Does Kung Fu really work?

[Wong Fei Hung]

Hey guys , I was wondering since todays world there is lots of streetfighting and if you are in a fight , will kung fu really work in those fights?

I was scanning around and one website and it said it doesnt work against streetfighting?

What do you guys think , does Kung Fu really work againt StreetFighting ?:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Peaceful_John]

Kung fu - in western terms - just basically means "chinese martial arts" which particular chinese martial art are you speaking of?

There is no such style as "kung fu" there are only styles of kung fu, or styles of chinese martial arts.

[Wong Fei Hung]

I know but I'm talking about all styles of Kung Fu like Shaolin.

There , Shaolin , will Shaolin work against StreetFighting?

[Peaceful_John]

Against your average ruffian, yes, I would think it would be very effective. However, if you are looking for a streetfighting art, there are more practical decisions. Any style of kung fu would be good in a street fight (as apposed to no style) but a style like, say, Mai Thai would probably be better in that situation. If I had the choice of any quality school in the world, I would pick a chinese martial art, but then again I'm not a street fighter.

To make a long answer short:

Yes - It would be great in a street fight

BUT - there are probably better styles for street fighting.

Just my opinion though.

[Wong Fei Hung]

Thanks Peaceful John,

As long as the Style is effective it works for me.lol

[Peaceful_John]

No problem.

I'm sure others have some imput too, though. Dont' just take my word for it. I could be biast:). I'm looking into "Kook Sul Won" myself. It's a newer korean art, but looks pretty affective. I'm supposed to go watch a class in a couple of days. It's not the first style I would have picked. There is a nearby school that teaches a style of kung fu, but it isn't of very good quality.

In my opinion, it's more important to take a style that may not have been your first decision that has a quality instructor than a style you like with a crap instructor.

[Wong Fei Hung]

Always got to check out the Instructor before you go.

Tomorrow I might go check out this instructor .
If he is good I might go there.

Also for some reason Books work out for me though.lol

[WhiteWizard]

i would think a style of kung fu would work in a street fight as long as your are taught to apply it properly but then again a kick in the balls is as effective a technique you can get for ending a fight :D

[keef]

I dont know a huge amount about Shaolin (presume you are refering to lohan?) but I personally think that the main thing is not the system (as long as it is rounded) but the way it is taught and the attributes of the person learning that makes Kung Fu effective or not!

Not many people can be found using "real kung-fu" most revert back to playground fighting with no flavour when sparring for example.

The ones whom are taught correctly and have the right apptitude will have good combat skills.

[johndoch]

On the street you may not fight in the stylised manner of your art but when you train in the MA's you should have a greater appreciation of confrontation, higher fitness levels, better physical fitness, reactions etc.

On the street I dont see kung fu guys going into horse stance and all that "stuff" but when I went to Lau gar KF there was a good emphasis on Kickboxing, and set self defence drills (some good-some bad) so yes it should help.

[Darkflight]

When I started my Sifu emphasised that he taught (Mantis) Kung Fu as a complete system, not solely as a self defence technique. I would say it took 2-3 months of training before I felt that I had benefits from kung fu that I felt I could use on the street. Taijutsu on the other hand I learnt such techniques in my first session.

So I would agree with the others, it can certainly be used, it makes me feel safer certainly, and i'm confident in using some of the techniques i've learnt, but if I wanted to concentrate on practical application of techniques I would do another art. As it stands I do two, best of both worlds :)

[keef]

JohnDoch,

Ummm do you often come across street fights and them quiz them what style if any they do?

My sifu certianluses stances when sparring! I have been taken down to the floor many times with the seven star stance, without the stance the leverage would not be there for the takedown. Admitedly the stance is not as low as you normally practice but it is there! If I cant use the techniques I am taught I might as well revert back to scrap tactics, this may not be the case if the art is purely taught for health benefits or performace related.

I agree with you though on your other comments

[johndoch]

I've seen and been in quite a few street fights and yes I do tend to analyse. I would say that most street fights turn out to start with a front kick or straight punching followed by either somone going straight to the deck or a clinch then someone on the deck. What I have seen is very little style in most fights, maybe a bit of boxing & judo.

Keef, When you say revert back to scrapping thats basically what streetfights are about you've just gotta go with your instincts and hope that your training has given you instinctive options that work outside the dojo.

[keef]

Johndoch,

What you are stating is what I am trying to get across that if you are trained correctly when underpressure (street scenario) your kungfu skills should be applied instinctively rather than unstylised scrapping which your opponent is doing!

I was just trying to get across the stances do have there uses in a street scenario in take-downs etc!

Anyway back to the point of the thread, in my view and from my experiences I do beleive that the system & the way I am taught can if the apptitude of the student is correct provide good defense, although as with any art it is flawed and favours certain techniques and theories rather than others. I personally feel very honoured to be in this situation. But I also think other factors come into place in a streetfight, ie. who is most sober (if drink is involved), awarness (ie. I dont matter if you are the best fighter in the world if someone just decides to smash a bottle over your head from behind without pre warning) etc.

[johndoch]

Yes I agree its up to the individual more than the style as the individual makes the style.

I would say due the nature of a street fight your kung fu techniques will look scrappy. Your Kungfu on the street will not be very much like in the dojo but it is still kung fu.

[Wong Fei Hung]

Some of my friends know a type of Kung Fu and one time he accidentaly got in a fight he didn't use his Kung Fu at all.

JohnDoch how come it won't be like in the Dojo.

[WhiteWizard]

it won't be like in the dojo as it is not a controlled area where you have senond chances time to assess what the other person is doing while not being in any extreme danger also if the other person is not trained in MA then they may not react in the same way as your training partners at the dojo

[Wong Fei Hung]

Oh , thanks White Wizard.

[PantherFist]

Fear, and the adrenalin rush, make a real fight different than in the dojo. In the dojo you can practise loads of combinations and techniques, but on the street that goes out the door, your mind tends to go blank if you have not prepared for a street situation.

Yoda is a great person to ask this question, he is one of the most knowledgeale people on this forum concerning street self defence

[Wong Fei Hung]

Thanks Chaz I'll ask YODA.

[AgentX]

What you must do is experiance in other ways of fight and try to
get strong.I mean proper weight trainning will make you tougher
,stronger and will help your hits.Even if you didn't study MA you would have greater odds than before to beat the other guy.If you add this to your trainning you will see that the odds are on your side...How many people study MA???And fight in the street??? BUT REMEMBER DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THAT TIS PEOPLE WILL NOT HESITATE TO STAB YOU OR BEAT YOU ANYWAY.BE ALWAYS CAREFOUL.
ALSO try to train with caution like you were on the street.

[SoKKlab]

You could widen the question and Ask Do Martial Arts really work?

Learning lots of techniques and their application in the training hall is one thing.

Learning to deal with the Psychological aspects of a Confrontation is another.

Something that a number of good authors have pointed out many times. A good starter read on this subject would be:
Dead or Alive by Geoff Thompson.

This is applicable to Kung Fu, as it is to TKD, Aikido, Muay Thai etc etc. The Psychological implications are the thing.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Wong Fei Hung
Some of my friends know a type of Kung Fu and one time he accidentaly got in a fight he didn't use his Kung Fu at all.



That would be hard?

If you've spent time learning to punch better how could you all of a sudden start throwing rubbish punches in a fight?

I've not always used blocks, but that doesn't mean I haven't used Kung fu. I've used more attacking moves with covers/holds etc.

MT can be a better style for streetfighting, but Kung Fu will be as good if trained realistically without relying on patterns! Maybe even better considering it has more grappling.

[white_sash]

of course martial arts work....
i think that its not only the techniques that you learn in a martial art that would help in streetfighting, i think being fitter/stronger/more flexible would gain you the edge over u average joe bloggs.

[SoKKlab]

I'd put my money on the Average Joe Bloggs anyday. He has instinct, intent and purpose on his side and guys who streetfight alot are very useful at what they do.

Martial Arts techniques work, when you get past the 'Oh ****' stage and Often by that time, you are on your arse seeing stars.

Do not allow yourself a false sense of security.

There is no 'Of course' when it comes to self-protection, there is only 'I hope'.

[Topher]

I think any style of MA would work in a streetfight in some way of another.

If someone trys to attack you you want to get that element of shock on your attacker by attacking first, probably with a kick, maybe a spinning back, round or side kick, or trapping if you know any.

