Calling all athiest

[Trinity]

Calling all athiest: lets turn the tables i am a god lover can any of you guys preach to me and give me reasons why it would be better for me or ant christian in fact to be a non believer. What is in it for me (please no stupid stuff) why should i not believe in god and whats wrong with believing. Preach to me the good points of not believing.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

nothing wrong with believing, and thats not the way atheism works. its not a case of choosing to be an atheist because of benefits, its because you simply dont do the whole faith thing. Im a scientific person and i prefer fact over faith.

[NaughtyKnight]

Its your choice to believe in god.

Personally, I dont let some mystic belief cramp my quality of life. When Christianity was first introduced on a large scale, it was the darkess part of history, the quality of life droped a few thousand points on the scale.

[Coges]

Calling all athiest: lets turn the tables i am a god lover can any of you guys preach to me and give me reasons why it would be better for me or ant christian in fact to be a non believer. What is in it for me (please no stupid stuff) why should i not believe in god and whats wrong with believing. Preach to me the good points of not believing.

I think you'll find the last thing that athiest's do is go around preaching and trying to convert people to their way of life. It's up to you what you want to believe. Now, I'm not saying that I am an athiest but I refuse to live by a set of rules based in fear. Just my 2 cents.

[Trinity]

nothing wrong with believing, and thats not the way atheism works. its not a case of choosing to be an atheist because of benefits, its because you simply dont do the whole faith thing. Im a scientific person and i prefer fact over faith.
Ikken i cant believe in scientist because they change with technology "now that we can do this we believe that" scientist change there minds as technology gets better.

So if today they say that the sky is blue because (?????) then in years to come they may have better technology and discover that its blue because (????????) this means that they were wrong and only as smart as technology allows them.

[NaughtyKnight]

Technology is ever evolving.

One day technology will accelerate so fast that we truely will know everything.

For example, 10000 years ago they invented the wheel. No we use the wheel and develope thousands of things with it. Thoes thousands of things will lead to 10s of thousand of things and so on. One day we will know everything.

Science is based on fact, not some book written a thousand years ago.

[Maverick]

Ikken i cant believe in scientist because they change with technology "now that we can do this we believe that" scientist change there minds as technology gets better.


So you don't believe in scientists, ok. I presume you reject medical treatment and don't use electricity because it's unreliable?


So if today they say that the sky is blue because (?????) then in years to come they may have better technology and discover that its blue because (????????) this means that they were wrong and only as smart as technology allows them.

So discovering new things and updating theories and knowledge is bad, and basing your beliefs on a 2000 year old vague, varyingly intepreted book with no rational evidence in it's support is good?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[tekkengod]

So if today they say that the sky is blue because (?????) then in years to come they may have better technology and discover that its blue because (????????) this means that they were wrong and only as smart as technology allows them.

you honestly don't know why the sky is blue? :bang:

then you need to STICK WITH RELIGION! :woo:

[LiaoRouxin]

No problems in belief. Though, I'm not an atheist... I just don't belong to a recognized religion. I practice the ancient Chinese rituals of Ancestor Worship blahbity blah blah blah. Frankly, I have a belief in the divine but I think the whoever It that created the universe is has better things to do than worry about what I'm doing on my sunday mornings, and I don't think that Divinity has such an ego problem that It requires obedience from Its followers. After all, why should It care, It's omnipotent.

[Trinity]

So you don't believe in scientists, ok. I presume you reject medical treatment and don't use electricity because it's unreliable?

Come on dude i thought you were smarter than that, i mean a scientist view on creation............where we come from. I love to debate but please dont be a goose.


So discovering new things and updating theories and knowledge is bad

No but believing in something today that may be wrong tomorrow is.

and basing your beliefs on a 2000 year old vague, varyingly intepreted book with no rational evidence in it's support is good?:

I would not say no rational evidence, plus i am yet to have anybody prove to me that god does not exist.

[tekkengod]

I'm not going to preach to you and try to convert you, that is one of the main reasons i absolutely hate organized religion, i will never force feed someone my beliefs, i gladly explain them on an almost daily basis now. KC is right, one day, technology will advance so far it will be mind boggling, Ikken is right, most intelligent people prefer fact over faith/fiction. but not to say all religious people are not intelligent.

I have no need for an emotional crutch and find faith in religion to be just that, a crutch for the weak. I will give you a similar question. how would you preach to ME that christianity/catholicisim [sp?] is a good thing? you'll find that most of the sales pitches go something like this "have you accepted jesus? why not? its not too late to save your soul and attone for your sins. send us money to spread the word of god!"

in a nut shell, "why don't you follow us blindly without question? how dare you think outside the leather bound box we provide you with, and becuase you disagree with us and enjoy the basic qualities of life such as endulging in food, having sex, or lying in any way shape or form, you're going to an eternal place of pain and burning and torture for all eternity, but don't forget, god loves you anyway, be sure to give us some money so we can brainwash your children to an even more nazi-esh degree! my set of beliefs is the only one that is true and valid. don't worry about all the millions of people who've died as a direct result of marketing religion "

[Trinity]

Technology is ever evolving.

One day technology will accelerate so fast that we truely will know everything.

For example, 10000 years ago they invented the wheel. No we use the wheel and develope thousands of things with it. Thoes thousands of things will lead to 10s of thousand of things and so on. One day we will know everything.

Science is based on fact, not some book written a thousand years ago.

Yes you are right mate but if its changing, what is right today may be wrong tomorrow so how can you believe in them today.

