Evaluating combat readiness

[tengu666]

How can you evaluate if you training will work in an actual brawl? What methods you use for evaluation? Do you have fully padded partner charging at you with the full contact blows and giving resistance? Maybe some other method? No matter which style you are into, just write your opinion.

[medi]

A friend of mine saw a Paul Vunak demo when he had his two assistants come at him wearing gloves, full padded armour, and motorbike helmets.

They came at him and he was ripping into them, knees, elbows, headbutts (seriously - on a motorbike helmet), the works. They were all fighting full contact.

That sounds like pretty much the ultimate way of testing yourself, but probably not something I'd do.

[Hannibal]

A friend of mine saw a Paul Vunak demo when he had his two assistants come at him wearing gloves, full padded armour, and motorbike helmets.

They came at him and he was ripping into them, knees, elbows, headbutts (seriously - on a motorbike helmet), the works. They were all fighting full contact.

That sounds like pretty much the ultimate way of testing yourself, but probably not something I'd do.

You should, it's really funny!

[Davey Bones]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32775&highlight=pressure+testing+your+art

We've done this one before :D

[slipthejab]

How can you evaluate if you training will work in an actual brawl? What methods you use for evaluation? Do you have fully padded partner charging at you with the full contact blows and giving resistance? Maybe some other method? No matter which style you are into, just write your opinion.

As close as you can get without having to get into a real brawl would be to use your techniques or as many of them as you can in an andrenalin stress situation.

You want to test the ability to use your skills in the midst of an adrenalin dump.

To effectively do this you will have had to have some kind of training to deal with your repsonse to your body's adrenalin dump and how you respond to that flood of adrenalin and all the things that it means for you body.

Of course there will be some limitation due to things like eye gouges, trachea grabs and kicks to the nuttage etc. Most places are not equipped properly to be able to train someone to go full force against an opponent. By full force I mean eye gouges, nut grabs etc.

Take a look at this site... interesting method for allowing the students to go full bore!

http://www.fastdefense.com/index.html

[tengu666]

Completely agree with you guys.

I've ordered full-contact padding suits - www.tonyblauer.com, I don't know if they are good for this, but they are damn expensive - 1000$ each (without tax). Tommorow I'm getting a delivery.

I think that the only way to test your combar readiness is to simulate the actual braws as real as possible. If you don't you are living in your little world. ;-)

I've written this before:

Emotional conditioning is essential. If you don't do that, you will just freeze and your mind will not access all the techniques you've learned. That's the situation we all head about. Adrenaline stress conditioning is the way to fix it. Look at the www.tonyblauer.com. In other words, only actual or near actual experience of the real fight can prepare you for the combat. Under the adrenal stress, you experience following effects:
- lose fine motoric skills (forget about the kata's finesses)
- tunnel effect (your vision is narrowed, and is focused, which is dangerous since his buddy can slam you from behind)
- limbs trembling
- dizziness (blood pressure drops because blood is going to the limbs - natural mechanism preparing you to fight or flight)
- mind tends to "lock up" on a target

You also must develop basic principles and skills like sensitivity and looseness, so you can act according to the attacks. Technique is at the third place. If you don't have previous two, forget about your technique!

You must be aware of this if you want to be successful in a fight. Only training method which encompasses physical, metal and emotinal aspects of fight (sanshin) can prepare you for the real thing. Unfortunately, 90% of Bujinkan schoools do only a technique. :-(

Guys, maybe this has been already written, but I'm new to this forum, sorry.

[tellner]

I've never tried Tony Blauer's suits, but the new RedMan Self Defense Instructor Suit is quite good.

[tekkengod]

I'd say what medi said. that Paul Vanuk guy sounds like hes got the right idea! although i don't think i'd favor head butting a bike helmet!!! that or just join an MMA competition.

[tengu666]

I've never tried Tony Blauer's suits, but the new RedMan Self Defense Instructor Suit is quite good.

Looks good. Do you know how much it costs?

[James L]

Personally, I disagree.

