Hagakure

[Knight_Errant]

I've just finished reading the translation and I think it's philosophically very sound and all. But I suffer the nagging doubt that the samurai were evil and Yamamoto Tsunemoto(who wrote haggakure, unless I misunderstood the title page) was one of them. Any comments?

[johndoch]

Why Evil?

Can you give a reason

[Knight_Errant]

Because they were exploitative feudal overlords who had the right to kill whoever they wished and they coveted importance whilst ignoring the plight of the common man.

[JediMasterChris]

Well you can't judge a whole class of people by a few of them, but yes they were somewhat cruel, such as testing the sharpness of all of their swords on criminals, if there were no criminals they were tested on vilagers to see how well it cuts through bone and the results were recorded on the tang.

[SoKKlab]

But,
No different to The Knightly class of Europe though (?).
Feudal, I guess, is really feudal after all.

I doubt if they were all bad, probably high on war alot of the time and then bored and vexed when there wasn't any.

The peasantry always suffers regardless of who is above them, doesn't it?

[Knight_Errant]

But surely there are SOME standards against which all must be judged?

[SoKKlab]

Yeah definitely K E,
Just that standards were different then than they are now.

To us, in this 'Civilised Age' (Use words sparingly), everything from the Feudal period seems horrific.

When you can kill people by Remote Control, the thought of slicing them open with a Blade and smelling their breath and realising that they are as Human as you, is one that is horrific to most people.

I recently read Chivalry by Michael Foss and that talks about Knightly values and culture during the Middle Medieval period in Europe. Some of the Slaughter and Outright Murder commited in the name of God, State, Country, Honour etc was downright horrific and nothing short of Armageddonish (New Word??) in its intent.

As I seem to remember (It's been a long time) The Hagakure brought out the same reaction in me, one of Fascination, Curiousity and Horror, all at the same time.

By my values now, i'd agree that there was alot of sadism and hate amongst the Samurai class.

But to them, they were doing what seemed right and natural within the context of their own culture in time and space. Or, they knew that it was all morally wrong, but did it anyway, just because they could?

Not something exceptable to us but exceptable to them at the time.

Akira Kurosawa's Samurai movies allude to this very well
Sanjuro, Ran etc etc.

Do you think there were any good points to Samurai life?

Were their Spiritual and Moral values really heartfelt, or just an excuse for the actions that they commited in the name of Privilege?

[johndoch]

When I read Hagakure I never really felt any evil undertones. I guess I must be evil something. It's worth remembering that samurais were not overlords they were retainers to there masters. This meant that they were to follow their masters command at any time no matter what the order. Failure to follow orders meant dishonor to samurai code and therefore the samurai was required to commit seppuka (suicide by stabbing your stomach and dragging across its length) or become ronin (masterless samurai). So you can see the samurai was acting out the will of their masters and dishonour meant death or exile for them and their loved ones.

I think westerners calling samurais evil is quite ironic considering Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What do the Japanese think of us??

[Knight_Errant]

Well, it is a fact that very few humans willfully act in a way they know to be evil and their own literature is bound to portray them in a good light.

[Starboy]

I remember discussing this book with a grad student friend of mine a while back. He is from Japan and his foci were religion and philosophy. Basically, I thought that the Hagakure (and possibly the entire Samurai philosophy for that matter) was propaganda. My take on it was that the emphasis on loyalty to the retainer and lack of emphasis on free thought and a self-journey to any kind of moral or personal development was what would be a good tool to make "good little soldiers" for a feudal lord. My friend told me that the samurai were much like a typical army. I am not claiming that this is the case, but it would appear to be a convenient method to subjugate the soldiers and assuage them by giving them a "greater purpose".

[David]

I've read a lot of this book now and I'm not shocked because all the beheading etc isn't new to me. Now, I have a better grasp of why they do it and I can see some serious merit to it.

Remember the Hashashim who jumped to their deaths off the tall tower just to demonstrate to a white man that they were 100% dedicated to carryingout orders?

Whilst it's a complete waste of life in one way, it is also a fantastic proof of courage. I'm a bit concerned about all this master-love that the samuari were all about but ther methods are excellent.

Rgds,
David

[David]

I just remembered another true story about killing selves.

