What IS self defence to you? seems a mixed bag.

[jeffie7]

Looking at http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36815 it looks as if a lot of people believe sparing will help out with self defence. That is true but only to a point. and that point depends on what you call "self defence"

IMHO Self Defence is when someone grabs you or trys to rob/kill you.

FIGHTING is when both parties get into a fighting stance and go at it.

So in other words Sparing IMO will not greatly help when it comes to self defence, Chances are you will be jumped, hit from behind or grabed/choked/headlocked. So that would call for what I call self defence moves, breaking free, changing sides from defender to attacker. and submitting the other guy. there shouldnt be any time for anyone to drop into a back stance and throw a kick.

Fighting is something two people agree to. self defence is when you have no other options and the guy has a hold of you in some way.




Cliff Notes

What is your take on the term Self Defence?

My take is.

SELF DEFENCE= trying to stay out of a fight, having the other guy grab/choke/assult you in some way. response would be a takedown/submission move.

FIGHTING = two parties AGREE to fight and both have time to get into a fighting stance. IMO no true martial artest should ever AGREE to fight becuase martial arts is for SELF DEFENCE, not fighting.

[Melanie]

Yeah that makes sense I have to agree - but unless we constantly allow ourselves to be jumped by our fellow MAists (like Inspector Clouseau and Cato) we will never be able to "practice" a non-compliant technique properly as we aren't allowed normally to fishhook or eye-gouge our class mates! I know its a little extreme but I hope you get my point :)

[jeffie7]

Yeah that makes sense I have to agree - but unless we constantly allow ourselves to be jumped by our fellow MAists (like Inspector Clouseau and Cato) we will never be able to "practice" a non-compliant technique properly as we aren't allowed normally to fishhook or eye-gouge our class mates! I know its a little extreme but I hope you get my point :)

Agreed however you can't spar at 100% power either..... that is, if you want to keep students coming back.

chances are the person who jumps you is not a fighter and has no background other then some random bar fights, and will easily be caught off guard. so if they grab you and your counter is to grab them in the nuts "you can grab a partners belt/slap thigh" then perform whatever you need to do from there you CAN practice self defence style stuff.

[Fish Of Doom]

IMO, self defense is defending yourself, that's what it means right :D

also i agree with you fighting is not self defense, be it a fight between MAists, experienced brawlers or just plain haymaker flinging :P

PS: time to expand my knowledge, what's a fish-hook?

[Melanie]

Fish-Hook (my interpretation - in case I have been taught wrong!) is a finger pulling on the inside of the cheek. In the form of a hook, its extremely painful - but you do have to be careful 'cos you could have your finger bitten!

Quote taken from: http://www.grapplearts.com/Mixed-Martial-Arts-1.htm

The Ultimate Fighting Championship had introduced a form of fighting which it dubbed “no-holds-barred,” or NHB fighting. The first six Ultimate Fighting Championships had very few rules. In fact, there were no weight classes, no time limits or rounds, and no mandatory safety equipment. The only rules were that fighters could not eye gouge, bite, or fish hook, and fights could only end with a referee’s stoppage, knock out, or submission, which could be signified verbally, or by a “tap out,” where the fighter must tap the mat, or his opponent three times with his hand or foot to signify that he submits. The event took place in an octagonal cage, dubbed “The Octagon.”

[Fish Of Doom]

cool, thanks

[tellner]

Self defense is anything you do or learn - information, technique, ideas, tools, tactics, lifestyle choices and so on - for the purpose of making you less likely to be the victim of a violent crime.

[jeffie7]

PS: time to expand my knowledge, what's a fish-hook?

I always called a fish hook what you do after making whoppy with your girlfriend, you pull it out you smack her in a hooking motion with it.

Oh and yes you can dig your finger in the mouth. Something that should be done when you have no other options.

[Matt_Bernius]

Self defense is anything you do or learn - information, technique, ideas, tools, tactics, lifestyle choices and so on - for the purpose of making you less likely to be the victim of a violent crime.

