Our Four Spiritual Siblings in Jawa Kebatinan

[Kiai Carita]

Salam hormat to all pesilat in this forum,

A friend on this fourm PM-ed me asking about the 'kandha papat' in Jawa kebatinan. I was going to answer him privately but then thought that this information is important for global pesilat. In my surfing for silat and Indonesian culture I have seen that there are dodgy websites out there cashing in on marketing Indonesian mistisism and magic, who sell oils and charms and spells and amulets with a lot of hocus pocus surrounding it. This is called 'klenik' and it is not 'kebatinan'. Real 'kebatinan' is an ilmu, a science based on universal truths, not based on ensalving jinns (khaddam).

The king Mangkunegara IV in his poem Wulangreh warns about this kind of power that you can buy: when threatened from five directions, the power shall betray you.... Knowledge that is gained through hard work does not betray you at any time. So, just a word of warning to those pesilat who are into the esoteric, beware, many are ready to make you part with your money.

In Jawa kebatinan it is customary to categorize the passions and desires of the heart in to four distinct entities. The four spiritual siblings that accompany us from the beginning of our existence inside the womb, till the time we die and are brought to life again. In Jawa kebatinan these siblings are called 'sedulur papat' 'kandha papat' or the four siblings. These siblings are our desires.

In the Islamized kebatinan in Jawa the 4 nafs, desires, passions which drive the life of our hearts are called Lwamah, Supiyah, Amarah and Mutmainah. The Lwamah is symbolized by the colour black and represents the desire to eat and sleep. Supiyah is symbolized by the colour yellow and represents the passion to regenerate. Amarah is red and represents the Nietzche-like will to power, while the Mutmainah is white and represents the desire to do good.

Usually from this basic concept different kebatinan schools or families or individuals will develop different knowledges. Surrealistically often these Islamized nafs are explained using the Mahabharata or the Ramayana.

In the last battle of the Mahabharata, called the Bharatayudha, Arjuna, the hero of the Pandawa brothers leads his armies from a chariot drawn by four horses with Krishna holding the reins. The horses are black, yellow, red and white and are harnessed in pairs. The black and yellow horses are harnessed to the left rein and the red and white horse are harnessed to the right rein.

The symbolism means that the desire to reproduce and the desire to eat and sleep must run together under the same control, and if one runs loose it will drag the other away with it. To put it simply, someone who eats and sleeps too much will not have a good sex life, in fact his (her) ability to attract sex and also desire for it will diminish as obesity sets in. Someone who is always worried about pruning, about how he (she) looks, about attracting sex, will inevitably loose sleep and not eat well maybe even become anorexic.

The same goes for the red and the white horses, the will to power and the desire to do good. If one lets the will to power run loose it will drag the desire to do good down to the ground and will not let it function. One becomes obbsessed with power like Hitler and cannot do even simple good things like be kind. On the other hand if the desire to do good overcomes one becomes weak and trampled on. There needs to be a balance between the will to power and the desire to do good, just like there needs to be a balance between eating-sleeping and love-making.

To be victourious Arjuna needs Krishna in control of his horses and he needs all his horses to run fast and in harmony. Only in this way can the great Bharatayudha be won. In this light, practising silat should be in order to learn to be Krishna and control the four horses inside. When one controls one's desires not by killing them but by balancing them and understanding them, one will have huge energy to propell through life's trials and tribulations.

There are other explainations for the 'sedulur papat' but for now I hope this will be useful. My next post, insya'allah will still be about the sedulur papat, and how one can meet them. The metaphor in the next post will be taken from the Ramayana, especially the story of Anoman Duta, where the white monkey Hanuman is sent as Rama's envoy.

Rahayu,
Kiai Carita.

PS. I hope this post doesn't get on your nerves Tellner.

[Sekaralas]

Kiai Dalang said ... "To be victourious Arjuna needs Krishna in control of his horses and he needs all his horses to run fast and in harmony. Only in this way can the great Bharatayudha be won."

The metaphor could also mean that practising silat should be in order to cement the faith in one's diety or God (i.e. kebatinan dalam Allah). Kresna being one of the human forms of Wisnu ... I can't think of the English for that.
Only when one has complete faith, will the silat improve etc ... sort of a symbiotic relationship, cause and effect, effect and cause.

[Kiai Carita]

There are other explainations for the 'sedulur papat' but for now I hope this will be useful. My next post, insya'allah will still be about the sedulur papat, and how one can meet them. The metaphor in the next post will be taken from the Ramayana, especially the story of Anoman Duta, where the white monkey Hanuman is sent as Rama's envoy.

