Wing Chun Punches work like da bomb in kickboxing!

[Domestic_Rat]

I sparred tonight in my club against two of the intermediate guys. At first, I couldn't get any punches in to them and they kept kicking me in the head!

Then I just started using my wing chun punches, and suddenly they couldn't block my combos! I lkept getting them in their soloplexes and faces, it was awsome!

To make things cooler, one of the two guys told me I can punch all I want, I won't hit him. At first he seemed right, but when I used wing chun punches I got him alot.

The technique I found that worked the best where your three basic punches in yung-chun. The combo of: up, middle, down, up, middle, down etc. straights.

Watta you guys think?

[Luke Bong]

Hi Domestic_Rat!

I am a big fan of Wing Chun Kung Fu myself and the only reason I am not learning it now is there is no one here who is teaching it :bang:

Well, from the way you describe the combo, it sounds mightly lot like a combo in a Street Fighter or Tekken game :D Just kidding.

But I think you are right. I am a firm believer that fundamentals are always very important. If one truly mastered the basic in punching or kicking, s/he can take down an opponent. Just because someone has been doing MA longer and has a more 'colourful belt' doesn't mean one is better. It boils down to mastery at the end of the day.

That's just what I believe in only, though,

Soo Bahk!
Luke

[Topher]

I have to say that the speed of Wing Chun really help to catch people off guard. A guy at my Tang Soo Do class who also trained in Wing Chun sometimes threw in a little WC techniques during training and even though i do WC too, i still couldn't react quick enough.

[LiaoRouxin]

Having trained in Wing Chun in a dedicated fashion for several years but also competing in Muay Thai I have some reservations about the overall effectiveness of Wing Chun punches.

1) Power generation: because the power in Wing Chun punches is entirely hip and arm-shoulder dependent it doesnt hit nearly as hard as say a cross. This can be rectified, at least to an extent, by using the power generation of a boxing punch, starting at the feet moving up, instead of just the hip motion that seems to be almost universally taught. Using the foot turn, though, you really can't use the favorite Wing Chun technique of rolling punches (though I don't like that technique anyway)

2) Unprotected head: The forward arm positioning in Wing Chun unfortunately leaves the head open to attack. So while it may feel nice to have the advantage of your arms being closer and allowing you to snap off punches quicker, you are making sacrifices for that in both power and protection.

3) I've always had a problem with the linear nature of Wing Chun's punches. Almost all of them start and end on the centerline, and although what height the delivery and impact is at varies, it's not altogether hard for people of experience to see it coming and react according. The advantage of boxing punches, as I see it, is that you're afforded many directions of attack without overly exposing yourself either. A decent boxer can throw hooks without making themselves walking billboards saying "smack me upside the head" and they've got more variety of punches to use, so I think it's harder to defend.

Wing Chun punches can be useful, and to an extent I use the straight punch still (though in the modified boxing form I touched on earlier) because, like a bolo punch, it's unexpected. Also, Wing Chun gave me the mindset to throw a punch from whatever position I'm in, so sometimes I can throw a very close punch that most Thai boxers wouldn't throw, and use it to set up another attack. For instance, if I brought my left arm perpendicular to my waist and not too far from my opponent's side, instead of retracting it to my face like I would normally do, Wing Chun taught me to look at the option of throwing that as a weak punch, then perhaps my opponent is off-balanced and I can follow with an elbow, or make them eat a knee, or another kick or something along those lines.

The important thing for you to do now is to analyze what you learned in Wing Chun and what you're learning now and try your best to mesh it all together in a way that works for you. Maybe for you the straight punch works a lot, so you'll use it a lot. Maybe it doesn't so you'll have to learn to box better, just try and see how things go. Mix and match is the key here

[Domestic_Rat]

The important thing for you to do now is to analyze what you learned in Wing Chun and what you're learning now and try your best to mesh it all together in a way that works for you. Maybe for you the straight punch works a lot, so you'll use it a lot. Maybe it doesn't so you'll have to learn to box better, just try and see how things go. Mix and match is the key here

Yes, I was thinking the same thing last night. If I could, I would take Wing-chun AND kickboxing classes. But Sadly, they are on the same nights and even the same time. :bang: So all I'm doing now is kickboxing.