Spot on Tellner.

chances are the person who jumps you is not a fighter and has no background other then some random bar fights, and will easily be caught off guard. so if they grab you and your counter is to grab them in the nuts "you can grab a partners belt/slap thigh" then perform whatever you need to do from there you CAN practice self defence style stuff.The problem is that you're simply thinking the bar fight scenario. Anyone whose worked in self defense understands that this is a really limited view. I'm not buying into the street fighter myth. But I am buying into the idea that the people that you have to worry about are those who want something from you and stack the deck (multiple people, weapons, etc) to ensure that they get it. Having had friends mugged at gun point, you develop a very different idea about what consitutes self defense when you get beyond speculation. See Tellner's post.

- Matt

[jeffie7]

Spot on Tellner.

The problem is that you're simply thinking the bar fight scenario. Anyone whose worked in self defense understands that this is a really limited view. I'm not buying into the street fighter myth. But I am buying into the idea that the people that you have to worry about are those who want something from you and stack the deck (multiple people, weapons, etc) to ensure that they get it. Having had friends mugged at gun point, you develop a very different idea about what consitutes self defense when you get beyond speculation. See Tellner's post.

- Matt

I'm saying that most fights where you will use your training will start in a form of someone coming up and attacking out of no where. the first attack is going to either be a blind punch or grab/choke. I do believe you should train for anything and everything, Our style even has training for handling an attacker with a knife and so on, you should train for everything,

however I still stand behind my thoughts that most all your fights will end up going to the ground at some point or another, and almost never start with 2 people in a fighting stance unless they both agree on what's about to happen.

So when someone ask me what's the best way to train for self defence? My answer will aways be work on breaking out of holds and submission moves.

No doubt by far the best thing to do would be to cover anything and everything. From ground work, break falls, take downs, and of course sparing. even better yet, sparing that leads to take downs and then subbmissons! you can't beat that! =)

[medi]

SELF DEFENCE= trying to stay out of a fight, having the other guy grab/choke/assult you in some way. response would be a takedown/submission move.

FIGHTING = two parties AGREE to fight and both have time to get into a fighting stance. IMO no true martial artest should ever AGREE to fight becuase martial arts is for SELF DEFENCE, not fighting.


Firstly, why should the response to having someone grab/choke/assault you be a "takedown/submission move". Are you saying no one throws punches in a real fight? Elbows? Knees? Kicks? You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about the 'format' of an assault.

Seccondly sparring also involves practicing techniques which off balance your opponent - in almost every art. So a big part of what you're learning is how to recover your stance and balance from being shoved/hit or whatever.

Lastly, is there a better way to practice submission moves than sparring them?

[medi]

Our style even has training for handling an attacker with a knife and so on,


X block?

[salami]

Good thread :)

x-block is good for some violent attack, not so good for defending against some kali psycho(very rare, if not non-existant if you ask me)

Someone mentioned avoiding confrontations is a part of self defense. Where can you learn such skills? I think this is EXTREMELY important, because small thing can turn in to big things in a blink of an eye, if you are dealing with a conflict the wrong way.

p.s. I found http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com a real eye opener, very interesting stuff, if you can stand the guy's writing style.

[alister]

X Blocks as knife defences suck - if you're being taught this, you're gonna get seriously stabbed. Look elsewhere.

Agree completely with most of the sentiments on SD vs sparring, but I'd say the two can work in tandem - that's what any realistic system should be about - adapting what you know to work with the situation you're given.

[salami]

I'm thinking of buying some of his products, like:

-------------------------
#1 Safe in the Street (VHS) $19
A must see for your personal safety and that of anyone you care about. The original and complete awareness training film. This video shows the process of violent crime and what it looks like while developing. Then it shows you the simple, easy and non-violent steps you can take to foil it before the attack occurs. It also show exactly how fast and savagely attacks do occur. Once you have seen this, there will be no doubt in your mind why avoidance is your best and safest response to the threat. (Note: This system has been used by law enforcement community relations departments, military trainers, self-defense instructors and personal safety programs around the world. The representation of crime and assaults are so realistic that while filming this video a passing police officer was convinced that he had seen an actual crime being committed)
-------------------------

sounds interesting, doesn't it? Price is ok...
Anyone seen some of this guy's stuff? Is it good?

