Ki [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

shadow joe

19-Jul-2003, 06:54 AM

ONLY because andrew here is making grand assumptions about things that "don't exist" am I interjecting my own thoughts on the subject.

there have been far to many KI threads lately and it's gettnig really irritating in case you haven't been able to tell...

so biomechanics, or whatever, we have to label things. So "a rose by any other name would still be a rose" we're past that.

most importantly what do you expect to accomplish with Ki energy?

Ki is the energy that flows through your body. Through dedicated practice you can instantly turn on a switch that allows you to control your internal being, your consciousness, your internal organs, body structure, and hopefully your energy field, and manifest it physically

as martial artists we typically hope to tap this energy and use it to direct it within our attacks. but it can also be used for healing, awareness, accentuation of external arts, self discovery, spirituality, and i'm sure a host of other things I have yet to stumble upon or be privleged enough to be taught.

if you honestly want to learn how it works find a decent instructor in Tai Chi, especially Yichaun, the standing meditations. If that isn't an option for you, and you ARE serious, get some books somewhere.

there are all kinds of books on the culitvation of Ki, how it relates to martial arts and what it really is beyond the mythical and often stupid lore that is everywhere.

there is a great magazine out called T'ai C'hi and it does great articles on Yichaun each month and realistic information about Chi is given from masters around the world. It's only a bi-monthly magazine and it's only about 3.94 and issue here in the states, I highly reccomend picking it up, but beware it's super technical sometiems.

sorry for the long answer, but you sound genuine, if you can explain your intentions and they fit the way then i can TRY to describe a begginning stance to help you find some Ki you can actually feel.

just remember, it's different for everyone, people have different bodies and therefore different methods of tapping into them.

good luck, hope this helped

Andrew Green

19-Jul-2003, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by shadow joe
ONLY because andrew here is making grand assumptions about things that "don't exist" am I interjecting my own thoughts on the subject.

Grand assumption being that I won't believe in something that goes against modern science and has no good evidence to support it. The burden of proof is on the person claiming it does exist, not that it doesn't

That said nothing you can say about mechanics will convince me that the reason my watch works is not because of the little invisible gremlin that lives inside of it and keeps it telling the right time. :D

Grifter

19-Jul-2003, 07:04 AM

LOL you sound like my physics teacher. I swear he used the same analogy.

Spirit Reaper

19-Jul-2003, 07:04 AM

thanks joe...i've seen people use it to boost their speed, power and their confidence. i would like to start with that. it also relaxed them too....i just wanna start with that...i like to relax :)

that really all i want, i dont wanna learn a ka-me-ha-me-ha wave or anything. just simple stuff...

Spirit Reaper

19-Jul-2003, 07:06 AM

and about irritating people with the non stop ki threads, im really sorry! i didn't even see the little search icon up at the top...i dont mean to piss people off with repeditive threads im just another human, trying to learn some martial arts.....

i will use the search thing more often guys, so dont kung fu my ass...

Tireces

23-Aug-2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Spirit Reaper
thanks joe...i've seen people use it to boost their speed, power and their confidence.
And what makes you think this was "ki"? Because they said so? Fine, the reason I can punch harder than the average, untrained man somewhat larger than me is because my father is a mythical dragon. Now shower me with gifts befitting of a dragon half-breed, and acknowledge my awesome powers, and pay me money to show you how to use them too, because in reality, we're all descended from dragons. What? You don't believe me? Well, you just can't appreciate the finer aspects of the martial arts. Barbarian.

SoKKlab

23-Aug-2003, 06:51 PM

The August edition of inside Kung Fu has an article about Tai Chi Chuan master Henry Wang and how he can transmit his chi power without touching, stopping people in their tracks and knocking people over by wafting his hands about (Armpit Fu?).

Bit like a mobile phone mast really.

Tireces

23-Aug-2003, 07:05 PM

As andrew said, the burden of proof is on the people who believe in it. If they want to prove the validity of "spirit energy", they should put up demonstrations publicly (namely on the net), instead of forcing people to buy videos or go to seminars just to see it demonstrated. On the videos and at seminars, they should be actually TEACHING, let people see these radical demonstrations elsewhere beforehand. People shouldn't be forced to attend seminars and buy videos just to go "oooh aaah" and watch forever.

YODA

23-Aug-2003, 07:09 PM

Teaching and demonstarting is what separates the reality from the magicians trick.

Don't try to impress me with what YOU can do - teach me what I can do.

Andy Murray

23-Aug-2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by YODA
Don't try to impress me with what YOU can do - teach me what I can do.

If you don't know by now, you never will. :)

Tireces

23-Aug-2003, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by YODA
Teaching and demonstarting is what separates the reality from the magicians trick.

Don't try to impress me with what YOU can do - teach me what I can do.

Well, I'm just saying I want to see just how this is done for myself, without having to shell out cash for it, because I've never been a fan of magic shows. I hear this talk of a "no touch knockout", so I want to see the actual technique, performed on people who have no prior affiliation to or contact with the martial artist, directly or indirectly (which can't really be guaranteed, but oh well), I also want to see if the person is truly "knocked out".

YODA

23-Aug-2003, 08:43 PM

I'd like to see one of these guys do ANY of this stuff on a well conditioned athlete who didn't know about the supposed abilities of the "master" - just a friendly Vale Tudo match would do. After all - if it's a no touch thing we don't have to rely on eye boinks or pressure points - it should work well on a Randy Couture or a Tito Ortiz - even just a club level MMA athlete would do - as long as they weren't told they were supposed to "fall over".

Tireces

24-Aug-2003, 12:00 AM

Yes, I'd definitely like to see this done on someone who isnt a student of the "master" in question, or somehow affiliated. Otherwise, Hulk Hogan must have strong chi too!

http://www.wrestlecrap.com/fingerpoke/fingerpoke.gif

Whatcha gonna do, when my life energy runs wild on you??!!

SoKKlab

24-Aug-2003, 12:04 AM

Yes the force is strong in the Hulk one.

but how big is that guy doing tha flying? Like Empire State Building dimensions?

Tireces

24-Aug-2003, 01:42 AM

That would be Kevin Nash, roughly 7 feet tall, 320 pounds. Known to fans as "old stick legs", because under those pants, he's got some seriously weak legs that he injures a lot. He sure knows how to work those energy demonstrations though, eh?

SoKKlab

24-Aug-2003, 04:07 PM

Kevin could always go for a career in Basketball if his legs are a bit weak for Wrestling.

I would of thought that the ref had gone over on that one (Would of been a great effect) as well, considering how much Chi Hulk Hogan was producing.

Tireces

24-Aug-2003, 05:39 PM

Actually, it was supposed to be a storyline swerve, where the two showed down for the title, but nash jokingly rolled over for hogan after being poked by him and they united their two groups into one. So no, the ref wouldnt have bumped for that one. :D

As for Kevin, he got booted from the world of sports for his bad attitude. He's basically a self-deluded egomaniac.

white crane

26-Aug-2003, 09:05 PM

You know that tingling feeling you get when you are practising your form, usually in your hands and fingers? Thats Chi energy. We all have it. the secrets in developing it and learning how to use/direct it. Tai chi, Bagua and hsing yi are the best martial arts for developing Chi, but learning some form of Chi gong along with one of them is also helpfull. But the main thing is whether or not you believe it actually exists.

Tireces

27-Aug-2003, 10:43 PM

Um...I've never felt such a feeling. I guess I should quit martial arts now because my "chi" is too weak.

aikiMac

27-Aug-2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Andrew Green
Grand assumption being that I won't believe in something that goes against modern science and has no good evidence to support it. The burden of proof is on the person claiming it does exist, not that it doesn't.
4000 years of accupuncture. You do it, you get results. You do it, you get results, over and over again on all sorts of people. Accupuncturists can use textbooks that are centuries old, even thousands of years old, because the theories still hold true. Western "scientists," despite all their puffery and pride, can't use textbooks that are mere decades old because the "facts" have changed so much that the theories are no longer believed.

Hmmm. Pretty convincing to me. Jury votes that ki is real.

Tireces

28-Aug-2003, 12:03 AM

Go jump off a two story building and see where you turn to fix you up, those "prideful western scientists", or mister acupuncture.

aikiMac

28-Aug-2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by Tireces
Go jump off a two story building and see where you turn to fix you up, those "prideful western scientists", or mister acupuncture.
That's an ill-defined request. 'Tis obvious you don't know what accupuncture is for.

Before anyone else goes off halfcocked, I should add another obvious point: whether chi exists, and what chi does, are two entirely separate issues. To prove that "chi does not ___" or "chi is not ___" in no way proves that chi doesn't exist, because chi might very well do something else, or it might be something else. Existence and behavior are distinct issues.

Tireces

28-Aug-2003, 09:23 PM

No, its a dead on point. What good is this "chi healing" nonsense, if one can't use it to save lives? What right do you have to poke fun at "western science" if it actually saves lives? Acupuncture isn't energy at all. If I gave you a massage, and said it was because I was "settling your chi" or something like that, would you believe me?

aikiMac

28-Aug-2003, 09:30 PM

You have to make up your mind what you are talking about if you want other people to talk with you. First you said "jump off a building." Then you said "saving lives." Which is it? These are two different things. And also, there's more to health-care than saving lives. There's also the promotion of optimal health ... but maybe you hadn't considered that?

Tireces

29-Aug-2003, 01:29 AM

We're talking about proving chi exists here. You haven't. Stating that acupuncture points to "chi" as the reason it has effect is not viable proof. The fact of the matter is, if "chi" and its manipulation were so strong as people tout, then it would easily be able to heal grevious wounds. But it cant. Telling me that acupuncture prolongs lives says nothing of chi's existence. Being nice to my cat and petting it prolongs its life too, under the same proof acupuncture's own effects use. Am I beaming "healing chi" into my cat? No, by the definition of chi, I've never felt it or used it in my life. No inexplicable warmness, no powerful, unexplainable force, nothing. Nor have I ever seen someone using such an unexplainable force (yes, I have seem people CLAIMING to be using it, but it was obvious they were not). Just because people have been fooled for so long, doesn't mean everyone else has to be too. It's one of the downsides of traditional eastern thinking. So much is placed in respecting one's elders, and no ground is given for skepticism. Its a misbalance in the culture that came up with the idea of balacing two opposites to begin with. Since martial arts left the east, its been refined. No longer are people so foolish to discount other styles, and cling to techniques and mindsets that do not work because "this is/isn't the way our elders did it". You want to know why people have been practicing acupuncture for thousands of years and believe its chi theyre working with? Thats why. I'm sure you'll find practitioners who do not believe it is the nebulous concept of "chi" that makes what they do work, the same as you will find practitioners of other "chi" arts that are more realistic in their approach. I've read at least one article by a man who did Tai Chi, but had a far more realistic approach to it.

Kat

29-Aug-2003, 03:29 AM

Here's some more issues to deal with
Discuss Placebo Effect in relation to Preventative Heath Practises.
IMA schools lack of interaction with other MA fighting styles.
Lack of Studies into effect of Medative practises on Longevity.
Cultural Linguistic Msyticfication of Common Status related Positions.

Man I have got to get out of Uni

:D

aikiMac

29-Aug-2003, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Tireces
We're talking about proving chi exists here. You haven't. Stating that acupuncture points to "chi" as the reason it has effect is not viable proof. ... Telling me that acupuncture prolongs lives says nothing of chi's existence.

Ahhh ... it's the explanation that you don't like, not the phenomena. That's something different. Fine. Don't call it "chi." Call it the energy that is inside the body. See, living cells move, but dead cells don't. Why? Why don't dead cells move? I don't fully know why, and neither does anybody else, because no one fully understands life. But let's give that life-energy any name you like. Some people like the name "chi." Some people like the name "the energy that made the body." The name doesn't matter. The thing behind the name matters. That thing behind the name is what heals the body. Accupuncture, tai chi, chi gong, yoga, and chiropractic all tap into that life energy and get results. And it's their results that prove the existence of ... of whatever you want to call it, and we might as well call it chi!

Unfortunately, charletans like to pretend that they are tapping into the same chi, when in reality, they are tricksters. But their fraud (or ignorance, if we give them the benefit of doubt) does not negate the theory or the results of healers. One needs to separate the legitimate people from the frauds.

white crane

02-Sep-2003, 07:32 PM

Tireces,
Why are you so resistant to the concept of chi? I don't know for a fact that it exists but I can definately feel what I take to be it's effects when I do my hand forms, martial training and chi gong etc. I'm not some easily fooled kid who came into the martial arts with any preconceived ideas, but I can feel things happening that I can't explain. Life is all about energy. Why should it not be possible for someone to develop that energy through the correct type of practice and use it for healing, martial power etc? The fact that you cant feel it may be because you don't believe in it or are not open to the possibility that it exists whereas others are.
I may be completely wrong about this but I don't believe I am. If I am then i am prepared to wear the 'Donkey Ears' when the truth of the matter is revealed to me.
It is also important as previously stated, to separate the Bull@&$£ from the truth. I have never met nor do I think I ever will meet anyone who can genuinly demonstrate Empty Force or no touch knockouts. It is perhaps this type of thing that causes so much resistance to the concept.

Tai

18-Sep-2003, 08:51 PM

Sorry to intrude, but I just stumbled upon this thread. I agree that the existence of chi seems unreal, too many ideas brought on by society especially cartoons give people the impression that in order to demonstrate the usage of power it must be visible. I dont know why they just do.
Chi is energy the body has inside, the "spark" that makes the heart pump, the blood flow, your lungs to work. It can be manipulated, sometimes to make your body stronger or able to resist more, or produce a hightening of senses during meditation.
I was taught to use the sword as my fighting style so I was also taught the sword must become me in a way. Focusing my body's energy into the sword to wield it like it should be. Finding weaknesses in armor and targets through the hightened senses. Most of the teachers I know are not so open to teach others or like publicity and such, because the arts they teach are mostly from thier families passed on through generations.

Reiki

02-Nov-2003, 11:35 PM

I joined up today and stumbled on this thread too. I use ki in healing every day, I am a Reiki Master. I wouldn't worry about trying to explain it, ever try explaining why something is alive? It just is. Call it ki, chi, prana, energy, biomagnetic force, or whatever you like if you must give it a name.

Better to learn how to work with it and use it. :)

Learn Qui gong, tai chi or become a reiki practioner, then you will have the proof you desire.

As a matter of interest the kata that make most use of ki and its applications are the mainstream of many systems: Naihanchin, Sanchin and Tensho.

We learn the internal arts as part of our journey to become martial artists in our system. It is a facscinating study and I can recommend it to anyone who wants to widen their horizon.

SPAWNPAIN

03-Nov-2003, 11:25 AM

Spirit Reaper , i know an excercise that maybe can help you, stand up in from of a wall and try to push it forward without touching it, just put your hands in front of the wall and try hard not with your muscles but your inner energy, you can do it also against a table trying to push it down or up ( with out touching it ok? ) :)

:p Another exercise is walking around with your palms down feeling you susbtract energy from the earth. :) ]

:o And the last one i know is to stand up making your body heavier, and walking as you had glued your feet to the floor.

:Alien: This tehcniques won't work if you don't focus and concentrate on what you are doing and waht you want.

:( ? How to know if it is working?

If you feel that your hands are really hot the same with your feet, for sure it is working ;)

zun

03-Nov-2003, 12:37 PM

Wether Chi, Ki, Energy exists - what does it matter. It's like proving electricity 200 years ago - we would see electricity during a thunderstorm, otherwise electricity could not be measured, used or harnessed. It was called the work of the devil. In the same way, we need science and technology to move on.

The best scientific name I've heard for chi is Electromagnetic force. It's said to be the same that sharks use to detect their quarry.

I was a disbeliever of chi until I started Taiji. Guys if you don't believe in chi - fine. I'm not here to prove or disprove chi. What I would recommend is that you go along to a Internal MA workshop or use your external MA against 90 year-old taiji expert. Proof indeed :)

One of the best exercises I know, is a posture called Embracing the tree (aka Holding the balloon).

Raise your arms so they about shoulder height. Keep the arms slightly bent. Legs slight bent, shoulder width. Pelvis tucked under. Imagine hugging the tree.

Keep the static posture for an hour.

After a few minutes, your arms will ache. Ignore this and just when you think you can't hold your arms up any longer - your chi will kick in to hold it up for as long as you want. The feeling is as spawnpain describes it. You may also feel some magnetic effect :)

LilBunnyRabbit

03-Nov-2003, 02:52 PM

The best scientific name I've heard for chi is Electromagnetic force. It's said to be the same that sharks use to detect their quarry.

*choke, cough, splutter*

You mean their extraordinary sense of scent?

Electromagnetic force huh? Would love to know where you got that one from.

What I would recommend is that you go along to a Internal MA workshop or use your external MA against 90 year-old taiji expert. Proof indeed

Done, or at least done the first one. Played with a 46 year old taijia expert for the second. Haven't yet seen any proof, or experienced it. Amusing when the instuctor of the class told me that I was paralysed though.

zun

04-Nov-2003, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by ckdstudent
*choke, cough, splutter*

You mean their extraordinary sense of scent?

Electromagnetic force huh? Would love to know where you got that one from.

Hammer head sharks.
http://www.thebigzoo.com/zoo/Sphyrnidae.asp

No less from American scientist:
http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/15816
The fact that the hammerhead can perceive very weak electromagnetic fields

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Done, or at least done the first one. Played with a 46 year old taijia expert for the second. Haven't yet seen any proof, or experienced it. Amusing when the instuctor of the class told me that I was paralysed though.

http://crane.50megs.com/index6j.htm

Just because you are not aware of certain facts or experiences, does not proof make.