If there holding a weapon, say a knife, kick it out there hand or away from you and give an attack of your own, like an outside-to-inside kick to the arm/hand into a back kick to the chest.

I dont think your average thug would try to attack a martial artist, you show that your are and maybe they'll think again.

[shadow joe]

Gung Fu Trains the mind to utilize the body, in that respect when fighting in a brawl it may not look like "Kung Fu" but it's processes and training will be applied in a deadly manner. This is highly true for Tai Chi, but less so for something like Wing Chun/Mantis where you would more visibly see the stances. I think a person trained in the internal arts like Tai Chi are at a higher calibur than those just trained in external arts like FMA.

The problem is that this training takes years, it takes 10 years, a whole decade to grasp a foothold on Tai Chi martially. Whereas in FMA you can come away with quick techniques immediately.



i read a good book once though that said "the external boxer becomes internal through dedicated practice"


so it' s all the same, another book said


"it was then I knew a Kick is just a kick"


- peace -

[Jazman]

hmm... interesting thread. In a streetfight I would think any training at all would help(unless it was horrible training) after all, even if you weren't spontanious enough to use techniques concoiusly I know that I would, if I had grabbed an opponent, almost instantly do something that would hurt him(not really sure what, that's why it would be instinctive) wether it would be simply to elbow/punch him or put him in a very painful submission move.
Good point "Homer J Simpson", I agree that the average street thug might think twice about attacking someone who moved like a Martial Artist or fighter. I also think that several of them, even if they were unskilled in fighting, would laugh and keep attacking (it seems to me that among some of the people I know respect for MA's appear to be diminishing. Of course after you show them a thing or two the respect is back :D)

[white_sash]

yeah i agree that peeps that are used to being holligans ( like football gangs etc) are used to keeping their cool fighting.
but it is like my sifu said to me, if i train some of the techniques hard enough, they will get imprinted in my subconcious, and i will be able to act on instinct. not needing to think about my actions.

[WhiteWizard]

what you always have to remember is that it is usually the first hit that wins a fight not the best one. this can be taken in both the physical and mental context someone hitting you can knock you down or hurt you but it can also throw your mind off what you should or would do so we cannot rely on our technique being sharp all the time however this will improve with training but unless you have been in the situation you don't know what will happen.

I still think that MA would work in a street fight but i wouldn't say fight as a Martial artist just take techniques that are useful because if you try to fight as a martial artist it could hinder you. and if someone has a knife my advice would be run like hell

[white_sash]

wizard, what does that say in your signature?
and what language is it?

[WhiteWizard]

it is the black tongue of Mordor and it says One ring to rule them all one ring to find them one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

[white_sash]

okey dokey

[Andy Murray]

White Sash, don't pay too much attention to White Wizard.

He's obsessed with 'Lord of the Rings' as you may have gathered!

[WhiteWizard]

guilty as charged :D

[SoKKlab]

I'm not saying that Martial Arts techniques don't work in streetfights, just that the Psychological aspect of any confrontation causes functional impairment, which can lead to you getting a whooping, if you are not prepared to deal with the Fight or Flight response, the Freeze or the Adrenal Dump etc.

Just because you train and train in the Dojo/ Kwon etc doesn't mean to say that you can apply those techniques cleanly in a streetfight. Also, the training hall is a co-operative atmosphere, a fight is not.

Streetfights tend to take you by surprise unless you know what you are looking for in terms of all the Pre-fight rituals that authors like Geoff Thompson etc write about. Awareness counts.

Don't be counting on the fact that you are a Martial Artist and give off a certain air, or you can adopt a snazzy stance and make Bruce Lee noises, to make you 'unattackable', or that you will put off someone who is intent on stoving your face in.

Someone who is intent on having a go, will not be put off by your
actions-they are intent upon a certain action-ie your destruction and won't be dissuaded by empty posturing.

Last point, in most confrontations, you don't get time to think about all this stuff, or prepare, or face off at five paces, BANG, it just happens.


Lastly-Kicking a knife out of someones hands!! Don't even try it... As WW said-Run from the knife if you can.

[Andy Murray]

Hmmmm

The misinterpretation commonly sold as Kung Fu doesn't work!

[SoKKlab]

With reference to all Martial Arts not just Kung Fu.
I know Muay Thai practitioners who have had a nasty surprise in a street situation, too.

Surprise being the operative word.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Hmmmm

The misinterpretation commonly sold as Kung Fu doesn't work!

True, people expect the impossible, it fails, so Kung Fu doesn't work :rolleyes:

Everybody has a starting point, some are much better fighters when they start then other. Training in MA's and even srapping on the street will make you a better fighter. Theres no guarantees Kung fu etc will raise your level above that of the "attacker".

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by pgm316
True, people expect the impossible, it fails, so Kung Fu doesn't work :rolleyes:

Theres no guarantees Kung fu etc will raise your level above that of the "attacker".

In one sense!

[SoKKlab]

The real issue is not 'Does Kung Fu, TKD, Muay Thai' etc really work.

But how the individual Martial Artist reacts under duress in a conflict situation. Dealing with the Psychological aspects of the fight is more important than what techniques you would theoretically use.

[white_sash]

someone running at me with a base ball bat would be enough to scare me off!

[Sub zero]

White wizzard, You missed out "in the land of mordor where the shadows lie"!I love LOTR too.Infact my bands called numenor.A little sad yes.

[WhiteWizard]

yes sub zero but that is not in my sig it only concerns the ring

[Joe karate]

Homer J Simpson:

You mentioned kicking a knife out of someones hand? No offense intended but from what I've read and been taught that could get you killed or at the least a bloody leg, can you explain kicking a knife?

[bishu-ronin]

i know i just cut in to your thread but what i think and know from when i fight is that you learn to apply what youve learned you dont necasarily go into a crane stance for a street fight just because you do kung fu you learn to use your strikes just in a regular fight. one other think even though styles like shaolin kill it depends solely on you if youve trained your self to be strong enough and tough enough, if youre a panzy just doing strikes but not on anything you arent really feeling out a real fight.

[XDemnEysKyoX]

Im also kind of cutting in but, I train in Hak Sao Do Kung Fu (the way of the dark hand) and in our style of Kung Fu we learn to use and fend off just about every style of fighting including street fighting. If anyone here lives out in So Cal near the Coachella Valley I could hook you up with some free classes. But to sum things up yes Kung Fu, and in particular Shaolin can help you in street fighting, much of Shaolin is circular movement with graceful but strong takedowns.

[Sub zero]

How can u defend against every fighting style?
There are countless hundreds.

[XDemnEysKyoX]

ahahahaha, thats not exactly what I meant and by the way I put it I can see what I did wrong. What I meant was that we learn to defend against and use nearly every type of martial arts, in a generic way, grappling, boxing, etc... sorry for that :D

[mig29]

Originally posted by Peaceful_John
No problem.

I'm sure others have some imput too, though. Dont' just take my word for it. I could be biast:). I'm looking into "Kook Sul Won" myself. It's a newer korean art, but looks pretty affective. I'm supposed to go watch a class in a couple of days. It's not the first style I would have picked. There is a nearby school that teaches a style of kung fu, but it isn't of very good quality.

In my opinion, it's more important to take a style that may not have been your first decision that has a quality instructor than a style you like with a crap instructor.

I only know for what saw from movies. I think Bruce Lee or Jet Li can fight in a real fight. :D
I really wanted to learn kung fu and I have access to the classes, but the teacher sucks. I wonder if this happens everywhere or just in Brazil.

[Sub zero]

Originally posted by XDemnEysKyoX
ahahahaha, thats not exactly what I meant and by the way I put it I can see what I did wrong. What I meant was that we learn to defend against and use nearly every type of martial arts, in a generic way, grappling, boxing, etc... sorry for that :D


Ah ok.I was worried that u were one of these poeple who believed that their martial art was absouletyly superior to everyone elses.

U know, the sort of person who would say "Lau gar is the ultimate fighting style,etc,etc"

I don't like that attitude.As someone else on thios forum said (althouguh used in slightly different context) "That is exactly what stagnates the martila arts".

R u form the uk btw?If their are any clubs of urstyle near by i'd like to take a look.Sounds interesting.(Not for taking it up u understand i am soon to be very,very poor.)

Thanks

[XDemnEysKyoX]

Im in the US, and the only other school of our system (that I know of) is in Beijing.

[Sub zero]

Ah.Maybe that's why i haven't head of it in britain.....or ever.

