Black/White Gi's?

[hunnysan]

Now, i know why black gi's came about in Kenpo karate and how it was so you can see that Kenpo was not like any other karate..well that's what i heard..

My question is...now why is it some schools have the White gi, but then once you achieve your brown belt, then you have to wear black gi's...i mean shouldn't u start wearing black gi's??? Or has this how kenpo has always been, because some schools i've seen everyone just wears black and some i've seen just wear white...i know not one way is correct, but what's the purpose of holding it back until you reach brown belt..?? Is this uncommon in Kenpo or is it in actuality very common in Kenpo??

DJ hunny

[Tigermoth]

Every school is different. Our instructor gave us a choice of practice gis. All but one have chosen black. I like black better because they don't show dirt as easily and they're not see-through. However we are not allowed to wear different colored(red/blue...) gi tops. That is reserved for black belts. It all depends on the instructor and the type of Kenpo. You are right about the black gi and old kenpo though. There are reasons for leaning toward black but I don't think there are any bylaws about it.

[Satori81]

As far as I know, the concept of the "Colored Gi" stems from practicality. When you walk into a school, it is much easier to spot the instructor if his uniform is different than the students.

Also, a black uniform is much cleaner looking, and doesn't show sweat or other stains. Because a higher ranking student will often be teaching class, it makes sense to allow them to wear a "nicer" looking uniform in order to look more presentable.

Keep in mind that white gis are typically more available and cheaper, and that making a student wait for a black gi is also a way of saving them money until they are proven to be committed.

May you achieve
Satori

[hunnysan]

oh ok..that makes sense, i've always preferred black gi's myself, and i hate waiting to wear one that's why...so black belts can choose to wear whatever color gi they want?? i never knew that...

[dbmasters]

I was told that William Chow went with the Black Gi for Kenpo because he felt it stood for "pain, trauma and death".

Dunno if that's true, but that's the story I got.

[John Bishop]

Traditionally, in the Hawaiian kenpo schools, black gi's were only worn by the instructors. Students wore white gi's. Mr. Parker kept this tradition in his system for black and brown belts. But many from his lineage have now abandoned his traditions, and use what ever gi color they want.
The first use of the back gi for all practitioners was around 1955, when Adriano Emperado adopted the black gi as the trademark uniform for Kajukenbo, to distinguish Kajukenbo from all the Japanese and Korean styles that wore white.

[KenpoDavid]

We switch at 5th kyu (blue) from white to black gi.

it is a real feeling of accomplishment. Halfway up the ladder!

also it makes the senior students stand out from the crowd.

[dbmasters]

We are all black Gi's from thew white belts on up...only belt colors are different...of course we don't require Gi's at all if people don't want to wear them...I like to, it gets me in the mood.

[hunnysan]

i agreee..wearing my gi gets me hyped up..and it is an acomplishment to get to wear black..i remember my instructor talking bout how hard it is for junior black belts to take it off and start anew..and how so many don't want too

[Kwajman]

The school I go to now wears black all the time. From white belt on up.

[Ceicei]

At the studio I go to, beginners wear white gi. By the time we reach blue belt, we can switch to blue gi if desired. Almost all females tend to switch to blue as soon as they can. By the time we reach brown, we can wear black gi.

- Ceicei

[Dave Humm]

Hey guys... Sorry for chirping in on this thread, I thought you might like to see an opinion of a 'third party' reading what you're saying about coloured gi.

First off I think it's only fair to explain that I don't study Kenpo, I am a Yudansha of Aikikai Aikido and additionally study the Japanese sword. My arts necessitate a 'standard' uniform thus, as a traditionalist I have opinions about gi colours and what they may represent.

As someone who read through this thread I'm left with a couple of mixed opinions. Firstly "Each to their own" if your schools require you to wear a particular scheme of gi so be it, and far be it for me to be over critical of something I'm neither involved in or know much (if anything) about however; as a Budoka of some 18 years I can't help raising the odd eyebrow when I meet or come into contact with people who wear a multitude of different gi.