Although my wing chun instructor once said that if we want private classes we should just ask. So I'm gonna ask him.

Ps - Sorry for the crappy way I described the combo, I just don't know how else to say it. :o

[Bil Gee]

Having trained in Wing Chun in a dedicated fashion for several years but also competing in Muay Thai I have some reservations about the overall effectiveness of Wing Chun punches.

Unprotected head: The forward arm positioning in Wing Chun unfortunately leaves the head open to attack. So while it may feel nice to have the advantage of your arms being closer and allowing you to snap off punches quicker, you are making sacrifices for that in both power and protection.



What complete rubbish.
Most of what you say really doesn't ring true but in particular, there is a lot of emphasis on guarding the head in Wing Chun it is a really basic part of the art.

[Domestic_Rat]

I'll be honest, If your not fast, you tend to pick up alot of punches to the face in yung-chun, since your hand is so far away from your face. Though I never saw my trainer pick up a punch in the face, so I think with a little practice you can get rid of that problem.

[EternalRage]

What complete rubbish.
Most of what you say really doesn't ring true but in particular, there is a lot of emphasis on guarding the head in Wing Chun it is a really basic part of the art.

I would ask that you respect Liao's opinions, having trained in both arts he has legitamate viewpoints and is entitled to express them, and we can all learn something from it.

Bil Gee, I've been meaning to ask you this for some time. Why is it that when anyone has anything critical to say about Wing Chun, you go on the defensive with guns blazing? Is it because WC takes alot of flaming too and you're just sick of hearing it all? I mean, Liao's post wasn't even flaming, it was very constructive and literate...

[Anonymouse]

In WC, you shouldnt be in a position to take a hit to the face if you are going to punch like that. You should be using lateral movement and angles to slip the punch before you strike out with a straight punch. Besides that, you should use the hand that is not punching, to guard your face and/or trap your opponents arm. Having trained in both WC and MT, I use my shoulder to guard my chin as well during a wing chun punch. One thing that is also good about a wing chun punch is that it guards your body while punching, not like a cross which leaves your ribs totally exposed. I train both styles of punching, both are useful in different circumstances.

[LiaoRouxin]

What complete rubbish.
Most of what you say really doesn't ring true but in particular, there is a lot of emphasis on guarding the head in Wing Chun it is a really basic part of the art.


Pardon me for being completely unknowledgable about "teh troo Wing Chun", but please enlighten me as to how the head is very well protecting in Wing Chun punching as opposed to boxing. Yes, there's protection for the head, but is it as effective as boxing's? I don't believe so, because it's a lot less tight than in boxing, there's a lot more room for error. In the academy I attended in Wan Chai we had a San Shou trainer as well, with some very good kickboxers and of course they all trained in Wing Chun as well, but not a one of them used Wing Chun defense in San Shou with any regularity.

Anonymouse brings up a good point, which is also something I do when I use the straight punch: tucking the chin. It's not, I do not think, as easy as it is in boxing, but it offers a substantial increase in protection for the chin and jaw. As I was taught one version of the straight punch, the opposite hand is raised over the upper-elbow/bicep area to block incoming shots. With the chin duck, though, that arm can now be used for other things: such as defending the other side of the head.

[Developing]

When I have boxed and been in the clinch I have found that I have had some success in firing some a quick chain of wing chung punches to the body of my opponent (usually no more than 3 or 4) and then immediately stepping to the left or right depending on which stance I'm using and then following with a hook to the head. This combination has worked for me from time to time but as with anything if it's done more than twice a good opponent will learn some way to counter it.

I agree with Anonymouse and LiaoRouxin when sparring in Jui Jitsu I have attempted to trap my opponents arm and go into a lock after using the chung strikes. I have also found that using the punches do make me feel as if my head is too exposed which is why I use them in quick combinations and stepping into or off of angles, never a direct straight forward attack. I know wing chung practitioners who do fight that way but that is not comfortable for me.

I also think there are probably many more ways to merge wing chung with boxing/kickboxing than I have described, I experiment with this quite often and am always searching for new ways to pull this off.

[Anonymouse]

"With the chin duck, though, that arm can now be used for other things: such as defending the other side of the head."

