Religion in martial arts

[Smokemare]

People always make that mistake about Jesus. If the people writing the Bible wanted to portray him as just a "good moral teacher" they wouldn't have written what they did. In John 8:58 Jesus is quoted as saying "I tell you the truth,"..."before Abraham was born, I am!". Here Jesus is claiming to be God (I AM is the name that God said he was to be referred to when he spoke to Moses), no "good moral teacher" would make such a claim, Jesus could only have been one of three things: mad, evil or actually who he said he was... God. If he wasn't actually God then the whole of Christianity is a waste of time.

I'm sorry I really have taken us off topic here. As for the Christian TKD school, I don't see anything wrong with it. As a Christian myself I'd be tempted to give such a school a try. I understand why people are saying that religion and martial arts should not be mixed but what you seem to be missing is the fact that most eastern martial arts are very mixed up with religion. Think of all the Chinese and Japanese MAs that are mixed up with Buddhism. Ok TKD is an exception but even that was founded in eastern philosophy. Most MAs talk about the concept of chi energy and many practice meditation, are these things not all rooted in religion? I'd like to know, because I confess I don't know that much about it.


Don't martial arts teach self discipline? It's good to know when to turn the other cheek and when it's necessary to defend yourself and how to defend yourself (or others) if necessary. The Bible does teach that violence is wrong but it does not say that you shouldn't defend yourself or others if someone else attacks you.
Personally I practice TKD because I enjoy the sport. I've never been in a fight and I never intend to get into a fight but if I'm attacked and I'm able to defend myself I will. I've been in sparring competitons but I don't consider that wrong, the object is not to hurt the opponent, it's to score points.

Well, yes, Jesus was allegedly the messiah, but according to the new testament and what Jesus said, well - he never said it was okay to use violence for anything! Think of the garden of gethsemane when John cut the soldiers ear off with his sword. Jesus healed the blokes ear back on an let them arrest him. In fact Jesus never attempted to defend himself, so if you take the new testament literally - well Martial Arts is technically contradictory to that surely?

[Smokemare]

Who is the more moral? The person who lives a moral life for fear of god and aspiring to go to heaven? Or the person who does the same but does it from a selfless desire to do what's right?

I don't live a moral life because of fear of God, my place in heaven is assured because of my faith in Jesus as my Saviour. If it boiled down to wether I had been a good person all my life then I most certainly would not be assured of a place in heaven.

So what we can all do what we want? Repent and accept Jesus as savious etc, and that's fair? What about the people in the world who have never heard of Jesus? They are damned to eternal torment in hell are they?

That's my arguement, people should be bright enough these days to live a decent life without all the fire and brimstone. I was in a Church service some time ago, when the vicar started preaching that how you live your life doesn't matter as much as how often you come to church? Surely that's not what you should teach?

I think you would be hard pressed to find a church these days that preaches fire and brimstone! I agree that that vicar was wrong, was it a C of E church by any chance?

I think that was the particular flavour of christianity, but I've heard it said in several places through proverbs and sermons. The trouble is, Christianity is a bit like a business, they need to come to church to support the organisation which obviously costs alot of money to uphold. Sure they so some good works, but then so do the masons, oxfam, douglas mcmillan, etc. Of course all these organisations have costs to run, that's inevitable - most of them don't need a banner of religion as an excuse to help people though.

Interestingly, the concept of hell was not originally a Christian concept, it was taken from Greek religion, as was the idea of a soul. Alot of Christian folk believe in the soul, but again, the concept was taken from Greek religion. How they do it is there own business, but all religions are there for control over people. That's their main purpose as far as I can see.


The man who lives a selfless altruistic life and constantly strives to help his fellow man but never went to church or believed in god is less likely to get to heavan than a liar/theif/rapist/murder who goes to church alot and repents?

Yes, but only because that person who was a liar/theif/rapist/murderer has repented. If they were like a lot of people who go to church but don't have a personal faith in Jesus as their Saviour then they would not be assured of heaven either.

I can't believe you accept that as fair. Accepting Jesus as saviour cannot atone for the evil that men have done. EVER! So say Hitler turned around at the end of the holocaust, accepted Jesus as saviour and repented of his sins? I'm sure st.Peter would welcome him with open arms at the pearly gate after trying to commit genocide on gods people....

I know that's an extreme example, I hope it doesn't cause offence - but the principle applies.

Sorry but that doesn't wash with me, if there was a god and that WAS his rule then I wouldn't worship him - it's stupid

That's the thing about Christianity, it's not about us earning our way to heaven it's about accepting that we are sinners and accepting the gift of salvation and an assurance of heaven given by God by trusting in Jesus as our Saviour. I have a friend who is not a Christian, he believes that he is a moral person. Not lying, gives to charity, tries to be good to others around him. But he also uses pornography and smokes drugs, one which is degrading to women and the other that is illegal.
The point is it does'nt matter how big the sin, or how many times you do it that matters. It's that you choose to no longer to do that sin and trust God to forgive your sins through the atonment of Jesus on the cross.

