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Bograt
13-Jul-2005, 09:35 PM
Not wishing to write an in-depth article on the pros and cons of a particular system and not wishing to debate a system that to many is clouded in controversy as I don’t pretend to be an expert or in fact fully understand the full origins but it is hoped that this article will give a small insight of this system which I hope will enlighten other martial artists and in some way remove the stigma relating to it.

I am sure this will be an area for debate and in some way be a contentious issue for many years to come but lets take a stab at the area of Freestyle Points Fighting.

What is points fighting?

Well before I answer that question lets look at the origins of Points fighting. If I’m wrong then please correct me I don’t pretend to be an expert just telling it as I see it.

In the mid 70’s the traditional aspects of karate where under pressure from martial artist in America who wanted to get away from the restrictive rules governing the contact level of the Traditional arts, so a number of well known and respected martial artists got together to develop there own style which they called full contact karate or knock down karate.

This style differed from the traditional arts in that the fighting area was taken from a matted area and moved to a central location ( the fighting ring ) The fighters also donned boxing gloves for added protection. It was hoped that by putting it in a ring the status of full contact karate would grow in line with that of boxing.

That’s it for the kickboxing side as I am sure there are many of you who could take up that side and the idea here is to address points fighting.

Anyway whilst the area of full contact karate continued to grow there where many people who saw what they where teaching being left behind their livelihoods threatened as many students had moved over to the new style of full contact karate, whilst many wanted to continue teaching the traditional style they where comfortable with, they also needed to get away from the restrictive rules of the traditional arts and in the early 80’s the style of freestyle points fighting emerged onto the fighting circuit.

Immediately the style was attacked by styles on both sides firstly the Traditional practitioners saw these freestyles as bringing disrespect to the traditions of martial arts as the style was developed specifically for the competition arena and not for self defiance, And the area of self defiance was too the traditionalist ( None Existence! )
( fair comment ) also as the freestylist generally wore colorful gi’s they where seen as cocky and arrogant by the traditional practitioners..

On the other side the full contact karate practitioners felt that these new freestylists where jumping on the band wagon and trying to be what they had become without the fear of real injury, and still today you hear full contact kickboxers refer to points as tippy tap

As freestylists also wore flashy gi’s it was seen that they where trying to emulate the glitz of the kickboxers, which was not looked on too favorably.

Ok so now we have taken a rather brief look at the psychology of the discrimination against freestylists lets look deeper into points fighting.


Like it or not whilst people want to do freestyle points fighting it will continue to be available to the public.

Life is about growth self development making a living etc. Not to say that freestyle is about making loads of money but as a sport it has to be respected for encouraging new students to the martial arts so with that in mind lets go back to the beginning.

It is true that in the mid 70’s there was a move from the traditional aspects of karate to the new full contact system so many traditional instructors found themselves under increasing pressure to compete with this new style seeing students moving to the full contact side.

So in order to realize their own security many instructors began incorporating fighting into their systems many of the first instructors to do this where instructors of Lau Gar kung fu and Shukoki practitioners as the stance they used where easily adaptable towards the attacking and defensive side used for competition.

Although they had incorporated new ideas into their teachings ( In order to survive ) they remained true to their original traditional system. And even now many of the freestylists we see today come from Traditional based styles.)

With respect to the flashy gi’s the freestylists chose to go with the new attire as it was less restrictive and more in line with what was being worn on the streets at that time a fashion statement as it was ( remember the old boiler suits?) track suits & lycra….. So the change was as much for practical reasons as it was for encouraging young impressionable students into freestyle. ( Marketing )

Moving on whilst the freestylists where getting grief from traditionalist they where also coming under attack from the kickboxers, as they where now known.

The change in full contact karate came about due to the risk of injuries and subsequent legal claims associated with this especially in America where a claim society was quick to take off.

The full contact karate people addressed that area by bringing in rules and regulations that are still in place now and at the same time the name was changed to kickboxing as the full contact karate label had become stigmatized and the system itself was under attack from many influential people in power at the time.