[Trinity]

you honestly don't know why the sky is blue? :bang:

then you need to STICK WITH RELIGION! :woo:
Gee good one Tekkengod oh ya kill me he he ho ho.

[tekkengod]

1. No but believing in something today that may be wrong tomorrow is.



2. I would not say no rational evidence, plus i am yet to have anybody prove to me that god does not exist.


1. then why do you believe in god? we make an effort to disprove it, you could wake up tommorrow and there could be irrefuteable evidence posted for the first time to the public and god could be disproven just as easily as any scientific claim, then what?

2. I think most people will agree that a simple "We don't know yet" atleast implies that we are trying to search for a logical fesable answer, and sure sounds a hell of alot better than "Theres an invisable man who lives in the sky and created everything and is perfect and omnipotent" wouldn't you say so. I mean which one sounds more like complete and total BS? admitting that you don't possess knowladge and are trying to find an answer? or making up a story reminicant to that of a drug induced coma victim?

[Trinity]

I'm not going to preach to you and try to convert you, that is one of the main reasons i absolutely hate organized religion, i will never force feed someone my beliefs, i gladly explain them on an almost daily basis now. KC is right, one day, technology will advance so far it will be mind boggling, Ikken is right, most intelligent people prefer fact over faith/fiction. but not to say all religious people are not intelligent.

I have no need for an emotional crutch and find faith in religion to be just that, a crutch for the weak. I will give you a similar question. how would you preach to ME that christianity/catholicisim [sp?] is a good thing? you'll find that most of the sales pitches go something like this "have you accepted jesus? why not? its not too late to save your soul and attone for your sins. send us money to spread the word of god!"

in a nut shell, "why don't you follow us blindly without question? how dare you think outside the leather bound box we provide you with, and becuase you disagree with us and enjoy the basic qualities of life such as endulging in food, having sex, or lying in any way shape or form, you're going to an eternal place of pain and burning and torture for all eternity, but don't forget, god loves you anyway, be sure to give us some money so we can brainwash your children to an even more nazi-esh degree! my set of beliefs is the only one that is true and valid. don't worry about all the millions of people who've died as a direct result of marketing religion "
Mate this is hilarious just because there is some money hungry faiths out there dont tar all christains with the same brush that is childish what are you 16. Mate i dont have to pay money to believe. If my Pastor told me this he would not be my pastor, you dont even have to go to church to be a Christian. If you hear about Christanity from someone who truely understands it it would be better for you instead of coming to conclusions from what you see on cable. Its a free gift you only have to accept it and if you dont its your choice most of my fighting mates are atheist and one is a muslim.....All good........

[Ikken Hisatsu]

your attitude basically sums up why I try not to talk about religion with people. its quite obvious you started this thread to start an arguement about whether god exists and not to listen to the viewpoints of atheists. dont try and sugar coat your actual intentions it just makes you look silly. this-

So if today they say that the sky is blue because (?????) then in years to come they may have better technology and discover that its blue because (????????) this means that they were wrong and only as smart as technology allows them.
Is so ludicrous I dont even know where to begin. its called the evolution of science. sure, people get things wrong. they also get things right. but whats important is to look for the TRUTH. sure, some corrupt scientists will try and keep something that they got wrong under wraps. but look at what science has given us. you think god gave you that computer? who do you think discovered how to predict weather patterns so you dont get soaked on your fishing weekend (although, the accuracy of the weather service is still pretty questionable ;))

[tekkengod]

Mate this is hilarious just because there is some money hungry faiths out there dont tar all christains with the same brush that is childish what are you 16. Mate i dont have to pay money to believe. If my Pastor told me this he would not be my pastor, you dont even have to go to church to be a Christian. If you hear about Christanity from someone who truely understands it it would be better for you instead of coming to conclusions from what you see on cable. Its a free gift you only have to accept it and if you dont its your choice most of my fighting mates are atheist and one is a muslim.....All good........

ok then, for the sake of argument, pretend i took out the part about the money, the rest of it still stands does it not? :rolleyes: me being 16 does not hinder my ability to see things as they are and think for myself. i know, shocking isn't it. :eek:

[Trinity]

1. then why do you believe in god? we make an effort to disprove it, you could wake up tommorrow and there could be irrefuteable evidence posted for the first time to the public and god could be disproven just as easily as any scientific claim, then what?

Ummm then i would say i was wrong chuck my bible in the bin and become a manwhore....What would you do if you didnt wake up tomorrow and found out god was real?

Mate they have been trying to prove that god does not exist for like ever and they just go around in circles with no logical or fesable proof.

2. I think most people will agree that a simple "We don't know yet" atleast implies that we are trying to search for a logical fesable answer, and sure sounds a hell of alot better than "Theres an invisable man who lives in the sky and created everything and is perfect and omnipotent" wouldn't you say so. I mean which one sounds more like complete and total BS? admitting that you don't possess knowladge and are trying to find an answer? or making up a story reminicant to that of a drug induced coma victim?

Oh so you dont know.... i thought you knew that god does not exist if you are sitting on the fence on this then sit on the fence. Admitting that you dont know means that ummm you dont know...keep on searching mate.

[NaughtyKnight]

Yes you are right mate but if its changing, what is right today may be wrong tomorrow so how can you believe in them today.

How do we know that God isn't true today?

Science is backed up by fact, not stories, its alot easily believable.

[Trinity]

your attitude basically sums up why I try not to talk about religion with people. its quite obvious you started this thread to start an arguement about whether god exists and not to listen to the viewpoints of atheists. dont try and sugar coat your actual intentions it just makes you look silly.