Well to me there's some flaws in your asessment of your friends morality. Legality and morality are different. There are laws out there which have nothing to do with morality and it's very dangerous to accept law as a moral code. Pornography, sure it's all a bit seedy, I don't look at the stuff myself, but consenting adults making a living from being filmed/photographed - if they are happy to do that then it's their choice. If they aren't they should get another job. I don't think it said anywhere in the bible, new or old testament that it was a sin to look at porn. Drugs you say? And who said you shouldn't smoke drugs? Lawmakers, politicians, political financial backers of the government who happen to have huge stakes in cigarette companies?

Didn't God say to Adam something about the earth being his for the using, except the fruit from the tree of wisdom? He never said, " Adam, thous shalt not burn and inhale these particualr plants." And speed limits? To go faster than the limit is a sin I suppose too? If that were such a set in stone evil thing to do why do different countries have different speed limits?

If people lived by a few general, simple rules such as treat people how they would like to treated. Do no harm, and try and make the world a better place... Of course that sort of morality is subjective and requires some intelligience to effect. Personally I think alot of people have that intelligience, and shouldn't need to ratify their lives and actions by sitting on cold pews for hours on end singing psalms.

It's been suggested that Jesus actually told his disciples that you don't need the church, and if god is omnipresent why would you? Sure it's nice to meet with people with similar beliefs to you, but the entity that gains most from people going to church is THE church. If he did say that then I don't the church would allow it to e kept in the printed bible.

The same as nowadays nobody reads the apocrapher(sp?) the book between the old testament and the new testament. Which is a shame because there are some fantastic peices of literature within, Tobit particularly is great.

Didn't Jesus say, "Those who have eyes - let them see?" I have eyes, I see, and the concept of religion is screwed. It's caused so much suffering in the world, pointless suffering that in my eyes it can never be forgiven. I don't think it was Jesus fault, I think it's the corrupt church leaders interpretting things how the hell they want and screwing with people's lives for the pursuit of power.

[Nyghtewynd]

Wow. For people who hate Christian prosletyzing so much, there sure is a lot of prosletyzing going on in this thread.

[neryo_tkd]

Wow. For people who hate Christian prosletyzing so much, there sure is a lot of prosletyzing going on in this thread.


prosletyzing? now that word is nowhere to be found in the dictionary :D

[Lefty]

prosletyzing? now that word is nowhere to be found in the dictionary :D
Try
proselytize |?präs?l??t?z| verb [ trans. ] convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another : the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many | [ intrans. ] proselytizing for converts | [as n. ] ( proselytizing) no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds. • advocate or promote (a belief or course of action) : Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas. DERIVATIVES proselytizer noun

Still waiting for MAP version 3.5 with instant spell-check.

[TraditionalTKD]

There are few things in this world more scary than someone who believes they are going to heaven because they believe in Jesus.

[GB-UK]

So what we can all do what we want? Repent and accept Jesus as savious etc, and that's fair? What about the people in the world who have never heard of Jesus? They are damned to eternal torment in hell are they?

No we cannot do what we want, to be a true follower of Jesus then you would follow his teachings. If you said you were a follower but then did things that were wrong, well I think that that would prove that you were not really a christian. As for those who haven't heard of Jesus then they will be judged on their actions in life.

I think that was the particular flavour of christianity, but I've heard it said in several places through proverbs and sermons. The trouble is, Christianity is a bit like a business, they need to come to church to support the organisation which obviously costs alot of money to uphold. Sure they so some good works, but then so do the masons, oxfam, douglas mcmillan, etc. Of course all these organisations have costs to run, that's inevitable - most of them don't need a banner of religion as an excuse to help people though.

Interestingly, the concept of hell was not originally a Christian concept, it was taken from Greek religion, as was the idea of a soul. Alot of Christian folk believe in the soul, but again, the concept was taken from Greek religion. How they do it is there own business, but all religions are there for control over people. That's their main purpose as far as I can see.


You don't actually come to church as the church is the people. The building in which the church meets is wrongly called the church. Oxfam is a christian charity. Never heard of Douglas McMillan.
The Christian concept of hell aswell as it's concept of the soul comes from Judaism and not Greek religion. With Hell being based on Shoel the huge rubbish tip outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem. You may think that religion is to control people and many do, but not all are tarred with the same brush.

I can't believe you accept that as fair. Accepting Jesus as saviour cannot atone for the evil that men have done. EVER! So say Hitler turned around at the end of the holocaust, accepted Jesus as saviour and repented of his sins? I'm sure st.Peter would welcome him with open arms at the pearly gate after trying to commit genocide on gods people....

I know that's an extreme example, I hope it doesn't cause offence - but the principle applies.

No, believing in Jesus does not atone for the evil that men have done. The sinless sacrifice of Jesus on the cross atones for those sins. And yes I do beleive that if Hitler did really repent and submit himself to God that he would be accepted. Jesus didn't die for only the good people of the world, he died for all the sinners of the world. The apostle Paul helped in the murder of many Christians before his conversion on the Damascus road, did the remaining Christians turn there back on him? No they accepted him as a new brother in Christ.

