Sifu Bing Zhao - IMA master

[kungfucat]

Is anyone here familiar with Sifu Bing ?
He's in Australia and teaches a combination of Bagua and Hsing I.
Love to hear from anyone who has any experience with this great man.

[Conn]

Hey Kungfucat, I'm also in Sydney.

I met Bing once about three years ago. He he was'nt teaching Bagua on it's own (which is my main interest), so I ended up not studying with him. Shame really as I've heard some great reports from a couple of poeple.Do you study with him?

Also do you fancy getting to gether for a little practice?

[SanYuan]

Hello, i have known him for some time. He is the most exceptional and extraordinary man i have ever met.

[theaustralian]

i was in bings class for about a year but i had to take a break. His old webstie is closed down do you think you could giveme his email or something i realy want to start back up again :) thanks

~Scott

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by theaustralian
i was in bings class for about a year but i had to take a break. His old webstie is closed down do you think you could giveme his email or something i realy want to start back up again :) thanks

~Scott
Hi Scott,
I'm in Bing's class.
He's away in China and returns next week.
First class is Sat 31 Jan.
Do you know the location ?
If you need it , please let me know and I will email his tel to you.
Cheers

[nzric]

Hey pandajelly, welcome to the forum, always good to hear from more IMA fanatics, especially locals.

There's quite a few of us Sydneysiders here, would you be able to post the location/times of Sifu Bing's sessions in case more people want to check out the class?

[theaustralian]

thanks pandajelly it would be great if you could give me the details time place ect:) im realy out of practice tho my email is theautralian1@hotmail.com thanks again :D

~Scott

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric


..........would you be able to post the location/times of Sifu Bing's sessions in case more people want to check out the class?


Hey , Nzric,
Thanks. It is a good suggestion.
Due to the highly controversial nature of Master Bing's art, it might not be judicious of me to post such info in an open forum like this.

I consulted Master Bing about this and he has indicated that while he welcomes genuine disciples, he doesn't really need to increase his cash flow this way.


I don't blame him for being selective, his art has a knack for attracting lot's of unsavoury troublemakers, people who come and ask for a quick demo or those more interested in criticising than learning . There are however a few converts who have never looked back once enlightened. His low key website is no longer online.

It is not an elitist issue , it is just not an art for someone who just wants to check it out (for fun) or in the process of "shopping around"
It helps if the potential applicant has some prior background knowledge about Empty Power.
Not fair ?
Life's not fair.
They used to make one wait outside the temple for 6 days under the rain to test a new recruit's determination.
You've got to want to learn it more than you want to breathe .
:-)

[Adc]

Hey Pandajelly
If interested Nzric, Syd and I meet once a week at a park to Push hands and other sensitivity excerises.How about coming along.
PM Syd for info.

[pandajelly]

Hey Scott,
Have emailed Bing's contact details.
If you can't find it in your mailbox, let me know eh?

Cheers,

[Adc]

Originally posted by pandajelly

It is not an elitist issue , it is just not an art for someone who just wants to check it out (for fun) or in the process of "shopping around"
It helps if the potential applicant has some prior background knowledge about Empty Power.
Not fair ?
Life's not fair.

:D Well I take it thats a "No Thanks" or just a "NO"
I do think its petty elitist that you think you understand Nzric's prior knowledge and background ability and discount it.
Strange because in China, people are more then happy to Push with other styles.Our loss, maybe yours,we will never know I guess.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Adc
:D Well I take it thats a "No Thanks" or just a "NO"
I do think its petty elitist that you think you understand Nzric's prior knowledge and background ability and discount it.
Strange because in China, people are more then happy to Push with other styles.Our loss, maybe yours,we will never know I guess.


You are incorrect in you assumption.
Master Bing's teaching is about Chi and Empty Power.
Therefore it is irrelevant to those who don't believe in it, like nzric, if you should review some of his earlier posting like I did.

Your are right, in China people are more than happy "to push with other styles" but usually as a matter of challenging a rival style.
But you obviously have little appreciation of how the more esoteric arts have been shrouded in secrecy, and taught only to dedicated disciples , not just anyone who applies.
Don't universities reserve the right to "pick" who they admit and many will be rejected or not get their first choice.