Rahayu,
Kiai Carita

Dear Sekaralas, thank you for responding to my lonely post. It seems that the great fighters of this forum are not interested in the kebatinan of silat. I hope that this is not the case and that my brothers Cimandesilat, Tellner, Sulaiman, Amirultekpi, Wali, Sabrsilat, Silatliam, Redbagani and others are not only interested in the 'lahir' part of life. Without olah batin there no pendekar, only a jago. Jagos are bought and sold. Pendekars follow the way of God.

Dear Pesilat whom I love and respect whatever colour or religion you are, this story is a Jawa take on the Indian ancient and sacred Ramayana by Rsi Valmiki. This story has survived and still draws prime time TV audience for thousand of years and was old when Rome was young. In Jawa the Walisongo cleansed it from syirik and used it to spread the light of true Islam and jihad.

In kebatinan Jawa it is common to use the four Alengka children, Rahwana, Kumbakarna, Sarpakenaka, and Gunawan Wibisana as symbols for the four passions described in the beginning of this thread. Rahwana = Amarah = Will to Power. Kumbakarna = Lwamah= Eat and Sleep. Sarpakenaka = Supiyah= Attract sex. Gunawan Wibisana = Mutmainah = Do Good.

With these four desires manifest in Alengka disharmony reigned over people's lives. To bring back harmony and win back his kidnapped wife, Rama (Wisnu, man/god, insan kamil) requiered the help of the god-child-monkeys, and Anoman, the only white monkey is the most famous and most important in the discussion of 'sedulur papat'. The discussion of 'sedulur papat' is in the whole night shadow puppet performance titled 'Anoman Duta' meaning 'Anoman as the Envoy'.

Anoman promises Rama that he can find Alengka and bring back Dewi Sinta before sunset tomorrow. After trials and tribulations that have Anoman blind, see again, learn to fly, he arrives at the borders of Alengka but in the East, West, North and South Alengka is guarded by mighty demons. Anoman fights them and as he defeats them the shapeshift and become one with him. The demons are Kilatmeja who originated from the amniotic fuilds that flowed when Anoman was born, Dayapati originated from his placenta, Garba Ludira originated froom the blood st his birth, and Pulasio originated from his umbilical cord.

After defeating these four demons (who had been captured and duped by Rahwana) Anoman goes on to win the battle for Sinta by lifting a mountain up and dumping it on Rahwana, who having the ilmu Rawarontek, would come to life as soon as his corpse touched the earth even if he was chopped into a thousand peices.

The Walisongo Ramayana version of 'kandha papat' is a little more complex than the Mahabharata version as in the Ramayana there is a plot inside the main diagram of the four passions. Still the idea is the same, to become a proper human, one must be master of one's passions and the mastery of these passions brings true power.

I hope this did not bore you.

Rahayu,

Kiai Carita.

[amirul_tekpi79]

Peace to all,

Dear Kiai,

Most Malaysians nowadays don't know any of the Ramayana or Mahabrata epics anymore (including myself :D ) except maybe some Kelantan folks (Kelantan is one of the eastern states of Peninsula Malaysia that has been influenced a lot by various cultures i.e. Thai, Javanese and Khmer. In Kelantan, wayang kulit is still being practiced by a few.

In silat context, there are certain schools/styles of silat that incorporates the epics. Silat Pancasila Gayong Harimau for instance was originally named Silat Harimau Sri Rama (Rama as in Ramayana). I have a friend in Kedah that is the pewaris of Silat Sendeng Hanuman (or Anoman) that he said was brought by his ancestors to Kedah. In Terengganu (Kelantan's neighbour state) there exist a Silat Gerak Sejati that has in their syllibus the practice of Tari Sri Rama that incorporates movements akin to that of wayang kulit puppets. Pak Kiai, sorry but i do not know if they have the same batin aspects as you mentioned.

That's all the time i have right now.
Peace

[Sekaralas]

Halo KC, I agree that a purely material perspective on Pencak Silat results in a lopsided silat education.
The mythology inherent in Silat as a culture, reminds me of the idea of knight errantry for the Euro peoples, and the mystic warriors for the Asian peoples. I have left a huge gap of cultures here, please forgive as I do not know any other culture well enough to comment, but I suspect there is some heroic mythic ideal in all cultures.
The knights of the Round Table for example, had to follow a strict moral code ... which, IMO makes them Pendekar. So to in Silat, the pesilat who learn in order to only vanquish others has a possible bully modality, at the very least there is a shallowness to the character ... a jago maybe.
However, a Pendekar is a Knight Errant with a highly developed internalisation of a code of knightly ethics. Whether or not this includes a God should not be relevent.
For example I am highly secular, but I believe that I have strong nature inspired spiritual values without following any paricular dogma of established religion.
Just my way of explaining .. that's all ;o).

