Without pain?

[Thomas Vince]

That which is without pain is not learned.

Give me your exlplanations Martial Artists!

Vince!

[Melanie]

The only time I have heard an expression like this is when repeating block after block in training. Apparently muscle memory and calcifying bones makes a better karateka?

I also found Heian Sandan fairly arduous on the feet (when doing fumikomi - stamping kick)..that made me remember the kata quite clearly. Especially as I developed a Bursa from my grading doing this kata and ended up taking a forced 3 month rest!

...I did pass though :)

[darlph]

It is perhaps an older saying. Like -no pain, no gain. I know
that a pain in the head and a pain in the body is two different things. I know a sore pain is different than a damaging pain.

[morphus]

I have conflicting views myself on this subject - i don't think you have to experence pain to have knowledge of techniques at all, but i do think to everybody needs to feel pain to have an idea of what it's like to get hit so that its not such a shock to the system when it happens, how much of that pain is down to the individual, though I THINK you don't need a huge amount to appretiate it - i mean if someone pinches you, you flinch - you don't need the pinch to be any harder to know how much it'll hurt even more when it happens, the taste was enough!!!!
hhmmmm....... I 'm clearer than i thought on the matter...lol:D

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Pain hurts. Don't let it happen.

No pain means no pain, gain is easy to come by without it.

[ladyhawk]

Ya gotta learn to take it as well as dish it out.

I think some pain is needed in reality training.
For me it is easier to understand how certain self defense/street techiques work if I feel them. I am not the kind of person that taps out immediately as soon as the pressure is applied. If you
understand the biomechanics and how it feels it is easier to learn how to adapt the techniques for various situations because what works on some people may not work on others.

[Greyghost]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is impossible to perform a technique properly without having "experienced" it first. Its the best way to learn how it should be applied.

Besides, i wouldn't apply a painful lock on a student without letting them return the compliment.

Physical pain is a temporary sensation. It will go away.

[stump]

On old instructor of mine used to distinguish between "pain" and "discomfort". You can work through discomfort because it's the bodies way of telling you you are approaching your boundaries. Pain is when somethings gone wrong and you're hurt.

I think this saying kinda sums it up for me. Dunno where it's from:

"The iron thinks itself needlessly burned in the fire and hammered on the anvil.....the sword looks back an understands why".

[morphus]

Thats what i was thinking stump - roughly!

[ladyhawk]

OK, you guys answered Thomas's guestion...Now, will everyone (except for Thomas because this is an old topic for us) please stroll over to Questions and Answers and kindly give my quesion entitled "Sacrificing Power to Gain Power" some thought;

Click Here! (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=817)

Thank you muchly!

[Thomas Vince]

I think my old instructor said it best when he said : " Feeling is believing."
Pain is a generalization based upon extremes but if you cannot feel pain or discomfort as it has been described you will never understand how and why the application works. Martial Arts requires a baptism by fire sort of approach in order to be any good at it.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Okay, we'll agree to differ, and I get less pain into the bargain.

[Darzeka]

When the body and mind experience extremes like pain, fatigue, joy you tend to let go of your conscious mind more and then you reach a more naturally flowing level of your mind where you merely react to the environment.

With relation to learning if you are pained, fatigued, whatever to the point where you begin to slip into this level of the mind and it become ingrained into your being and will happen faster and more easily when next you go to do this. It becomes learned, you need not think about doing it.

If you only practise this and are thinking about it and checking, it becomes more technically correct but will lack the flow. Practising will also make the flowing movement better if you also train at a point beyond your boundaries.

The difference in one case it becomes learned - in the other practised

In short - practise, practise, practise. Get really tired then do it, don't think, get to point where you can't really think then do it. It will become learned.



I will give you all another one that my instructor has us thinking about now.

A drop of sal****er knows the ocean

[Freeform]

With PP's and locking techniques I think that you really have to experience them before you can apply them to your maximum potential. Also I've seen Ju Jitsu clubs where they do not apply these techniques to pain, only discomfort, and see massive flaws in their form/technique. Only through correct application do we learn. I'm not advocating the breaking of bones and applying a PP until someone passes out, but to the point of pain.

Pain is one of the greatest teachers!

Thanx

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Where do you draw the limit safely?

[stump]

The "tap". You teach people to apply pressure until the partner taps. It's the best way I know to teach correct locking/pp techniques safely.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

How do you deal with the macho 'I can take more than you' issue, or do you not get that more than once?

[stump]

I've never found it myself though I've tried to stretch my threshold but that's a personal thing.