May I ask; from within your own schools, where do you buy your respective gi from ? A supplier of your choice or, do you have to buy from your Sensei ?

I ask this question because one or two (prolly more than that unfortunately) Sensei I have met use this as a means of (unfairly IMHO) raising money for themselves. Essentially making their students buy particular gi at often over the odds prices. Couple that with (as you guys mention) changing the colour of the gi at a particular grade can, IMHO be a big source of revenue.

Additionally, I hold the opinion that instructors don't need to 'outwardly' look different to the rest of the students, it has been my experience that those who do wish to look different do so because of the ego, (which is my second opinion) I don't subscribe to the theory that making the Sensei (or senior students) look different helps beginners identify who's who - That's what coloured belts are for.

Any way, I'm not attempting to flame anyone, just expressing an opinion.

Regards to all

[KenpoDavid]

At our schools, new students get a free uniform (white). When they get to 5th kyu (usually about 2 yrs for an adult) they do have to buy their own heavyweight black gi. But the school doesn't make any money on it.


-D

[dsp921]

Dave, I can definitely see your points. I train in Kenpo and in the system that I do we wear a black gi from day one. There isn't any difference between the uniform an instructor wears and one a first day student wears. I think the multiple gi colors may have something to do with commercial schools trying to keep things interesting and give the new students/lower ranks something to work toward. Maybe something along the lines of all the colored belts. While there may be monetary and ego reasons behind the multiple stages of gi color I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and think (hope) that it is done to present a goal to students to keep them motivated. Now if the new gi color is required and must be bought through the school, well....

[Dave Humm]

...Don't get me wrong, the actual colour of the gi isn't an issue for me, and just because I wear a particular colour of gi/hakama/shitagi/obi/tabi etc doesn't mean that every school in the world has to do likewise; I do of course accept that every art will have its 'norm' however; what I find odd, is when the students/instructors themselves wear a multitude of colours, sometimes within the same gi, adorn said gi with a likewise multitude of badges and patches and then (sometimes) use this as an excuse to further the lining of their pockets.

I accept the point you make about encouragement and the goal setting which might be helped along the way with the notion that; reaching a particular grade means a student gets to wear a particular coloured gi, my only thought on this is... This is why the coloured belt system was first introduced into western Budo study By Kano Sensei, has this means of identification of grade etc lost its value?

Regards as always

[dsp921]

I understand you don't have an issue with what color is worn. Honestly, I really don't see a need for multiple gi colors within a system either. I'm not a big fan of the patch covered gi so I think we agree on this whole subject. You're right, all the different gi colors and patches that schools sell is a money-maker for the owner. The only thing to consider is a lot of a commercial school's ability to remain in business depends on kids. Kids need more things to look forward to, colored uniforms and patches give them that. If you put everyone in the same gi and only used white, green, brown and black belts, the casual student will get bored. Most need some feeling of accomplishment on a regular basis to stay interested. I would bet most schools would lose a large percentage of their students if they had to train two years or more in a white belt until getting to green. I think the colored belt system is still of value as the main identification of rank. The ability to wear a different color gi at some point is an added bonus for achieving a certain rank. In the end it's all about making money so the school can stay in business. Most school owners I know also have a "real" job, so they aren't getting rich off of this stuff, they do it to stay open so they can continue to teach. I just try to cut them a little slack, they aren't all greedy.
For me, and you it would seem, the training is the important part, not the color of the gi or the belt.

[hunnysan]

I think allowing a student to only buy products from their instructors is jus wrong. And it is probably for money...but there is the exception that, sometimes the instructor prefers their students to buy from them is because it could be cheaper. For an instructor to be able to buy products like gi's and sparring at a whole sale price, they can turn it around and sell it for bout the same price if not cheaper for the student. Plus around my area, not many martial art stores are around that sell sparring gear i prefer..so i might have to buy it off-line..then i'd have to pay shipping..same goes for the uniform...My instructor advises us to buy from her cuz it's cheaper..but she could care less if u bought somewhere else...as long as u didn't get ripped off...

