Learning to take punches

[Paul Genge]

The following is an article (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page38.html) on Systema's approach to taking strikes. It includes a short video clip that shows the progression of some of the drills used to learn this kind of work.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Ars Northwest (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[JinkokMike]

Wow I like that article thanks for posting Paul :D
I didn't know that you could go so deep into the mechanics and emotions of taking punches.

Thanks
-Mike-

[CosmicFish]

Great article!

Small bug near the end of page two: " For a clip showing the basic progression of these drills click here." - there's no link there.

[Paul Genge]

Sorry,

The computer and I do not always get on. I have reloaded that page and the clip is now on it.

Thanks for telling me.

Paul Genge

[Joseph5]

That was interesting. However the clip only showed body shots. I wonder how these guys would stand up to catching blows to the head, using the same technique?

[Paul Genge]

As I explained in the article the approach to head shots is different. If you get hit on the jaw you allow your head to tilt so that the shot slides off. As for hits to other parts of the head by being relaxed you can lesson the effect they have, but you may still get knocked out or stunned by it. After all this is not magic we are practicing, just martial arts.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[CosmicFish]

Looks pretty good, although the punches didn't look all that strong (am I being naive here?) Do you ever practise with particularly strong punches?

Also, do you drill many blocks in systema? How do you incorporate your punch-taking with your blocks?

[brimbleboy]

u dont need nun of this systema stuff... u just need 2 stand ur ground and take it like a man :woo:

[Lithanwif]

A bruised and battered man?

[RobP]

"Do you ever practise with particularly strong punches?"

Yes - though punches can often feel harder than they look

"Also, do you drill many blocks in systema? How do you incorporate your punch-taking with your blocks?"

We don't really aim to block as such, more use movement and / or deflection or attacking the punching arm.

"A bruised and battered man?" Actually once you have the method down there are suprisingly few bruises.

There's also some strike-taking work on this clip:
http://www.systemauk.com/video/NBLIN.WMV

cheers
Rob

[Paul Genge]

The person doing the punching is Peter Martin. You can see his full martial arts background on my testimonials page :) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page51.html). As you can see this included two years western and Muay Thai boxing. For your information he endended hurting his fists during the demo due to how hard he was hitting.

As far as bruising is concerned the body seems to reset the level it bruises at. Taking a few shots like that does not leave me with visable bruises anymore.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[Lord Spooky]

The person doing the punching is Peter Martin. You can see his full martial arts background on my testimonials page :) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page51.html). As you can see this included two years western and Muay Thai boxing. For your information he endended hurting his fists during the demo due to how hard he was hitting.

As far as bruising is concerned the body seems to reset the level it bruises at. Taking a few shots like that does not leave me with visable bruises anymore.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

Just to back up what Paul has said;

The punches are a bit deceptive they may not look it becuase of how they are delivered but trust me they are hard. :eek:

I still get the odd bruise cuz I'm still working on taking strikes but yep I agree with Paul you don't tend to get many, may get redness of the skin from the contact but very little bruising.

[Paul Genge]

Peter was not told to hit a specific way for the demo. He was just told to hit as hard as he can.

Paul Genge

[JinkokMike]

u dont need nun of this systema stuff... u just need 2 stand ur ground and take it like a man :woo:

What so you can just get battered lol

[Paul Genge]

Only way to learn I am afraid. Unless you want the lesson to happen when you get into a real fight.

Paul Genge

[JinkokMike]

Only way to learn I am afraid. Unless you want the lesson to happen when you get into a real fight.

Paul Genge

Fair enough Paul.

[CosmicFish]

Thanks for the replies Paul / Rob / spooky. I've been curious about Systema for a while but, realistically, I shouldn't try it out right now as I have far too much else going on in my life! :cry:

Just for future reference though - could you recommend any classes in West London?

[Paul Genge]

Try this club. (http://www.systemalondon.com/default.htm)

Paul Genge

[gray fox]

Looks pretty good, although the punches didn't look all that strong (am I being naive here?) Do you ever practise with particularly strong punches?