Whenever I teach anything requiring a tap I point out that the person you're working with is your partner, not your opponent. I also let them know if they abuse it they'll wish they hadn't!!! i don't like bullying but you have to make people understand the damage you can do with these techniques. Thankfully I've never had to make good on a threat. I wouldn't teach it in the first place if I thought that I'd have to.

[johndoch]

I remember getting jumped by some guy who decided to take a rock too my skull at great speed. I was hit on the head and face around 6 times and knocked semi-concious. I think the funny thing was that there was no pain, the pain didnt come until the next day. Just tryin to say that when you really think you're in serious trouble pain is not an issue and survival is paramount. With all the adrenaline (and god knows what else) kickin about the body in a real situation its fair to say the human body has its own mechanisms to counter pain and for this reason I believe that this cannot be created in a dojo.

[Freeform]

How do you deal with the macho 'I can take more than you' issue, or do you not get that more than once?

Generally I scream 'TAP OUT YOU SONUVAB!TCH, OR I'LL BREAK YOUR ****ING ARM!!!' :)

Childern are EXTRA supervised when doing techniques like these, not because of a macho attitude, in my experience a child will tap, but the control of the application. Normally I'll gentlely apply to the point of discomfort the technique on each of them so they now what it feels like and explain to the kids that if they hurt their partner to remember that they also get a shot ;)

Adult normally get 'Tap out when it hurts or I'll keep cranking it on until it breaks, cause I won't know that its on yet (which I will, but don't tell them :) Sometimes you get double jointers who just don't hurt)

Thanx

[pgm316]

Beginners can be dangerous. Whereas we’d apply just enough pressure to prove the lock works without doing any damage. A beginner is more unpredictable, can be anything from useless to cartilage crunching agony! grrh to them

If you don’t put it on properly it could be too easily reversed, then you get into the debate about what would have happened in reality. I’d have head butted you several times! hehe

I’m still unsure about the value of locks in a fight, unless you do some damage with one or hit em when you get them down aren’t you just back to square one when you release it!?

[Freeform]

I’m still unsure about the value of locks in a fight, unless you do some damage with one or hit em when you get them down aren’t you just back to square one when you release it!?

No, because you don't just lock the joint in a scrap, you break the limb!

[waya]

Well said Freeform. I think that's a huge misconception with joint locks in street combat, you never hold the lock, just apply it to do maximum damage in the shortest time possible. I'd never use one simply as a submission hold, that would be near suicide, especially if the guy is popular lol.

Rob

[stump]

I once tried to restrain a guy with a wrist lock which didn't work and I was very lucky not to get clobbered by him!! I forgot you have to stun or distract people to make locks work in the real world.

[Thomas Vince]

In my experience I do not need a "tap out" I expect it. I can "feel" when a fulcrum is applied properly and can see the effects on his dimensions. If a lock is applied properly there is no escape, the problem is in being giving the opportunity to apply it correctly. Opportunity is something that we learn create as martial artists and this is what the Dojo or kwoon exists for.

[waya]

Thomas,
Very correct that there is no escape to a perfectly applied lock. One of the things I have been taught from the start in close in fighting is that if a lock is applied perfectly, what do I do.... I learned the answer is to have my wrist, arm, leg, or whatever is in the lock broken, and move on.

Most people I talk to don't think that a locking technique is practical, but they are thinking of a simplistic wrist grab or something of the sort, I have only in the last couple years begun learning how effective locking techniques can be myself.

Rob

[Freeform]

I once had a very philisophical disscussion with my Tai Jitsu Instructor over the difference between a restraining technique (lock) or a breaking technique. Its much easier IMHO to apply a break than a restraint, your offering your opponent the oppertunity to counter you somehow.

Aikido Ukemi was developed so that practitioners could bang these techniques on full force without breaking their Uki. I get really annoyed when people diss Aikido saying 'That wouldn't throw you' yes your correct but you've also missed the point completely!

Thanx

[waya]

Freeform,
I think we had the same discussion with our instructors lol. I was speaking with the Bujinkan instructor I train with and he quoted Hatsumi Soke when he said that you break it, and move on. We talked alot about how people look at different techniques from the outside, with no understanding of them, and totally discount them as being a real, effective technique based on appearances.

Rob

[pgm316]

Originally posted by waya
Thomas,
Very correct that there is no escape to a perfectly applied lock. One of the things I have been taught from the start in close in fighting is that if a lock is applied perfectly, what do I do.... I learned the answer is to have my wrist, arm, leg, or whatever is in the lock broken, and move on.

Most people I talk to don't think that a locking technique is practical, but they are thinking of a simplistic wrist grab or something of the sort, I have only in the last couple years begun learning how effective locking techniques can be myself.