If elitist means filtering out people who don't know what they want drifting in and out of class then I guess you are right.

Those truly interestd in this art will find the door after much persistence and preservation.
But they need to demonstrate their desire and dedication first.
I did so why should it be different for anyone else.
Isn't that more egalitarian?

[Syd]

I am beginning to wonder if Soggycat, Wang and Pandjelly aren't all the same person. They all sure sound the same...

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Adc
Hey Pandajelly
If interested Nzric, Syd and I meet once a week at a park to Push hands and other sensitivity excerises.How about coming along.
PM Syd for info.

Thanks but I dont do Push Hands.
I'm specialising in Hsing I and get enough practice in class

[Shade]

Originally posted by pandajelly
Thanks but I dont do Push Hands.
I'm specialising in Hsing I and get enough practice in class

Presumably you do push NO hands :D

[pandajelly]

Shade,
Yes. HsingI is a smashing and hammering style

[Syd]

Hey Panda,

I think "push hands" was merely a simplistic expression of one of the things we train in when we get together at the park. The main thing is that we are open to training Internal Arts and teaching eachother and learning from eachother as well as discussing and applying new techniques amongst one another.

The fact is that we are open to most if not all styles and approaches as long as they work and they are practical. We often blend Taiji, Bagua, Chin Na and various other techniques and experiment with what we know searching for new options in training which allow us to improve in our skills.

Bottom line is that we are open minded and far from dogmatic regarding the Internal arts and welcome anyone who wishes to train or learn with the above tenets in mind. The fact that we are not practitioners of empty force should in no way limit your prescence, should you wish to join us, and infact I would think it could give us a great opportunity to experience something which we perhaps (speaking for myself here) have never felt or seen in the flesh. Having said that it would be an opportunity for you to educate and demonstrate it's principles in an open minded forum among fellow internal stylists.

As I said we are open minded in the extreme...if it works it works. Apart from anything your Hsing Yi would be most welcome in training.

Best, Syd

[Kat]

Originally posted by pandajelly
Your are right, in China people are more than happy "to push with other styles" but usually as a matter of challenging a rival style.
Within China at most parks people are happy to Play and Push styles which has no connection to challenages.Sensativity and grounding drills are an excellent way for the styles to practise with each other.Should that turn into something more heated, then this is usually concerned with the individuals ego."Rivial":rolleyes: styles are much more to do with an individuals ego then any reality other then movies.


Originally posted by pandajelly
But you obviously have little appreciation of how the more esoteric arts have been shrouded in secrecy, and taught only to dedicated disciples , not just anyone who applies.

Adc, has lots of appreciation, just not of implied secrecy, he and I both study Chinese language and have both lived for periods in the PRC.
Any esoteric nature is more to do with language, culture and individual differences.
2 years ago I seem to remember Bing Zhao having open clases at a primary school.There was no such selection system in place at that time.
Once again another Sydney Practitioner seems to be saying,
Only I can have access to the True Way.
Considering we all live in the same City,then Syd's meetings would be ideal.Or maybe a less offensive Yum Cha in the coming Month?I think Syd would agree that this goes out to SoggyCat Mad about Bagua,Azael and any other Sydney Practitioners.

Adc, have a good time OS!

[Syd]

Here, here... I am open to meeting with any of the Sydney Internal stylists who frequent the board.

[theaustralian]

Sorry panda i didn't get the email/PM do you think you could send it agian i typed the adress wrong its theaustralian1@hotmail.com thanks.
Guys i dont think this sudject needs to get so heated. I think its more that you need to prolly consult with bing before coming to his class so he can give you the details and if your at all serious about it the that wouldn't be too much to ask. Panda has already stated that bing would prefer such details not given away in a public forum had he is just respecting that decision. so i think you need to back off a bit a and give him a break.