Also, do you drill many blocks in systema? How do you incorporate your punch-taking with your blocks?

Like other martial arts that practise conditioning, they proably build their way up?

[Lord Spooky]

:D You just have to watch out for the Cossack Whip!!!

Left marks for a week that did :eek: :cry:

[JinkokMike]

Yeh I agree you don't see anybody go to a club and start getting hit as hard as possible whilst doing conditioning exercises unless it's a Mc dojo of course.

[Lord Spooky]

Like other martial arts that practise conditioning, they proably build their way up?


We do at the club I train at but to be honest, for me, it was more of a matter of learning to relax and to "let go" once that clicks other bits start to fall into place.

[Jesh]

u dont need nun of this systema stuff... u just need 2 stand ur ground and take it like a man :woo:

Sure... :bang:

[baederp]

That was a cool article. I like the practical, anti-magical approach to this type of iron shirt training.

I have a military background and appreciate highly militaristic arts and have had some interest in the Russian arts. This has helped.

Thanks,

[Paul Genge]

I am putting an article together on our approach to striking. When complete I will post it on MAP.

Paul Genge

[Fighting-Irish]

nice article!

[Timmy Boy]

Sorry to be the voice of dissent, but I'm not sure I totally agree with this.

While the in-depth explanation of the mechanics and emotions of taking strikes seems impressive, to me it seems overcomplicated. Inhaling and exhaling at the right time when taking a punch, for example, is not going to be the first thing on your list of priorities when you're in a fight. I think the concept of being relaxed is a good general principle though.

I really think that there's no substitute for hard sparring to teach you how to take a hit. After a while you will just learn how to react when someone hits you and the shock value will start to wear off.

I don't know much about systema, so of course correct me if I'm wrong Paul, but this just seems to be another one of those drills designed to make it possible to avoid proper sparring.

[MaS_OyaMa]

That was interesting. However the clip only showed body shots. I wonder how these guys would stand up to catching blows to the head, using the same technique?

I'm quoting Frank Mir from UFC:

"You can take face shots, and recover... and body shots are the ones that really get to you.. You can take a few to the face, but the body shots effect you more."

(Something to that extent.)

Thanks-- :)

[The Dragon]

This is crap in this video clip they are preparing there self to get hit, like Bruce says one should never have to preparer but always be ready.

[MaS_OyaMa]

Sorry to be the voice of dissent, but I'm not sure I totally agree with this.

While the in-depth explanation of the mechanics and emotions of taking strikes seems impressive, to me it seems overcomplicated. Inhaling and exhaling at the right time when taking a punch, for example, is not going to be the first thing on your list of priorities when you're in a fight. I think the concept of being relaxed is a good general principle though.

I really think that there's no substitute for hard sparring to teach you how to take a hit. After a while you will just learn how to react when someone hits you and the shock value will start to wear off.

I don't know much about systema, so of course correct me if I'm wrong Paul, but this just seems to be another one of those drills designed to make it possible to avoid proper sparring.

There ARE mechanics to taking hits in a fight... but just how long are you going to sit around and get hit to LEARN how much it hurts? Not long-- your going to neutralize that opponent as quickly as possible, so he can't get any more shots in....

[MaS_OyaMa]

This is crap in this video clip they are preparing there self to get hit, like Bruce says one should never have to preparer but always be ready.

But what if your opponent is skilled enough to actually "slip" one in... you should always condition yourself mentally, as well as physically...

"Block" out the pain, and take him out as quickly as possible.

You must learn to have a clear mind when entering combat... Oh, sure, you may take a few hits, but are you going to let those hits stop you? No--

No matter what... go straight towards the enemy, and take him out.

Ever heard of Sen-no-sen? It's a japanese term meaning "attack-the-attack".

[RobP]

This is crap in this video clip they are preparing there self to get hit, like Bruce says one should never have to preparer but always be ready.

And how do you learn to be ready? This is the foundation work that then goes into your other work, sparring, etc

[Paul Genge]

It is funny how some people look at something and see it for what it is and how others have such a narrow perspective on training (and probably life) that they will never get the point.

