Don't say you know a MA...

[camouflagecat]

Just the other day in class we were talking about one guy's work and he told us about someone he was visiting (social worker) attacking him. He said it happens a lot and we all agreed it's a good thing he knows TKD. Then the instructor for the day warned us that if a situation gets out of hand and someone is hurt, it's better not to tell the police you know a martial art because you're in more trouble. What do you think about that? Any experiences or related anecdotes?

[TheMadhoose]

quite the oposite we are taught not to advertise we know taekwon-do but if the proverbial hits the fan ya gotta say you used your training with a reasonable force.Let the lawyers argue about it later

[Cosmo Kramer]

i was wondering about that, how much legal trouble you can get into when a MA gets in a fight. as long as they strike first, and you dont attack them when they are trying to run away i think your usually ok, unless you are clearly trying to hurt them after they are no longer a threat. im not sure on all that though

[Davey Bones]

General Self-Defense Rules from one of the resident MAP attorneys:

1. NEVER throw the first punch.

2. NEVER goad your opponent into hitting you first just to "defend yourself".

3. NEVER throw a punch based on words alone.

4. ALWAYS try to diffuse the situation.

5. ALWAYS try to walk away.

6. ALWAYS meet like force with like force. If he punches, don't crush his larynx, punch back.

7. As the great Kung Fu vid starring Red Shirt taught us, always have a video camera armed and ready :) And make sure your witnesses are better than his :)

[jroe52]

good advice:)

if you want to prepare yourself or your scared of an attack, you dont have to have your hands in your pockets. a good preperation is to "fidget" with your hands, but nothing to noticible... something like "air drying your hands" like your just scratching the back of your hand, having it near your belly... this at least has you 1/2 the distance closer to your guard hand position, rather then having your hands in your pockets or by your side to be smacked in the face

[Haduken]

"1. NEVER throw the first punch.

2. NEVER goad your opponent into hitting you first just to "defend yourself".

3. NEVER throw a punch based on words alone.

4. ALWAYS try to diffuse the situation.

5. ALWAYS try to walk away.

6. ALWAYS meet like force with like force. If he punches, don't crush his larynx, punch back.
"

i think most of this is terrible advice - and whilst it may be the legal way to go about things, it is certainly not the best way to defend yourself.

1) pre-emptive strikes are the best way to come out of any situation. most often the person who throws the first shot wins the fight. - this is not illegal! if you feel that you are in danger, and a situation is about to escalate you can defend yourself.

2)you can not always walk away or run away! it is bad advice to always be looking for this - how are you gonna out run a bunch of 18 year olds in trainers when you are in your work suit and shoes and are not as fast as them? what if you have a wife, girl, friend, child with you?

3) like force for like force?!?!? what rubbish - obviously you must stay with the boundaries of reasonable force - but what is reasonable depends wholly on how much danger you feel you are in. how are you gonna end a confrontation by only matching the aggression of your assailant? you have to take it beyond his control, and take him out fast and aggressivley - i am not advocating excessive violence - once he is no longer a threat walk away - but don't assume you will end him with a punch if he has punched you.

4) never tell the cops you do MA unless specifically asked - and if you are smart you won't be around for them to ask you

[jroe52]

well you have to access the situation. if 3 peeps are ready to jump you , then maybe its ok to strike first lol.

but if a guy just knocked into you and cussed you out and is walking away, maybe its not the best time for a sucker punch? lol

also, if its in broad daylight with tons of witnesses to work against you, you might get screwed. what if you misjudge them and strike first, then you really suck.

[beef]

"1. NEVER throw the first punch.

2. NEVER goad your opponent into hitting you first just to "defend yourself".

3. NEVER throw a punch based on words alone.

4. ALWAYS try to diffuse the situation.

5. ALWAYS try to walk away.

6. ALWAYS meet like force with like force. If he punches, don't crush his larynx, punch back.
"

i think most of this is terrible advice - and whilst it may be the legal way to go about things, it is certainly not the best way to defend yourself.

1) pre-emptive strikes are the best way to come out of any situation. most often the person who throws the first shot wins the fight. - this is not illegal! if you feel that you are in danger, and a situation is about to escalate you can defend yourself.

2)you can not always walk away or run away! it is bad advice to always be looking for this - how are you gonna out run a bunch of 18 year olds in trainers when you are in your work suit and shoes and are not as fast as them? what if you have a wife, girl, friend, child with you?

3) like force for like force?!?!? what rubbish - obviously you must stay with the boundaries of reasonable force - but what is reasonable depends wholly on how much danger you feel you are in. how are you gonna end a confrontation by only matching the aggression of your assailant? you have to take it beyond his control, and take him out fast and aggressivley - i am not advocating excessive violence - once he is no longer a threat walk away - but don't assume you will end him with a punch if he has punched you.

4) never tell the cops you do MA unless specifically asked - and if you are smart you won't be around for them to ask you

The idea is that you need to try as many of those as possible in the circumstance to try and protect yourself from future legal matters. The question was about informing the police (hence legal matters if you end up going to court) if you do an MA? I think BaiKaiGuy has given some good advice from a legal standpoint and it will be well worth noting.

You need to give the impression that you're using minimal force and have tried to calm the situation down as much as possible otherwise you could be in trouble?

Just because you interpreted a situation to be dangerous doesn't mean a court will? Destroying someone may mean they can't fight back and injure you but you may have been able to control your opponent without such force?

Also, what happens if there is CCTV footage and the police decide to investigate without having had a complaint? Plus if they find out you do an MA without having told them they may think you were trying to hide it on purpose?

This advice is for general self-defence situations and it seems good to me?

>1. NEVER throw the first punch.
You should be confident in your ability to block the average everyday Joe's ability to attack you, shouldn't you? Plus it will look like you've attacked the other person?

>2. NEVER goad your opponent into hitting you first just to "defend yourself".
Yes it will look like you're trying to start the fight yourself

>3. NEVER throw a punch based on words alone.
Yep - onlookers may not hear what has been said and will only see you attacking first?

>4. ALWAYS try to diffuse the situation.
Saves you fighting and if any onlookers can hear or see you holding your hands up saying you don't want any trouble (also you just need to turn your hands round and you're in a guard position) then it looks more favourable on you.

>5. ALWAYS try to walk away.
Same as above.

>6. ALWAYS meet like force with like force. If he punches, don't crush his larynx, punch back.
As much as possible. Try to control them without beating them too much - again will look better on you if it goes to court.


When a fight ends it may not be the end of the matter. You need to think what will the repercussions of my action be? Would a court think I've behaved excessively?

[jroe52]

so maybe its not the best idea for me to get my decorative katana everytime i hear something fall in the other room late at night? even though its not a real katana, it still would be fun to scare the heck out of an intruder, much less swing at them and cause them to bleed crazily.

on second thought, its worth going to court! i will say its self defense except for the whole "i just wanted to borrow some eggs, and he cut off 2 inches of flesh"

[Saz]

i think most of this is terrible advice - and whilst it may be the legal way to go about things, it is certainly not the best way to defend yourself.

The thread isn't about the best way to defend yourself, its about how you stand legally.

[SCP_Kensei]

"Don't tell you know MA" Is certainly not sound elgal advice here inb the UK. It is generally accepted by UK courts that training in any martial art officially recognised by the British sports council does not make you less entitled to use "reasonable force" than a non trained individual.
It's only those arts that arent taught as a sport that can cause problems. Even then it's largely down to the perceptions of judge and Jury.

It is usually a strong fdefence in the UK to be abl;e to list verything that you did in the fight and why you did it. Soemthing that can be more easily achieved by a martial artist than a non trained indvidual.

Generally speaking so lonmg as you dont deliberately break anything on an unarmed assailant, and stop attacking when he/she is hjelpless then you should be safe in the eyes of the law. Regardless of your training.

Exceptions: Members of the Police (Serving or ex), armed forces (serving or ex) and professionally trained bodyguards (Currently working). These individuals are bound by law to attempt arrest and restraint on unarmed assailant wiythout the use of strike techniques that would cause damage approximate to actual bodily harm (severe bruising, broken nose etc...).
Of course, Police, and Armed Forces personnel, acting in the line of duty are exempt of this exception so long as they continue to operate within the ru8les and regulations of their profession/rules of engagement.