I have sparred in redman suits. Knowing that you are padded, and that shots are going to be well cushioned, does NOT prepare you for true combat.

Knowing that the person won't gouge your eyes, kick your nuts, or squish your trachea, does NOT prepare you for true combat.

Knowing that there isn't another person waiting in the wings to pound you from behind does NOT prepare you for combat.

Knowing that the cause and effect of landing solid blows on somebody will not occur because they are well padded does NOT prepare you for combat (i.e... the effect a solid uppercut, or shuto, or whatever would have on the attacker, their spine, their balance, direction, etc does not manifest itself when solid padding is worn. Your opponent can often fight right through the blow as it doesn't have its true effect due to the padding).

Somebody mentioned MMA competition, so I will add that fighting, knowing there are time limits and gloves, does NOT prepare you for real combat.


The methods mentioned can be used as reflex development exercises, as exercises to develop striking ability while actually truely striking a target, etc.

They do NOT accurately simulate true combat, and therefore do NOT accurately simulate the adrenaline dump.

[tekkengod]

Looks good. Do you know how much it costs?
site says about 1,000 bucks.

[tekkengod]

Somebody mentioned MMA competition, so I will add that fighting, knowing there are time limits and gloves, does NOT prepare you for real combat

you ever been hit in the face with an MMA glove? the padding is hardly existant, its just enough to protect your knuckle. MMA comps will most definately give you a tremendous edge, if know a better way to train striking/clinch/grappling, please let me know. anyway, this isn't the point of this thread so i'm not going to waste my time on anyone else. all i'm going to say is go enter one, then talk about.

[tengu666]

Personally, I disagree.

I have sparred in redman suits. Knowing that you are padded, and that shots are going to be well cushioned, does NOT prepare you for true combat.

Knowing that the person won't gouge your eyes, kick your nuts, or squish your trachea, does NOT prepare you for true combat.

Knowing that there isn't another person waiting in the wings to pound you from behind does NOT prepare you for combat.

Knowing that the cause and effect of landing solid blows on somebody will not occur because they are well padded does NOT prepare you for combat (i.e... the effect a solid uppercut, or shuto, or whatever would have on the attacker, their spine, their balance, direction, etc does not manifest itself when solid padding is worn. Your opponent can often fight right through the blow as it doesn't have its true effect due to the padding).

Somebody mentioned MMA competition, so I will add that fighting, knowing there are time limits and gloves, does NOT prepare you for real combat.


The methods mentioned can be used as reflex development exercises, as exercises to develop striking ability while actually truely striking a target, etc.

They do NOT accurately simulate true combat, and therefore do NOT accurately simulate the adrenaline dump.

Yeah, but maybe it should be good as a tool when for example attacker has it, you don't, so fear is present + you can blast him. Right? That should condition your adrenal reaction.

[tellner]

Personally, I disagree.

I have sparred in redman suits. Knowing that you are padded, and that shots are going to be well cushioned, does NOT prepare you for true combat.

Knowing that the person won't gouge your eyes, kick your nuts, or squish your trachea, does NOT prepare you for true combat.

Not exactly. The attackers have the suit, not the defender.

[James L]

Yeah, but maybe it should be good as a tool when for example attacker has it, you don't, so fear is present + you can blast him. Right? That should condition your adrenal reaction.


As long as he can blast you, when you are not wearing ANY protective equipment, as long as he can kick you in the nuts, as long as he can have a buddy hiding in a closet waiting to come out, as long as he can pull a knife, etc.

So, in essence, if your attacker wears equipment to protect himself (allowing you to go full blast), but at the same time you wear none and are open to truly life threatening attacks, then I agree it could condition your adrenal reaction.

Otherwise, nope. If the REAL threat of death is not there, then the training method does not accurately simulate true combat.

Note that I am not against any of these training methods, or sparring. Hell, I enjoy sparring (I am a Bujinkan guy, but have also been a grappler and a boxer for a long time).

Sparring will NEVER totally simulate real combat. If you believe that you "are living in your own little world".