This drill is part of the whole. The whole is applying the system to life threatening situations. Not only have my instructors done this during their millitary careers, I have done so during nine years of front line Policing.

Hard sparring is a useful tool to some degree when done with pads. The thing that makes it possible, the pads, are also thing causes it's limitations.

Also the mentality of trying to win and not just survive is very harmful to you in a fight. Many a time I have tried to win and apply some sort of technique. It always went wrong. On the occassions I just reacted naturally Things worked out well. Competitive sparring teaches you to win not survive.

Paul Genge

[NaughtyKnight]

The link doesnt work anymore.

[NaughtyKnight]

Well I like the video. Looks pretty decent.

[fixationdarknes]

Well the only bad thing about this I see is that they are hitting pretty slowly. What happens when someone hits 3x faster?

[hidden_lion]

On the systema striking video you can hear the satisfying hollow thud of the strikes being delivered. they are definately hitting with force.

[Lord Spooky]

Well the only bad thing about this I see is that they are hitting pretty slowly. What happens when someone hits 3x faster?


Trust me it may look slow and it may be slow but when the hit comes it's hard
remember hard is not fast and soft is not slow!

To answer your question pretty much the same thing happens when you are hit faster just some of the movement may be shortened. I’ve found that the slow work teaches your body or even helps it to remember how to move correctly but when the work is put up a level you react on more of a sub conscious level i.e. do as opposed to think.

I remember one time when I was I’ll use the term sparring for want of a better one with my instructor. I took a hit to the side of my chest and thought nothing of it then I noticed he had taken a step back and was smirking :D which confused me so I took a step forward and Bang the pain in the centre of my chest just ballooned. I hadn’t felt the hit too much in fact I thought it’d just glanced off me!

Anyway what I’m saying is to really understand the clip you have to feel the strikes as they can work on a number of levels.

[Lord Spooky]

On the systema striking video you can hear the satisfying hollow thud of the strikes being delivered. they are definately hitting with force.


LOL

That's a good description

[Paul Genge]

Speed is not an issue. The guy punching was simply asked to punch as hard as he could. Prior to the clip being shot I had to telling him to step up a gear because he was holding back subconciously. This happens when you are not used to hitting people without gloves.

For the record my partner in this drill comes from a western and muay thai background. He was not shown or told to punch in any specific way.

Paul Genge

[Timmy Boy]

Hard sparring is a useful tool to some degree when done with pads. The thing that makes it possible, the pads, are also thing causes it's limitations.

If you use fingerless 4oz MMA gloves, is there really that much limitation on what you can do?

Also the mentality of trying to win and not just survive is very harmful to you in a fight. Many a time I have tried to win and apply some sort of technique. It always went wrong. On the occassions I just reacted naturally Things worked out well. Competitive sparring teaches you to win not survive.

I can agree with this to some degree. When I do groundfighting, for example, I'm supposed to try and submit the other guy, when my instinct is often to just try and stand up as quickly as possible - which would probably be a better idea on teh street.

[RobP]

If you use fingerless 4oz MMA gloves, is there really that much limitation on what you can do?


It's a difficult one. For instance, last week we were working a drill to punch the attacking arm as it comes in. I demo'd it with bag gloves on, one of the guys was firing off punches at me and I was wacking his arms. We then tried it without the gloves - it took one bare knuckle hit and he stopped punching.

I find gloves can be usefull for some things - in mass attack for instance they can reduce the risk of injury a bit. I guess there has to be a compromise for safety somewhere, whether it's in speed, power or protection if you aren't going to injure people every session.

cheers

[fixationdarknes]

Trust me it may look slow and it may be slow but when the hit comes it's hard
remember hard is not fast and soft is not slow!

I didn't say anything about how hard the punches are. I said the speed of the punching. I doubt anyone who fights you will actually give you that much time to recover inbetween punches.

[Paul Genge]

Quite right often you can be hit with a combination. Whilst in Russia we witnessed a miilitary boxer use a systema expert as a heavy bag. All he did was tire himself out and hurt his knuckles. Practicing these drills allowed him to do this.

