HKD Ground Fighting

[Blade3]

How many of you in so called traditional HKD train for ground fighting?
I know that most HKD boast stand up as well as ground but these things vary from system to system. How long is it from White Belt to 1st dan black that students in your system start to learn some form of ground attacks & defenses from them? How often is clinching & the use of the knees to the thighs, ribs, etc when standing? Are you confident that your system teaches enough to deal with a skilled grappeler or mma in a sparring situation or on the streets. Do any of you believe that you have cross train in another style or are you fine where you are?
I'm just curious because last night I finally visted a school that a friend teaches BJJ, & his guys were asking me a bunch of questions about HKD & it's ground fighting arsenal as well as it's use of the knees in a clinch & the shins for kicks.
Ofcourse I tried to explain the system that I train in as well as a few others that I've witnessed but everyone there had to tell me of a school that they visited & all they saw was a bunch of TKD kicks, & standing wrist grabs, & blah,blah,blah.
So please, I could really care less about what they think but now I'm just curious, so if you can post your expirence & thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it.
Peace,
B3 aka Blacc Billy Jacc

[Slindsay]

The place I went never taught any groundfighting, it jusy had kicks and joingt locks along with weapons patterns.

[American HKD]

How many of you in so called traditional HKD train for ground fighting?
I know that most HKD boast stand up as well as ground but these things vary from system to system. How long is it from White Belt to 1st dan black that students in your system start to learn some form of ground attacks & defenses from them? How often is clinching & the use of the knees to the thighs, ribs, etc when standing? Are you confident that your system teaches enough to deal with a skilled grappeler or mma in a sparring situation or on the streets. Do any of you believe that you have cross train in another style or are you fine where you are?
I'm just curious because last night I finally visted a school that a friend teaches BJJ, & his guys were asking me a bunch of questions about HKD & it's ground fighting arsenal as well as it's use of the knees in a clinch & the shins for kicks.
Ofcourse I tried to explain the system that I train in as well as a few others that I've witnessed but everyone there had to tell me of a school that they visited & all they saw was a bunch of TKD kicks, & standing wrist grabs, & blah,blah,blah.
So please, I could really care less about what they think but now I'm just curious, so if you can post your expirence & thoughts I'd greatly appreciate it.
Peace,
B3 aka Blacc Billy Jacc

Greetings

I teach ground fighting but not to be confused with ground grappling it's not the same thing although elements of grappling is present.

GF consists of kicks, locks, strikes, blocks, same as standing but executed and defended from lying, kneeling, rolling, etc.

It's works and is very good just like the standing techs.

[Korpy]

I see various belts learning ground fighting.

The 2nd kicking combination I learned had clinching and using your knees.

I see groundfighting, clinching from a variety of belts.

[JimH]

The techniques that apply to close in stand up defenses in Hapkido or against the wall,also apply to defenses from the ground,they just need be trained from the ground to make them work.(because gravity does have an effect)

In the CH I study we do have ground grappling as an added bonus,as provided by Carlson Gracie Jr,but the school I train in teaches quick escapes over exchanges and trying to pin for sport.

Sport is sport,trying to go to the ground on purpose is not my idea of street defense.
(when a Gracie gets mugged in New York and goes for a shoot and breaks his knee,I think "what are my chances, or most peoples, of making it work" I want to stay away from the ground)

My believe is that in a street altercation with a criminal,the odds of my encountering a BJJ, or Ground grappling, trained person is very,very,slim,so why do I need years of training in a sport art that I am not interested in whena few good basics is all I need to escape .
(just my opinion,to each his own,that is what makes us individuals)

[Slindsay]

The techniques that apply to close in stand up defenses in Hapkido or against the wall,also apply to defenses from the ground,they just need be trained from the ground to make them work.(because gravity does have an effect)

In the CH I study we do have ground grappling as an added bonus,as provided by Carlson Gracie Jr,but the school I train in teaches quick escapes over exchanges and trying to pin for sport.

Sport is sport,trying to go to the ground on purpose is not my idea of street defense.
(when a Gracie gets mugged in New York and goes for a shoot and breaks his knee,I think "what are my chances, or most peoples, of making it work" I want to stay away from the ground)

My believe is that in a street altercation with a criminal,the odds of my encountering a BJJ, or Ground grappling, trained person is very,very,slim,so why do I need years of training in a sport art that I am not interested in whena few good basics is all I need to escape .
(just my opinion,to each his own,that is what makes us individuals)

Habve you got a source for the Gracie broken knee cap thing? Never heard of it before now?

[Thomas]

Something I posted previously

School specific reply here
Here's something I posted earlier about what our school does... other people may do differently:


I know there is a difference between “grappling” and “ground survival” and I would actually characterize our program as “ground survival”… our main goal is to prevent going down if possible, reduce damage if we do go down, get back to our feet and escape, and to use techniques to finish the fight on the ground if we can’t get back to our feet and disengage. Our main goal is to protect ourselves and get out of there as soon as possible.