[tai-gip]

sory poking my head in... i would say the best stance in a serious street fight is no stance give the attacker no chance to predict you actions by providing them with a stance that may tell them more about what and how much you know than theres does for you cause there are some dangerous people out there .... now this is said being a given that there was no other option open eg running apologising pleading.

[speed_dragon]

o yes sir it works...i was fresh outta kung-fu i didnt take it long but what i learned i learned well....i was in a streetfight the guy was ill-dsciplined like most street fighters and not experienced he only went for the face and only threw hay-makers and jabs and hardly any combos i secretly enjoyed useing my kung -fu and i beat him with to quick powerful strikes

[little_monkey]

kung fu would definitely work in a streetfight. Then again that depends on where you go to. many schools teach tournament fighting kung fu. if your practice traditional shao-lin kung fu then people would seriously get hurt in a streetfight.

[cybermonk]

It all depends on whether you are learning real kung fu or not. If you are learning "Tournament Kung Fu" or "Contemporary Kung Fu" then dont expect to be able to control your opponents with your stance as you should, however if you are training traditional Kung Fu under a good instructor not only will you be able to dominate the fight, you will also have to be careful not to do something to your opponent you will regret later.

On a sidenote: There are many shaolin styles and althought all of them are effective some, like Snake would not be appropiate to use on a street fight as it aims for spots that would most likely kill an attacker...and after all no one is here looking to go to jail :D.

[little_monkey]

I think the most effective style of martial arts to use in a street fight would be Tai Ch'i. Using the opponents weight against them :D

[creamcheese]

I have never been attacked, so don't know. When I first started learning, I used to walk out on my own at 2 in the morning hoping someone would attack me. Now, i've got quite a few years, that time of the morning I stay in!!! But seriously, I can only speak for my system as I never learned any other, I believe that a good and experienced practitioner of our system could probably finish most street jobs in about 5 seconds as we work extremely close/short range and have a lot of body conditioning. I honestly, never even saw a street fight. Only in the ring and that's just not the same, is it?

[Mushroom]

I would have to go with the general answer of 'kung fu will work to a point'.
If you havent been in a fight you will crap your pants or be unsure as to what to do.
In class we always talk about "what move this does etc...". Some moves are unrealistic and some would probably work. Its just figuring out which moves.
Theres one person I know, he always asks me to spar because he does lau gar. He is not very good as he keeps going into his stance (legs wiiiiiiide apart and arms waay low) so i get real good shots on his face all the time, but because of his training and excercise he is quite fast and is definatly stronger than me. but in the end he is simply 'powering through' if you get what i mean.

[redsandpalm]

I've been in tons of fights before doing CMA so I always bring a 'realistic' perspective to my training. I think it is the most effective method of SD available to be honest. I used to be both bigger and stronger before (and it served me well at the time) but I have never felt in a better position to defend myself than I do now (and I'm still only scratching the surface of my art). I have only gotten into one fight since starting TCMA and I won cleanly, easily and very quickly (two moves, about 0.5sec.. should really be one move or less but I'm working on it) and without damaging the other guy too much - not because I couldn't but because I had enough control of the situation to have the option. I know one fight with only one opponent is hardly conclusive proof, but I have alot of previous experience of 'real' fight situations and I, at least, am happy that I'm on the right path with TCMA.

[axelb]

for me it has worked, many times.
And I have to say, with control over the situation, like mentioned above.

Is a good job that it's with control as I've nearly elbowed a couple of friends in the head after they creaped up on me.

[chapskins]

Just last night i downloaded(say's this with a wince, knowing that their maybe some saying, oh no, not this little chestnut) some UFC videos, it's got me thinking, would my training work years down the line against these people of a similar stamp :confused:

As was said at the opening of this thread, would Kung Fu be effective in a street fight, looking at the UFC guys fighting it's not that hard to imagine that said street fighter guy would know, should i say fight in a similar way as a UFC chap, now i know that these blokes are not your avarage joe's, am sure many have trained for many years in one or many art forms, like i say, it's got me thinking loads.

I had this thought, laugh at it if it souds daft, but, i'm of the mind at the moment of thinking that Kung Fu would be effective on the street with your avarage empty head who knows little/moderate fighting tecniques but put against someone who can have a scrap/take a punch, the court is out, am not trying to stir up a Hornetts nest here, just putting some thoughs forward

:)

[redsandpalm]

Do you train as hard and as much as UFC fighters?

[chapskins]

lm]Do you train as hard and as much as UFC fighters?[/QUOTE]
Maybe my post may have led to some confusion, what i was saying was that i was likening possible street fighters to UFC type blokes, my reasoning is my own experiences of street fights have led to similar scenes i.e brawling on the floor, rightly or wrongly, would not be offended by whatever anyone makes of what i have said, just thoughts, thats all they are, no i dont train as hard as a UFC fighter so yep i would most defenatly would get my ass kicked

[redsandpalm]

Hi Chapskins, I definitely know what you mean - but if you've ever seen someone go to ground with their opponent in a bar (which I have) and seen them kicked and stomped on by their opponents friends, you'll quickly appreciate why it's not the wisest thing to train for from a SD point of view. One on one, MMA competitions have shown grappling etc to be highly effective - but few advocate it as anything other than peripheral 'just in case' training for self defense.
It is important though with TCMA to remember that an opponent might try to bring you to ground, and there are ways of dealing with that (unless the same opponent is also better than you toe-to-toe, in which case you're in trouble one way or the other).
UFC fighters would probably kick alot of peoples asses, but if someone trained TCMA as hard and as often as these guys train and met one of them in the street (read: no rules whatsoever) I would back the TCMA guy.

[Humblebee]

most maist seem to have this doubt concerning they're chosen MA in a street fight.
UFC/MMA fighters never ask themselves this question because they know that they're style is effective on the streets.
Why do TMAists lack the confidence of a MMA fighter.

[redsandpalm]

I know highly skilled 'TMAists' who, not so much lack confidence as much as seek affirmation of their abilities, because they have never used their techniques for real. This is because TCMAs were developed to defend peoples lives, not win ring bouts and the techniques are inherently dangerous (they are largely against the rules of UFC/MMA competitions). You've heard of misguided faith in your abilities, well this is the opposite. Many TMAs also stress humility etc. and as such, even very skilled practicioners will not tend to be boastful or outwardly ultra-confident.
I wouldn't say I have the confidence of a UFC fighter, because I don't know how confident they feel when they're walking down the street, at night, on their own, past a gang of 10 people (for example). My guess would be - not that confident. Most UFC fighters are realists, they are aware of their own abilities and limitations.
I would not say I am a confident fighter at all actually, since you never know who you'll be up against next - but I have no doubts about the MA I've chosen!

[chapskins]

Redsandpalm, you talk a lot of sense, i totaly take your point of what you say about Grappling ect, it's something that we as Kung Fu practioners should avoid at all times with the more than one on one scenario, going to ground with one guy is a problem but his mates are following up with kicks to our heads, not a good thing.

What paciFist says is pretty much spot on, as a TMA their is this thing in my head saying will it work, wont it work, am thinking of a what if scenario up against someone who knows how to Box or say a Kickboxer, i did used to do Tai Chi for many years and had to use it once, it worked, i hav'nt had to use my Kung Fu skills i have learnt so far and hope not to have to use them, but if i do then i guess i may find out one way or the other

[redsandpalm]

What we do in my school sometimes is have a 'fight' with each other. Obviously the moves are performed with full intent but controlled (i.e. if the other person doesn't block it then you don't actually hit them, but if they do then the block is put on full speed, full power shots). Therefore the aim is not to 'win' (so no arguments about who hit who where etc.) but to train yourself to move effectively, while blocking and countering realistic, fast shots and attacks. Once you get good at this try it against two opponents and so on. If you are honest with yourself you will start to get a good feel for your SD abilities. - also, the opponent should not always be the same person, and should take on different styles: street brawling/boxing/kickboxing/grappling*. It is very helpful if you have people in your club who used to train any of these disciplines.
This training idea is best done once you are already a senior in your club.

*This one requires special training and can't really be done as a free 'spar' exercise.

[Humblebee]

Am i right in saying that MMA fighters have a completely different agenda to TMA fighters.