I suggest keeping an open mind.

LilBunnyRabbit

04-Nov-2003, 12:10 PM

Fair enough on the electromagnetic force, thought they just used it for navigation. Impressive that.

Notice that the article also says it is an ability which humans lack.

Just because you are not aware of certain facts or experiences, does not proof make.

I've read that article before, wanted actual proof or at least evidence then. And from that article:

,"Taiji is a very powerful art, but it is an art for superhumans. For us ordinary humans it is better to stick to Karate."

Not a particularly good art then, is it, if only superhumans can do it?

How many of those stories are true? It is hard to tell, surely.

Well at least the writer admits that.

Out of these millions how many can actually attain the efficiency level of Mr Chen? Perhaps only 1 in 10000 can.

Right, so I'll go to the local class and tell the people there that they've got less than a 1% chance of being the incredibly gifted superhumans who can actually use it.

The rest of the 9999 probably can't use Taiji to defend themselves even if their lives depended on it.

I repeat, fairly useless then, ain't it?

I've read and heard far too many stories like this with no evidence to be convinced by another one, yet again with no actual evidence.

zun

04-Nov-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Notice that the article also says it is an ability which humans lack.

We have to put this context. It mentions that sharks can perceive weak electromagnetic forces. It says nothing about sharks OR humans being able to OR not able to generate electromagnetic forces.

Also note that I only mentioned the best scientific name I've come across for chi is electromagnetic force. I did not proffer this article as proof of chi. Just as proof that sharks use electromagnetic force.

Not a particularly good art then, is it, if only superhumans can do it?

Really? a frail old man who looked more suitable for an old folks home was able to defeat the king of karate, who defeated the likes of the black cobra muay thai fighter. I have to disagree - taiji is truly is an amazing and spectactular art.

Right, so I'll go to the local class and tell the people there that they've got less than a 1% chance of being the incredibly gifted superhumans who can actually use it.

I repeat, fairly useless then, ain't it?

The problem is not the art. The problem is with the artist.

An external MA takes a few months to learn and use. Heck, I was able to use Muay Thai effectively after just 3 months.

An internal MA takes years to learn. It takes years to attain the (internal) skill level. It takes further years of dedication to use it in combat. Very few have the dedication, or even the right instructor, to learn the art. Hence, the definition of superhuman.

Btw, you might want to extend research beyond your local class or backyard. :p

Anyhow, we've digressed. This discusion is about Chi and not the validity of taiji.

I've read and heard far too many stories like this with no evidence to be convinced by another one, yet again with no actual evidence.

How do you prove to a blindman the existence of colour?

ns_oni

09-Nov-2003, 11:55 PM

ive seen ki in use, its a bit hard to believe it if you havent seen it, but dont just go saying "it doesnt exist"

Keep trying reaper!

LilBunnyRabbit

10-Nov-2003, 01:03 AM

Also note that I only mentioned the best scientific name I've come across for chi is electromagnetic force.

Chi being electromagnetic force was not mentioned in any of the articles you mentioned, nor any way that it could be. More importantly if it were electromagnetic force, then it would be possible to detect it under scientific conditions with relative ease. For some mysterious reason this has never been achieved. But of course, it must be because chi is a mysterious power and cannot be detected by modern technology or used whenever it is being measured under experimental conditions.

Really? a frail old man who looked more suitable for an old folks home was able to defeat the king of karate, who defeated the likes of the black cobra muay thai fighter.

Well, having looked at the supposed pictures of the fight I'd say its less of the frail old man who looks more suitable for an old folks home, and more hard old goit who's done martial arts for so long he doesn't even know what he's doing any more and just reacts.

Btw, you might want to extend research beyond your local class or backyard.

I have done. You might want to extend yours beyond the standard 'chi and internal arts are all powerful' propoganda.

How do you prove to a blindman the existence of colour?

You don't, but you do provide evidence of it by getting reliable sources to tell him about it, or by working from first principles up to electromagnetic radiation and wavelengths, then switch to biology for a while before getting onto the interface.

ive seen ki in use, its a bit hard to believe it if you havent seen it, but dont just go saying "it doesnt exist"

I've seen ki in use as well. Its a bit hard to believe it if you've seen how many of the 'ki tricks' are done, but don't just go saying it exists.

ns_oni

10-Nov-2003, 06:32 AM

They weren't tricks;)

Kwajman

10-Nov-2003, 03:14 PM

Akimac and Tireces, also don't underestimate the power of the mind. I think most everyone here will agree that the mind can overcome the body and do some incredible things that we think we can't do. Look at soldiers under severely stressful conditions in training and in battle, look at mothers rescuing children. The mind is a powerful thing. I am a scientist and usually feel that if I can't see it, smell it, taste it, test it, burn it, boil it, feel it, or somehow hold it in my hand, then its not there. But chi is something within us, each differently perhaps, that we may or may not recognize. You both present very good arguments IMO!

LilBunnyRabbit

10-Nov-2003, 04:21 PM

Look at soldiers under severely stressful conditions in training and in battle, look at mothers rescuing children.

Look at adrenaline, hysterical strength. Look at the massive injuries the granny lifting the bus sustains in doing so, even though she manages.

Kwajman

10-Nov-2003, 05:44 PM

Absolutely CKD! Thats exactly what I mean, is it adrenalin, is it chi? Just makes for a good story with a lot of different viewpoints.

zun

11-Nov-2003, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Chi being electromagnetic force was not mentioned in any of the articles you mentioned, nor any way that it could be.

As a reminder, if you don't mind - I'll quote myself.

The best scientific name I've heard for chi is Electromagnetic force. It's said to be the same that sharks use to detect their quarry.

Your response:

Originally posted by ckdstudent
*choke, cough, splutter*

You mean their extraordinary sense of scent?

Electromagnetic force huh? Would love to know where you got that one from.

The articles posted, especially from american scientist, answered your question beyond doubt: Sharks use electromagnetic force to detect their quarry.

Originally posted by ckdstudent:
Fair enough on the electromagnetic force, thought they just used it for navigation. Impressive that.

I'll reiterate - the articles were not posted to demonstrate a link between chi, electromagnetic force and sharks. Only to answer to your question that sharks use electromagnetic force to detect quarry. The article does not discuss the generation of chi, electromagnetism by humans or sharks.

Originally posted by ckdstudent:
More importantly if it were electromagnetic force, then it would be possible to detect it under scientific conditions with relative ease.
For some mysterious reason this has never been achieved. But of course, it must be because chi is a mysterious power and cannot be detected by modern technology or used whenever it is being measured under experimental conditions.

I did not say it is exactly electromagnetic energy. I said the best name I have heard for Chi is electromagnetism force. Eventhough it is not exactly electromagnetic energy, there is, however, is a correlation between electromagnetism of the body and chi.

http://www.dallas.net/~matzke/papers/chiwater.html

Bear in mind, that in regards to Chi, western science is approximately 2000-3000 years behind the eastern world. It is still catching up. Almost everyday new discoveries and theories about the human body are made. For example, western science is not able to explain nor measure hypnosis. Still though hypnosis miracously continues to work.

I wish you would not use sweeping generalisation such as if it were electromagnetic force, then it would be possible to detect this.. this has never been achieved without proper references.

http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/icmart/baltic/abstract/ab1.html

Furthermore, you can amazingly witness the movement of chi as it is detected by an infrared camera on National Geographics documentary "Kung Fu: Myths and Logic of Shaolin Kung Fu". There are also demonstrations of the effect of chi, and explanation that many of the feats, especially over-flexibility (360 degree!), would not be possible without chi cultivation.

Originally posted by ckdstudent:

Well, having looked at the supposed pictures of the fight I'd say its less of the frail old man who looks more suitable for an old folks home, and more hard old goit who's done martial arts for so long he doesn't even know what he's doing any more and just reacts.

Where are the photos of the fight? Please supply a link because I can't these photos on the web page I provided.

Whether or not the old man is an old goit, he fought the King of Karate. A man who killed animals (cows, horses, etc) with one punch, who destroyed a muay thai fighter. The old man, old goit, or even as a young strong athletic man obviously has something magical to be able to defeat the king of karate with the killer punch!

You surely don't mean to use having looked as the basis of you argument. Speaking to you as an intelligent person, please let's not drag this conversation into pure spectulation. I've provided links and references to back-up each and every single one of my claims. As yet, I'm still waiting for concrete evidence to back up your sweeping generalisations.

Originally posted by zun:
Btw, you might want to extend research beyond your local class or backyard. :P

Originally posted by ckdstudent:
I have done. You might want to extend yours beyond the standard 'chi and internal arts are all powerful' propoganda.

Ouch! Dude! That was a little below the belt. I was referring to where you said, and I quote, Right, so I'll go to the local class.... Just a little cheeky and subtle reminder - maybe a little too subtle - that to find an expert (or even a good instructor) you might need to look further than your just local class.

If you do not believe in chi, that's okay. Don't really care either way. All I ask is that you respect that there are many seasoned MAs, such as the Shaolin Monks who do, have experienced it and in many cases, is a basis for their external and internal MAs.

Originally posted by zun:
How do you prove to a blindman the existence of colour?

Originally posted by ckdstudent:

You don't, but you do provide evidence of it by getting reliable sources to tell him about it, or by working from first principles up to electromagnetic radiation and wavelengths, then switch to biology for a while before getting onto the interface.

Precisely. You don't.

1. Whether or not you provide the evidence;
2. whether or not the blindman believes the evidence;
3. whether or not the blindman believes the reliable sources;
4. whether or not the blindman believes in the principles of science (biolody, physics, etc);
5. whether or not the blindman can experiences colour;
6. Finally, whether or not you are able to prove it;
this does not change the indisputable fact: colour exists.

Originally posted by ckdstudent:

I've seen ki in use as well. Its a bit hard to believe it if you've seen how many of the 'ki tricks' are done, but don't just go saying it exists.

I'd be interested in knowing of your experiences of ki/chi.

Stiles

11-Nov-2003, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by zun
As a reminder, if you don't mind - I'll quote myself.

Your response:

The articles posted, especially from american scientist, answered your question beyond doubt: Sharks use electromagnetic force to detect their quarry.

I'll reiterate - the articles were not posted to demonstrate a link between chi, electromagnetic force and sharks. Only to answer to your question that sharks use electromagnetic force to detect quarry. The article does not discuss the generation of chi, electromagnetism by humans or sharks.

I did not say it is exactly electromagnetic energy. I said the best name I have heard for Chi is electromagnetism force. Eventhough it is not exactly electromagnetic energy, there is, however, is a correlation between electromagnetism of the body and chi.

http://www.dallas.net/~matzke/papers/chiwater.html

Bear in mind, that in regards to Chi, western science is approximately 2000-3000 years behind the eastern world. It is still catching up. Almost everyday new discoveries and theories about the human body are made. For example, western science is not able to explain nor measure hypnosis. Still though hypnosis miracously continues to work.

I wish you would not use sweeping generalisation such as if it were electromagnetic force, then it would be possible to detect this.. this has never been achieved without proper references.

http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/icmart/baltic/abstract/ab1.html

Furthermore, you can amazingly witness the movement of chi as it is detected by an infrared camera on National Geographics documentary "Kung Fu: Myths and Logic of Shaolin Kung Fu". There are also demonstrations of the effect of chi, and explanation that many of the feats, especially over-flexibility (360 degree!), would not be possible without chi cultivation.

Where are the photos of the fight? Please supply a link because I can't these photos on the web page I provided.

Whether or not the old man is an old goit, he fought the King of Karate. A man who killed animals (cows, horses, etc) with one punch, who destroyed a muay thai fighter. The old man, old goit, or even as a young strong athletic man obviously has something magical to be able to defeat the king of karate with the killer punch!

You surely don't mean to use having looked as the basis of you argument. Speaking to you as an intelligent person, please let's not drag this conversation into pure spectulation. I've provided links and references to back-up each and every single one of my claims. As yet, I'm still waiting for concrete evidence to back up your sweeping generalisations.

Ouch! Dude! That was a little below the belt. I was referring to where you said, and I quote, Right, so I'll go to the local class.... Just a little cheeky and subtle reminder - maybe a little too subtle - that to find an expert (or even a good instructor) you might need to look further than your just local class.

If you do not believe in chi, that's okay. Don't really care either way. All I ask is that you respect that there are many seasoned MAs, such as the Shaolin Monks who do, have experienced it and in many cases, is a basis for their external and internal MAs.

Precisely. You don't.

1. Whether or not you provide the evidence;
2. whether or not the blindman believes the evidence;
3. whether or not the blindman believes the reliable sources;
4. whether or not the blindman believes in the principles of science (biolody, physics, etc);
5. whether or not the blindman can experiences colour;
6. Finally, whether or not you are able to prove it;
this does not change the indisputable fact: colour exists.

I'd be interested in knowing of your experiences of ki/chi.

Amen :Angel:

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Nov-2003, 04:42 PM

His Chi imprinted Vital Energy tape technology (general meditation and self help tapes) provides many clues towards understanding the relationship between EMF and Chi.

Reliable source then, ain't he? Wonder how much he sells his tapes for.

Conventional dubbing of vital energy tapes causes a very large drop in perceived Chi when playing the copy, and the manufacturing process of the tapes compensates for this. Commercially available vital energy tapes have Chi patterns and appropriate music on one side and only Chi patterns on the other side.

See above. Sounds to me more like he just wants to sell people his Vital Energy tapes for lots of money, and wants a way to justify it.

First hand reports by a Chi sensitive indicates that sound can also be used as a carrier for Chi emitted by musicians during a live concert.

So essentially, his high-tech chi measuring machine is to get someone who believes in it, and ask them if they felt it. Doesn't sound particularly reliable to me. Who doesn't feel better after a live concert?

I'll leave the rest of the 'paper' for now.

For example, western science is not able to explain nor measure hypnosis. Still though hypnosis miracously continues to work.

Deeply relaxive state in which the normal human inhibitions are repressed, including the normal restriction on following orders. People who lift incredibly heavy things or perform massive feats of strength under hypnosis often suffer from similar injuries as those who make use of hysterical strength. The state itself has strong similarities to being drunk, the voice that is 'you' is still present, but not as restrictive as usual, allowing you to be more easily persuaded of things.

We have carried out the measurements with a Digital meter RLC 0711 manufactured by IAEMI Bucharest. The measured parameters were: THE GENERAL RESISTANCE OF THE BODY AND THE GENERAL CAPACITY.

Note that they haven't measured the magical electromagnetic force emanating from the body to perform amazing feats of chi.

Whether or not the old man is an old goit, he fought the King of Karate. A man who killed animals (cows, horses, etc) with one punch, who destroyed a muay thai fighter. The old man, old goit, or even as a young strong athletic man obviously has something magical to be able to defeat the king of karate with the killer punch!

There's various threads about both the fight, and the king of karate, on this board. That was also where the link to the photos comes from, I forget where it is off-hand.

Speaking to you as an intelligent person, please let's not drag this conversation into pure spectulation.

Ah, so Dr Khronos' mystical chi detection method isn't pure speculation?

I've provided links and references to back-up each and every single one of my claims. As yet, I'm still waiting for concrete evidence to back up your sweeping generalisations.

Well, I'm not going to mail you my collection of physics text books and other hard-copy resources, but if you want the titles and ISBNs then I'm perfectly happy to give them to you. I don't rely on the web for sources, far too many crackpots out there.

If you do not believe in chi, that's okay. Don't really care either way. All I ask is that you respect that there are many seasoned MAs, such as the Shaolin Monks who do, have experienced it and in many cases, is a basis for their external and internal MAs.

I respect them for their achievements, which are just plain impressive. I do not respect the spread of snake oil as a cure-all.

Finally, whether or not you are able to prove it;
this does not change the indisputable fact: colour exists.

If you want, I can quite happily dispute that fact. Colour is merely a human interpretation of wavelength variation in the electromagnetic spectrum. From an objective viewpoint, colour is merely a handy concept, not something where the existence can be proven any more than the existence of, say, sentience in another person.

Andy Murray

11-Nov-2003, 04:47 PM

Jimmy,
you get an extra vote in the 'Master of Sarcasm' thread for that post :D

zun

11-Nov-2003, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Deeply relaxive state in which the normal human inhibitions are repressed, including the normal restriction on following orders.

That's an explanation. Now where's the science? Measurements? References?

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Well, I'm not going to mail you my collection of physics text books and other hard-copy resources, but if you want the titles and ISBNs then I'm perfectly happy to give them to you. I don't rely on the web for sources, far too many crackpots out there.

FIne. Mail the forum your soft copy references. If you can't provide verifiable references from reliable sources, you're arguments don't hold upto scrutiny in the forum.

Also, get some new books to plug holes in the gaps of your knowledge and experiences - especially with regards to electromagnetism and sharks! :p

Originally posted by ckdstudent

I respect them for their achievements, which are just plain impressive.

Ah. Now we're getting somewhere. As you respect their achievements, you must also be naturally aware that they attribute many of their achievements to chi cultivation.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

I do not respect the spread of snake oil as a cure-all.