[silatliam]

"Dear Sekaralas, thank you for responding to my lonely post. It seems that the great fighters of this forum are not interested in the kebatinan of silat. I hope that this is not the case and that my brothers Cimandesilat, Tellner, Sulaiman, Amirultekpi, Wali, Sabrsilat, Silatliam, Redbagani and others are not only interested in the 'lahir' part of life. Without olah batin there no pendekar, only a jago. Jagos are bought and sold. Pendekars follow the way of God."

[silatliam]

Hi Kiai

"Dear Sekaralas, thank you for responding to my lonely post. It seems that the great fighters of this forum are not interested in the kebatinan of silat. I hope that this is not the case and that my brothers Cimandesilat, Tellner, Sulaiman, Amirultekpi, Wali, Sabrsilat, Silatliam, Redbagani and others are not only interested in the 'lahir' part of life. Without olah batin there no pendekar, only a jago. Jagos are bought and sold. Pendekars follow the way of God."
Here we go again another dig at us poor western silat guys.

To answer your question. Yes we have Kebatinan. Yes we have ilmu .Yes we Tenaga Dalam. Do we follow God? Thats up to each person and their journey in life , hopefully they are, but thats not up to me nor you. In Pendekar Sanders book the "Twelth Principle" he discuss the 4 Brothers. Just because we western, doesnt mean we dont know about the internal side, but to be honest most people who walk into my class at the beginning want to know how to defend themselves and their love ones, or want to get fit. After a period of time, if the art like them and they like the art and if they want to they can learn the internal and spiritual. I dont really want to get into any long discussion of this on the net as I feel spiritual training is a personal thing and a forum on the net is not a place to discuss this as I've seen many people in the past who make great claims about this, and when you meet them there very little spiritual about them

[Wali]

Dear Sekaralas, thank you for responding to my lonely post. It seems that the great fighters of this forum are not interested in the kebatinan of silat. I hope that this is not the case and that my brothers Cimandesilat, Tellner, Sulaiman, Amirultekpi, Wali, Sabrsilat, Silatliam, Redbagani and others are not only interested in the 'lahir' part of life. Without olah batin there no pendekar, only a jago. Jagos are bought and sold. Pendekars follow the way of God.

Dear Pesilat whom I love and respect whatever colour or religion you are, this story is a Jawa take on the Indian ancient and sacred Ramayana by Rsi Valmiki. This story has survived and still draws prime time TV audience for thousand of years and was old when Rome was young. In Jawa the Walisongo cleansed it from syirik and used it to spread the light of true Islam and jihad.

In kebatinan Jawa it is common to use the four Alengka children, Rahwana, Kumbakarna, Sarpakenaka, and Gunawan Wibisana as symbols for the four passions described in the beginning of this thread. Rahwana = Amarah = Will to Power. Kumbakarna = Lwamah= Eat and Sleep. Sarpakenaka = Supiyah= Attract sex. Gunawan Wibisana = Mutmainah = Do Good.

With these four desires manifest in Alengka disharmony reigned over people's lives. To bring back harmony and win back his kidnapped wife, Rama (Wisnu, man/god, insan kamil) requiered the help of the god-child-monkeys, and Anoman, the only white monkey is the most famous and most important in the discussion of 'sedulur papat'. The discussion of 'sedulur papat' is in the whole night shadow puppet performance titled 'Anoman Duta' meaning 'Anoman as the Envoy'.

Anoman promises Rama that he can find Alengka and bring back Dewi Sinta before sunset tomorrow. After trials and tribulations that have Anoman blind, see again, learn to fly, he arrives at the borders of Alengka but in the East, West, North and South Alengka is guarded by mighty demons. Anoman fights them and as he defeats them the shapeshift and become one with him. The demons are Kilatmeja who originated from the amniotic fuilds that flowed when Anoman was born, Dayapati originated from his placenta, Garba Ludira originated froom the blood st his birth, and Pulasio originated from his umbilical cord.

After defeating these four demons (who had been captured and duped by Rahwana) Anoman goes on to win the battle for Sinta by lifting a mountain up and dumping it on Rahwana, who having the ilmu Rawarontek, would come to life as soon as his corpse touched the earth even if he was chopped into a thousand peices.