Yup. Also, alot of the time in wing chun, when someone throws a straight punch (either jab or cross) you try to slip the punch and give them a straight punch to the side of the head. Now youve set your self up for a cross from their other arm since your in the right spot now. So, your going to want that other arm on that side. For example, you are squared off and your opponent throws a left, you slip and step to your right and throw a wing chun straight right punch to his temple/eye area. Now where is your other arm? You could try to grab his attacking arm if you are quick, but what if he's quicker? Youll want that other arm protecting your face from his 2nd punch thats already coming around.

[Unisonus]

having trained in both arts he has legitamate viewpoints...

How can something false be legitimate? Moreover, Bil Gee was not defending WC - he was correcting Liao's false account of WC technique.

Liao'

WC punches are not "entirely hip and arm-shoulder dependent." In fact, most of the power comes from the footwork.

[EternalRage]

If that's the way Liao was taught, then that's the way he was taught. If Bil Gee learned something different then great. But I don't see the merit in calling someone else's experiences "rubbish" then giving little explanation as to why he would disagree.

There's more than one method of Wing Chun. That by now should be accepted. Different people learned different interpretations, and by saying someone else is blatantly wrong, that implies that you have "the real wing chun" which lets not go there. for once.

[Unisonus]

There's more than one method of Wing Chun.

I did not see a statement about his method... I saw a general statement about WC - one that happens to be false if you observe the way most schools teach WC.

[LiaoRouxin]

Well, first, I am not a "him" and second my assertions were based on experiences accrued at a variety of Wing Chun places in Hong Kong.

Let me clarify: the way I have seen Wing Chun punches thrown for the better part of my training has been with a planted foot (in conjuction with an angled step). Compared with the generation of punches in boxing, starting at the foot movement, it's more limited in terms of projection.

[Anonymouse]

Punches in WC are thrown that way in the beginning, but I think most schools will add better footwork as the students progress. Having already studied a little boxing when I got into WC, I already knew the importance of stepping into a punch and momentum and the like. When I started, I used my footwork to strengthen my blows, especially the backhand (which doesnt have a lot of power to begin with).

[Bil Gee]

I would ask that you respect Liao's opinions, having trained in both arts he has legitamate viewpoints and is entitled to express them, and we can all learn something from it.

Bil Gee, I've been meaning to ask you this for some time. Why is it that when anyone has anything critical to say about Wing Chun, you go on the defensive with guns blazing? Is it because WC takes alot of flaming too and you're just sick of hearing it all? I mean, Liao's post wasn't even flaming, it was very constructive and literate...


I have little respect for Liao's opinions, as she consistently makes wildley inaccurate statements regarding wing Chun, and the experience that she claims is inconsistent.


DOB: November 7, 1987 (17 years old)
20-Mar-2005, 08:24 AM
I compete in Muay Thai in Malaysia sometimes
24-Mar-2005, 03:06 AM
I am a martial arts instructor of two CMAs
08-May-2005, 08:43 PM
Depends on the Systema instructor, actually. I've met two, my own (though I mostly learn Sambo from him) and another who was visiting him from Moscow.
16-May-2005, 12:49 AM
I began Eagle Claw when I was four, Muay Thai when I was eight. I started taking Wing Chun two hours a day, 6 days a week when I moved to Alaska three years ago.
I started my life training Eagle Claw, I expanded into Muay Thai and later Wing Chun, I am certified to teach Eagle's Claw and Wing Chun. I have a second kyu in Judo,
02-Jun-2005, 05:32 AM
The karate fighters with the best attitudes are kyokushin guys. It doesn't hurt I did Kyokushin for about 2 months :-p
23-Jun-2005, 12:55 AM
Juji Gatame, the classic armlock. It's my Judo dojo nickname,
21-Jun-2005, 12:35 AM
Let's see:
Muay Thai: from age 7 to the present
Yingzhuaquan: Age 4 on, mostly dropped now but I still practice the one and two person forms and the locks
Wing Chun: Age 13-17
Kyokushin: about 2 months :-p Dropped
Sambo: Roughly 1 year, currently dropped
In Hong Kong I went to Au Yeun's Wing Chun academy in Wan Chai.