Mate my comment is what i believe and what do you mean attitude "what attitude" i am disapointed you think that way....Did i say something to insult you..........all i want is a debate on the subject not argue.

[Trinity]

Hey guys please dont think i some evangalistic freak. i just like to debate so no keyboard bashing because i will cry :cry:


How do we know that God isn't true today?.

You are right and if it was proven that god does not exist no worries my bible will make a great fire starter

Science is backed up by fact, not stories, its alot easily believable.


Mate i find it easier to believe in the bible than to believe in science for the reasons i have pre-posted. So do you guys believe that jesus was not real either.

[tekkengod]

Oh so you dont know.... i thought you knew that god does not exist if you are sitting on the fence on this then sit on the fence. Admitting that you dont know means that ummm you dont know...keep on searching mate.

I was stating what scientist say sometimes, but once again, that sounds alot better than the drug induced equivelant.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Mate my comment is what i believe and what do you mean attitude "what attitude" i am disapointed you think that way....Did i say something to insult you..........all i want is a debate on the subject not argue.

why dont you try arguing about what i said instead of what i think of you.

[NaughtyKnight]

Hey guys please dont think i some evangalistic freak. i just like to debate so no keyboard bashing because i will cry :cry:




You are right and if it was proven that god does not exist no worries my bible will make a great fire starter




Mate i find it easier to believe in the bible than to believe in science for the reasons i have pre-posted. So do you guys believe that jesus was not real either.

The Pope is having a great big laugh at everyone that is controlled by the bible.

Believing in god takes power from you and gives it to the church. Think about it, what does the bible want from you. Sacrifice. Why should you sacrifice your pleasure and beneift from life to some mystic belief.

[tekkengod]

"Life is the great indulgance, Death is the great abstinance."

[thepunisher]

Calling all athiest: lets turn the tables i am a god lover can any of you guys preach to me and give me reasons why it would be better for me or ant christian in fact to be a non believer. What is in it for me (please no stupid stuff) why should i not believe in god and whats wrong with believing. Preach to me the good points of not believing.

Trinity, you just mentioned the one think most atheists don't do- preach ! We have no reasons to convert anyone to become an atheist, in fact I think most atheist are ppl that before belonged to a certain religion, became disillusioned of the religion, saw the true colours and affects of it and decided to not be a part of it anymore. Most of us don't even know who else is atheist until we speak to them because none of us meet up in a "secret society" to protest Christianity, for example :). I consider myself an atheist but was brought up catholic Christian then protestant Christian before deciding to abandon the whold religion thingy. I will not quote my reasons for this here as I don't want to get another backlash as I received before on another forum thread.

Christian

[someone335]

I agree with above posts, I'm an atheist (and don't care about "converting" ppl) because there are so many religions, they can't all be right, and science has facts on its side atleast. Until they build a time machine and I see a video of moses parting the red sea or tons of animals on a ship I'll be an atheist. You have to remember (I'm not being mean, I don't know much on the subject) people 2000 years ago weren't smart, they believed in witches and the like, I've never seen a witch and I've never seen Jesus, show me proof.

[Maverick]

Come on dude i thought you were smarter than that, i mean a scientist view on creation............where we come from. I love to debate but please dont be a goose.


I think it's a valid point mate.

I'm sure you put you faith in cars to not explode, roads not to collapse, food not to poison you, aeroplanes not to fall out of the sky, these are all inventions constructed by scientific experiments.

There are plenty of things that will not change, such as gravity, aeroplanes can fly because we've worked out calculations based on the earth's gravitational field.

You say science is changing and seem to have a problem with this, well what exactly have you heard of that's changing and invalidating old theories?

Sure theories things like string theory, evolution etc have changed a fair bit recently, however these theories do not concern anything that will affect us now, I mean even if we are completely wrong about evolution it wouldn't effect our lives one iota. The science that allows you to post this on a forum is certainly not changing. A disease that might have killed you 1000 years ago can likely be treated now, thanks to scientific research.

Your comment really is absurd. I'm sure you don't appreciate what the scientific method has done for you, and how comfortable it has made your life. If a scientist is not sure about something or the evidence is lacking, the it will be pointed out. Only when things are proved beyond reasonable doubt are they considered fact in the scientific world.



No but believing in something today that may be wrong tomorrow is.


So your religion might not be wrong? :rolleyes:



I would not say no rational evidence, plus i am yet to have anybody prove to me that god does not exist.

Ok, this has been done to death...but I'll explain again. God by nature is an undisproveable, intangible object. God by nature is immune to rational argument, because it is irrational. But because the idea of God has no rational evidence in it's favour (go on God, show yourself 2000 years later instead, after the camera was invented) the burden of proof is on the religious to prove it's existence.

[Maverick]

Mate i find it easier to believe in the bible than to believe in science for the reasons i have pre-posted. So do you guys believe that jesus was not real either.

Seriously my friend you don't even mean this. If you didn't believe in 'science' then you wouldn't have turned on your computer this morning. What exactly don't you believe about science.

This might be a good place to point out that science is not a religion, it's just a method, of method of recording valid data about things supported by logic. You can be a religious scientist.

[tekkengod]

I think mavericks about tied this one up then.

String theory, now THAT is interesting stuff.

[NaughtyKnight]

The only "Atheists" that would preach would be Tom Cruise the noob. He loves his "scientology (sp?)" """""religioin"""""".

