kubotan

[nicolo]

anyone carry/use a kubotan? Anyone used it in a real situation?

[pgm316]

I don't, I know people that carry them, none have had to use them yet. I've never really thought of carrying one, until just then ;)

I'd like to know what the more experienced people on here think and any recommended places to buy them.

[KickChick]

Yes I do....

I find it a pretty practical weapon easily accessible without being obvious to your attacker. The only weapon that I carry all the time is a kubotan attached to my enormous set of keys ... and legal (at least in my area).

You can target the sternum, ribs, and chest including the face, armpits, collarbones, neck, groin, and basically anywhere else where nerve endings are fairly unprotected by muscle.
You can use to hold or escort someone into a lock/hold position. Whether it be to give them a jab in order to open them up for a hold to be applied, or to increase the incentive for the target to comply in a compliance hold situation.

Pretty practical ... just waiting for a chance to use it!

I have a 6 inch gold aluminum one that I purchased online.... you can find at bladestore.com

[nicolo]

Cool, I still have the authentic ones...black plastic with the Kubotan trademark on it. It's amazing I walked into court for jury duty and five officers surrounded me because I was carrying it.

[pgm316]

But, it is a small weapon to be striking with, I'm not sure how effective it would really be?

And for the locks I'd imagine it quite fiddly and risky, either getting the lock on right or failing completely!

[Andy Murray]

Hi Nicolo,

I carry a six inch Maglite.

Does the same things, has a lifetime gaurantee, is legal everywhere.............oh and it lights up too!

[Scotty Dog]

I used to carry the usual keychain type, but changed to the maglight as after a drunken stag night when we all got frisked by a couple of police men,

" what's this then ???" said the police man

":Angel: My Key's:Angel: " say's elhig, with an inocent look

"bit big for a key ring" the officer replies

":Angel: I lose them a lot :Angel: " Still trying to look inoccent

" sure it's not for hitting people with " stated the officer

with a feat of unbelieveable willpower elhig replyed
":Angel: no it's just a keyring:Angel: "
while thinking
" :yeleyes:You know I'd never thought of that, what a BRILLIANT idea to put in my head :yeleyes: "

[morphus]

i got one - i know a few tech's that i've been shown but i'm not well versed in them so i don't carry it!:)

[Darkflight]

I've been intrigued by this weapon since I saw it for sale on some websites as a keyring but some searching on Google came up with a page (which I can't find now) advising against its use due to its legality.

Apparently in this country (UK) it's classed as a weapon (that is, designed for the purpose of hurting someone) and is therefore illegal to carry, even if it is on a keyring. Chances of getting caught, and the police actually realising what it is are pretty slim though, as elhiggito showed.

I carry a maglite solitaire too, perfectly legal, and does the same job, and yes it lights up :)

[KickChick]

Unfortunately a simple self defense gadget/keychain like the kubotan will indeed land you in jail in Britain.

There is alot of reference to defending yourself and the illegalities in Britain (small weapons) on Don Rearic's web page.

[NotAMonte86]

I carry a kubaton with two spikes sticking straight out the side, so when you hold it in your fist, you have two spikes sticking out in between your fingers. I call it a "can opener" and have not used it yet. The spikes stick out pretty far, I would be worried about using it (unless I'm in a life or death situation)!
Got it on E-Bay for $4.50 shipped.

[Darkflight]

I'm going to try and find that Don Rearic guys site... :)

As I said, Maglites are the way forward :)

[KickChick]

.... just give it a Google!

yeah, there are some "flashlights" that you can strike with but also momentarily blind your attacker.

Besides the kubaton, there is also a neat little item called the .koppo stick (http://www.bladerigger.com/koppo.html) , as seen in Hatsumi Sensei's book "Stick Fighting" under the title of "Eda Koppo" for the Eda Koppo technique.

It has a loop for the middle and ring fingers, and this simple loop adds one very important feature that the kubaton does not have and that is , retention. It allows you to use the stick without fear of your hands slipping off under impact, and it also allows you to open your hand for open hand strikes and grappling, without losing your weapon.

[KickChick]

Originally posted by pgm316
But, it is a small weapon to be striking with, I'm not sure how effective it would really be?

And for the locks I'd imagine it quite fiddly and risky, either getting the lock on right or failing completely!

ah, but it is very effective!