Rob

Would you use the same techniques in your locks and breaking techniques? Which breaking techniques do you find to be the most effective? For breaks I think I’d only consider the arm at the elbow joint and fingers. Can be more difficult getting leverage to the wrist and I wouldn’t try breaking the leg with anything other than a kick.

[waya]

Once in a while I may find myself using an ankle lock to break, mostly though with the legs I stick to kicks for maximum damage.
The majority of the locks I use are breaking techniques that can be controlled into a restraint hold if the situation calls for it.
You have a point about the leverage for a wrist break. Without working on thos techniques often, it can be very hard to get, especially since one slight mistake in how you move the wrist takes it offline for a break and the hold can be countered fairly easily, even though you will probably still hyperextend the wrist joint.

Alot of the wrist holds I use tangle the hand in my own clothing, making it easier to manipulate. If my arm is grabbed in some manner, I'd more likely counter that with strikes and a throw even if the throw starts with a counter lock. That to me is faster than trying to make sure I am holding the wrist correctly for breaking it, especially if there is a chance of more than one attacker.

Rob

[Freeform]

Would you use the same techniques in your locks and breaking techniques?

Mostly locks and breaks are the same techniques, though you can get away with more on purely breaking techniques because you don't have to secure a position and ensure your in a defendable position. Some breaks you can even do using only one arm, some locks end that way but I won't want to try a restraint using only one arm. Liable to get kicked in!

Thanx

[Thomas Vince]

We must use "common sense" in " Self Defense" and we can practice with safety. I can tell by tonality and body movement if the practictioner has control or not of the opponent.
With Love,

[pgm316]

Thanks Waya and Freeform for the lock info. I like what Waya said about putting somebody in a wrist lock then hitting them. I think this is the way forward.

I know somebody (only slightly, not all my friends are lunatics!) that was attacked in a pub, somebody tried to strangle him. The victim doesn’t do martial arts, but is a good “street fighter”. He got hold of the attackers little finger and took the strangle off, then snapped the finger. Attacker looked pretty sick at this point, worse after a left hook put him on the floor!

I was impressed with how simple and effective it was. I think sometimes its easy to get too complicated with locks. I’ve been trying to concentrate on simple effective moves that I’m confident I could use. Such as fingers. The “figure four” arm lock that feels like it will dislocate an elbow with ease or just put them on the floor. I think the easiest way to break the arm if you have somebody on the ground, is to put your knee behind their elbow and both hands round their wrist, yank away! :)

[Freeform]

If you do that make sure your pinning their body with the other knee/shin of extra leverage.

[Darzeka]

Use the locks to throw people.
When a lock is applied everyone moves to release it. Use this movement to put them on the ground. All you need do is stop one foot from moving so they can't regain balance and then they are on the floor and you hopefully on top with a lock still in place or maybe holding a limp arm.

I especially like this theory with the wrist lock, you can land on the wrist and use the impact to break it.

On break the leg, target the knee, its actually not that hard to break it. just sit on it while holding the ankle. This works well if someone bearhugs you from behind or tries something where they at your back (full nelson hold).

SMALL JOINT MANIPULATION!!!!
Fingers and toes are among the easiest thing to break and the pain is intense enough to stop a fight. Besides you do anything with a hand with a broken finger.

[ColdFire]

Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to go to his class!!!

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Pain just plain hurts. If you're gonna suffer more pain in class than you would on the street, what's the point?

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Pain just plain hurts. If you're gonna suffer more pain in class than you would on the street, what's the point?

So you can learn to ignore it? As in the old addage 'train hard, fight easy'. Not that I'm advocating deliberately inflicting pain as part of your training regime. But I think the endurance of some pain is an important part of a martial artist's development. Injury on the other hand should be just plain avoided.

Mike

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Hmm...I can see the logic there, I can also see that it would put off a fair number of people who want to learn without pain.

Pain is generally fairly linked to injury, although I'll give that it isn't always, its hard to have one without risking the other.

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by ckdstudent
Hmm...I can see the logic there, I can also see that it would put off a fair number of people who want to learn without pain.



Yes, pain can put people off. But I'm the last person to get new people into the dojo and just cause them pain. I believe martial arts should be inclusive, by which I mean that people of all ages and physical abilities should be able to train. The idea of weeding out the 'weak', leaving only the real tough nuts is abhorent to me. But over time, ordinary people can become progressively more stoic so that eventually they turn into the 'tough nuts'. Its a process that will take several years for most people.


Pain is generally fairly linked to injury, although I'll give that it isn't always, its hard to have one without risking the other.