[i] Well to me there's some flaws in your asessment of your friends morality. Legality and morality are different. There are laws out there which have nothing to do with morality and it's very dangerous to accept law as a moral code. Pornography, sure it's all a bit seedy, I don't look at the stuff myself, but consenting adults making a living from being filmed/photographed - if they are happy to do that then it's their choice. If they aren't they should get another job. I don't think it said anywhere in the bible, new or old testament that it was a sin to look at porn. Drugs you say? And who said you shouldn't smoke drugs? Lawmakers, politicians, political financial backers of the government who happen to have huge stakes in cigarette companies?

No there is no flaws in my assesment. When you choose to break the law then you make a moral choice to do something ilegal. Porn would come under fornaction, Jesus said to even have lustful thoughts about another person was adultry. Who says you shouldn't smoke drugs? The government, doctors, judges, the police. As for the financial backers of the government, it's been illegal in the UK for some time now to accept funds from backers who are involved with big buisiness.

Didn't God say to Adam something about the earth being his for the using, except the fruit from the tree of wisdom? He never said, " Adam, thous shalt not burn and inhale these particualr plants." And speed limits? To go faster than the limit is a sin I suppose too? If that were such a set in stone evil thing to do why do different countries have different speed limits?

And he also never said thou shalt burn and inhale them either. Breaking the speed limits is against the law and if your caught you get fined or even banned. They are there to save life, so should be observed. As for the differing os speed limits in different coutries, you would find that on a whole they are not that much different. The major exception being motorways which do not generally have pedestrians on them.

If people lived by a few general, simple rules such as treat people how they would like to treated. Do no harm, and try and make the world a better place... Of course that sort of morality is subjective and requires some intelligience to effect. Personally I think alot of people have that intelligience, and shouldn't need to ratify their lives and actions by sitting on cold pews for hours on end singing psalms.

The problem with personal morality is that it's personal. Most people would accept what you say, treat people as you would like to be treated, do no harm, try and make the world a better place, as these are Christian values. But when you let people set their own moral ruleset then we get things like the Holocaust happening. As for sitting on cold pews singing psalms, never done it myself.

It's been suggested that Jesus actually told his disciples that you don't need the church, and if god is omnipresent why would you? Sure it's nice to meet with people with similar beliefs to you, but the entity that gains most from people going to church is THE church. If he did say that then I don't the church would allow it to e kept in the printed bible.

Like I said before the church is the people not the building. And people meet together to help each other, to pray together and to praise God. We are told to do it in the scriptures.

The same as nowadays nobody reads the apocrapher(sp?) the book between the old testament and the new testament. Which is a shame because there are some fantastic peices of literature within, Tobit particularly is great.

I think that the many hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics around the world will be upset that you say they don't read the Apocrypha as it's in the scripture.


Didn't Jesus say, "Those who have eyes - let them see?" I have eyes, I see, and the concept of religion is screwed. It's caused so much suffering in the world, pointless suffering that in my eyes it can never be forgiven. I don't think it was Jesus fault, I think it's the corrupt church leaders interpretting things how the hell they want and screwing with people's lives for the pursuit of power.

What suffering around the world is the church causing? Yes there are corrupt church leaders as there are curupt leaders in most organisations around the world. Does that mean the whole church is bad? No!

[GB-UK]

There are few things in this world more scary than someone who believes they are going to heaven because they believe in Jesus.

There are few things in this world more scary than someone who believes that TKD is a traditional art not based on karate. :D

[TraditionalTKD]

Well, the Shotokan guys never cease to impress me with their jump spinning hook kicks and free fighting.
Anyway, that's another thread.

[EternalRage]

Well, the Shotokan guys never cease to impress me with their jump spinning hook kicks and free fighting.
Anyway, that's another thread.

So is talking about religious affliations with martial arts or religion in general. The first post in this thread was about a specific school and a question was asked. All of you keep ignoring neryo...

Also if any of you think that this conversation is headed somewhere and is worth pursuing need to take a look in the religion section of MAP forums (oh yes we do have one). This cyberspace jihad goes nowhere and just gets the atheist vs Christian crap riled up for another internet crusade. Please let science and God have a break, they've existed this long without your help, I believe they can continue to do so without us...

[Nyghtewynd]

Apparently, I'm waiting for that instant spell-check, too. :) My bad.

[GB-UK]

[QUOTE=EternalRage]So is talking about religious affliations with martial arts or religion in general. The first post in this thread was about a specific school and a question was asked. All of you keep ignoring neryo...

Also if any of you think that this conversation is headed somewhere and is worth pursuing need to take a look in the religion section of MAP forums (oh yes we do have one). This cyberspace jihad goes nowhere and just gets the atheist vs Christian crap riled up for another internet crusade. Please let science and God have a break, they've existed this long without your help, I believe they can continue to do so without us...[/QUOTE

Agreed!