Never asked you respect them for snake oil (though Dit Da Jow comes close for martial artists). This is not a discussion about snake oil. Admittedly there are many things that the eastern science advocates that I do not agree with. In the same vein, science in the western world has been mistaken numerous times and is continously learning - often through exploration of other cultures practices. Chi and MA are definately part of the good things that eastern culture has provided.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

If you want, I can quite happily dispute that fact. Colour is merely a human interpretation of wavelength variation in the electromagnetic spectrum. From an objective viewpoint, colour is merely a handy concept, not something where the existence can be proven any more than the existence of, say, sentience in another person.

You can dispute that fact as much as you want. Actually please do. Because your aguments have been based on science, the more you work towards removing the credence of science, the more the rest of your reasoning falls down. Fantastic.

NB. Everything is a human interpretation. Just as colour is a human interpretation, so is chi. And if you dispute colour, you definately can't accept chi.

Again, I'll ask. You said you have experiences of chi. In order to promote a healthy on-topic discussion, what are these experiences?

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Nov-2003, 11:56 PM

That's an explanation. Now where's the science? Measurements? References?

Not really my field, ask a psychologist. I was simply answering your statement that there was no scientific explanation for hypnosis.

FIne. Mail the forum your soft copy references. If you can't provide verifiable references from reliable sources, you're arguments don't hold upto scrutiny in the forum.

Hardcopy, not soft copy. And if I must:
-Atoms in Contact by B.R.Jennings and V.J.Morris
-Quantum Physics of Atoms, Molecules, Solids, Nuclei, and Particles, 2nd edition, by Robert Eisberg and Robert Resnick
-Electromagnetism 2nd edition by I.S.Grant and W.R.Phillips
-Quantum Mechanics by Sara M McMurry
-The Biomechanics of Sports Techniques, 4th edition, by James G.Hay
-Basic Biomechanics by Susan J.Hall
-Electromagnetic Fields and Waves, 2nd edition, by Paul Lorrain and Dale Corson
-Thermal Physics, 2nd edition, by C.B.P. Finn
-The Body Electric by James Geary
-Fundamentals of Physics by Halliday, Resnick and Walker

If you want ISBN numbers, prices, or places to buy them I can provide those as well.

Also, get some new books to plug holes in the gaps of your knowledge and experiences - especially with regards to electromagnetism and sharks!

Firstly, that's technically biology, secondly I prefer New Scientist to Scientific American, its less sensational, and thirdly, once you've actually checked some of my text books I'll get some more to cover the knowledge you picked up from a magazine.

Ah. Now we're getting somewhere. As you respect their achievements, you must also be naturally aware that they attribute many of their achievements to chi cultivation.

And mystics used to attribute their effectiveness with herbs to nature spirits, now those herbs have been used to derive medical drugs.

In the same vein, science in the western world has been mistaken numerous times and is continously learning - often through exploration of other cultures practices.

And often through actual experimentation based on those practices to see the reason that they work, when they work, or showing that they don't, when they don't.

Because your aguments have been based on science, the more you work towards removing the credence of science, the more the rest of your reasoning falls down. Fantastic.

Disputing the existence of colour does not actually affect the credence of science, I simply said that colour is nothing more than a concept used by humans to describe the wavelength of light in the visible spectrum, in and of itself, colour does not exist. It exists purely as a measuring quantity, like fahrenheit or centigrade.

Everything is a human interpretation. Just as colour is a human interpretation, so is chi. And if you dispute colour, you definately can't accept chi.

However some human interpretation can be backed up by millions of other humans performing the same test and getting the same result, other human interpretation can't be. Ask a synaesthetic what blue is sometime.

Again, I'll ask. You said you have experiences of chi. In order to promote a healthy on-topic discussion, what are these experiences?

Maybe I should rephrase that. Non-experiences. Essentially every time someone has claimed to be using chi on me, for whatever reason, it has either failed, or been an application of biomechanics (posturing of the body and movement for maximum effect). I have no problems with peopl using it as a visualisation technique, its when people claim it has actual existence.

May I point out that various institutes have offered large prizes for anyone willing to demonstrate any sort of mystical power under scientific conditions. So far none have been claimed.

zun

12-Nov-2003, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Not really my field, ask a psychologist. I was simply answering your statement that there was no scientific explanation for hypnosis.

And yet it works. Exactly the same thing with chi - no scientific explanation - yet it works.

btw, I know too many psychologists, unfortunately.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Hardcopy, not soft copy. And if I must:
-Atoms in Contact by B.R.Jennings and V.J.Morris
-Quantum Physics of Atoms, Molecules, Solids, Nuclei, and Particles, 2nd edition, by Robert Eisberg and Robert Resnick
-Electromagnetism 2nd edition by I.S.Grant and W.R.Phillips
-Quantum Mechanics by Sara M McMurry
-The Biomechanics of Sports Techniques, 4th edition, by James G.Hay
-Basic Biomechanics by Susan J.Hall
-Electromagnetic Fields and Waves, 2nd edition, by Paul Lorrain and Dale Corson
-Thermal Physics, 2nd edition, by C.B.P. Finn
-The Body Electric by James Geary
-Fundamentals of Physics by Halliday, Resnick and Walker

If you want ISBN numbers, prices, or places to buy them I can provide those as well.

Page numbers please where, as stated in your previous discussions, they refer to and completely discount chi. You mentioned statements like chi has never been recorded - I assume I can find it in the above books otherwise provide more sources. btw, line numbers would be good too - would save me time ploughing through the above books. ISBNs would be kewl, so I can be assured I have the right book. If I am not able to locate it, I may need a pointer to find a bookshop that will supply it.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Firstly, that's technically biology, secondly I prefer New Scientist to Scientific American, its less sensational, and thirdly, once you've actually checked some of my text books I'll get some more to cover the knowledge you picked up from a magazine.

Firstly it's not your field because it is psychology. Secondly your saying its not your field because it's technically biology. Thirdly, if it's not physics it's not your field, right? In which case, as I originally suggested keep an mind open and learn a new field :)

Originally posted by ckdstudent

And mystics used to attribute their effectiveness with herbs to nature spirits, now those herbs have been used to derive medical drugs.

Off topic. Not related to chi.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

And often through actual experimentation based on those practices to see the reason that they work, when they work, or showing that they don't, when they don't.

Or if it works, they can't explain it (or get the explanation wrong!)

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Disputing the existence of colour does not actually affect the credence of science, I simply said that colour is nothing more than a concept used by humans to describe the wavelength of light in the visible spectrum, in and of itself, colour does not exist. It exists purely as a measuring quantity, like fahrenheit or centigrade.

If you're going to compare, please compare like with like. Compare colour with heat. Compare hue with fahrenheit and centrigrade if you must. For your next assigment, please dispute the existence of heat!

Dude! You're getting your facts mixed up again, sort it out! :)

Originally posted by ckdstudent

However some human interpretation can be backed up by millions of other humans performing the same test and getting the same result, other human interpretation can't be. Ask a synaesthetic what blue is sometime.

Ok, so we're discussing a medical condition. How about asking schizophrenic synaesthetic person what red is? Will you always get the same answer, or will it depend on who you talk to?

The above is based on conjecture. Where's the science bit? I thought you were a man of science.

Science is derived from the human interpretation of repeatable and observable experiments. As I said everything is human interpretation. And this explains why science can be incorrect from time to time.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Maybe I should rephrase that. Non-experiences. Essentially every time someone has claimed to be using chi on me, for whatever reason, it has either failed, or been an application of biomechanics (posturing of the body and movement for maximum effect). I have no problems with peopl using it as a visualisation technique, its when people claim it has actual existence.

Please define "claimed to be using chi on me". Are you specifying that someone used it as a weapon? Like someone tried to knock you out with it? This is not chi. This someone trying to demonstrate "empty force" crap, which doesn't work btw.

What do you mean by a visualisation technique?

What are your other experiences of chi?

Originally posted by ckdstudent

May I point out that various institutes have offered large prizes for anyone willing to demonstrate any sort of mystical power under scientific conditions. So far none have been claimed.

Chi is not mystical, just unexplained by science. The same with hypnosis.

Please provide references to these institutions - names, website etc. I'm familiar with the work of James Randi. His work relating to chi is when people claim to manifest chi as some sort of telekinetic power. This I vehemently do not believe is possible with chi. Chi is not Uri Geller and Uri Geller is not chi!

Chi, afaik, only manifests itself within the body, though the inductance of the chi can be felt a very short distance away.

LilBunnyRabbit

12-Nov-2003, 02:07 AM

I'm giving up on the science, you're either misinterpreting, misquoting, or just plain ignoring any arguments I've made.

Chi, afaik, only manifests itself within the body, though the inductance of the chi can be felt a very short distance away.

How exactly do you believe chi manifests itself then? I'm arguing against the mystical powers associated with it, healing, disabling other people on contact, the stuff this thread was originally discussing. If you're describing it as something purely within you then I've got no problem with that, as long as you don't subscribe to things like the belief that increasing the ability to turn your head by 1 degree a day will eventually result in 360 degree rotation. Basically, what are you saying that chi can do?

Kwan Jang

12-Nov-2003, 05:19 AM

-CKD Student, I also have a physics background, though adittedly as my minor and more of an interest in relativistic astro physics. I do know that there is serious research that has been done with positive results in chi both at Stanford University and at UC San Francisco. Iknow this because I have read at least some of the studies. In fact, Stanford was actually seriously looking into creating an entire department dedicated to "Life Force Sciences" a couple of years ago. I honestly don't know what has happened with that project since then.
-Also, this past weekend, I was at a semnar with George Dillman and he was saying (I have not read the study myself, yet) that there was a recent study done at a Canadian University that (Mr. Dillman said) proved the existance of chi. He said some of his people were involved with the study and they were able to monitor the energy with the use of equipment used for detecting earthquakes and that they were able to record emisions of chi that registered between .2 and .4 on the richter scale. Like I said, I have not seen this data myself (yet), so I can not comment either way, but I do know that Dillman and his people have been involved with several university studies over the years and have made positive progress in this area. I know that Mr. Dillman's penchant for the theatrical has a tendency to put off some people (and being quite honest, at times me included), however, he really has done a lot to advance the arts and during the times I've talked and trained both with him and many of his master-level students, I really believe that he honestly believes in waht he is doing and is truly trying to advance the arts.
-Finally, some people around here are so opposed to the concept of chi/ki that I can't help but wondering if it is because it is out of their worldview that they blind themselves to the possibility. In a way it reminds me of so-called "Christian Scientists" who blind themselves to evolution so much that they will claim that all discoveries of man's ancestors were hoaxes and that all the Neandretal skeletons are merely "an old man with arthritis". Funny how the muscle insertions, ect. were not of homo sapiens then.
-I personally do not believe all the claims made out there. I do believe that there is something out there worthy of further research. Aslo, if you trade the words "chakra"(Hindu) or Go dai (japanese) for endocrine system and chi/ki for the body's electrical system (nervous system), I think most educated people would be a lot more reseptive.

Kwan Jang

12-Nov-2003, 05:23 AM

-OK, I just re-read my own post. Considering how many typos I had, it is definitely time for me to go to bed.

zun

13-Nov-2003, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by ckdstudent
I'm giving up on the science, you're either misinterpreting, misquoting, or just plain ignoring any arguments I've made.

Aw, shucks. All I asked for were references.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

How exactly do you believe chi manifests itself then?

Science currently isn't in a position to fully explain this.

http://www.artic.edu/taoism/glossary.php

qi (pronounced: chee) (n) literally air, water, vapor, or breath—a central concept in Taoism, Chinese medicine, philosophy, and art in general. Qi refers to the rhythmic energy that constitutes each and every thing. In Taoism, energy and matter are one and the same—thus all people are actually qi itself.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

I'm arguing against the mystical powers associated with it, healing, disabling other people on contact, the stuff this thread was originally discussing.

With regards to chi being used as empty force to knock opponents from a distance or persons who claim to use psychic force to bend spoons, levitate etc., I along with James Randi et al do not believe such empty force exists.

Once a person has built up enough chi, they may be able to on contact transfer the chi to heal and destroy the other person.

For instance acupuncture and acupressure is used to heal many debilitating ailments (mental and physical). The practioners using direct skin to skin contact or needles to transfer their own chi stimulate the stagnent chi of the patient.

On the other hand, transfer enough chi on contact at points such acupuncture points, can kill. For instance Dim Mak strikes to the chest can cause commotio cordis (cardiac concussion).

Chi, afaik, cannot be used as weapon beyond the immediate vicinity of the body. That is, beyond about striking range, say, .5 metres. Within very close proximity, it is possible to use chi disruption without contact to interrupt the natural flow of chi in your opponent's body.

Originally posted by ckdstudent
If you're describing it as something purely within you then I've got no problem with that, as long as you don't subscribe to things like the belief that increasing the ability to turn your head by 1 degree a day will eventually result in 360 degree rotation.

Chi manifests itself within the body and the inductance can be felt a very short distance away - ie within arm length. Though we may not all see chi, chi as reported by many on this forum, is tangible. This inductance or aura of chi can be directly felt.

Can chi be used as a weapon? Definately.
Can chi be used as a weapon from a far (like a gun)? No, imho.
Can chi be used to self heal? yes.
Can chi be used to heal others on contact? Yes.
Can chi be used to heal others from a far? I don't know.

Whether chi can be used to rotate your head - I don't know. Chi can be used to strengthen and enhance flexibility to allow limbs, such as the leg, to complete a rotation.

btw, be aware that some contortionists can rotate their head by 360 degrees.

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Basically, what are you saying that chi can do?

Beyond a strong pugilistic effect, some of the effects of chi (through chi gung exercises, internal martial arts, etc.) follow.

Improved immune system
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/09/030922064321.htm

musculoskeletal, e.g arthritis
http://www.arthritis.org/resources/arthritistoday/2000_archives/2000_07_08_taichi.asp

I had started writing a list, as above. There however is a website that's already done this.

http://www.krapu4.com/taichi/research/tairesum.htm
References quoted are on the website.

Balance

Improved strength, mobility, balance, endurance (Tse & Bailey, 1992)

Significant improvement in balance maintained (Wolfson, et al.,1993 and 1996)

Other balance related studies (Judge, et al., 1993)

Cardiovascular

Lowers resting blood pressure (Sun, 1994), (Sun, et al., 1996), (Young, 1999)

Low to moderate intensity exercise (Zhou, 1984)

Safe exercise for individuals at high risk for cardiovascular disease (Schneider & Leung 1991)

May delay decline of cardiorespiratory function in older adults (Lai, et al., 1995)

May be prescribed as suitable aerobic exercise for older adults (Lai, et al., 1993)

Most recommended aerobic exercise for coronary artery disease (Ng 1992)

In relation to recovery from heart attack (Channer, et al., 1996)

Other cardiovascular related studies (Gong, et al., 1981), (Lan, et al., 1996)

Elderly or Aging Populations

General studies (Ross & Preswalla, 1998), (Sun, 1994), (Lan, et al., 1998),
(Zhou, 1982)

Immune Response (Blood T-Cells)

Marked increase during and after practice (Sun, et al., 1989)

Mood States (Self Reports)

Reduced tension, anxiety fatigue, depression and confusion (Jin 1989)

Improved mood states, reduction of anxiety states, (Jin 1992)

Reduced Anxiety (Chen & Sun 1997)

Other Self Report studies (Kutner, et al., 1997), (Blinde & McClung, 1997)

Reduced Falls

Reduced falls by up to 47%, reduced fear of falling
(Wolf, et al., 1993,and 1996, and 1997), (Henderson, 1998) ,
(Myers & Weiner, 1996), (Province, et al, 1995)

Preventing Falls (Carbary, 1991), (Smith, 1998), (Kessenich, 1998)

Respiratory

Increased efficiency in use of ventilatory volume (Brown, et al., 1989)

Enhanced ventilary capacity without cardiovascular stress (Brown et al, 1995)

Efficient use of ventilatory volume, efficient breathing patterns
(Schneider & Leung, 1991)

Medical Tribune News Service article discussing research led by Dr. Jin-Shin Lai of the department of physical medicine and rehabilitation at the National Taiwan University Hospital in Taipei.

Stress Hormones (Salivary Cortisol Levels)

Significant drop during and after practice (Jin 1989, Jin 1992)

Weight Bearing Exercise

No exacerbation in joint symptoms of individuals with RA (Kirstens,et al., 1991)

Alternative exercise therapy as part of Rehabilitation Program
(Kirstens, et al., 1991)

Increased joint flexibility (Sun, 1994 and 1996)

Other Anecdotal Benefits Referenced

Relaxation therapy for chronically ill (Jin 1992)

Therapeutic action for diminished range of motion (Kirstens, et al., 1991)

Reduced blood pressure, improved muscle relaxation and flexibility
(Chen & Sun 1997), (Sun 1994 and 1996)

And Dementia (Gibb, et al., 1997)

Other General Studies

Other studies (Kirsteins, 1998), (La Forge, 1997),
(Lam, 1998), (Lutz, 1996)

The smoking thread shows that someone was able to quit smoking simply through acupuncture treatment. (unfortunately
forum is screwy so not able to retrieve
the name. I'll update asa it works)

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6287

Taiji was developed greatly in Wudang mountains by the Taoist. As the abbots and nuns are searching for eternal life (immortality), they believe that chi and taiji are part of the elixir.

From:
http://www.artic.edu/taoism/glossary.php

immortals (n, pl) in Taoism, individuals who have achieved eternal life through perfect realization of the Tao. One may become immortal through meditation or Inner Visualization, physical training and breathing techniques, the ingestion of elixirs, or moral behavior. Taoists believe that immortals dwell in the heavens, in caverns, on mountains, and in other magical paradises.