[thepunisher]

I agree with above posts, I'm an atheist (and don't care about "converting" ppl) because there are so many religions, they can't all be right, and science has facts on its side atleast. Until they build a time machine and I see a video of moses parting the red sea or tons of animals on a ship I'll be an atheist. You have to remember (I'm not being mean, I don't know much on the subject) people 2000 years ago weren't smart, they believed in witches and the like, I've never seen a witch and I've never seen Jesus, show me proof.

someone335, I have the same attitude as you. I think also the stories of the bible are stories that could have been something small that happened that got hyped up through generations and if we had the chance to look back at what really happened lots of us would laugh out or be ashamed. Speaking of the bible, the "New Testament" has nothing whatsoever do with the "Old Testament" and it was probably written for the purpose of controlling ppl by holding their faith. Don't forget, before true democratic governments came to power, the church was even above the king in certain countries and so basically took up the zepter of being a leader of the ppl. But leaders can be corrupt ! There have been many religious wars, if it is to be believed women known to be witches have been burned at the cross and multiple other religions have been tried to be reduced in power, like now the muslim believe.

Yes, there are many good purposes in Religion like keeping ppl together, being able to make friends, caring for one another, etc. but in todays society we have many other groups that can pick up this purpose. Also, looking at the multiple cults that have sprung up the true purpose of Religion can be seen:"Give ppl something to believe and you can do almost anything with them:" My most recent example I can use their is my ex, who became part of such a cult and after a year couldn't destinguish between a non-religious person and a true anti-religious person. She called them both "evil" !! And its true what ppl have said in the above posts, in the past many ppl had no proper education, many ppl worked as slaves for others, etc. And science hadn't yet explanations for certain occurences. So the Christian religion jumped in and gave them explanations (and in some ways even made sure they didn't loose their power by instilling fear as well !). Today, science has given us most explanations, we know more now than we did 2000 years ago.

Whether Religion is a good thing should be left up to each of us. If you think it will help you in your way to understanding yourself better take up a religion. No atheist, nor a religious person should go around though telling someone else not to live their choice. Look through the history, look what you could gain from it or not and make up your own mind.

Christian

[Trinity]

Nice post thepunisher thanx.....i can understand your points

[Trinity]

The only "Atheists" that would preach would be Tom Cruise the noob. He loves his "scientology (sp?)" """""religioin"""""".
Tom cruise being an athiest is enough to make somebody become the pope.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

err tom cruise believes an alien leader brought like 60 million beings to earth and blew them all up, and those souls still pester us now. i dont think that has much to do with atheism (or sanity)

[NaughtyKnight]

He is a wierdo. God I hate him!

I dont consider myself an Atheism really. I just dont care.

[Trinity]

Seriously my friend you don't even mean this. If you didn't believe in 'science' then you wouldn't have turned on your computer this morning. What exactly don't you believe about science.

This might be a good place to point out that science is not a religion, it's just a method, of method of recording valid data about things supported by logic. You can be a religious scientist.
Oh man Ok sorry of course i believe in science what i dont believe in is the explanation that science gives on our beginnings.................

I think what we can all agree on is that you guys wont believe until science proves it and i will believe until science proves that god does not exist.

Im going back to the garage fighting thread :D

[gedhab]

He is a wierdo. God I hate him!

I dont consider myself an Atheism really. I just dont care.

eh...that's atheist! ;)

[NaughtyKnight]

No, not really. Athiests dont believe in god. I dont care either way.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

thats agnostic. (fence sitter)

i suppose i am too. i plan to repent on my death bed to keep my bases covered ;)

[Trinity]

No, not really. Athiests dont believe in god. I dont care either way.
eh der...thats athiest lol rofl

i thought i better explain Before any gooses pounce on me i was paying out on gedhab comment shot outa nowwhere

[Trinity]

thats agnostic. (fence sitter)

i suppose i am too. i plan to repent on my death bed to keep my bases covered ;)
^ LOL^ better safe than sorry

[NaughtyKnight]

Dont worry mate, I understood you. ;)

Must be the Australian connection. :D

[NaughtyKnight]

thats agnostic. (fence sitter)

i suppose i am too. i plan to repent on my death bed to keep my bases covered ;)

Ditto to that mate.

[Aegis]

Ahh, Pascal's Wager taken to a fairly extreme version ;)

[pgm316]

nothing wrong with believing, and thats not the way atheism works. its not a case of choosing to be an atheist because of benefits, its because you simply dont do the whole faith thing. Im a scientific person and i prefer fact over faith.

Theres so many unknowns about the universer that its hard to use the word fact. I'm not a believer myself, but quantum physics is almost as unbeleavable anyway! :D

[CKava]

Ikken i cant believe in scientist because they change with technology "now that we can do this we believe that" scientist change there minds as technology gets better.
So lets break your argument down here... you think that because science is willing to make changes in the face of new evidence this makes it less 'believeable' than religion which offers eternal 'truths'. Ok, first of show me a religion that hasn't changed and developed its theories since its conception and I'll be very suprised, some religions have even been forced to change their 'eternal truths' in light of overwhelming scientific evidence... Galileo and so on. Secondly, as Maverick has pointed out the notion that scientific fact rewrites itself everyday is non-sensical if scientists were working with a constantly shifting set of rules and expectations then there would be no progress. Scientific theories such as gravity will not be proved false you might get small amendments to the theory but in relation to everyday situations these have basically no impact.