Hunnysan
DJ Hunny

[Pacificshore]

In my experience, back in my earlier years of training, I would buy my uniforms and gear from my instructor as a way to support our club. Plus, my instructor wasn't the type to mark things up, so we paid him what it originally cost him. Now, moving light years forward ;), I would still buy gear from my home dojo as a means of supporting the organization. Sure I get an instructor's price and then its up to me to charge my students what I think is fair. Depending on what it is they are buying, really depends on how much I want to charge them. If for example, the item is a school t-shirt, then I'll charge what the less than what it would cost to buy a similar brand t-shirt w/design off the rack at a retail store, but a lil more than what I will get it for at my instructor's price. The "profit" margin on my end is actually very nominal, and will only allow me to make additional purchases of t-shirts when needed.

If they are larger items such as gear bags, custom weapons, I'll just charge them what the main dojo's student prices are. As for anything else, then it's what I can get them for cost plus shipping.

All in all, there really is no profit being made on my end as an instructor. Then again, I'm not a commercial karate instructor that has overhead to worry about :)

[John Bishop]

First off I think it's only fair to explain that I don't study Kenpo, I am a Yudansha of Aikikai Aikido and additionally study the Japanese sword. My arts necessitate a 'standard' uniform thus, as a traditionalist I have opinions about gi colours and what they may represent.

As someone who read through this thread I'm left with a couple of mixed opinions. Firstly "Each to their own" if your schools require you to wear a particular scheme of gi so be it, and far be it for me to be over critical of something I'm neither involved in or know much (if anything) about however; as a Budoka of some 18 years I can't help raising the odd eyebrow when I meet or come into contact with people who wear a multitude of different gi.

Additionally, I hold the opinion that instructors don't need to 'outwardly' look different to the rest of the students, it has been my experience that those who do wish to look different do so because of the ego, (which is my second opinion) I don't subscribe to the theory that making the Sensei (or senior students) look different helps beginners identify who's who - That's what coloured belts are for.



I'm not totally familiar with the "AikiKai" traditions. But is it not true that in some or most aikido systems students wear plain white gi's, and instructors and/or black belts are allowed to wear hakama? And hakama colors can also vary?

[dsp921]

I'm not totally familiar with the "AikiKai" traditions. But is it not true that in some or most aikido systems students wear plain white gi's, and instructors and/or black belts are allowed to wear hakama? And hakama colors can also vary?

That's a good point. There are several uniform combinations shown on the website in Dave's signature. If they are using the traditional Aikido belt system where there are no colored belts and their uniforms are the indication of rank I can understand. Otherwise it is no more necessary than the multiple gi colors used by other systems.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Dogi.

There is no Japanese word "Gi". If you're going to use Japanese terminology, you really ought to use correct Japanese. It reflects upon your attitude toward training as a whole - do you study the technique kote gaeshi (for example), or "that wrist-twist thing".

Coloured belts. Coloured dogi. Other garments; hakama, hoi, tabi... even hachimaki! You do whatever your style dictates. It may be redundant to point out, but your organisation's choices of uniform can reveal a lot about the way the organisation "thinks".

For any uniform, I would suggest that the design serves just a few purposes; allows a participant as great a range of movement as the activity requires, covers a participant for modesty, protects a participant from harm, eg. friction burns (:eek:), standardises the appearance of students to allow easier comparison, identifies the group to which the student belongs.
Have I missed any?

There are many solutions, even for the most common roles (think how many answers there are for "what does a soldier wear?"), but they'll all need to match the criteria I listed above.

[Dave Humm]

I'm not totally familiar with the "AikiKai" traditions. But is it not true that in some or most aikido systems students wear plain white gi's, and instructors and/or black belts are allowed to wear hakama? And hakama colors can also vary? you’re absolutely correct in 90% of your statement.

The Aikikai statue (which I don't agree with I might add) only permits Yudansha (or Ikkyu if granted permission) to wear hakama, the colour of which must only be solid black or solid indigo.