[GB-UK]

Well, the Shotokan guys never cease to impress me with their jump spinning hook kicks and free fighting.
Anyway, that's another thread.

I said based upon :D But that would be Christian Karate :Angel:

[Legless_Marine]

those other instructors standing beside me got angry and didn't approve his behaviour but it seems that his religion does not allow him to shake hands with women.

Neryo, this wasn't intended as disrespect, but it is an act of modesty - Islamic men and women aren't allowed to shake hands with members of the opposite sex outside of their family.

It is a question of space, intimacy, and modesty. Similarly, you and I generally wouldn't kiss a stranger upon meeting them. It's not a matter of disapproval or superiority.


The same restrictions apply to Orthodox Jews.

Many times, however, I've seen them greet members of the opposite sex, particularly non-muslims, by placing their hand on their chest and doing a small bow, by way of apology. To my mind, it is a gracious, and acceptable substitute.

It is unfortunately this fellow did not do this - It could be ingraciousness, or there could be other subtleties I am unaware of.

Hope that helps.

[franksv]

I have a church I go to and I used to have a dojang I attended.I never did martial arts in church and I never prayed or read scripture at the dojang.Tkd has a moral code,a code that is suposed to extend past class.Church is the sameway,its supposed to get into every aspect of your life.But for me,the two are separate.Martial arts is for fun,fitness and self defense,with a moral code that is inline with my religous beliefs.But the dojang(martial arts),while positive,is not devine.

Would I join this school?Most likly not.Do I see a problem with it?No,to each his own.

[Smokemare]

So what we can all do what we want? Repent and accept Jesus as savious etc, and that's fair? What about the people in the world who have never heard of Jesus? They are damned to eternal torment in hell are they?

No we cannot do what we want, to be a true follower of Jesus then you would follow his teachings. If you said you were a follower but then did things that were wrong, well I think that that would prove that you were not really a christian. As for those who haven't heard of Jesus then they will be judged on their actions in life.

I think that was the particular flavour of christianity, but I've heard it said in several places through proverbs and sermons. The trouble is, Christianity is a bit like a business, they need to come to church to support the organisation which obviously costs alot of money to uphold. Sure they so some good works, but then so do the masons, oxfam, douglas mcmillan, etc. Of course all these organisations have costs to run, that's inevitable - most of them don't need a banner of religion as an excuse to help people though.

Interestingly, the concept of hell was not originally a Christian concept, it was taken from Greek religion, as was the idea of a soul. Alot of Christian folk believe in the soul, but again, the concept was taken from Greek religion. How they do it is there own business, but all religions are there for control over people. That's their main purpose as far as I can see.


You don't actually come to church as the church is the people. The building in which the church meets is wrongly called the church. Oxfam is a christian charity. Never heard of Douglas McMillan.
The Christian concept of hell aswell as it's concept of the soul comes from Judaism and not Greek religion. With Hell being based on Shoel the huge rubbish tip outside the walls of ancient Jerusalem. You may think that religion is to control people and many do, but not all are tarred with the same brush.

I can't believe you accept that as fair. Accepting Jesus as saviour cannot atone for the evil that men have done. EVER! So say Hitler turned around at the end of the holocaust, accepted Jesus as saviour and repented of his sins? I'm sure st.Peter would welcome him with open arms at the pearly gate after trying to commit genocide on gods people....

I know that's an extreme example, I hope it doesn't cause offence - but the principle applies.

No, believing in Jesus does not atone for the evil that men have done. The sinless sacrifice of Jesus on the cross atones for those sins. And yes I do beleive that if Hitler did really repent and submit himself to God that he would be accepted. Jesus didn't die for only the good people of the world, he died for all the sinners of the world. The apostle Paul helped in the murder of many Christians before his conversion on the Damascus road, did the remaining Christians turn there back on him? No they accepted him as a new brother in Christ.

[i] Well to me there's some flaws in your asessment of your friends morality. Legality and morality are different. There are laws out there which have nothing to do with morality and it's very dangerous to accept law as a moral code. Pornography, sure it's all a bit seedy, I don't look at the stuff myself, but consenting adults making a living from being filmed/photographed - if they are happy to do that then it's their choice. If they aren't they should get another job. I don't think it said anywhere in the bible, new or old testament that it was a sin to look at porn. Drugs you say? And who said you shouldn't smoke drugs? Lawmakers, politicians, political financial backers of the government who happen to have huge stakes in cigarette companies?

No there is no flaws in my assesment. When you choose to break the law then you make a moral choice to do something ilegal. Porn would come under fornaction, Jesus said to even have lustful thoughts about another person was adultry. Who says you shouldn't smoke drugs? The government, doctors, judges, the police. As for the financial backers of the government, it's been illegal in the UK for some time now to accept funds from backers who are involved with big buisiness.

Didn't God say to Adam something about the earth being his for the using, except the fruit from the tree of wisdom? He never said, " Adam, thous shalt not burn and inhale these particualr plants." And speed limits? To go faster than the limit is a sin I suppose too? If that were such a set in stone evil thing to do why do different countries have different speed limits?

