Interesting Quote on KSW

[TXKukSoolBB]

In doing some research, I came across this quote and thought I would share it with the other KSW folks.

"If you could combine the skills of aikido throwing principles with jiu-jitsu locking and joint breaking techniques, add the skills of kobudo weaponry plus the devastating kicks of taekwondo, mix them with the punches of karate, then inject the intrinsic energy of ki and liberally sprinkle with the techniques and knowledge of alternative medicine/acupuncture, spend about two lifetimes co-relating them into a workable system of self defense and a pattern for living, you would have perhaps something that resembles the remarkable Korean art of Kuk Sool Won."

-Unknown author quoted in an article by Jane Hollander

[Hapkidoin P]

Not a KSWer..but is it just me that winces when I hear one Art being defined as the "best" of other Arts?

A lot of that going around,I guess.

[Legless_Marine]

Wouldn't that same summary apply to Hapkido?

In doing some research, I came across this quote and thought I would share it with the other KSW folks.

"If you could combine the skills of aikido throwing principles with jiu-jitsu locking and joint breaking techniques, add the skills of kobudo weaponry plus the devastating kicks of taekwondo, mix them with the punches of karate, then inject the intrinsic energy of ki and liberally sprinkle with the techniques and knowledge of alternative medicine/acupuncture, spend about two lifetimes co-relating them into a workable system of self defense and a pattern for living, you would have perhaps something that resembles the remarkable Korean art of Kuk Sool Won."

-Unknown author quoted in an article by Jane Hollander

[Wolf]

I love seeing quotes that put Kuk Sool in a good light like that. Though, I'd have to say yes, it probably could be applied to Hapkido too. I really would like to study with a Hapkido BB sometime so I can get an idea of what really is different between our curriculums.

[clemsontkd]

id like to combine the throwing in boxing, with the punches in tae kwon do, the striking of jujitsu, the weapon skills learned in hapkido, and the crane stance from kung fu modified to use a sword and create an ultimate martial art.

[baubin2]

Well, it's true and it's not true...

Yeah kuk sool's got a lot of stuff. Grappling, weapons, kicks/strikes, jointlocks, acrobatics, forms, sparring, meditation, and probably stuff I've forgotten to list or I'm not even really aware of yet because I just haven't had time to absorb it all. But we definitely place more emphasis on some things than others. We almost never meditate or do Ki stuff in class, for one thing. Nor sparring/grappling. We only learn a few weapons (though that's more because our instructors are all first degrees over here than anything) and kicks/strikes are mostly used in workouts, we very rarely go over the mechanics or practice in detail.

So yes, kuk sool's got a lot of stuff in it. But there's a lot of stuff in kuk sool that you don't need to know or do to advance through the ranks. And a lot of what you cover is probably up to the individual instructor (though that's just educated guesswork there, please shoot me down if I'm wrong). So if you want to learn everything kuk sool has to offer, you're going to have to put in the extra time and effort in order to do it.

BTW, I don't think the quote is so much saying kuk sool is the best, as it is saying that kuk sool is very well rounded and encompasses many different aspects of martial arts. All legitimate, well-taught martial arts are great. It just all depends on what you're looking for, what's in your area, and what you think of the instructor, the students, and the dojang.

[Wolf]

Well, it's true and it's not true...

Yeah kuk sool's got a lot of stuff. Grappling, weapons, kicks/strikes, jointlocks, acrobatics, forms, sparring, meditation, and probably stuff I've forgotten to list or I'm not even really aware of yet because I just haven't had time to absorb it all. But we definitely place more emphasis on some things than others. We almost never meditate or do Ki stuff in class, for one thing. Nor sparring/grappling. We only learn a few weapons (though that's more because our instructors are all first degrees over here than anything) and kicks/strikes are mostly used in workouts, we very rarely go over the mechanics or practice in detail.

So yes, kuk sool's got a lot of stuff in it. But there's a lot of stuff in kuk sool that you don't need to know or do to advance through the ranks. And a lot of what you cover is probably up to the individual instructor (though that's just educated guesswork there, please shoot me down if I'm wrong). So if you want to learn everything kuk sool has to offer, you're going to have to put in the extra time and effort in order to do it.

BTW, I don't think the quote is so much saying kuk sool is the best, as it is saying that kuk sool is very well rounded and encompasses many different aspects of martial arts. All legitimate, well-taught martial arts are great. It just all depends on what you're looking for, what's in your area, and what you think of the instructor, the students, and the dojang.