That's the UK persepctive as I was trained (bear in mind thatwas 5 tyears ago).

Rergarding pre-emptive strike: Less than 5% of self defense cases where pre emptive strike has been used as a defense have gone in favour of the defendant. Judges and juries rarely (very rarely) accept pre-emptive as a full defense; despite it being a recognised defense in statute. Magistartes will also usually go with precedent.
Thats aids, it's uinlikely that your average drunken meathead is going to hurt you with the first punch (unless you forget everything you have ever learned as soon as a fight starts), so taking it then hitting back isn't necessarily such a bad thing.

[Davey Bones]

i think most of this is terrible advice - and whilst it may be the legal way to go about things, it is certainly not the best way to defend yourself.

I'm sorry, you got your law degree where? Oh, right, you didn't. The question from Cosmo was about the parameters of self-defense, not "what random people on the street think is appropriate justice".

[Davey Bones]

I have to respond, my comments are in bold:



1) pre-emptive strikes are the best way to come out of any situation. most often the person who throws the first shot wins the fight. - this is not illegal! if you feel that you are in danger, and a situation is about to escalate you can defend yourself.

Uhm, no. Pre-emtive strikes, generally speaking will accomplish getting you arrested and tossed in jail.

2)you can not always walk away or run away! it is bad advice to always be looking for this - how are you gonna out run a bunch of 18 year olds in trainers when you are in your work suit and shoes and are not as fast as them? what if you have a wife, girl, friend, child with you?

Don't fight the hypo. The hypo assumes you can run, which one should always do first.

3) like force for like force?!?!? what rubbish - obviously you must stay with the boundaries of reasonable force - but what is reasonable depends wholly on how much danger you feel you are in. how are you gonna end a confrontation by only matching the aggression of your assailant? you have to take it beyond his control, and take him out fast and aggressivley - i am not advocating excessive violence - once he is no longer a threat walk away - but don't assume you will end him with a punch if he has punched you.

Resonable force is a very specific term of art, so unless you practice law, it means something completely different to non-lawyers. You are not legally permitted in the states to pull a knife if your assailant is only using fists except in extremem circumstances, for example. It's not legal. I never said "you can end a fight with a punch", as a matter of fact you'll find I never do. But there are specific legalities which are being asked about which clearly you know NOTHING about.


4) never tell the cops you do MA unless specifically asked - and if you are smart you won't be around for them to ask you.

OK, you've just made things worse.

(A) IF you have to defend yourself, you always wait for a cop and report the crime asap. By running, you're practically admitting you went above and beyond what's legally permitted and will likely be charged with assault yourself.

(B) Depending on the circumstances, you need to tell the cops you do MA, they'll figure it out anyway when you get asked "What happened?" and you respond with "Well, I was attacked by this homeless guy who wanted my wallet, he jumped at me and I kicked him in the stomach with a turning back kick". Cops aren't dumb, and many have basic MA knowledge.

[pgm316]

it's better not to tell the police you know a martial art because you're in more trouble.

I've heard this many times, how much truth is there in it?

It doesn't alter the law in any way.

Although I think the best advice is to apply that adivice to everything and say no comment! ;)

[Brad Ellin]

Someone mentioned about "fidgeting" with hands instead of putting in pockets. Better idea, hold hands in front in an "I surrender" position. If there are witnesses (and usually there are) they can ssay you tried to give up but your assialant wouldn't. Also, hands in that position are in an ideal position for defensive counters.

[TheCount]

Just the other day in class we were talking about one guy's work and he told us about someone he was visiting (social worker) attacking him. He said it happens a lot and we all agreed it's a good thing he knows TKD. Then the instructor for the day warned us that if a situation gets out of hand and someone is hurt, it's better not to tell the police you know a martial art because you're in more trouble. What do you think about that? Any experiences or related anecdotes?

THe main issue is the police are still from Joe Public and the polices idea of MA is still Jet Li throwing people through windows and Steven Seagal fighting 40 people without ever being touched. They think knowing MA makes you a brutal headcase who flips out and kills people. They will instantly try to get you extra years due to being more dangerous than average people, i believe this happens in the US. Military troops can get more years for an offence because they are considered more dangerous than normal peoples

[MaS_OyaMa]

I remember many of my past post were ALL bashed for me saying "You should always try to avoid fights as much as possible" so I think I'll be alright in here. :)

First of all, Bai Kai Guy gave some great advice, Haduken, considering cops don't give a CRAP how much Martial Arts you know-- they just want to know who started it, and why the two of you were fighting in the first place.

But anyway-- Cops themselves are taught how to defend themselves with some sort of discipline, so if you tell the Cop you know Martial Arts, I don't think you would get into any trouble- Like I said... they just want to know who started it, and why you were fighting.

-- Thanks

[NeonxBurst]

It's like this, if you get picked up more than once for fighting and they find out you know MA, don't not mention it the second time, or you're in big trouble...... tried it once lol. But I'd say if you have to fight keep your body parts off the center line and get them hands up, and if the cops ASK then yes you know ma, but I'd say it's on a need to know basis.

[DafyddReed]

never say you know a martial art to friends , they will just ask you to do a "jumping spin kick"

[Davey Bones]

I've heard this many times, how much truth is there in it?

It doesn't alter the law in any way.

Although I think the best advice is to apply that adivice to everything and say no comment! ;)

Depends on where you live.

I practice in Pennsylvania, USA. In my jurisdiction, if you have a black belt you are in fact held to a higher standard of care under the law of self-defense and assault than a non-black belt. So, yes, in some jurisdictions, it WILL alter the way in which the law is applied.

[camouflagecat]

Does it help if you've registered your hands as a lethal weapon, I've heard of some people doing this. If you register a firearm you can carry it so does the same thing apply to registered hands?

[Topher]

General Self-Defense Rules from one of the resident MAP attorneys:

1. NEVER throw the first punch.

2. NEVER goad your opponent into hitting you first just to "defend yourself".

3. NEVER throw a punch based on words alone.

4. ALWAYS try to diffuse the situation.

5. ALWAYS try to walk away.

6. ALWAYS meet like force with like force. If he punches, don't crush his larynx, punch back.

7. As the great Kung Fu vid starring Red Shirt taught us, always have a video camera armed and ready :) And make sure your witnesses are better than his :)

For me if i feel threatened enough about the situation i will hit first. If I feel i would be unable to just walk or run away or that they might have a weapon then im don’t want to risk my own life. Theres no way im waiting to get hit (which could cause serious injuries anyway), before i can defend myself. Obviously I’ll judge it per the situation.

Also, what if someone comes into attack you, but you counter with an attack of your own. Technically you've hit them first.

What if your threatened with somthing like "I'll stab you if you dont do what i say..." etc. If it worth the risk.

Lets say someone grabs your arm and pulls you (or grabs you some other way), my initial reaction would be to defend myself in someway.

So lets say you defend yourself but then feel unsafe to stay and wait for the police. What then? If I think i serious injured someone then I wont run, but if they just broke a noise or a few teeth then im not gonna stay if im at risk of further attacks.

[Davey Bones]

Me bolded

For me if i feel threatened enough about the situation i will hit first. If I feel i would be unable to just walk or run away or that they might have a weapon then im don’t want to risk my own life. Theres no way im waiting to get hit (which could cause serious injuries anyway), before i can defend myself. Obviously I’ll judge it per the situation.

That's fine. I simply want people to be aware that there are potential repercussions to decisions like that. I really get tired of this whole "judged by twelve rather than carried by six" mentality that is so prevalent today. Knowing MA does not give people the right to smack people updide the head for looking at them funny, not does it absolve them of liability if they throw the first punch.

Also, what if someone comes into attack you, but you counter with an attack of your own. Technically you've hit them first.