As with the kickboxers the freestylists had to bring in a set of rules which allowed for the flamboyancy of their techniques so as with traditional karate the freestylist kept a similar system. But opened it up to allow for expression of other techniques not always allowed under traditional rules the emphasis being on if it connects on the mats it would connect on the street.

Why Kickboxers felt that freestylists where pretending to be kickboxers is a mystery too me. Freestylists do POINTS KARATE. Which is totally different to Light continuous kickboxing and full contact..

It is true that many points fighters make the move to light continuous or full contact. Successfully it must be said I could name quite a few from the UK, but let us remember that many instructors of freestyle have groundings in Full contact karate/kickboxing or even boxing.

I would be the first to admit as a purely self defense type system it has some major drawbacks as it is primarily a sports orientated system’ however for people wishing to take up a less full contact sport but want to compete and be able to go to work the following day then points fighting is an ideal alternative.

There are many points fighters who think that because they are brilliant on the mats ”in a controlled environment” that they can do just as well with what they know in a street situation???????? but can’t that be said of most fighting styles????

And there are many instructors who’s background is purely in points fighting i.e.( no other martial experience that develops an area of self defense ) and they do attempt to teach light continuous or full contact without having those credentials, and unfortunately there will be more of them coming through with the new generation.

But save a thought for all those instructors who not only teach points fighting but other styles like light or full contact etc people like me who have a grounding in traditional karate, freestyle points karate and light / full contact kickboxing.

In conclusion whilst points fighting is seen as a poor martial arts substitute let us remember that Traditional karate styles and its of shoots as well as kickboxing and boxing all use a points system.

Let us also remember that many of the great fighters both in the UK and overseas came through the ranks of freestyle.

Maybe in years to come some of the styles emerging now will be looked on in the same way as freestyle points. However no matter how people see freestyle it has been a growth industry in the martial arts for the past two decades it bridged a gap between the boom times of Kung Fu and karate of the early 70’s to the explosion of mixed martial arts of the past few years. In that time it was freestyle points fighting that kept the area of martial arts alive not only in this country but abroad.

So before you look at freestyle with contempt remember how it kept the martial arts alive.

Bograt
13-Jul-2005, 09:58 PM
Hope I covered it ok and didn't go off track??? :)

Bograt
18-Jul-2005, 03:08 PM
Oh well it looks like I wasted my time on this thread :confused: I mistakenly thought it would open up some debate or feedback seing as there are some members who have totally ripped points fighting to bits. :cool:

Eiter the thread is flawlesh in it's analysis and well written :p or people agree with and accept the validity of the thread?

I just felt it may have prompted some responce? :eek:

Oh well :) :) :) :)

trej
19-Jul-2005, 11:23 AM
To be honest I dont look down at all on points fighting, simply because as a kickboxer I do points fighting aswell as full contact fighting. And so do many others if im not mistaken??

Mufty
19-Jul-2005, 11:46 AM
Oh well it looks like I wasted my time on this thread :confused: :cool:

:eek:

Oh well :) :) :) :)

Hi ya

well you pretty much covered it in that short dissertation. The history is good.
My problem on this subject, is that many Combat sportists, as you implied think that the sport they practice is also a Martial art I mean this in the classical sense. Also somtimes I feel that because they have won a few trophies they are experts. Somtimes their attitude towards the traditionalists also needs to be assesed. I think that combat sport is great, I love a good sparring session, but as a traditionalist, I never loose the idea that maybe sparring is for fun, and should be kept that way?

It's difficult when trying to put over a point of view, not sounding patronising. However I have won a few trophies, there somewhere around gathering dust.

'Freestyle = No style at all' whats your views?

Also many so called traditional styles around who claim to be centuries old, are actually in fact very modern.

Some questions to address I would like to hear from all you guys as I find this subject facinating.

What is a Martial Art ?

What is a Sport ?

How do we distinguish the diffrence ?

