Integrity [Archive] - Martial Arts Planet

pesilat

12-May-2002, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by YODA
Hi all

Here's a quote I came across recently and it had a profound impact on me...

"Integrity means doing the right thing - even if nobody is watching"

- do your "play" the honest and sincere martial artist in public only to fail miserably in private?

I fail in public too - but at least I'm working on it LOL!

Hm. I think I do OK on this one (though it may sound immodest to say so :-)

My number one priority in life is honesty ... to be as honest as possible with everyone ... ESPECIALLY MYSELF.

I'm far from perfect ... but I'll be the first to tell anyone that.

I do feel that I am honest and sincere both publicly and privately ... and I think anyone who knows me well would agree.

I went to a private seminar carrying a box of Krispy Kreme donuts. A close friend (for all intents and purposes, my brother) looked at his instructor and said, "See, two things Mikey takes seriously: his training and his donuts."

Mike

YODA

12-May-2002, 05:53 PM

Good stuff guys.

Andy - right on! It's better to try & fail than to fail to try :D

Mike - I'm with you on the donuts :D

alienladd

13-May-2002, 07:14 PM

"Integrity means doing the right thing - even if nobody is watching"
----------------------------
Excellent quote, Yoda!

There was a man once who used to walk around with a lit up lamp or lantern during the day.

When asked why he replied:

"I am searching for an honest man."

I believe the man's name was Diogynes (or something like that) and he was a Greek philosopher.

I also believe that this has not changed even unto this day.

"As honest as possible." indeed Pesilat!!!

You are HONEST or you are NOT!!! :-))

Regards, alienladd ~!~

pesilat

13-May-2002, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by alienladd

"As honest as possible." indeed Pesilat!!!

You are HONEST or you are NOT!!! :-))

LOL ... "as possible" is a nod to the fact that I'm human and fallible. I try to always be honest ... but the best laid plans ...

It's generally pretty easy to be honest with others. But we are all prone to self-delusions and rationalizations. No matter how hard we try to avoid them, they still happen on occasion if we let our guard down.

Mike

alienladd

13-May-2002, 08:43 PM

Of course, Pesilat. I know exactly what you meant, hence the big grin at the end of my quote.

The thing is I hear this statement so often from people around me and yet one has to be on one's guard all the time. ... Indulge in the luxury of trust ... and you invariably get the short end of the stick.

Funnily enough, I find it easier to be honest with myself (ok, ok, ... I will admit I sometimes try to delude myself and try to find excuses for my shortcomings) but still even then I KNOW the truth and WILL acknowledge it as without that there is no way to improvement.

With strangers I find it sometimes a little strained to be straight forward honest, good and clean and fresh type of honest,... sometimes of course I find it best not to respond to some of their statements or actions as my response would more than likely lead to aggressive responseson their part.
So in a way people often 'force' one to be a little 'deceitful'

I am SO getting carried away here!!!

One last thing .... what does 'LOL' stand for.
I'm not so eloquent in computer 'hieroglyphics'

Regards, alienladd ~!~

Andy Murray

13-May-2002, 08:56 PM

LOL= Lots of Laughs
ROFL= rolls on the floor laughing
BTW= By the way
BRB= Be right back
NP= No problem
CWAH= Cooler was a hippy
KIFP= Karate is for pansy's

The last two seem somewhat inflammatory to me, but Melanie assures me that they are accepted net terminology world wide.

HONEST ;)

Andy:)

alienladd

13-May-2002, 09:08 PM

ROFL - at the last two, but thanks Andy

Regards, alienladd

Melanie

13-May-2002, 09:40 PM

Er...Andy....

Hate to say this..but I wasn't being serious...oh well :)

Melanie

pesilat

13-May-2002, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
LOL= Lots of Laughs
ROFL= rolls on the floor laughing
BTW= By the way
BRB= Be right back
NP= No problem
CWAH= Cooler was a hippy
KIFP= Karate is for pansy's

The last two seem somewhat inflammatory to me, but Melanie assures me that they are accepted net terminology world wide.

HONEST ;)

Andy:)

Huh. Never seen "Lots of Laughs" ... I've always used it for "Laughing Out Loud"

And don't forget: ROFLMAO = Rolling on Floor Laughing My A$$ Off

Later, Mike

pesilat

13-May-2002, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by alienladd
Of course, Pesilat. I know exactly what you meant, hence the big grin at the end of my quote.