Not necessarily, although I'll give that in the normal scheme of things that is the case. A superficial surface wound can actually be more painful than a deep penetrating blow, due to the complex nature of the nervous system. Also, if you're familiar with the vital points of the human body you can cause fantastic amounts of pain (on most people) without any lasting injury.

All I'm really suggesting is that the normal knocks and scrapes that one picks up in training actually serve a useful purpose - to make you more stoic. It will be even more useful for students to put themselves through an even more taxing regime. As a sensei though, I see it as my role to show students where the path lies - not to force them to walk along it. Its up to them to decide how far they want to go - everyone has their own personal limits and that's fine.

I'll take myself as an example. For a year I trained in a club that used pretty heavy contact in sparring. When it came time for sparring I deliberately sought out the people I really didn't want to train with - the ugly, mean looking bruisers. Every week I came home with a bloody nose and a fat lip. Nobody forced me to do that and I wouldn't want to train like that all the time, but the result of such training is that if I get hit in the face now I shrug it off and get on with the job in hand. Contrast that with the untrained reaction (of most people) of covering their face with their hands and crying for their mam. Which is more useful in a violent confrontation? (BTW, I'm not trying to make myself sound big and tough, I realise I'm a bit of a girls' blouse when you look at some people's training regimes).

Ultimately, a martial artist needs strong spirit more than they need good technique. Endurance of discomfort and pain is one sure way of building spirit in my experience.

Mike

[waya]

Ultimately, a martial artist needs strong spirit more than they need good technique. Endurance of discomfort and pain is one sure way of building spirit in my experience.

I agree Mike, pain and discomfort are the two hardest things for any person to deal with. Modern society naturally shys away from anything too difficult that may upset some small comfort zone.

Rob

[morphus]

Mikes general theory is v.good, i differe' a little, but generally believe that a person/student can and will tell you they've 'had enough'(pain etc) as long as its been made clear thats what they are to do and that its not a bad thing that they perhaps, can't take as much as the next person.:)

[waya]

Experiencing moderated, small amounts of pain conditions the body to one much larger event. Some people think that pain conditioning has to be torture, but it's not at all unlike using a makiwara. You strike a makiwara lightly many times to condition for much harder hits in an actual fight. The same with experiencing small amounts of pain in class performing techniques that enable you to handle a harder hit later.

Rob

[ladyhawk]

All right, I think we all can agree that martial arts training is mostly a physical activity and that everyone has varying degrees of pain tolerance.

Now, I'm not a martial masochist but I do know that the best way for me to train and learn is by seeing, doing and "feeling". This learning method requires that I experience a certain amount of various physical sensations (levels of pain) for me to effectively
understand the mechanics of the techniques in my arsenal so that I can better adapt them to real life situations.

Some physical sensations are beneficial to experience and learn from while training in a controlled environment to better prepare me to manage and control my body in a real life confrontation so hopefully I'm less vulnerable.

Having the air knocked out of me has reinforced my breath control and has taught me how to alleviate the stress of catching my breath and avoid that momentary feeling of panic.

Taking a bone jarring fall is unnerving for anyone but if you know how to do it and what to expect you'll be able to recover from it more quickly.

Taking a hit allows me to learn how to accommodate the pain so that I can continue to defend myself.

All of the physical sensations that rock my world during training are essential to my survival.

[Freeform]

Its all about conditioning your body (and brain) to the shock of actual physical trauma. You don't have to whacking lumps out of each other, like Waya's makiwara analogy.

I feel that the 'taking pain' thing is akin to the 'I don't need groundwork' ideology. You do, because there's always somebody better.

Thanx

[Thomas Vince]

"Pain is weakness leaving your body."

[TkdWarrior]

Thomas : "Pain is weakness leaving your body."

Define Pain n weakness...

[energyboost]

"Pain is weakness leaving your body."

i like that

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Pain is just pain. Its nerve impulses firing and warning you that are currently being damaged/risking damage. There is nothing macho about ignoring warnings. Would you drive through a sign saying cliff edge, or ignore a red light? Would you carry on at 70mph round a corner marked as a hairpin bend?

Some people do. They get hurt.

[Andy Murray]

As we approach the point of pain, do we not find our physical limitations?

Surely pain can be corrective, highlighting improvement required in technique?

[TkdWarrior]

so how much is rite to say "pain is weakness leaving the body"??
-TkdWarrior-

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Feeling pain when you perform a technique suggests that something is very wrong with that technique. Adapt it or relearn it until it doesn't hurt.

[stump]

<<<Feeling pain when you perform a technique suggests that something is very wrong with that technique. Adapt it or relearn it until it doesn't hurt.>>>


Point taken, but I think people are talking about learning to take it when it's sent your way, not when you cause it to yourself. I doubt a boxer would last long if they couldn't take a smack. Also if your concentration is thrown after you've been hit in a fight, you're not going to have too much luck defending yourself.