(Combat Hapkido ranks: white, yellow, green, purple, blue, brown, red, red/black, black/white, black)
In Combat Hapkido, we start students out at yellow belt with basic breakfalls… to help prepare students for the inevitable fall to the ground… whether it’s accidental and solo, or intentional with an opponent. Students also begin to learn strikes (esp. kicks) to use from the breakfall position… mainly to keep an opponent from attacking them on the ground.

At yellow belt or so, we add the various leg traps and takedowns from the ground to take a standing opponent down while we are on the ground. We teach some follow up strikes and a few submissions. However, at these levels (and actually all throughout our system’s philosophy), our main intent is to get back to our feet to strike or get away… not to stay and play on the ground if we can avoid it.

Around green, yellow, and purple, we work defences against takedowns… especially from single and double leg and practice using our underhook/sidestepping, posting, evasion, sprawling, and occasionally striking (especially to feed into a guillotine)

At green, purple and blue belt or so, we work the scenarios for if we end up on the ground. We practice the guard and the mount and work some submissions from both top and bottom, from the guard, side guard, and the mount. We work extractions and trying to get back to our feet, but we also work transitioning into submissions or striking… as the situation presents itself.

From Red belt and up we continue building on the ground survival techniques and begin incorporating the option of going to the ground in our advanced sparring classes (“no rules- good control”). For the 1st dan test, we evaluate all of the techniques listed here and do a bit of ground work like escaping the guard, escaping someone who is mounting you, and etc.

Keep in mind that even within the “basic core” Combat Hapkido course, the ground survival program is relatively basic and designed to keep you safe until you can get back to your feet and get out of there. It is also designed to give you a “leg-up” on techniques to protect you if you are taken to the ground and can’t get up quickly. However, there is enough material, resources, and seminars available for students who want to do much more in terms of adding a bigger ground game to their core system. All in all, the basic concepts are the same…. just applied to a different entry and situation.


To answer your other questions:
How many of you in so called traditional HKD train for ground fighting?
I don't know why the use of the word "so-called", but I have experience in both Traditional and Combat Hapkido. For me personally, I've done more ground survival in Combat Hapkido than Traditional... may vary by schools though.

I know that most HKD boast stand up as well as ground but these things vary from system to system. How long is it from White Belt to 1st dan black that students in your system start to learn some form of ground attacks & defenses from them? How often is clinching & the use of the knees to the thighs, ribs, etc when standing?
See above quote (long one) for details
Are you confident that your system teaches enough to deal with a skilled grappeler or mma in a sparring situation or on the streets.

Lots of tough questions here, let me break it down a bit.

The ground survival we do is designed as "self defence" and as a means of dealing with a situation if it goes to the ground. We aren't trying to win a match... we are trying to get away. In my opinion, our program is adequate for those purposes. Students who want to compete in MMA (successfully) need to go to another school and practice under the specific rules and learn to use the best strategies for winning in the cage. The two systems should be complimentary, but to do well in MMA, I woulkd recommend other specific training.

We do spar with open rules in class and take it to the ground. Our Hapkido guys do "pretty well" with the judo and jujitsu guys that come in, which makes me feel that they should be able to handle someone with grappling skills on the street. Again, it all depends on the situation. Hopefully my students will avoid the situation before they end up on the ground on the street... but if they do, they have the tools to get away.

Do any of you believe that you have cross train in another style or are you fine where you are?
Combat Hapkido as a system has lots of cross training opportunities built in. My personal opinion is that most martial art systems include everything you need, but cross training can give broader/more specific/quicker skills in desired areas. I recommend cross training and experience in other systems for everyone... preferably after getting a good base in one system.

[zac_duncan]

How many of you in so called traditional HKD train for ground fighting?

I train in "so-called traditional HKD" and we train ground fighting with some regularity. It's not a part of the belt requirements, but we do train fairly regularly.

How often is clinching & the use of the knees to the thighs, ribs, etc when standing?

Frequently. A lot of the time.

Are you confident that your system teaches enough to deal with a skilled grappeler or mma in a sparring situation or on the streets. Do any of you believe that you have cross train in another style or are you fine where you are?

Am I confident against a skilled grappler or mma on the ground? No. I'd get rolled. Am I better prepared on the ground than most people I'd run into on the street? Hell yes I am. I don't have the time to train for the ring and I'm not a competitive person, but I do try to make certain I've got enough ground game to defend myself. I don't believe you need to be a Gracie be able to defend yourself on the ground.

Now, were I attacked by someone with a better ground game, and they managed to take me down, I'd be in trouble, sure. But how many grapplers are out there mugging people? Has anyone ever heard "Give me all your money or I'll go for double leg"?