(sorry if I look like some advertising punk, I just want to see wether some of you have some of his products, or if you can recommend me something else)

[philliphall]

Describing self defense as someone trying to grab/hold or rob you is far to narrow. A hell of a lot of incidents start with verbal aggression and you dont always have the option of getting away (or trying to get away will put you at an increased risk). Then sparring, the ability to unload in to someone when full of adrenaline, is more than a little useful. And what if someone is in my house and I feel I, or my family, are at risk ?. I think a pressure tested martial art would be very valuable. Why do you think martial arts are for self defence and not fighting anyway ?. I train to fight and I am sure I am not alone.

[oldshadow]

Self-defense is a legal term for the lawful use of force to protect yourself or another person. A verbal confrontation is just that and physical confrontation is a fight. In other words a fight is a fight, sometimes it is justified as self-defense legally or morally.

[medi]

I'm thinking of buying some of his products, like:

-------------------------
#1 Safe in the Street (VHS) $19
A must see for your personal safety and that of anyone you care about. The original and complete awareness training film. This video shows the process of violent crime and what it looks like while developing. Then it shows you the simple, easy and non-violent steps you can take to foil it before the attack occurs. It also show exactly how fast and savagely attacks do occur. Once you have seen this, there will be no doubt in your mind why avoidance is your best and safest response to the threat. (Note: This system has been used by law enforcement community relations departments, military trainers, self-defense instructors and personal safety programs around the world. The representation of crime and assaults are so realistic that while filming this video a passing police officer was convinced that he had seen an actual crime being committed)
-------------------------

sounds interesting, doesn't it? Price is ok...
Anyone seen some of this guy's stuff? Is it good?

(sorry if I look like some advertising punk, I just want to see wether some of you have some of his products, or if you can recommend me something else)



lol he's got a major chip on his shoulder about Filipino Knife Fighting, and he contradicts himself about 50 times. He starts off talking about how poor Filipino Martial Artists are at knife fighting because they haven't been in real fights (he of course has been in 'hundreds') then goes on to say it does actually work but you can't use it because you'll get arrested for use of unreasonable force.

Does this guy actually do any combat training or is the whole website an excuse to impart his secret knowledge of how dangerous 'da str33t' is?

[medi]

It gets even better

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

He is apparently the Guru of Knife Fighting Myths (particularly FMA 'myths', as he mentions them about 10 times).

To explode the myths he gives us the 'facts' in each case - the facts which, incidently are exactly what any FMA instructor will tell you pretty much on day 1, and what anyone with half a brain can work out anyway.



OMG KNIFE FIGHTING IS DANGEROUS!! NO WAY!!! AND TO THINK I ONLY STARTED LEARNING IT BECAUSE I LIKE SHINY OBJECTS!!!!

[salami]

lol, I take it you don't like him:)

[medi]

Nah, I was kidding. I think he's teh deadly.

[Slindsay]

Self defence is anything you do to stop another person from harming you physiacally.

Fighting is what you happens when one or more people want to physically impose their will on someone else and that other person resists.

A large amount of self defence involves fighting to my eyes, sure you can avoid a fight and verbally difuse a situation or even run away but to be honest I think most people understand how to do that a lot better than they know how to fight so I will stick with learning to fight for the purposes of my self dfence trainning.

In the example you gave of self defence in the first post i would say that if you take down or submit that guy you are fighting unless he just stands their and lets you.

Incidentally sparring CAN be fighting in my eye, two people want to hurt each other and go at it with a reasonable degree of contact, sure their are rules so it isn't teh d34dly str33t fight but it is a fight.

[oldshadow]

He is trying to sell his videos yes, but the things he says are true. As with all videos they are really only good if you are already skilled at what the video is teaching and looking to pick up a couple of things.