And he also never said thou shalt burn and inhale them either. Breaking the speed limits is against the law and if your caught you get fined or even banned. They are there to save life, so should be observed. As for the differing os speed limits in different coutries, you would find that on a whole they are not that much different. The major exception being motorways which do not generally have pedestrians on them.

If people lived by a few general, simple rules such as treat people how they would like to treated. Do no harm, and try and make the world a better place... Of course that sort of morality is subjective and requires some intelligience to effect. Personally I think alot of people have that intelligience, and shouldn't need to ratify their lives and actions by sitting on cold pews for hours on end singing psalms.

The problem with personal morality is that it's personal. Most people would accept what you say, treat people as you would like to be treated, do no harm, try and make the world a better place, as these are Christian values. But when you let people set their own moral ruleset then we get things like the Holocaust happening. As for sitting on cold pews singing psalms, never done it myself.

It's been suggested that Jesus actually told his disciples that you don't need the church, and if god is omnipresent why would you? Sure it's nice to meet with people with similar beliefs to you, but the entity that gains most from people going to church is THE church. If he did say that then I don't the church would allow it to e kept in the printed bible.

Like I said before the church is the people not the building. And people meet together to help each other, to pray together and to praise God. We are told to do it in the scriptures.

The same as nowadays nobody reads the apocrapher(sp?) the book between the old testament and the new testament. Which is a shame because there are some fantastic peices of literature within, Tobit particularly is great.

I think that the many hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics around the world will be upset that you say they don't read the Apocrypha as it's in the scripture.


Didn't Jesus say, "Those who have eyes - let them see?" I have eyes, I see, and the concept of religion is screwed. It's caused so much suffering in the world, pointless suffering that in my eyes it can never be forgiven. I don't think it was Jesus fault, I think it's the corrupt church leaders interpretting things how the hell they want and screwing with people's lives for the pursuit of power.

What suffering around the world is the church causing? Yes there are corrupt church leaders as there are curupt leaders in most organisations around the world. Does that mean the whole church is bad? No!

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, I could write another X hundred word rebuttal but there's no point - there's clearly no changing YOUR point of view, and I can assure you there's no changing my point of view.

Yes, the church has cleaned it's act up a bit, I've already quoted alot of the reasons why the church HAS caused suffering over the years, I could add the sorry state England was in when the religion of the monarch changed regularly and anyone who didn't change from catholic to protestant at the right time would be burned at the stake as a heretic... There's more than that too... The list is long...

I think we should leave it at that, I think I've at least made my perspective and point of view very clear and explained where it comes from. I don't want to get into an endless debate on this topic again though. I've been there done that and bought several T-shirts, you believe what you like, I'll believe what I like.

[HandandFoot]

I'm a little behind, but I just couldn't let this one go!

Very bad idea to try and flame people when you are a little noob on the forums. People will remember you as a troll doing things like that.

I'd rather people think me a troll as a nood than to repeatedly open my mouth and remove all doubt of being a troll!

Religion has rules that negativly affect many aspects of life, I would rather my TKD not affected by some rules people thought would be good to control peoples lives. If you want to believe, then believe.

Of course, we're not talking about religion, we're talking about Christianity! And I'd LOVE to hear how any aspect of Christianity (not to be confused with Catholicism which is not the same) negatively affects ANY aspect of life, unless you're a murderer, rapist or thief, of course!

And no Im not a church offical thank god, or I would have to kill myself pretty sharpish. Do you really want your religion marketed like some cheap dirty commercial? Using a popular sport is just like advertising at the olympics. It cheapens it. I dont really care about relgion getting cheapened, I have no place for it in my life, but If it negativly affects my sport... there is going to be some ultra violence. :woo:

Yes, I agree! Thank God, indeed. Of, course, I don't know which one is yours, but that's OK! He's obviously one who would rather you dead if you follow too closely! Sorry, I suspect your remark was just flippant.

But, I really DO care if religion (specifically Christianity) is cheapened. And I do care that you cheapen TKD by implying that there is no room for MY religion in the sport but yours is OK?!?

Oh, by the way. I haven't heard one good argument for not including Christianity in a TKD club. Keep in mind, no-one is forcing their members to do anything they don't want.

[Lefty]

Of course, we're not talking about religion, we're talking about Christianity! And I'd LOVE to hear how any aspect of Christianity (not to be confused with Catholicism which is not the same) negatively affects ANY aspect of life, unless you're a murderer, rapist or thief, of course!

How is Catholicism not the same as christianity? I'm just curious what your point of view is on this.

[Artikon]

Oh, by the way. I haven't heard one good argument for not including Christianity in a TKD club. Keep in mind, no-one is forcing their members to do anything they don't want.

TKD is a world wide phenomenon, and covers many different cultures and religions. The western world is huge on multi culturalism, and with this in mind would it be fair to incorporate a specific relgion into TKD there by alienating all other relgious denominations? TKD is meant to be for everyone, and no one should feel segregated because of their beliefs.