Paul Genge

[fixationdarknes]

Interesting. Did the systema expert just breath in-and-out very quickly or what?

Another thing: Bruce Lee said to keep your teetch clenched when fighting because if your mouth is open and you get hit in your mouth, your jaw could be at risk of breaking. What do you have to say about that?

[oosh]

Yes that's correct, if your jaws open and you take a hit on it will more than likely break. Though I must add I don't think Bruce pioneered the "closing your jaw when fighting approach" ;)

[fixationdarknes]

lol...but that was in his movies. I doubt he made all those monkey noises through his mouth when he fought for his life on the streets.

[RobP]

Interesting. Did the systema expert just breath in-and-out very quickly or what?

There's a short clip of some of that incident here

http://www.systemauk.com/video/MOSC1.WMV

cheers

Rob

[NaughtyKnight]

Lol, Russia is obviously too cheap for heavy bags. :D

[Lord Spooky]

Lol, Russia is obviously too cheap for heavy bags. :D


"If you want to learn to hit someone then you have to hit someone"

My instructors response when I asked him if there were any bag drills in Systema when I first started! :D

[CosmicFish]

OK, I'm now convinced. :) How long does it take to be able to take punches like that big bloke was?

[Lord Spooky]

OK, I'm now convinced. :) How long does it take to be able to take punches like that big bloke was?


The instructors can probably answer this better than I but I'm going to anyway :D

I know couldn't take hits from Mikhail yet like the guy in the clip!! but in my training in class it didn't take too long a month or two maybe just to get the hang of the initial steps. Then your confidence grows from there.

Once I learned to relax and let go then it came together pretty quickly. I've been smacked with sticks, chains, fist and foot and it's all been delt with....the cossack whip is another story though THAT still scares the hell out of me :D

[essentrik1]

It is funny how some people look at something and see it for what it is and how others have such a narrow perspective on training (and probably life) that they will never get the point.

This drill is part of the whole. The whole is applying the system to life threatening situations. Not only have my instructors done this during their millitary careers, I have done so during nine years of front line Policing.

Hard sparring is a useful tool to some degree when done with pads. The thing that makes it possible, the pads, are also thing causes it's limitations.

Also the mentality of trying to win and not just survive is very harmful to you in a fight. Many a time I have tried to win and apply some sort of technique. It always went wrong. On the occassions I just reacted naturally Things worked out well. Competitive sparring teaches you to win not survive.

Paul Genge
I'm not done reading so some one may have brought this up. But this seems like a good starting point. This would be a good way to *start* learning how to take hits. Then you have to go to sparring. And I don't know about you, but we do hard sparring with only cups and mouthpieces. I think it's been about 3 years since we'be had anything that could be counted as a serious injury, and any time we do have one, it can always be traced back to some one doing something wrong (usually something that would have resulted in the same injury even with pads). If you train for it, contact sparring is not nearly as dangerous as everyone makes it out to be. You just have to adjust. Don't try to strike through the body, just a little into it. When I hit, I want them to definately feel it. I've bruised ribs, but I've never broken any. I think that the end point is the part that people miss. On the street I'm going to try to essentially punch through a guy (if I through a punch), whereas in class I stop it a little into the body. Change your target a little and you can still make pretty good contact.

I hope that makes sense, I probably repeated myself, I always have trouble making this point in real life, much less here.

[Paul Genge]

In some ways your approach is good because you are learning to react against full speed hits. However how can you say you are doing full contact sparring if you are pulling your punches?

You are simply ingraining the habbit of holding back. Trust me I have been there. In real combat you will hold back out of habbit.

Paul Genge

[NaughtyKnight]

This ma sounds very intresting.

I've always wanted to try Russian ma after playing Dead or Alive 2 :D:D.

In all seriousness, I wonder if there is a school here in Aus.

[Paul Genge]

There have been a couple of Ausies who have made the trip to Vlad's. It is worth checking out his site and seeing if any of them are near you. If not you are in the same boat as the rest of us and forced to do serious travel to get your training.

Good luck with the search.