Enjoy and spread the chi, dude

LilBunnyRabbit

13-Nov-2003, 03:07 PM

How you explain the universe is up to you, though I'll wait until I see a single piece of evidence for it before switching. Until that time I'll stand by the theory I've seen tested time and again.

Once a person has built up enough chi, they may be able to on contact transfer the chi to heal and destroy the other person.

This is something that I want to see. Many people have offered, and tried, to demonstrate it to me, as well as at martial arts conventions and similar events. So far none have suceeded. Guess I'm chi-repellant.

For instance acupuncture and acupressure is used to heal many debilitating ailments (mental and physical). The practioners using direct skin to skin contact or needles to transfer their own chi stimulate the stagnent chi of the patient.

Debatable, I prefer to stand by the psychosomatic effect theory for this until it works on a sceptic. It certainly failed miserably on me.

On the other hand, transfer enough chi on contact at points such acupuncture points, can kill. For instance Dim Mak strikes to the chest can cause commotio cordis (cardiac concussion).

A correctly timed, judged, and placed blow to the rib cage can quite easily put someone into cardiac arrest, whether or not you're using chi. Its one of the ways that medics sometimes try to use when they've not got paddles handy to deal with someone who's suffering from a heart attack.

Chi, afaik, cannot be used as weapon beyond the immediate vicinity of the body. That is, beyond about striking range, say, .5 metres. Within very close proximity, it is possible to use chi disruption without contact to interrupt the natural flow of chi in your opponent's body.

Again, if this is possible, then why is it not taught more? You'd think a system that powerful and succesful would have spread throughout the world by now. Or at least be confirmed by evidence, other than purely anecdotal, and yet none of this has shown up. Once again, this is something that people have claimed that they are using on me, to no effect.

btw, be aware that some contortionists can rotate their head by 360 degrees.

Quite impressive, however neither an indication of chi, nor something that you train into. For something like that you need to be born with a skeleton deformed in ways that allow it.

As for the health effects of chi, you'll find the same with just about any gentle form of exercise, particularly those designed for the elderly.

The smoking thread shows that someone was able to quit smoking simply through acupuncture treatment.

Yes, and I know people who've quit smoking by just giving up smoking. Just because one person believes that acupuncture has given them the willpower to quite doesn't mean it has.

Taiji was developed greatly in Wudang mountains by the Taoist. As the abbots and nuns are searching for eternal life (immortality), they believe that chi and taiji are part of the elixir.

And if some of them have achieved it, where exactly are they?

zun

13-Nov-2003, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by ckdstudent
How you explain the universe is up to you, though I'll wait until I see a single piece of evidence for it before switching. Until that time I'll stand by the theory I've seen tested time and again.

Fine. Interesting that creationist scientist use the same argument.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

This is something that I want to see. Many people have offered, and tried, to demonstrate it to me, as well as at martial arts conventions and similar events. So far none have suceeded. Guess I'm chi-repellant.

Offered what? Did what? Which martial arts conventions? Where? When? Who? How? Why? What? Be specific.

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Debatable, I prefer to stand by the psychosomatic effect theory for this until it works on a sceptic. It certainly failed miserably on me.

Until it works on a sceptic? You may prefer to use psychosomatic effect theory, whereas many more qualified doctors, researchers, scientists, experts and organisations disagree. See previous post for links to sources.

btw, you've countered you're own point with Psychomatic effect theory.

I'm still waiting to know in detail your experiences. You've mentioned the chi experiences numerous times in past posts and here. How about more details??? I'd like to seriously debate chi in greater detail with you - however this is only possible if you fully relate your experiences of chi. Otherwise, stop hiding behind these said experiences.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

A correctly timed, judged, and placed blow to the rib cage can quite easily put someone into cardiac arrest, whether or not you're using chi. Its one of the ways that medics sometimes try to use when they've not got paddles handy to deal with someone who's suffering from a heart attack.

So let me get this straight. So medics sometimes use correctly time, judged and placed blows to the rib cage to put someone into a cardiac arrest when they've got no paddles handy ?????

*sigh* You getting your facts mixed up again. It's funny though.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Again, if this is possible, then why is it not taught more? You'd think a system that powerful and succesful would have spread throughout the world by now.

Have you forgotten that todays society is results driven? If results of a system are not producable instantly, society tends to looks else where. Chi, Taiji and dim mak takes too long for the average MA to use effectively.

The most valuable things in this society are also the the most difficult to obtain. Diamonds. Gold. They need to be earned. A miner will not easily grant access to his mine. Yet many a would be gold miner stops just short of discoverying gold.

Finally, Taiji is the most practised (and popular) martial arts in the world.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Once again, this is something that people have claimed that they are using on me, to no effect.

What are they doing exactly?

Originally posted by ckdstudent

As for the health effects of chi, you'll find the same with just about any gentle form of exercise, particularly those designed for the elderly.

Please provide verifiable references, sources where this is claimed. You've overlooked the research performed by scientists listed in my previous post.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

And if some of them have achieved it, where exactly are they?

Who said they had achieved it? They are still searching, however, I said they believe chi and taiji are part of the elixir of eternal life.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Yes, and I know people who've quit smoking by just giving up smoking. Just because one person believes that acupuncture has given them the willpower to quite doesn't mean it has.

Now you are providing purely anecdotal evidence. Who do you know who quit. How? When? Did you perform a clinical trial?

This not just willpower. It surpressed the cravings. Something science nor hypnotherapy is not currently able to fully perform. The effect is repeatable.

http://www.chclibrary.org/micromed/00036070.html

You've overlooked or not fully researched the evidence provided. As a scientist, you are supposed to look at the entire evidence and remain unbiased until evidence conclusively proves otherwise.

Beyond your own experience, which you are to fully outline, you haven't disproven that chi doesn't exist.

James Randi and co, state that they can disprove empty force techniques, and this is the reason they do not believe in that.

If you were to say, "Chi doesn't work on me, but I'll remain open minded because science has not been able to prove or disprove the existence of chi." This imho would demonstrate an open minded, intelligent way of thinking.

All the health claims I've listed are backed up by references - many with clinical trials performed by highly qualified scientists, well respected organisations. As you look farther beyond your immediate set of experiences, you'll become truly aware that chi exists.

LilBunnyRabbit

13-Nov-2003, 08:24 PM

Fine. Interesting that creationist scientist use the same argument.

No creation theory has ever really been tested, since the effects of a creation can only be observed. Even if we could create our own pet universe it would not be 100% proof since it may not be the same as our universe. However, the theories that I am referring to deal with the present, and can be tested in the here and now.

btw, you've countered you're own point with Psychomatic effect theory.

Not really. There isn't really any fact, anything can be disproven, something you seem to have missed by saying that chi is a fact, despite the evidence ranged against it. When I refer to something as a fact, it is because it is something testable, that has been checked and verified time and time again. However that's not to say that tomorrow someone will work out a way to send information faster than the speed of light.

Have you forgotten that todays society is results driven? If results of a system are not producable instantly, society tends to looks else where. Chi, Taiji and dim mak takes too long for the average MA to use effectively.

Well, there goes every environmental program on the planet. Oh, and education. Medical research. Astrophysics research. A large portion of weapons research. In fact just about every kind of research does not produce instant results, and yet people devote their whole lives to those.

As for dim mak, there are various threads on this board concerning the subject, you might want to check those.

So let me get this straight. So medics sometimes use correctly time, judged and placed blows to the rib cage to put someone into a cardiac arrest when they've got no paddles handy ?????

Out of. The shock to the heart interrupts the rhythm of pumping, effectively the same method as using the paddles in the first place. You are simply hoping that the new rhythm you shock the heart into will be the correct one. Advanced emergency first aid.

Who said they had achieved it? They are still searching, however, I said they believe chi and taiji are part of the elixir of eternal life.

If you had read through your own link, you would have noticed that it did add at the end that they believe these immortals dwell in the heavens, on mountaintops, and in other isolated places. Seems like they conveniently put themselves out of people's way, don't you think?

This not just willpower. It surpressed the cravings. Something science nor hypnotherapy is not currently able to fully perform. The effect is repeatable.

Some people have claimed similar effects from hypnotherapy. And aromotherapy. And simply quitting. And accupressure. And massage. And taking up a new hobby. What's your point here?

The same applies to pain relief, and curing certain ailments. Research has actually suggested that belief aids health, especially when indulged.

If you were to say, "Chi doesn't work on me, but I'll remain open minded because science has not been able to prove or disprove the existence of chi." This imho would demonstrate an open minded, intelligent way of thinking.

Fine. Chi has not yet worked on me, nor have I seen any evidence of its existence or found any satisfactory theory for how it works. When I find evidence, or it works on me, I will believe it. When a satisfactory theory is developed for it, then I will do my own research until I am satisfied with the conclusion.

All the health claims I've listed are backed up by references - many with clinical trials performed by highly qualified scientists, well respected organisations. As you look farther beyond your immediate set of experiences, you'll become truly aware that chi exists.

Firstly I said that the health claims were genuine, and did not in fact disagree with them in any way other than to say that just about any gentle exercise has similar effects. Exercise makes you healthier. Wow, breaking news. Taiji is exercise. Stunner.

Secondly, if you are referring to the studies by Dr Khronos, I hesitate to call someone who sells audio tapes as effectively 'bottled chi' a respected scientist.

zun

15-Nov-2003, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by ckdstudent

No creation theory has ever really been tested, since the effects of a creation can only be observed. Even if we could create our own pet universe it would not be 100% proof since it may not be the same as our universe. However, the theories that I am referring to deal with the present, and can be tested in the here and now.

You've gone slightly off-topic.

The argument that creation-scientist use is they will wait until they see a single piece of evidence for [evolution] before switching. Until that time [they'll] stand by the theory [they]'ve seen tested time and again.

The evidence is there, they just obstinately refuse to believe it.

Just presenting that this is the same argument that creation-scientist and yourself are using.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Not really. There isn't really any fact, anything can be disproven, something you seem to have missed by saying that chi is a fact, despite the evidence ranged against it. When I refer to something as a fact, it is because it is something testable, that has been checked and verified time and time again. However that's not to say that tomorrow someone will work out a way to send information faster than the speed of light.

Firstly, Chi hasn't been disproven. If there as much evidence ranged against it as you claim - where is it? Despite my countless requests to present your references and sources, all you've presented is your opinions, having looked/seems arguments, false assumptions, conjectures and sweeping generalisations. Where is the evidence?

Secondly, psychosomatic effect theory is a just theory. Just as "nothing can travel faster than light" theory. It's a scientific theory not fact. For example, it was until relatively recently when science theorised that the atom was the smallest object. Again, science had to alter their theories.

Thirdly, whereas certain facts may hold true generally. At certain levels, those observable and testable facts may no longer hold true. For instance, behavior of the sub-atomic particles cannot be fully described by Netwon's Laws. Just because you refer to something as fact, it does not mean that it holds true all the time.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Well, there goes every environmental program on the planet. Oh, and education. Medical research. Astrophysics research. A large portion of weapons research. In fact just about every kind of research does not produce instant results, and yet people devote their whole lives to those.

As a percentage of the population, how many do you think are doing the above kinds of research? How many study astrophysics? Advance medical research? etc.

Furthermore, there are billions of dollars available to these individuals and organisations. For instance, in astrophysics, there are organisations such as NASA, ESA, military, For medical, there health organisations, goverments, drugs companies. For education, many are forced to study by the government or otherwise would have dropped out!

Also, how many of these individuals research the above, purely for their own statisfaction - their own benefit? Most do it as part and parcel of their job.

MA doesn't have the same resources or investment, the same goals or the same selfish all-conquering-to-be-first desire anything like the above sciences. Unlike standard education, MA is not a requirement for life. The government does not force you to study MA until atleast adult age.

You must compare like with like. When you do, you'll find that more people individually study the secrets of chi and ima. However, many of these secrets, such as dim mak, can not be revealed until the advance techniques are mastered. In any MA, this takes a very long time. Furthermore, because not many are skilled in such techniques as dim mak, there are fewer available to teach.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

As for dim mak, there are various threads on this board concerning the subject, you might want to check those.

Thanks for the pointer. However, do you actually follow any of own pointers? If you had, you would have noticed, that I have already participated.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

If you had read through your own link, you would have noticed that it did add at the end that they believe these immortals dwell in the heavens, on mountaintops, and in other isolated places. Seems like they conveniently put themselves out of people's way, don't you think?

Gawd. Can't believe you've used seems as the basis of your argument!!

Christian monks seek solace in the same way. In pursuit of one own's own goals, ambitions and desires, one seeks to minimise distractions.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Some people have claimed similar effects from hypnotherapy. And aromotherapy. And simply quitting. And accupressure. And massage. And taking up a new hobby. What's your point here?

Ultimately same goal/effect. Different method. For instance, hypnotherapy removes the reason - the basis behind the habit, such as stress-relife, and not the cravings. Without the basis, the habit gradually dissapears. Though the cravings remain, without the basis, are easier to physically and mentally overcome.

Accupuncture and accupressure both directly suppress the nicotine cravings.

You are aware, are you not, that you are making anecdotal claims in fields that is, and I quote, Not really your field.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

The same applies to pain relief, and curing certain ailments. Research has actually suggested that belief aids health, especially when indulged.

What research? Where? Sources dude! Yes, the placebo effect is amazing. I presume placebo doesn't work on you. Do you believe in it? Or perhaps you do - otherwise, you wouldn't make the above claim. How does science explain the placebo effect?

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Chi has not yet worked on me,

Not that you are aware of. When you fully and independently re-examine the evidence, you'll find that chi has worked on you. As you look carefully around you, you'll be automatically aware that chi works with you everyday.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

nor have I seen any evidence of its existence or found any satisfactory theory for how it works. When I find evidence, or it works on me, I will believe it. When a satisfactory theory is developed for it, then I will do my own research until I am satisfied with the conclusion.

LOL! Good that you've agreed to move from a heavily opposed viewpoint against chi to now a neutral stance.

Like most things in science, it possible to discuss theory ad nasuam. However, experiments and demonstrations are the foundation of science. Therefore if you are truly interested in discovering chi, I suggest you actively seek out a highly respected teacher in the fields internal Martial Arts.

There are many highly respected teachers and I'm sure many here will kindly suggest someone should you ask nicely.

In this respect, may I suggest you actively seek out Erle Montaigue. As he's recently moved back to the UK, he should be available either at a workshop in Wales or a training seminar not too far from Surrey. Ask for a demonstration of chi disruption or even a dim mak strike! :D

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Firstly I said that the health claims were genuine, and did not in fact disagree with them in any way other than to say that just about any gentle exercise has similar effects. Exercise makes you healthier. Wow, breaking news. Taiji is exercise. Stunner.

Bzzt. Nil point.

Another sweeping generalisation. Exercises are not all the same.

There are cerebal exercises (maths puzzles, crosswords, mensa tests), military exercises, etc. which is the not the same as physical exercise as you purport, nor solely do they provide same health benefits.

Each exercise improves upon a particular feature. For instance - military exercises is designed to improve field combat.

In the same way, not all exercises are the same! Taiji and chi gung exercises are designed to improve chi.

As you agree that the health claims made by the reputable papers are genuine, you'll be naturally aware that the papers find that benefits are particularly attributed to chi generated by taiji. In some instances, the patients were not able to perform any exercises, gentle or otherwise, previously.

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Secondly, if you are referring to the studies by Dr Khronos, I hesitate to call someone who sells audio tapes as effectively 'bottled chi' a respected scientist.

No problem. There are plenty of other scientist/organisations who I'm sure you will agree are independent, highly qualified and well respected - and have nothing to sell.

LilBunnyRabbit

16-Nov-2003, 12:45 AM

You've gone slightly off-topic.

You're the one who brought it up.

Despite my countless requests to present your references and sources, all you've presented is your opinions, having looked/seems arguments, false assumptions, conjectures and sweeping generalisations. Where is the evidence?

Firstly, I have actually presented my sources, it just looks like you can't be bothered to work through and read any of them or learn any actual science, so there's little point me going into more detail on it. As for the false assumptions, all of my assumptions are based either on personal experience, or evidence. What're yours based on? The evidence is all around you, just learn a little of the scientific method.

I note that all of your sources are either simply statements that taiji aids health, which I don't dispute at all. Yes, taiji aids health. So does yoga. And so does aerobics. Or some sort of 'weird science' such as writing chi into audio tapes, which you haven't actually addressed at all. Please stop ignoring my questions in favour of simply saying 'no, you're wrong' and actually give me a reason that I am wrong.

Gawd. Can't believe you've used seems as the basis of your argument!!

Try rereading it and actually spotting the sarcasm. There was no argument there other than that by definition these monks with magical powers are putting themselves out of reach of the rest of humanity, conveniently avoiding anyone wanting to check if their skills are genuine or rumour.

Thirdly, whereas certain facts may hold true generally. At certain levels, those observable and testable facts may no longer hold true. For instance, behavior of the sub-atomic particles cannot be fully described by Netwon's Laws.

Firstly, Newton's Laws are approximations. Secondly, they still apply on the subatomic level but due to the near-infinitessimal masses their effect is massively outweighed by the effect of nuclear forces.

MA doesn't have the same resources or investment, the same goals or the same selfish all-conquering-to-be-first desire anything like the above sciences. Unlike standard education, MA is not a requirement for life. The government does not force you to study MA until atleast adult age.