Be careful with comments like this. Some schools, do place a lot of emphasis on meditation and ki actually. I think I see what you mean with the weapons comment, and there are a lot of weapons to be learned in Kuk Sool. Here's a list of all I could find:
Juhl Bong (nunchaku)
Sam Juhl Bong (3 Sectional Staff)
Jung Bong (staff)
Dahn Bong (short stick)
Too Guhm (throwing knife)
Jung Guhm (sword, single and double)
Dahn Ssang Guhm (double short sword)
Dahn Do (knife)
Wol Do (halberd, moon knife)
Do Kki (battle axe)
Po Bak(Rope)
Ji Pang I (Cane)
Bu Chae (Fan)
Chang (Spear)
Gung Sool (Archery)

As for grappling and sparring, those definitly aren't big parts of KSW. Though, grappling is being added more and more. That's one of the things I like about kuk sool; the art is allowed to evolve to encompass new things.

As you said though, most of this is dependent on your instructor. We, for
instance, went into the mechanics of kicks/strikes very deeply with my instructor. So, in short, I think the quote is very correct as it refers to kuk sool on the whole, but many schools probably don't focus on every aspect of the art equally. I may have completely rehashed what you meant, but I wasn't quite clear. Sorry if that's the case.

[baubin2]

Dude, we get to learn battle axe? When, when!?!?!

[TXKukSoolBB]

BTW, I don't think the quote is so much saying kuk sool is the best, as it is saying that kuk sool is very well rounded and encompasses many different aspects of martial arts. All legitimate, well-taught martial arts are great. It just all depends on what you're looking for, what's in your area, and what you think of the instructor, the students, and the dojang.

That is what I took it to mean. Would I stand up and say that Kuk Sool is the best martial art/system out there...no way. That would show a huge ignorance on my part. Only a person who has spent a significant amount of time studing ALL the arts, could make that opinion. And even then...it would just be their opinion. I also wince when I here someone say that something (whatever it may be) is the be all end all. Even KSWers need to remember that it would take the better part of a full life to experience all of what Kuk Sool has to offer. That is why we call your 1st dan your second white belt (or in college terms...a Bachelors degree). I am in my 7th year of study. I have yet to get to some of the most exciting stuff since it comes in at later belts (3,4,5+) What I do know is that the things I'm taught now would be very ineffective without the broad foundation that was set during the training for my 1st dan. I recently had the chance to attend a blackbelt training with KJN Suh (6th dan) with 10 other students for a few hours. All I can say is wow! I thought to myself...why did they not tell me this earlier? And then I answered my own question. Without all of the training that I had put in over these last 7 years...I would not have appreciated it.

[ember]

That is what I took it to mean. Would I stand up and say that Kuk Sool is the best martial art/system out there...no way. That would show a huge ignorance on my part. Only a person who has spent a significant amount of time studing ALL the arts, could make that opinion. And even then...it would just be their opinion. I also wince when I here someone say that something (whatever it may be) is the be all end all. Even KSWers need to remember that it would take the better part of a full life to experience all of what Kuk Sool has to offer.

Ditto.


That is why we call your 1st dan your second white belt (or in college terms...a Bachelors degree).

I've never heard that term used before. When I was studying Shotokan Karate, I heard that the (1st degree) black belt just meant "master of the basics", and that one may be told when receiving it that "Now your training begins." So I guess it's the same concept...


I am in my 7th year of study. I have yet to get to some of the most exciting stuff since it comes in at later belts (3,4,5+) What I do know is that the things I'm taught now would be very ineffective without the broad foundation that was set during the training for my 1st dan. I recently had the chance to attend a blackbelt training with KJN Suh (6th dan) with 10 other students for a few hours. All I can say is wow! I thought to myself...why did they not tell me this earlier? And then I answered my own question. Without all of the training that I had put in over these last 7 years...I would not have appreciated it.

I have to say, I feel like I appreciated this seminar much more than the first two. I haven't been real sure what to make of Kuk Sa Nim, but given that people I respect, respect him, I've given him the benefit of the doubt. This time, I think I'm starting to glimpse what they see in him.

[ember]

<snip>

But we definitely place more emphasis on some things than others. We almost never meditate or do Ki stuff in class, for one thing. Nor sparring/grappling.

You do learn Ki Cho Cha Gi, right? We do that as part of our warmups every class, and often as part of the cool down as well.

I didn't learn the ki breathing meditation postures until my first seminar. For about a month or so, earlier this year, we ended nearly every class with a few minutes of the first three (lying down) positions, and I've seen it happen a time or two since then.