Yeah, that's what I figured ... just wanted to clarify ... just in case ;-)

The thing is I hear this statement so often from people around me and yet one has to be on one's guard all the time. ... Indulge in the luxury of trust ... and you invariably get the short end of the stick.

Yes, that does happen. But I'm a believer in the concept of karma. I'm very trusting ... but also realistic in my expectations. If I get stabbed in the back then I know not to trust that person any more ... or at least in that area.

But I find that my trust is rewarded far more often than it is spurned.

With strangers I find it sometimes a little strained to be straight forward honest, good and clean and fresh type of honest,... sometimes of course I find it best not to respond to some of their statements or actions as my response would more than likely lead to aggressive responseson their part.
So in a way people often 'force' one to be a little 'deceitful'

For that I use two old rules: "if I have nothing nice to say I say nothing at all" and "if you don't want the answer don't ask the question."

So, if I'm not saying anything and someone asks my opinion, then they need to be prepared to hear my honest opinion. This has gotten me in hot water on occasion ... but generally people respect me for it and when they do ask for my opinion they are prepared for honesty ... even if they don't like it they respect it because it's honest.

I was attending a seminar once where there was a potential for some political BS to crop up. My instructor's wife was kind of worried about me going. My instructor told her, "If it comes up, Mike'll avoid it. If they stick it in his face, they'll probably regret it."

There was some political BS ... but I ignored it and didn't let it get to me. I just did my work and let it speak for itself.

Once, I attended a Ninjutsu class and they did knife work. Knife work isn't my personal forte ... but it is the forte of the Filipino martial arts ... and, as such, I've got pretty respectable knife skills. I went through the class and did everything as they taught it and didn't say a word. After the class, the instructor (who is a great guy and very open-minded) asked me what I thought. I said, "Well, it's decent ... not how I'd do it, but decent." He asked how I would do it. I showed him some of the FMA knife work and he grinned, a little wide-eyed, and said, "Ah. I see why you wouldn't do it our way."

Mike

YODA

13-May-2002, 10:53 PM

You call THAT a list?

THIS is a list :D

AAMOF = As A Matter Of Fact
AFAIK = As Far As I Know
AWGTHTGTTA = Are We Going To Have To Go Through This Again?
Alternative form is AWGTHTGTATA (...Through ALL This Again?)
BBFN = Bye Bye For Now
BIOYIOP = Blow It Out Your Input Output Port
BRB = Be Right Back (generally used on chat systems)
BTA = But Then Again
BTW = By The Way
BYKT = But You Knew That
BYKTA = But You Knew That Already
CMIIW = Correct Me If I'm Wrong
CYL = See You Later
DNPM = Darn Near P***ed Myself
EOD = End Of Discussion
EOL = End Of Lecture
ESOSL = Endless Snorts of Stupid Laughter
FDROTFL = Falling Down Rolling On The Floor Laughing
FITB = Fill In The Blank....
FOTCL = Falling Off The Chair Laughing
FWIW = For What It's Worth
FYI = For Your Information
GD&R = Grin, Duck & Run
GOK = God Only Knows
IAC = In Any Case
IMCDO = In My Conceited Dogmatic Opinion.
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
IMNSHO = In My Not So Humble Opinion
IOW = In Other Words
IITYWYBMAB = If I Tell You, Will You Buy Me A Beer
IITYWYBAD = If I Tell You, Will You Buy Another Drink
INPO = In No Particular Order
KCBIWIYWI = Keep Coming Back, It Works If You Work It
LLTA = Lots and Lots of Thunderous (or Thundering) Applause
LOL = Laughing out loud
LMAO = Laughing My A** Off
MUNG = Mash Until No Good
NICBDAT = Nothing Is Certain But Death And Taxes
NIMBY = Not In My Backyard
NIMTO = Not In My Term of Office
NPLU = Not People Like Us
NQOS = Not Quite Our Sort
OIC = OH!, I See
OTOH = On The Other Hand
PGY = Post Graduate year PGY-1, PGY-2 etc. used in PGY Med.
PMETC = Pardon Me Etc.
PMYMHMMFSWGAD = Pardon Me, You Must Have Mistaken Me For Someone Who
Gives A Damn.
PTO=Patent and Trademark Office (US Govt)
ROFL = Rolling On Floor Laughing
ROFLAHMSL = Rolling On Floor Laughing And Holding My Sides Laughing
ROTBA = Reality On The Blink Again
ROTFL = Rolling On The Floor Laughing
ROFLASTC (or ROFLASC) = Rolling On The Floor Laughing And Scaring
The Cat. Originated, I'm told by Pamela Dean, who types with a cat
on her lap.
ROTFLMAAOBPO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A** And Other Body Parts Off
ROY G. BIV = An acronym for the colors of the spectrum-- Red Orange Yellow Green
Blue Indigo Violet
RSN = Real Soon Now
RTFM = Read The F**** Manual
SWAG = Simple Wild A** Guess
SYT = Sweet Young Thing
TANJ = There Ain't No Justice
TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
TIC = Tongue In Cheek
TINALO = This Is Not A Legal Opinion
TINAR = This Is Not A Recommendation
TIWTGLGG = This Is Where The Goofy Little Grin Goes
TJATAW = Truth, Justice, And The American Way
TLA = Three Letter Acronym
TRDMC = Tears Running Down My Cheeks
TTBOMK = To The Best Of My Knowledge
TTFN = Ta Ta For Now
TTYL = Talk To You Later
TYVM = Thank You Very Much
WAMKSAM = Why Are My Kids (or Kitties) Staring At Me?
WIBAMU = Well I'll be a Monkey's Uncle
WYSBYGI = What You See Before You Get It
WYSIWYG = What You See Is What You Get
YAP = Yet Another Ploy
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