If chi showed any reliable evidence that it worked, then they would do. Bear in mind that British Rail have done research into dowsing, and many other companies have followed similar paths. So far the research has been at best inconclusive, and normally simply disproving the claims of the mystics involved.

Accupuncture and accupressure both directly suppress the nicotine cravings.

Never knew nicotine cravings were due to chi blockages. Well, we learn something new every day.

Christian monks seek solace in the same way. In pursuit of one own's own goals, ambitions and desires, one seeks to minimise distractions.

Christian monks don't claim to be immortal, or to be able to affect other people's souls from a distance, or even with a touch. The comparison is minimal.

Thanks for the pointer. However, do you actually follow any of own pointers? If you had, you would have noticed, that I have already participated.

Actually I was simply trying to point out that there are differing views of exactly what Dim Mak is. Many people do not think it involves channeling your spiritual energy into other people to kill or injure them, but think it comes down to the fact that dim mak points tend to be nerve clusters, or weak points in the body's makeup.

What research? Where? Sources dude! Yes, the placebo effect is amazing. I presume placebo doesn't work on you. Do you believe in it? Or perhaps you do - otherwise, you wouldn't make the above claim. How does science explain the placebo effect?

Yes, I believe that the placebo effect works for people who believe in it. Or at least that they believe it works. See where this is going? As for how science explains it, that depends on exactly which context you're asking in.

LOL! Good that you've agreed to move from a heavily opposed viewpoint against chi to now a neutral stance.

Where I actually stood from the beginning. My actual original argument was that electromagnetic force is a disastrous and misleading name for chi, since the two are not associated in any way. An argument which you provided 'evidence' against with Dr Khronos' miraculous paper on generating chi with an electromagnetic wave generator, and writing it to analogue audio tapes for later use for people, incidentally only detectable by humans and not by any objective method.

Ask for a demonstration of chi disruption or even a dim mak strike!

Would love to, the chi disruption at least. I have no desire for someone to tear out my throat or crush my windpipe with mystical magical pressure point techniques involving slamming hard blows into vulnerable parts of the body.

Another sweeping generalisation. Exercises are not all the same.

There's no need to be deliberately obtuse. Exercise in this context fairly blatantly refers to physical exercise. Try using common sense.

As you agree that the health claims made by the reputable papers are genuine, you'll be naturally aware that the papers find that benefits are particularly attributed to chi generated by taiji.

Actually I've yet to find any such papers. I've simply seen ones that basically boil down to exercise = good. Unless you're talking about newspapers, which firstly do not subject themselves to scientific peer review, and secondly are neither reputable nor reliable sources of scientific information.

No problem. There are plenty of other scientist/organisations who I'm sure you will agree are independent, highly qualified and well respected - and have nothing to sell.

Yep, there are plenty of mostly objective research organisations. Now show me one which endorses chi.

Andy Murray

16-Nov-2003, 12:51 AM

*Andy stabs knitting needles in both eyes, pulls out his finger and toe nails, then rubs the bloody ends with birdseye chillies.

*Make it stop :(

SoKKlab

16-Nov-2003, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
*Andy stabs knitting needles in both eyes, pulls out his finger and toe nails, then rubs the bloody ends with birdseye chillies.

*Make it stop :(

It won't stop. It's the power of their Chi-it's gone into overdrive.
It could take us all with it Captain, she cannae take it!

LilBunnyRabbit

16-Nov-2003, 10:55 AM

Dammit Andy! That counts as using one of your cards you know. :p

zun

16-Nov-2003, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by ckdstudent

Would love to, the chi disruption at least. I have no desire for someone to tear out my throat or crush my windpipe with mystical magical pressure point techniques involving slamming hard blows into vulnerable parts of the body.

For solely the sake of andy's eye-balls (assuming he hasn't deep fried them yet), I'll bring to this discussion of chi to a close.

Report back when you've met Erle.

Enjoy the chi disruption

thericepicker

05-Dec-2003, 09:57 AM

wtf are uguys talking about ki or chi?
well if ur talking about chi it can be felt on ur diantian which is made by making a triangle with ur fingers from ur bellie button its like a flow of energy

zun

05-Dec-2003, 10:15 AM

Have you read the entire thread?

Syd

05-Dec-2003, 10:20 AM

Oh dear... I'm having a Yoda moment. Y'know the one where Luke can't lift the X-wing out of the swamp cause he doesn't really believe? And Yoda just shakes his head in disgust? ;)

zun

05-Dec-2003, 10:33 AM

LOL!

Is that Ki, the force or wires? :p

Shade

05-Dec-2003, 02:13 PM

I have to say that it really amazes me that there are so many people in this world who have an attitude of "it doesn't exist because I haven't seen it, and I won't believe it exists until I do".

But there we are.

Syd

05-Dec-2003, 02:47 PM

I think the issue is that people who have no personal experience of a phenomena or energy simply have no point of reference.

There are things in this world that can't be seen or touched and yet we know they exist, so why should subtle energy and the human biomagnetic field be any different? Infact the human biomagnetic field can be measured and proven and this is an intimate of Qi.

I experience Qi every day I do my forms and Qigong. I actually do my Taiji forms and get Qi circulation without doing my standing qigong first which is proof that your Taijiquan is where it is supposed to be at. Qi circulates around the body at about the same speed as blood flows, this is why it is important in the internal arts to practice forms slowly!

People who do fast high speed forms seldom experience Qi flow because Qi is blocked by too much yang energy. Another reason why those semi internal schools have to perform seperate forms of seated meditation. Taijiquan is a martia artl that facilitates meditation and synergizes combat simultaneously; they don't call it the supreme ultimate for nothing.

At the end of the day people are sitting on what they claim doesn't exist as it's in them already, without it they would keel over and take a dirt nap; they just don't know how to harness it. ;)

To quote my main man Lao Tzu baby...

"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name"

DIG? ;)

KenpoDavid

05-Dec-2003, 03:40 PM

Chi is real. Just ask Justin Timberlake.

http://www.supermarketguru.com/page.cfm/4374

RubyMoon

05-Dec-2003, 04:22 PM

You may walk through the forest not believing in the trees,
but only if you are careful not to walk into one.

hwardo

05-Dec-2003, 04:35 PM

I second Syd's assertion that some things need to be directly experienced and felt to be understood. Chi and its cultivation can be equated to many of our internal processes-- you cannot "feel" your endocrine system, but that does not mean that it isn't functioning. To get into an argument of the validity of chi cultivation is completely pointless-- if you are not willing to put in the work to experience it, cultivate it and have faith that one day you will be able to utilize it, there is nothing anyone can say to convince you otherwise.
"He who does not trust enough
Will not be trusted."
Lao tsu

Kwajman

05-Dec-2003, 05:12 PM

I think your negativity about life is something that will certainly hold your "ki" back from being utilized to its full capability... That is something that you can change. Saying that "people suck" only continues the negativity.

zun

05-Dec-2003, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Shade
I have to say that it really amazes me that there are so many people in this world who have an attitude of "it doesn't exist because I haven't seen it, and I won't believe it exists until I do".

But there we are.

For the purposes of devil's advocate, I'll bat for the other team - just temporarily, mind ;)

I personally think it's great we have a group of sceptics, namely scientist, who are more difficult to convince and question everything, providing ofcourse they are willing to actively research and experiment.

Our outlook on the world has changed progressively over the centuries. In many cases, what was once thought true and accepted as fact - is now known to be incorrect. Ptolemy, Gallileo, Newton and Einstein were very difficult to convince and without their staunch disbelief - the world nowadays would be very different place.

People experience behaviours that fathoms science everyday. Ghosts, God, Aliens, etc. For them it is very tangible and real experience. Should others believe them based on something someone else has experience but they have not?

I have often felt and experienced, and continue to feel Chi. It may be psychological effect (suggestion). It may be just be the body electric.

Let sceptics be sceptical. They may indeed provide the proof.

"Darkness within darkness. The gateway to all understanding. " - Lao Tzu

hwardo

05-Dec-2003, 08:52 PM

In terms of scientific evidence, here is a little food for thought:

Chi, in all of its manifestations is
a) Intimately linked with a methodical process of developing awareness of your internal processes.
b) Utilizing that awareness to have superior health, power, and connection with your body by being in direct control of the opening and closing of tissues, the pumping of synovial fluid, and the correct biomechanical allignment of the muscle.
In Western science, there has been a fair amount of evidence that using certain methods of bio-feedback training, it is fairly easy for a person to develop a high control over one's "automatic" systems-- sweating, blood pressure, and even body temperature.
Is it such a far logical leap to connect the dots and explain how a person may be able to develop a high control over their muscles for power?
On a more anecdotal note, anyone who has experienced a "jing" powered punch at close range believes in chi. Ouch.

Syd

06-Dec-2003, 12:18 AM

Well all I would say is that the same people who throw Qi out the window have just thrown 5000 years of Traditional Chinese Medicine out the window along with it... I guess they are in a better position after under a century to discern whether Qi exists or not... *L*

LilBunnyRabbit

06-Dec-2003, 12:28 AM

I guess they are in a better position after under a century to discern whether Qi exists or not... *L*

Having actually tested it, possibly.

hwardo

06-Dec-2003, 12:42 AM

Tested it with what? A chi-o-meter? It is no secret that Western science's most significant flaw is its inability to account for the mind and intention. It is like trying to measure liquid on a scale without a container. Chi can and has been experienced by hundreds of millions of people, but it lies in the realm of inner experience.
Put another way, there certainly is no way to scientifically verify that we have thoughts. Does that mean that they don't exist?
Or how about this... imagine chomping down on a big lemon. Did your mouth water? If it did, you are a scientific anomoly-- you just manifested, out of thin air, a physiological reaction to something that doesn't exist. Science has no way to adequately explain that, but surely no one questions the existence of that. Why not? It is an internal experience. We have all kinds of them, and a person's experience of chi is another of the same ilk.
Chi, like thought, is open to anyone who is willing to put in the work to cultivate it.

47Ronin

06-Dec-2003, 02:31 AM

Cha cha cha CHIA!

I lost the Ki to my house, I should make a new one.

(haha, to lighten the thread up with some extremeley crapped jokes):D

Syd

06-Dec-2003, 02:34 AM

Having actually tested it, possibly.

Biomagnetically yes they mave have, but Qi doesn't operate within the paradigm of base scientific study, such as... "see the Qi in the jar, now we'll add Yi or intention and see what happens children!"

Your limited paradigms are the very thing which prevent you from experiencing the miraculous; you have created your own obstacle and draw on it as proof that something doesn't exist. This is hardly objective scientific thinking but more akin to stagnant skepticism dressed up as plausable denial.

Your invested in skepticism so anything anybody say's won't make an ounce of difference. The difference between you and thousands of others is that *they* at the very least have experienced Qi and you haven't. I would say the burden is on the skeptic to prove it ain't so and given you have no idea where to look for it I think this renders you and your argument superfluous.

I'm off to 3 circle...;)

RubyMoon

06-Dec-2003, 03:22 AM

Are your thoughts real? Imagine you are sitting on the sofa watching your favorite Jackie Chan movie, when suddenly you decide you want a soda. You pick up the remote, hit "pause," stand up, walk to the refrigerator, open it and grab a nice refreshing Karma-Cola.

Congratulations, you have just accomplished magic. With only the power of your mind, you manifested an abstract desire into a concrete reality.

You can't prove your thoughts exist. Mental activity can be measured but only in an abstract, mathmatical way. To an impartial observer, your actions might appear to be random. After all, there was no stimulis, no outside influence to make you suddenly stand up and walk to the refrigerator. To anyone who has never experienced the thought of wanting a soda before, it may seem inconceivable that such a thought could really exist. Furthermore, the idea that your thought could actually manifest into the reality of having a soda might seem completely absurd.

If Chi is all in your head, does that mean it doesn't really exist? Hypothetically, even if it is one day proven to be entirely psychological, this would take nothing away from its power or reality.

What is real? Everything we experience as reality we do so because we think it is real. Your mind defines and shapes your universe. When your foot itches, it is because your brain receives a message it identifies as an "itch." Sometimes the message is sent by nerve endings from your foot to your brain, but other times the itch begins and ends in your mind alone. It doesn't matter where the impulse comes from, however...you still scratch your foot.

When you experience "Chi flow" it is because your brain tells you you are experiencing it. There is no questioning the physical sensation. Does it matter whether the sensation originates in the body or in the mind? I personally believe that the energy is real and tangible, but ultimately it doesn't matter. What matters is that it works.

Just as your thoughts manifest into action, Chi also manifests in various tangible ways. We feel it, we know its effects. There is nothing quite like it. Billions of people over thousands of years have felt this same sensation. We have all seen it in action, in one form or another, even if we did not think of it as Chi. We've all heard the stories of a frail mother lifting a car to save the life of her child.

Lack of scientific proof or first-hand experience does not necessarily mean a thing does not or can not exist. As much as science can explain, there is much more to the universe that it can't.

Have you ever loved somebody?

Prove it.

Capt Ann

06-Dec-2003, 06:03 AM

It is true that you cannot measure love, belief, faith, character, integrity, or dozens of other intangibles.....BUT you CAN see their result. I tend not to believe in chi, because everything that I have seen done or promoted as having been done by "chi" could easily be explained by something that I COULD measure/see/touch/understand.

It is a general rule in science not to introduce an unnecessary concept.

RubyMoon

06-Dec-2003, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by Capt Ann
I tend not to believe in chi, because everything that I have seen done or promoted as having been done by "chi" could easily be explained by something that I COULD measure/see/touch/understand. The exact same thing could be said of all those intangibles you mentioned. What results can you show me of love that cannot be explained by some far more reasonable, scientific means, i.e. animal instinct...hysteria...delusion...hormonal stimulus...insanity...etc.?

Does love exist? Does it have power? What do you think?

Having experienced love, I find the existence of love undeniable. Maybe it really is all in my head, but frankly I don't care. Scientifically dismissing love does not change what it means to me, nor does it diminish its power. I believe in it and that is enough. Furthermore, I know many others who claim to have experienced love. As they describe their experiences and feelings, I hear my own experiences and feelings being described back to me. This reinforces my belief in love. Shared experiences may not constitute scientific proof, but they are difficult to ignore.

Now replace the word "love" with the word "chi" in the above paragraph and re-read it. Interesting, no?

Sub zero

06-Dec-2003, 07:11 AM

As i have said before chi i snot intangable ( or i don't believe it to be).I simply bvelieve thta this energy is maybe up of electrical, thermal and kenetic elements (all coming together at the right time) along with alignment of areas in the boddy to maxamise muscle and everything else.

zun

06-Dec-2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by hwardo

In Western science, there has been a fair amount of evidence that using certain methods of bio-feedback training, it is fairly easy for a person to develop a high control over one's "automatic" systems-- sweating, blood pressure, and even body temperature.

I'd say this is conciously learning to control one's subconcious motor functions. For example, the blinking happens subconciously - however when we concentrate we can control the blink rate.

In rapport, subconciously each person mirrors the other person. I've felt the other persons energy because in this case, we're both highly attuned to each other.

zun

06-Dec-2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by RubyMoon
Does love exist? Does it have power? What do you think?

Let me add more fuel to the fire:

Love is a chemically induced attraction.

zun

06-Dec-2003, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Sub zero
As i have said before chi i snot intangable ( or i don't believe it to be).I simply bvelieve thta this energy is maybe up of electrical, thermal and kenetic elements (all coming together at the right time) along with alignment of areas in the boddy to maxamise muscle and everything else.

That's okay. If you choose not to believe Chi.

Syd

06-Dec-2003, 09:16 AM

I tend not to believe in chi, because everything that I have seen done or promoted as having been done by "chi" could easily be explained by something that I COULD measure/see/touch/understand.

By this logic we could also say that a coconut that crossed the ocean and wound up on some island shore thousands of miles of way, could have done so by way of ship. However, the fact that it did so by itself is discounted because it's not familiar territory so we'll go with the ship theory instead?

This is the same as saying, because I don't understand or did not personally witness a coconut drop off a tree, roll down to shore and then float across 1000 miles of ocean; I don't believe it because a ship, with which I am more familiar, could have transported it instead.

I don't get the logic here....

Shade

06-Dec-2003, 09:55 AM

Zun, just going back to your devil's advocate post (I like playing him too sometimes.....don't we all :D ).

Having re-read this thread and your post, I agree that it is good to have people who question the existance or validity of x and y, as I beleive you are correct in asserting the theory that this is how man and society progress scientifically, mentally, emotionally and even spiritually.

There are many things that I often question myself, so as to build a greater understanding and to learn.

But for me the key is to maintain an open mind on matters, especially those of which I have no real experience of.

What I was getting at with my post was that I am frankly saddened that there are people in this world who portray a closed mind to things that they have not personally experienced. I find this a shame. Thats all.

Shade

06-Dec-2003, 10:03 AM

Now if I want to play Devil's Advocate I could say something like i've been practising CKD for x weeks but I haven't seen it used effectively to defend a real attack, therefore it must be impossible to defend using CKD as I haven't seen it and don't believe it.

(I don't actually believe this is the case, but just trying to put a point across. I haven't personally seen an effective defence against an attack using CKD, but I have an open enough mind to believe that it is a distinct possibility).

If I went to a Tai Chi class for a few weeks, or even a few months, I wouldn't expect to experience some earth moving chi phenomenon, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Same as not seeing a successful CKD defence doesn't mean it can't happen.