Take relativity for example; that incredible scientific breakthrough which challenged a lot of classic physics laws... why do you think those same law are still taught as science in schools? (F=ma etc.) Its because it only really challenged them at the extreme end of the spectrum i.e. when approaching the speed of light. The changes become important when you start dealing with things that are moving immensely fast but without science and the classic laws no-one would have got to a stage where they can actively make things go at such speeds (particle accelerators etc.). Scientific progress relies on new developments and later amendments are rarely seen as distorting some original 'true' message. Unfortunately for your argument its simply not the case that every time a new theory comes out scientists run around burning all of their old text books and crying that all their equations wont work now.

To illustrate further the area of most dramatic change in science today is probably in the quantum field and the nice thing about quantum theories is that as the name suggests they are dealing with incredibly small things. Once you get to the nano size yes it does turn out that electrons and such act as both particles and waves but again this has basically no relevance to how things operate in everyday life, classical physics reigns supreme in the macro sized world. Newtons laws would be of more use to most people than knowledge of Plancks constant or Heisenbergs uncertainty principle.

As mentioned above most of the new developments only change things at the extreme end of the spectrum i.e. when things get very very small or very fast and also once again there would be no way of knowing any of this without having the development of super high powered microscopey things which was very likely to have been constructed using scientific knowledge based on classical theories.

So if today they say that the sky is blue because (?????) then in years to come they may have better technology and discover that its blue because (????????) this means that they were wrong and only as smart as technology allows them.
As illustrated above Im sorry Trinity but the reason the sky is blue won't change as that is science on the macro scale and we know enough about light refraction and all that jazz to give an entirely plausible and testable explanation of what makes the sky blue. Believe it or not science can also tell you why the sky is red at night too ;).

[tekkengod]

and why the grass is green ;) why birds sing too; science can tell you all of that. :)

[Trinity]

I was using the sky is blue as an example.......Ok the creation of the world, the world is X years old as technoligy gets better wont and hasnt scientific points on these changed. Science of course i believe inscience all i dont believe is how science thinks the world began.....and god does not even come into the picture.

[Trinity]

Thanx Ckava good points......Guys i said it before i think i will believe until science proves otherwise and you guy wont believe until science proves otherwise and we all will find out who is wrong or write in the end and if you guys are write nothin lost for me......
I guess i like to go againts the norm like somebody said before more and more people are becoming athiest i dont like to be twisted by society just because its the norm to become an atheist i have read the bible and read bits of the quaran (spellcheck) I made the choice to believe in the bible....Thanx for you input guys well most of u you anyways.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

most people dont become atheists just because it makes them cool, you know. and I am pretty sure that some large majority like 90% of the worlds population is religious in some way

[NaughtyKnight]

Easily 90% would be religious, probably more.

People in the West have the choice to believe or not, other countries dont.

[Eero]

I never choose to become an atheist. It's just the way I have been most of my life.

I was raised up to believe in humanism and almost my whole family is analytical in thinking. My big brother is a scientist and my little brother is going to be an engineer. (Why I study business I don't know :( My Mother is truly gifted in mathematics, sadly she has not got the change to make a career out of it or something similar.

I believe in value of human life and I believe my personality will fade away to darkness when I die.

To me atheism is just the natural and logical way of thinking. I see know evidence to support the claims of Christianity or any similar religion so why should I held any such beliefs. I would rather be true to my heart than falsely claim love towards some "fictitious" creator.

[CKava]

Ok the creation of the world, the world is X years old as technoligy gets better wont and hasnt scientific points on these changed. Science of course i believe inscience all i dont believe is how science thinks the world began.....and god does not even come into the picture.
On this you may have a point Trinity, the Big Bang is currently the most credible theory but the fact is that we simply are at too early a stage to say that new evidence wont be found that invalidates it. What is certain however is that the Big Bang theory is certainly the most fitting explanation we've got at present for the phenomena being observed throughout the universe today. And if any new theory comes along it will still have to account for all this evidence that has lead to the Big Bang theory; you could make a case that creationism does this (they do try) but I think most people know this isn't the case. Creationism works from the position of having a truth not based on any scientific observation and then works backwards ingenuiously creating theories to fit ANY evidence that is found. Which is not science.

However Trinity you can take consolation in the fact that most scientists don't dismiss 'God' out of hand. While they may argue that there is no supernatural force guiding everyday life few scientists would claim definitively that they know no 'God' kicked of creation. Sure there are scientific theories but when we get back to the reasons why the universe was created it does tend to become very speculative. And for me the notion of a creator who sparked of the chain of creation is a much more impressive figure than one who needs to constantly keep tinkering with his creation to keep it doing what he/she wants.

[gedhab]

Easily 90% would be religious, probably more.

People in the West have the choice to believe or not, other countries dont.

What are you talking about? :rolleyes:

[NaughtyKnight]

Learn to read and you may know.

[tom pain]

I'm an atheist through choice - after hearing Bible stories preached to me as a bapitised christian I simply do not believe them. When asked in my religion class who didn't beleive in God, I was the only one to put my hand up (much to the priests dismay) and I was expecting him to try and convert me there and then - but I don't slate him over his beliefs so I wish he would leave mine alone.

I'm not saying that science will always be right - but I find actual scientific evidence much more reliable than just 'beliefs' because at the end of the day religion is - a belief.

[thepunisher]

What are you talking about? :rolleyes:

..World being religious in some way or other (very believable !)and that we Westerners have the choice to if we want to be part of a religion or not...which I think is something unforgivable in any muslim country. You basically grow up with a religion.