:)

[wild_pitch]

on another note.. i think people throw around the word, *combat* way to easily.

[tengu666]

Sparring will NEVER totally simulate real combat. If you believe that you "are living in your own little world".


I agree. But it's the closest to the real thing, isn't it? OK, you can't eve gouge, break arms, etc., but adrenaline condition, distance, timing, etc. Sparring in only a tool, but essential tool.

"Training should be like a bloodless battle so that battle is just like bloody training." - Roman Legion Maxim

[NZ Ninja]

I believe the answer is in the mental intent of your attacker,If the intent of real harm is not there,your body wont respond like it is being threatend.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.;-}

[James L]

I agree. But it's the closest to the real thing, isn't it? OK, you can't eve gouge, break arms, etc., but adrenaline condition, distance, timing, etc. Sparring in only a tool, but essential tool.

"Training should be like a bloodless battle so that battle is just like bloody training." - Roman Legion Maxim

Sparring is helpful, for distancing and timing. Forms are helpful for learning technique. Heavy bags and makiwara are great for condition your strikes. Skipping rope is great for cardio.

All are good. NONE simulate a real fight. I don't get an adrenal dump from sparring, as I know I am working under restricted conditions (even MMA sparring falls into this category).

Sparring is a tool.... I agree completely. I put no more, or no less, value on it than I do with all the other aspects of MA training. People that do usually get quite surprised in actual combative situations.

[James L]

I believe the answer is in the mental intent of your attacker,If the intent of real harm is not there,your body wont respond like it is being threatend.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.;-}

Bingo.

[medi]

So, James, are you saying that there is NO way to simulate combat in training?

[James L]

So, James, are you saying that there is NO way to simulate combat in training?

Sure there is. Allow your attacker ANY form of attack, with no defensive or protective equipment to be worn. Allow yourself the opportunity to retaliate with the same (any attack, no protective equipment).

The last man standing wins. That would simulate combat well.

Other than that.... no. You can get fairly close, but you will never truly simulate real combat in safegaurded training.

People repeatedly talk about the adrenaline dump, adrenaline rush, etc. You cannot truly experience this when you are not truly fearful for your life.

When you know you are sparring one on one, with rules (even if limited), with an attacker that is not truly trying to maim you, who may or may not be in possession of a knife that will be pulled part way through the fight, etc you are not in the same situation as real combat.

MMA fighters, for example, go at it pretty hard. Many people think it is just like real combat. It is violent, but it also has timed rules, and 31 different forbidden tactics or techniques:

Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.


It also has weight classifications, and time restricted rounds.

Nope, that ain't real combat. Close, but no cigar.

I think many martial artists THINK that full contact sparring is real combat. I, personally, do not.

As I said before, many arts have different training methodologies. Some people are obsessed with them, some are not. I have a grappling and boxing background. I enjoy sparring. I currently train in the Bujinkan, and we do very little of what people would consider free sparring. I feel perfectly fine with my ability to defend myself.

To each their own I guess, but I just think some people are fooling themselves.

Cheers!

[tengu666]

You can't experience the real fight if you're not into one, but you can definitely experience it. Look at the self-defense programs which cover adrenaline stress reaction - and their results over time. Peyton Quin and Tony Baluer have good articles and results of thier methods.

But this is not the tread's theme : how can you know if that what you train you can really use in brawl? (I'm intentionaly focusing only on benefits to your fighting capabilities caused by your training, no mental, self-development or other things!)

[tellner]

But this is not the tread's theme : how can you know if that what you train you can really use in brawl? (I'm intentionaly focusing only on benefits to your fighting capabilities caused by your training, no mental, self-development or other things!)

You can't until you do. You can be more or less confident, better or more poorly trained and have an idea about how you might do. But it's like losing your virginity or having a child. Until you've done you don't know what it's really like.

The mental is the most important part of the preparation. It doesn't matter how well you can perform what you've been taught or what kind of simulations you do well in. Or even how big, strong and fast you are. If you don't have the heart you can't fight. Just showing up ready to fight is more than half the battle. The better part of the rest is staying in it and taking the punishment you've got to take to do the other guys until they stop doing you.