Is that a good arguement?

[HandandFoot]

How is Catholicism not the same as christianity? I'm just curious what your point of view is on this.

Mostly in that "a fly is a bug but a bug is not a fly". The Catholic Church is considered to be Christian church by everyone but themselves (they of course believe they are the ONLY Christian church).

Beyond that (and all, please forgive me for going off topic), they have removed Christ as the center of the church and replaced him with the Pope and his priests. Christ is the only way to speak to God, and he is the only one (by virue of also being God himself. Please don't ask me to explain in this forum as others would be DEEPLY offended) who can forgive sins.

Many of the non-Christians in this thread are absolutely correct that religion has causes a great deal of anguish and death throughout history. Unfortunately, they don't understand the difference between real Christianity (which does not have a denomination like Catholic or Jehovahs Witness, etc.) and the political religious affilitations. Chirtianity in the pursuit of living a life modelled by Christ Himself and not any man.

BTW. The Crusaders not only murders countless thousands of Muslims, they also murders thousands of Jews (because Jews murdered Christ!?!?! What morons! Christ WAS a Jew!)

The only people Christ offended were the ones that would lose power or money by living the life He called us to live.

Again, I appologize for this digression. Please don't flame me. If anyone wishes more converstaion in this area, I suggest the Religion thread http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=81 or you can send me a private message.

[Lefty]

TKD is a world wide phenomenon, and covers many different cultures and religions. The western world is huge on multi culturalism, and with this in mind would it be fair to incorporate a specific relgion into TKD there by alienating all other relgious denominations? TKD is meant to be for everyone, and no one should feel segregated because of their beliefs.

Is that a good arguement?
No doubt. I believe it should be given to the masses free of any strings (that includes Pepsi endorsements, etc.), but what we're talking about is a bunch of Christians putting together a Dojang that stresses Christ's teachings etc. in with TKD. It's not like it's the only Dojang in town and it's master got God and decided to distill Him down to the students. When you join this club you know what you're getting into.

[HandandFoot]

TKD is a world wide phenomenon, and covers many different cultures and religions. The western world is huge on multi culturalism, and with this in mind would it be fair to incorporate a specific relgion into TKD there by alienating all other relgious denominations? TKD is meant to be for everyone, and no one should feel segregated because of their beliefs.

Is that a good arguement?

It would be and EXCELLENT argument if anyone were implying that ALL TKD clubs become Christian or any other religion. This class is simply a personal preference where a group of Christians can learn a Martial Arts style without having to compromise their beliefs or have any other beliefs forced upon them. TKD is a perfect forum for that BECAUSE it doesn't have a religious basis already. That is one of the main reasons I am in TKD and not Kung-Fu!

[Lefty]

Beyond that (and all, please forgive me for going off topic), they have removed Christ as the center of the church and replaced him with the Pope and his priests. Christ is the only way to speak to God, and he is the only one (by virue of also being God himself. Please don't ask me to explain in this forum as others would be DEEPLY offended) who can forgive sins.

I grew up Catholic (I'm a recovering Catholic). I never viewed the Pope as the center of the church. Could be your view of the Catholic church is tainted by other rhetoric? I mean no offense, but if you don't know it from personal experience, you might get misinformation.

[Slindsay]

Of course, we're not talking about religion, we're talking about Christianity! And I'd LOVE to hear how any aspect of Christianity (not to be confused with Catholicism which is not the same) negatively affects ANY aspect of life, unless you're a murderer, rapist or thief, of course!


I hear that some gay people have issues with being stoned, it negatively impacts on their ability to work productively and stuff.

[HandandFoot]

I hear that some gay people have issues with being stoned, it negatively impacts on their ability to work productively and stuff.

Sorry, lost me again. I know a LOT of Christians, and not ONE of them has ever stoned a homosexual nor ever felt inclined to! Pleas don't confuse Christians with people who use religion to justify their pre-existing condition of hate. Because one CLAIMS to be Christian, does not MAKE him one. It is a way of life that cannot be hidden (though even the best of us are not perfect)

I consider myself to be a devout Christian and I know, associate with, and have even had casual friends who are homosexuals. I cannot be their close friends because I want nothing to do with their lifestyle, much the same as I won't have good alcoholic friends.


Again, do not confuse religion with Christianity.

[Slindsay]

Sorry, lost me again. I know a LOT of Christians, and not ONE of them has ever stoned a homosexual nor ever felt inclined to! Pleas don't confuse Christians with people who use religion to justify their pre-existing condition of hate. one. Because one CLAIMS to be Christian, does not MAKE himIt is a way of life that cannot be hidden (though even the best of us are not perfect)

I see. So what in fact your saying is that no-one who you deem to be Christian does stuff in the name of God. In fact in your mind by definition if someone does something that's bad in the name of Chritianity then they arent Christian. That's kinda a Catch 22 situation you have going on there.