Andy Murray

13-May-2002, 11:17 PM

Yeah but that's old Yoda. what about.....

YMWAHAYFSOE- Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberiies!

GTAFFTARD- Go take a flying **** through a rolling donut!

DYGOM?- Do you get out much?

WYATU?- Where you always this unpopular?

ITTTIMBO- Is that the time, I must be off.

IMBLYK- I met Bruce Lee you know.

YBS- Your breath stinks.

YSS- Your spelling stinks.

I have been sticking these at the bottom of posts for ages, and no one ever questions me. I think they are too afraid to admit they don't know what they mean!

Andy ;)

Andrew Green

14-May-2002, 05:27 AM

Originally posted by YODA
[B]"Integrity means doing the right thing - even if nobody is watching"

All depends on how you define "the right thing", Since philosophers have been arguing about that since philosophers began to exist. ( :D ) it doesn't mean much when you work through it.

Lets see... It's not ok to put cats in the microwave becuase other people find it disturbing. If there is no one around to find it disturbing its ok.

Of course then you are still doing the "right thing" as you believe it to be, and therefore have integrity.

or...

The right thing is to put cats in the microwave, regardless of what others think.

or how about....

To do the right thing is to do that which bring you the most pleasure. If putting cats in the microwave brings you pleasure, then that is the right thing.

Now just for the record: I have never put a cat in the microwave.

Anyway, defining integrity as doing the right thing - fine, define "doing the right thing" - not so easy.

Another quote "It's only a crime if you get caught"

....

Ok, I'll take my meds now...

Melanie

14-May-2002, 08:13 AM

Andy...the Canadian version of the Royal Society of Prevention Cruelty to Animals has asked that you stay where you are...you're surrounded.

Take it like the man you are Andy...on your knees and beg for forgiveness...

You knew you had to take the meds more than once a day...

alienladd

14-May-2002, 10:15 AM

Oh my God! Help them for they are confused and babbling! :-))

alienladd ~!~

alienladd

14-May-2002, 10:41 AM

But more in a serious mode now!....
__________________________________________
quote:

Originally posted by YODA
B]"Integrity means doing the right thing - even if
nobody is watching"
___________________________________________

........Andrew Green, (now that you have taken your meds :-)), you KNOW that it is the wrong thing to do as you will be HARMING an innocent creature purely without any good reason.

Even a hardened criminal knows he is doing wrong when he harms someone even if he has good reason such as self-enrichment or whatever causes him to do it.

Take a compulsive gambler for instance: he will gamble for self-gratification and of course to fulfil that hope of winning, but even when he loses he carries on playing. And the more he loses the more nervous he gets and even starts sweating.
Yet he carries on.
He KNOWS he is doing wrong even if he has no one to account to.
And pursuing the act, in contradiction to what you know to be right, is a lack of integrity.