Speaking only for the US as I know squat about UK law, your "technicality" is a bit different than what I am speaking of. Your hypo is "I'm walking down the street, mean homeless dude follows me to my car and tries to hit me so I hit him first because I'm faster and dodged or blocked his attack". That's self-defense. Self-defense is not "Gee, that homeless guy is walking a bit too close and making me nervous. Oh no, now he called my momma a ho because I wouldn't give him a nickle, lemme slug him just in case he's thinking about hitting me".

What if your threatened with somthing like "I'll stab you if you dont do what i say..." etc. If it worth the risk.

Again, only speaking for the states. Depends on the sitch. Is he waving a knife at you? Do you know he's carrying? Or is it just some dumbass punk making a dumbass comment?

Lets say someone grabs your arm and pulls you (or grabs you some other way), my initial reaction would be to defend myself in someway.

Being grabbed qualifies as being attacked. Have fun.

So lets say you defend yourself but then feel unsafe to stay and wait for the police. What then? If I think i serious injured someone then I wont run, but if they just broke a noise or a few teeth then im not gonna stay if im at risk of further attacks.

In that case, I would call from the nearest safe place/cell phone. Filing a report makes you the good guy. Having to be tracked down makes you the bad guy.

[ManabiMashoMan]

I agree with everything BaiKaiGuy says ...


Yes noone wants to be suckerpunched, but regardless of who hits who first when the law comes out, the only that matters is what witnesses say, and in alot of states like in Florida there is a 0 tolerance law to fighting. If another guy breaks all the furniture over your head and beats you senseless you can still go to jail with him even if you didn't defend yourself.

What you have to realise is the police offers don't like to hear that a fight broke out period. They will automaticaly be ready to arrest everyone involved, they don't have time to sit and listen to who hit first. This is why you must make sure your Martial Arts training is seperate from studying the laws around your city and state. Many of you carry weapons too, that is automatic jailtime in my area even if you didnt use them against another person.

I have been in jail and I have been in alot of fights, and bounced at 3 bars where every X-con comes out looking for a fight and usualy they carry guns in thier car and knives on them. I would always say to try to defuse the situation as best as you can, but if the other guy is not peacefull don't let your guard down and be ready to go to jail, not just defend yourself. That's how life is. Especialy if your in a gang fight or around others fighting and you get caught cheering or carrying weapons.

Have fun with your street self defense but its better to know the laws then to know how to fight when you're in a bad situation in a bad place.

[Matt_Bernius]

Ok, I'm going to be in the minority here, and speaking from an RBSD point of view, slightly disagree with BKG's point of view. My perspective is comes from talking with law enforcement folks and qualified self defense people. Please note that this is NOT legal advice.

I'm also going to state that I'm going from the perspective that you feel there is a credible and immediate physical threat to yourself in a given sitution. This is not, to BKG's point, someone is following you and you jump them. Rather, you have entered into some type of confrontation and you firmly believe that it is going to escalate to physical violence.

Then, and only then, can you deply preemtive striking. And what ever response must be kept within the concept of a force continumn (ie. you're concerned for your saftey and you sucker punch the guy to enable you to escape and not you break his arm, his knee, and gouge out an eye).

Now while BKG is definitely correct that you shouldn't throw a preemptive punch based on words, you also need to consider bodily actions. For example is a person is menicingly encroaching on your space and they are saying threatening things too you (ie. "I'm going to beat you into a pulp") and they are bigger than you... well that's a whole different ball game. Should you kill the guy? No... no... no! But if you fully believe that he is presenting a clear and immediate threat, then preemtively striking can be warrented.

Finally, I just need to take the following to task:
>1. NEVER throw the first punch.
You should be confident in your ability to block the average everyday Joe's ability to attack you, shouldn't you? Plus it will look like you've attacked the other person?Never take anything for granted. That's the first rule of self defense and the way that many, MANY martial artists find themselves in bad situations. I speak from personal experience. I got taken to the ground once by a drunk everyday Joe whose haymaker I failed to intercept correctly. He didn't hit me, but his momentum caused him to fall on me and temporarily tied me up on the ground. If his friends had wanted they could have engaged in a round of kick Matt while he's attempting to regain control of the situation.

Quite frankly, only a few people on this board have the experience to say that they should be able to block anything that an everyday Joe could throw in a given situation. And most of those people would side with me in saying you don't want to give anyone a chance to hit you in a real life self defense situation. There are just too many variables, and it's too risky.

Again, I'm not advocating beating people up at the drop of a hat. However, pre-emptive striking has its place, and at least from the people I've talked to here in New York, can be defended, provided that you respond appropriately.

By all means, defusing the situation should always be your first line of defense. Or better yet don't be there. There is very little in this world worth fighting over. But if the fight is unavoidable, and quite frankly I trust my judgement in these things, I have no issue hitting first.

- Matt

[spacefuzz]

I agree with BaiKaiGuy's advice for the most part. As everyone is fond of saying there is an exception to every rule. Ive been attacked by two drunks and both times was able to end the fight with only blocking, never hit them. It wasnt worth it to beat up a drunk guy, you dont have to send them to the hospital to prove you know martial arts. People should be worried about ending fights rather than starting them.

[Haduken]

i agree with Matt... BKG: i couldn't disagree more - i think that you are deluding people into what is really gonna happen when they try the cliche - block and counter rubbish - it is unrealistic - also the police whilst they may be good honest people in themselves, are not generally on your side - they just apply the letter of the law, without exception, and rarely apply common sense and good judgement - get outta there! If the police wanna ask you stuff, just tell them that you were in a bit of a panic after being attacked (understandable and very common) and legged it before the guy got up (also understandable and common) you do not owe your assailant anything. again i am not suggesting killing anyone or going OTT, but remember that he may have mates around the corner - he may get up and have a knife - any number of things - get outta there - tbh, if you end up in court over it and you cannot convince 12 peers that what you did was what you felt was necissary to defend yourself, it probably wasn't

[Davey Bones]

Hadoken, with all due respect, you need a clue.

If I had a dollar for every Simple Assault case where some kid comes into my office and hands me the same line you do, I'd be retired by now.

I thoroughly take offense with your assesment of the police. The only time you're going to come under suspicion? When you run off and disappear. Trust me on that one, I've been working with the police for years and you would be amazed at the things which NEVER get charged.

Thus far you have suggested:

Knee-jerk reactions
Lying to the police

What's next?

[Slindsay]

I have to say that waiting for the first punch is a very very crummy option for self defence. If you think you can block a punch when you dont know when/if it's coming and your trying to verbally defuse a situation at the same time you may be in for a bit of a surprise.

as a simple experiment get a guy to put on a pair of boxing gloves then have him "Start" on you, verball abuse, intimidating behaviour, that sort of thing and see if you manage to block his first swing for you. If you want to make it even harder then have him come in with kicking and shoots as well and try weatching out for all of them at the same time and make sure je doesn't give a mwarning before he does it.

[zanflad]

I have to say that waiting for the first punch is a very very crummy option for self defence. If you think you can block a punch when you dont know when/if it's coming and your trying to verbally defuse a situation at the same time you may be in for a bit of a surprise.
.

I agree, given the option always hit first

[Slindsay]

I agree, given the option always hit first

Actually, I wouldnt want to hit first unless the situation was really messy (Multiple attackers, presence of weapons, etc) I'd much rater go for a quick clinch and wrap up there arms or get some sort of control over them.

[zanflad]

all violent confrontations have the potential to get very messy, i would rather hit first than be picking the glass out of my face or worse,

[Matt_Bernius]

BKG,

What's your take on what I wrote. Again, please keep in mind that in the scenario I imagine:

You've been approached by someone who is verbally, emotionally (granted this is something that is difficult to prove but it's important from a SD mindset), and physically threatening you. You have asked the person to move away and they are continuing to encroach on your space in a threatening manner. And let's assume that they are larger than you (a typical case in an attack scenario).

If I am convinced that they are going to attack me, and lets say that I preemtive strike first, delivering some type of one/two combo. I bloody thier nose (worse case for the moment is break it) and run like the wind. Where does that net out?

How does scenario impact/alter the situation? For example shifting this from daylight to nightime? From a crowded location to a street in a dubious neighborhood? Or having two people encroach on you instead of one?