Martial Arts Style:
Eagle Claw, Wing Chun, Knife, Systema, SAMBO, Kyokushin, Judo, Muay Thai
Systema: 5 months, currently dropped
Judo: About a year and a quarter, running concurrently with Sambo
Demonstration Wushu: Skills developed since I started Yingzhua, but I learned the standardized forms in the past three years. I'm currently the student-instructor at my high school's wushu class.
I have slight experience in other martial arts, mostly Chinese, through my travels in China.

05-Jul-2005, 03:09 AM
My brother began teaching me Muay Thai when I was seven (though he showed me the kicking then he didn't focus on teaching kicking or throwing to me until I was 13 when I begged him to. Until then it was boxing, elbows, and some clinch work), it was my second martial art. I spent about a decade on Eagle Claw under instruction (granted, when I started I could just walk. I was 3 or 4), Wing Chun technically started the year before I moved to Alaska, got very very intense in Alaska, and then I finished my formal study of it with five months of five or more hours a day in Hong Kong. Judo is a rather new, stemming from about a year of Sambo. I did the two concurrently for a while, being a Sambo person who competed in Judo sometimes but I decided to focus on Judo and dropped the Sambo.
My current martial arts are Muay Thai, Judo, and demonstration Wushu which I arrived at by virtue of liking to fight in competitions. However, I train more than Muay Thai and Judo: many of the qinna of Eagle Claw (a lot of other elements of Eagle Claw actually appear in demonstration wushu, though not wholecloth) I practice regularly, chisao from Wing Chun, and as a tribute to my two months of kyokushin I thorw the occasional axe kick :-D

14-May-2005, 05:11 AM
I study Sambo and I compete in Judo tournaments (going for second kyu, baby!) and I know the Eagle's Claw's 108 qinna, as well as some modifications I made on it myself (less formalized modifcations, more what I can reach at a given moment), and I learned clinching from Thai boxing. I'd say my grappling is only marginally weaker than my striking


I simply don't accept the expertise that she lays claim to, and considering that one of her first posts was about her inability to land blows on friends who are at first or second grade in their respective arts, this seems justified. I've highlighted just one of the contradictions, there are many.

[Slindsay]

What complete rubbish.
Most of what you say really doesn't ring true but in particular, there is a lot of emphasis on guarding the head in Wing Chun it is a really basic part of the art.

You know what really helps in this sort of thread: Reasoning.

I mean, watch this:

WTF TKD competition teaches you to guard the face very well, much better than boxing.

WTF TKD competition fighters tend not to have a high gurad sop leave the face unprotected.

See, now one of those facts I can back up, the other I can't, but if I dont actually provide the backup one statement is as meaningless as the other, at least liao states the reason the head is unprotected is BECAUSE of something.

[Bil Gee]

You know what really helps in this sort of thread: Reasoning.

I mean, watch this:

WTF TKD competition teaches you to guard the face very well, much better than boxing.

WTF TKD competition fighters tend not to have a high gurad sop leave the face unprotected.

See, now one of those facts I can back up, the other I can't, but if I dont actually provide the backup one statement is as meaningless as the other, at least liao states the reason the head is unprotected is BECAUSE of something.

It doesn't need any more justification than the simple fact that Wing Chun is all about guarding the head. Liao as a qualified Wing Chun instructor (roflmao) should really have picked up that basic principal.

[Slindsay]

It doesn't need any more justification than the simple fact that Wing Chun is all about guarding the head. Liao as a qualified Wing Chun instructor (roflmao) should really have picked up that basic principal.

Do you in fact mean that WC is all about not getting hit in the head?

[Bil Gee]

Do you in fact mean that WC is all about not getting hit in the head?

You'll need to define the distinction, but I should also add that protecting the head is only 40% another 40% of course is about hitting your opponents head.

[Slindsay]

What most kickboxers term as guarding their head is in fact keeping both hands tucked in close to the chin in order to catch shots they dont see coming whereas I guessed that when you say guard the head you mean block incoming shots or dodge them or something like that.