You can use the kubaton to strike nerve centers and pressure points on the body. The strikes can hit anywhere on the body with the greatest of effect bringing an assailant to their knees in instant agony. The end serves to channel and concentrate the force of a strike to one point.
Simultaneous blocks/strikes to the muscles of the arms can paralyse the limb, breaking a hold or dropping a weapon. Bicep, tricep, brachial artery on the inside of bicep and the inner and lower sides of the forearm can be sickening and highly effective target strikes.
Stabbing or thrusting the stick into a leg can instantly deter any kicker. Thigh, shin and calf are all targets. Stabbing into the femoral artery high on the inner thigh near the groin can collapse a leg very quickly for a takedown. All muscle strikes can cause deep bruising and temporary loss of usage to a limb. Torso - front and back - can also put paid to a frontal or rear attack. Lethal targets are of course, the eyes, temples,throat and the base of the skull is reserved for times of extreme danger. :eek:

[Scotty Dog]

supprised Yoda's not posted this already as this is from his site

weapons legality (http://www.cea.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ceaweb/law-weapons.htm)

the one thing about the mag light thing is that even though you shouldn't be done for carrying, if you use it it's still classed as an offensive weapon :(

[KickChick]

I'm surprised also:)

It is funny how the position of the Brits has changed....back in the early American states our forebears understood that they had an individual right to possess and carry arms for defense, ( it was subject to the common law restriction, noted by Sir William Blackstone,)that one could not carry weapons if they intended to terrify the people or make an affray of the peace.

Here amongst the States there are discretionary licensing laws that are currently on the books regarding the carrying of small weapons such as the kubaton.

Here in America, our Declaration of Independence asserts that governments are instituted to secure the right to life. The right to life of necessity implies the right to maintain or continue one's life by defending it against violent criminal assault.

[nicolo]

Wait I live in New York and I carry a real plastic Kubotan. Not the spiked metal ones. So you're saying that's illegal too?

[nicolo]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Hi Nicolo,

I carry a six inch Maglite.

Does the same things, has a lifetime gaurantee, is legal everywhere.............oh and it lights up too!


----dang, first you blind your assailant then joint lock em

[nicolo]

Originally posted by pgm316
But, it is a small weapon to be striking with, I'm not sure how effective it would really be?

And for the locks I'd imagine it quite fiddly and risky, either getting the lock on right or failing completely!

----

well the Kubotan isn't the real striking weapon, it's the keys that are attached to it. With the keys in place, you can use the Kubotan like a mini-flail or mace and smash them into your attacker's face, bones, etc. You can also strike with the body of the Kubotan itself, but it may not hurt or have as much damaging impact as the keys. If you have the metal sticks, that'll hurt. I have the plastic ones so it may sting a little if I whipped that on you.

Generally, if you're good with joint locks (you're an aikidoka, jujitsu fighter, chi-na, etc) you'll use the kubotan to capture and lock an attacker. Most ordinary people HIT first...it's a natural reaction to HIT and the keys with the kubotan makes a perfect weapon.

If anyone is interested in purchasing the authentic plastic Kubotans let me know and I can direct you to the source. The thing I don't like about the metal ones is that they can hurt if used against you. They also have built in keyrings so that doesn't leave you with much of an option for altering it. My kubotan originally came with a tiny screw-eyelet for the keyring. I've since replaced that with a thick 1/8" screw-eyelet. It's big and perfect for jabbing into an attacker because it has less surface area than the regular butt of a Kubotan.

[KickChick]

Originally posted by nicolo
----

well the Kubotan isn't the real striking weapon.......You can also strike with the body of the Kubotan itself, but it may not hurt or have as much damaging impact as the keys. If you have the metal sticks, that'll hurt. I have the plastic ones so it may sting a little if I whipped that on you.

...huh??? are you sure you know how to use the kubaton. How were you instructed on employing the techniques. Did you even read my post?
True, with keys attached it makes an alternative flailing weapon too.

No thanks ..... I'll keep my heavy duty aluminum kubaton and koppo ....

[Scotty Dog]

ever try'ed actually hitting something with the key's attached???

Try'ed it once on a bag for a laff, ended up with the key's ripping my knuckles to bit's :-(

[nicolo]

Originally posted by KickChick
...huh??? are you sure you know how to use the kubaton. How were you instructed on employing the techniques. Did you even read my post?
True, with keys attached it makes an alternative flailing weapon too.