~Scott

[Kat]

I trully don't think this is a heated debate.Nor is anyone trying to get details for anyone.Although I do apologize if this is considered coming on too strong.
People are offering to meet and train together.As I said considering we are from the same city that seems a logical and beneficial idea.

If you don't want too, fine,simply say No Thanks, but making blanket statements to infer that other IMA people "have little appreciation" unable " to demonstrate their desire and dedication first"(unlike you ofcause!)or are "someone who just wants to check it out (for fun) or in the process of shopping around" do seem a tad inflamatory.Once again a diachotomy is created, when none need exist.
Just seems a loss not to come together.Acknowledge that there are different methods each excellent in there individual outlook.
PJ
I have a strong background in Yiquan and am sure we could find some partner work and drills in common.

[nzric]

First of all, I didn't know Bing was an empty power guy, but I respect his decision to take on as many students as he wants. He's running a business after all and if he is happy with the size and make-up of his classes, that's fair enough.

I like to think most of the people in this forum have fairly open minds and even if a few of us don't believe in empty power, we all have an honest willingness to learn. The problem is empty power is an experiential topic - we can debate it in thread after thread here, but the fundamental point is we're not going to change our positions until/unless we see it/feel it ourselves. While us non-empty power believers respect people like you and SC honestly believe it, you need to respect the fact that it makes sense to be sceptical about things like that.

I've been learning IMA for three years now and I've seen and felt a lot of "freaky stuff" that has caused me to change my beliefs. If I had the chance to see a real demonstration of empty power who knows, that may change my pov as well.

Syd, Adc and I have been meeting in the park to share knowledge in an open forum without any pretensions about lineage or style arguments - as we have said, the idea is to blend things, bring ideas and have an open forum. If anyone brought ego into it, I am confident to say that the rest of us would swiftly tell them to pi** off and stop wasting our time. Don't think it's a competitive thing - the bottom line is there aren't many of us in Sydney who are committed to IMA and we should be able to sit around at a Yum Cha or push hands/pass round ideas in the park and just have a good time.

We all have different viewpoints about the internal arts - that's the important thing. It's wrong to say certain people don't have the skills/experience/willingness/discipline to learn what you've learned - you could never know that about someone else. We should all just appreciate the fact that our different opinions makes these threads a lot richer. It would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything.

[theaustralian]

i'm glad were on the same page now, i think that what nzric said how we have to see or feel it for ourselves and we all have different oinions is the key point. I see nothing wrong with discussing different styles and would like to know more about the people who dont particually believe empty power even after seeing or feeling it? where does every1 stand on believing it or not?

[Azrael]

I think Syd would agree that this goes out to SoggyCat Mad about Bagua,Azael and any other Sydney Practitioners.

Personally, I do not know when I will be able to make it to one of the park meets, but am most definately looking forward to doing so in the the very near future. Sounds like alot of fun and a chance to learn alot and meet some great people.

Due to the highly controversial nature of Master Bing's art, it might not be judicious of me to post such info in an open forum like this.

Pandajelly: I was just wondering if the reason behind your motives for withholding such relativly easy to find information was because the art in question is Xing Yi, or because the person teaching it is Bing Zhao?

They used to make one wait outside the temple for 6 days under the rain to test a new recruit's determination.

Yeah, but at least the new recruits knew where to find the temple. :P

[Kat]

I was also unaware that your focus was Empty force although I have practised with serveral styles of Xingyiquan practioners all whose focus was far from concerned with this topic.

I would guess your'll have to define what you mean by empty force?
My understanding
Re : Kongjin empty/vacant,method
In conversations I have had it refers to issueing intense power using small movements(seemingly deriving from nowhere)from a vacant mind targeted at precise areas/angles.I have experienced this on a number of occasions.
I think it is a common goal of IMA to prefect fluid explosive movement channeled by intent(but seemingly before intent can be felt by the opponent) without agression or fear, appiled with excellent timing and optimun distancing.Within language it is usually placed as an accumulation and combination of a higher level then other methods.(tingjin,fajin,pijin,etc)

I am aware that there are other interpretations refering to physical control of others by not touching them.I have not experienced this,taught or been taught this nor do I believe it is the Kongjin I am refering to.I have seen demostrations (including one in Australia by Dr Fong of Imperial Yang tranfering Qi through a staff,and some in Beijing)all of which could not be repeated on me or my training partners.