The Walisongo Ramayana version of 'kandha papat' is a little more complex than the Mahabharata version as in the Ramayana there is a plot inside the main diagram of the four passions. Still the idea is the same, to become a proper human, one must be master of one's passions and the mastery of these passions brings true power.

I hope this did not bore you.

Rahayu,

Kiai Carita.
Hi Kiai,

The silat I practice has a very deep spiritual aspect, but it is not for discussion in this forum.

I also find that talking about the spiritual aspects always leads to religious debates and arguments, and this is something I don't need and always avoid like the plague.

I choose to discuss the physical aspects of silat alone, and it is up to everyone else to find their own path.

Cheers,
Wali

[Silatyogi]

Hi Kiai,

The silat I practice has a very deep spiritual aspect, but it is not for discussion in this forum.

I also find that talking about the spiritual aspects always leads to religious debates and arguments, and this is something I don't need and always avoid like the plague.

I choose to discuss the physical aspects of silat alone, and it is up to everyone else to find their own path.

Cheers,
Wali

I agree.

Great post Wali

-silatyogi

[Silk Road]

Rahayu Kyai Carita,

Could you please elaborate on this:

The king Mangkunegara IV in his poem Wulangreh warns about this kind of power that you can buy

I know very well the website you are referring to!

Salaam,
Silkroad

[Kiai Carita]

Rahayu Kyai Carita,Could you please elaborate on this:
The king Mangkunegara IV in his poem Wulangreh warns about this kind of power that you can buy.I know very well the website you are referring to!
Salaam,
Silkroad

Rahayu Silk Road,

Now you are getting me confused, I don't have the Wulangreh with me and now I am having doubts that it was written by Mangkunegara VII of Solo. You might be able to research Wulangreh on the web or ask your Solo cointacts to send you a copy. Anyway, the lines that appear in my mind when speaking about the type of powers that you get by ensalving jinns are these:

Kapentok ing pancabaya
Ubayane mbalenjani

meaning:

When cornered by danger from five directions
It's powers shall betray you.

There are two different aspects of Jawa mysticism, the 'klenik' which is concerned in manipulating the unseen for material gain of the practitioners. Practitioners will (for money) employ black magic to manipulate people and often they are called dukun. The second aspect is kebatinan which is an inner development tool / method, often using the categories of 'kandha papat' 'kakang kawah' and 'adi ari-ari'. Kebatinan doesn't seek to win or be victorious in this world, rather it seeks to bring the practitioner close to God so that God guides the actions of the practitioner, and the practitioner is generally called 'wong sepuh' or 'old person'.

The Wedhatama, another Mangkunegaran gem of a poem defines 'wong sepuh':

Sapa entuk Wahyuning Allah (whoever is guided by Allah)
Gya dumilah mangulah ngelmu bangkit (Hurry and develop the art of rising up)
Bangkit mikat reh mangukut (Rise and attract and lead and unite)
Kukutane jiwanggo (Unite the body and the soul)
Yen mangkono kena sinebut wong sepuh (That way you can be called wong sepuh)
Dene sepuh sepi hawa (And old means void of desire)
Awas loro ning atunggil ( Alert and consious of the unity of duality)...

Again you can use the 'kandha papat' diagram to help define sepuh and become sepuh. To become void of desire you must learn about your desires. One method of 'meeting' your 'kandha papat' taught to me by my father's friend in Yogyakarta was to fast upon the desire then in the middle of the night go to a secluded open space and summon the desire you want to meet.

Out of your stomach the words will creep out: Aku Lwamah!!! I am Lwamah! and you begin the dialog: Lwamah what do you want? Lwamah might say I want chocolate, or I want to fast, or I want fish and chips or whatever, you negotiate with Lwamah using your religion as your guide. To meet Lwamah you fast from food, drink and sleep. To meet Supiyah you fast from sex. To meet Amarah you fast from talking. To meet Mutmainah you remember God all the time.

When the Walisongo began to bring the population of Jawa to Islam they found that the people of Jawa were already more or less Islam at least morally. So they decided that they would not destroy the culture already there. Rather than destroy it they used it and employed it to spread Islam. In this way we have Islamic Ramayana and Mahabharata and also Islamic silat. It was the Muslims who were the first to teach silat in an egalitarian spirit to the common people. Before the arrival of Islam silat was the privilege of the Kraton mandalas.