[tellner]

I have to note here that Marc MacYoung got an awful lot of his knife wisdom from Richard Dobson (featured on both of the knife tapes). Richard is an old-school Filipino and Indonesian stylist who has been doing it longer than most of us have been alive. He understands the limits of what is usually taught and has the highest respect for eskrima and silat properly done.

[medi]

I have to note here that Marc MacYoung got an awful lot of his knife wisdom from Richard Dobson (featured on both of the knife tapes). Richard is an old-school Filipino and Indonesian stylist who has been doing it longer than most of us have been alive. He understands the limits of what is usually taught and has the highest respect for eskrima and silat properly done.

That's why it's such a shame Marc can't respect the art he's teaching.

[Rebel Wado]

...So in other words Sparing IMO will not greatly help when it comes to self defence...

Self defense can be very complex, dealing not just with the physical factors of technique, size and strength, but also factors of surprise, environment, state of mind (both attacker and defender, and the never give up inner strength), experience, etc.

How much sparring helps in this is equally as complex. Sparring with realism, against realistic attacks and resistance, pressure testing, and such can help immensely if with the goal of RBSD and combined with actual vocational experience in the environment, such as what experience is gained from being a police officer or prison guard for many years.

Sparring in regards to beginners who may think of it as a game, probably does not help as much because it is too mechanical (not good resistance, energy, or timing), not with realism, and can put emphasis on building bad habits like turning your back (dropping your guard) in between rounds and not considering weapons or surprise or the environment as possible major factors involved in the outcome of combat.

X Blocks as knife defences suck - if you're being taught this, you're gonna get seriously stabbed. Look elsewhere.

I don't completely agree with this. X-block is just basic technique like punching from chamber. So if learning X-block then you are learning basic generic technique/movements.

The actual concept of X-block is to check the elbow and near the weapon (wrist/hand). Almost all the better knife counters attempt to control or neutralize the attacker's delivery system and this is mainly done through control of the elbow and weapon/hand. X-block (with the hands separated) is used in a lot of jiu-jitsu verse weapons including BJJ and is used in FMA... if you look at the concept of pinning/controlling elbow and weapon.

The concept goes beyond the use of the hands, because the elbow can be controlled using your forearm and against your body or wrapped, and the weapon controlled with hands or forearm or in other ways.

X-block is more a concept, the practical application does not look like the basic X-block in almost all cases.

However, I have used the basic X-block technique (with hands together trapping at the wrist) and it worked against a trained knife fighter allowing me to put him into Nikyo. He was not bigger or stronger than me and I caught him by surprise. This worked exactly ONE time. After that it NEVER worked again as he was no longer surprised by it and when I tried it I got effectively "killed" and "cut up" (this was training so I really wasn't killed).

Yes basic X-block sucks against anyone bigger and stronger or trained with knife.

[Slindsay]

X-Block just plain sucks, two hands to block one weapon? Your opponent has another 7 he can hit you with.

[Rebel Wado]

X-Block just plain sucks, two hands to block one weapon? Your opponent has another 7 he can hit you with.

Maybe 90 plus percent of knife counters suck (don't work against someone bigger and stronger than you attacking you aggressively) let alone actual trained knife fighters.

IMO, the main reason for the failure of knife counters is the lack of good control of the delivery systems (mainly the elbow) and not having the right timing to execute a technique to turn it into practical application. More or less, lack of experience that can help make it work.

Much of a real situation involves LUCK and everything else is just trying to stack the odds more in your favor.

The concepts or principles behind the X-block are sound for neutralizing delivery systems at the elbow and near weapon... I say look beyond the basic technique and into practical application.

Just my opinion.

[jeffie7]

This is turning into a good thread=)

With knifes just remember chances are you will get cut. getting cut is not bad. getting stabed is what you need to worry about.

Also I fully agree that you need to cover everything but, the thread I linked this one off of was about what would be the BEST thing to study for self defence. and IMO groundwork/submissions is. I would never go out with only that 1 tool in my tool box. However if I had to pick 1 I wouldnt think twice about it. since MOST not all but MOST fights end up on the ground.