What do you think?

[pgm316]

I think a lot of depends on your goals. If you want to become a good fighter you have to train realistically and theres no doubt along the way you will get hurt and definitely feel pain. You’ve just got to be sensible and know your own limitations, or else you will be frequently feeling a lot of excruciating pain and that’s not a good thing. Pain in varying degrees is all part of training realistically, you get used to it and also taking hits without going to pieces. It should make you more confident, you won’t be as scared if somebody threatens to hurt you! Just remember people playing games like football will often feel a lot more pain than we do, and we’re supposed to be the brave ones! ;)

Did anybody see the program on Discovery about martial art of “combat ki”, that program made me feel a bit sick. The martial art seemed to concentrate on taking hits! Sure theres more to it than that, but I don’t like seeing people standing there allowing themselves to be hit hard. I know you can take hits pretty hard to certain parts of the body but I can’t imagine it does you health any good!? One woman seemed to nearly pass out after some bloke kicked her stomach. Seemed crazy to me!

[johndoch]

I dont understand people who stand and take shots as if they are showing of some superior level of chi. Surely in a fight the shots that are likely to do the real damage and knock you on your backside are the ones you dont see coming. I would say to these people who take the shots to be blind folded and take shots from random angles and then see how good their control of chi really is.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I love the people who stand and take shots to show off their power. Makes it so much easier to practice techniques.

[Thomas Vince]

CKD is right on the mark when he says that if pain is felt in a technique than it needs to be relearned. In my younger days about 25 years ago, I would suspend plastic bleach bottles and other heavy bags filled with rocks, sand and water from ropes to the ceiling of my garage. I would swing the bags away from me and practice blocking with a down and out block like someone was kicking me. The idea was to stop the bag dead and prevent it from moving after the block. This taught me some valuable lessons about controlling heavier objects than the weight of my arms. It klilled my outer forearm and the radial nerve area. But I kept going until I was bruised and toughened, then I got smart, "when kicks comes no be there"!

As far as people standing there taking shots, well thats just dumb, however the reason that my dedicated adults come to specific classes is because they have learned to dish it out as well as take it. Taking shots is not just being tough, it is learning to be hit and not get so angry at the person you are fighting that it blinds your senses. The ancients practiced what we know as anger management in order to remain focused and effective with a clear mind. This is what made them and some of us today so deadly.

[energyboost]

"Pain is just pain. Its nerve impulses firing and warning you that are currently being damaged/risking damage. There is nothing macho about ignoring warnings. Would you drive through a sign saying cliff edge, or ignore a red light? Would you carry on at 70mph round a corner marked as a hairpin bend?"

i agree but warnings are just that warnings as skill increases you still consider the warnings but you learn to not be so subdued by them

[Sean O]

Thats true. Pain tolerance is more like not allowing pain to stop you from fighting back. Of course, if you throw a punch at someone and your wrist starts to hurt alot, regardless of how much pain tolerance you have, you shouldn't keep throwing punches! People only really have bad experiences with pain when they're stupid about it.

Sean O

[Sean O]

Oh yeah, this is off topic but how many posts until I'm considered a "member"? :)

Sean O

[Sean O]

Never mind, I just hit 30. Please continue with the topic :).

[alnesstsd]

If you are attacked in the street, bar, or wherever and you feel pain, would this not mean that your blocking techniques need to be addressed?

[zen_tiger_claw]

pain is an illusion of your senses, despair an illusion of your mind... and like despair, pain is felt when you hold on to no-pain.
if you want to rid yourself of pain, rid youself first of painlessness.

[Bon]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
That which is without pain is not learned.


I believe pain is on two levels, mental & physical.
There is physical pain you take in taking a leg kick, shot the kidneys or the abs, etc. Pain registers in your brain (mental) and you remember it, whichs helps you to better defend against receving a shot like that again and also in learning how to give that pain because the memory of it is so poignant and you realise how effective it is.

This is why I believe sparring MUST be full contact, because you learn how to defend, increase your pain threshold and give it out. By full contact I mean that pain must be felt, not full on bash the living crap out of each other, but just passing the other person's pain threshold to increase it.

Then there is also the mental pain of progress and improvment... we must overcome hurdles in order to progress and often when we are just about to give up, we get carried over to success. The hurdle/boundary IMO is pain in a mental & emotional way, which can be taxing on your self-esteem and confidence, but we persist through the face of adversity because we know when we achieve success, our self-esteem and confidence will soar and we seek yet another challenge with even greater pain this time.