[redsandpalm]

Am i right in saying that MMA fighters have a completely different agenda to TMA fighters.Yes and no.
Professional MMA fighters spend alot of their time preparing for one-on-one fights with other MMA fighters. The level in these competitions is very high and so they have to prepare carefully for each fight by analysing the opponents styles, having counters to their moves etc. They can't waste time worrying about targets/moves that are illegal in competition, or the chance of having several opponents, or the chance that they might be attacked the 'morning after the night before', or some other time when they're not feeling that great! From that point of view their agenda and tactics are completely different from TMA fighters.
Their agenda can be similar from a self defense point of view though. Many professional fighters will aslo be concious of SD and so if you attacked them on the street they would use different moves than in competitions. In other words, they're not tied to the rules of UFC/K-1 competition. As I said already, many good MMA fighters are well aware of their abilities. They know what tactics are for the ring, and what tactics are for themselves (SD). What if you get a guy on the street and end up with him in an arm-bar. Are you going to hold him there forever while his friends kick you? Do you trust him to go away if he taps out? Are you going to break his arm? There aren't that many options open to you.

Sorry.... rambled again. :D

[Humblebee]

check out general topics and the thread titled is karate effective for self defence,It's another thread claiming TMA's are not effective.It's not well informed to be honest and i dont agree with it.

[TheSwordMaster]

most maist seem to have this doubt concerning they're chosen MA in a street fight.
UFC/MMA fighters never ask themselves this question because they know that they're style is effective on the streets.
Why do TMAists lack the confidence of a MMA fighter.


interesting point. I don't really think that MAist doubt there style its just that they know how to counter many of their own techniques while people that haven't studied in that disipline I.E. and opponent wouldn't. Also many of us haven't had the oppertunity to really use our techniques full force (on a person) yet

Also about the TMAist. I don't think they lack confidence its just that they don't want to fight. I have been taught that fighting should be a last resort. On the other hand MMAist are the ones that do things like the UFC and Thai boxing on each other. They are more eager to fight and KNOW that they technique works.

[ThaiMantis]

I would say the style of Chinese Kung Fu I studied (Southern Mantis) is devastatingly effective in a "streetfight" or a pub fight, or a classroom fight or any type of real fight where you don't have to worry about really hurting them, and youre not wearing gloves.

The whole concept is built around fast hard dirty "street" fighting, with the only aim, once committed to fighting being to disable and take out the opponent as fast as possible with whichever vicious techique from the barrage he'll coming be under, slips through first.. it's not showy, flashy or pretty to watch, no high kicks or showmanship.

straight to the point. ...nerve point, ..somewhere deep behind the eyeball as likely as any, if you're good at it.

where it's not so good is in a ring, under rules and controls (and particularly gloves) which take away most of your armoury, and its effectiveness.

[ubermint]

Please name the techniques that four ounce MMA gloves restrict you from doing and in what way they do.

If you can't beat us with rules, what makes you think you can beat us without them?

Chapskins: Speaking as one of those "UFC guys", I can say that you don't strictly have to learn at an MMA gym to learn effective self defense. What you DO need for effective self defense is to adopt our training methods: Regular full contact sparring, "alive" drilling and athletic conditioning.

Finally, I hate to quote myself, but I believe I have to:

Look, "the street" is not some mythical giant living in a cave, devouring babies and gouging the eyes of grapplers. It's concrete that people walk on.

[Infrazael]

I think the best thing to ask is, "how can I prepare psychologically, so that I can trigger "fight" instead of "flight", in a controlled, calm, deadly and efficient manner???"

[bcbernam777]

Please name the techniques that four ounce MMA gloves restrict you from doing and in what way they do.

If you can't beat us with rules, what makes you think you can beat us without them?

Chapskins: Speaking as one of those "UFC guys", I can say that you don't strictly have to learn at an MMA gym to learn effective self defense. What you DO need for effective self defense is to adopt our training methods: Regular full contact sparring, "alive" drilling and athletic conditioning.

Finally, I hate to quote myself, but I believe I have to:
I guess in MMA rules submission fighting etc, I cant be dirty, you know poking out your eyes, doing a job on the family jewles, bting half your ear off, some of the useful things that can get me out of your beloved grappling manuvers, thats the reality and the main point of difference between the ring and the street, and believe me when it is my life on the line I dont give a toss what is "acceptable" or not, if it works, I will use it.

[Shotowarrior]

Like any art you must make it work for you. Gong Fu is a dynamic art and is very effective in my experience. My main style is Shotokan, however I practice Shaolin Kung Fu and combine the two arts together in a defensive sittuation. But we all have to adapt.

"Follow the Way with honor, and be like the nature of water."

[Rebel Wado]

Please name the techniques that four ounce MMA gloves restrict you from doing and in what way they do.

If you can't beat us with rules, what makes you think you can beat us without them?

Chapskins: Speaking as one of those "UFC guys", I can say that you don't strictly have to learn at an MMA gym to learn effective self defense. What you DO need for effective self defense is to adopt our training methods: Regular full contact sparring, "alive" drilling and athletic conditioning.

Finally, I hate to quote myself, but I believe I have to:

ubermint, I would change "effective self defense" to "effective hand-to-hand fighting" because self-defense, or self-protection, is much more than just fighting when you look at the bigger picture of street experience, awareness, being prepared, and knowledge of the area and local laws, etc.

Otherwise I agree with what you are saying.

What I find about threads like this that question the effectiveness of a martial arts style is that you get different sides of the story but no one really ever seems to learn from it, instead sticking to their original opinions.

Let me just say that when it comes to fighting, there is no such thing as a style, there is just martial arts and rules of engagement. It does not matter if you are MMA, Kung Fu, or any number of different schools of training, it is all martial arts in the end.

Forget all about if it is a style and comparing styles, instead compare what you learn. What you learn is much more important than what is taught.

Give this list a try:

1) Seated instinct
2) Bad habits
3) Experience
4) Technique
5) Rules of Engagement

The list can be much bigger but I think this is a good start.

1. Seated instinct is basically what you learn to do at an instinctive level and what transfers from situation to situation well. Overly detailed and complex methods often don't transfer well outside the medium they are taught. So basically, how well are you learning concepts and principles so that you understand and can apply them. A good grasp of principles can give you initiative and a strategic advantage in combat, as well as being able to act with less thought ("no mind") and without internal conflicts.

Training that revolves around gross motor movements and footwork transfers well to different mediums. Lengthy set patterns, however, do not transfer well and you can't count on them as much to help you when situations change.


2. Bad habits are the bane of training methods. Handing back weapons to partners and helping them get up, or turning your back on opponents after an exercise, or bowing without being ready for combat are just a few that might be learned and have to be unlearned for the streets. On the other hand, here are a few other bad habits: dropping your knees fully to the ground (this is very bad on cement), focusing on one technique so much you ignore the other weapons the opponent has such as their ability to hit you, bite you, or gough your eyes out, or cut you with a concealed knife.


3. Experience comes in a few varieties but it basically means spending the time and effort in training as close to the actual real situation as possible. Full contact training, pressure testing, sparring against a resisting opponent, street fighting, brawling, etc. will all yield experience quickly in fighting. This experience is what can keep you from panicking in a real situation and makes you much more effective. Kata and forms and training such as that yields better form but is very slow at giving experience in actual fighting.


4. Technique is basically how well can you perform the details and make the adjustments to exercise perfect technique. This is like the icing on the cake. If you gain the position/situation where the technique is set up, how well can you execute that technique. Technique means almost nothing if you can't set it up properly. Just try perfect technique when you are lying unconscious on the ground from getting punched in the face. Got to get to it first.


5. Rules of engagement means how well do you understand and can utilize the rules for the situation. The rules of engagement for the streets are different than in competitions. If you can adapt to the rules of the streets then whatever training you do will be more effective on the streets, it does not as much matter specifically what training you have. If, however, you are really good in competition but don't know the rules of engagement on the streets well, then what you have that is effective in competition will not be as effective in the streets.

Most world class competitors would have excellent fighting skills on the streets too if they knew and understood the rules of engagement on the streets. The more ingrained rules of engagement are in how you train, the more limits you place on yourself.


So just ask yourself what you are learning and how well you are learning it, not so much what it taught.

[ThaiMantis]

Hey.

I wasn’t implying that a Southern-Mantis Fighter would necessarily beat an MMA fighter, ...that would depend as always on the individuals concerned and their levels of skill and conditioning. I was only commenting on the general effectiveness of the style. As for techniques affected, it would honestly be easier to name techniques that would not be affected, and I’m struggling to think of any.