I don't necessarily agree with Haduken. And I defintitely would not go physical if there is some other way out. But I think at some point a situation passes a point of no return and once you're at that point (provided your trained and mature enough to recognize and react in a responsible way, read as within the force continumm) then preemtive striking can be justified.

Your take please, learnered council...

- Matt

[Davey Bones]

*groan*

There are an awful lot of facts that need to be considered to answer your questions, and this is part of the problem. Which is why certain sweeping statements are pissing me off, lol. I'll try to check the hypo out later, I want to grab lunch and then have to be back in court this afternoon...

[zanflad]

you'll just have to deal with it the best that you can, you can rationalize and debate about how you would deal with it,

but once the adrenalin and fear kicks in its a different ball game.

[Matt_Bernius]

BKG,

I recognize that the law is a nuanced thing and where sweeping statements are going to cause problems. On the flip side, it we need to find some common ground to start with, and acknowledge that good ideas often get misinterpreted and twisted. But I do think it's possible to craft a responsible statement on this.

I guess my view overall is that it's up to the individual to responsibly control the situation at all times. And if you jump ahead in the "force continumm" without provocation in order to maintain control then you're getting yourself in trouble.

- Matt

[Davey Bones]

The problem, however, seems to be that there is suddenly this mob rule mentality floating around this forum. StJ has noted it as well. Suddently everyone and their brother is donning black tshirts, trenchcoats, and saying "damn the law, I'm doing whatever I want". Kinda hard to have a rational conversation when the general tenor of the posters is "shut up, we'd rather drag our knuckles on the ground."

[Davey Bones]

OK, let me try this one now that the venting is done; my responses in bold:

Ok, I'm going to be in the minority here, and speaking from an RBSD point of view, slightly disagree with BKG's point of view. My perspective is comes from talking with law enforcement folks and qualified self defense people. Please note that this is NOT legal advice.

Thanks for being honest ;)

I'm also going to state that I'm going from the perspective that you feel there is a credible and immediate physical threat to yourself in a given sitution. This is not, to BKG's point, someone is following you and you jump them. Rather, you have entered into some type of confrontation and you firmly believe that it is going to escalate to physical violence.

This is where the problem with the law comes in. Nothing is that black and white. Why do you "firmly believe" it's gonna escalate? Gimme more facts, I need more details.

Then, and only then, can you deply preemtive striking. And what ever response must be kept within the concept of a force continumn (ie. you're concerned for your saftey and you sucker punch the guy to enable you to escape and not you break his arm, his knee, and gouge out an eye).

Agreed ;)

Now while BKG is definitely correct that you shouldn't throw a preemptive punch based on words, you also need to consider bodily actions. For example is a person is menicingly encroaching on your space and they are saying threatening things too you (ie. "I'm going to beat you into a pulp") and they are bigger than you... well that's a whole different ball game. Should you kill the guy? No... no... no! But if you fully believe that he is presenting a clear and immediate threat, then preemtively striking can be warrented.

Again, this is going to be situational. Who's making the threats, how old, etc. I need more facts.

[CCM]

I think theres a fundamental difference between self defence rules to keep you out of jail and self defence rules to keep you out of hospital.

ccm

[Matt_Bernius]

BKG,

hopefully my second post went more to those situational issues. Lemme know. Thanks btw for the well thought out responses. I agree that it is very much situational.

- Matt

[Davey Bones]

You're good ;)

And despite your status as a Bullshido member, I still don't think of you as a "knuckle dragger" :love:

[Developing]

Each situation is different and will call for a distinct response. BaiKaiGuy's legal advice was continually sought and with good reason, he knows what he's talking about down to the last detail. The key word being details, that seemed to be the main point of his concern with his dialect with Mr.Bernius. Depending on what the details are will determine the outcome of the legal fate of those involved. (Please take no offense BaiKaiGuy I don't want to speak for you that's what I got from it.)

But I think the original post was more specifically geared to should you say you know martial arts if involved in altercation? I would say no. Unless under very specific circumstances. I've done some security jobs at clubs where everyone working there knew I trained. Should a situation develop there than I have no choice but to acknowledge that I know martial arts because I have several individuals working there who know that I do. And I obviously can't take the chance that one of them will reveal that I do. Now in another scenario with strangers I would similiarly to the club attempt to use words to diffuse the situation but if that failed and I was forced to defend myself than that's exactly what I did and exactly what I would say. I defended myself. I see no reason to mention that I used martial arts to do it.

[Topher]

It's easy for a judge, police or someone to say you shouldn't have done this, or couldn't you have just apprehended the person with the big stick :rolleyes:

Anyone can sit in a chair and critizise your actions, but i wonder how diffrent things would be if that person is in a similar situation.

Of course, if the person defending themself went way overboard, then of course there are consequences, but even in that case - with adranalin, panic, surprise etc sometimes you just dont know how you will react.

The one thing that i worry about is really hurting someone and landing myself in trouble. But then if i dont do enough i could potentially place myself in even more danger.

BKG - in your experiance, do police/judges just see things as black and white, or do they actually see the grays.

Another thing to think about, would the law take into account if the person you injured (minor or serious) had a pervious record (armed robbery, assult etc), or say they were wanted by the police.

[Developing]

From a human standpoint they might but I don't think this will be of much use to you legally. Because there is no law that I know of that lessens the offense of an attack (or self defense that turned into attack) on someone if the person you attacked has a record. And also there's no way that you could have known that unless you knew the person and that's a whole other issue in itself I think.

[Davey Bones]

BKG - in your experiance, do police/judges just see things as black and white, or do they actually see the grays.


It depends on the individual authority, but I can say this: That's one of the reasons I am so anal about telling people they must, let me repeat, MUST call the poplice and report the incident. Anyone involved in the legal system is much more likely to believe you if you cal them instead of them having to hunt you down.

[Matt_Bernius]

Ignoring the bullshido comment (and by the way you seem to quietly read there so you're a lurker :p ).

It depends on the individual authority, but I can say this: That's one of the reasons I am so anal about telling people they must, let me repeat, MUST call the police and report the incident. Anyone involved in the legal system is much more likely to believe you if you cal them instead of them having to hunt you down.

Ok, so let's transform this into a "oh crap, I've had to physically defend myself, what now thread":

BKG - let's play the scenario:

I'm walking home through a seedy part of town after 10pm. I see someone up ahead of me. I cross the street to avoid them. He mirrors and crosses the street. He approaches me and before he gets too close, I ask him if something is wrong. He asks me for a light. I say "I don't have anything, sorry." He starts to close in on me. I say "look I don't have a light, and I don't want trouble, but please don't come any closer." He ignores me, and is now within striking range (both of ours) and his hands are moving into a pocket.

Ok feces meet fan. There’s no one around and my spidey senses are going off the scale. And I basically run over the guy (I hit him in the face/nose and "spear" through his body). Two hits, stun and run. The guy hits the ground and I'm off like a shot.

I make it home. And after a little while the adrenaline ceases pulsing. So now what: I’ll call the police, buttttt…. What should I say? How should I describe the situation? Should I contact a lawyer first? And how and when should I mention that I study martial arts? In the initial report? Or should I wait to see if any criminal or civil charges are filed against me?

- Matt

[snake_plisskin]

Arrrgh. This has been a good conversation throughout, with the exception of the "knuckle draggers", hah hah. I have a few RHETORICAL QUESTIONS. I am no authority on the law, nor can I say there are black/white examples to give. However, here are some thoughts:

1.) Regarding the "preemptive strike" scenario. This is all well and good, but what would happen, and I mean what would happen, if the person who is approaching you actually knew martial arts and was trying to set you up to hit him?

And please, for the love of all that's holy, don't try to tell me that "martial artists would never stoop so low". Hell, here where I live, martial artist "tough guys" in their satin jackets festooned with a Christmas tree's worth of stars, bars, patches and symbols are part of the problem--swaggering black belts out looking for a fight to prove their "skills" against anyone who "stares at them wrong."