Any thoughts on that?

alienladd

alienladd

14-May-2002, 10:49 AM

quote:
________________________________________________
I'm very trusting ... but also realistic in my expectations.
If I get stabbed in the back then I know not to trust that person any more
________________________________________________

I should say ....... after that episode the only person you need to trust is the UNDERTAKER. :-))

alienladd ~!~

Melanie

14-May-2002, 11:02 AM

Alienladd,

Integrity = Honesty, truth, honour, veracity, reliability, uprightness

(aren't the Thesaurus handy in Word!)

Gamble = Risk, stake, venture, hazard, speculate, chance, bet.

So different yet the same. I feel integrity is closer to conscience and honour. I know there is an honour amongst theives but not the same in my book. To trust someone - you measure their integrity perhaps?

"He KNOWS he is doing wrong even if he has no one to account to.
And pursuing the act, in contradiction to what you know to be right, is a lack of integrity."

I agree with you Alienladd.

Freeform

14-May-2002, 02:36 PM

I try to do what I feel is the right thing, but in someones eyes I'll have done the wrong thing anyway. I, like Mr Murray, constantly fail to achieve the goals I set for myself (it'd be too easy if I could!).

But if i do do something, and theres not a Moderator around, I'm I still wrong?

Thanx

alienladd

14-May-2002, 10:28 PM

:-)) There is some rather creative digi-hyroglyphics here.

Yoda's list is most impressive but Andy Murray wins the prize for originality.
____________________________________________

Andy Murray

14-May-2002, 10:43 PM

WTYPSMAOK!

alienladd

14-May-2002, 11:15 PM

Melanie

I feel integrity is closer to conscience and honour.
------------------------
Yes I'm inclined to agree with 'integrity' being closely associated with the 'conscience'. Although I would see 'honour' more as a reward being bestowed upon you by your fellow beings.
True integrity is shown by acting in accordance with your convictions/conscience even if it is contrary to popular expectations and most importantly without any expectation of a reward.
Your ONLY reward is KNOWING that you have acted correctly.
How do you know you have acted correctly?

Ask yourself these questions: -

Have I acted to satisfy pure self-interest whilst disregarding the hardship my action may cause for others?

Have I acted in the interest of the well-being of my fellow beings and the world around me as well as myself?
_____________________________________________
To trust someone - you measure their integrity perhaps?
________________________

I suppose you might say that; although that would be more like putting them to the test.
In my own mind to trust someone is to not even consider that they might act in any other way than with integrity.

But we could be splitting hairs over this one. I suppose in a way we are always 'measuring' someones integrity or other attributes.

To FREEFORM I would like to say this:-

If you act in accordance with your conscience then you have acted with integrity.

People will often judge you by norms set by society as they don't want to be seen to contradict society norms.

I have found some people will openly condemn or criticise you for your actions but secretly will admire you for your courage to stand by your convictions.

Also, I don't think integrity has anything to do with goal-setting and achieving goals. It simply has to do with acting in accordance with your conscience.

HBTHTTSHATTITM -
(Hoo Boy, To Have To Think So Hard At This Time In The Morning)

See Ya, alienladd ~!~

alienladd

14-May-2002, 11:24 PM

quote:

WTYPSMAOK!
___________________
OK Andy, I give up! What's the answer?

alienladd ~!~

Andy Murray

14-May-2002, 11:45 PM

Alienladd,

Q/ WTYPSMAOK.

A/ Why thank you, please send me an Ostrich Kebab.

I was lucky enough to go to South Africa a couple of years ago, and really enjoyed Ostrich meat!!!

Sorry to distract from the thread!

Andy

Andrew Green

15-May-2002, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by alienladd

........Andrew Green, (now that you have taken your meds :-)), you KNOW that it is the wrong thing to do as you will be HARMING an innocent creature purely without any good reason.

No, I don't. I've reinterpreted my religious texts and they clearly say that all cats ought to be put in the microwave. Cats are evil and should be removed from the planet.

"Harming an innocent creature" - Interesting claim, is swatting a fly morally wrong? Not by most people's standards. Maybe bugs don't count, what about hunting? Contact sports?

My good reason is that cats are evil and don't deserve to live in my opinion, plus microwaving them is fun.