[medi]

Allow your attacker ANY form of attack, with no defensive or protective equipment to be worn. Allow yourself the opportunity to retaliate with the same (any attack, no protective equipment).

The last man standing wins. That would simulate combat well.


That's not simulating combat, that IS combat. People aren't 'fooling themselves', they just want to still have a training partner the next day.

What you wrote above is not a useful solution in any way.

[tellner]

When the US military wants to test nuclear weapons they do a lot of simulations and set off bombs underground in the middle of the Nevada desert - one of the most godforsaken pieces of real estate this side of the Takla Makan. They don't actually do airbursts over population centers. It isn't perfect, but it gives them a good enough idea of what to expect.

[Matt_Bernius]

On Blauer's High Gear suits, they're top notch. I got the chance to use earlier models a number of times. They take only a few moments to get into. And they are specifically designed for impact reduction as opposed to negation. It means that you can go full till and still feel it. They provide for a great range of mobility as well. Basically you can do exactly what Vanuk did (and I've done it), and walk away with minor bruises and a good headache.

In my experience, for training, they are far, far better than the Red Man Suits (though I am interested in seeing the new design).

Does it fully simulate a full on situation? No. Does it get you really close? Yes. And the close are more truthful you can be, the better prepared you will become. There are no gaurentees. But it will help shift probabilities in your favor.

- Matt

[James L]

That's not simulating combat, that IS combat. People aren't 'fooling themselves', they just want to still have a training partner the next day.

What you wrote above is not a useful solution in any way.

That is exactly my point, and I hope you detected the sarcasm in my voice.

You asked me:

So, James, are you saying that there is NO way to simulate combat in training?

And my reply is simply this....no, I don't.

You can work drills, you can spar to work distance and timing, etc. Until you are in a life threatening situation, you will not know how you will perform in combat.

Without the threat of true, serious injury from an assailant bent on hurting you drills will always be lacking.

You can come close, but you are not all the way there. In my opinion you can't be there in class.

[James L]

Does it fully simulate a full on situation? No. Does it get you really close? Yes. And the close are more truthful you can be, the better prepared you will become. There are no gaurentees. But it will help shift probabilities in your favor.

- Matt


This I agree with. You can get close in training, but that is it. You will never get all the way there in a simulated environment.

Cheers,

James

[medi]

That is exactly my point, and I hope you detected the sarcasm in my voice.

You asked me:



And my reply is simply this....no, I don't.

You can work drills, you can spar to work distance and timing, etc. Until you are in a life threatening situation, you will not know how you will perform in combat.

Without the threat of true, serious injury from an assailant bent on hurting you drills will always be lacking.

You can come close, but you are not all the way there. In my opinion you can't be there in class.


hehe I see what you're saying. I thought you'd gone off topic, when actually it was me going off topic.

Duh

[tengu666]

This I agree with. You can get close in training, but that is it. You will never get all the way there in a simulated environment.

Cheers,

James

How do you think they train solders to kill? Maximally realistic training and mental endurance (will to survive and fight). Since simulation is only close to the real thing, mental endurance tends to bridge the gap when the moment comes. Normally, experience fill permanently fill the gap. Your training should be based on same two principles.

You feel adrenaline stress when scared from stimulus (attacker). In mine experience, kind of having a peak in a first few seconds, but it tends to normalize afterwards. So, you act spontaneously in a fist seconds (sometimes I had black holes in memory for these first seconds). Afterwards I feel like I'm invincible and totaly aware and in control of myself. If you "get used to" that stimulus in a way having positive experience (getting better end in real fights), adrenaline peak will become less. Eventually, in my last fight (2 on 1), I was in control of myself all the time, which helped me act strategically as a victim while bashing these 2 guys, so witnesses later supported my viewpoint (I DID preemptive strike, so technically I attacked first). In context with simulating the fight, if it is very close to a real thing, you know that your parter really want to hurt you, and you beat him up (let's say he has a protection suit), that's positive experience. Eventually, this will lower you "adreanline peak".