LilBunnyRabbit

06-Dec-2003, 10:50 AM

Biomagnetically yes they mave have, but Qi doesn't operate within the paradigm of base scientific study, such as... "see the Qi in the jar, now we'll add Yi or intention and see what happens children!"

Ah, of course. Chi is outside the realms of science, that explains it all. It doesn't fit with any experiments done to try and detect or test it, and has never been succesfully demonstrated under scientific conditions, therefore science must be wrong, since chi obviously exists.

What I was getting at with my post was that I am frankly saddened that there are people in this world who portray a closed mind to things that they have not personally experienced. I find this a shame. Thats all.

If it was just that I had never come across anything supposed to be chi, then I wouldn't be fussed about believing in it. However, many people have said they would demonstrate chi to me or on me, including alternative therapy clinics. So far none of it has had any effect whatsoever. That is why I don't believe in chi.

Now if I want to play Devil's Advocate I could say something like i've been practising CKD for x weeks but I haven't seen it used effectively to defend a real attack, therefore it must be impossible to defend using CKD as I haven't seen it and don't believe it.

However, you would have seen it effective defend against something approximating a real attack. I've never seen chi work in any situation, real or practice.

Having experienced love, I find the existence of love undeniable. Maybe it really is all in my head, but frankly I don't care. Scientifically dismissing love does not change what it means to me, nor does it diminish its power.

No one has dismissed love, in fact its been explained as the physical manifestation of a form of obsessive compulsive disorder, the initial burst usually lasting about six months before the derangement is recovered from. Knowing what it is and trying to find out more about it does not diminish its power, though I'd still like to point out that chi has *never* been demonstrated under respectable scientific conditions.

I'd also like to add that no one has claimed that they can heal or do anything 'magical' with love.

nzric

06-Dec-2003, 10:53 AM

I think chi is the force that impels normally sane people to write long, drawn out threads on MA forums!

I'm guilty of it myself but please, for all our sakes, stop the madness!!!

Shade

06-Dec-2003, 11:02 AM

nzric, fair point.

But before I go I must just say to LBR that actually no i havent seen CKD defend against anything approximating a real attack.

Without wishing to be rude, drills etc in a MA class are not real attacks. They are just drills. All the drills I have seen so far have been one person attacks while one defends, then swap. To be anything near a real fight resemblance it would have to be both attack and defend simultaneously which is sparring, which of course we dont do.

If I go to a pub tonight and got attacked by someone, they aren't going to throw a punch, wait for me to block it and return a punch whilst staying stood still in front of me (well some might but they would be idiots).

More than likely they would throw a punch, which I may block, and then when I throw a return punch, i find that not only have they moved from the position they were in when they threw the first punch but they have thrown a second punch also (hey that wasn't in my drill in class....play fair now). But i'm just thinking back to when i had my last fight, I aprreciate that every fight is different etc.

RubyMoon

06-Dec-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by LilBunnyRabbit
No one has dismissed love, in fact its been explained as the physical manifestation of a form of obsessive compulsive disorder... Prove it.

Syd

06-Dec-2003, 12:12 PM

Ah, of course. Chi is outside the realms of science, that explains it all. It doesn't fit with any experiments done to try and detect or test it, and has never been succesfully demonstrated under scientific conditions, therefore science must be wrong, since chi obviously exists.

No Science isn't wrong, it's just that it hasn't developed an adequate means of measuring or detecting Qi yet. But this does not mean Qi doesn't exist, it only means Science cannot validate it within a scientific paradigm. Luckily Scientific paradigms are not the be all and end all of reality, at this point I'll call on Quantum physics as my case in point!

Aum...

zun

06-Dec-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by Shade
Now if I want to play Devil's Advocate

Oi! Shade! NO!

I'm the only one allowed to play devil's advocate! :)

zun

06-Dec-2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by nzric
I think chi is the force that impels normally sane people to write long, drawn out threads on MA forums!

I'm guilty of it myself but please, for all our sakes, stop the madness!!!

Guilty as charged, m'honour!

It's the chi that did it. The physical manifestation of a form of obsessive compulsive disorder... aka love - I did it for love!

As I read somewhere: Chi - words fail.

Guys go out there enjoy your MA. And, if you haven't already, hopefully you'll one day come across Chi/Energy/Ki/Prana/kamae/Mana/Life Force etc

Live long and prosper :)

Sub zero

06-Dec-2003, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by zun
That's okay. If you choose not to believe Chi.

is one of your definitions of chi is that it could NEVER be explained in lab conditions by science no matter how far it advances from it's curent (in my view) to clinaclly minded state?

If so why?

And if not then i don't see how we disagree.

zun

07-Dec-2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Sub zero
is one of your definitions of chi is that it could NEVER be explained in lab conditions by science no matter how far it advances from it's curent (in my view) to clinaclly minded state?

If so why?

And if not then i don't see how we disagree.

Not sure exactly what you're asking, old fruity.

I am assume you're asking: Will chi ever be explained by scientific experimentation (in clinical trials)?

In the future, I believe the views of eastern science and the modern science will agree with regards to Chi.

It's a matter of time, patients and energy :)

Tatsuma

07-Dec-2003, 02:47 PM

here's a repost of my "ki believers and disbelievers reunited" in case someone missed it :)

I felt the need to post it after seeing both believers and disbelievers talk about it...

A Modern Definition of Qi
by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

It is important that you know about the progress that has been made by modern science in the study of Qi. This will keep you from getting stuck in the ancient concepts and level of understanding.

In ancient China, people had very little knowledge of electricity. They only knew from acupuncture that when a needle was inserted into the acupuncture cavities, some kind of energy other than heat was produced which often caused a shocking or a tickling sensation. It was not until the last few decades, when the Chinese people were more acquainted with electromagnetic science, that they began to recognize that this energy circulating in the body, which they called Qi, might be the same thing as what today's science calls "bioelectricity."

We must look at what modern Western science has discovered about bioelectromagnetic energy. Many bioelectricity related reports have been published, and frequently the results are closely related to what is experienced in Chinese Qigong training and medical science. For example, during the electrophysiological research of the 1960's, several investigators discovered that bones are piezoelectric; that is, when they are stressed, mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy in the form of electric current. This might explain one of the practices of Marrow Washing Qigong in which the stress on the bones and muscles is increased in certain ways to increase the Qi circulation.

It is understood now that the human body is constructed of many different electrically conductive materials, and that it forms a living electromagnetic field and circuit. Electromagnetic energy is continuously being generated in the human body through the biochemical reaction in food and air assimilation, and circulated by the electromotive forces (EMF) generated within the body.

In addition, you are constantly being affected by external electromagnetic fields such as that of the earth, or the electrical fields generated by clouds. When you practice Chinese medicine or Qigong, you need to be aware of these outside factors and take them into account.

Countless experiments have been conducted in China, Japan, and other countries to study how external magnetic or electrical fields can affect and adjust the body's Qi field. Many acupuncturists use magnets and electricity in their treatments. They attach a magnet to the skin over a cavity and leave it there for a period of time. The magnetic field gradually affects the Qi circulation in that channel. Alternatively, they insert needles into cavities and then run an electric current through the needle to reach the Qi channels directly. Although many researchers have claimed a degree of success in their experiments, none has been able to publish any detailed and convincing proof of the results, or give a good explanation of the theory behind the experiment. As with many other attempts to explain the How and Why of acupuncture, conclu?sive proof is elusive, and many unanswered questions remain. Of course, this theory is quite new, and it will take more study and research before it is verified and completely understood.

Much of the research on the body's electrical field relates to acupuncture. For example, Dr. Robert O. Becker, author of The Body Electric, reports that the conductivity of the skin is much higher at acupuncture cav?ities, and that it is now possible to locate them precisely by measuring the skin's conductivity. Many of these reports prove that the acupuncture which has been done in China for thousands of years is reasonable and scientific.

Although the link between the theory of "the Body Electric" and the Chinese theory of Qi is becoming more accepted and better proven, there are still many questions to be answered. For example, how can the mind lead Qi (electricity)? How actually does the mind generate an EMF (electromotive force) to circulate the electricity in the body? How is the human electromagnetic field affected by the multitude of other electric fields which surround us, such as radio wiring or electrical appliances? How can we readjust our electromagnetic fields and survive in outer space or on other planets where the magnetic field is completely different from the earth's? You can see that the future of Qigong and bioelectric science is a challenging and exciting one. It is about time that we started to use modern technology to understand the inner energy world which has been for the most part ignored by Western society.

This article is a direct translation of text from the book “Taijiquan, Classical Yang Style” by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. YMAA 1999

Tatsuma

07-Dec-2003, 02:49 PM

Talking about love

were you aware that it's been discovered to be a simple chemical reaction created by the brain and it's a simple mecanism to avoid over-reproduction of the species?

Kinda remove the glamorous air around love that way :p

same thing for Chi.... rip it off the "mystic" stuff related around it, and you simply discover it for what it is

Sub zero

07-Dec-2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by zun
Not sure exactly what you're asking, old fruity.

I am assume you're asking: Will chi ever be explained by scientific experimentation (in clinical trials)?

In the future, I believe the views of eastern science and the modern science will agree with regards to Chi.

It's a matter of time, patients and energy :)

hmmmmmm

Well i don't see what we disagree on then. And i don't understand ut previous statement "that's alright if u don't believe in chi"

Old fruity?
:confused:

zun

07-Dec-2003, 05:37 PM

Term of endearment :)

Capt Ann

08-Dec-2003, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Syd
I tend not to believe in chi, because everything that I have seen done or promoted as having been done by "chi" could easily be explained by something that I COULD measure/see/touch/understand.

By this logic we could also say that a coconut that crossed the ocean and wound up on some island shore thousands of miles of way, could have done so by way of ship. However, the fact that it did so by itself is discounted because it's not familiar territory so we'll go with the ship theory instead?

This is the same as saying, because I don't understand or did not personally witness a coconut drop off a tree, roll down to shore and then float across 1000 miles of ocean; I don't believe it because a ship, with which I am more familiar, could have transported it instead.

I don't get the logic here....

Let's try again: When you drop a rock from a tall building, it falls. This could easily be explained by gravity. I could even give you an equation [ F = mMg/r2 ] to explain why, calculate how long it would take to fall, and predict the location where it would land. On the other hand, I could theorize that there were really millions of little purple men with invisible rubber bands connected to all rocks, so that if you dropped a rock off a building, the invisible rubber band would send the rock sailing towards the earth, instead of hurtling into outerspace (as would happen if all the little purple men had invisible springs).

Now, we could spend the next fifty years (and thousands of newsgroup posts) debating which is *really* happening (i.e., gravity or purple men with invisible rubber bands). However, the gravity theory explains EVERY situation where objects fall on earth (whether they are thrown, tossed from a ship, or fall off a coconut tree). Therefore, theories of little purple men with invisible rubber bands offer no new information and have no extra value.

Same thing with chi/ki. Tell me ANY situation in MA where you think chi/ki was involved. I'll explain it with basic Newtonian physics. And the physics lets you predict what will happen and figure out how to improve what happens.

Punchline: Want to improve your MA practice? Forget 'chi/ki cultivation'. Think 1/2mv^^2.

RubyMoon

08-Dec-2003, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Capt Ann
Tell me ANY situation in MA where you think chi/ki was involved. How about the way it feels?

Capt Ann

08-Dec-2003, 06:17 AM

Originally posted by RubyMoon
How about the way it feels?

Does how it feels change the force with which you hit a target? Or block? Or how fast you move out of the way?

Syd

08-Dec-2003, 08:10 AM

Capt Ann,

Go on then, explain Qi/Ki/Ka with Newtonian physics... we're all curious. I don't need to provide you with any situation involving Qi since Newtonian physics seems to have the answer already to every given possibility

Would you care to explain the so-called power of placebo to cure terminal illness and disease? Would you care to apply Newtonian physics to the involvement of cancer patients practicing Qigong and curing their illness? I'm not even going to debate whether Qi or Ki or Ka or Prana exists because I have experience of it, directly. I don't need to prove it to you or anyone else. What you cannot do is disprove something which is outside your own personal experience.

Qi is experiential!

Newtonian physics exists within a limited paradigm, Qi exists within a Universal one. There is your problem and my meditation..

"The Tao that can be expressed, is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name"

Get it? ;)

Can't be done...

Shade

08-Dec-2003, 10:27 AM

It seems to be that whatever anyone says there will always be those people who believe in the existence and power of ki/qi/chi and those who don’t.

That’s fine. You don’t have to believe; no one is asking or forcing you to.

Your life can continue and so can everyone else’s.

This makes me think about those people who believe in the power of the Holy Spirit, and those who don’t. To those who believe, it is real to them and they can think of times when they have ‘felt’ it’s power. Try telling someone who doesn’t believe in it though and they get all high and mighty, just like people here are getting about chi.

Oh it doesn’t exist, it can’t exist, I have never experienced it so it’s a load of crap, physics can explain it all away etc.

I’m not saying it can but suppose physics could explain the power of the Holy Spirit (or the power or prayer to the many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in the world who believe in it). Does that make it any less real to them? And does it really matter to you?

If I say I can feel the power of Chi, then what difference does it make to your life? Why do you have to be so argumentative and arrogant and try to undermine my own beliefs?

Tatsuma

08-Dec-2003, 11:43 AM

Syd... what about the article I just posted? :)

Syd

08-Dec-2003, 11:55 AM

Tat,

I have many books by Dr Yang and Indeed I have his excellent volume dedicated to Qi cultivation and practice. The article, for those interested, is like but one page in a 300 odd page book with similar clarity of thought and philosophy. So if you dug the article I suggest you get the book.

Best, Syd ;)

Capt Ann

09-Dec-2003, 02:40 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Syd
Go on then, explain Qi/Ki/Ka with Newtonian physics... we're all curious. [QUOTE]
My point: it's superfluous. Unnecessary. Not needed. Do you want to discuss how to improve martial arts practice in this newsgroup? Then speak a language I understand. Saying "you must cultivate qi flow" does nothing for me. What muscle groups are used? Do certain excercises improve cardiovascular health? Flexibility? Coordination? Balance?

I don't need to provide you with any situation involving Qi since Newtonian physics seems to have the answer already to every given possibility

*Yawn* Newtonian physics is a model. You know that. It has its limits, as shown by Albert Einstein (physicist extrordinaire, and patron saint of all scientists with bad hair days). But for martial arts practice, YES, Newtonian physics determines the power of blocks, attacks, kicks, punches, and strikes. Think it doesn't? Please demonstrate using qi to a). defy gravity, or b). violate conservation of energy.

Would you care to explain the so-called power of placebo to cure terminal illness and disease? Would you care to apply Newtonian physics to the involvement of cancer patients practicing Qigong and curing their illness?
Placebos don't "cure" anything, especially terminal illness. And as for QiGong and cancer, some cancer patience recover. If you really want to prove that qi is a factor, it would be very easy to compare the incidence of cancer recovery in qigong practitioners to the incidence in the general public, or the incidence among all athletes. To the best of my knowledge (and web searching) this has not been done. {BTW, Similar tests HAVE been done on prayer, including one VERY interesting study of which I read, in which the patients did NOT know they were being prayed for. THAT'S amazing!}

I'm not even going to debate whether Qi or Ki or Ka or Prana exists because I have experience of it, directly. I don't need to prove it to you or anyone else. What you cannot do is disprove something which is outside your own personal experience.

Qi is experiential!

Problem is, your experience is not the same as the guy's at the next keyboard. Just from having read this thread (let alone the dozens of others I've followed to understand this thinking and terminology), it's obvious everyone on this list has a different working definition of ki, and each one is different than the historical definition of ki. Early writings on chi/ki attribute earthquakes and other phenomena to an imbalance in the "chi of the cosmos". Some on this list describe ki as the body's "internal elctromotive forces". Some describe it as a physical substance, some as a force, some as a mental state or spiritual force. Most see it as an internal phenomenon, many view it as something distributed through the universe. Now we have a group of people debating about whether something exists or not, and we can't even agree on what that "something" might be.

Newtonian physics exists within a limited paradigm, Qi exists within a Universal one. There is your problem and my meditation..

"The Tao that can be expressed, is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name"

Lao Tsu's quote above was actually a bit of tongue-in-cheek humility that I appreciate very much. It would be as if I said, "It is absolutely impossible to explain the Tao. No one has ever been able to explain it. No one ever will be able to explain it. Now I'm going to explain it for you."

I think we all could use a little more of that humility.

Syd

09-Dec-2003, 03:56 AM

I'll start with my own Yawn, it's a nice device to conceal emotional content, only don't try to kid a kidder. ;)

My point: it's superfluous. Unnecessary. Not needed. Do you want to discuss how to improve martial arts practice in this newsgroup? Then speak a language I understand.

No, your point was that you wanted me to provide you with examples of events where Qi was a prominent factor. Your challenge was that you could explain each event away using Newtonian Physics... nice try but the balls still firmly in your court!

If you can't understand the language of Qi then perhaps you might want to retire and return when you have come to grips with it. This is like going to China and saying your not going to bother trying to understand Chinese until they start speaking a language you can understand. Pretty arrogant really...

Saying "you must cultivate qi flow" does nothing for me.

You can lead a horse to water, the rest is up to you...

What muscle groups are used? Do certain excercises improve cardiovascular health? Flexibility? Coordination? Balance?