We do sparring for part of one class a week, most weeks.


<snip>

So yes, kuk sool's got a lot of stuff in it. But there's a lot of stuff in kuk sool that you don't need to know or do to advance through the ranks.

Ki Cho Cha Gi is required at every testing.

I don't think it was required to know them, but we did do the ki breathing meditations in my last black belt test. (Directions were provided for this part, as necessary.)


And a lot of what you cover is probably up to the individual instructor (though that's just educated guesswork there, please shoot me down if I'm wrong).


Yes and no. At our school the instructors and assistants have some latitude in what they teach. I've sometimes been given free reign to do a "private lesson," when the instructor to student ratio is low. But we are usually provided a bit of direction near the beginning of class, and sometimes additional instructions between activities. Even the "lead" instructor is sometimes / often acting according to guidance provided by Kwan Jang Nim.


So if you want to learn everything kuk sool has to offer, you're going to have to put in the extra time and effort in order to do it.
<snip>


There is definitely truth to that. We need more practice! :) See the thread on practicing alone if you need ideas for what to do.

[baubin2]

We do the Ki stuff sometimes, just not often. I know Ki Cho Cha Gi, more or less, and the meditation postures, we just don't do it every lesson. Or every other lesson. I think this year we're going to concentrate on that sort of thing more though.

We do complain about running out of time during practice a lot though; we tend to run over and there's been some talk of wishing we could extend practice to 2 hours from 1.5. Maybe that's got something to do with it :)

[TXKukSoolBB]

Ditto.



I've never heard that term used before. When I was studying Shotokan Karate, I heard that the (1st degree) black belt just meant "master of the basics", and that one may be told when receiving it that "Now your training begins." So I guess it's the same concept...



It has been told to me that your 1st degree is like your bachelor's degree, the 3rd degree would equate a Master's Degree and the 5th degree (Master's Level) would be considered a PhD. I heard that from a Sa Ba Nim at the 2003 Tournament in Houston. I can not find anywhere that it is written down...so it may just be his opinion. All I know is that it will take me longer to earn my second degree blackbelt that it did for me to earn my Masters Degree from the local University. :)

[baubin2]

You've been going seven years, right? How much longer until you get your second degree?

[TXKukSoolBB]

You've been going seven years, right? How much longer until you get your second degree?

It will depend on when I am recommended for promotion by my school owner. I would assume 2006. Keep in mind...over those seven years I would take a month off here and there. It was either from my children being born or from injuries (I enjoy high falls too much and have had two seperated shoulders in the past 3 years.) I missed 3 BB testings due to pulling myself out of them as I did not feel prepared. If I could not do all of my techniques...at random...I would not go test. That was just my own personal standard. Also, my school will not allow you to start testing for second dan until 2 years after your 1st dan promotion. The testing cycle for Kyo Sa Nim is then two years. It sounds long...but it goes by fast. There is so much to learn.

[AZeitung]

As for grappling and sparring, those definitly aren't big parts of KSW. Though, grappling is being added more and more. That's one of the things I like about kuk sool; the art is allowed to evolve to encompass new things.

As for grappling, aside from actual live grappling, which never seems to be required to advance through the ranks, it seems like there are ground techniques in the formal curriculum. There was a blackbelt set (or possibly black brown, I don't remember) that I saw at the beginning of the year that seemed to be groundwork.

I think the one really big flaw with Kuk Sool is that it doesn't have any formal way of incorporating live grappling/sparring in the curriculum, like Judo does in the form of randori. And whenever live grappling or sparring is done, people never really seem to use Kuk Sool techniques. Instead I've used things that our blackbelts have learned in wrestling, or things that I suspect are taken from either Brazilian Jiujutsu or Judo. Ultimately, I think there's a lack of faith in the system, for some reason, and the assumption that certain techniques aren't effective, which I'm beginning to suspect is less true after studying other arts.

[davefly76]

There was a blackbelt set (or possibly black brown, I don't remember) that I saw at the beginning of the year that seemed to be groundwork.


you're thinking of mohk jo lu ki's

:)

dave KSN

[KSWarrior]

They but this is only true if you can find a real Kuk Sool Practitioner to teach you this. I can't think of any of the new master that know half of what kuk sool offers!

[zac_duncan]

I love seeing quotes that put Kuk Sool in a good light like that. Though, I'd have to say yes, it probably could be applied to Hapkido too. I really would like to study with a Hapkido BB sometime so I can get an idea of what really is different between our curriculums.