Or, maybe it's your new girlfriend's jealous ex-fiancee--the one she, um, you know, "forgot to mention is stalking her" who is approaching you outside her apartment in the parking lot (and asking for that cigarette).

Maybe HIS "feelers" are up. Maybe, because he's just that good, he can actually TELL you're about to strike. What then?

2.) What if the person actually beats you up? I'm serious--what if you actually lose the confrontation, and end up being curb-stomped by some meth'd up madman? When the police arrive, does it serve your interest to tell them you know martial arts--in the, "I'm a black belt at XYZ Shibu, and I did everything I could, but he was insane!" vein.

Everyone always posts these things from the perspective that they're going to stomp the other guy's guts out on the latrine floor. Very few people wonder about what to do if they actually lose the fight.

3.) People go to jail all the time for assault, who don't know martial arts; they're generally perceived by the public as the "bad guys". With the infusion of martial arts into the mainstream--where every health club, gym and YMCA holds some kind of kick boxing, Billy Blanks-ish class, and self-defense seminars are taught by the police to high school girls (at least in the Quakertown School District), is it possible that, if you mention you know martial arts to police--not having run away--that you'll actually be perceived as a "good guy" (or girl)?

My previous example notwithstanding, what cop is going to say to a 5'4", 102 lb girl who just escaped being gang raped by three young thugs, "Listen here, missy, now that you told us you know that 'Tight Cheeks' crap, we gotta haul you off to the slammer, too, because your Chai-neez death blow stuff is too dead-lay for the STREET!" Is it possible that officers will actually look at you, male or female, and say, "You're lucky you know that stuff. Otherwise, you'd probably be a whole lot more hurt."

4.) Is the idea of having studied martial arts kind of irrelevent in a who/what/where/when/why/how police report? I have, before me, an entire Pennsylvania State Police Incident Report and all its supplementary forms.

There are a few things of serious note. As you read what's in there, take note of what's included, and what's not asked for.

a.) Incident report. No mention or reference to anything but "crime or incident" is on this pad-sized, tear-off paper.

The full-size Pennsylvania State Police Incident Report, DOES, however, have several "Check" boxes. Among these are:

a.i.) Offense: criminal mischief, burglary, escape, simple assault, missing person, aggravated assault, terroristic threats, harassment, arson by related offenses, theft by unlawful taking or disposition, controlled substance, drug, device, and cosmetic act, harrassment by communications or address.

a.ii.) A list of checks for police reference, including: INCIDENT PROMPTLY REPORTED BY VICTIM? Can a suspect be named? Evidence at scene to link defender? Can a vehicle be identified with crime? Scene processed for latent prints? Latent prints discovered? Scene checked for witnesses? Neighborhood area canvass? Any witnesses located? Offender information available? Identifiable/traceable property? UNIQUE/UNUSUAL METHOD OF OPERATION? Thought to be connected with known crime pattern? Clean/statistical narcotics message sent?

Now, IF you attack someone who is bent on hurting you, and IF they don't know who you are--and you run away, AND they, being injured, decide to go to the hospital, THEY WILL BE INTERVIEWED BY THE POLICE after their injuries are reported, especially if they say, "I was jumped by some guy!" Gee, imagine that: a criminal LYING to the doctor, nurses, police, and his civil attorney. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but, if you announce to YOUR ATTACKER that you "Know martial arts", it's a relatively easy thing for the police to canvass every dojo, dojang, shibu, and temple in a 35-50 mile area, and start looking for someone, like YOU, who also used a "UNIQUE/UNUSUAL METHOD OF OPERATION" to injure them.

This part of the criminal complaint, however, seems more focused on establishing a pattern or linking it to other crimes, not in hunting down martial artists. However, if you actually use an OBVIOUS martial arts "move" that, to witnesses (usually translated as, "His ten drunken/angry/crazy buddies") this WILL be used to identify you, and from there, to at least have charges pressed against you.

a.iii.) This is followed by the "Narrative", wherein the poor, lost "victim" [also known as the psycho who was going to kill you] gets to dictate to the police how some "Crazed Martial Artist kung fu karate ninja guy" just "out of nowhere" started beating him senseless. After all, he reported it to the police, pronto. The Mad Martial Artist, well...ran away and hid in the dark, just like a Madman would. Can you see how telling someone, before you strike them, "STOP! I KNOW KARATE! BACK OFF!" might, just might, be a prelude for "winning the battle but losing the war" (as his attorneys end up winning your car, your house, and your pension as penance for all the "pain and suffering" you dealt him)?

This is followed by:


b.)Police Criminal Complaint, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania vs. "X".

In the criminal complaint form, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, County of Bucks, it asks who the participants are and whether the signed does "accuse the above named defendant who lives at the address set forth above" or "accuse the defendent whose name is unknown to me but who is described as ___________________" or "accuse the defendent whose name and popular designation or nickname is unknown to me and whom I have therefore designated as John Doe."

The second page asks the victim [the person you "defended yourself against" and to whom you announced your martial proficiency] to write or dicate the following:

The acts committed by the accused were: (set forth a summary of the facts sufficient to advise the defendant of the nature of the offense charged. A citation to the statute allegedly violated, without more, is not sufficient. In a summary case, you must cite the specifice section and subsection of the statute or ordinance allegedly violated.)

Then follows the Affidavit of Probable Cause, followed by numerous screening memos, consents to search, Miranda rights, Police Department Arrest Report [that asks only for "disposition and other information"], Property Receipt [e.g. weapons found, drugs, etc.] and a Search Warrant.

In NONE of the State Police and local police documents is there any reference or concern with "martial arts or other combative physical or dexterity-based skill set".

I also have before me a Medical Examiners's Autopsy Checklist. On this it does look for evidence that might be used against a martial artist.

Now, note that, if you do something that doesn't come across as being "martial art-y", it would be much harder to track you down and arrest you. NOT reporting the incident/assault against you could have disastrous consequences on your family and finances, IF the other person decides, having a bruised ego, or just being generally crafty and devious, to sue you.

And if you actually think "no one will believe them" because they're "a scumbag", think again. No one HAS to believe them; the only thing that is required is that the Law must be held to. And, if they manage to find you at your dojo, and you attest to your innocence, it still means that, if you end up in court, you will be spending days or weeks NOT at your job, NOT making money to pay for your house, and NOT being able to contribute to your family.

The criminal, who has NOTHING going for him in the first place, LOSES NOTHING. And, if the person really IS fishing around for a light in their pocket, and you now show up at the police station reporting how you got that "mugger" (and, say, worst case, it was really an off-duty cop trying to figure out if YOU looked like someone mentioned in the evening briefing, coming in for a closer look....), and the "mugger" already reported it...

So, if YOU report the incident once you get home, saying you know martial arts seems optional. That would be something which would rely upon the advice and consent of your counsel.

--Snake

[Davey Bones]

Ignoring the bullshido comment (and by the way you seem to quietly read there so you're a lurker :p ).

Yes, I am :p


Ok, so let's transform this into a "oh crap, I've had to physically defend myself, what now thread":

OK, hard facts for me to work with, YAY!

I'm walking home through a seedy part of town after 10pm. I see someone up ahead of me. I cross the street to avoid them. He mirrors and crosses the street. He approaches me and before he gets too close, I ask him if something is wrong. He asks me for a light. I say "I don't have anything, sorry." He starts to close in on me. I say "look I don't have a light, and I don't want trouble, but please don't come any closer." He ignores me, and is now within striking range (both of ours) and his hands are moving into a pocket.

At this point, I would let the spidey senses take over and prepare to be hit. Note, I said "prepare to be hit", not "throw a punch".

Ok feces meet fan. There’s no one around and my spidey senses are going off the scale. And I basically run over the guy (I hit him in the face/nose and "spear" through his body). Two hits, stun and run. The guy hits the ground and I'm off like a shot.

Hmmm.... well, you're not talking about pounding the hell out of him, and he kept advancing, so I guess I can't really complain. :p

I make it home. And after a little while the adrenaline ceases pulsing. So now what: I’ll call the police, buttttt…. What should I say? How should I describe the situation? Should I contact a lawyer first? And how and when should I mention that I study martial arts? In the initial report? Or should I wait to see if any criminal or civil charges are filed against me?