Your issue is that you are a victim of your own paradigm deficit. Try Quantum physics and concepts like Shroedinger Cat theory if you want to understand the nature of Qi in relation to Taijiquan and the Tao.

This is an internal art that exists within a cross paradigm reality... we are dealing with both and or, yes and no together, yin and yang. It is your interaction with the activities and events discussed which determine your experience and nothing else.

This is why each persons experience will be different because no two people are at the same level at the same time... Qi is experiential, as is the Tao. This is why it "cannot be expressed and cannot be named!" Not because Lao Tzu was being humerous and cracking Taoist gags for the philosophically challenged.

*Yawn* Newtonian physics is a model. You know that.

You brought it up and suggested it could explain any event claimed to involve Qi, away, as nothing more than gravity and higher order body mechanics.

It has its limits, as shown by Albert Einstein (physicist extrordinaire, and patron saint of all scientists with bad hair days).

Nice backtrack but we all recognize a retreating footprint when we see one. ;)

But for martial arts practice, YES, Newtonian physics determines the power of blocks, attacks, kicks, punches, and strikes.

Taijiquan isn't just a martial art, it is philosophy and a spiritual way of being, and healing. Again Huston, we have paradigm failure! *L*

Think it doesn't? Please demonstrate using qi to a). defy gravity, or b). violate conservation of energy.

Personally I don't harness Qi to defy gravity or violate conservation of energy. Infact I use Qi to firm my root, which is to enhance gravity and I use Qi to conserve energy, not violate the conservation of it. Again I think your conceptually redundant.

Placebos don't "cure" anything, especially terminal illness.

Errr, thats exactly my point. Glad you see that. So do you think Newtonian physics can explain somebody curing themselves by internal power alone?

And as for QiGong and cancer, some cancer patience recover.

Yes, thats exactly my point, again! *L* You have a knack for agreeing with me as this thing goes along.

If you really want to prove that qi is a factor, it would be very easy to compare the incidence of cancer recovery in qigong practitioners to the incidence in the general public

Well China is full of public hospitals that have multiple cases of people being healed by Qigong methods where traditional western medicine has failed. By all means go and check the records at the Temple of Heaven hospital in Shanghai! Or better yet check out a Bill Moyer special called Healing and the Mind, if you want that kind of evidence. They interview patients and doctors and conduct blind studies into the bargain.

,BTW, Similar tests HAVE been done on prayer, including one VERY interesting study of which I read, in which the patients did NOT know they were being prayed for. THAT'S amazing!

Indeed this is no surprise to me, preaching to the converted here.

Problem is, your experience is not the same as the guy's at the next keyboard.

I've dealt with this in the opening pragraphs.

Just from having read this thread (let alone the dozens of others I've followed to understand this thinking and terminology), it's obvious everyone on this list has a different working definition of ki, and each one is different than the historical definition of ki.

There's nothing wrong with that. Many people are using models already presented in literature by others rather than their own original thinking about these things. If you asked people to forget everything and discuss what Qi is, or feels like when they experience it, you would have the same answers from everybody.

Many people from different cultures call the same thing by a different name, this is not an indication of discrepency but only an indication of geographical, linguistic and cultural differences.

Early writings on chi/ki attribute earthquakes and other phenomena to an imbalance in the "chi of the cosmos".

There is yin and yang in the universe and in everything, I would concur.

Some on this list describe ki as the body's "internal elctromotive forces". Some describe it as a physical substance, some as a force, some as a mental state or spiritual force.

Ofcourse, trying to describe the un-nameable and that which is beyond expression is sure to produce a tabula rasa or varying answers. If you lose sight of the forest for tree's then you have missed the greater whole, have you not? :)

Most see it as an internal phenomenon, many view it as something distributed through the universe.

Shroedinger again... it is both! WUJI!

Now we have a group of people debating about whether something exists or not, and we can't even agree on what that "something" might be.

It is not a subject to be discussed in that way. It both exists and does not exists simultaneously, it is only your interaction with the Tao which determines your experience of it and the result you get... thats one of the secrets! ;)

Lao Tsu's quote above was actually a bit of tongue-in-cheek humility that I appreciate very much.

Glad you enjoyed it.

It would be as if I said, "It is absolutely impossible to explain the Tao. No one has ever been able to explain it. No one ever will be able to explain it. Now I'm going to explain it for you."

If this is valid for you then who can deny it, it's your own interpretation of the verse. Can Newtonian physics explain how you came to interpret it that way?

I think we all could use a little more of that humility.

I think we just agreed on something outside the realm of debate.

Best, Syd

47Ronin

09-Dec-2003, 04:32 AM

My belief, Ki exists. It just isnt that horse crap that alot of people think where it gives you supernatural fireballs.

To me it's that drive, the thing that makes you keep going and not be a lazy stoner unemployed and out of shape.

To me its the soul, whether you want to believe it or not.

Just like the Gatorade and Nike commercials :D

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 11:04 AM

Your issue is that you are a victim of your own paradigm deficit. Try Quantum physics and concepts like Shroedinger Cat theory if you want to understand the nature of Qi in relation to Taijiquan and the Tao.

Shroedinger's Cat was actually an example used to demonstrate that quantum physics does not apply on the macroscopic scale. Inside the box the cat is either alive or dead. If you're not using microscopic particles, quantum physics does not apply. That's why Shroedinger came up with the experiment in the first place, unfortunately its now been hijacked for every crackpot theory out there.

This is an internal art that exists within a cross paradigm reality... we are dealing with both and or, yes and no together, yin and yang. It is your interaction with the activities and events discussed which determine your experience and nothing else.

Care to explain this in a way that isn't self-contradictory nonsense?

Yes, thats exactly my point, again! *L* You have a knack for agreeing with me as this thing goes along.

Only if you're taking quotes out of context and misreading their meaning. Some cancer patients recover whether or not they do Qi Gong.

Shroedinger again... it is both! WUJI!

You don't know much about Shroedinger's theory it seems. Its important to remember that in the case of this supposed chi the box is open, the cat has been seen, so it is not both, it is simply one or the other.

It is not a subject to be discussed in that way. It both exists and does not exists simultaneously, it is only your interaction with the Tao which determines your experience of it and the result you get... thats one of the secrets!

So if you believe in it, then it exists, and if you don't then it doesn't? That'd explain why its never been successfully demonstrated to any skeptics. It also sounds like a definition of self-delusion.

I notice that while the argument against chi has offered a complete lack of proof of the existence of chi time and time again, I've not yet seen any actual physical evidence for the existence of chi. People have said that they have a tingly feeling in their hands, or a warm feeling inside. Well I get that sometimes too, mainly when I've been sitting on my leg for too long, or when I'm lying in front of the fire. On top of that neither of these, nor anything else that has been mentioned and agreed on by the chi brigade has actually been tested positive other than by other believers.

Syd

09-Dec-2003, 12:02 PM

Ok, here we go again...

Shroedinger's Cat was actually an example used to demonstrate that quantum physics does not apply on the macroscopic scale.

I think the Shroedinger theory was quite a bit more than that actually. But when I discuss this I am refering metaphoricaly to Qi, within the human body, much like the cat in the box. Qi is in the body just as the cat is within the box. Everything is energy in different states.

Inside the box the cat is either alive or dead.

Inside a human body the dantien is either being activated or it isn't. In Shroedingers theory it goes further than the Cat being either alive or dead in the box. The point is that it is the opening of the box, the individuals interaction with the event, which determines the result of the cats circumstance.

While the box remains closed the cat is both dead and/or alive. It is not until the box is opened by the subject that we find out which has occured. It is suggested that the person opening the box has a direct role to play in the outcome. I submit that this is same with Qi.

If you're not using microscopic particles, quantum physics does not apply. That's why Shroedinger came up with the experiment in the first place, unfortunately its now been hijacked for every crackpot theory out there.

The Tao is a perfect example of the cunnundrum presented as metaphor in Shroedingers theory. If you look at the Wuji, which is essentially the point where Yin and Yang, not Yin or Yang, combine and become a 3rd possibility, namely Wuji, then you begin to grasp the miraculous.

I subscribe to the view that the Tao, and Taiji represents a very basic universal principle which is borne out in the esoteric works of cultures the world over. They show the simple yet elegant numercial significance of an archetypical trinity.

Yin, Yang, Wuji
Father, Son, Holy Ghost
Two circles laid across one another give us the vesica pisces, the third elegant possbility!

There is more to Qi, Taiji and forms and whatnot than just what base physical reality might reveal to us. Taijiquan is literally a microcosmic working of esoteric significance whereby the body bypasses the limitations of 3 dimensional physics and the concept of macrocosm or microcosm. It literally bridges the gap by becoming the macrocosm IN miscrocosm!

We're looking at the body becoming a tool of sacred geometry through practical philisophy.

Care to explain this in a way that isn't self-contradictory nonsense?

I just did, but you might need to look beyond the limitation of one or the other thinking. Taiji is not just Yin or Yang, it is both. Taiji when it is both is actually Wuji, and when Taiji is understood as Wuji then it becomes the void which is not emptyness but rather a point beyond duality... it is oneness.

It is not contradictory at all, it is simply beyond limited 3 dimensional logic as it
operates within a 4th dimensional paradigm... it transcends the limitation of this or that and rather combines both to produce Wuji... the third option or reality.

Only if you're taking quotes out of context and misreading their meaning. Some cancer patients recover whether or not they do Qi Gong.

Well indeed some may well do that also. But we were not talking about those people, we were talking about people who cure themselves where application of internal will and qigong have been applied.

You don't know much about Shroedinger's theory it seems.

No, I think it's just that you don't know how to see abstract theory in relation to philosophy and hyper dimensional physics beyond the limitation of the subject matter.

Its important to remember that in the case of this supposed chi the box is open, the cat has been seen, so it is not both, it is simply one or the other.

I disagree. Each person interacts with the box on an individual level. The box cannot be generally open for everyone because the box is a personal item that is relevent only to the person opening it. it is indeed both until such a time as the person opening it decides the outsome for themselves. I suggest that each person unconsciously pre-determines the outcomes based on their personal disposition. Therefore until the box has been opened it is both!

So if you believe in it, then it exists, and if you don't then it doesn't? That'd explain why its never been successfully demonstrated to any skeptics. It also sounds like a definition of self-delusion.

Something like that yes. But while it's working for those that believe it, and know how to use it, whose to say the skeptics are not the delusional? Even if Qi did not have any direct effect in combat, the fact that people have a better quality of life, find inner peace and calm through it's practice, shows me a wisdom that skeptics will never be privy to.

I notice that while the argument against chi has offered a complete lack of proof of the existence of chi time and time again, I've not yet seen any actual physical evidence for the existence of chi.

Then you are at an impasse and again it is both... classical Wuji in action.

People have said that they have a tingly feeling in their hands, or a warm feeling inside. Well I get that sometimes too, mainly when I've been sitting on my leg for too long, or when I'm lying in front of the fire.

Yes indeed, but leaning on your leg too long does not bring thousands of people inner calm, well being and deep personal insight. There are many, many people who through the practice of Taijiquan have cured themselves of illness as a result of activation and balancing of the merdian pairs. Your using chalk to compare cheese.

On top of that neither of these, nor anything else that has been mentioned and agreed on by the chi brigade has actually been tested positive other than by other believers.

Like I said before, if you don't believe then you will not have any experience. Qi is something that must be cultivated, then circulated, harnessed and then directed. You can't just walk into it, flick a switch and expect things to happen. Taiji demands allot more than that of it's practitioners.

If you choose not to believe it? You have just opened your own personal Shroedingers box and got your result. Your cat is dead my friend...

Reality is for those who can't deal with roleplaying games.

"If you know how to turn the light of awareness around to look within, using the artificial to cultivate the real, then in a moment yin and yang will merge and combine, spontaneously and effortlessly. If you realize this, it is near at hand; if not it is far away. It is simply a matter of being willing to do it!" Liu I Ming 1700's Taoist philosopher...

Best, Syd

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 01:22 PM

I think the Shroedinger theory was quite a bit more than that actually. But when I discuss this I am refering metaphoricaly to Qi, within the human body, much like the cat in the box. Qi is in the body just as the cat is within the box. Everything is energy in different states.

Then don't use a scientific theory to try and explain something that's mere philosophy. I've had to actually study Shroedinger, both his wave equation and Shroedinger's cat, you can take my word for it that the reason he came up with the idea was to prove that the macroscopic did not work that way. He said as much himself.

Well indeed some may well do that also. But we were not talking about those people, we were talking about people who cure themselves where application of internal will and qigong have been applied.

Ah, got it now. So if they get better and happen to use alternative therapies then that means the therapy works, despite the fact that an equal proportion of people who do nothing also recover from cancer. Okay.

We're looking at the body becoming a tool of sacred geometry through practical philisophy.

Sorry, but you're starting to sound like a medieval alchemist.

No, I think it's just that you don't know how to see abstract theory in relation to philosophy and hyper dimensional physics beyond the limitation of the subject matter.

Ah, so its philosophy now and nothing to do with Shroedinger's cat. As for hyperdimensional physics, please stay away from the realm of science fiction.

Yes indeed, but leaning on your leg too long does not bring thousands of people inner calm, well being and deep personal insight. There are many, many people who through the practice of Taijiquan have cured themselves of illness as a result of activation and balancing of the merdian pairs. Your using chalk to compare cheese.

People find the same calm and well being through religion, through following a cause, through simply living their lives and being content. As for people curing themselves, give me one example where someone has performed an obvious cure of themselves. By that I mean one where the person did not naturally recover, and was no using any other form of therapy at the time.

"If you know how to turn the light of awareness around to look within, using the artificial to cultivate the real, then in a moment yin and yang will merge and combine, spontaneously and effortlessly. If you realize this, it is near at hand; if not it is far away. It is simply a matter of being willing to do it!" Liu I Ming 1700's Taoist philosopher...

You've been living in a dream world Neo, this is the world as it is today.

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 01:27 PM

LBR i just can't get my head around why you have to keep having a pop at people who believe in something you don't.

Is it some way of letting off steam after Andrew Green chewed your arse over the effectiveness (or not) of CKD?

You seem to take enjoyment out of arguing for the sake of it. Just my personal opinion of course, you understand.

Capt Ann

09-Dec-2003, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Syd

Re: Newtonian physics.......

You brought it up and suggested it could explain any event claimed to involve Qi, away, as nothing more than gravity and higher order body mechanics.

I still say it can, Bro! An admittedly imperfect model can explain every physical effect of "ki" and has the advantage of being predictable, explainable, and optimizable. (i.e., if you want to improve MA practice, then gravity and body mechanics ARE the place to look.)

Originally posted by Shade
If I say I can feel the power of Chi, then what difference does it make to your life? Why do you have to be so argumentative and arrogant and try to undermine my own beliefs?

Shade, I would ask you to re-read all posts I have made to this thread. There's nothing arrogant, or even argumentative, in there {OK, maybe a little sarcasm now and then, but that's it. ;) }

You are right, what you believe about Ki doesn't affect my life. But it does affect Spirit Reaper, and many more people like him. Please read the initial post that started this whole thread: S.R. was concerned that he couldn't "feel his ki". My whole point is he doesn't have to.....it doesn't matter, won't help his MA practice, won't even improve his "quality of life". And for him, and many others starting MA out there, I say , "Don't get hung up on ki. Practice your basics, develope your abs, work on balance, work on speed, use lower body mechanics even on punches and upper body techniques to increase power", etc. etc.

(Aside to Syd): BTW, as far as "proof" and "experience", in answer to S.R.'s original concern, I have proof that the physics aspects I just mentioned DO improve your MA practice. Ball's back in your court: provide proof to S.R. that "ki cultivation" will help him.

......and try to undermine my own beliefs?
You have the right to believe whatever you want. In fact, if you wanted to believe that the "Kata Fairy" would fly over your pillow at night and sprinkle you with sparring powder the night before test day so you could get your belt promotion without practicing, then I would defend with my dying breath your right to hold such a belief.....However.....I would NOT feel obligated to support your view, or to sit quietly while you told this to a new MA. :D

Now, before you all shoot fiery darts at me (or shoot something else :woo: ), let me say that I am NOT putting your view on ki in the same category as the "Kata Fairy". But I hope you get my point. ;)

Peace,

Ann

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 01:34 PM

But your happy to tell more experienced martial artists that something they profoundly believe in is a load of crap.

Makes real sense.

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 01:44 PM

You seem to take enjoyment out of arguing for the sake of it. Just my personal opinion of course, you understand.

I would actually love to believe in Chi. I would love for someone to disprove what I'm saying, and show me that this magical thing does actually exist. I have sought it out as much as I can, and yet neve seen any evidence other than myth.

If a scam goes round the internet, other people try to tell the people who fall for it that they're being scammed. If its genuine then they try to find out. Unfortunately I've not seen any evidence that its genuine.

