can be when used properly. He also heads many other arts including, Seidokan Karate, Seidokan Toide, Shorin Ryu Karate, Dai Yoshin Ryu Bujutsu amongst a few other. From my research the lineage is proven. Unfortunately I missed what Ebudo had to say, all records regarding Juko Kai have been deleted. So will be bold enough to make an assumption, what ever they said was slanderous and if it was true Soke Rod Sacharnoski wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on and that information would still be posted. As far as I'm concerned he is legit and I have no reason to believe other wise. If you ever have a chance to attend one of his open seminars I would strongly suggest that you attend, he is a vault of knowledge and a serious Martial Artist.
The Discovery channel did put a kind of corny spin on their documentation and focused on the 'Wow' effect. When McGreggor passed out I'm not sure exactly what happened and I myself find the 'she was so relaxed' explanation hard to believe. If I were to guess she simply ran out of breath as the strike made contact. I myself was rather disappointed to see they awarded her a black belt, but like most large organizations there are politics and as long as there are politics people will disagree.

If any one of you would like to see a real demonstration and live in the central Florida area I would be happy to make arrangements for you to come visit us. Possibly even participate.

I did see some one mention about the kick to the groin. well our head master has taken them for many years and has had many children since :).

The major question I've heard is why even do it. Why do people jump out of perfectly good airplanes, cause they can. Seriously though, we use it to demonstrate the power of Ki and the human body.

I hope this has clarified any ill conceived notions of this particular martial art.

Respectfully
Virtuous

[Aegis]

"Soke" Rod apparently doesn't have a legal leg to stand on, hence his not turning up for one court hearing and his inability to file the necessary paperwork to move his own case to the correct location. This, however, is beside the point. There has been more than enough said against Juko-Kai, and all I'll say is that if you want to train in it, fine, but there's so many dubious claims already that I would never go near any Juko-kai club, even if it meant I had nowhere to train. I did read the reams of evidence on e-budo, and feel that if Sacharnoski wants to pursue his case against Mr Cunningham, he stands to lose. Badly.

The thread on the current legal situation (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21008)

Another thread with links to several others (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18568)

The threads seem to be mostly still there, just closed to further discussion. Apologies to the mods if linking to another forum is banned, if so delete them and I'll PM the urls to anyone who wants them.

[Virtuous]

I wont argue, the thread simply asked 'Combat Ki?' seeing I am the only juko kai affiliate here and I have had some actual experience with combat ki and I felt oblidged to share. You can chose to believe Sacharnoski or not, it matters not to me. I have trained with him once in my 2 years with them. All of my training has been under Soke John Wilcox who has my utmost respect and I will train with him untill he has nothing more to teach me. Regardless, you wanted to know what Comabt Ki was all about, I provided you with some information from first hand experience.

[Hakko-Ryu]

Good info. :) I've also heard from sources that practicioners of Juko-Kai suffer long term damage in the end. ??? probably due to frequent abuse of their privates. LOL

[kempocos]

VIRTUOUS - The EBUDO info on Soke Rod Sacharnoski were letters from various Groups On letterhead that proved he lied about his rankings and training history. I can not comment other than I read all the information. I have to agree that in court not only would he lose, any students who payed him for lessons based on that information would have a very good case of fraud against him.

[Virtuous]

Originally posted by Hakko-Ryu
Good info. :) I've also heard from sources that practicioners of Juko-Kai suffer long term damage in the end. ??? probably due to frequent abuse of their privates. LOL

Nope, no long term damage, or short term for that matter. When done correctly of course.

[Aegis]

What about the girl who was KOd on the discovery channel's documentary? Of course, she claimed to have been so relaxed that she fell over, but EVERYONE outside Juko-kai who saw it said she was out cold for several moments. I'd call that pretty conclusive evidence of short term damage.

[Virtuous]

As I said before in my previous post (her name was McGreggor) Im not sure what happened and I can only speculate. I wasnt happy with their explination either and I can only attribute it to poor techniuqe, to be honest I was quite embarrased to watch it. I myself have not been 'Ko'ed' using the same techniuqe.

[yangtaichi]

Originally posted by Falren


2) from talking with my instructors it isnt a form that you would
use in an actual fight anymore than you would use ti chi. It
is a good focus exercise, with aspects that you can use
elsewhere. as an example ti chi helps teach the importance
of cordinating breath with technique.

I hope this helps anyone who is smart enough to not write off something that they know little to nothing about.

-Falren


dude how much do you know `bout taichi?

ok enough off topic for me

i saw this docu on the disco channel like 3 years ago and i found it very informative, i thought the aikido segment was very good. but then the combat ki segment came up and i had this feeling of oh what does that guy say in his quote, deja moo? from researching aikido i do believe control of the ki and hara can yeild amazing results and i think to some extent this could be legit, but i mean comeon that many people could not be that good at ki awarness and manipulation. i mean i can do the unbendable arm but hell will freeze over before i tell my friends to kick me in the mommy-daddy button. The whole time i was watching that docu i kept screaming at the TV, "CRANE LEG FOR GODS SAKE CRANE LEG TO THE KNEE!!"

[47Ronin]

now when people practice juko kai do they even learn how to punch or anything or fight????

[Virtuous]

Originally posted by 47Ronin
now when people practice juko kai do they even learn how to punch or anything or fight????
No they dont teach any striking techniques, since it is a secondary art you are expected to know how to strike properly. The Ryu is about focusing and manipulating Ki to protect the body. The term Combat would lead you to believe it is a combatitive ryu but it isnt.

[Paratus]

I'm just glad we finally got someone who practices Combat-Ki/Juko Kai so we can finally get some answers from both sides to clear some things up

[Falren]

the one comment I would like to add since I have seen this mistake made on several messages here and other places....
juko-kai does not equal combat ki. combat ki is one art(or whatever you want to call it) that some, not all, members of juko-kai practice.