Call the cops. YES. You would describe the situation just the way you described it right here. I honestly doubt that charges would be filed on something like this. As for telling them about the Martial Arts, it may very well come up in casual conversation, and as Snake put it, most of them, as long as you stayed withing the realm of reason, would probably just say "good thing you know how to defend yourself."

[Ular Sawa]

I just got to this thead late but I would say most of the stuff here is very thoughtful. I think BKG's initial post of stuff to do and not to do is spot on. I guess the only thing that would worry me is telling the cops about the martial arts training.....which goes to the original question. I think it might depend obviously on the circumstances but also on the jurisdiction or maybe even the responding officers on whether it might go against you.

[Matt_Bernius]

Great posts Snake and BKG! BTW, Snake are you in law enforcement? You seem to be another poster with an inside track.

For the record, my question about when to mention that you're a martial artist is simply that if charges are filed, that seems like the type of thing that would come up quickly during the discovery phase and getting it out in the open might disperse some of the issue.

1.) Regarding the "preemptive strike" scenario. This is all well and good, but what would happen, and I mean what would happen, if the person who is approaching you actually knew martial arts and was trying to set you up to hit him? That isn't a particularly big fear of mine. Though it is worth noting, I'd rather have the iniative nine times out of ten. I'm pretty confident that I'd only get drawn out in the worst of scenarios and while there are good counter hitters out there, I'm pretty confident with my ability to deal with that. Overall that seems to be a pretty low percentage chance.

The fact is that the people I'm most concerned about, without sounding like a survivialist, are street criminals. I'm just not in situations where I might be encountering bar bullies/drunks. And in those cases, I'm confident of my ability to either walk away or make them walk away. So with the case of criminials, I want to do what ever it takes to make sure that they understand as quickly as possible that if they continue to escalate they will risk:

1. getting hurt

or

2. getting caught

Of course if a weapon has come into play, that changes everything and I'm more than happy to comply within reason. It's not worth risking myself in that type of a situation. But if my actions prevent the weapon from coming into play and I can stun and run, more power to me.

Does that make a bit more sense on at least my view on pre-emtive striking?

- Matt

[ManabiMashoMan]

Doesn't matter the scenerio, who ever calls the police first usualy is seen as the one right for most matters. Doesn't matter the scenerio if you use deadly force on another person the police will start to ask you questions, better have a darn good reason.

I would also say to make sure you don't make a loop hole in your story of doing deadly force like saying
"A guy attacked me with a knife, cut my arm, I backed off and then I jumpkicked him in the face, when he fell down he tried to get up and I stomped the back of his spine area."

Because they will tear you apart in court over that and remember self defense is only defense not offense. If the fighters hit and back up. It now becomes a fight ending. The Courts love to tear apart people who were victimised and wait a few minutes then harm the orginal attacker especialy if death is involved.

[Topher]

Doesn't matter the scenerio, who ever calls the police first usualy is seen as the one right for most matters. Doesn't matter the scenerio if you use deadly force on another person the police will start to ask you questions, better have a darn good reason.

I doubt the criminal would call the police first as a) it wouldn't surprise me if he is know to the police and/or has a previous record and b) the police would obviously ask why he was "assulted" and with the amount of CCTV in London (probably one of the most in the world) if would be alot easier to confirm there version of events. And i know this is generalizing quite a bit but i think the police do know the characteristics and image of the typical thug/mugger etc. I think in many cases it would be quite easy to differentiate me from the type of person who would assult me.

[snake_plisskin]

Wow! Excellent posts that address the issue from several points of view. Matt's explanations add new depth to the argument/debate, while Manabi and Homer seesaw from two sides of the possible results, adding clarity.

And the idea of the preemptive strike actually is well taken--doing so would more likely than not unbalance the person, mentally and physically, and also keep them from, well, identifying you beyond being "John Doe". It's amazing what a shot to the head/body can do to the memory.

I agree with Matt--it's not your average barroom type I'd worry about, either. The usual attack there is often clumsy and off balance (imagine Conner MacCleod's first encounter with Ramirez in Highlander...). It's the actual hardened criminals you gotta worry about. Point well noted.

__________________________________________________ ____________

Actually, I'm an English instructor at East Stroudsburg University; a humble servant of academia. But I do have some, mmm, close ties to law enforcement, corrections, and the intelligence community. We all took wildly divergent paths after high school, but we still get together and talk shop. I practice my listening skills and ask for copies of papers, explanations of their practices and work, engage in spirited debate and controlled demonstration, and make lots and lots and LOTS of inquiries--putting into practice the "deep research skill set" I teach my students to use.
__________________________________________________ _____________

And, for everyone's sake, Manabi makes a great point: there is one and only one reason you should ever describe to anyone in an incident where you have to employ deadly force: "I was in fear for my life."

Period. No modification, adjustment, or change. You weren't trying to "scare" them, you weren't trying to just "wing" them, you weren't trying to "beat them up and teach them a lesson." You were in fear for your life. Not your property, not someone else's life, but your life. Got that?

Keep it all coming! I'm curious to know if there are any cases where someone used martial arts to defend themselves and actually got in trouble for using excessive force, or whatever. I'd look up case history, but I'm so tired I can't even think. Training beat the stuffin' outta me tonight!

--Snake

[Haduken]

BKG.. i can't believe you wrote that you would 'prepare to be hit' in that situation - what if he is fumbling in his pocket for a knife? are you still gonna be prepared to be stabbed?NO! you take the initiative in a potentially life threatening situation and take him whilst you have the chance - and before the situation escalates out of your control!

snake: i have a good example for you: a friend of mine was in an altercation as he was leaving work. He is a big lad and looks pretty rough, but he was wearing asuit and tie. A big guy approached him from outta nowhere, and grabbed him by the throat and asked for his wallet. My friend said no... swept his legs, mounted him - and not wanting to be excessive, slapped him across the face, telling him to f**k off... he then got off, and legged it for his bus. he saw the guy in his peripheral vision chasing after him, and gave him an almighty back kick to the guts, upper-cut, swept him again, and mounted him. Thats when the police arrived and promptly believed the other guy (even though he was known to them as a mugger) - who was shouting that he had been assaulted (by a guy in a suit with a briefcase!!). The only reason my friend was not arrested on the spot was because two witnesses ran over and confirmed that the assailant attacked my freind twice!

[Davey Bones]

BKG.. i can't believe you wrote that you would 'prepare to be hit' in that situation - what if he is fumbling in his pocket for a knife? are you still gonna be prepared to be stabbed?NO! you take the initiative in a potentially life threatening situation and take him whilst you have the chance - and before the situation escalates out of your control!



Y'know what... you do things your way, I'll do them mine, ok?

[Haduken]

i guess so... all i can think of is that we have come across very different situations and experiences of both the law, and violent confrontations. One can only base opinions upon experiences

[Davey Bones]

That would seem to be the case.

[Matt_Bernius]

I fully agree that "I was in fear for my life." is a phrase to use. But to BKG's point, the scenario better back it up (and that includes your response to the situation).

Great participation everyone!

- Matt

[CCM]

Ok, lets say you let them hit first, it connects good, you go down, crack head on concrete kerb and dont wake up .. ever.

Is this really a better scenario than a pre-emptive strike and a possible (but unlikely) jail spell ?

Also what's the story if you hit some guy whose threatening your friends or family , would you let someone land one on the misses before hitting them ?

[GeeniusAtWurk]

I didn't read anywhere that BKG said pre-emptive strikes were bad for self defense. They're just touchy from a legal standpoint. But one punch homicides still require an investigation, so you have to fully expect the DA to look at your character (which includes your MA training) in determining whether to charge anything.

If worse came to worse, I'd use a pre-emptive joint lock rather than an all-out strike, because it appears to defuse the situation in a less violent way. But I understand not everyone has jointlocking experience.

About the hitting your wife scenario, more details are needed. Were they tied up or something? Is he between you and your wife, or are you standing right next to her? What size is the guy? Does he look like a tweeker? Are his hands in his pockets? Basically to answer each scenario you'd need a police style questioning about what happened, exactly. One example might net you aggravated assault, while the other one will get you a self defense excuse.