Thats what he meant to say !

Christian

[NaughtyKnight]

You dont need to clarify it mate. Hes just trying to pick a fight with me.

Guess he still having a cry over that horse stance chi thread. ;)

[LittleGirlBlue]

Calling all athiest: lets turn the tables i am a god lover can any of you guys preach to me and give me reasons why it would be better for me or ant christian in fact to be a non believer. What is in it for me (please no stupid stuff) why should i not believe in god and whats wrong with believing. Preach to me the good points of not believing.

If you are a believer, do not change. It is something to comfort you, it is something to hold on to. Maybe it is a moralistic guiding force for you... I will not try to convince you otherwise. I do not believe, and sometimes I wish I did. I'd like to think that I am a person of good morals, only my morals are guided by what I believe to be kind and good, rather than what a book or a preacher tells me. For me, the only time I will debate the issue is when people of faith tell me im going to go to hell for not believing, or sound as if they feel that they are better than me because they believe...

Some ask me why I bother to debate my going to hell for not believing if I do not believe. My pre emptive answer is: If there IS a god, I would like to believe that he is the sort to judge us based on who we are and what we have done in our lives, rather than whether or not we went to church. And if there IS a god, he encompases (I cant spell) all belief systems... christian, judaism, muslim, pagen, etc.

EDIT : In reading the thread thoroughly, Im very happy... a religious thread with no beating with sticks... Its a relief.

Now someone mentioned the super string theory... interesting it is... I had mentioned it some chi post.. Id like to once again whore the book "The Celestine Prophecy" .. It is a fictional book. But it is an excellent read. The reason Im whoring it in this context is its intertwining of science and spirituality. It speaks of people and plants ..(and other stuff).. vibrating at different frequencies, making me think of the string theory...and it is very spiritual...Its pretty awesome. It might give you something to ponder, the believers and non believers... maybe a hint at a in between road that can balance science and religion...

who says one has to exist without the other?

[ThaiBxr]

Okay, Trinity you keep repeating that you'll continue to believe until God is disproven by science. What you don't seem to get is that it is impossible to disprove God, just as it is impossible to prove God's existence. The notion of God is equally plausible as a claim from myself that on every planet beyond our observational capabilities there are exact replicas of earth, except where everybody has blue eyes. The only thing backing religion is a strong desire from people to believe because it gives them comfort. What is God really? He's an imaginary friend for such people to pacify the grim realities of life.

What problems do I have with religion?

- It is a system of brainwashing. Religious parents generally don't let their children choose and grow and see if religion finds them. They teach their children to believe in something irrational by nature, and tell them they are to model their lives by outdated principles which conflict with utilitarianism. They instill religion into them before they develop the cognitive capacity to question.

- It holds people back. I dislike how people deny themselves from greater pleasure out of life to chase a fairy tale. People should live for the here and now, they should live for the only time they are guaranteed. In my life I plan on experiencing as much as possible and enjoying it to its fullest extent. I'm not going to curb and dismiss my desires based on, again, a fairy tale.

- It doesn't make sense. It is irrational, unlogical, and simply just doesn't add up. Heaven sounds like a pretty boring place to me anyways, but you're going to try and tell me that for every other creature and species on this planet there is death, absolute death without anything beyond, and then for humans there is a magical land somewhere... of course nowhere tangible... it's just... out there for us. Yuh huh, sure.

- It negatively effects society for others. Separation of church and state in the U.S.? Keep dreaming. Thank God I live in Canada and not in the United States of Jesus. It preaches outdated principles, such as that Homosexuality is a disgusting sin... yeah right, homosexuality isn't a choice it's how you're born. So lets see, god creates homosexuals and then goes on to say that they are innate sinners and never stand a chance. It doesn't make sense, so what do religious people believe... they cling on to an inane belief that all homosexuals are such by choice, and are immoral people for it. If you don't believe that however then you don't believe that the bible is the written word of God in which case you really aren't truly following your religion now are you? How about mentally handicapped people who don't have the intelligence level to conform to religion... what are they, condemned to hell and existing on earth as nothing more than an example of God's twisted sense of humor?

- It effects one's ability to think intelligently. Many religious people just simply won't accept anything that doesn't correspond with their "faith". Instead of looking at theories, discoveries etc. with an open mind... they only look for ways to contend their validity in order to continue to align with their, "faith". For example, evolution... it is not yet an absolutely proven theory however it does hold a vast ammount of supporting evidence, and is continuing to grow in that respect. Yet most religious people don't even give this theory a chance because their fairy tale tells them otherwise. It doesn't matter to them, as long as it isn't a 100% guaranteed truth, religious people will continue to ignore any validity it holds and call if absolute rubbish.

[tekkengod]

Okay, Trinity you keep repeating that you'll continue to believe until God is disproven by science. What you don't seem to get is that it is impossible to disprove God, just as it is impossible to prove God's existence. The notion of God is equally plausible as a claim from myself that on every planet beyond our observational capabilities there are exact replicas of earth, except where everybody has blue eyes. The only thing backing religion is a strong desire from people to believe because it gives them comfort. What is God really? He's an imaginary friend for such people to pacify the grim realities of life.

What problems do I have with religion?

- It is a system of brainwashing. Religious parents generally don't let their children choose and grow and see if religion finds them. They teach their children to believe in something irrational by nature, and tell them they are to model their lives by outdated principles which conflict with utilitarianism. They instill religion into them before they develop the cognitive capacity to question.

