San qi Shang Yao Pian

[SCP_Kensei]

I've recently had a consultation with a Chinese Herbalist for remedies to Bone bruising and he suggested these pills.

Taken either orally or crushed and applied as a poultice he says they should greatly speed up healing of Periosteum bruising.
Does anyone here have any experience with these?

The Ingredients are:
San Qi (Radix Nitroginseng)
Hong Hua (Flos Carthami)
Jie Gu mu (Ramulus Sambuci)
Gi Sui Bu (Rhizoma Drynariae)
Chi sao (Radix Paeoniae Rubra)

I've also bought Some "Wood Lock" Oil, which works wonders (i;ve used it before ) for tissue damage, and some "Zheng gu Shui" (OMG does this stuff burn). I'm prretty clued up on these last 2 but the Pills i'm not sure about. either way i will keep you posted whilst i'm using them but what are your experiences?

[jonmonk]

Have you tried Arnica? My other half swears by it.

[SCP_Kensei]

Have you tried Arnica? My other half swears by it.

I am taking arnica pills too atm. But they deal only with soft tissue bruising (breaking up the bruise blood and helkping it dissipate). I wanted something specifically to help with Periosteum bruising.


Strangely I tried asking about Dit Da Jow and got met with a blank stare.

[lhommedieu]

Re. the herbs in your formula:

These are all used in various trauma formulas. Most move blood and kill pain. Gu Sui Bu can be loosely translated as "mender of shattered bones," and makes sense for periosteum bruising. It is also a Kidney Yang tonic (the kidneys influence the bones, in Chinese medicine) so it would make sense to take this formula both as a pill and to crush it and mix it with alcohol (cheap whiskey works very well) to make a liniment.

If your herbalist is Manderin-speaking he may not recognize the Cantonese "dit da jow" - "die da jiu" (dee-ah da joo) would be the Manderin pin yin equivalent (of course, both you and I will fracture the correct pronounciation!).

Zheng gu Shui is generally intended for chronic injuries that are aggravated by damp and cold, so if you are using it for acute brusing it may not be the best choice as it is very warming. Woodlock oil has some very good properties.

You may also want to consider "Black Ghost Oil" which is a patent remedy (liniment) intended for "bruises that you can feel but cannot see," i.e. bone bruises.

I can comment more on your formula is you want to pm me - as well as send you a picture of "Black Ghost Oil," which will be impossible to find unless you have a picture of the logo.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[SCP_Kensei]

Re. the herbs in your formula:

These are all used in various trauma formulas. Most move blood and kill pain. Gu Sui Bu can be loosely translated as "mender of shattered bones," and makes sense for periosteum bruising. It is also a Kidney Yang tonic (the kidneys influence the bones, in Chinese medicine) so it would make sense to take this formula both as a pill and to crush it and mix it with alcohol (cheap whiskey works very well) to make a liniment.

If your herbalist is Manderin-speaking he may not recognize the Cantonese "dit da jow" - "die da jiu" (dee-ah da joo) would be the Manderin pin yin equivalent (of course, both you and I will fracture the correct pronounciation!).

Zhang Gu Sui is generally intended for chronic injuries that are aggravated by damp and cold, so if you are using it for acute brusing it may not be the best choice as it is very warming. Woodlock oil has some very good properties.

You may also want to consider "Black Ghost Oil" which is a patent remedy (liniment) intended for "bruises that you can feel but cannot see," i.e. bone bruises.

I can comment more on your formula is you want to pm me - as well as send you a picture of "Black Ghost Oil," which will be impossible to find unless you have a picture of the logo.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Thanks for the info, I would appreciate All the info you can give.

[lhommedieu]

San Qi (Radix Nitroginseng)

This is probably the “emperor herb” (main herb) of your formula. Transforms blood stasis (periosteum bruise) reduces swelling, and kills pain. It is the key component in the popular patent remedy for trauma, Yunnan Bai Yao. Used also for moving blood stasis in joints that causes pain, so there is probably some carry-over for periosteum bruising in your herbalist’s opinion.

Hong Hua (Flos Carthami)

Moves Blood and kills pain. Tibetan saffron (Zang Hong Hua) is stronger (and more expensive)

Jie Gu Mu (Ramulus Sambuci)

Probably moves Blood and kills pain. Not in my texts, but I found a reference to it as an herb that is used for the treatment of traumatic injury. Your herbalist may have knowledge of this herb as specifically good for bone injuries. It is interesting to note that the pin yin word “Gu” (bone) is used to describe this herb (see “Gu Sui Bu,” below)

Gu Sui Bu (Rhizoma Drynariae)

“Mender of Shattered Bones.” Tonifies the Kidneys (related to the bones in Chinese medicine; promotes mending of broken bones and sinews. As used in this formula, it also moves the Blood-moving and Pain-killing actions of the other herbs to the bones.

Chi Shao (Radix Paeoniae Rubra)

Moves Blood and dispels Blood Stasis. This herb is cooling in nature and is probably used to balance out the more warming nature of the other herbs in this formula.

***

Note: I described this formula as if it were comprised of raw herbs, but this formula is a patent remedy (pre-packaged), yes? It would be more effective (as most Chinese herbal remedies are) taken as a decoction. Patent formulas are generally much weaker than decoctions.

Best,

Steve Lamade

[PlumDragon]

Those ingredients are some of the base ingredients used in some iron palm jow formulas. As lhomm said, the pseudo/notoginseng is an important one. A common one not appearing on your list is Chuang Zhi (cnidium seed), also used often to strengthen bone.

Have you tried Arnica? My other half swears by it.
I tend to stay away from arnica even though many like it. Repeated application can cause unneeded severe inflammation, and many people are sensitive to it. Its also somewhat poisonous.

[PlumDragon]

Jie Gu Mu (Ramulus Sambuci)

Probably moves Blood and kills pain. Not in my texts, but I found a reference to it as an herb that is used for the treatment of traumatic injury. Your herbalist may have knowledge of this herb as specifically good for bone injuries. It is interesting to note that the pin yin word “Gu” (bone) is used to describe this herb (see “Gu Sui Bu,” below)
Was loking back at this thread and something occured to me:
I think the spelling on this is wrong. Id be willing to bet what he meant was Zhi Gui (gui zhi) or cinnamon, which is sometimes used as a remedy for muscle and bone weakness.

[SCP_Kensei]

Nope, it's definitiely: Jie Gu mu

I googled that one:
[urlhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11596204&dopt=Abstract[/url]

edit: The Combination of treatments worked great, almost halved my healing time. Unfortunately the massive expense of the herbs means that I'll have to wait till I get really badly hurt before I boither again.

Until then it's just Thai Oil (Menthol and Methyl Salicylate), and Boxing cream (The same but with Eugenol too) with my remaining woodlock (when I can stand the stink) and my Zheng gu Shui.