How can beginners know the diffrence ?

I look forward to hearing from you :o

Bograt
20-Jul-2005, 07:23 AM
Well I would hope I had not wasted my time with the subject topic as I feel it is important to access the link between the arts and show how they can compliment each other.

as you implied think that the sport they practice is also a Martial art

No I stated that some people who do a martial art especially one that is sports orientated rather than defence orientated win a few trophies then think they are expert at defending themselves having inflated eagos when infact if they where put into a real defence required situation they would be unable to efectively protect themselves as what they learn is ineffective which can be said of other martial arts defencive systems.



I too do points fighting and kickboxing and enjoy doing both sides.

Freestyle = no style???? I can not agree with that statement I see it as an extention of personallity and skill because whilst the system is sports based there is a hell of an amount of skill involved so is a style within itself.

1. What is a Martial Art ? a martial art has been defined as (any of several Oriental arts of weaponless self-defense; usually practiced as a sport) This should also be extended to cover all combative arts i.e boxing sword fencing and other weapons based arts etc.

2.What is a Sport????? Easier to let you read this. (http://www.stanford.edu/~sehealey/sport.html)

3. How do we distinguish the diffrence ????? the differance in what? Martial arts or Sports??? I know you do not want me to answer that question. As i'm sure people can see the differances themselves.

4. How can beginners know the diffrence????? If you meen Martial Arts then this can be quite a task I agree for some people however there are basic styles that stand out from others however the best way to check the differences are too research a particular set of systems or take part in them.

Feed back at last. :D

Mufty
20-Jul-2005, 09:56 AM
Thanks for that Bogart, I read the link. Well yep, but I feel that the definition supplied was ok but unfortunatly maybe there is a bit of confusion in many cases especially from the not sports list, anyway thats another discussion.

1 - No I stated that some people who do a martial art especially one that is sports orientated rather than defence orientated win a few trophies then think they are expert at defending themselves having inflated eagos when infact if they where put into a real defence required situation they would be unable to efectively protect themselves as what they learn is ineffective which can be said of other martial arts defencive systems.

Yep ! Agreed


2 - Freestyle = no style???? I can not agree with that statement I see it as an extention of personallity and skill because whilst the system is sports based there is a hell of an amount of skill involved so is a style within itself.

In many cases especially in the compeitive arena, I have seen people with absolutly no Martial Arts skill compete, but they do show an aptitude weather this aptitude for competiting can be called the style from within is a good wquestion. I have also seen very martial arts skilled people who I would have standing next to me in a real conflict, completly bemused in competition, and not do so well.

I love sparring, and yea its a skill, very much so.


3 - What is a Martial Art ? a martial art has been defined as (any of several Oriental arts of weaponless self-defense; usually practiced as a sport) This should also be extended to cover all combative arts i.e boxing sword fencing and other weapons based arts etc.

I agree in principle with this, but as you mention fencing, there's another can of worms, the fencing fraternity have been having these same arguments, since the invention of dule. Adn still are.

I would rather say that anything that has points scorring, referees, and restrictions on techniques are Combat Sports.

So where dose that leave us any sugestions.

HEY! Do you think there should be a nationally recognised BA DEGREE Course available at University that covers the subject of the Martial arts, with a Post Grad Doctorship??????


4 - How do we distinguish the diffrence ????? the differance in what? Martial arts or Sports??? I know you do not want me to answer that question. As i'm sure people can see the differances themselves.

The problem here is that they can't sorry :bang:


5 - How can beginners know the diffrence????? If you mean Martial Arts then this can be quite a task I agree for some people however there are basic styles that stand out from others however the best way to check the differences are too research a particular set of systems or take part in them.

Right on - But how many people research the subject of martial arts as many of newbee students who turn up to train already know everything, based upon no information. We have people training with us who found us after many years trawling through many clubs and associations not finding what they want. As you say it is a task.