[Timmy Boy]

My mate does mixed kung fu stuff, and he uses wing chun style punches. When I did TSD with him, his hands were far too fast for me to defend against. However, when you're actually making a reasonable amount of contact with someone it's a different story. He is far, far, far bigger and stronger than me, yet my punches are at least as powerful as his because I use boxing punches. Speed is all well and good as long as you don't sacrifice too much power.

And please, don't start talking to me about how he's not using teh real wing chun, this is just what I've found from my experience, I may be wrong, and I really don't give two hoots about what lineage he is.

[Taff]

Just my 2p:

I think power in the WC punch comes from 3 things:

Alignment
Hip Turning
Footwork

The alignment is of the bones to give a good penetrating punch, which can take a while to learn because it feels very un-natural at first.

Hip turning is obvious really. The twisting motion gets weight behind the punch.

Footwork depends on the situation. If you just turn/pivot/shift or whatever you call it, if you really drop the knee as you turn, then you will get even more mass behind your attack. This takes some time to get the co-ordination right and you have to be careful not to over-do the dropping.
If you step, you can also drop the knee and shift the weight as you land the foot. I think it's important to get this in as a reflex action, and again the co-ordination is difficult to master.

But eventually, when all 3 are put together you can get a relatively powerful whipping punch. I think there's something in the Biu Tze form that gives additional power but I'm not sure what it's all about yet.



As for WC not protecting the head, there is a principle in WC "cotton like body, glass like head". In other words it's saying that you shouldn't rely on being able to "take" punches because the body and head are fragile. Hence why it's important to do something about it before it gets that far.
It's unrealistic to stop every single attack over an arbitrary period of time however.

[Domestic_Rat]

Punches in WC are thrown that way in the beginning, but I think most schools will add better footwork as the students progress. Having already studied a little boxing when I got into WC, I already knew the importance of stepping into a punch and momentum and the like. When I started, I used my footwork to strengthen my blows, especially the backhand (which doesnt have a lot of power to begin with).

Anonymouse is right. In Wing Chun we first stood still and punced in a very rooted position. But as we progressed my trainer stressed on how important footwork is. Some nights we only practiced footwork for an hour and a half.
Many times my trainer said that we should practice footwork more than anything else. (I still suck at it though)

Ps - Oh yea, Bill Gee. My Wing Chun instructor has pracriced martial arts since he was 8 years old. He's now 33. He's seventh dan in Kickboxing, Wing Chun and Tai-Chi. You know why he teaches us martial arts? He said it himself: "Because I can learn from you guys"
Think about that.

[Bil Gee]

Ps - Oh yea, Bill Gee. My Wing Chun instructor has pracriced martial arts since he was 8 years old. He's now 33. He's seventh dan in Kickboxing, Wing Chun and Tai-Chi. You know why he teaches us martial arts? He said it himself: "Because I can learn from you guys"
Think about that.

Thinking hard, but can't work out how that fits in with anything I've posted. Are you on drugs?

[RAGINGbuddha]

Sifu says:
"Don't lean, step in!" (when hitting)

[Bil Gee]

My mate does mixed kung fu stuff, and he uses wing chun style punches. When I did TSD with him, his hands were far too fast for me to defend against. However, when you're actually making a reasonable amount of contact with someone it's a different story. He is far, far, far bigger and stronger than me, yet my punches are at least as powerful as his because I use boxing punches. Speed is all well and good as long as you don't sacrifice too much power.

And please, don't start talking to me about how he's not using teh real wing chun, this is just what I've found from my experience, I may be wrong, and I really don't give two hoots about what lineage he is.

Sounds about right, fast hands and good instinctive control of the centreline. The trade off is that you don't get the full power of a boxers hook. However, a finger strike to the eyes, a punch to the throat etc don't need enormous power to drop the opponent to the floor. Off course WC never settles for one blow and always aims to take full advantage of an openining with a rapid succession of blows such as chain punches.

[Timmy Boy]

Sounds about right, fast hands and good instinctive control of the centreline. The trade off is that you don't get the full power of a boxers hook. However, a finger strike to the eyes, a punch to the throat etc don't need enormous power to drop the opponent to the floor. Off course WC never settles for one blow and always aims to take full advantage of an openining with a rapid succession of blows such as chain punches.

We're not talking about eye gouges or throat strikes so let's leave that issue aside and concentrate on closed fist punching.