Plus I have to add when I use the term sparing Im talking about basic fighting kinda like TKD, no grabing just stright up kicks/punches.

Bottom line the best selfdefense is having a tool box filled with everytool "style/form" you can fit in there =) but if picking only 1 I would have to go with groundwork.

[Matt_Bernius]

however I still stand behind my thoughts that most all your fights will end up going to the ground at some point or another, and almost never start with 2 people in a fighting stance unless they both agree on what's about to happen.We just don't have the statistics to prove that. The famed 90% one has long since been debunked as a biased statistic.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have some form of ground game. But anyone with any credible self defense experience (including BJJ people) will quickly admit that the ground is just about the last place you ever want to be in a self defense situation.

As many people have said many times here and in other places, you need to have a wide range of skills. And any excuse not to train all ranges just doesn't cut it. But priviliaging ground/grappling for self defense over striking just doesn't make sense.

The concepts or principles behind the X-block are sound for neutralizing delivery systems at the elbow and near weapon... I say look beyond the basic technique and into practical application.The biggest problem with the X block is that it doesn't get you off the weapon attack line. In fact it's completely based on staying on the weapon line (albiet aggressively entering). That makes it a good, last ditch, every thing else didn't work option, but a crappy first response in my opinion. Especially since it was originally intended for counter attacking a sword and not a knife. Can it work? Yes. Is it a good defense? Sorta. Is it the first that I'd show? No.

- Matt

[Rebel Wado]

The biggest problem with the X block is that it doesn't get you off the weapon attack line. In fact it's completely based on staying on the weapon line (albiet aggressively entering). That makes it a good, last ditch, every thing else didn't work option, but a crappy first response in my opinion. Especially since it was originally intended for counter attacking a sword and not a knife. Can it work? Yes. Is it a good defense? Sorta. Is it the first that I'd show? No.- Matt

Yeah, I agree that the x-block technique is very limited in application and pretty much does not work against anyone bigger and stronger or well trained.

As a concept, I like the X-block because it applies control of the elbow and of the weapon. As a concept it does not require that you stay on the weapon line, in fact I've found it works best if you get off the line of attack.

Of four of my preferred techniques to use in application of knife counter, one is iriminage (variant of it that pins the elbow), one is ikkyo (variant of it that traps the elbow with my forearm and body), one is x-block (variant of it that traps the elbow between my body and forearm and with other hand strikes/applies pressure to the back of the hand to disarm or drive the knife back into the throat or torso of the attacker), and one is x-block (variant similar to the checks used in FMA to pin the attacker's elbow to their body while striking the attacker). All the above variants attempt to get off the line of attack.

[tellner]

Also I fully agree that you need to cover everything but, the thread I linked this one off of was about what would be the BEST thing to study for self defence. and IMO groundwork/submissions is. I would never go out with only that 1 tool in my tool box. However if I had to pick 1 I wouldnt think twice about it. since MOST not all but MOST fights end up on the ground.

Plus I have to add when I use the term sparing Im talking about basic fighting kinda like TKD, no grabing just stright up kicks/punches.

Bottom line the best selfdefense is having a tool box filled with everytool "style/form" you can fit in there =) but if picking only 1 I would have to go with groundwork.

As has been pointed out, the 90% statistic is often quote but pretty much baseless. Groundwork is important, of course. But unless you are really good size makes even more of a difference in ground grappling than it does in stand up fighting. Other forms of ground fighting (and there are several) do not place as much of a premium on size and strength, but they are harder to find.

Since we are talking about self defense rather than winning a fight there can be advantages to a beginner in spending more time learning how to fight standing up. Escape is a very good outcome in many self defense situations. It is easier to run away if you are already standing and are unentangled. There is also a faster learning curve for most of us in learning to hit someone.

Your situation may vary. It depends on many things including the kinds of attacks you are likely to suffer, your physicality, the time and effort you have available to train and so on. I don't want to belittle ground grappling and other ground fighting, just to point out that there can be a world of difference between winning a submission MMA match and avoiding becoming a crime statistic.