This is my experience. IMHO this works for others as well.

[James L]

How do you think they train solders to kill? Maximally realistic training and mental endurance (will to survive and fight). Since simulation is only close to the real thing, mental endurance tends to bridge the gap when the moment comes. Normally, experience fill permanently fill the gap. Your training should be based on same two principles.

Poor analogy...

Soldiers are trained through theory and practice, but many also don't perform to expectations when first placed in a combat, kill or be killed, situation. Many make mistakes that cost them thier lives in their first days of battle. This is why inexperienced units often break and run in the face of experienced ones.

Furthermore, soldiers expect to follow a chain of command, and an essential part of making new soldiers perform as expected is to have their immediate superior(s) to provide the appropriate moral support and "motivation" where needed.

Going back to a street fight, against a determined assailant, you are usually alone, and may make the same mistakes when faced with death that many new soldiers who die in the early point of a battle make. You won't truely know until you are faced with that situation.


In context with simulating the fight, if it is very close to a real thing, you know that your parter really want to hurt you, and you beat him up (let's say he has a protection suit), that's positive experience. Eventually, this will lower you "adreanline peak".

This is my experience. IMHO this works for others as well.

I disagree. In a simulated fight, your opponent is not truely trying to maim you. If so they would pull your hair, bite your ear, groin shot, grab a peice of broken glass, knife you, etc. The intent is not truely there.

I have sparred MMA style, full contact, with UFC rules. It was fun, and challenging. It did NOT give me the same adrenal reaction as when I was attacked on the street. It was not even close for me.

To each their own I guess.

[tengu666]

OK, but theme is how to evalute your art. Stay to topic theme. :-)

[medi]

More specifically the question was "How do you evaluate if what you are training will work in a brawl"

I think he's making the point that sparring will help you evaluate individual techniques, but doesn't tell you that much about how you will respond overall to a life threatening situation. There could be a huge hole in your 'correct response' (i.e. that you'll be a quivering wreck on the floor) and you won't be able to 'evaluate' that until it happens.

Saying that every time I get into a verbal confrontation that might escalate, I'm scared and I feel the adrenalin going because I know it could kick off any second, but I still feel 'ready'. That's a clue.

[tengu666]

More specifically the question was "How do you evaluate if what you are training will work in a brawl"

I think he's making the point that sparring will help you evaluate individual techniques, but doesn't tell you that much about how you will respond overall to a life threatening situation. There could be a huge hole in your 'correct response' (i.e. that you'll be a quivering wreck on the floor) and you won't be able to 'evaluate' that until it happens.

Saying that every time I get into a verbal confrontation that might escalate, I'm scared and I feel the adrenalin going because I know it could kick off any second, but I still feel 'ready'. That's a clue.

Yeah, I completely agree. No matter if you spar (which is essential to build up practical experience), you won't be able to access this knowledge if you feeze. So, fear conditioning is essential for the initial beginning of the fight. As the fight can last more than few seconds (when adreanaline peak falls off), then your learnt skills come into place. Your sparring-like exercises should say what will go and what won't only in this stage of a fight. Again, MO.

[James L]

OK, but theme is how to evalute your art. Stay to topic theme. :-)

I replied directly to your words... perhaps it is you who should stay on topic.

:D

[James L]

I think he's making the point that sparring will help you evaluate individual techniques, but doesn't tell you that much about how you will respond overall to a life threatening situation. There could be a huge hole in your 'correct response' (i.e. that you'll be a quivering wreck on the floor) and you won't be able to 'evaluate' that until it happens.


Exactly. This is where I think people are sometimes fooling themselves with the true value of sparring. Sparring is a training tool, one that can be fun and very helpful to building certain attributes. It will never give you the feeling of being attacked by a determined assailant on the street, however.

[medi]

In order to evaluate combat readiness, I suggest a series of controlled tests. Go into a bar and start talking smack to the biggest guy you can find. As he starts gearing up to whip you, note your body's stress reactions.