I consider myself to be a devout Christian and I know, associate with, and have even had casual friends who are homosexuals. I cannot be their close friends because I want nothing to do with their lifestyle, much the same as I won't have good alcoholic friends.

And that contempt you hold them in doesnt at all negatively impact on their self image you think?


Again, do not confuse religion with Christianity.

Kinda like the situation with _ing __un, everyone claims to have the real stuff but how do you know who to listen to?

[Lefty]

Sorry, lost me again. I know a LOT of Christians, and not ONE of them has ever stoned a homosexual nor ever felt inclined to! Pleas don't confuse Christians with people who use religion to justify their pre-existing condition of hate. Because one CLAIMS to be Christian, does not MAKE him one. It is a way of life that cannot be hidden (though even the best of us are not perfect)

Again, do not confuse religion with Christianity.
Christians do all sorts of wacky things. Stage protests at funerals of murdered gay men, blowing up abortion clinics, the list goes on. There are good christians, bad christians and all gradients between. I can't say that one sect (catholic, baptist, whatever) is more evil than another. I believe that if christ were alive today, he'd be kicking ass and taking names... although nicely and non-violently.


I consider myself to be a devout Christian and I know, associate with, and have even had casual friends who are homosexuals. I cannot be their close friends because I want nothing to do with their lifestyle, much the same as I won't have good alcoholic friends.
Wouldn't christ hang with them? He was cool with the lepers and the prostitutes. Christ would be kickin' it at the AIDS clinic these days. Nicht wahr?

[EternalRage]

Of course, we're not talking about religion, we're talking about Christianity! And I'd LOVE to hear how any aspect of Christianity (not to be confused with Catholicism which is not the same) negatively affects ANY aspect of life, unless you're a murderer, rapist or thief, of course!

There are always negatives to everything in the world. People can find a way to misuse anything. Of course, you can argue that Christianity directly hasn't been responsible for some of the terrors that the world has faced. By its nature, it doesn't promote anything negative. however, couple it with humanity, which is capable of abuse and evil, and then you have a tool that can be wielded for all sorts of purposes. From a different perspective, it can be totally justified that the mere existence of Christianity, despite its nature, has caused negative outcomes (ie Terrorism, corrupt teleevangelists, hardcore hellfire preachers). Of course these are results of Christianity's existence, not of its nature, but then how much of a distinction can you draw between the two? Existence and nature are as intertwined as yin and yang.

Here's the way I deal with Christianity - there's alot of hypocrisy and contradiction in the Scripture. If you're Christian, and you disagree, well that's your interpretation. You have to remember that denominations and even one pastor's sermon vs another's is all a matter of interpretation. The Lutherans' interpretation has the same right to be heard as the Catholics' which have the same right as some non denominational church down the road, which has the same right to interpretation as you or me. In terms of literal as well as personal interpretation (for a wide majority of people, Christian or not) the Bible holds contradiction. And to tell someone that they're wrong doesn't mean that they're not filled with the Spirit, or that they're reading it wrong - you don't know that. Its like if a Cheung Wing Chunner went up to a WSL Wing Chunner and told him that his lineage was wrong - we all know how that turns out, we see it on this forum like everyday...

So how to deal with Christianity's apparent contradictions to itself. I figure God works on a much different and higher plane where these things don't contradict each other. And even if that facet wasn't true, He could easily change reality to make it so that the contradictions aren't contradictions at all. In fact, since God created everything, the notion of contradiction is in fact an invention of God and - oh man I've gone crosseyed.

I dunno how it works. Just have faith that it will turn out ok at the end.

One of my favorite quotes is from a Buddhist friend of mine who got verbally overwhelmed by Christians who wanted to convert him:
Lord, deliver me from your followers

Please don't be one of them.

[Lefty]

Lord, deliver me from your followers

Amen brother!

[HandandFoot]

Here's the way I deal with Christianity - there's alot of hypocrisy and contradiction in the Scripture. If you're Christian, and you disagree, well that's your interpretation. You have to remember that denominations and even one pastor's sermon vs another's is all a matter of interpretation. The Lutherans' interpretation has the same right to be heard as the Catholics' which have the same right as some non denominational church down the road, which has the same right to interpretation as you or me. In terms of literal as well as personal interpretation (for a wide majority of people, Christian or not) the Bible holds contradiction. And to tell someone that they're wrong doesn't mean that they're not filled with the Spirit, or that they're reading it wrong - you don't know that. Its like if a Cheung Wing Chunner went up to a WSL Wing Chunner and told him that his lineage was wrong - we all know how that turns out, we see it on this forum like everyday...

Therein lies the crux of the problem. Interpretation is the same reason we have WTF and ITF! Is either one wrong? Simly ask the creator. Ooops! You can't!

But seriously, now. The only time there is contradiction in the Bible, is when a person INTERPRETS something one way and is unwilling to consider it a wrong interpretation when he finds a vers that cannot be interpretted that same way.

Lord, deliver me from your followers
Consider yourself delivered, Postage Due! :D

I'm really not trying to convinve you,I simply do not want your disrespect!