That said, I make certain to roll with people whenever I can. It's important practice and it's fun. If your school doesn't do practice ground work, then you owe it yourself to get some training.


Now here's my caveat: I've never been in an actual fight in my adult life. But I do spar with people from other styles and the spars often go to the ground. Sometimes I win down there, sometimes not (more often than not I do, especially if their school has no ground training). But I pretty much always hold my own and against someone without training, I'll win.

[Blade3]

Thank you all for your responses, & Thomas your always a well full of knowledge. :)
The reason why I said so-called traditional hapkido is because it's younger than my dad whose only 59. :D
Now on some sites if I post tradional, atleast 20 people come outta the wood works and explain to me the whole shabang of HKD even though I have some years in it.

But please keep em' coming, cause it's all good food. :)

Peace,
B3 aka Blacc Billy Jacc

[Slindsay]

I've just been doing a MMA class and I think that a lot of people have a misconception about it, this class was SD oriented and when we did ground work the idea was that one peron fought three people in a row and attempted to submit or escape from them.

Point being that not all MMA is oriented towards cage fighting thnough I have no idea about the percentages.

[Thomas]

I've just been doing a MMA class and I think that a lot of people have a misconception about it, this class was SD oriented and when we did ground work the idea was that one peron fought three people in a row and attempted to submit or escape from them.

Point being that not all MMA is oriented towards cage fighting thnough I have no idea about the percentages.

Nice point made. Many, many people make assumptions based on very little information. As a student I feel you have to be very clear about what you want and discuss it with your instructors... and instructors should feel free to recommend students to other places that "fit" better.

In any case, as simple as it sounds, you have to actually teach things that fit your objectives. If I run a TKD school that specializes in Olympic style sparring and I want to advertise "self defence", I need to focus on that as well. In the case of the people who have posted here about ground grappling in Hapkido, I think it's clear that we seem to be teaching "enough for self defense" but probably not enough for MMA competition.

Here's an interesting thread on whether MMA "automatically" equals self defence. I don't think there's any question of the effectiveness of the training methods... but do they fit your goals...
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25191

[nj_howard]

... In the case of the people who have posted here about ground grappling in Hapkido, I think it's clear that we seem to be teaching "enough for self defense" but probably not enough for MMA competition.

Thomas, good point... because MMA competition and traditional Hapkido are mutually exclusive. There simply is no sporting component to traditional Hapkido. The original art that Choi Young Sool taught has ground defense, but I know of very few traditional Hapkido techniques that involves going to the ground on purpose, as you find in BJJ and MMA.

The traditional Hapkido that I know emphasizes getting back onto your feet as soon as you can safely in the event that you end up on the ground.

[MarcoPolo]

I train in "so-called traditional HKD" and we train ground fighting with some regularity. It's not a part of the belt requirements, but we do train fairly regularly.



Frequently. A lot of the time.



Am I confident against a skilled grappler or mma on the ground? No. I'd get rolled. Am I better prepared on the ground than most people I'd run into on the street? Hell yes I am. I don't have the time to train for the ring and I'm not a competitive person, but I do try to make certain I've got enough ground game to defend myself. I don't believe you need to be a Gracie be able to defend yourself on the ground.

Now, were I attacked by someone with a better ground game, and they managed to take me down, I'd be in trouble, sure. But how many grapplers are out there mugging people? Has anyone ever heard "Give me all your money or I'll go for double leg"?

That said, I make certain to roll with people whenever I can. It's important practice and it's fun. If your school doesn't do practice ground work, then you owe it yourself to get some training.


Now here's my caveat: I've never been in an actual fight in my adult life. But I do spar with people from other styles and the spars often go to the ground. Sometimes I win down there, sometimes not (more often than not I do, especially if their school has no ground training). But I pretty much always hold my own and against someone without training, I'll win.


FANTASTIC POST! As a "BJJ guy" (who now trains HKD and CH as well) I feel that the chances of you running into a great grappler on the street are slim to none. If you can learn good ground defense and escape (aka Ground Survival) I think you put yourself way ahead of the game against the average Joe.
However, if it ever does happen.. ouch.
LOVE the "give me all your money or i'll go for a double leg" LOL! I'll use that one!

[zac_duncan]

FANTASTIC POST! ...


Thanks bro. I appreciate it,

LOVE the "give me all your money or i'll go for a double leg" LOL! I'll use that one!

Go right ahead, I like it to.

[American HKD]

FANTASTIC POST! As a "BJJ guy" (who now trains HKD and CH as well) I feel that the chances of you running into a great grappler on the street are slim to none. If you can learn good ground defense and escape (aka Ground Survival) I think you put yourself way ahead of the game against the average Joe.
However, if it ever does happen.. ouch.
LOVE the "give me all your money or i'll go for a double leg" LOL! I'll use that one!

That's great!


"give me all your money or i'll go for a double leg TD"