Paul Genge

[royder1976]

The person doing the punching is Peter Martin. You can see his full martial arts background on my testimonials page :) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page51.html). As you can see this included two years western and Muay Thai boxing. For your information he endended hurting his fists during the demo due to how hard he was hitting.

As far as bruising is concerned the body seems to reset the level it bruises at. Taking a few shots like that does not leave me with visable bruises anymore.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)


There is no way that guy hurt his hand in that demo becasue he was hitting hard. If he is trained in any Martial Art he wuld not hurt his hand that easily. My JuJuitsu teacher used to do that to us all the time. From behind. the legs and all. I doubt that he was hitting as hard as he could also.

[marcus f]

hey c any of u du kung fu? If u got into a fight in the street would u attemp a high kick to the face like???

[Yohan]

hey c any of u du kung fu? If u got into a fight in the street would u attemp a high kick to the face like???

Depends

[Lord Spooky]

There is no way that guy hurt his hand in that demo becasue he was hitting hard. If he is trained in any Martial Art he wuld not hurt his hand that easily. My JuJuitsu teacher used to do that to us all the time. From behind. the legs and all. I doubt that he was hitting as hard as he could also.


er I seem to recall watching a UFC match where the fighter won by KO but he came away with a broken hand!!! :eek:

[Lord Spooky]

hey c any of u du kung fu? If u got into a fight in the street would u attemp a high kick to the face like???


hmm well it depends would it be against a Bear or Giant Squid!!!!


Please go ask in the Kung Fu forum!!

[Dr.Quinn]

hey c any of u du kung fu? If u got into a fight in the street would u attemp a high kick to the face like???
Kind of a big subject change isnt it? Yes, i personally would, but not every fight requires it.

Back to systema...

I just dont know about this. First, shouldnt you train harder on not being hit then on being hit? Not to say that you shouldnt work on taking a blow, but to me allowing somebody to punch you repeatedly just because you can take it is rediculous. Paul, you talk about 'if you train to pull back you will in a street fight', well what do you have to say about brass nuckles or knives? According to your theory your going to let them hit you subcontiously because thats how you trained. I dont think breathing properly is going to help against a knife or brass knuckles, and by the end you might not be breathing at all! Quite frankly, if I'm going to let a person attack at all, they might as well have to do it from a distance, which allows me time to block/dodge/counter. Im talking about keeping people away w/ sidekicks and whatever you like. Maybe this is easier for me since im 6'4 but if somebody gets in close enough to hit me, im driving them right back until they're in my zone, but im not in theirs, understand what i mean? And im going to do it as fast as possible, thus reducing the opportunity of being struck.

Finally I would just like to add that this post is ment to be constructive, I'm in no way attempting to put down systema. I am a firm believer that every style has something to offer. All i'm saying is that if you are very good at blocks/dodges/and counters then yes, being able to be hit a bit is a good thing to add to you collection of MA skillz :D. But if you dont have those things down, you might as well be doing this --> :bang:

PEACE!
DocQ

[Dr.Quinn]

hmm well it depends would it be against a Bear or Giant Squid!!!!


lol :D

Im pretty sure he meant against a bear...

[royder1976]

er I seem to recall watching a UFC match where the fighter won by KO but he came away with a broken hand!!! :eek:



Yes, of course it is possible to break your hand in a Full Contact fight but not in that demonstration.

[Lord Spooky]

Yes, of course it is possible to break your hand in a Full Contact fight but not in that demonstration.


You understand how strikes are delivered in Systema and the basic princilpes of the art? yeah?

You can't be assuming all this based on 60 seconds of video clip can you? :rolleyes:



Oh and I don't think Paul said the chap broke his hand??

[Lord Spooky]

Back to systema...

I just dont know about this. First, shouldnt you train harder on not being hit then on being hit? Not to say that you shouldnt work on taking a blow, but to me allowing somebody to punch you repeatedly just because you can take it is rediculous. Paul, you talk about 'if you train to pull back you will in a street fight', well what do you have to say about brass nuckles or knives? According to your theory your going to let them hit you subcontiously because thats how you trained. I dont think breathing properly is going to help against a knife or brass knuckles, and by the end you might not be breathing at all!