[Lefty]

Therein lies the crux of the problem. Interpretation is the same reason we have WTF and ITF! Is either one wrong? Simly ask the creator. Ooops! You can't!

But seriously, now. The only time there is contradiction in the Bible, is when a person INTERPRETS something one way and is unwilling to consider it a wrong interpretation when he finds a vers that cannot be interpretted that same way.

I'm really not trying to convinve you,I simply do not want your disrespect!
To properly interpret the Bible, one should read it in it's original written language with a mindset of the times in which it was written.
Not convenient for for most who aren't biblical scholars.

[EternalRage]

Therein lies the crux of the problem. Interpretation is the same reason we have WTF and ITF! Is either one wrong? Simly ask the creator. Ooops! You can't!

My point wasn't that there is a correct interpretation. My point is that there's no such thing as a correct interpretation - everyone's interpretation of it is valid. May not work for you but then martial arts training, just like religion is a personal thing first. This leads to your next statement:

But seriously, now. The only time there is contradiction in the Bible, is when a person INTERPRETS something one way and is unwilling to consider it a wrong interpretation when he finds a vers that cannot be interpretted that same way.

There you go again, stating that someone's interpretation could be wrong. You don't know that its wrong. To label something incorrect implies that you have the true meaning to begin with - that's putting yourself on the same level as God. How can you be so sure that He didn't purposely put contradictions in the Bible? Or that maybe that God Himself works on a higher plane and that we as humans can only interpret His logic as contradiction? If someone interprets a passage from Scripture and then interprets another passage and finds them contradictory, that individual has the right to interpret it that way and there's no way you can say he's right or wrong. If you get it a different way, then fine, Spirit obviously talks to you differently, or not at all, or maybe a smidgen, I have no clue. The only thing we can be sure of is that interpretations are not consistent, that the messages in Scripture speak differently to different people (again hence denominations), and some people get contradictions out of it - and its perfectly viable seeing as how we aren't omnipotent.

I'm really not trying to convinve you,I simply do not want your disrespect!
Well by implying that contradictions mean that people are interpreting things incorrectly also implies that you know the truth behind the Bible. That's putting you at God's level, which I find offensive and disrespectful.

[HandandFoot]

My point wasn't that there is a correct interpretation. My point is that there's no such thing as a correct interpretation - everyone's interpretation of it is valid.

So what you're saying is that everyones opinion is truth (as an interpretation is an opinion as to what one was saying). That's utterly REDICULOUS! :bang:

To label something incorrect implies that you have the true meaning to begin with - that's putting yourself on the same level as God. ...
Well by implying that contradictions mean that people are interpreting things incorrectly also implies that you know the truth behind the Bible. That's putting you at God's level, which I find offensive and disrespectful.

How absurd! I never said nor implied that I had the right answer. I SAID the BIBLE has the right answer if you're willing to read it and hear what IT says!

Please refrain from rhetoric. It is tiresome and belies a lack of understanding.

[Pureworld]

To the Topic:

You guys look at it from the wrong angle.

Its not TKDists practicing Christianity.

Its Christians practicing TKD.



It fits with all the other things.

Christian Golf,Dating,Pool,Bowling,christian schools and everything else

Its TKD for christians that like to practice TKD with others that have the same mind set about religion.

If you dont like religion or christianity you wouldnt want to go there unless you want to find out about the religion.

if you dont like a religion wouldnt you go to its church and "practice" listening/sitting ?.

(thats just what im asuming and my views as a christian)

[Slindsay]

Hmm, my original post appears to be getting ignored...

[EternalRage]

So what you're saying is that everyones opinion is truth (as an interpretation is an opinion as to what one was saying). That's utterly REDICULOUS! :bang:
You're misunderstanding. I should have used a better word than "valid." Whether everyone's opinion is truth or not, no one on earth knows. But that doesn't mean you go around saying someone's interpretation of the Bible (even if it ends up in contradiction) is incorrect or shouldn't be expressed. Basically what I'm saying is tolerance.

How absurd! I never said nor implied that I had the right answer. I SAID the BIBLE has the right answer if you're willing to read it and hear what IT says!
Yea and some people read it and they hear the contradictions. Who are you to say that their contradictory interpretation is incorrect.

Please refrain from rhetoric. It is tiresome and belies a lack of understanding.
So do pretentious comments masked in an air of self-appointed conclusion.
Lord, deliver me from your followers. Forgive them for they know not what they do...

[Strafio]

Ignoring all the pro/anti Christian politic in this thread, I'll directly answer the title.
A "religion", if taken seriously, is someone's way of life.
A martial art, if taken seriously, would also be a big part of someone's life.
So if there was to be a clash then there would perhaps be problems.

There was talk of a TKD school making Christian teachings part of the syllabus?
That sounds kind of :rollseyes: as they are different subjects, but I guess this school is tailored for Christian peoples who specifically choose it because they live a Christian life anyway. So you could say it's a group of Christians practicing their art their way.
It's not like they're using their art as some tool for indoctrination or anything.