Then, immediately apologise, leave the bar and straight away start sparring with your training partner. This will give you the feeling of sparring with a real adrenelin rush.

[bassai]

I hope you can run fast!:)

[Albert]

They came at him and he was ripping into them, knees, elbows, headbutts (seriously - on a motorbike helmet), the works. They were all fighting full contact.


I would be fine being the one dealing the damage, but i dont think even that protection would save the other guys from feeling some of the full power strikes, that must suck. Sounds like an awesome way to train tho id love to do that.

[Rebel Wado]

How can you evaluate if you training will work in an actual brawl? What methods you use for evaluation? Do you have fully padded partner charging at you with the full contact blows and giving resistance? Maybe some other method? No matter which style you are into, just write your opinion.

I'm late into this discussion because I wanted to wait to see what other would say.

And as others have said, you can you can try to simulate the situation. For instance, set up a scenario/environment close to the real thing and go at it with as much realism as you are willing to go for training purposes.

The one thing I would add to this is to have EXPERT opinions to evaluate the whole thing. That is have police trainers and personnel, street fighters, prison guards, military trainers... etc. Whomever you can get to be involved in evaluating the whole process and the combat itself. Their input will be invaluable.

I think that would give a good testing environment.

As for actual combat, this isn't simple visible stuff. There is a lot that happens in the hidden sense from what is inside the person (killer instinct, never give up attitude, experience in the situation and environment, experience in combat), surprise/ambush, to such things as LUCK. How do you train and simulate LUCK? I mean one person might be stabbed ten times and make it to a hospital and live, another might get stabbed once and be unlucky enough to die on the spot.

There is nothing you can do at times, accept it. So train and live as best you can.

-------

As for training, I feel that evaluation is good to give an idea of the kinds of things that need improving, but I feel one the biggest dangers to any martial artist is to become complacent.

Going full contact with padded suits and all is fine, but that still doesn't mean that someone can't or won't become comfortable with it to the point they don't continue to gain from it like they should.

I mean, the first few times someone spars, it often has a great effect upon them. Like a new challenge with lights going off and the feeling of danger and the thrill of accomplishment and/or defeat. This does a heck of a lot in helping someone learn.

A veteran could spar like that, but will not get the same benefits so the sparring might be more for working on technique and footwork. A veteran might seekout heavier contact and against more intensity and/or resistance to get good learning value out of sparring. A veteran might spar to learn and to maintain what they already have (serious training). However, a new person to sparring might spar because of the "rush" they get from it. (Clarification: A veteran might spar for the rush too, but the same level of sparring that gives a new comer a rush probably would not give the same rush to a veteran.)

On the same reasoning, someone will seek out RBSD training with verbal assault and an aggressive attacker in a padded suit so you can go all out and test things out and get that experience. The first few times this is light years ahead of most any other dojo type experience out there. After that it is still great but is more for maintanence and perfection of things because it does not have the same initial affect as before.

I say that a martial artist should train to get better and learn, to improve in areas they are good at and areas they are lacking both on the mat and in life, but also as important, if not more important at times, a martial artist should NOT become complacent.

A martial artist, IMHO, should continue to find ways to "shock the system" because it is a big, big world out there.

Just because one trains in RBSD and/or MMA and/or Muay Thai and/or whatever, the danger is to become too complacent in what you do.

Shock the system every once in a while and see what comes up.

[Angry Fist]

Hi, a bit late, I know but oh well I'm new

For me it's been a few years since I've had to fight but to me, I try and train with the most intent and develop those techniques I think would be helpful in a fight and seperate them from those I might use in sparring because I know that it will work against a specific attack.

I practice jujitsu but spar with as many types of fighters as I can for example a friend of mine does TKD and another boxes and another also does jujitsu so its pretty interesting.

I think that the key is to be able to manipulate the opponent into a position where you can use a technique by leading him on or by setup attacks. But like I said, I haven't had a real fight in many years and thats the strategy I use now when I spar.

Cheers