The whole essence of the system is hand-to-hand literally. Intercepting and then “sticking to” incoming arms, trapping, tangling, and then smashing through. I was a dedicated and loyal Thai Boxer when I first met with S-Mantis, and was so taken with it’s effectiveness I’ve been a convert (as well as MT) ever since.

Specifically, gloves prevent effective use of the first two weapons employed in the more usual fights, (i.e. against non-SM practioners) ..Phoenix Eye fist (front-wards on, knuckle into the eyes / throat etc style) and sideways (hammer-fist) style across the nose upper lip, & downwards into the jaw joint, temples, collar bone etc.

But more generally, the size of gloves prevent (or makes very difficult) the bridging, trapping and controlling techniques the system uses to take control of the opponent and the fight. It just doesn’t work smoothly gloved up, and boxers have the advantage, and I have tried & experimented with this for many years, ..believe.

Not making excuses for it dude, but like I said, it’s not a system that it’s easy to spar in unless it’s against someone who knows what to expect, and /or how to counter or react, or at least put up some kind of defense.

…Sparring sessions that end in 5 seconds with someone’s eyeball smashed into a pulp don’t tend to go down too well.


On the “street” (the term makes me laugh too, …for all the encounters I’ve ever been involved in, not a single one was ever in a “street” ) that’s the least of your concerns.

Stopping him fast is the priority.

[Infrazael]

That's because SPM rocks as another no-nonsense, practical streetfighting kung fu style dedicated to destroying the opponent.

[ubermint]

Hey.

Specifically, gloves prevent effective use of the first two weapons employed in the more usual fights, (i.e. against non-SM practioners) ..Phoenix Eye fist (front-wards on, knuckle into the eyes / throat etc style) and sideways (hammer-fist) style across the nose upper lip, & downwards into the jaw joint, temples, collar bone etc.

No, not boxing gloves, four ounce, open palm MMA gloves. Those allow everything you just mentioned.


Not making excuses for it dude, but like I said, it’s not a system that it’s easy to spar in unless it’s against someone who knows what to expect, and /or how to counter or react, or at least put up some kind of defense.

If you don't spar with it, you can't use it.


…Sparring sessions that end in 5 seconds with someone’s eyeball smashed into a pulp don’t tend to go down too well.

Didn't we settle this arguement back in 1886? I'm not being facetious, I really mean 1886.

[ubermint]

I guess in MMA rules submission fighting etc, I cant be dirty, you know poking out your eyes, doing a job on the family jewles, bting half your ear off, some of the useful things that can get me out of your beloved grappling manuvers, thats the reality and the main point of difference between the ring and the street, and believe me when it is my life on the line I dont give a toss what is "acceptable" or not, if it works, I will use it.

Another arguement that's about as true and relevant as 18th century phrenology.

1: In certain MMA events you can do exactly those things.

2: All available evidence proves you wrong. There are plenty of challenge match clips floating about the web where people claimed they could use "dirty fighting" to stop a grappler. They all failed. Try the kung fu vs mma (john marsh) clip for starters. Then of course there's Rorion vs the hapkido instructor on GJJIA1. Get back to me after you've watched those.

3: Why are you assuming MMAists can't use "dirty tactics" too? Not only can we do the exact same things you can, we can do them from a superior position. Go ahead, try to eye gouge from under mount. I dare ya.

[Rebel Wado]

I guess I just don't get it. :confused:

Advanced martial arts training resembles MMA very closely. You need safer methods to train at full speeds against reasonable resistance to test out your abilities and to gain experience in fighting. Sport or safer training methods turn out to become very close to MMA, whether it is karate, kung fu, or whatever.

There is nothing wrong with MMA methods for what it does so long as you show respect to others and work hard.

On the other hand, sport techniques are "safer" techniques and in the streets, meaning out in the real world, there are more effective variations of techniques. These could include attacks to pressure points and vitals, as well as "dirty fighting" and such. These techniques need to be trained slower or with less resistance at times to be safe. There is nothing wrong with training these more "effective" or "deadly" versions of techniques at less power and speed so as not to kill or maim each other in training.

What I don't get is that if you are training for street effectiveness, why are you not training BOTH ways. MMA don't need to train both ways because it is easy to take what they learn and teach them the more "deadly" versions of what they already are doing, but to do so when they are active in sport can hurt their sport performance, so why not wait until they are done with competitions to teach some of those techniques? MMA type training gives a good rounded base for learning how to fight, a foundation.

If you never spar, never just get on the ground and wrestle for example, you are missing out on building a strong foundation, IMHO. Such training against resistance in a safer environment and using safer variations of techniques is very valuable. Then add to that your "deadly" techniques and you will be a much more experienced and effective fighter.

Like I said, advanced martial arts training resembles MMA a lot. It may not be part of everyday training, but you can ask around and see that many of the old timers did spar, they did enter competitions, spar or box or wrestle or actually fought on the streets -- they did not just go to class and work on forms and flow and learn how to fight that way.

[David]

Yesterday, i bought some "JKD gloves" to use in SPM sparring. Can't do a phoenix-eye but can palm and seize with not too much restriction.

[ThaiMantis]

Quote:
Not making excuses for it dude, but like I said, it’s not a system that it’s easy to spar in unless it’s against someone who knows what to expect, and /or how to counter or react, or at least put up some kind of defense.

If you don't spar with it, you can't use it.

Ok, maybe i didnt make myself absolutely clear. we do spar with it against each other. and its pretty rough, but only once its really safe to, and both students are at a reasonable level, have half an idea what's going on, and have conditioned forearms & hands to be fairly used to what feels bone smashing clashes aagainst each other. And when we slip through the opponents defenses he may get a little slap round the head to signify you were through and could have dealt him something much more serious.

SPM fighters know what could have been done at that point and are relatively respectful (and grateful) that it wasn't.

...however, other types of stylists at this point would not generally understand that a tap or a slap meant that they were through your guard and having no experience of what could then have happened will generally crack on, thinking, "didn't hurt" and continue grappling, boxing, whatever, without much appreciation that a good SPM fighter inside your guard and motivated to hurt you is your worst nightmare. And that quite possibly the fight was probably over a second or two after that first slap.

so you get unfair sparring sessions, because there is no appreciation from the other guy that he's been let off time and time and time again, until maybe he gets in front, due to never actually recieving the show stoppers he could have been dealt.

there's no doubt in my mind if a grappler gets a SPM chap on the floor, they would have the advantage. what im saying is that if it was for real, and you were facing someone good, it would be no easy task to do that.

I'm not being funny, nor trying to put MMA, grappling or whatever you do down, its just a very different thing, with totally different philosophies and hundreds of years of history.

if you don't believe me about SPM's reputation, do a little reading up?
i kid you not.

now as this original post was about street effectiveness and you seem committed to saying that systems of literal self defense that have existed successfully enough throughout centuries don't work where they were crafted over centuries, ..the streets.

The survival of the systems is testament to the fact that it really did work on the chinese streets, and people were able to survive due to it, and pass it on through generations, and think it worthwhile to do so.

so i don't mind if you choose to dismiss it because you think your approach is more effective, that's your choice. perhaps it is?

but I know who i would generally bet on if all other factors were equal.

like i said, i met it from a muay thai perspective, and i was fighting by then, never mind sparring. it opened up a whole new world of perspective for me.

you could call me a DMA - Dual Martial Artist, and i didnt study either of them for any other reason than they both work.

and as for 1886, I dont get you at all? American History is not my strong point.

[Infrazael]

Do you think both are equivalent ThaiMantis??? Or do you prefer one over the other???

When you fight, do you combine the two (literally and figuratively), or do you usually pick one???

Just curious.

[siulimtao2004]

most maist seem to have this doubt concerning they're chosen MA in a street fight.
UFC/MMA fighters never ask themselves this question because they know that they're style is effective on the streets.
Why do TMAists lack the confidence of a MMA fighter.

I think a lot of it has to do with media etc...

When someone mentions UFC/MMA, we all think of big tough guys slugging it out within a caged ring...then mentiong TMA (or CMA in particular), you think of Jet Li fly-kicking everyone while attached to a wire, or Chow Yun Fat hopping between rooftops fighting 20 assasins simultaneously, or a 60 years old Kung Fu master claiming that he's the best WC fighter in the world (and that's actually the real life situation, ironically)....yeah...not very convincing..

If I ask you to name a really good, PROVEN ufc fighter, it would like UFC tennis, as in names would be flying all over the place. Then I say name a PROVEN WC fighter (I'm picking on WC cos that's what I practiced in), some might say Wong Shun Leung, maybe James Sinclair...the point here is that you can name a lot of INSTRUCTORS, but not a lot of professional fighters who claim to train CMA.