The difference is forms and the brand name. Seriously.

No offense to KSW, but it's hapkido in a different wrapper. I said this once beofe on here, but I finished all of the under blackbelt cirriculum in KSW and I have a BB in hapkido. KSW is hapkido, years ago, KSW was called KSW Hapkido.


Edit - oh and a few more weapons.

[KSWDragon]

The difference is forms and the brand name. Seriously.

No offense to KSW, but it's hapkido in a different wrapper. I said this once beofe on here, but I finished all of the under blackbelt cirriculum in KSW and I have a BB in hapkido. KSW is hapkido, years ago, KSW was called KSW Hapkido.


Edit - oh and a few more weapons.

blah blah...hear it all the time! I've done hapkido as well and there are many differences that I really can't be bothered writing!

KSW is a study of many korean arts under one art and so there are gonna be similar techniques involved. There's only so many ways to joint lock someone. I was training with a jujitsu guy the other week and he claimed my techniques were jujitsu techniques! They're all gonna be similar in some way!

....and why did you feel the need to bring that to our attention again if you've already mentioned it before? :confused:

[zac_duncan]

I had no intention of starting an argument, but whatever.


blah blah...hear it all the time! I've done hapkido as well and there are many differences that I really can't be bothered writing!

Really? How long did you study hapkido and what were these differences? You can't be bothered writing them, but you're happy to tell me I'm wrong. Convenient. Also, why do you think you hear this all the time? Could it be because it's the truth?

KSW is a study of many korean arts under one art and so there are gonna be similar techniques involved. There's only so many ways to joint lock someone. I was training with a jujitsu guy the other week and he claimed my techniques were jujitsu techniques! They're all gonna be similar in some way!

Well, being that hapkido is descended from japanese jujitsu, it's no wonder your techniques look an awful lot like japanese jujitsu. You got them from HKD and HKD got them from JJJ. In a way, he's right.

....and why did you feel the need to bring that to our attention again if you've already mentioned it before? :confused:

Because KSWPaul mentioned that he'd like to know how similar the techniques actually are. As I quoted above:

Though, I'd have to say yes, it probably could be applied to Hapkido too. I really would like to study with a Hapkido BB sometime so I can get an idea of what really is different between our curriculums.

That's why I posted it.



Look, I have no problem with KSW. I like the system. But for the most part KSW is hapkido. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but it doesn't mean it's not true. As I said, you have forms that don't exist in hapkido and you have more weapons than exist in hapkido, but your technical cirriculum is hapkido.


edited for spelling.

[KSWDragon]

I had no intention of starting an argument, but whatever.




Really? How long did you study hapkido and what were these differences? You can't be bothered writing them, but you're happy to tell me I'm wrong. Convenient. Also, why do you think you hear this all the time? Could it be because it's the truth?



Well, being that hapkido is descended from japanese jujitsu, it's no wonder your techniques look an awful lot like japanese jujitsu. You got them from HKD and HKD got them from JJJ. In a way, he's right.



Because KSWPaul mentioned that he'd like to know how similar the techniques actually are. As I quoted above:



That's why I posted it.



Look, I have no problem with KSW. I like the system. But for the most part KSW is hapkido. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but it doesn't mean it's not true. As I said, you have forms that don't exist in hapkido and you have more weapons than exist in hapkido, but your technical cirriculum is hapkido.


edited for spelling.

okay......i'm a bit drunk just now so if this doesn't make sense ignore me!

I am not denying that Hapkido and KSW are similar! They are and like you said KSWarrior it used to be called Kuk Sool Hapkido! I'm just sick of people saying that KSW is the same as hapkido! You have already admitted that there are forms and weapons that are not in hapkido - therefore it is not the same!

I trained in Hapkido for 3 years whilst at Uni in England but continued to train in KSW by travelling 100 miles there and back twice weekly!

It just botheres me because its as if people dismiss KSW as a "copy art"! It may be but I don''t really care! It has differences to KSW. I apologise as I did not read KSWPaul's post about wanting to train in Hapkido! I thought you were just another of many Hapkido practictioners that wish to state that KSW is a copy of Hapkido! I am a memeber of several other MA forums and this comes up again and again! I don't wish to get into an argument either! Just that KSW does have differences to Hapkido - I suspect that In Hyuk Suh trained with Hapkido masters and incoperated them into KSW!

i already have doubts about the true history of KSW but remain that it is a very comprehensive MA and that's why I study it!