My mate wasn't getting the full power of a boxer's jab, let alone a hook. It's one thing punching too fast for me to defend against in light contact sparring where we're not allowed to to make contact with the head at all; it's quite another trying to knock someone out with them. Were it not for his great strength his punches would be annoying at best, and since I'm not a particularly good puncher anyway I'm not entirely convinced that even his WC punches would be any good.

If someone e.g. the original poster has succeeded with this strategy in full contact competition against people trying to actually take his head off then I will stand corrected. However, until then, my opinion must remain that wing chun punches - their closed fist variants at least - are rubbish in comparison to those of western boxing for this type of sport.

[Bil Gee]

We're not talking about eye gouges or throat strikes so let's leave that issue aside and concentrate on closed fist punching.

My mate wasn't getting the full power of a boxer's jab, let alone a hook. Speed is pointless if it makes your punches too weak to actually cause damage, and if it hadn't been for my mate's enormous strength advantage his punches would simply have been weak, and that's no good - punches should be efficient so that you can hit with a decent amount of force without relying purely on brawn. At the end of the day, a kickboxer wants punches he can knock someone out with and IMO wing chun style ones would simply annoy your opponent before he hit you with some big bombs and knocked you out.

If someone e.g. the original poster has tried this strategy in full contact competition against people trying to actually take his head off then I will stand corrected. However, until then, my opinion must remain that wing chun punches - their closed fist variants at least - are rubbish in comparison to those of western boxing for this type of sport.

There is plenty of power in a Wing Chun punch, however, it probably takes a lot more time to train that power than it does for more conventional punching. I have been lifted off the floor, had all the air pushed out of my lungs and been sent flying backwards by a single wing chun punch to my chest through a kick bag, and I'm 6'2" and weigh just under 15 stones. I can't generate that kind of power yet, although I've got a lot closer over the last year. You really shouldn't draw any conclusions from your experience with one friend. Wing Chun takes 3-4 years solid training to develop real skill in the system.

[Timmy Boy]

There is plenty of power in a Wing Chun punch, however, it probably takes a lot more time to train that power than it does for more conventional punching. I have been lifted off the floor, had all the air pushed out of my lungs and been sent flying backwards by a single wing chun punch to my chest through a kick bag, and I'm 6'2" and weigh just under 15 stones. I can't generate that kind of power yet, although I've got a lot closer over the last year. You really shouldn't draw any conclusions from your experience with one friend. Wing Chun takes 3-4 years solid training to develop real skill in the system.

My experience with my friend wasn't proof, but since he's been at it for a good couple of years I would expect him to have decent punching technique by now so it's still pretty suggestive to me; besides, you already admitted it's not as powerful as a boxer's hook. The actual proof, to me, is that boxing has been developing for thousands of years and you see it working in full contact combat sports all the time. If wing chun punches work better in a kickboxing match, or in any kind of full contact combat sport, then sorry but I want to see some hard proof; until then, boxing is far more plausible in this situation.

[Taff]

There is nothing wrong with single WC punches, if you do what I said in an earlier post, you can get your weight behind them, while retaining the snap, and also you will not be in danger of over-committing. But to get that all right takes a long time and then you have to constantly improve it. I am not a fan at all of continuous chain punching. It seems like a waste of energy to me, and brings back bad memories of WT days.

[EternalRage]

Bil Gee - had no idea about Liao, guess you have a right to be skeptical about her posts.

There's already been multiple methods to a Wing Chun punch defined on this thread, and I bet there are many other ways taught as well. It's too hard to gauge the power and technique of a Wing Chun punch because there's too many different interpretations of it. Experiences against the punch probably have the same varied results.

Sounds about right, fast hands and good instinctive control of the centreline. The trade off is that you don't get the full power of a boxers hook. However, a finger strike to the eyes, a punch to the throat etc don't need enormous power to drop the opponent to the floor. Off course WC never settles for one blow and always aims to take full advantage of an openining with a rapid succession of blows such as chain punches.
Just wanted to point out that WC is not unique in having finger jabs, punches to different vital targets, and rapid combinations of blows. Though it is interesting to note how many WCers (not you specifically Bil Gee) will claim this as some trump card that they can pull out against X style or Y set of rules.