This is mainly due to the lack of professional support for CMA...you look at Muay Thai, and how that is regarded as a national sport, how Thai champions are regarded as heroes within the country, how they are dedicated stadiums just for muay thai and there are matches every second day...how most if not all Thai kids would have something to do with Muay Thai at some stages in their life...

you look at UFC/K-1/Pride...how much money is going into these things...

Then you look at Kung Fu..how most people look down at MA in China, how the government does not endorse most CMA apart from Wu Shu which is really a fitness workout...how it's almost impossible to run and sustain a CMA professional gym in China...

A lot of ppl think just because no one practice Kung Fu in UFC then it must be ****...what I think most ppl don't realise is these things depend largely on realistic circumstances...like government support, professional takeup etc...

[bcbernam777]

Another arguement that's about as true and relevant as 18th century phrenology.

1: In certain MMA events you can do exactly those things.

2: All available evidence proves you wrong. There are plenty of challenge match clips floating about the web where people claimed they could use "dirty fighting" to stop a grappler. They all failed. Try the kung fu vs mma (john marsh) clip for starters. Then of course there's Rorion vs the hapkido instructor on GJJIA1. Get back to me after you've watched those.

3: Why are you assuming MMAists can't use "dirty tactics" too? Not only can we do the exact same things you can, we can do them from a superior position. Go ahead, try to eye gouge from under mount. I dare ya.
i am sorry let me bow down under your MMA magnificance

[bcbernam777]

Another arguement that's about as true and relevant as 18th century phrenology.

1: In certain MMA events you can do exactly those things.

2: All available evidence proves you wrong. There are plenty of challenge match clips floating about the web where people claimed they could use "dirty fighting" to stop a grappler. They all failed. Try the kung fu vs mma (john marsh) clip for starters. Then of course there's Rorion vs the hapkido instructor on GJJIA1. Get back to me after you've watched those.

3: Why are you assuming MMAists can't use "dirty tactics" too? Not only can we do the exact same things you can, we can do them from a superior position. Go ahead, try to eye gouge from under mount. I dare ya.
1. Not the ones I have seen

2. I have avialble evidence that Elvis is alive, dont pull out the word evidence without at lest quoting these all encomposing sources

3. I didnt say MMA's cant use dirty tactics I said that they cant whilst engaged in competition under set regulations

PS if your going to post back make sure you reply to what I actually said and not want you think I said.

[Rebel Wado]

ThaiMantis, your training sounds like good stuff.

Quote:
[color=navy]
...SPM fighters know what could have been done at that point and are relatively respectful (and grateful) that it wasn't.

...however, other types of stylists at this point would not generally understand that a tap or a slap meant that they were through your guard and having no experience of what could then have happened will generally crack on, thinking, "didn't hurt" and continue grappling, boxing, whatever, without much appreciation that a good SPM fighter inside your guard and motivated to hurt you is your worst nightmare. And that quite possibly the fight was probably over a second or two after that first slap.

so you get unfair sparring sessions, because there is no appreciation from the other guy that he's been let off time and time and time again, until maybe he gets in front, due to never actually recieving the show stoppers he could have been dealt....

...and as for 1886, I dont get you at all? American History is not my strong point.

The idea of the slap and what it could really mean is a good example of how you can spar in a safer manner with intensity and still also train in more lethal methods.

The one part about your example I don't like is what I consider a misconception by you. No offense intended, but if you spar someone else and they don't acknowledge your slaps, that is not disrespect it is just willingness not to give up.

I guess my point is that you will often meet people that do not want to give up. Many such as police officers are trained this way, to never give up. The never give up inner strength can be a major factor in keeping someone alive on the streets. If you want to spar differently, you go to let them know the rules, otherwise there is no reason for them to acknowledge a slap, it makes no sense to acknowledge strikes on the streets or in competition unless the rules say to do so.

Surely that is a great time to work on your training for immobilization and restraining techniques. There are many softer style strikes and forms of entanglement that might be trained in such a situation. Not to say it makes the fight easier, but it can still be a great learning experience. But I'm just messing with you here, I know exactly how hard it can be to fight someone using their rules and on their territory, you are much better off fighting using your own rules of engagement. I hope this came out right, it is hard to express this and I don't want to sound like a know it all or to be disrespectful.

Oh and the 1886 date I think refers to a contest between Judo and Jiujitsu. Judo trained using less lethal techniques but trained full out, jiujitsu claimed their techniques were too lethal to be trained at full intensity. Anyway they had a contest and the winner got to teach the police. The judo guys kicked butt over the jiujitsu guys... etc.

[racerpg]

I came across some writings that my master had put together, from either himself or his master that addressed that question and here is what it said. I thought I would post it.


Does Kung Fu Work?

Can you hear the ancients laughing? Surely they must whenever someone asks this question!

I have never heard of anything surviving over 4000 years that did not work.
Aside from self defense, hasn't Kung Fu given you physical fitness? Has not Kung Fu given you strength, poise and self confidence? Has not Kung Fu given you peace and harmony? Has not Kung Fu changed your personal philosophy of life?
If not, it is not Kung Fu that does not work. It is you!

Not really sure who wrote this but I just thought it was cool enough to share.

[samp]

I know this thread is old, but here's a video that I believe answers the question:
http://www.jokaroo.com/extremevideos/kungfulesson.html

[SickDevildog]

No you didnt :rolleyes:

[TheDarkJester]

I know this thread is old, but here's a video that I believe answers the question:
http://www.jokaroo.com/extremevideos/kungfulesson.html

If I could transfer my hand to a digital medium.. I'd slap you. Twice. With no hands.

Think about that for a second.

[sliver]

Hey guys , I was wondering since todays world there is lots of streetfighting and if you are in a fight , will kung fu really work in those fights?

I was scanning around and one website and it said it doesnt work against streetfighting?

What do you guys think , does Kung Fu really work againt StreetFighting ?:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

No. Clearly if it was on some website, it can't be wrong. Of course kung fu doesn't work. Complete waste of time. Not only does it not work against "streetfighting" it also wouldn't work against the Chargers cheerleading squad armed with pillows. Completely useless. Good thing you saw that site. Now you can go and study something that's really effective instead of wasting your time with kung fu. Something like GKR.

[Ziro]

No. Clearly if it was on some website, it can't be wrong. Of course kung fu doesn't work. Complete waste of time. Not only does it not work against "streetfighting" it also wouldn't work against the Chargers cheerleading squad armed with pillows. Completely useless. Good thing you saw that site. Now you can go and study something that's really effective instead of wasting your time with kung fu. Something like GKR.

Phew... For a minute there Ithought you were being serious.

[Guizzy]

No. Clearly if it was on some website, it can't be wrong. Of course kung fu doesn't work. Complete waste of time. Not only does it not work against "streetfighting" it also wouldn't work against the Chargers cheerleading squad armed with pillows. Completely useless. Good thing you saw that site. Now you can go and study something that's really effective instead of wasting your time with kung fu. Something like GKR.You're right! I keep punching and kicking people, and they don't feel anything! Clearly, something is wrong with Kung Fu! Perhaps I do it wrong, but now that I know some site support what I have observed, I will immediately stop Kung Fu to go do "streetfighting" or knitting.

[sliver]

Good choice. Perhaps in time you could become one of those speed knitters, and wrap your opponents into a virtual yarn cacoon before they could do you any harm.... And then the charger girls come along...

[onyomi]

Why is this thread seven pages long? It only needs one word. The question was: "will Kung Fu work against streetfighting?" The answer is: "yes."

Similar to another thread with nearly one-hundred pages on a different forum entitled "Is Shaolin-do for Real?" Only needs one word. :D

[David]

Ah, we're back to knitting :D

Now that did make me laugh! What, you mean a "hunched" back and short little knitting like movements aren't beautiful to behold?! ;) I think hakka arts are the aesthetic equivelent of duct tape. Nothing to look at, but mighty useful.

Better that than the opposite situation.

[sliver]

David, I here by appoint you official undertaker of the dead thread cemitary. ;) Man can you dig up a quote!

[Davey Bones]

Why is this thread seven pages long? It only needs one word. The question was: "will Kung Fu work against streetfighting?" The answer is: "yes."

Similar to another thread with nearly one-hundred pages on a different forum entitled "Is Shaolin-do for Real?" Only needs one word. :D

Because there are a lot of us who want to beat up on the poor sucker who asked a dumb question?