You begin your fasting on the day you were born according to the Jawa calender which you can now easily work out by using http://www.babadbali.com/pewarigaan

The Walisongo opened schools of silat and alchemy during a time of social and political upheaval and had to care for a population that was divided along religious lines. By explaining Islam in the terms of Ramayana and Mahabharata they ensured that the older culture of Jawa lived on. I hope that this thread does not turn into a religious debate. It is just information that I imagine is of interest to pesilat interested in kebatinan the way it is understood in (Central and East) Jawa.

Sumonggo,
Kiai Carita.

[Kiai Carita]

Hi Kiai

"Dear Sekaralas, thank you for responding to my lonely post. It seems that the great fighters of this forum are not interested in the kebatinan of silat. I hope that this is not the case and that my brothers Cimandesilat, Tellner, Sulaiman, Amirultekpi, Wali, Sabrsilat, Silatliam, Redbagani and others are not only interested in the 'lahir' part of life. Without olah batin there no pendekar, only a jago. Jagos are bought and sold. Pendekars follow the way of God."
Here we go again another dig at us poor western silat guys.

To answer your question. Yes we have Kebatinan. Yes we have ilmu .Yes we Tenaga Dalam. Do we follow God? Thats up to each person and their journey in life , hopefully they are, but thats not up to me nor you. In Pendekar Sanders book the "Twelth Principle" he discuss the 4 Brothers. Just because we western, doesnt mean we dont know about the internal side, but to be honest most people who walk into my class at the beginning want to know how to defend themselves and their love ones, or want to get fit. After a period of time, if the art like them and they like the art and if they want to they can learn the internal and spiritual. I dont really want to get into any long discussion of this on the net as I feel spiritual training is a personal thing and a forum on the net is not a place to discuss this as I've seen many people in the past who make great claims about this, and when you meet them there very little spiritual about them

Cousin Silatliam please, the dig is in your interpretation. Please read carefully what I wrote. Did I single out Weterners? Did I say anything negative about Westerners in general or you in particular? Honest I am only informing the general basics of 'kebatinan Jawa' not asking to discuss personal journeys. Please read again my post and tell me why you accuse me of 'digging' again at you 'poor Western pesilat'. Allah knows that the archipelago pesilat are generally much poorer than the Western pesilat.

The general basics of 'kebatinan Jawa' are general knowledge open for anyone wanting to access them. I am just posting it because I had been asked about 'sedulur papat' by a white man on this forum. Because I have read posts mentioning batin and seen it advertised on silat websites I was interested to know what the basics are in the kebatinan of the Western silat schools.

It is rather disturbing to be solemnly informed that the basic concepts of the 'kebatinan' of your silat cannot be discussed on the web in front of everyone. The basic concepts of the 'kebatinan' of the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w was always open for public, as was also the 'kebatinan' of the Jesus Christ of the Gospel, Buddha, Krishna, Mpu Baradah, Gandhi, Suryamentaram, all great Guru's in their own right were completely open about the basics of their 'kebatinan' to all who would care to ask and listen.

It is not as if we are discussing individuals, just basic concepts like Yin-Yang or Tao or Tauhid or 'kandha papat' or 'mulur-mungkret' or samsara or Jung's archetypes or whatever. I would imagine that the information about these basic Jawa concepts would be usefull for some on this web as they are not readily available on google. At least it might be for the person who asked and maybe even one or two others. I do not want people to follow it as it is just information to enrich the 'kebatinan' of the world. One amongst many others.

Is it too personal if I ask you what is your take on the 'four brothers' or should I just buy the book and read it myself?

Warm salaams and rahayu,

Kiai Carita.

[Abdullah1881]

Salam Kiai Carita,

I for one am very much enjoying reading your posts on Various Javanese Kebatinan. I agree with you in that the fundamentals of spirituality in Silat are not taboo and are something we should not feel worried to talk about. After all, from what ive been told a big part of kebatinan is 'understanding' not practise, good amal being a result of correct ilmu, understanding is reached by listening and discussion.

Some of us far far away from Tanah Melayu really enjoy such discussions, after all how much can you really discuss physical. Physical is for gelanggang.
I would very much like to hear more about the wayang kulit in relation to the wali Songo if you have more to share with us.

I think many people take for granted the rare priviledge that we as westeners get when a Malay or Indonesian decide to share some of their experiences with us such as yourself and Pakeraja. Since we all know Malays seldom write on these boards.

Please keep on Posting,

Salams

Abdullah1881

[silatliam]

"It is rather disturbing to be solemnly informed that the basic concepts of the 'kebatinan' of your silat cannot be discussed on the web in front of everyone."