Capt Ann

09-Dec-2003, 01:46 PM

You seem intelligent enough to understand that "experience" is no guarantee of being right. Sorry you feel I'm telling you your belief is full of crap. Personally, I think you're being too touchy about this issue, and that you're taking it as a personal assault anytime someone says they don't believe in ki. I'm not quite so touchy (maybe because I'm used to people telling me they think I'm full of crap)

Anyway, I do think you need to watch assuming people disagree with you about "ki" because they "haven't looked into it", or because they are close-minded, arrogant, ignorant, or any of the other things I've seen you accuse folks of in this thread. I disagree with all the "stock" positions on "ki" for reasons scientific, philosphical, religious, and historical. That's a lot of ground, and a lot of reasons.

hwardo

09-Dec-2003, 01:56 PM

But don't you see that when you make the claim that it "won't help his MA practice... won't even help his quality of life" without any practical experience, you may turn someone away from an amazingly valuable process. Further, When Li'l bunny calls it a scam because he or she hasn't been able to find it, it only points to a lack of knowledge on the subject.
Look: Chi can be cultivated. I have done it. Millions of people have done it. It does not give you mystical superpowers, no, but it absolutely can benefit your practice, and moreover, it has changed my life.
Science neither proves nor disproves chi, but to those who invoke science as an argument against it, you need to realize that science doesn't explain why we talk and make buildings either.
If you don't "agree" with chi cultivation, than by all means, don't let me try to convince you. But what possible grounds could you have to run around turning people new to the subject off from it?

Syd

09-Dec-2003, 01:57 PM

To Bunny & Cpt

I cannot open your eye's to the things you wish not to see. I've said everything I need to on this, I'd only be repeating and refining the same thing, be well.

Best to all, Syd ;)

Capt Ann

09-Dec-2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by hwardo
If you don't "agree" with chi cultivation, than by all means, don't let me try to convince you. But what possible grounds could you have to run around turning people new to the subject off from it?

Because I've seen it taught and used to the detriment of others (not neutrally, as in 'maybe-this-works-maybe-it-doesn't, but to their own hurt.) And if there are scientific reasons why it isn't needed in MA practice, then the "newbies" don't have to deal with the ill effects and extra bagage that often comes with it.

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 02:06 PM

Capt Ann,

indeed, one could say that lack of experience is no guarantee of being right, either. I think it fair to say that I am not happy about people inferring something that I believe in to be rubbish, and that it should just be dismissed. How would you feel about me saying your relighion should be dismissed? I presume you are a Christian. To the billions of Muslims in this world what you beleive in is total BS. Doesnt mean it is though does it.

LBR I am disturbed that you infer chi to be a scam. Isnt that like people saying CKD is a scam to make money (i am thinking about a certain Mr Koo here)? Also, forgive me if i choke on my water....you have sought it out as much as you can....i read on another thread somewhere that you went to Tai Chi for 1 month. Doesnt seem like much seeking to me.

Capt Ann

09-Dec-2003, 02:07 PM

Must go to work. Would love to stay here and argue some more (see previous post regarding occasional sarcasm), but I must go to TKD practice, then earn a living to pay for my Internet connection.

God's blessings to all.

Capt Ann

09-Dec-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Shade
Capt Ann,

How would you feel about me saying your relighion should be dismissed? I presume you are a Christian.

Shade, it's your right to accept or dismiss even those things I hold and believe most dearly. I will not think less of you, or hold you in contempt, and I will even assume that you have reasons for whatever belief/non-belief you have.

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 02:17 PM

Capt Ann,

no doubt you will be reading this later once you have returned from work.

I dont want to or even like arguing with you. It is serving absolutely no purpose other than to make anyone reading this thread think "why the f would i want to join this forum, they all take pops at each other".

I believe in chi. You and many others dont. Thats great.

You believe in certain things and many others dont. Thats great too.

As far as implying that it is wrong and perhaps even dangerous to introduce Spirit Reaper to something that he is obviously interested in (otherwise why ask the question in the first place) then I personally think that viewpoint is a bit stunted. No one is saying that he has to be shipped off to China for the next 10 years and live in a box on bread and water.

He could simply start like I am doing by reading some books about Tao and chinese philosophy.

No harm to be done by expanding his knowledge through these means surely. Otherwise what havoc have christian's being doing throughout the world for the last few decades tryignti get everyone to read the Bible?

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 02:31 PM

LBR I am disturbed that you infer chi to be a scam. Isnt that like people saying CKD is a scam to make money (i am thinking about a certain Mr Koo here)? Also, forgive me if i choke on my water....you have sought it out as much as you can....i read on another thread somewhere that you went to Tai Chi for 1 month. Doesnt seem like much seeking to me.

I can stand in front of you and show you how CKD works. I can work you through the principles and teach you. I can show you how the blocks block, how the attacks attack. I can teach you the drills. I can actually show you it in effect.

With chi, you seem to be saying that not only can it not be taught or demonstrated, it also makes no difference and has no use other than to make people feel more content. Personally I'm happy enough as I am, which means that for me Chi would be useless.

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 02:33 PM

Im not saying those things...that was Syd.

And if you are happy as you are, why say you have sought it out and would love to believe in it? This doesnt make any sense, and again leads me to believe that you are just a troll.

And i notice you didnt answer me from a few pages back when i said that I actually have not seen CKD in anything approaching an approximation of a real attack.

zun

09-Dec-2003, 03:06 PM

Shade,

I wouldn't get into a discussion with LilBunnyRabbit (or his alter ego ckdstudent) - you'll end round up in circles.

If he believes in it or doesn't, what does it matter to you or me? Nowt. Some things cannot yet be explained logically or scientifically.

Consider ourselves most fortunate - we are aware of Chi, we are aware of what it can do - and how we can harness it for our benefit and others.

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 03:07 PM

And if you are happy as you are, why say you have sought it out and would love to believe in it? This doesnt make any sense, and again leads me to believe that you are just a troll.

Just a troll? I'll let that slide I think. As for why I'd like to believe in it, its for the same reason that I'd love to believe in a religion, or miracle cures, or faith healing, or telekinesis, or magic. I'm human. If you can't understand that people want to believe in things, then there's no hope for you.

And i notice you didnt answer me from a few pages back when i said that I actually have not seen CKD in anything approaching an approximation of a real attack.

Which has what to do with teaching Choi? Besides which if you really want I can throw a Choi punch, or any other art's punch, at you and it will hurt unless you dodge or block. That means it is effective. Now then, depending on which version of chi you happen to believe, there has never been an instance where someone who did not believe in chi has been hit with it, or healed by it. You don't need to believe in someone's punch for it to hurt. You don't need to believe in a bandage for it to stop blood spurting. Those are actual, effective things. Now if you can tell me that even though I don't believe in chi it'll work on me, and actually show me it working, I will quite happily believe you.

As for CKD being in anything approaching a real fight, I will resist the urge to make the obvious comment. The reason I didn't answer you was because I really didn't see the point in your question other than trying to bait me. It's not going to work.

Consider ourselves most fortunate - we are aware of Chi, we are aware of what it can do - and how we can harness it for our benefit and others.

I'm aware that if I send $10 to each of the twenty people on a list, I'll receive over $1000000 in only a week! I can harness it for my benefit, and pass it on to others.

Now that's trolling.

zun

09-Dec-2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by LilBunnyRabbit
I'm aware that if I send $10 to each of the twenty people on a list, I'll receive over $1000000 in only a week! I can harness it for my benefit, and pass it on to others.

Now that's trolling.

Yeah! It's called CKD!

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 03:22 PM

Im not trying to bait you at all. It was a serious point. You made a comment that I would have seen CKD being used in an approximation of a real attack, and I haven't.

Just throwing a punch at me isnt an approximation of a real attack. If that is what you truly beileve, and if that is what CKD is all about, then I think I am learning the wrong art.

Please clear this point up for me as I have a grading on Sunday and value my £20.

Kwajman

09-Dec-2003, 03:26 PM

Hmmmmm, what happened to the ki thread...

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 03:30 PM

Yeah! It's called CKD!

Unnecessary, wrong thread, completely off topic, and deliberately offensive. If you want to whine about CKD, go to the CKD thread, and try to do it once you actually know something about the art.

Im not trying to bait you at all. It was a serious point. You made a comment that I would have seen CKD being used in an approximation of a real attack, and I haven't.

Actually I believe my comment was that you'd have been shown the attacks and blocks, taken through the various drills, and shown the effects of the techniques. Whereas with ki, you are simply expected to trust that its there and that you are in fact developing it. Since everyone seems to be saying that the only way to tell chi exists is to feel it, my main point was that I was trying to show that in fact its not much use if you can't teach it.

Plus, if you can't teach it, then these people running around charging money to teach chi are in fact no better than conmen. They may believe it, but if as you say they can't teach it, I don't see the difference.

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 03:44 PM

No what you actually said on page 8 of this thread was

However, you would have seen it effective defend against something approximating a real attack.

and no i haven't.

What should I have seen?

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 03:48 PM

What should I have seen?

A block against a punch or kick, thrown unexpectedly. Now you may not count that as a real attack, however you would have to concede that in a real attack people do throw punches, and sometimes kicks. You should also have seen infighting drills, which cover the most common violent attacks. Again, you may not count it as approximating a real attack, but you would have seen it, and hopefully should have seen that it works.

Now show me one example of chi working, even in practice, on a skeptic.

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 03:59 PM

Of course I concede that in a real attack people throw kicks and punches (unless its a head butting contest or something). What a ridiculous thing to say.

None of the drills I have seen in a CKD class have been anything like you would get in a real attack though. Just my opinion of course.

In what I would class as a real attack (having seen many in some of the biker pubs I used to frequent in the golden days of Bromley) the attacker never just throws 1 unexpected attack. They throw a chair, followed by a bottle, followed by one of their mates rugby tackling you to the floor, whilt the chair and bottle thrower does a dance on your skull.

Now unless I have one of thise shields from class in my pocket, what am I going to do?

Or what about the guy that doesnt just throw one punch, he throws one and keeps thowing them. And i block, but then its his turn to attack again, and i block again, but he throws another punch, or a kick, and im locked in a continuois circle of blocking his attacks?

In class, what i see is you attack me and i block for a couple fo minutes. Then change over. Sorry, but that doesnt happen in any real fight i have been in or witnessed.

As for an example of working chi, you will have to ask this of someone else. All I have said here is that I believe it exists. I havent said anywhere that I have seen it working. You must be confusing me with someone else.

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 04:06 PM

As for an example of working chi, you will have to ask this of someone else. All I have said here is that I believe it exists. I havent said anywhere that I have seen it working. You must be confusing me with someone else.

And this is what happens. Yes, chi must exist, I believe it, but wait, if you want proof just ask someone else, yeah...

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 04:08 PM

So go to Wales and see Erle Montaigue. He will show it to you.

You have such a poor atitude, i am so glad you aint in my class.

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 04:15 PM

So go to Wales and see Erle Montaigue. He will show it to you.

I would love to, but I'm kinda broke and can't travel to Wales. But hey, there must be more than one person in England who can demonstrate chi, mustn't there? I'm sure there's some up in London. Anyone who'd be happy to demonstrate chi to or on me, please raise your hand. As I've said, I would love to see it proven, and if I'm convinced I will quite happily come onto the board and retract everything that I've said before about it.

You have such a poor atitude, i am so glad you aint in my class.

A poor attitude and demanding proof are not the same thing. A judge is not considered to have a poor attitude when he lets someone go for lack of evidence, or convicts them because they have no alibi.

Syd

09-Dec-2003, 04:16 PM

Shade,

Im not saying those things...that was Syd.

I wasn't saying anything like that either. I wouldn't look to Bunny for a straight version of anything I did or didn't say.

By the way Bunny, if you think Hyper Dimensional Physics is the realm of science fiction or fantasy, why don't you go talk to Richard C Hoagland and people like Mark J Carlotto and the Nasa boys about Mars and planets such as Jupiter... I'll leave that one for you to research; just keep the little formula 19.5 degree's at the forefront of your mind and you can't go wrong. ;)

I'm not wasting anymore precious time on this... just don't expect me to sit back when I'm blatantly mis-quoted.

Oh and Bunny, if you want to see Qi disruption at work, you'll need to see a video by Erle Montaigue called Qi disruption volume 1. On it Erle goes through 4 seperate students and shows the effect of Qi disruption and it's application.

Syd,

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 04:17 PM

Ok go and see Paul Brecher in London . Look him up on google.

And yes i believe you have a very poor attitude, and just cannot stand having anyone question your high and mightyness.

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 04:17 PM

Apologies Syd.

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 04:24 PM

By the way Bunny, if you think Hyper Dimensional Physics is the realm of science fiction or fantasy, why don't you go talk to Richard C Hoagland and people like Mark J Carlotto and the Nasa boys about Mars and planets such as Jupiter... I'll leave that one for you to research; just keep the little formula 19.5 degree's at the forefront of your mind and you can't go wrong.

Ah yes, the face on mars and other such, and the all-powerful aliens that seeded our planet. Like I said. Science fiction.

http://members.aol.com/garypos2/Hoagland.html

And yes i believe you have a very poor attitude, and just cannot stand having anyone question your high and mightyness.

Especially since you're so modest and accepting of the possibility that you could be wrong yourself. Ah well, nevermind. I bow down to your greatness.

Shame he doesn't offer a refund on his June '04 workshop, but hopefully I'll have the money by then to afford an 80 quid loss.

Syd

09-Dec-2003, 04:25 PM

Peace brother.

Syd

09-Dec-2003, 04:33 PM

Ah yes, the face on mars and other such, and the all-powerful aliens that seeded our planet. Like I said. Science fiction.

There's nothing wrong with their mathematics my friend. Why don't you play the ball and not the man? ;)

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Dec-2003, 04:36 PM

There's nothing wrong with their maths so long as you accept both their original assumptions, and their conclusions as to what the maths mean. Hyperdimensional physics is not yet a recognised field, one day it may be, and we'll be able to jet through hyperspace, however at the moment it is sheer science fiction.

Syd

09-Dec-2003, 04:39 PM

I think you need to look at what they discuss regarding the rotational behaviours of planets like Jupiter and the like. I haven't seen anybody come out and refute that, or have problems with their models. Planets aren't science fiction, but again we digress...

hwardo

09-Dec-2003, 04:55 PM

How sad that such a valuable method of body awareness and energy cultivation could be so completely trampled on. It is disheartening to see people like bunny invoking and consequently misusing science to cut down something they clearly know nothing about.
Science is not about closing your mind, it is about discovery, and understanding MORE.
You want evidence?
1) find a qualified Chi Gung instructor.
2) practice for a long time.
3) Most importantly, LOSE THE EGO.
In the mean time, you have a right to your opinions, but I feel like it may be more valuable for the rest of us to warn new students away from closing their minds just because someone says to.

Shade

09-Dec-2003, 05:43 PM

First of all my humble apologies to anyone I may have annoyed with any of my comments on here.

Secondly, and this is to LBR, you dont have to just spend £80 and wait until June 04.

You said you would love to learn more about chi, and you asked for someone in London. I give you Paul Brecher.

All you need to do is email him for free. Then you could spend £10 or £20 going to see him for a chat. And you can do that anytime. And before you come out with something like 'oh i would but i havent got £20 to spare', pm me an address for you and I will send you the £20 so you have no excuses not to go.

Then let me know when you have seen him and we can talk again. Until then I dont see any point in talking to you any more.

hwardo

09-Dec-2003, 05:59 PM

Shade
I'm not sure who you might have annoyed-- you have been really reasonable. This has been something of a maddening thread, reading it start to finish, and your lack of hostility is commendable.

Coyote

09-Dec-2003, 06:27 PM

Just to weigh in. Maybe chi is a solipsism. If so, I've been solipsized. For those of us who DO believe in chi, the world is a richer, fuller, greater place.

I won't even get into the whole argument about whether or not chi exists FOR REAL. It's like love. If you want to, you CAN explain it in terms of reproductive limitation, chemistry, biology, etc. But if you are in love, the explanation is as irrelevant as the name.

LBR: I fully support your attempt to find chi in a form that you can credit and understand. If, however, you can't, it is extremely rude and ill-mannered of you to say, either directly or by implication, that those of us who have experienced chi are misguided or stupid.

Shade and Syd: If you have experienced chi, great! Don't belittle LBR for being skeptical. I have read through this entire forum, and I have to say that it seems like both sides have departed from the spirit of scientific inquiry and moved into the realms of brow-beating.

Don't believe me? Read back over your posts, especially your OWN posts, and see if you could have found less inflammatory ways to make your points.

RubyMoon

09-Dec-2003, 06:46 PM

My first experience of Chi was from my first Sifu, many years ago. After beginning class in the usual way, he started taking us through a series of slow, graceful movements. He offered no explaination, he simply asked us to follow along. I didn't understand what the movements were for, but they were very relaxing.

Sifu said to imagine water flowing through our bodies, entering from a point below our navels and flowing outward in all directions, down through our legs and out through our hands. As we followed him slowly through the excercises, he told us to imagine our hands moving of their own accord, as if gently guided by invisible wires. After awhile, it actually did feel like our hands were moving all on their own.

When we completed the excercises, he asked us all to hold out our palms, face up. Then, one by one, he approached and held his palms several inches over ours, face down. Each one of us felt the same thing. The first thing I noticed was a great deal of heat, more than the "normal" amount of heat you'd expect from someone's palms. Much more fascinating, however, was a sort of electro-magnetic sensation, similar to holding two magnets of the same polarities near each other.

When he took his hands away, I noticed my palms were spotted in a rather peculiar way, and I felt a strange, "creaky" sensation in my fingers. I had never felt anything quite like it. It was only after each one of us had experienced this strange new sensation that he explained what it was. He called it Chi.

Chi is a unique and unmistakable sensation. Anybody can experience this with very little effort. It doesn't matter whether you believe in it or not. It doesn't matter whether it can be proven or not. It doesn't matter if you can explain it scientifically or not.

It simply is. That is enough.