[domidude]

krav maga is for surviving the street, kung fu is for long life...
running is good for both.
if you have to protect a third party person: krav maga again...
:-)

[Bil Gee]

krav maga is for surviving the street, kung fu is for long life...
running is good for both.
if you have to protect a third party person: krav maga again...
:-)

Some Chinese martial arts may touch on extending life. But the essence of most CMAs is and always has been learning how to beat the crap out of someone who displeases you. Krav Maga does this as a weekend seminar, CMA does it as a lifetimes refinement of exactly the same skills.

[bcbernam777]

Because there are a lot of us who want to beat up on the poor sucker who asked a dumb question?
HAAA HAA, of course we do :)

Look Kung Fu works, karate works, Ninjitsu works, Tae Chi works, heck even Wush works, to what degree and to what level is debatable, but at the end of the day it comes down to the fighter not the system, can the fighter make it work? that is the question, if Gung Fu didn't work then it would not have endured as long as it has as a fighting style, period. There the question has been answered now can we get back to slingin mud at eachs others styles ;)

[Hoimun]

Yeah, whats with those karate guys doing everything in their foot work by 45degree angles? I mean even the rooting leg!

[Insomnia]

When someone is coming at you it can all go out the window, can you make a fist? if you can punch and have stamina that works a treat!

[Fong Sai Yuk]

If you train hard enough and fully drill the techniques into your head, it will automatically happen for you when in a fighting situation.

I started to study lau gar kuen from an early age and also dabbled in wing chun. I was 16 when all my hard work paid off. I was sitting down in my living room watching tv or something and all of a sudden my little brother who was only 8 or 9 came running in from outside in a total mess. An older lad was being racist to him. (I'm half chinese.. half english as is my brother)

So i proceeded to ask him what had happened and he told me that this lad had called him names and so on. So as an older brother should, i went out.. not looking for a fight (as i knew the lad my brother was talking about and we were not friends but civil mates.. we would say hello etc..) but to try and fully understand what had happened.

As i got out there i started to fire off a few questions as to what had gone on.. and the lad walked off.. so i remained calm (for once lol) and followed him.. got right up close.. and he just turned and swung at me.. it connected.. and as i had just stepped onto the curb.. i stumbled.. back off it.. i didnt fall to the ground.. but sort of like slipped down the edge of the curb.

All i remember then was i connected with two punches to his head.. and sweeped him to the floor.

My mind completely took over my body. It was that fast, i didnt believe that i had done it. I went back into my house.. because i had gone out there to try and sort something out.. i got names called at me also.. and what i needed to do had been done.. he still tried calling me names as i casually walked back into my house.

My mom was watching from the window upstairs (i lived in a grove you see) and when i came in she asked.. "How did you react to those two punches so fast?" and i was like "what two punches?" apparently.. this kid had thrown two other punches before i had connected with mine.. and i blocked them.. and i didnt even know it. I had also, side kicked his chest.. which i remember. The hours i spent practising on my sets, walks and hand/kick blocks paid off. Subconscienciously i had blocked two of his punches.. which if they had of connected probably would of seen him won the fight.

Abit of a long winded answer.. but a valid one IMO. Kung Fu, Karate, TKD, Judo, Aikido, JKD, Boxing.. are all useful in the real world.

Most street fights that i have either witnessed or been in rarely feature any kicks.. which is why im stunned that i actually kicked someone in the chest during a fight..which i remember doing.. yet i didnt remember the blocks? I would of thought it would have been the other way around? I suppose you only remember your attacks? :p

Anyway.. im tired, i've just got into work and yeah.. sorry if my post didnt make any sense. Im also new to the forum as this is my first post. Ive been visiting the forum for a while now and i must comment on how well it is run.. the sheer friendliness of most/all of the members here and the great sense of compassion you all have for your chosen martial art.

Im just glad that finally i have the opportunity to post here! After waiting a while for my account to be manually verified!! :D

Right then.. take it easy guys..

[oldman]

Fair Play dude

[Matt_Bernius]

Welcome to MAP Fong Sai Yuk!

- Matt

[Fong Sai Yuk]

Welcome to MAP Fong Sai Yuk!

- Matt

Cheers MATTey!

[bcbernam777]

Fong Sai Yuk you hit the proverbial nail on the head, a tremendous amount of the criticism leveled at the CMA's comes about because there are many practicioners who are not willing to sacrifice the time, energy and effort necessary for hard training. It is a high level of training that develops the correct neurological responses which are necessary for effective response on a subconcious

[oldman]

Fong Sai Yuk you hit the proverbial nail on the head, a tremendous amount of the criticism leveled at the CMA's comes about because there are many practicioners who are not willing to sacrifice the time, energy and effort necessary for hard training. It is a high level of training that develops the correct neurological responses which are necessary for effective response on a subconcious


I am with you on that one :D

[Fong Sai Yuk]

Haha cheers guys! :D

[Angelus]

i just saw this vid 5 mins back found it quite interesting
that monk has some crazy legs lol
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2081264493779407503&q=shaolin+kung+fu

[hungkuen]

i just saw this vid 5 mins back found it quite interesting
that monk has some crazy legs lol
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2081264493779407503&q=shaolin+kung+fu
Not to mention his quick reflexes to dodge those punches. One thing I noticed is that his stances are always solid and in balance, except for that disco bump technique. ;)

He doesn't look it but I can tell that monk is one strong dude.

[bcbernam777]

i just saw this vid 5 mins back found it quite interesting
that monk has some crazy legs lol
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2081264493779407503&q=shaolin+kung+fu

The man knows what he is doing

[Infrazael]

Most CMAs still gear towards "survival training" and def. not ringfighting. That's not to say that CMA sucks at ringfighting, but you need a different level (not in terms of easy or hard) of training if you want to compete.

But regardless of goals, sparring is pretty necessary.

[Angelus]

Not to mention his quick reflexes to dodge those punches. One thing I noticed is that his stances are always solid and in balance, except for that disco bump technique. ;)

He doesn't look it but I can tell that monk is one strong dude.
U know the freakiest part...HE LAUGHS ALL THE TIME....
Hes like "your arm will break ...HAHAHAHAHA"
like something straight out of a 70's kung fu flick LOL...
was it me or i think the guy he was demonstrating on was in alot of pain when the monk did the wrist-grab right in the beginning... i heard the "crack" when the monk grabbed his wrist... :cry:
I think that disco bump can really hurt someone if you put power in lol
It was really cool how he moved so fast that he was able to step on his opponent's back leg to stop him from retreating...

[hungkuen]

U know the freakiest part...HE LAUGHS ALL THE TIME....
Hes like "your arm will break ...HAHAHAHAHA"
like something straight out of a 70's kung fu flick LOL...
was it me or i think the guy he was demonstrating on was in alot of pain when the monk did the wrist-grab right in the beginning... i heard the "crack" when the monk grabbed his wrist... :cry:

Yeah, I heard that crack too. :eek: Ouch!

I think that disco bump can really hurt someone if you put power in lol
It was really cool how he moved so fast that he was able to step on his opponent's back leg to stop him from retreating...

That's one of the techniques our Sifu teaches with our Gung Gee Ma (Bow and Arrow) stance. We can trap the opponent's leg with our leading leg if we get in close enough. Once the opponent's leg is caught between our thigh/calf we can either lean forward to break it or just trap it and punch/kick away. My Sifu demonstrated that to me and once your leg is trapped, your mind starts to go "Oh $%@!". First instinct is to try and pull away, like that guy did. Meanwhile, the monk is smiling like a spider who sees an insect stuck in its web.

I wish that guy would have thrown more combinations although he did try to mix it up by throwing lefts and rights, not just straight rights. In the end, I don't think it would have made a difference. That monk even tried to get him to throw faster. :rolleyes:

[sliver]

Did the video really require necroing this thread? Really it could have had it's own thread, I didn't need to wade through seven pages of year old kibitizing just to see that! Nice link though.

[Infrazael]

That monk was pretty cool. Makes ya wonder, do all those "shaolin monks" actually know that stuff?

Lol.

[Unsung Hero]

this may have been already asked and answered, but on the whole "kung fu street fighting" subject, how would you say taiji is for street fighting? Or IMA in general?

[bcbernam777]

That monk was pretty cool. Makes ya wonder, do all those "shaolin monks" actually know that stuff?

Lol.

i would imagine they would do.