Three Polish guys getting drunk in a shack. They get a chainsaw and one says I'm hard and cuts off his foot. the next guy takes it and says that's nothing and cuts his arm off. The third guy really goes for it and says you ain't seen nothing yet and cuts his own head off.

Rgds,
David

[Knight_Errant]

yeah, I remember who told you that story, too :p

[David]

Shirley some mishtake?

The Polish one came from the New Scientist. The assassins I don't know specifically.

Rgds,
David

[AgentX]

Thay might have been COLD BLOODED KILLERS ,
but they had COURAGE and the MOST important HONOR CODE.
Something not much people have today.

[David]

Originally posted by AgentX
...they had COURAGE and the MOST important HONOR CODE.
Something not much people have today.

Exactly the point of the book!

In many examples given, the samurai broke the law with their actions but were exonerated by the lords because it would have been a greater crime to break the Samurai code.

This primacy of the bestial facts of life kept them real. Someone once observed that we throw away our freedoms just to gain more security. This is effectively throwing away what it is to be alive.

Rgds,
David

[Kwajman]

Well, not wanting to start a flame war, but how much courage does it take to behead an unarmed citizen. Much like the Japanese in Nanking, beheading a tied up prisoner isn't very courageous, nor honorable in any form. Though in their defense, it did create a static, stable environment to live in. Though unless you were one of the nobles, it may not have been much of a life...

:(

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by Kwajman
Well, not wanting to start a flame war, but how much courage does it take to behead an unarmed citizen. Much like the Japanese in Nanking, beheading a tied up prisoner isn't very courageous, nor honorable in any form. Though in their defense, it did create a static, stable environment to live in. Though unless you were one of the nobles, it may not have been much of a life...:(

Yes you have a good point. But sadly there are bad people in every race. The A Bomb was not too good either. Right up to today some countries have an atrocious record of unnecessary killing sanctioned by governments.

The Hagakure and Musashi's Gorin no sho are well liked in Japan because they talk of an ideal that all would want to follow.

They both discuss ones fatality. That if ones life is on the line one should face it a and deal with it. Musashi says if one wants to learn the true sword one must learn the heart. Pick a sword up and use it to defend ones country if need be. But the best way is to stay at home, raise kids and look after your family.

[47Ronin]

When i read Hagakure the first thing I noticed in the book was it stated Yamamoto Tsunetomo was a more of a scholar and not a swordsman. The book didn't come off evil at all because he was adapted to that time frame (I.E. Gangs are used to hearing "yeah I shot that guy cuz he talked crap, blah blah blah.") So some people are set to that time standard. In my opinion Yamamoto Tsunetomo was not an evil man one bit.

[Knight_Errant]

In my humble opinion, it is this kind of logic that says 'Oh, it was OK to enslave humans in the 18th century because that's how things were done back then'. I find it highly specious.

[Tethys]

Actually due to the fact that crime was very low in feudal Japan leads one to wonder of the effectiveness in the role of peacekeepers. While it was true that they engaged in practices that, to the modern mind, are aborrent, such as teh beheadings of ciminals or practicing on corpses or killing of peasants that refused to bow quickly or low enough, tehy were also upholders of law, order, and honor.
The Samurai existed to preserve the overall freedom and way of life that the Japaneses enjoyed for centuries, alien though it may appear to us. You may look at my profile and say "He is BUshi, of course he is prejudiced toweard the Samurai", but I assure you that as a member of Western Society that I can look with an open mind concerning them, and still, after so may years studying the culture and way of life that I am still fascinated by it. The Hagakure gives us a glimpse into that life, nothing more.
We should all be so fortunate to have what few, true samurai remain, even if they themselves are unaware of it.

[StorDuff]

I read that book in chemistry class (I make up my own curriculums), he is crazy. Why does one have to rise early and have good hygiene to be a samurai? :o

[Knight_Errant]

and why does one have to behead people and die in an excrutiatingly painful way to be a good human being?

[Brad Ellin]

Just starting reading it, so I'm gonna wait until I finish it before commenting. I will say this however, having read the first chapter has provided me insight into my own martial art. Philosphical insight, that is.

[David]

and why does one have to behead people and die in an excrutiatingly painful way to be a good human being?
It made you good as in good at being merciless with yourself and everyone else equally.