Hi Kiai
As I mention before and totally agree with Wali comments (well wriiten and fully supported) I dont like to talk about these the Internal and Spirtiual aspects of our styles on the net. The only reason I was replying I got pull into this thread was because you mention my name and one of my student and in adoing so I wanted to make sure in case silat seekers who read these forums may think we dont have these aspects in our training.The reason I dont want to comment on these is in the pass these forums can turn very quickly into internet wars especially when we start talking about people take on religious and spiritual aspects. These are personally matters and best left to a class enviroment .I teach classes 5 days a week, I do workshops at the weekends and more than willing to talk about what contain in our systems to students directly face to face. So there plenty of opportunity for students to discuss these aspects with me.

Im over in London to do a workshop in Sept and I send you the details privately if you want to come along and we can discuss Pukulan Cimande Puaska if you want. I dont want to be endlessly writing night after night to people on the net, explaining every single aspect off what is Pukulan Cimande Pusaka to people who I dont know and who probely would never make the effort to come along and attend a class.

Kind Regards

Liam

[sulaiman]

Salaams all , thanks Abdullah for beating me to the post - my sentiments exactly.
KC - your posts always informative & interesting - and give much food for thought , havent replied to this one before as been busy & really have nothing to add - in that case better for me to keep quiet & listen.
Peace

[Silk Road]

Dengan Hormat Kyai Carita,

Count me in with Sulaiman and Abdullah. Your posts and those of our Malaysian fellows here are the main reason I come to this forum at all. As an admittedly ignorant Westerner, I treasure the knowledge that you share with us on these diverse topics. If you ever decide to start your own discussion group, I'll be the first to register. Most of what you write totally jibes with what I was taught in Solo and Yogya as far as kebatinan - and has even clarified a few things that my teachers (who don't have your command of the english language) tried to get across to me (I certainly don't blame them... Its my fault for not learning Bahasa!)

So please keep up the good work! There are many more of us here who appreciate your efforts, even if we don't post. And for the others, well, TONG KOSONG NYARING BUNYINYA.

Rahayu,
Silkroad

[Sekaralas]

I think I've been misunderstood.
I am all for the spiritual aspect of silat. I was merely expanding on KC's incredibly interesting and informative post. I detected no dig at westerners.
I too do not intend disrespect to Caucasians, I am married to one, and my children are part Javanese and part Caucasian.

Having said that we must acknowledge that Silat is from the east. Specifically, Silat Jowo is from Java. It's entire physical and spiritual makeup is indigenous to the Javanese.
If one is studying Silat, it is normal to conclude that one might be interested in the entirety of the art, and not just the physical aspects of it, and to that end Kiai Carita performs a wonderful service.
I am not versed in the tradition as well as Kiai Carita is, but have absorbed an understanding through osmosis, because of my own cultural heritage.
Kiai Carita is following the established tradition of passing tradition through his story telling style. That is the significance of his name, Kiai Carita, and why I also call him Pak Dalang ... the person of mystical significance who carries and shares the cultural heritage of a people, the story teller, the keeper of truths.
If you feel suspicious of that, or disrespect his motives, then you are not availing yourselves of an opportunity to know that element, which forms the core of your art. It (Silat) has always had a spiritual core.
Now we move on ... when anyone learns an art from a separate culture i.e. a North American learning Silat Cimande, they will a-priori be intepreting Silat to fit into their own culture and ways of looking at the world. What happens then? Is it still silat? The answer is yes, it becomes absorbed into the dominant environment, but it has grown from it's original seed. It is no longer pure Silat Cimande, but it is still sedulur (family), and as in all families, we must learn to communicate and be open with one another without suspicion of each others motives, until such time we might conclude that the relationship has no further use through increasing separatioin from the original. Sometimes even families separate.

Ask yourselves, how does family silat start traditionally? It starts because someone learns some skill and shares it with his or her family. Tradition is started and it becomes a tool for the family's survival in times of chaos and is grafted to the spiritual mores of the family or social group.

Human beings are intrinsically spiritual beings. However, modern and post-modern culture (which is predominantly western) has become extremely materialistic. We name Western culture not to be synonymous with Caucasian culture any longer, for many Caucasians are not materialistic, and many in Asia have whole heartedly embraced the mode of Western sensibilities where the truth of profit margin far out-weighs the truths of meta-physics.
It is this imbalance that is dangerous from a traditional perspective, particularly when the new sensibility is still being presented to the public as authentic silat, (meaning original Silat).