[Infrazael]

this may have been already asked and answered, but on the whole "kung fu street fighting" subject, how would you say taiji is for street fighting? Or IMA in general?

Um . . . . you fight. Like anyone else would fight.

[bcbernam777]

Um . . . . you fight. Like anyone else would fight.


To be honest with you I think a lot of people think that fighting (the real deal) is like the movies, they wont admit it, but subconciously they do.

[Angelus]

Did the video really require necroing this thread? Really it could have had it's own thread, I didn't need to wade through seven pages of year old kibitizing just to see that! Nice link though.
well if i hadent posted it then i would have prolly forgotten about it lol .. and i was in a rush so i just decided to not start a thread
To be honest with you I think a lot of people think that fighting (the real deal) is like the movies, they wont admit it, but subconciously they do.
Ya its kinda sad... i know sometimes with new students they try to use the movements in the forms to fight without breaking it down to a practical level because of the way they see kung fu done in the movies. My instuctor tries to explain to them that real fighting is much sloppier looking than forms because forms are for understanding. When you do forms you always presume that the previous technique was as effective as it was meant to be.
eg. Form - you punch one guy, change direction and block the another approaching from the opposite side
Reality - you punch one guy and he blocks or doesnt get KO'd ....lol now you have 2 opponents to deal with

[beknar]

this may have been already asked and answered, but on the whole "kung fu street fighting" subject, how would you say taiji is for street fighting? Or IMA in general?

Unfortunately, the VAST majority of schools don't teach taijiquan as a fighting art. They teach it as a supplemental art to help develop endurance, balance, strength and sensitivity to help with a primary external art.

But, in general, those movements aren't done exactly the same way you do them in the form, as is the case with most martial arts that use forms as a repository for techniques and combinations. You do have to adjust and adapt those movements when you're fighting. No one really sits in a low deep horse stance when fighting, do they? Or that pigeon toed stance in WC?

[Unsung Hero]

Well, obviously nobody says "hey, wait for me to get in my stance.....okay, now try and attack me" in a real fight. And my current teacher is teaching me chen style taiji, and he says he's teaching it as the fighting, self-defense art. I just wondered if the actual self-defense was any good, or it was just a load of bull.

[TheDarkJester]

No one really sits in a low deep horse stance when fighting, do they? Or that pigeon toed stance in WC?


If you throw a hook to my jaw.. is it considered standing if I shift forward and drop down into a horse stance using that forward sinking energy to pop a nice open shot at your solarplex?

If you threw a front kick and I switched stance back into a reverse bow, pulling your leg up and out with me then coming back around into a bow stance with two overhand forearm smashes to your neck and clavicle is that considered standing in a stance?

Only that lame ass dude who moves like a crab against that mexican loudmouth fight from horse. Aside from that.. stances are transitionary methods of standing to provide maximum leverage and/or power for each strike. Some strikes aren't so powerful in certain stances, some are. Everyone has their nuetral fighting stance that in theory, if they know how to move their feet, will allow them to move in any direction, pivot, switch lead foot. Your stance is your root. Look at boxers for example. Their stance allows for a stable mobile root they can throw effective hard combos from. Kung Fu of any flavor should be no different with exception to specialized hand techniques, additional types of strikes as well as kicks.

Thats the beauty of kung fu. Adaptability and interchangable. :)

[beknar]

Well, obviously nobody says "hey, wait for me to get in my stance.....okay, now try and attack me" in a real fight. And my current teacher is teaching me chen style taiji, and he says he's teaching it as the fighting, self-defense art. I just wondered if the actual self-defense was any good, or it was just a load of bull.

At my school they teach Yang style, and they tell us the same thing. They even teach us the applications, but don't tell us how to adapt it to fighting, nor are any of the hand strikes, concepts or stepping ever used in any of the sparring we do. I guess I could try to figure it out for myself, but why am I going to a school if I could just figure it out myself?

On the other hand, I've had taiji used on me in light sparring, and it can get pretty mean. Note, this was light sparring, not _push hands_.

[beknar]

If you throw a hook to my jaw.. is it considered standing if I shift forward and drop down into a horse stance using that forward sinking energy to pop a nice open shot at your solarplex?

If you threw a front kick and I switched stance back into a reverse bow, pulling your leg up and out with me then coming back around into a bow stance with two overhand forearm smashes to your neck and clavicle is that considered standing in a stance?

Only that lame ass dude who moves like a crab against that mexican loudmouth fight from horse. Aside from that.. stances are transitionary methods of standing to provide maximum leverage and/or power for each strike. Some strikes aren't so powerful in certain stances, some are. Everyone has their nuetral fighting stance that in theory, if they know how to move their feet, will allow them to move in any direction, pivot, switch lead foot. Your stance is your root. Look at boxers for example. Their stance allows for a stable mobile root they can throw effective hard combos from. Kung Fu of any flavor should be no different with exception to specialized hand techniques, additional types of strikes as well as kicks.

Thats the beauty of kung fu. Adaptability and interchangable. :)


Power generation from the stances are key in fighting. Avoiding getting hit while hitting at the same time using your footwork is also key in fighting. I guess I worded it a bit vaguely in that I don't mean you don't ever move from stance to stance to generate power or to trap your opponent. Of _course_ you do. Otherwise, you're just attacking with only your arms or just wading directly into someone's hitting zone back and forth hoping that your conditioning is better than the other guy's. I have unfortunately done both. :cry:

Now here's a question, though, the issue of cross-stepping when you're in close. Generally, beginners are told not to cross step, because you'll .. fall. However, I know that in more advanced forms, I see moves like this: reverse punch, cross step back (stealing horse), twist to a bow forward and use that energy to power another reverse punch forward. It's generally a very very fast technique, and I've never gotten it to work. Should I adapt all cross stepping movements or is this kind of technique going to become useful later?

Yes, the lamer with the crab-like movement is the one I'm talking about. He still won, though. :)

[Guizzy]

Your stance is your root. Look at boxers for example. Their stance allows for a stable mobile root they can throw effective hard combos from. Kung Fu of any flavor should be no different with exception to specialized hand techniques, additional types of strikes as well as kicks.

Thats the beauty of kung fu. Adaptability and interchangable. :)Absolutely.

No matter the MA, if you want to put your whole weight behind your strikes, you need to use a stance. While some might look jumpy and mobile (boxers, for instance), when striking they need to sink down and root their feet into some kind of a stance.

[TheDarkJester]

Power generation from the stances are key in fighting. Avoiding getting hit while hitting at the same time using your footwork is also key in fighting. I guess I worded it a bit vaguely in that I don't mean you don't ever move from stance to stance to generate power or to trap your opponent. Of _course_ you do. Otherwise, you're just attacking with only your arms or just wading directly into someone's hitting zone back and forth hoping that your conditioning is better than the other guy's. I have unfortunately done both. :cry:

Now here's a question, though, the issue of cross-stepping when you're in close. Generally, beginners are told not to cross step, because you'll .. fall. However, I know that in more advanced forms, I see moves like this: reverse punch, cross step back (stealing horse), twist to a bow forward and use that energy to power another reverse punch forward. It's generally a very very fast technique, and I've never gotten it to work. Should I adapt all cross stepping movements or is this kind of technique going to become useful later?

Yes, the lamer with the crab-like movement is the one I'm talking about. He still won, though. :)



Personally.. I'm not at a level where a cross step would be taught. We do however teach that twist stance you're talking about, but the only way I can see that stance being viable up close is while parrying, plucking and grabbing a lead hand strike, then turning into a twist or cross step stance to swing around and up with a forearm strike to shatter the attackers elbow. Its a fairly universal concept really.. I think Kenpo uses it. the boxing/thai boxing/kenpo coach we had come in two weeks ago at my pekiti tirsia class demonstrated it to great effect... caught 9 out of my 10 jabs. And I threw full speed and intent behind it.. he told me to hit him.. *shrug*

[bcbernam777]

You do have to adjust and adapt those movements when you're fighting. No one really sits in a low deep horse stance when fighting, do they? Or that pigeon toed stance in WC?

The problem is beknar that everyone wants to run before they can crawl, there are phases of development, rooting, moving the root, and then expanding on that foundation.

[Angelus]

The problem is beknar that everyone wants to run before they can crawl, there are phases of development, rooting, moving the root, and then expanding on that foundation.
very true... so many kids quit because we dont let them spar before they can even punch and kick properly...
lol they say its a waste of time lol..