No thanks ..... I'll keep my heavy duty aluminum kubaton and koppo ....

-----

KickChick....YES I know you can jab with the Kubotan...but I meant for flailing strikes, it's more damaging with the keys.
Aluminum sticks hurt too...but they set off metal detectors.

[Joe karate]

I can't see using a kubotan because i'm not familiar with it. I would feel more comfortable with my hands....or my pepper spray!!

[teacher]

Re. legality elhiggito is in Scotland where as i believe the object can be defined as an offensive weapon if it is used as a weapon. E.G. carrying a bottle of milk is legal but if you hit someone with it you could be accused of using the bottle as an offensive weapon. The best defence is a witness that saw the other guy start it but remember the procurator may then ask if your response was appropriate couldnt you with your martial arts skills have defended yourself without a weapon?

[YODA]

Scenario:

Mr Policeman: ello ello ello - what 'ave we got 'ere then? Man on floor out for the count - what happened son?

You: He attacked me officer so I hit him in the temple with my keyring. It was in self defence.

Mr Policeman: Let me have a look at that keyring sonny. Well looky here this looks like an offensive weapon to me.

You: No no you've got it all wrong. It isn't a weapon I just have it on my keys to stop me losing them.

Mr Policeman: Ah I see - it's not a weapon then? Where did you buy it from?

You: A martial arts shop / website.

Mr Policeman: You're nicked!

Simplified version --- these are sold by martial arts shops - try convincing a jury it's not a weapon.

[KickChick]

Realistically, you can use anything as a weapon for self defense so chances are you will be charged with carrying what would be deemed an offensive weapon anyway…

.... so as Joe karate posted you can just use your hands (or feet) until of course unarmed self defense becomes illegal.

[SoKKlab]

Yep,
They are a Bona Fide weapon in the UK. Unfortunately, I can attest to that because I was done for carrying one years ago, even though it was just in my pocket and we got stopped and searched by the Police on a cold Sunday morning after going to an all-night party. Going Equipped was the charge (To commit Bodily harm etc)...

How about a walking stick?-although if you are young and healthy The Police may think that you are 'trying it on' and arrest you anyway. And of course you can't put in your pocket unless you wear Clown Trousers...

[Darkflight]

SoKKlab, if you don't mind me asking, what was the outcome?

As for a walking stick, you would need to prove it was to aid you walking. Going out hiking - fine. Going down the pub - trouble.

[Knight_Errant]

Many hikers take a stick with them if they're young and healthy. It's just a useful thing to have with you in many eventualities.

[SoKKlab]

No Problem Dark Flight,
I got a caution, as at the time the law was a bit vague on the whole matter. They were being sold in Martial Arts shops as borderline legal. As Keychains....

The Police didn't see it like that, as they consider them to be mini-truncheons/ batons etc. Which with hindsight is a fair enough POV from their position, I just wish that I'd known that at the time and I don't neccessarily agree with the legal position on them, but will comply with the law.

The only reason they didn't Fully prosecute me, was they didn't have a strong enough case under the law at the time as Kubotans were a relatively new introduction.

These days it'd be a lot different as alot of the Football Hooligans started carrying them to complement their sealed and sharpened Umbrellas.

[SoKKlab]

I got attacked by a Mountain Goat in Mid Wales and my hiking stick definitely came in handy, so did all that staff training as it was fighting mad.

It was goat Kebabs for tea for a coupla weeks in our house...

[Scotty Dog]

MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmm

:DKebab:D

[YODA]

MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmm

:DGoat:D

[Scotty Dog]

Originally posted by YODA
MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmm

:DGoat:D

as long as there's hot sauce :p

[YODA]

....... and cold beer :D

[Scotty Dog]

hooooo baby, sound's like we got a party :D

some one should make a rule about posting the word "kebab", seems to lead us off topic ever time :)

[YODA]

Mmmmmmmm........... Kebab

Mmmmmmm......... Friday night!

Noooooooooooo........ I will not phone THAT number

Must resiiiiiiiiiiiiiist!!!!!!!!

[Freeform]

I'm quite conversant with the ole kubotan. By the by, the 'authentic black plastic ones with "KUBOTAN"printed on them' are just an excellent marketing opertunity jumped upon by one of our american friends.

About 90%ish of the things you can do with a kubotan you can do with your hands/fingers.

Col

[YODA]

I find a nice steel Parker ball point pen quite useful.