Devoid of a spiritual root (or devoid of a root akin to or at least parrallel to it's original roots), it is no longer silat as we have originally understood it to be.
In the post-modern world, anyone is free to re-define the name to suit individual purpose. So if one teaches for profit and ignores the original spirit of kebatinan (which in essence means 'spirituality'), from a taditionalist view it is no longer authentic silat but a new form of silat, maybe a capitalist silat ;o).

Remember too that in the past, Europeans have dominated the Asian political landscape. The cultural landscape was (and still is) the last bastion which we jealously guard. I am not anti Western, but I stringently defend the crucible which contains the original traditions, without which we are all the poorer.
I also recognise that living traditinos are too easily usurped by dominant sensibilites, and this happens all too frequently from the west.

Silat is the art of the warrior. A warrior is not one who destroys, but one who seeks enlightenment through his/her way. While we remain cognizant to that truth, we are all treading the path of the warrior.

[sulaiman]

salaams all ,
maybe there is some confusion over the precise meaning of " spiritual " and that is why some of our European brothers feel reluctant to share their experiences / practises / objectives.

In western secular culture the " spiritual side " of a martial art is often frowned upon as being " religious " and in these modern times after the distortions and atrocities that have been perpetrated in the name of religion that is not an unusal reaction.

However some of the comments that the internet is not the place to discuss such issues and if people are really interested they should come and learn in person are just not practical and ignore the particular type of audience that composes this forum.
We are all PESILAT - we all devote a large part of our life to understanding this art and this forum is a way to broaden and deepen that understanding by sharing and learning from & with other traditions.
Fair enough if someone on the bus asks you about spiritual silat you can fob him off with a " I cant talk about it here " response , but on this forum we are all peers - if I ask it is because I am genuinely interested to know and cannot physically travel to meet you to learn from you in person.

What I propose is that we move this discussion and open a " Spiritual Silat " thread - anyone who wants to use this to flame, critisize or proselytise - please do - you will be showing us all the level of your character.

What I hope is that it can be a forum to understand more about what constitutes a Spiritual value and practise , how , if at all this differs from style to style and faith to faith - not in a competitive sense but in one of " conviviencia" - live and let live .
peace
Sulaiman

[Kiai Carita]

Im over in London to do a workshop in Sept and I send you the details privately if you want to come along and we can discuss Pukulan Cimande Puaska if you want. I dont want to be endlessly writing night after night to people on the net, explaining every single aspect off what is Pukulan Cimande Pusaka to people who I dont know and who probely would never make the effort to come along and attend a class. Kind Regards
Liam

Dear Silatliam,

Peace to all,

I would very much like to be able to watch one of your classes in September in London, Sir. It was great to see Cimandesilat move several weeks ago and I would certainly like to see more of you guys. Still it would be interesting to know the basics of the kebatinan of your silat before I watch a class. However if that is not possible then I will wait. Trying to find out the answers for my questions on your website has proven difficult for me. Also the relationship of your silat to Untung Surapati is not clear. I hope you could elaborate on this.

Like Abdullah said I believe that a discussion forum on silat should tend towards the spiritual more than the physical. After all this forum is for sharing knowledge (a batin activity) and is not a gelanggang to show and demonstrate forms or moves.

As for this thread turning into a flame war because of discussing spirituality ... well that doesn't seem to be happening, does it? We are all mature pesilat on this forum and do not flame do we?

Warm regards,
Kiai Carita.

[silatliam]

"As for this thread turning into a flame war because of discussing spirituality ... well that doesn't seem to be happening, does it? We are all mature pesilat on this forum and do not flame do we? "

Dear Kiai
Its very early days yet my friend, and having been around for a long time I've seen many, many internet wars and flames work in different ways. Sometimes they seen quite and alluring and when you get close they suddenly erupt burning you. After this you become wary. It surprizes me that you have certain rules before you would attend a class or talk to a fellow silat person like myself .

"Still it would be interesting to know the basics of the kebatinan of your silat before I watch a class. However if that is not possible then I will wait."

I was only offering an opportunity of friendship and an opportunity to come along and take part. However this is a active combat silat workshop, and if you just want to watch a silat class I will let you know when the next display is on. Why dont you contact the indonesian Irish community and asked them to send you a copy of our silat display we did for them to help raise money for the Tsuami appeal (They didnt seen to have any problems with our Kebatinan.) They film the whole event. They were meant to be gamalean music and indonesian dancers but they all failed to turn up and cancel 2 hours before the event it was left to us and the Irish dancers to help save the event and raise money. Wasnt much Karma with the gamalean players or dancers there. But anyway they have the footage.