Our Keikogi must be white. No coloured belts are worn. Now that said, I myself have seen all manor of variations worn (from people outside of the Aikikai) but, it does seem that students associated with their respective Hombu in Japan all seem to maintain the same keikogi format.

Speaking from my experiences within Aikido, I've seen instructors wearing very formal hakama (wool pinstripe types) with judo gi; these people have IMHO done this for one reason... To look different from everyone else. This is a very obvious 'visual' sign that these people want to look different when, in reality there isn't any need at all.... Other than personal gratification and Ego.

One or two people in this thread have already mentioned the "business" side of teaching, I think I must say that in these circumstances, I cannot argue with these people and their 'business practices' of selling their own equipment and clothing etc to their students, business is business as they say. I do however have issue with people who might otherwise 'rip people off'.

Thanks to everyone for the replies and opinions, it’s a pleasure to discuss topics like this with people from other arts without being seen (me) as a source of flaming (which wasn't/isn't the intention)

Regards as always

[Dave Humm]

That's a good point. There are several uniform combinations shown on the website in Dave's signature. If they are using the traditional Aikido belt system where there are no colored belts and their uniforms are the indication of rank I can understand. Otherwise it is no more necessary than the multiple gi colors used by other systems.You will note a three of things from my website...

1. Aikido is practiced using the statue regulations as per Hombu Dojo.

2. Batto-ho is practiced using the standard associated with study of the Japanese Sword, Hakama and Kendogi for all who study.

3. No one wears coloured belts other than Yudansha who naturally wear a black belt if they choose under their hakama.

The two standards are not intermixed between Aikido or Batto-ho.

"Several uniform combinations" is somewhat an over-statement, we have two regulations, one each for the two arts practiced within my dojo.

Just a side note for those looking at the Shotokan Karate link. I have nothing to do with this dojo, I merely rent the space from the owner of the dojo (The Karate Sensei) Therefore have nothing to do with their belt/Karategi regulations.

Regards as always

[Flashing Dagger]

Badges, patches and colored uniforms may be great for children, but I think the serious adult kenpo student would not rely on the ego-gratification of these outward things to provide motivation. Still there are reasons why kenpo uses the black uniform. Personally I took off any patches from my uniform about a year ago because I wanted my motivation to come from within myself.

The kenpo literature generally states that it was Mitose who introduced the wearing of the black gi for the upper students and instructors as a way of signifying authority. At that time only Judo and perhaps Karate were known by the general public and the kenpo guys in Honolulu wanted to distinguish themselves through the black uniform and say, "this is not Judo and this is not a sport". They wanted to distinguish themselves from the better known Japanese styles which used the color symbolism of Shinto (I think). Most of those early kenpo guys were street-fighters and trouble makers. They were not really interested in using martial arts to purify or better their own characters. I think that the black uniform also meant to say, "this is a war art". You could use kenpo to improve your character through hard training, concentration and so on, but that was not it's main purpose.

[KenpoDavid]

Lots of great info, thanks everyone. I wanted to add that our black uniforms taht we upgrade to at 5th kyu are also much heavier material than the white uniform you get for free when you jon the club. The techniques start to get a lot more aggressive at this level and the thinner material rips too easily.

[dbmasters]

Lots of great info, thanks everyone. I wanted to add that our black uniforms taht we upgrade to at 5th kyu are also much heavier material than the white uniform you get for free when you jon the club. The techniques start to get a lot more aggressive at this level and the thinner material rips too easily.

Yeah, I am starting to notice that myself, after constant washing and constant tugging, pulling and smacking for a few months, my light weight black gi is getting a bit tatered, it's likely my christmas present to myself will be a higher quality gi :)

[Dave Humm]

Cheers guys, thanks for the conversations...

Regards to everyone as always

[hunnysan]

wow I didn't think my topic would get such a response....espeically since it started off so slow..I like to see a lot of posts in this Kenpo forum....