Bograt
20-Jul-2005, 11:35 AM
I understand your view on competitions there are many students who show skill but are useless of the mat however there are many of these comming through the ranks and turning to kickboxing as they try to justify without having the credentials. That only puts pressure on instructors like me who do have the credential but are the tared with the sam brush.

No I don't think there should be a BA course look at the NVQ's total waste of time as each instructor teaches differently due to thiere teachings or physical abilities. And most good assocciations have programes in place which would blow an NVQ and even a BA out of the water.

With your statement on What a martial art is you said

I would rather say that anything that has points scorring, referees, and restrictions on techniques are Combat Sports.

What about internal martial arts??????

Finally it is a task finding out about different martial arts however most people in martial arts will have trained in different styles / systems untill they stumble on a system that works for them. How many people come on MAP and ask " What style / MA for me"? how the hell can we tell them what style is for them? It is up to them to decide and up to us to advise as best we can.

jonmonk
20-Jul-2005, 12:07 PM
bograt, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that martial arts should not be defined in terms of sport? I don't think sport has anything to do with the definition of martial arts. Many martial arts have a sporting aspect to them but not all (internal martial arts being good examples). The two words involved here have clear meanings:

Martial:
1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

Art:
1. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
2. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
...amongst others.

Nothing about sport in there. I suspect this is why mufty refers to freestyle karate etc as 'Combat Sports'. Of course, technically, classical karate probably has nothing to do with war either...

Regarding the last sentence in your first post:

So before you look at freestyle with contempt remember how it kept the martial arts alive.Well it certainly hasn't managed to kill martial arts off. There are still people out there practicing Classical MAs as MAs and not as sports. I have no idea whether these are the same people attracted to clubs by competitions and trophies though. IMO what's kept karate alive are those dedicated few who go searching for karate the way it used to be.

Hannibal
20-Jul-2005, 12:16 PM
I remember when I was first getting into the martial arts and guys like Alfie Lewis, Kev Brewerton. Peter O'Para etc.. were IT as far as I could see. They were all over the magazines and they looked the business in the photos and articles.

One comment in particular always stuck with me, ad it was by Alfie Lewis. This is a from memory quote, but it went along the lines of:

"I used to see the pictures of Benny Urquidez and Bill Wallace in magazines and they looked the business. Then I saw some footage of them and they were a crock of crap"

I thought nothing much of it until I saw some footage of Alfie Lewis - one of my "heroes" from those days - fighting...and thought it was a crock of crap. I wtached Benny the Jet adn Superfoot and was far more impressed. It was around this time that I realised I had "outgrown" the points-style fighting.

Now I just can't watch it because I find myself looking at it critically from a combative standpoint.

Now the skill level is high, and you have to be PDG at your game - but to me it just seems to be "tag in pyjamas". I respect the guys that do it, but find it dull to watch. In many ways I think it's light has been diminshed by the MMA circuit where the people actually fight. They seem to capture the magiation of todays MAists in the same way that those guys did in my youth.

Bograt
20-Jul-2005, 02:12 PM
Hi! jonmonk

No I am not buddy the actual thread was on freestyle and it's relationships with the other MA thouse being Traditional and Kickboxing and how history affected the way it was and is viewed by traditionalists and kickboxers as I have experienced.

I hope the original thread is the area we look at and not the sporting or none sporting aspect as it may be.

Hi Hannibal

One of the reasons I stopped my own training as it was in freestyle was due to the people like Alfie Lewis, Clifton Findly and Peel Ried but especially Alfie lewis. The reason for this was when his lot especially where at competitions like the FSK's he had a large influence on judging to an extent that no matter how well you or your students did they never quite got the points. That influenced me back into Light-con as you either win or loose no in between normally. But I still teach freestyle and Kickboxing so my students have a choice of what to do at comps.