How about body mutilation? Sacrifices? Abortion? Tell me, what makes you think there are moral truths as to whether these things are wrong?

Even a hardened criminal knows he is doing wrong when he harms someone even if he has good reason such as self-enrichment or whatever causes him to do it.

Some might, others not.

Knowing it is against the law is different from knowing it is wrong.

alienladd

15-May-2002, 09:34 AM

Hi Andrew,

You make some interesting points here :-)

I herewith challenge you to a question and answer discussion to see how or why you have a
'arrived at this particular view'.

You state:

"No, I don't. I've reinterpreted my religious texts and they clearly say that all cats ought to
be put in the microwave. Cats are evil and should be removed from the planet."

in response to my:

........Andrew Green, (now that you have taken your meds :-)), you KNOW that it is the wrong thing to do as you will be HARMING an innocent creature purely without any good reason.

So you felt the NEED to re-interpret your religious texts and this includes that all cats are evil and must be destroyed.
(The method is not important for the argument)

State your reasons for this 'NEED' - also:
I must now assume that you have a definition of 'EVIL' - state your definition.

AYUTTC? :-))
(are you up to the challenge?)

pesilat

15-May-2002, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by alienladd
AYUTTC? :-))
(are you up to the challenge?)

OK ... here's one that I've dredged out of my cellar ... IBSLTICRWGTU

It's been so long that I can't remember who gets tied up.

Mike

Melanie

15-May-2002, 09:55 AM

Mike....a little word in your ear...

;D

pesilat

15-May-2002, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Melanie
Mike....a little word in your ear...

;D

Erm ... what word?

Mike

waya

15-May-2002, 11:53 AM

OK ... here's one that I've dredged out of my cellar ... IBSLTICRWGTU

It's been so long that I can't remember who gets tied up.

Mike,
Let's leave my biography out of this lol.

Rob

waya

15-May-2002, 11:54 AM

ok,
If Ingegrity is doing what is right, how do we judge who has it and who doesn't? Right is different for each individual or geographic region. What is done on one side of the globe would probably get you 15-20 in the US lol

Rob

Andrew Green

15-May-2002, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by alienladd
Hi Andrew,

You make some interesting points here :-)

I herewith challenge you to a question and answer discussion to see how or why you have a
'arrived at this particular view'.

Combination of moral nihilism and being a bit of a pain in the A$$

:D

So you felt the NEED to re-interpret your religious texts and this includes that all cats are evil and must be destroyed.
(The method is not important for the argument)

State your reasons for this 'NEED' - also:

I felt that my previous interpretation was flawed.

I must now assume that you have a definition of 'EVIL' - state your definition.

Opposite of Good, bad, oppose my God(s), etc. I know which things are evil based on my religious texts.

None of this is really relevant though. This is just a (rather silly) example to illustrate that not everyone agrees on what "the right thing" is. In some cases what one person sees as clearly right, another sill see as clearly wrong.

I'll make it easier for anyone that wants to challenge this:

1. Integrity means doing the "right thing", even when no one else knows about it"

2. The "right thing" refers to doing what is morally correct.

3. It is epistemologically impossible for us to know which moral claims are true, if in fact any are true.

4. The claim has very little meaning, as a person may be evil (as defined by the culture he is a part of, yet have integrity.

Thats kind of oversimplifying it, but will give you something to argue against. I can see at least one way around it, but I'm not telling :D

Andy Murray

15-May-2002, 07:20 PM

As an alternative to reading this thread, try poking out your own eyes with hot needles. Your head will hurt less afterwards!

AAAaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrggghhhhhh!

AAAaaaaaaaaiiiiieeeyyyyeeeeee!

;)

alienladd

15-May-2002, 08:03 PM

It's a pity Andrew that you are sidestepping my challenge by giving vague and non-committal answers.
This might have been an interesting debate and certainly beneficial.
The concept of integrity, a quality that is generally lacking in our world society, is really important to understand for serious and genuine people.
And I DO regard MA people as such.

But to take you up on your listed points:

1. Integrity means doing the "right thing", even when no one else knows about it"

2. The "right thing" refers to doing what is morally correct.

3. It is epistemologically impossible for us to know which moral claims are true, if in fact any are true.

4. The claim has very little meaning, as a person may be evil (as defined by the culture he is a part of, yet have integrity.