- It holds people back. I dislike how people deny themselves from greater pleasure out of life to chase a fairy tale. People should live for the here and now, they should live for the only time they are guaranteed. In my life I plan on experiencing as much as possible and enjoying it to its fullest extent. I'm not going to curb and dismiss my desires based on, again, a fairy tale.

- It doesn't make sense. It is irrational, unlogical, and simply just doesn't add up. Heaven sounds like a pretty boring place to me anyways, but you're going to try and tell me that for every other creature and species on this planet there is death, absolute death without anything beyond, and then for humans there is a magical land somewhere... of course nowhere tangible... it's just... out there for us. Yuh huh, sure.

- It negatively effects society for others. Separation of church and state in the U.S.? Keep dreaming. Thank God I live in Canada and not in the United States of Jesus. It preaches outdated principles, such as that Homosexuality is a disgusting sin... yeah right, homosexuality isn't a choice it's how you're born. So lets see, god creates homosexuals and then goes on to say that they are innate sinners and never stand a chance. It doesn't make sense, so what do religious people believe... they cling on to an inane belief that all homosexuals are such by choice, and are immoral people for it. If you don't believe that however then you don't believe that the bible is the written word of God in which case you really aren't truly following your religion now are you? How about mentally handicapped people who don't have the intelligence level to conform to religion... what are they, condemned to hell and existing on earth as nothing more than an example of God's twisted sense of humor?

- It effects one's ability to think intelligently. Many religious people just simply won't accept anything that doesn't correspond with their "faith". Instead of looking at theories, discoveries etc. with an open mind... they only look for ways to contend their validity in order to continue to align with their, "faith". For example, evolution... it is not yet an absolutely proven theory however it does hold a vast ammount of supporting evidence, and is continuing to grow in that respect. Yet most religious people don't even give this theory a chance because their fairy tale tells them otherwise. It doesn't matter to them, as long as it isn't a 100% guaranteed truth, religious people will continue to ignore any validity it holds and call if absolute rubbish.


This is absolutely correct on so many levels i don't even know where to start. so i'm just going to have a beer in honor your superior ability to use inductive reasoning and think outside the box. *clap clap clap clap*

[thepunisher]

ThaiBxr, excellent and very logically laid out post. But you forgot one:

-Allows the believer to put responsibilty of life on something or someone else Basically what I mean here is if something goes wrong in the believers life he can say, I did something wrong, god is angry at me and punishing me for it instead of simply saying: I made a mistake, lets rectify this mistake and move on. Like this he is putting the responsibility for his life into the hands of god. Also, this gives the believer a chance to cling onto god us his saviour as in the case of GWB, who had an alcohol incident in his 40's and then turned to god when things went well. What does god have to do with him drinking himself half to death or him realizing thats not good for him ? Its his responsibilty to look out for himself not gods.

And looking at a more exteme case: using god as an excuse to invade another country. As if god went to, once again GWB, and told him:"As redemption to you getting drunk you now have to clean all muslims of this earth." God is not an excuse to start a war nor an excuse to kill ppl !!! And looking at the old and new testament goes completley against what god told us ppl: "though shalt not take another mans life".

Christian

[NaughtyKnight]

Good god, someone with Jimmy as his avatar just made an amazing post.

No point even going through just how right you are!.

Bloody good work ThaiBxr

[Jesh]

There is no problem with believing, the problem is caused by the so-called instruments of God on earth. The churches and the people who lead them have corrupted the true message. Where in the bible does it state that catholics have to elect a pope ??? And I could come up with many more examples...

[aikiMac]

I never choose to become an atheist. It's just the way I have been most of my life. I was raised up to believe in humanism and ...
To quote the words of Tekken, you were brainwashed dude. :D

[Andrew Terry]

I am selfish.

I prefer to believe that all of my accomplishments are gained from my own merit, my grit, my family. On the other side of that, all of my errs are my own fault too. I don't need a scapegoat.

As far as religion is concerned there was a point in my life where I spent some time dwelling on the subject. I took a trip to Italy, while there, I saw alot of gold inside churches, and alot of rags outside.

I have just started to read "A History of Buddhist Philosophy; Continuities and Discontinuities" by Kalupahana. I'd recommend it to anyone with limited knowledge but a desire to learn.

I think that religion was created to serve a purpose and it was served. Finally, as an atheist if tomorrow God is proven to exist, I will not change my way of life at all. If God is omniscient he will understand why I am ignorant to his lordship, and live the way I do.

[tekkengod]

To quote the words of Tekken, you were brainwashed dude. :D

:D yeah, brainwashing can work both ways!!! indeed he was.


Everyone should have a long hard look ar Thaibxr's post. and then think about it even longer and harder.

[NaughtyKnight]

There is no problem with believing, the problem is caused by the so-called instruments of God on earth. The churches and the people who lead them have corrupted the true message. Where in the bible does it state that catholics have to elect a pope ??? And I could come up with many more examples...

Exactly right. Its a pure example of the unserpation of power for personal gain.

The church is getting power from us.

[tekkengod]

KC is right.

as soon as we stop believing, the churh and god both become powerless.

[NaughtyKnight]

Well i'll pretend that I believe in God for a second.

If we stopped going to church and giving the church our money, it would die. Would that make God die? No. God (if he exists) would still have the same power that he has today. Without a formal relgious structure, we would remove all the bad (wars, unsurpation of power, cons, cults etc) and keep the god (faith). If you wish to pray at home, then good on you.

[Eero]

To quote the words of Tekken, you were brainwashed dude. :D

Heh :D I made it sound that way.