[Anonymouse]

The reason WC people always bring up those techniques is because a lot of schools practice them almost exclusively after a certain point. The reason for this is that once you are proficient in the basic movements and are able to produce a decent amount of power with your strikes, you are then trained to end a conflict as quick as possible, and to do that, WC prescribes that you strike these areas and use these techniques. They are practiced religiously.

[Bil Gee]

The reason WC people always bring up those techniques is because a lot of schools practice them almost exclusively after a certain point. The reason for this is that once you are proficient in the basic movements and are able to produce a decent amount of power with your strikes, you are then trained to end a conflict as quick as possible, and to do that, WC prescribes that you strike these areas and use these techniques. They are practiced religiously.

that's been my experience, the focus is on linear strikes, using fa jing to vital points, particularly the neck and the eyes. Other arts may have it amongst other attacks, but it is a speciality of Wing Chun in that that's what we spend nearly all of our time training.

[jabcrosshook]

There is plenty of power in a Wing Chun punch, however, it probably takes a lot more time to train that power than it does for more conventional punching. I have been lifted off the floor, had all the air pushed out of my lungs and been sent flying backwards by a single wing chun punch to my chest through a kick bag, and I'm 6'2" and weigh just under 15 stones. I can't generate that kind of power yet, although I've got a lot closer over the last year. You really shouldn't draw any conclusions from your experience with one friend. Wing Chun takes 3-4 years solid training to develop real skill in the system.

So, we've established the fact that a wing chun punch is not as powerful as a boxers hook. Now, you've been "lifted off the floor, had all the air pushed out of my lungs and been sent flying backwards by a single wing chun punch to my chest through a kick bag". Now, I would stand behind a kickbag, and put money on me not being sent flying backwards by a single boxer's hook to my chest. I am 5 foot 6 and weigh just over 75 :)

[Bil Gee]

So, we've established the fact that a wing chun punch is not as powerful as a boxers hook. Now, you've been "lifted off the floor, had all the air pushed out of my lungs and been sent flying backwards by a single wing chun punch to my chest through a kick bag". Now, I would stand behind a kickbag, and put money on me not being sent flying backwards by a single boxer's hook to my chest. I am 5 foot 6 and weigh just over 75 :)

I don't know, thankfully I've never been on receiving end of a boxers hook. I imagine that a hook from somebody like Tyson would probably break a regular persons skull into pieces though.

[Taff]

I don't know, thankfully I've never been on receiving end of a boxers hook. I imagine that a hook from somebody like Tyson would probably break a regular persons skull into pieces though.

With gloves on, I don't think so.

Without gloves on....

Is that story true about Tyson, when he got pissed off with someone and hit them, but ended up busting his hand to pieces because he wasn't used to punching with wraps and gloves.

[jabcrosshook]

With gloves on, I don't think so.

With gloves on, he'd make a pretty bad mess of our faces.

Without gloves on....

Death

Is that story true about Tyson, when he got pissed off with someone and hit them, but ended up busting his hand to pieces because he wasn't used to punching with wraps and gloves.

I would doubt it, to be honest

[Timmy Boy]

I can believe he busted his hand to be fair, because it's not uncommon for people to do that, but I wouldn't blame it on not being used to punching without wraps and gloves, especially with someone as violent as Mike Tyson.

[jabcrosshook]

I can believe he busted his hand to be fair, because it's not uncommon for people to do that, but I wouldn't blame it on not being used to punching without wraps and gloves, especially with someone as violent as Mike Tyson.

And after all, he pretty much grew up as a fighter on the streets. I would imagine he has a damn good clue how to punch someone without wraps on. Ok, he may have broken his hand but there are a multitude of reasons for this to happen.

[Slindsay]

To be honest if Tyson broke his hand punching somone then we are all going to be screwed in a street fight 'cos I doubt any of us have a wrist as strong as his.

Secondly what the hell happened to the poor guy he punched if Tyson broke his wrist?

[jabcrosshook]

Secondly what the hell happened to the poor guy he punched if Tyson broke his wrist?