I'm a Criminal Justice major, and in my last criminology class my professor was one of the supervising deputy DA's, with some awesome guest speakers from the Law Enforcement sector. I asked one of them about martial arts after class, and she said something along the lines of, "of course we'll use the fact that they know martial arts in our investigation. it's just one more fact to consider." They're not going to immediately condemn you, but they're also not going to think you're a bruce lee sage-like buddhist monk or something. You just have to accept the fact that they're going to hold you to a different standard, PERIOD.

You can come up with a thousand different scenarios, but you'd have to give exact details on what happened for each one, because the law isn't as sweeping as some people expect. DAs have to try each case by itself, they can't lump up all the aggravated assault cases and try them en masse. Since each one is open to interpretation from both sides of the law, BaiKaiGuy keeps his job :)

[CCM]

I didn't read anywhere that BKG said pre-emptive strikes were bad for self defense. They're just touchy from a legal standpoint.

I think BKG is saying he would always wait to be hit so that he'd have the law on his side, but perhaps i have misunderstood.

[GeeniusAtWurk]

Yeah, that's what I said. He's giving advice with his lawyer hat on, not his self defense one.

[CCM]

I'm not sure BKG feels there is a difference, Im sure he will clarify for us.

[Davey Bones]

As Geenius pointed out, every case is different, which is why I harped on Matt to give me some facts.

Set up a hypo, I'll answer it. To make sweeping generalizations about what does and does not constitute self-defense on an international message board frequented by non-lawyers would be a tad irresponsible, so I tell people to err on the side of caution. I will not be responsible for people making dumb decisions and then blaming me because "I'm a lawyer and said so".

[CCM]

Cool. Just wondered though on your own views, would you ever hit first if you genuinely felt a guy was about to hit you or would you always attempt to block/evade and counter to ensure you could reasonably claim self defence ?

I.e. Where your "rules for self defense" purely from a legal point of view rather than a practical one or do you think there is no difference ?

[Davey Bones]

My personal fighting style leans towards Snake and Crane, both of which focus on distraction, deflection, defense, and deception more than than first strike. Unless a weapon is involved, my comfort zone is deflect, parry, sweep, evade, not much striking unless he or she tries to get in on me or I have to strike to get away. that's more to do with maximizing my strengths and recognizing my weaknesses and finding the appropriate style as opposed to not wanting to hit people.

My rules were from a purely legal standpoint, and I understand that there are fact patterns which necessitate the need for someone to use a pre-emptive strike. I was taking the "legal" position, which always errs on the side of caution, especially because there were a few threads floating around when this one started which advocated "street justice" and "vigilantism" which I obviously do not support, and the testosterone levels were a bit too high, IMO.

[CCM]

Cheers, i get the picture. In an ideal world i'd like to think i would react to the aggressor myself rather than throw the first punch, but some scenarios (multiple attackers for example) I think the best bet would be to strike first and accept the consequences.

[Slindsay]

Allright, I'll jump in with a question about specifics(ish).

If I was confronted by someone and I felt confident that they where winding up to attack me and that they where going to put me down with that strike in all likelihood would I be better off striking them OR shooting in for a takedown or clinch and trying to put them in a submission of some sort? From a legal standpoint obviously.

(Kids, feel free to NOT start going on about stand up vs ground work for self defence, this is purely from a lega standpoint)

[Davey Bones]

*SIGH* LOL.

Ok, since I know nothing about British law, I'll make somehting up as I go along.

Use the tube, the fork could be considered a deadly weapon :D

And why does it seem that the only options are ever hit or clinch? What happened to evade, elude, parry, block, etc? Sheesh, you're all a tough crowd! How manly, me like :D

Anyway, if you've even bothered to read this far, I'll try...

I like Matt's shove idea best. It's innocuous enough that any person off the street can do it, and absent really weird circumstances, the guy you shove as you're running will prolly get nothing hurt but his pride.

[Scarmiglione]

I had a knife pulled on me when i was bouncing one night. being the upstanding FMA'ist i am, i did the only logical thing. Broke his arm with an ASP baton. Cops came, i told them what i do. They knew me already and knew that i don't go around hurting ppl for fun. So the one cop looked at me and said " Well, i'm gonna just disregard that"

Prolly woulda been better if they thought i was the average dolt defending himself. Good thing for me no charges were laid.

[Vanir]

The subject of martial arts came up in my initial security training, where some pretty experienced guys (ex-LEO), told us you're likely to be held up to a higher standard in court than an average guy if you're an MA'ist. The inferrence was it was best not to mention it.

An appearances thing I guess. Police don't want to hear something on the scene like, "oh here's my qualifications in jujitsu and I just love showing them to people obviously,"

but I've plainly explained in work related police statements, "..at this point I tried on an arm lock and couldn't get it so had to throw the guy before I got clobbered."

I mean it's probably a safe bet I've either been watching way too many combat videos or have some sort of combat training, the question just never comes up. And it shouldn't. The point is in where your head was at, if it's in your own martial arts qualifications, it's likely to sound like the whole thing was a challenge of male dominance and had equal input to being caused in the first place.

Don't forget the first rule of criminal proceedings is intent (but not liability issues, that's something else entirely).

[Haduken]

BKG: "What happened to evade, elude, parry, block, etc?" - these are all very well and good, and all come into play naturally once a situation has begun... but why let it go that far? Once you enter this phase of fighting things become much more unpredictable and less easy to control. If you feel you are in danger and an opportunity presents itself I feel it should be taken - and i feel you are perfectly within your rights to do so.
Also I would like to point out that you saying snake and crane styleis mostly 'such and such' is a bit misleading - much of what i do is based on white crane, and i do not consider it to be mostly evasive... it is all in the manner in which you train an art that makes it what it is.

About your shove comment, I have to disagree aswell - if you are in range to shove a guy, you are in range to take him out... by shoving him back all you have done is put him back on level footing, ready for a confrontation, but have also ruined your one chance to take him off guard. equally most street attack scenarios on men are not 1-1, if this guy has mates with him, you are now in a serios trouble (you were already - but ifyou had knocked him out, it may hav deterred his mates, or if not, you have one less to deal with.) I honestly feel that taking things to exytremes is what can save your life - you have to be willing to go farther and do more, not less, than your attacker.
A good example is a story a friend told me. A bunch of guys started trouble on him in a pub. I think there was about 5 of them - but one, as always, was the obvious leader, and the one out front. as this guy got right into my friends face, he realised it was gonna kick off any second, and that he was in real trouble - he couldn't run (there was 5 of them and he was in the middle of a pub... so he started to apologize to the lead guy for whatever slight the guy imagined had occured, and mid sentence head butted him, spun him around and planted his teeth in the guys ears... holding him tightly.... whilst gripping the ear tightly in his teeth (blood was spouting a bit by now) he whispered in the guys ear "tell your mates to go away" - which the guy did... and they all complied quickly. Now this is a pretty rough story, but my point is that if he had tried to evade and counter, he would have been in a very dangerous situation that he would never have been able to control... the other guy would athrown first and his mates woulda jumped in straight away - by taking away the control he imposed his greater will on the situation.

[Davey Bones]

Hadoken:

Well, my definition of the animals comes from my style. Yours are different. There's a shock, differences among a KF community. Talk to Infrazael, and I guarantee his Leopard is different than mine, some styles don't even have Leopard and use Mantis instead (Jason DeLucia's 5 Animals Kung Fu), so I'm hardly surprised your style interprets the animals differently from mine or any other.

As for blocking or parrying... As I said, it's my personal preference, so is shoving. Honestly, all I can really say at this point is do whatever you want, I don't agree with you. From my perspecive, I get to stay on the outside, block and run. *shrug* You wanna go toe-to-toe, go for it. We obviously have different preferences.

As I said earlier, we obviously have different experiences.