Point 1. - I agree!
Point 2. - Doing the 'right thing' has nothing to do with morality.
Point 3. - Epistomology is not the ultimate authority on 'morality' or what is 'right or wrong'
Point 4. - This sounds like a statement of a confused person.

And briefly on your definition of 'EVIL' being the opposite of 'GOOD':
That definition is inadequate as you now first have to define 'GOOD' before you can assess the value of it's opposite.

So! .... the discussion can only continue and bear fruit if you are prepared to base your statement on real observations. :-)

I would certainly be interested to hear your true views and thoughts. And it would be nice to hear those of some of the other members also.

regards

Andrew Green

15-May-2002, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by alienladd
It's a pity Andrew that you are sidestepping my challenge by giving vague and non-committal answers.
This might have been an interesting debate and certainly beneficial.
The concept of integrity, a quality that is generally lacking in our world society, is really important to understand for serious and genuine people.
And I DO regard MA people as such.

No, what more reason is needed? The case I stated is merely an example, I hold no such religious beliefs.

Point 1. - I agree!

so far so good...

Point 2. - Doing the 'right thing' has nothing to do with morality.

Now that seems odd, what then do you mean by "The right thing", In what sense is "HARMING an innocent creature purely without any good reason. " doing something wrong then?

Point 3. - Epistomology is not the ultimate authority on 'morality' or what is 'right or wrong'

Huh? I think you misunderstand what I said.

It is impossible for us to know if any moral truths exist. This knowledge is simply unavailable to us no matter how hard we look.

Epistemology is the study of knowledge, what sorts of things we can and cannot know is a part of that. To say that it is epistemologically impossible is to say that we can not obtain such knowledge.

Point 4. - This sounds like a statement of a confused person.

Excellant counter, I can't argue with that. (said sarcastically)

And briefly on your definition of 'EVIL' being the opposite of 'GOOD':
That definition is inadequate as you now first have to define 'GOOD' before you can assess the value of it's opposite.

right.... evil is not something that can be defined in the way you want me to define it. Not to mention it is irrelevant to the example I proposed. The counter-factual 'me' need not be educated in philosophy, it is only required that I hold these beliefs, whether they can't hold up when examined is irrelevant.

So! .... the discussion can only continue and bear fruit if you are prepared to base your statement on real observations. :-)

Why? The counter-factual me 'could' exist.

I would certainly be interested to hear your true views and thoughts. And it would be nice to hear those of some of the other members also.

regards

That would take a while...

Andy Murray

16-May-2002, 12:43 AM

If Ingegrity is doing what is right, how do we judge who has it and who doesn't? Right is different for each individual or geographic region. What is done on one side of the globe would probably get you 15-20 in the US lol

Is our personal Integrity something that other people can judge?

Perhaps it is, but surely it is more important that we, as individuals value our Integrity, rather than have others find us lacking!

AndyM

pesilat

16-May-2002, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Andy Murray

Is our personal Integrity something that other people can judge?

Well, really, I think that "integrity" has two sides.

In Silat, the terms "hormat" and "adat" are used. My understanding of these terms may not be 100% accurate and I may be missing some nuances. But overall, I think these can be used to describe the two sides of integrity.

"Adat" refers to how we act toward others. "Hormat" refers to how our actions are perceived by others.

So, "adat" is like "internal integrity" ... it's how we perceive our own integrity and it governs our actions. "Hormat" would be like "external integrity" ... how others perceive our integrity based on our actions.

In this way, "proper" adat is not always "proper" hormat. For instance, if I'm talking to an Indonesian with my arms crossed then my "adat" is fine. In my perception I'm doing nothing wrong. But my "hormat" is screwed. The Indonesian (unless he makes allowances because I'm a rude and ignorant American) will perceive my actions as rude ... and that's assuming he doesn't flat out attack me. Crossed arms is considered an aggressive and confrontational stance. Same with hands on hips.

So, as my instructor once explained it, if both parties consider something proper hormat then it is proper hormat, regardless of what others aside from the concerned parties may think. But if one concerned party considers it improper hormat then it is improper hormat ... regardless of what anyone else (in or out of the concerned parties) thinks.

I think integrity, in application if not definition, also has these two sides.