Nothing a bit of plastic reconstructive surgery couldn't solve (along with numerous operations). :D

Coming back to the original point of this thread, wing chun punches might work in kickboxing but not as well as other punches (boxing/kickboxing ones). If Wing Chun punches worked better then we would all use them. There is a reason why we don't.

Whilst WC punches might work better in the beginning stages of kickboxing, they don't work well in the long run so time is better spent tuning your kickboxing technique. You'll thank me in the end ;)

[Anonymouse]

Those are fine points Norm. I agree that wing chun is not as good in the kickboxing ring as kickboxing, after all, kb training is designed to be the best under the rules setting. Most of wing chun skills are negated with boxing gloves on: trapping, finger strikes, and not to mention that the punches are a bit weaker as is, let alone with the added pad of the gloves. One thing that deducts from most kung fu and karate styles effectiveness in the ring is that most ancient asian styles use bone hardening techniques to make their weaker punches cause more damage. This is also negated with gloves. Also, boxing blocks are good against boxing punches because of the gloves (unless you train with MMA gloves or similar style small gloves). Most people get used to blocking with the boxing gloves, and also defending against a huge doughy fist that cant fit through most holes in defense. Kickboxing is far superior in the ring under kickboxing rules than wing chun. (this coming from a wing chun guy btw)

[jabcrosshook]

Kickboxing is far superior in the ring under kickboxing rules than wing chun. (this coming from a wing chun guy btw)

That is refreshing to know :) Thank you for being honest!

[Timmy Boy]

People, can you please stop jumping in to defend how good wing chun is on teh street. We're talking about kickboxing, please don't start trying to open up the same old can of worms.

[Bil Gee]

People, can you please stop jumping in to defend how good wing chun is on teh street. We're talking about kickboxing, please don't start trying to open up the same old can of worms.

I'd be surprised if any style was better in a KB competition than KB, I'd also be surprised if any style was better than TKD in a competition. WC places no emphasis on fighting with gloves on or within a rule set. So IMO the answer to the original question, is pretty obvious and everybody seems to agree. If you want to win at kickboxing then learn kickboxing.

[jabcrosshook]

I'd be surprised if any style was better in a KB competition than KB, I'd also be surprised if any style was better than TKD in a competition.

You do mean TKD competition, right? Not trying to sound nitpicky or arrogant, but if you genuinely meant "a competition" then it was a pretty dumb statement.

[mai tai]

My experience with my friend wasn't proof, but since he's been at it for a good couple of years I would expect him to have decent punching technique by now so it's still pretty suggestive to me; besides, you already admitted it's not as powerful as a boxer's hook. The actual proof, to me, is that boxing has been developing for thousands of years and you see it working in full contact combat sports all the time. If wing chun punches work better in a kickboxing match, or in any kind of full contact combat sport, then sorry but I want to see some hard proof; until then, boxing is far more plausible in this situation.

timmy timmy timmy...you poor misguilded boy......didnt i start a thread a while back. asking for footage of kung fu working on ....anyone. well i got not one response...not one. and now you want footage of it defeating a kickboxer....keep hoping

[Timmy Boy]

timmy timmy timmy...you poor misguilded boy......didnt i start a thread a while back. asking for footage of kung fu working on ....anyone. well i got not one response...not one. and now you want footage of it defeating a kickboxer....keep hoping

I think that's another topic for another day, mai tai... :D

[Bil Gee]

You do mean TKD competition, right? Not trying to sound nitpicky or arrogant, but if you genuinely meant "a competition" then it was a pretty dumb statement.

Yes I meant TKD competition

[Anonymouse]

"People, can you please stop jumping in to defend how good wing chun is on teh street. We're talking about kickboxing, please don't start trying to open up the same old can of worms."

I dunno if this was in response to my post, but if it was, you should re-read mine. I was trying to point out that the skill set for kickboxing curriculum is superior to wing chun under kickboxing rules. Using gloves to block incoming punches is something unique to the rules and to boxing, but is a neccessary skill, and being good at it will make you a better boxer. That is true for a lot of little subtleties surrounding the gloves, and because of this (as well as a few other reasons), kickboxing is better at kickboxing than wing chun. Anyway, I didnt see anyone else's post that could be seen as "defending wing chun's effectiveness on the street", but if you werent replying to me, then nevermind :)