Still I don't agree. I was raised to believe in certain ideals. Those ideals did not include any metaphysical statements. They were more about scientific worldview, equal rights etc. And surely I was not brainwashed as my mother always reminded me to think with my own brains, not to believe what others say.

Atheism to me is so natural that I usually don't even speak about it in public. It is just part of me as Christianity is a part of the life of believer.

[Jesh]

as soon as we stop believing, the churh and god both become powerless.

Total BS... God does not derive his power from his believers. Remember, if there is a God... he was here before the believers, and will be here long after...

The only ones who derive power from faith, are the ones who :
A) Truly believe
B) Use faith as an instrument to further their own aims (power, money etc.)

[tekkengod]

think about it. if there is a god, and it is the one described in the bible. the only way he still has any influence over us in any way shape or form. is through the bible and those it brainwahses. if we burnt every single copy of the bible tommorrow, and stopped adhering to the commandments or his ideals. {which he violates anayway} then he would have no power over us at all.

[aikiMac]

think about it. if there is a god, and it is the one described in the bible. the only way he still has any influence over us in any way shape or form. is through the bible and those it brainwahses. if we burnt every single copy of the bible tommorrow, and stopped adhering to the commandments or his ideals. {which he violates anayway} then he would have no power over us at all.
Ever hear of Noah's ark?
Or of Passover?

[tekkengod]

if we stopped adhering! the bible is the ONLY reason religion has any power. just as the constitution is the the government.

[Jesh]

think about it. if there is a god, and it is the one described in the bible. the only way he still has any influence over us in any way shape or form. is through the bible and those it brainwahses. if we burnt every single copy of the bible tommorrow, and stopped adhering to the commandments or his ideals. {which he violates anayway} then he would have no power over us at all.

Wrong again. The bible is a man-made product, written and assembled over different periods of time. If God really is who he is portrayed to be, then why would he try to influence us by something that has distorted the original message. He wouldn't, simply because it has nothing to do with the divine. Remember, the bible are just words. Words cannot explain God or the divine, simply because it is incomprehensible to us. It's just like the size of the universe... there are theories that the universe has no end... but for us this is difficult to understand because we have no conception of "endless". To us everything has to have a beginning and an end, and this is the way we look at God.

Burning bibles won't help a thing. The only thing it would accomplish is that maybe the power of the church (which has significantly diminished over the years) will be affected. And I think THAT would be a good thing.

Also, religion doesn't have power exclusively because of the bible. How about money ???

[tekkengod]

1. The bible is a man-made product,

2. If God really is who he is portrayed to be, then why would he try to influence us by something that has distorted the original message.

3. simply because it is incomprehensible to us.

4. Burning bibles won't help a thing. The only thing it would accomplish is that maybe the power of the church (which has significantly diminished over the years) will be affected. And I think THAT would be a good thing.

1. EXACTLY!!!! SO PEOPLE NEED TO STOP TAKING TO HEART AS TRUTH!!! MEN LIE!!!

2. exactly, why has he indeed? and why has he done absolutely nothing to help his people and conveniently stop showing up once we are able to record things? alittle to convenient.

3. more self serving convenient crap.

4. on this we can agree.

[Jesh]

3. more self serving convenient crap.

Just because something is incomprehensible doesn't mean it's crap. Do you think the universe is crap, just because you can't understand it ??? I didn't think so...

You've obviously missed the point of my post entirely... but I'm off to work soon (nightshift :() So, I'll get back to you on this tomorrow...

[tekkengod]

Just because something is incomprehensible doesn't mean it's crap. Do you think the universe is crap, just because you can't understand it ??? I didn't think so...

You've obviously missed the point of my post entirely... but I'm off to work soon (nightshift :() So, I'll get back to you on this tomorrow...

The point i made there was that it is convenient and self serving for the religious. which makes it crap.

[Eero]

Just because something is incomprehensible doesn't mean it's crap. Do you think the universe is crap, just because you can't understand it ??? I didn't think so...

it is meaningful to talk about the existence of god only if we have exact details of what we are talking about. If you depict god as incomprehensible you really can't talk about if he exist or not because you don't even know what you are talking about! :confused: I'm sure there are many things incomprehensible to me but I see no reason why I should believe in Bible because of that. It doesn't make any sense. :bang:

[Jesh]

The point i made there was that it is convenient and self serving for the religious. which makes it crap.

So do you really think that it are only the religious who use self-serving ideology ??? Surely you must be joking. (see my thread on Pax Neo-Tech)

it is meaningful to talk about the existence of god only if we have exact details of what we are talking about. If you depict god as incomprehensible you really can't talk about if he exist or not because you don't even know what you are talking about!

I do not claim to be an authority on God. I come from a religious familiy, but I have broken away from the church a long time ago and are a sceptic you might say. Always ask questions, as they say. But I too understand that there simply are things that cannot be explained, or proven by scientific research (yet). The truth is, everybody has an opinion on God and religion... but very few do really know what they are talking about.

I'm sure there are many things incomprehensible to me but I see no reason why I should believe in Bible because of that. It doesn't make any sense.

Nobody ever said you have to believe in the bible. As stated before, the bible is only a guideline that you can choose to follow. The church has corrupted it's message, deleted or destroyed records that rendered the document incomplete... and thus withholding the public of information (for their own purposes one might expect), and maybe worst of all violated it's code.
So, maybe it isn't the bible or God that created this situation... but maybe it's the institution called church.