I never asked to be pull into this thread, nor would I have respond except you use my name and my students name and made statements. I must admit it was a very clever move by you. I will asked you in future please not to do this in future in your threads. If we feel we have anything to offer to the tread or want to take part we will do so, and then we will answer any questions than that are put to us. I hope you understand this. As I said before I do not want to get in endless hours of writing to people on the forum. I'm sorry if we dont have classes near some people and they feel that we should teach and give out our knowledge on the net. To these people a very simple thing would to either email me personally or better still phone or even better come along and attend a class. I will says this you will not learn silat by reading endless forums, the only way you will ever learn is by finding a teacher who you believe in and want to learn what he teaches. Than once you find this teacher learn from him personally. Dont relay on internet forums. Yes they can help abit but all to often they allow people and more often than not they just young teenagers or people with a hidden agenda. If you really want to learn you will find away. I started learning silat when I was 15 when there was no silat at all in Ireland, was not rich in any way, but was still able to bring a silat teacher over to Ireland to teach me. So if you really want to learn you will find away. Hanging around on the net will not teach you silat. Yes you might learn some history, but will you be able to develop stronger punches, faster kicks, be able to defend yourself and your love ones. Learn how to move your body in a way so it develops more inner strengths so it can deal with ill health, sickness, stress even depression. The net is only a tip of iceberg. People like myself and the Wali songo guys are out there trying to spread the word of silat. But at the end of the day, turn off the computer and make your way to a class and experience the art.

On a final note on this I teach a very combat driven form of Cimande (Pukulan Cimande Pusaka) it focus on combat techniques and training. If you are only after spiritual training or to learn history than they are other very excellent teachers out there.
We teach all aspects both Physically, Spiritiual and Internal and Magicak, but physical is our first level of training. If this offend other people views then I'm sorry but living here you all have free choice to whom you learn from. My way is only one way of many and hopefully we all meet up at the end of the journey...
I hope Kiai you will respect our wishes on this matter.

"so the relationship of your silat to Untung Surapati is not clear. I hope you could elaborate on this."[/I]

If you want to talk about any aspects of our system, please feel free to contact me personally or better still you can contact my teacher Pendekar Sanders. If very easy as you mention you cant find answers on the website, to your questions than there is a email link to Pendekar Sanders personally and you can e -mail him a question or leave a tel number and he get back to you. But he wont get involve on one of your threads on the net. This is mostly due to past experiences

Kind regards to all.

Liam

[Sgt_Major]

There arent so many obvious wars on Silat here on MAP, simply because I look after the section and try to be as objective as possible, removing conflict that would offend anyone, regardless of who they are, or what style they do.

Having said that, there are still problems, you guys are just lucky I get to them before you and take them away.


As for the spiritual side of silat, I am not dis-interested, but as SilatLiam was suggesting, it was not this aspect of Silat that sparked my first interest. It was watching the man who was taking the class, now my instructor, and watching him move, it seemed graceful, but at the same time I was somewhat awed by how devastating he looked, he was definately the kind of guy I thought could teach me not to get my ass handed to me on a plate by 6guys who jump you from behind, as had happened to me shortly before. Sure, I could have taken MMA, or XYZ but Silat drew me at that point of entry, on its physical aspects.

Now, several years later, and after numerous discussions/questions, and most importantly, listening to others more knowledgable than me discussing it, it is an area that definately interests me, but at the same time it is still an area I would be wary to meddle with, I will try to explore it only when I feel comfortable in myself that I can manage what I discover, and I will seek the knowledge from the same man who provides me with the physical.

I will further support Liam in his statement of ask and he will answer, often I have had a seemingly simple question bug me, but he still takes time to explain even the simplist of concepts in such a way that it makes sense to the person listening. There is no ego in silatLiam, he will teach everything he knows when the disciple is ready to learn it, and I am proud to be classed among his disciples.

[Silatyogi]

SILAT will do what its supposed to to the individual who immerses themselves in it. Silat chooses you, you do not choose Silat. And more importantly Silat teaches you, you do not teach Silat.


We could argue about the spiritual nature of Silat and that more should be doing the "Spiritual Side" But truth is....

Anyone involved in Silat already on some level is already involved in the spiritual side. How they choose to live with it its their Karma.... Its like a knife it can cut fruit or it can cut a throat....its up to the individual.

It doesn't matter what you call it.... Silat will teach those involved to move accordingly and deeper with nature, Mother earth, the elements of life, god, allah, shiva, buddha, christ, the void, the Tao, the Universe.

Peace

Silat Yogi