It works!

[Thomas Vince]

Let me tell you a quick story. We were fighting in the studio on Friday of last week, we were going full contact, full gear, take downs, no holding back fighting. There were black eyes, fat lips, and some seriously bruised outer thighs, we use a lot of leg kicks for street fighting, very effective. Well I was coming in with a very hard roundhouse kick to this guys left ileo tibial band area ( outside of the thigh above the knee)and he switched stances on me. I caught him on the inside of his right leg just above the knee. I hyperflexed my right foot and even with immediate ice applied it swelled and I could not place weight on the foot. Doctor said Right pinkie toe was broken, and three tendons torn including the large planter flex tendon. He wanted to cast the foot and said six to eight weeks. With all do respect I limped out of the office and went straight to my Dit Da Jow and Tien Ta Wan. After a bruising extract was applied and a message it is now tuesday. My foot looks like a car ran over it, it is purple, blue, black, green and resembles a French Balloon! But i am placing full body weight and I did my first kicks last night on the bags!
Traditional Healing Works!!!!!

By the way in case you were wondering i still have the philosophy of the one who teaches can kick everyone's @ss! They appeared to have been hit by a car, they came in limping, moaning, soar, groaning, black eyes, swollen noses, bruised hips, thighs, arms, forearms, shins, broken toes and black and blue hands, smiling from ear to ear!
It amazes me, the harder I beat them the harder they fight?

[Jack]

If you've torn tendons you don't want to be getting back to action right away, dit da jow or no dit da jow.

[Thomas Vince]

I agree just a lot of stretching and strengthening work right now, it will take a few more weeks but I'm on my feet and walking with only a slight limp. Thanks for the concern Jack!
Thomas

[Thomas Vince]

Also I am following up with Tien Tah Wan twice daily and what is called a "hit Pill" in the Iron Palm training that is used for trauma.
Thomas

[Pablo]

"...If you've torn tendons you don't want to be getting back to action right away, dit da jow or no dit da jow..."

With a torn tendon, it's not optional. They have to be reattached through surgery, otherwise, they just lay under the skin, rolled up in a ball. No topical treatment is going to take care of that.

I suspect that we are talking about a micro-tear, or severely strained tendon, not one that has been torn away from the attachment.

Good luck

paul

[Andy Murray]

Hi folks,

Thomas' post raises an interesting question!

Should we just 'grin & bear' our injuries for the sake of our reputation as tough guy(ette)s?

If I get a serious injury in a training accident, should I keep going, or would I be setting a bad example?

Who needs Dit Da Jow when you have Elastoplast?

Ouch!

Andy

[Melanie]

I have to admit I would rather favour getting my injury healed in 3 weeks than having to put up with it for 8 weeks whilst training and have to look forward to having repeated pain/strain in later life with it.

Just me though I expect...

[Thomas Vince]

Pablo,
You are correct in the terminology, they are not seperated from the bone are reffered to as micro tears, they go beyond strains in edema and in internal blood pooling, you have to take measures to prevent thrombosis and other factors, the injury to the ligaments goes without saying and there is also broken bone but it is not fully seperated and can be healed with internal medicines as well. If anyone wishes to know I can give the list of medicines, herbs, and so on. I make my own with the help of a traditional chinese healer who was a direct student under Okazaki and the Danzan Ryu Jujitsu style, he's very good.

[Thomas Vince]

Also,
This is not about being tough, I am a realist. I now carry back up weapons, small knives, mace and other things to compensate for the weakness. It ancient times I would be hunted, vulnerable, and probably killed by my enemies. The fact i must be on my feet and moving it about IS part of the rehab. You cannot allow an injury to completely immobilize you. When the meridians of the body are still connected you have to increase the power through those meridians in order to speed the healing process, a healing meditation twice a day is also vital. It is pure survival and not about an image of toughness. I just wanted to make sure everyone knew where I was coming from. Yes Andy we are tough, obviously look at how i got the injury, but at the same time I learned some valuable info, and brought something bake into my life that was missing. It took the trauma that scared me to make me determined to have faith once again in the ancient teachings!
Thomas

[Andy Murray]

I gotta say that I hate getting hurt. I hate trying to pretend something doesn't hurt when it actually does!

Pain, and a desire to avoid it is surely a Natural process?

I can, and have controlled pain in a mind over matter type of way, but one of the major reasons I train is to be the inflictor and not the sufferer of pain!

Cluck, cluck,cluck!

Andy

[hongkongfuey]

My Taikwondo instructor once gave a boardbreaking demonstration. He attempted to break two boards with a punch, but the boards did not break.

He then found out that the boards grain had been crossed, corrected this and broke them easily.