I would be the first to critisis a poor system and as I said based purely on a defencive aspect then points is far behind other systems, but it was never ment to be a self defence system but a sports orientated system. However after saying that there is as you say a high skills level so as a martial context it has a lot to give via it's requirement to be quick on your feet, able to change direction to evade attack. It also supported fighters reflexes as I do know that I am a lot lazier with my footwork as a kickboxer than I was as a freestylist. Mind you that could be more due to my age. :)

Mufty
20-Jul-2005, 05:36 PM
No I don't think there should be a BA course look at the NVQ's total waste of time as each instructor teaches differently.......


A Degree course is an academic study, a common ground where anyone with the right credentials, as I see In you come together and learn the history, begin to understand the time line of our loved activity, clearing away the misconceptions and misunderstandings that seem to be so prevalent these days within our chosen art forms. Of course there would be a practical element a time when we can exchange views, learn about each others art forms. And of course you will specailse, this is in no way a political thing, its just there is so much crap being said, and done at our expense, like your latest dojo experiance with those new students from TKD , in the end we all get tard with the same brush.

Internal Martial arts are not sports, never were never ment to be.

Many martial arts have a sporting aspect to them but not all (internal martial arts being good examples)........



Hey Bograt don't close this thread it's interesting. Keep it going, well get there together.

:cool:

Hannibal
20-Jul-2005, 05:52 PM
Hi Hannibal

One of the reasons I stopped my own training as it was in freestyle was due to the people like Alfie Lewis, Clifton Findly and Peel Ried but especially Alfie lewis. The reason for this was when his lot especially where at competitions like the FSK's he had a large influence on judging to an extent that no matter how well you or your students did they never quite got the points. That influenced me back into Light-con as you either win or loose no in between normally. But I still teach freestyle and Kickboxing so my students have a choice of what to do at comps.

I would be the first to critisis a poor system and as I said based purely on a defencive aspect then points is far behind other systems, but it was never ment to be a self defence system but a sports orientated system. However after saying that there is as you say a high skills level so as a martial context it has a lot to give via it's requirement to be quick on your feet, able to change direction to evade attack. It also supported fighters reflexes as I do know that I am a lot lazier with my footwork as a kickboxer than I was as a freestylist. Mind you that could be more due to my age. :)

I think that you are correct up to a point. It was always a sports system, but unfortunately with the media being the way it is, they began to dominate the exposure and were often portrayed as the best of the best when they clearly weren't. Point in cae, Pele Reid - virtually unbeatable on the points circuit, but no chin in the full-contact arena.

I started to "get lazy" too, although I look upon it as being more efficient! I was more concerned with "will it hurt the opponent" rather than "will I score".

As I said, I think it was something that I just grew out of. It captured my imagination at the right time but was never going to have staying power. And having seen some of the judging you describe I can sympathise with your reasons for leaving the circuit.

Out of interest, where in Manc do you teach?

kickboxingidiot
20-Jul-2005, 08:23 PM
Alfie lewis said that benny the jet and bill wallace were a crock of ****???
LOL
hmmm ok
Yes bograt there are a lot of people at the tournaments who act like prima donnas and influence judges,..etc
just dont go back!
there are loads of tournament circuits around i think we need to draw up a tournament blacklist.

As far as Semi contact goes, I call it freestyle karate and yes there is a skill invovled unfortunately some people only use back fist or reverse punch so it gets boring.I wouldnt call it kickboxing though , totoally different skill, alkthought kickboxing and freestyle karate share a lot of common ground.

Bograt
20-Jul-2005, 09:09 PM
I wouldnt call it kickboxing though , totoally different skill, alkthought kickboxing and freestyle karate share a lot of common ground.


That was one of the main points to my topic thread. :) I'm glad we agree at last. :p

Point in cae, Pele Reid - virtually unbeatable on the points circuit, but no chin in the full-contact arena.

Another point I made with respect to defence.