[adouglasmhor]

I do not know whether this will be a valuable contribution to the thread or not, but I used a first strike on an attacker in front of over 30 witnesses including 2 policemen.
I was bouncing for a large chain restaurant and 3 guys had to be asked to leave after using sexist and racist language to staff. I knocked them back from one door and the tube on the other door let them in (the FLUB is now a cop, go figure) They started of by harassing a young waitress by commenting on her breast size. She got a male Asian waiter to take over serving them to which one of them made the comment “F off we don’t want served by a Paki we want the bird with the big tits”. When I huckled them out they went with a few grumbles. Then stood on the pavement outside building up courage and talking them selves into fighting. I told the manager to phone the police and I went on the door to stop them gaining entry again. One of them started shouting at me to get my attention when the other came at me from about 2 o’clock with his left hand inside his jacket. I axe handed him on the side of his neck and caught his right arm as he fell so I could stop him hitting the deck with his head and swing him between me and the other muppet in case he felt like stepping up. The other guy stayed out of it but bravely threw a bottle at the door of the restaurant. All four of us were promptly arrested. The guy I hit had an empty bud bottle inside his jacket. They were all charged with breach and released, I was charged with assault and spent the rest of the weekend in the cells before being bailed at court on Tuesday (just my luck it was a bank holiday on the Monday). 3 months later I had to go to court, where I was cleared of any wrongdoing as I was justified in striking first against an opponent who I had good cause to believe and who actually was armed. Though the 3 guys made out I attacked them for no reason (as they were thick they told 3 different versions of the incident making them incredible to the court). So in the words of the great Don Rearic, I beat the rap but did not beat the ride. I actually think this shows the legal system in a good light, it took a while but I got away with no mark on my character or record.

[Haduken]

and that situation is exactly the sort of thing i am talking about. - although i dunno about showing the law in a good light. you had to go to the cells and court for defending yourself - pre emptive strike or not, that is wrong... especially whilst coppers watched! what were they doing all this time btw?
BKG - yes i realise that there are differences, if you read my post that is what i am getting at, i just feel that the differences come from training and intent, rather than the style itself

[adouglasmhor]

I think even though they were goblins they still had the right to make an allegation against me. They were proved wrong in court by due process. But the law should be the same for everyone, even the bad guys. If one person loses their rights we all lose them.
And cops in Scotland are notorious for waiting till a scrap is finished and arresting the wounded afterwards. It saves them a lot of paperwork.

[Matt_Bernius]

On the issue of a shove, systems like Tony Blauer's S.P.E.A.R. use an attack/defense which uses the forearms to strike the body line (see this post for an example of one deployment http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=158952&postcount=9). To many outside observers it might look like a shove, yet it's a kinetic strike that has a huge amount of stopping power.

- Matt

[sliver]

I personally like kurohana's suggestion of the "don't hurt me" stance. That is both hands up in the "I surrender" position. If they were curled into fists it would look like a boxing gaurd, but for some reason with your hands open and palms facing your opponent it looks like surrender. It also puts you in very good position to parry and couter your attacker (particularly if you keep your elbows in so you close off some targets and keep your hands closer to the line which your opponent will have to attack). If you happen to train blocking and countering quite a bit as many close range fighting styles do (wing chun, lung ying, Pak Mei, Tong Long, and many others), from this position you may have the luxury of letting them attempt that first blow with reasonable chance of stopping them and countering.

If nothing else using this tacitc certianly strengthens your self defense claim- you looked like you were trying to give up. If you don't manage to block or counter the first strike, well, I hope you also spar hard and often enough that one punch doesn't loose the fight for you. As for myself, most of what I do wouldn't readily be identified as "martial arts" by the general public (read as I don't do big flashy kicks. A lot of LY players refer to our style as "chinese bar fighting" or "brawling with penache") so unless asked directly I probably wouldn't have to bring up my training. I'm not sure that I would or wouldn't, I think it depends on the situation. Either way I strongly agree with being the one to call the police and file the report, it makes you the U^2C in the eyes of the law.

Also bear in mind, lots of "eye witnesses" didn't really see much and make up the details on their own. Eye wittnesses are always the worst form of evidence either way. This being the case make sure people around you hear you say something (loudly) to the effect of "Hey, I don't want any trouble with you" or "please don't hurt me". May not work for your manly ego, but might just do wonders for the court case. Be well all. And don't let the ego bring you more trouble than it's worth.

[wer]

I personally like kurohana's suggestion of the "don't hurt me" stance. That is both hands up in the "I surrender" position. If they were curled into fists it would look like a boxing gaurd, but for some reason with your hands open and palms facing your opponent it looks like surrender. It also puts you in very good position to parry and couter your attacker (particularly if you keep your elbows in so you close off some targets and keep your hands closer to the line which your opponent will have to attack). If you happen to train blocking and countering quite a bit as many close range fighting styles do (wing chun, lung ying, Pak Mei, Tong Long, and many others), from this position you may have the luxury of letting them attempt that first blow with reasonable chance of stopping them and countering.
There are three escalating defensive postures taught by U.S. police in the RAD (Rape Aggression Defense) courses. All three have the person standing at an angle to the opponent so she's not squared up with her center open, back foot turned out about 45 degrees. First ("cautious contact") is just hands folded in front at hip level; next ("warning contact") palms out in a "stop" type motion with the hands chest or shoulder high, one hand out a little further than the other (it looks like you're trying to calm the person down or you could make it look like you're surrendering); the last ("defensive stance") is flexing the knees more with the front hand open shoulder high and the rear one a vertical fist at your hip.

My Ten Chi Kenpo instructor, who takes his self-defense very seriously, teaches us all to adopt the middle defensive stance as soon as anyone seems threatening since it's not offensive but puts you in an excellent position to protect yourself. Hands aren't overhead in the TV classic "I surrender" pose, since that's too far away to be useful. One of the other instructors in class is a small woman (under 5' and maybe 100 pounds) who is lighting fast in going from that position to submitting her opponent using moves from Wally Jay's Small Circle Jujitsu. I haven't seen her do it "in the street," but from what I've seen in class I really do think it would be very effective (and no cop would ever hassle her about defending herself with it).

The RAD course talks about self defense and the law by saying that you have the right to defend yourself against imminent harm of injury, sexual assault and/or unlawful detention or abduction with appropriate force to extract yourself from the situation. It says that through his violent aggression, the attacker has made the decision for the victim to use force against him. It teaches techniques used in karate (blocks, punches, spear hand, kicks, hammer fist, palm heel strike), says don't bite and scratch since that'll just piss him off, and says the aim should be do strike vulnerable points decisively as soon as possible. But it does assume that she's been attacked first and is responding appropriately; if she knocks the guy out because he leered at her or breaks her boyfriend's arm because he grabbed her arm at a football game, she could get in trouble for using inappropriate force.

It's just a guess, but I'm thinking that in a fight where it's not clear who started it a big guy's going to get more grief from the police than a smaller one -- a small one who knows karate would be seen as learning some skills to defend himself against bullies, whereas a bigger one who knows karate might be seen as someone who likes to fight. Anyone have any evidence for or against that theory?

[sliver]

As to who's going to get more grief from the local law enforcment, I'd say that's very situational and depends on more factors than who's bigger. Most commonly I've seen cops just haul both parties away, and lock them up untill they sort things out, just to be sure they got the right one. So how many times have I actually seen this? About half a dozen when I worked the door for a nightclub a few years ago. Scuffle happens in parking-lot, typicly the cops would just take everyone involved in and sort it out later. Never found out who was finally charged if anyone or with what if anything. There is such thing as "mutual combat" here in California meaning all parties are at fault, pay a fine for disturbing the peace, do whatever time they served, and are sent their seperate ways. It seems this may be a frequently used out for police officers when if it all comes down to one parties word against the others.

[zilla]

Like sliver and kurohana said, i like the open hands "i don't want to fight" approach.

it gives the impression to your attacker AND surrounding witnesses that you are not the aggressor and that you did not want an altercation.

if you happen to have to throw a palm heel strke or a open palm strike to the side of the head, you can say things like "i didn't want to fight.. i just put my hands up and he started running towards me and he ran into my hand" or "he was hysterical and i had to slap him back into reality"