Hi do you mind if I attempt to answer some of your points too? well I'm going to anyway :D :D

We do train to avoid being hit, one of the pillars of Sytema is correct movement! First we escape then we work :) but we also take into consideration the fact that in not all instances is it going to be possible to escape i.e working in a crowd/mass attack or folks lets face it everyone has bad days you can't guarantee yo're going to be quick enough everytime.

There's also an emotional and Psychological element to the Strike training; it builds confidence and lets you discover things about yourself and your limitations and your reaction to stress and fear!

As far as the Brass Knuckles and Knives go then again the first thing we do is escape but again if we are not moving quick enough, as there's always someone faster, we are already moving out of the danger area in a relaxed manner which with a bit of luck should help to minimise any damage we do take. Most of all we keep moving keep working untill it's safe. I'll say again we move, we escape, like any MA we use footwork to put ourselves in a position where we can gain an advantage.

Correct breathing does help against blunt objects. I've done strike training and been hit with not only fist and foot but also sticks, chains and whip. The breathing keeps you relaxed and lessens the chance of panic and freezing. It also lessens the pressure in your body (sorry if that sound strange) giving you a bit more er "Give" internally, probaly got you all thinking I'm a nut now :D

However yet again in this situation we have movement it could be moving the whole body or just a specific area, if in a confined space for example, away from the threat.

What you are seeing is a drill to train a specific area of Systema in a specific way. We are not going to just stand there and take it if it all kicks off we will be working, doing something.

Hope I've made sense? I'm sure Paul or Rob can cover it better.

:)




Finally I would just like to add that this post is ment to be constructive, I'm in no way attempting to put down systema. I am a firm believer that every style has something to offer. All i'm saying is that if you are very good at blocks/dodges/and counters then yes, being able to be hit a bit is a good thing to add to you collection of MA skillz :D. But if you dont have those things down, you might as well be doing this --> :bang:

PEACE!
DocQ


I didn't take it as a put down :) We do have the things you have listed (well I wouldn't say we block as such) we just apply it in a way that isn't really obvious unless you've trained in Systema.

[regs]

I know that in Okinawa Karate, my MA, we work well at all distances. If the area is to confined for a fist, then an elbow or knee works just as well. Not all MA's are designed for longer range, and some just work as well in short range or long range. I think that learning how to take a blow, effectively, is something that needs to be learnt. How else will you be able to take one in a real situation.

Now, I'm not saying that I'm going to go out and find someone to train me in the art. I'm still learning the basics of my art. I think that all MA's have something of value to teach, just like you can learn something from anyone. Whether it be something of value, or just that you don't want to be as big of an idiot as that person. :D

At any rate, thank you for posting that article. I found it very informative and forwarded it on to my sensei for his thoughts on it.

Thanks,
regs

[Paul Genge]

In the system we aim to avoid a hostile situation all together. If this fails and we are attacked we aim to avoid (escape) the attack, often by moving off the line of attack.

If this is not possible we aim to re-direct the attack. Sometimes this is done at the same time as the escape.

When this is not possible or we do not move correctly and get hit it is important to be able to work from the point of contact. Particularly in fights with multiples it is impossible to avoid or re-direct everything.

Paul Genge

[Blunt Blade]

And even if we get hit, we try to keep moving. Something I have seen in both competitions and real world stuff is how movement stops when hits have been landed.

[Dr.Quinn]

Hi do you mind if I attempt to answer some of your points too? well I'm going to anyway :D :D

Of course I dont mind, that is after all the point of a forum :D

I understand now completely, but werent you all talking about a video of a guy just getting pounded because he could take it? I couldnt get the movie to play so i cant really comment on it more then that. I have to guess he was just making a point and not really doing all that he could?

[Dr.Quinn]

And even if we get hit, we try to keep moving. Something I have seen in both competitions and real world stuff is how movement stops when hits have been landed.

That's true, I wouldn't mind learning that...it would probably help my non-stop sparring matches a lot.