A funny story related to this: Herman Suwanda (an Indonesian Silat instructor) was talking about the Indonesian perception of crossed arms or hands on hips at a seminar. I asked him about hands in pockets. He said, "It's not considered confrontational, but I'd attack first."
I said, "What do you mean?"
He said, "Well, in Indonesia, we don't have pockets like you do here in America. If someone has his hand inside his clothes like that he's probably pulling a knife."

In America we don't think anything of people putting their hands in their pockets ... maybe we should :)

Mike

Andrew Green

16-May-2002, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by Andy Murray

Is our personal Integrity something that other people can judge?

Perhaps, but what good does that serve us in the end? That person believes that it is the right thing to do to put cats in the microwave, since ge does it he has personal integrity.

Maybe another one that doesn't involve cats :D

That person feels that crashing a plane into the WTC is a good thing to do, so he has personal integrity.

Perhaps it is, but surely it is more important that we, as individuals value our Integrity, rather than have others find us lacking!

Ok, It's better to put cats in the microwave if you believe it the right thing, even if people will think poorly of you.

It's better to crash planes into the WTC if you think it is the right thing to do, regardless of what others will think of you.

Andy Murray

16-May-2002, 09:40 AM

Just read the post, think about it, and leave the d*amn cats alone Mr Green!

;)

Thomas Vince

18-May-2002, 02:41 AM

He can't be serious. Cats are evil? They can be cruel in the playing with their victims, but evil?
Geeze I'm gone for awhile and everyone has gone crazy! People in Europe once did not like cats either, it brought the plaque!

Thomas

Melanie

18-May-2002, 10:33 AM

'He can't be serious. Cats are evil? '

Thomas - He's Canadian.

The cats apparently had very good teeth (plaque) but really mean fleas! (plague)

Thomas Vince

18-May-2002, 12:02 PM

Stop it! No wonder Ag doesn't like cats they keep biting him with their good teeth? Actually woul they not have bad teeth. What do you mean by Canadian? Enlighten me?
Thomas

Melanie

18-May-2002, 09:34 PM

Let me give you an example of what US ENGLISH have as a good idea of Canadians. Have you heard of Monty Python?

"I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok, I work all night and I sleep all day.....I wear tights, suspenders and a bra, just like me dear ole Ma"

Written by John Cleese...

(Hahaha)

Andrew Green

18-May-2002, 11:51 PM

If your going to do it, do it right :D

BARBER:
I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay.
I sleep all night and I work all day.

MOUNTIES:
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

BARBER:
I cut down trees. I eat my lunch.
I go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
And have buttered scones for tea.

MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He eats his lunch.
He goes to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays he goes shoppin'
And has buttered scones for tea.
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

BARBER:
I cut down trees. I skip and jump.
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars.

MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He skips and jumps.
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around in bars?!
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

BARBER:
I cut down trees. I wear high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie,
Just like my dear Papa.

MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He wears high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra?!
[talking]
What's this? Wants to be a girlie?! Oh, My!
And I thought you were so rugged! Poofter!
[singing]
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.
He's a lumberjack, and he's okaaaaay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

Andrew Green

18-May-2002, 11:58 PM

The Philosophy forum song.

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.

Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.

David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel,

And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.

There's nothing Nietzche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.

John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.

Plato, they say, could stick it away--
Half a crate of whiskey every day.

Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle.
Hobbes was fond of his dram,

And René Descartes was a drunken fart.
'I drink, therefore I am.'

Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed,
A lovely little thinker,
But a bugger when he's pissed

And Melanie, who tried to make fun of me,
will join the cat and that will be the end of that.

Andy Murray

19-May-2002, 12:27 AM

Yup,

He's a Canadian alright!

Andy

Andrew Green

19-May-2002, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Yup,

He's a Canadian alright!

Andy

MMMMM... Beer.

Besides Canadian martial arts are much better then British. So long as I'm not armed with any fresh fruit I'll pull your jacket over your head and beat you while my pet beaver cuts you off at the ankles.

Melanie

19-May-2002, 02:00 AM

Ok - I think we have been silly enough now...what an earth was this thread about again?

Ahhh - yes - Integrity...

Sorry Yoda!

Greyghost

19-May-2002, 12:25 PM

you guys all need some serious help......

taesujutsu

06-Oct-2002, 02:41 AM

Hi Yoda,

Good qoute.