[Wolf]

KSW and Hapkido, from what I've seen are very similar, in not almost identical, in their techniques (again this is just what I've seen). As I understand the history though, this doesn't make it a "copy art." From what I've read, Hapkido in it's most widespread and current form was started about the same time as KSW. I thought they were both just started by people who had studied similar things, but went on and made their own styles.

[zac_duncan]

OK, I don't want to be misunderstood, here. I'm not claiming that KSW is a "copy" of hapkido, not at all. Like I've said there are weapons and forms that hapkido doesn't have. What I am saying is that KSW's early cirriculum, up through 1st dan and all the 2nd and 3rd dan techniques I've seen come directly from hapkido. Pick a set, Sohn Mok Soo, Di Eu Bok Su, Too Ki, Gok Da Bub, they're techniques from hapkido.

Higher level techniques are probably from somewhere else. The palm striking techniques that Master Simms so often demonstrates don't look like any HKD I've seen.

I thought they were both just started by people who had studied similar things, but went on and made their own styles.

That's an easy assumption to make, however, if you looked at the history of hapkido, you'd see that hapkido's core techniques were imported from Japan by a man named Choi Yong Sool. One of his earlier students Ji Han Jae moved to Seoul and taught most of the hapkido masters out there today. He also created some sets of techniques that appear in KSW (cane techniques, dan bong techniques, I believe the rope techniques were his invention as well).

Being that KSW has these techniques, it stands to reason that your grandmaster studied with Ji or one of his students for some time. How else would these techniques have come into your system? If you need more more evidence, remember than Kuk Sa Nim's brother is the head of one of the major Korean hapkido federations.


So, basically, I'm saying that the technical similarities between HKD and KSW aren't just a coincidence of two people studying similar arts and coming up with their own things. Rather KSW is a synthesis of something that In Hyuk Suh knows and hapkido.

I'm not trying to disparage KSW by saying that it consists primarily of HKD techniques. I even practice the KSW hyungs on occasion. I'll be frank though, I do get a little annoyed that systems like KSW and Hwarangdo claim ancient korean roots while failing to mention that a large chunk of their cirriculum is from hapkido. I mean, it's great that they've added more to their systems, more power to them, but how about showing a little respect for hapkido and admitting where your techniques come from?

[Wolf]

Fair enough. Thanks for the input.

[AZeitung]

I had heard that In Sun Seo had studied with GM Choi - at least, I think that's what I read.

Anyway, Kuk Sa Nim dates the beginning of Kuk Sool Won in 1958 or something, right? That would make him around 20 or so when he became GM. Doesn't that seem a little young?

[KukSool]

From what I've read, they all studied under GM Choi at the same time (including Hwa Rang Do's Dr. Lee), so the similarities are only natural. The 3 arts (hapkido, kuk sool & hwarangdo) are all based on what was learned from GM Choi.

[zac_duncan]

From what I've read, they all studied under GM Choi at the same time (including Hwa Rang Do's Dr. Lee), so the similarities are only natural. The 3 arts (hapkido, kuk sool & hwarangdo) are all based on what was learned from GM Choi.

That's possible, but it does seem odd that both KSW and Hwarangdo have techniques which Ji invented. Also, technically KSW is closer to Ji's flavor than Choi's.

Perhaps there was some sharing of material between peers or perhaps GM Suh and Lee studied with Ji Han Jae, regardless, there are a lot of commonalities between Ji's hapkido and KSW.

Just FYI for those who don't know, Ji Han Jae is still alive.

[AZeitung]

That's actually what I was thinking as well, because from what I've heard, the only kicks present in Choi's hapkido were below the waist. As I understand it, he basically taught Jujitsu exactly as he had learned it, without any of the things we know of as unique to Hapkido.

I would believe that Suh, or his brothers, studied under Choi, but that seems insufficientm since there are similarities to Ji's Hapkido.

Does Ji Han Jae have an e-mail address? :D

[zac_duncan]

The kicking is definitely something that indicates that KSW is at least partly based in Ji's teaching. The dan bong, cane and rope techniques are equally telling. There are cane techniques in japanese jujitsu, but most of them have a sword-like characteristic. They're more focused on striking than locking. Akido does throw with the staff, but it's throws are very different.

Here's the web site for Ji Han Jae's HKD org.
http://www.sinmoohapkido.com/

I think if you look at the technical similarities between KSW and Ji-line hapkido, it's pretty hard to deny that Ji Han Jae's hapkido is in there.