I write with it too :Angel:

[Freeform]

I can also point and gesture with my fingers ;)

[KickChick]

Originally posted by Freeform
About 90%ish of the things you can do with a kubotan you can do with your hands/fingers.

...WHAT???!!!! ... and break a nail???!!!! just kidding!:p

Honestly though, one of the techniques I learned was a choking technique to crush an assailant's trachea ... I am not as confident in my "choking skills" with my hands but I do feel confident on doing it with the kubaton.


The kubotan provides some added leverage. IThey say that wrist locks, arm bars, come-alongs, chokes, and leg locks become more painful with the kubotan. The kubatons rigidity makes it much more resistant to an attacker's efforts to power out a hold or lock.

Fortunately for the US the kubaton doesn't face the legal difficulties (as in the UK) and also of many other edged and impact weapons which are illegal in the US.

[nicolo]

I once used a hard Tootsie Roll...

How do you apply a choke with a Kubotan? Is it like a hadaka jime for example but with the edge stuck into the opponent's trachea? Or do you just reach from behind and use the body of the kubotan for a choke.

[Guppy^]

Hi new poster here :),

I have been carrying a Kubotan for a while , and never used it for real yet but...

My Ju Jitsu Instructor showed me a few ways of inflicting pain with the affore mentioned item, to wrists was an easy and very painfull one.
But none involved acually using the Kubaton to strike.
I was under the impression its purpose was as a restraint to basically nip nerves between it and bone and cause pain with no lasting affects.

Never thought of the maglight idea , cool :)

Garry

[Dark Blade]

Does anyone know where I can get a a punching one, with the points coming out from inbetween 2 fingers?
In Australia, hopefully with a key chain attachment.
Thanks:)

[Freeform]

Ouch! Imagine having one of those in your pocket, you'll stab yourself. Technically not a kubotan though, just a western *******isation of one! ;)

Col

[Dark Blade]

Well, I aint gonna be putting it in my back pocket....damn...that'd be painful :P

[Trent Tiemeyer]

*cough*pliers*cough*

[Dark Blade]

That's just evil.
:D

[Freeform]

KC, one of the things that we do when teaching womens SD classes is work with the itemi stick, basically a wooden kubotan. We show them how to use them and it builds up confidence in the person, then we show them how to do most of the stuff with knuckles and hands.

At the least, it teaches people how to turn things like pens, spoons, toothbrushes into weapons.

Col

[shortstick]

I have one a student made out of rose wood....very nice looking.
I tell people its for keeping my keys floating in water.
I got my wife the kind with the spikes that stick out the side. YOu can close your fist and those spikes are right there ready to go.
Its on her key chain and she walks to the car with them in her closed hand ready to poke anyone that wants to mess with her.
This makes her feel more secure, and that helps project a "I'm not an easy target" vibe. Sometimes thats enough.

[LexS]

Sorry for the image size but I posted of a tool I make at:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7602&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

I also make a straight 'Koppo' stick with finger cord from the same material.

Opinions:

Keep this image in mind: 'Committed, Focused Attacker'.

1) You don't want to defend yourself with your personal keys. That'll just bloody your hand and only anger an attacker. If a metal baton or full-strength OC spray doesn't always work for the police...

And what if you lose them to the attacker and he/she knows your address and where your car is parked?

If you're dead set on keys, use fake or old ones you can afford to lose.

2) Mace or pepper spray will ALWAYS get on the defender or in his/her eyes. If you are going to depend on this stuff as a main weapon, be prepared. Sample it (outdoors) with an assistant to help you wash it off your skin or out of your eyes. CAVEAT: get advice from a police training officer first. Some departments that use OC spray expose police cadets to it during training. Find out how they do that safely.

Consider: What if it discharges during church? At work? In your car on the highway?

3) Even carrying a defensive weapon is a calculated risk. I try to asses the risk of assault against the legality of its possession.

That which I usually carry is not illegal in the U.S. and is not detectable by metal detectors.

4) Substitutes: Combination lock as a metal knuckle, 2-3 AA battery flashlight as a yawara stick (lacks the finger cord of a Koppo but is legal everywhere.) Some 2 AA brands are made 7" long. See auto parts stores.

[Reiki]

Nice pointy stick Lex!

I like the idea about a loseable set of keys too...

I carry my kubotan in my handbag by itself. Sometimes with its friend the ninja stick. :yeleyes: