sambo and systema..is there a difference?

[rsundermann]

Howdy,
Just curious if there is a difference between systema and sambo? Is systema a newer version? Advantages and disadvantages?
thanks
ryan

[SoKKlab]

Hi Ryan,
They aren't the same, although I can see why you would think that they were.

Sambo (or Sombo, Cambo etc), is a jacket wrestling Grappling orientated style. Essentially formed in 1920's Soviet Union from a mix of Indigenous Russian/ European and Indo-European wrestlings styles, with Judo and Ju-Jitsu mixed in (This being in response to the Russians losing the war with the Japanese in 1899-1901, sorry if the history is slightly wrong).

Russian troops lost out to the Japanese in unarmed combat at close quarters during that Conflict, even though they had the advantage of superior size and straength on their side.

Sombo went in two directions. One as a sport so that the art could be proliferated and two as Combat Sombo, which is the Military system.

Systema is best explained as another system of Military origin which like Aikido, Tai Chi Chuan, Ju jitsu etc uses the weight, power etc of the attacker against them.

Have a look at the R.O.S.S website or at

http://www.ermaa.com/pages/index.htm
These may help to explain more..

Good Luck

[RobP]

Combat sombo is the style most often taught to the "ordinary" spets or para type units, KGB, etc.

The term "systema" covers a few different schools, it's a bit of a generic term. Generally, though, it's taught more to specialist units - undercover, high-risk, ministry of interior units, etc. The approach and training methods are different from sombo.

In fact there is a workshop comgin up from a former KGB sombo champion, now switched to systema, on the differences between the two. More info at:

www.systemauk.com

cheers

[Adam]

Actually, the russian Spetznatz are competent in systema, not sombo.

[RobP]

No, most of the Spets train in combat sombo. Specialist units train in the system.

[Sonshu]

There are a number of moves that cross over from Sombo to Systema but Systema has many other parts to it.

The Spets are Systema trained not Sombo. Sombo is the generic Russian Martial Arts military style.

Sombo does not cover knife defence as standard.

[RobP]

Well I can only tell you that when I was at a Spets base last month the guys there were fighting using combat sombo. When someone asked Mikhail Ryabko why they were not using systema he replied that systema is only tuaght to / used by some of the specialist units within spets.

[Sonshu]

with say its common to all spets as its there main art?

[RobP]

No worries - who have you trained with out of interest?

[Sonshu]

At a seminar (only for short bit) also lots of other people that have trained for a while - Alan Cain etc.

[RobP]

Alan's a good guy, not so sure about Rob Poynton ;)

[Sonshu]

Message me as I only trained with him on one seminar. Do you do Systema or Sombo?

[Sonshu]

How are you then and where do you train Cambs?

[RobP]

I do Systema - oour website is at www.systemauk.com

- and I was joking about Rob Poyton ;-)

[Sonshu]

Self!

:D

[RobP]

Oops, missed your other post!

Cheers,

Rob

[Sonshu]

No problem - trained on your session during the UK meet 2002!

Good fun as I was hitting Alan which was also strangly good! :D

[marc hall]

Rob,
the KGB guys, or there elite troops "ALPHA" are not trained in combat sambo, but are trained in the SMERSH system,which is not unlike combat sambo but it is different......... in RMA there seems to be several versions of the system, it seems each instructor has taken what he has been taught then added to it,your style being that that was taught to stalins bodyguards,i believe the para units train in a full contact karate style

marc

[Pugil]

Howdy,
Just curious if there is a difference between systema and sambo? Is systema a newer version? Advantages and disadvantages?
thanks
ryan

CAMBO/SAMBO/SOMBO

As I understand it, at the time of the 1917 Russian Revolution, Vasily Oschepkov was asked to create a system of unarmed combat specifically for Specialist Red Army troops.

Realising that this was a big undertaking, Oschepkov sought the assistance of a famous Russian wrestler called Anatoly Arkadevich Kharlampiev. Together they came up with what they later (in 1923) called Cambo [Russian spelling], also known in English spelling as Sambo or Sombo.

The rules for the Sport of Sambo/Sombo Wrestling were drawn up sometime later with the help of a well-known Russian Judoka named Victor Speredonov. Sport Sambo/Sombo was a somewhat watered down version of the original version of Sambo/Sombo, and a far cry from what was taught originally. The term Combat- Military- or Battle-Sambo is sometimes used to differentiate between Sport Sambo and Combat Sombo.

As time went on, the original version of Sambo/Sombo was continually evaluated and further developed, not only for the use of various Soviet Army personnel, but also for such people as the the KGB Komitet Gosudarstvennoi Bezopasnosti State Security Committee (Soviet Secret Police) and the MVD Ministerstvo vnutrennikh del (Ministry of Internal Affairs).

Further reading: Combat Sombo - Russian Martial Art by Ollie Batts (yes I know, but what the hell!) ISBN 1 900855 00 3

I am currently waiting for Amazon to get me a copy of, 'Wrestling Sambo - The Secret Combat Art of the Former Soviet Union for Special Forces and Real Self Protection' by Gintas Bukauskas.


ROSS/SYSTEMA

According to the Publishers of Alexader Retuinskih's book, Russian Style of Hand-to-Hand Combat - The "Ross" Training System, "ROSS is an acronym for "Rossijskaya Otechestvennaya Sistema Samozashchity" or in English, "Russian Native System of Self-Defence"."

The Publishers also inform us that ROSS was developed by Grandmaster Alexander Ivanovich Retuinskih (author of the book). They go on to explain that "ROSS is not a fighting style, but a system of methodical training. The ROSS Training System is a scientific method of Performance Enhancement, that will help you reveal your natural talents, and help you forge an integrated combat philosophy. ROSS can accelerate your development in any form of martial art, combat sport, or physical culture."

On the back cover of the book it says, "This is the ONLY manual in the world on Russian Martial Art as it is truly taught in Russia and to elite combat subdivisions of the Russian Special Forces, such as Ministries of Interior, Security and Defence, MVD special units "Vityaz," OMON Task Forces, VDV Paratroopers, Russian Marines of Vladivostok and Sevastopol, elite protection guard of Baikanor Space-launch Installation, Minsk's "Al'fa" units in Byelorus, frontier guard of Lithuania, and many others."

I leave it to you to pick the bones out of that lot, as I am truly still none-the-wiser myself!

Pugil