I found out afterwards that he had broken 3-4 bones in his hand when he hit the boards the first time, but allowed no pain to show on his face. Only his students ever found out that he had been in any pain at all.

I found this mastery of pain amazing. Not just to continue with the demo, but to not even show any concern.

[Thomas Vince]

Only fear HKF creates concern where pain is concern. Buddha explained that the path to true enlightenment is through the realization and emancipation of suffering or (Dukkha) the Sanskrit word for suffering. The type of suffering that comes from pain, discomfort, old age, disease are all forms of very common suffering and is only a part of the suffering we experience. There are three forms of suffering according to Buddha and the idea that even though i have an injury my foot is still attached to body tells me that I will heal and I will walk again! Most important is that even if I lose the foot, the body is merely a vehicle, and a crude one at that for moving about. Just like tree's , animals and all life, it is impermanent and ever changing, what i perceive as death is not death just a change of matter.

[Pablo]

"...they go beyond strains in edema and in internal blood pooling, you have to take measures to prevent thrombosis and other factors, the injury to the ligaments goes without saying and there is also broken bone but it is not fully seperated..."

I had a similar injury a long time ago, and I am sorry to hear that you are in the same condition. It is far from pleasant.

As far as training with pain goes, I feel as though there is a very practical component to being able to carry on when injured, BUT to simulate that in training we should be careful not to tear ourselves down. If not healed properly, even a minor injury can become a chronic weakness that never fully recovers.

I highly recommend some of the modalities from TCM, such as herbal recipes, acupuncture, and so on.
Just make sure that we know exactly what the injury is, and apply these remedies accurately (as Thomas did), instead of expecting rub on miracles.

take care

paul

[khafra]

Hm... Well, Thomas, that buddhist freedom from attachment helps me avoid emotional pain pretty well. But physical pain still sucks, even if I believe it is a good sign, or a neutral sign. I know people that enjoy swinging twenty feet in the air, suspended by hooks through the skin on their back, but I have yet to figure out exactly how. I'll let you know when I figure out, but in the meantime I'll just be glad that they're my friends, not my enemies.

[Thomas Vince]

Just wanted you all to know that I am now running, and kicking full power again to the amazememt of my doctor who still says there is a hairline fracture in the largest bone of the foor up near the ankle joint. Must be why it still bites once in awhile, nevertheless, I am now in the stretching and strengthening part of the rehab, thanks to everyone for the concern.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

The reason they enjoy it Khafra, is because they're masochists.

[ladyhawk]

Wing Chun Dit Da Jow

by Sifu John Crescione

For as unique a martial art as Wing Chun, it's still a Kung Fu system like the rest.That means herbal medicine, point hitting and chi kung are included in its curriculum and system structure. However, depending on which Wing Chun Sifu you speak to (including your own), these subjects will bring about wonderful coffee-table philosophical
discussions.

The purpose of this small article is to give the Wing Chun practitioner the ability to learn how to make an herbal preparation and learn something about Chinese medicine and Wing Chun. Oh, and by
the way, I'm going to try and do it for you as quickly and cheaply as possible AND without pushing anyone's button's on the above subjects.

Dit Da Jow (Cantonese) or Tieh Ta Chiao (Mandarin) means "Hit and Fall Wine" (or liniment). Jow, as it is commonly referred to, can be broken down into two types: Han Dit Da Jow (cold hit medicine) and Rei Dit Da Jow (hot hit medicine).

Hot Jow is actually heated for situations that require a lot of circulation, blood flow and lymphatic drainage into an area - such as with iron palm training where you are constantly challenging the skin, bone, muscles and connective tissues of the hand and arm to become tougher and stronger while at the same time attempting to keep
the acupuncture points in the hand open so that you can project energy through the hand into the target (P8 and Heart8 - look them up in any acupuncture book if you're not familiar with these two points).

Cold Jow is used as an all-purpose, when in doubt and after the fact, injury liniment. Its properties are similar to hot Jow except: it's not heated, the herbs used are different and, to promote the breakup of stagnant blood, lymph and chi circulation (if you don't believe in chi circulation then ignore the last two words and replace them with "breaking connective tissue adhesions that interfere with normal tissue healing and the electrical charge flow of the body.") Both types are rubbed into the skin before and after a workout for best results. It should be noted that one of the secrets of the magical Jow formula is in the rubbing. Remember way back as a kid, when you got a cold and Mom or Grandma would come in and rub you down with alcohol or Vicks, the secret was in the rub. Soft tissue
manipulation alone will promote many of the qualities without the Jow, though the medicine speeds up the healing time and prevents improper drainage and stagnation problems. While we are on the subject of rubbing, Tiger Balm is the oriental version of Ben Gay or Vicks. If you can't get a good Jow, or if you don't want to buy it store-bought because of the quality, or "it just has to be made fresh and official by Sifu", Tiger Balm is almost as good. If you want to make your own because you can't find it (hard to believe), here's how to do it. I'll get to the Jow recipe in a minute.

Take a small jar of Vaseline, a small jar of Vicks, cayenne red pepper (it's somewhere in the kitchen on your spice rack) and either dried red chilli peppers (most gourmet stores have them) or red chilli peppers that have already been bottled (they're probably next to the cayenne pepper).
Put the Vaseline in a pot and melt it on the stove at low heat. Add two or three tablespoons of Vicks - depending on how smelly and mentholly you want it - until that also is melted. Grind up the red pepper until it's a powder, mix it with the cayenne pepper and add to the melted Vaseline.
While in its liquid state, repour it back into a jar and let cool. I did not mention the quantities of either the cayenne pepper or the chilli pepper because that will be up to you based on the desired strength of your compound. If you use a small jar of Vaseline and you want it hot, use two tablespoons of both peppers finely ground and
stirred into the compound. When it cools it will be somewhere between a pink to red color. You've just made Red Tiger Balm - congratulations!

Now back to the Jow - the recipe that I will give you is a simple one that uses common Chinese herbs that are for the most part easy to get in herb catalogs or herbal stores if you have a Chinatown or wholistic community near you.

(these are the botanical names and Chinese names) 1 oz.=30 grams

1 bottle of strong vodka, gin or Chinese rice wine
Artemesia (Liu ji nu) - 5g
Borneol (Bingpian) - 1g
Carthamus (Honghua) - 5g
Catechu (Ercha) - 8g
Cinnabar (Zhusha) - 5g
Cirsium (DaJi) - 1g
Dragon's Blood (Xuejie) - 30g
Mastic (Ruxiang) - 5g
Musk (Shexiang) - 1g
Myrrh (Moyao) - 5g
Pinellia (ShengBanXia) - 5g

Take all ingredients and grind into a fine powder, add the whole bottle of vodka or gin. Mix well and rub into the injured area. The beauty of this particular recipe is that you don't have to bury it for 35 days to two month before you can use it. Classically when you made Jow it had to be buried underground for an extended period of time before it was ready to be used. There was no magical/mystical reasoning behind it. Sunlight and heat oxidize the herbs and change the chemical properties so, keeping in mind it's around the year 1700, where are you going to store this stuff when you need a dark cool dry place? And what do you use to ferment and age your herbal combination to get the most out of your ingredients - alcohol. That's why a 100 year old Scotch Whiskey is supposed to be so good.

If you desire to have the herbs soak, pour the combination into a dark glass container and place it in a closet or cupboard where it shouldn't get too hot, and periodically shake the liniment once or twice a week. You should note that if you do this the traditional way then the herbs are loosely ground, and not into a powder. And the
longer they sit in the bottle the stronger the Jow becomes. This is the reason many Kung Fu practitioner's who are traditionally or classically trained (like myself) will not buy store bought Jow, but prefer to make our own. The store bought Jow never has any of the herbs at the bottom of the bottle that they come in. Also some Jow is sold in plastic bottles, and over time the plastic starts to break down into the herbal formula. And some Jow is even sold in clear bottles with no way to know how long it's been in there. A decent Jow should look like soy sauce in color and have a slight alcohol, medicinal smell. Please note this Jow recipe may not be as dark
or "smelly" due to the quality of herbs, time left to soak before usage, cooking properties of some of the herbs, combinations of the specific herbs or the specific usage properties. This is a "fast"
formula, it's original intent is to be made now to use now, not in a month or two.

The Wing Chun player usually needs Jow on their hands, forearms and chest. The first couple of times that you try to punch with the bottom three knuckles, blood vessels are usually broken between the last two knuckle valleys. Jow should be applied in between the knuckles before and after punching the bag, wall bag or focus mitt. A very important reason for this is because two very powerful acupuncture points reside in those two valleys and are responsible for the hormonal system and small intestines. With any type of bruise or blood stagnation, problems in circulation and health may occur. When doing any prolonged bridge (forearm) work such as Pak Sao where bruising can occur, Jow needs to be worked into the bridges. And anyone who is up to Chi Sao level knows why they have to apply Jow to the chest, especially if your partner is using you as the Wooden Man to practice new techniques, or just delights in pounding on you. But what becomes more important is that the famous Wing Chun centerline
is in Chinese medicine the conception vessel meridian which basically is involved with the alarm point systems of the body. Cv-17 is dead
center on the sternum and is responsible for controlling the diaphragm, controlling energy to the G.I.and G.U. systems and is a storage area for chi in the body. A pretty good place to hit! And we do this to each other repeatedly and on purpose.

It is important that Jow not be rubbed into open wounds, taken internally or gotten in the eyes.

Jow recipes are common in every system and every instructor has a favorite or favorites based on their uses. I have personally spoken to Yip Chun, Yip Ching, William Cheung, Augustine Fong and Moy Yat, all of whom have their own Jow recipes (that were given to them personally by Yip Man and is the true historical Jow handed down from Leung Jan). Now, if you have a true Wing Chun mentality then you really don't care if it is the true Leung Jan Jow - only whether it works.

Two last points. First, if you do Chi Kung, or your system of Wing Chun has it in it (that's another article) try this: rub the Jow or balm into some of your injuries, then do your Chi Kung, concentrating on directing the Jow into the skin and into the injuries. In about two weeks of this you should be pleasantly surprised. If it's an old chronic injury the rubbing technique is usually slow and deep, if it's relatively new then it's a light, quick type of rubbing. Secondly, learn as much as you can about herbs, both American and
Chinese. Do you know why the Chinese used Ginseng, Ma Huang and Tang Kuei? BECAUSE THEY WERE IN CHINA!! Those herbs were indigenous to that country. If Kung Fu was invented in this country
our "traditional" Jow would contain completely different ingredients! So if you like to think of yourself as a "true" martial artist, start
learning about American herbs and their qualities to heal externally and internally.

[ladyhawk]

http://www.aikidofaq.com/making/dit_da_jao.html

[Thomas Vince]

I like the recipe,
Only thing I wold like to add is that some people like to use a Potato based Vodka. Now all vodka is not potato based, most are made from grains nowadays and it is cheaper, so if you want to get the best most natural penetration you should look for a potato based vodka there are only a few brands and they tend to be more expensive. All the potato based vodka I have found have come from it's mother country of Poland.

LadyHawk,
My hat goes of to you, and I bow respectfully, you have some knowledge there girl and I like it! Me thinks you wiser than you lettinz us know!

[Thomas Vince]

Also most of these herbs in their natural raw form look like sticks and twigs. They can be hard to grind out especially if you need the medicine now and cannot wait to dry them out.
There is another method that I found really works well, I steamed them! It works well because it opens up the herbs and then you pour the alcohol over it and let it sit for a couple of hours. I immediatly froze the herbs after I drained off two small bottles. I do use plastic only because it keeps the sunlight off of it and we use it quite a bit so it doesn't last long. I usually make a batch about once every two months. We do use the makiwara and I practice the iron palm and other tendon and bone conditioning methods privately and I really enjoy the results and the personal challenge it creates within me. I do enjoy breaking bricks and boards even though they don't hit back.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I thought vodka was by definition made from potato, same as gran marnier is made from oranges or grenadine from those things, damn, I forget the name.

[ladyhawk]

Thank you for your kind words Thomas.
Do you normally grind your herbs because I don't.
I've been told that grinding some herbs releases some energy and it is lost. . Most external jows should not be ground. Thanks for the tip about the
potato based vodka. I'm definitely going to have to check into it. If you make large quanities at a time, when it is done you can pour it back into the vodka bottles and put the bottle in one of those decorative cloth bags that are used for giving a bottle of liquor as a gift. This protects it from sunlight.

[Thomas Vince]

CKD,
I can tell you what I know. Vodka originated in Poland, not Russia, and was originally a potato based liquor, however most every vodka you now buy is made from grains, it is cheaper. You will find the taste and smell of potato based vodka to be that of like rubbing alcohol, and it bites! I will not drink it, I use it only for the Jow.
I do not grind the Jow herbs at all I like the steam method and I just pour the vodka over the herbs and let it soak overnight.

[ladyhawk]

Gottcha Thomas,
I just wanted to make sure I understood. I never had the need to brew a quick batch but I certainly will keep that method in mind. I put the herbs in a large wide mouth jar and add alcohol, place in closet to brew for atleast two weeks (the longer it brews the stronger it gets) shake occasionally.
This is how I make Jow or what I have nicknamed Karate Kologne.

[ladyhawk]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Thomas Vince

and it bites! I will not drink it, I use it only for the Jow.


If you ever have the opportunity to get your hands
on some real Moonshine/White Lightning...use that.

[PhantomPig]

Just posting to make sure everyone is aware of the potential risks of using the jow that ladyhawk suggested. I am training in TCM in the UK and as far as i know the herb Zhusha is not allowed to be used as it contains mercury. The herb Shexiang is actually an animal product and is banned from use in clinical practise. This does not mean it is bad but just dont go prescribing it to friends. You may also want to alert people to the fact this formula contains mercury. Other than that the formula promotes blood circultaion, stops bleeding and resolves phlegm. It has other minor functions too but a good formula for a jow.