I would like to think I do for the most part. Not only as a martial artist, but also as a minister. Of course like Mike said..none of us are perfect. I always try to remember two things that I have been taught all my life.

1) "You may be the only version anyone ever sees of your religiuos beliefs, make it a good one."

2) "You leave a part of yourself behind with everyones life that you touch."

I would like to think that I have left a good version of me with the people I meet. But the truth is, we may never know for sure.

Oh well, I think the best anyone of us can do is to try to be the best person we can be...if we can't look ourselves in the mirror every morning without knowing that we can at least try to be a good, honest, compassionate human, chances are noone else will see it that way either. ;)

Peace,
Tae

P.S. Mike, Right on with the Donuts. :)

Sean O

26-Oct-2002, 05:22 PM

Yoda once started a thread called "This could take a few posts" in whch he posted Matt Thornton's view of training "Alive". At first It didnt seem relevant to this topic to me, but now that I'm hearing this adat hormat stuff, I think it is.

External Ingegrity (hormat) sounds alot like "image", and Internal Integrity (adat) sounds alot like "performance".

There was another thread called "Black Arts" (or something along those lines) which got around to the topic of good and evil. It ended with the agreement that everyone sees good and evil differently (although I will agree that there are some things that anyone who isnt legally insane will agree is evil, although they may be driven to do it for some reason).

I think that integrity is a sort of definition for how we've made our lives, which of course consists of how you view your life and how others view their life. Performace and Image. Adat and Hormat. Of course, in order to have good external integrity, one must have done the "right" thing on many occasions. So I guess its just a way of measuring how well we've lived our lives.

I hope this leaves room for debate :)

Sean O

Terry Matthes

28-Oct-2002, 05:10 AM

/me has seen Andrew's pet beaver, stay clear of it as I have seen its wrathy wake of destuction on many occasions. Speaking of things to stay clear of; how about Karate class on your birthday!

Onto the matter at hand. . . . Integrity = (in my definition) morale soundness. If we look at morality as "a state of individual psychological well-being based upon a sense of confidence and usefulness and purpose" then you can clearly see that evil people can have integrity. If a person wants to do something we "normal" folk consider wrong (kill, steal, put mammals under intense high frequency electro-magnetic waves) that does not take away from their integrity as long as they belive it is the right thing to do and they can morally justify it. Say good ol Mr.X decides to "nuke" his cat. Mr.X thinks the cat is just getting too expensive, between the vet bills, the food, and repairing his scratched furniture he just can't afford the cat. Next Mr.X uses his set of values (which maybe diffrent from yours or mine) to determine if this is the right thing to do:
Having the cat = spending money and time on something that just perpetually costs more money and time.
Having no cat = more money and more time and less worry.
conclusion = getting rid of the cat would do me good and I like the smell of baked mammalian.

The values of the argument are arbitrary so there is no use to argue them in further posts, I just used them as an example as how Mr.X morally justified getting rid of his cat. The key though is that Mr.X has to truly belive that what he is doing is right.

Jim

28-Oct-2002, 09:18 PM

I think Mr. X needs a good ass whoppin' ;)

Sean O

28-Oct-2002, 10:49 PM

I agree though, "moral soundness" is a good way of putting it. I've been looking through some dictionaries, and I couldn't find a descriptive term for integrity. So really you can only have integrity on an intrapersonal level.

I still think that "Hormat" is image, which in the long run, doesnt mean much.

Sean O

28-Oct-2002, 10:50 PM

Oh yeah, and I think that anyone who wants to nuke their cat must either be crazy, or really hate the thing!:D

robertmap

13-Nov-2002, 05:53 PM

Hi Gang,

Mikey said:
I went to a private seminar carrying a box of Krispy Kreme donuts. A close friend (for all intents and purposes, my brother) looked at his instructor and said, "See, two things Mikey takes seriously: his training and his donuts."

A couple of years ago I was teaching my Tai Chi group (We do 24 move 'Peiking' style) - And we realised that the whole form is about doughnuts....

Part Wild Horses Mane - is actually "Would you like a dounnut"

Single Whip - is actually "You can't have my doughnut"

and so on........

I'm teaching Tai Chi tonight.... I'm hungry.......

All the best.

Robert.

http://www.p-k-j.org