A funny tale about Pele Reid. I remember once the fsk started fencing of the fighting area and I was asked to man the entrance, and this guy as tall as a house goes to walk past and I stopped him ( it was Pele Reid ) he let out a flurry of abuse because he thought he was important. I half the size told him I was doing what I was asked to do and did not appreciate being spoken to in the manner he was doing it he was warned that if he carried on i'd knock him out ( Wrong I know ) however he came back to me 10 minutes later with Pete Lewis and appologised for his behaviour. :)

kickboxingidiot
21-Jul-2005, 07:56 AM
Bograt we do agree that FS karate and FC/KB do share a lot of common ground but they cannot be the same thing.
It is possible to train for both but theyre different arts. Mind you if you teach both together and emphasises both well then more power to you!

Other hybrid styles exist in for example: Full contact kickboxing and muay thai.
One club i know of, they are of a kickboxing background and they mix some muay thai in there to give their people more options. Well on speaking to their instructor, it started off as a normal kickboxing club but then they started getting loads of thaiboxers in. The instructor had done a bit of thai before anyway and rather than lose those new members he began playing around with the thaiboxers udner their own rules. It later on caught on as a trend.
Now they teach a mix of FC and MT. THey have had people fighting in MT, in Low kick KB, in FC in L-con on the mats and even had someone on a K-1 once i believe!

The downside of this group though is that their instructor used to go on a forum that is dominated by Muay Thai purists and he basically got a slated as well as all kinds of threats including threats to break his jaw, to smash his car up (his car actually went missing at some point too).


You for example teach FS karate and kickboxing and traditional too ?
Your guys can enter: Trad karate, FS point karate, L-con, Full contact and maybe even kata/forms if you do them?

Keep it up Bograt. What i dont like however is clubs that specialise in semi Freestyle karate and name it as kickboxing. Or even lau gar calling points sparrign "chinese kickboxing" !!!

You wanna call it kickboxing? then emphasise the continuous sparring and padwork over the points game.

Bograt
21-Jul-2005, 09:49 AM
Bograt we do agree that FS karate and FC/KB do share a lot of common ground but they cannot be the same thing.


Hi kickboxingideot At no time have I said that freestyle & kickboxing are or can be the same thing.

Infact this is from my original post

Why Kickboxers felt that freestylists where pretending to be kickboxers is a mystery too me. Freestylists do POINTS KARATE. Which is totally different to Light continuous kickboxing and full contact..

This statement shows that both styles are different. Thewre are many fundimental differences between styles. The thread was set up to look at the history behind a lot of the stigma and discrimination levied towards freestyle.

As you say both freestyle and kickboxing share common ground and with that in mind a person with a purely freestyle background who has not recieved instruction in Self defence can be tutored for self defence by the introduction of basic kickboxing phylosophys, and as such if a person has the aptitude they could effectively make the change from freestyle to Kickboxing.

What i dont like however is clubs that specialise in semi Freestyle karate and name it as kickboxing. Or even lau gar calling points sparrign "chinese kickboxing" !!!


I agree.

In my case I don't teach kata just the traditional aspects for stance balance etc.

My freestyle syllabus is totaly different to the kickboxing. Norm has seen the stuff I do for kb and has also got some old footage of me doing what should have been L-con but felt more like F-con

BTW my smillies don't work I can only type messages.

kickboxingidiot
23-Jul-2005, 01:09 PM
Kickboxing is a very open minded hybridisied system.
Peopel will either mix kickboxing with karate or with muay thai.

When KB is mixed with MT, you can do MT/Low kick/K-1 and possibly l-con/FC

When KB is mixed with FS karate you have Semi contact, L-con and Full contact.

Id liek to see more style mixes:

e.g. TKD and kickboxing (and i do mean KB in this case and not TKD mixed with FS karate like a lot of those Black belt academies do and call it KB!)

Or even KB and Ju jitsu

Muay thai with Judo

Great stuff keep this thread rockign my man!

Bograt
23-Jul-2005, 01:49 PM
Well actually a mate of mine who does full con also does jujitsu i'll see if he can do anything with it and let you know how it goes it will be realy interesting to see how they mix. He does do some stuff where they kneel on the floor and punch holes out of each other and grapple at the same time a bit like MMA stuff.