[SanYuan]

I have known Master Zhao for some time. He is firstly a Daoist and everything else is secondary to him. His aim is to teach people about Dao as was taught in china for thousands of years.

As a Daoist the word 'empty' is a key of its philosophy and a ruling principle in its application. Perhaps it is misleading but there is no other word.

Master Zhao first learnt internal martial arts and later learnt about Daoism, discovering that in China, the practice of IMAists and Daoists was identical amongst his teaches, always following the same principles.

As a Daoist in a foreign country, he tries is best to explain its principles through explenation and examples.

Out of the respect his students have for him, most do no want to freely attract people who might be more interested in proving him wrong than becoming an honest student, i know i fell more confident in recommending some one i know than some one i don't.

I am smiling and curious about peoples discussion of Bing, i know i respect him as much as my own parents and i know he wouldn't want people squabble over him.

Kind regards,
Barry

[Kat]

Originally posted by SanYuan

I am smiling and curious about peoples discussion of Bing, i know i respect him as much as my own parents and i know he wouldn't want people squabble over him.


I don't think we are discussing Zhao or squabbling over him but its interesting that you perceive it that way.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by theaustralian
Sorry panda i didn't get the email/PM do you think you could send it agian i typed the adress wrong its theaustralian1@hotmail.com thanks.

~Scott

Scott,
Think there's something wrong with your Inbox:
Maybe it's too full ?

This is the "bounce" message I got:

Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
Delivery to the following recipients failed.

theautralian1@hotmail.com


In any case, Scott, Master Bing is backfrom China , and the next class is this Sat 4pm in the " same place" which I hope is the same school when you last attended a year ago.

Maybe you can try and fix your Inbox and I'll send you specific contact details again. ( Maybe you can test it first by getting a frined to email you etc etc)
cheers,
panda

[pandajelly]

Kat,
Am glad you have spent sometime in China and experienced first hand contact with IMA there.
By esoteric , I refer to the type of IMA, not language or culture.
Even among locals in China , Master Bing’s stuff is considered highly esoteric and not advertised in newspapers or internet .
Admission ( in China) is by introduction , in accordance with the old ways, which has served it well for centuries.

When I asked Master Bing about increasing his public profile in Sydney, he explained there was no need to, nor was it a good idea.
When he was a little more public several years back ,it did attract the wrong attention , anything from triad members to curious onlookers.
“So how is a genuine student able to find you?“ I asked
He said, if you find me , then it was meant to happen and it is your good fortune.

His classes are not taught underground and in secret.
He has no “ selection criteria”.
The “ selection criteria” is really within yourself….you got to find him and appreciate what he is saying.
Many hear but some don’t listen.


I like to clarify another misperception.
I am not holding the only keys to the “ True Way”
Sanyuan, theaustralian1 and myself all found Master Bing in our own way, like many others.
Even you Kat, found him on your own … so how difficult was that ?
How can it be said that no one comes to Master Bing except thru me?
theaustralian1 was a former student, now interested in resuming classes, I’m merely passing contact details.

For those who are truly interested in learning Master Bing’s “style” , the suggestion I can give you is to “persist and preserve” in your search.
Focus more on asking / learning instead of criticising and one day the ‘ door” will come before you.
This was how it was for me.
Took me a long time and much effort before I stumbled onto Master Bing.
Corny as it may sound there is truth to the Chinese Adage, “ When the student is ready, the teacher will appear”

[nzric]

check the spelling

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Azrael


Pandajelly: I was just wondering if the reason behind your motives for withholding such relativly easy to find information was because the art in question is Xing Yi, or because the person teaching it is Bing Zhao?



Yeah, but at least the new recruits knew where to find the temple. :P

If it is so " relatively easy" then I'm not really a barrier eh? "

..but the withholding is out of respect for Master Bing's wishes.

And it is because of Master Bing and his art, not XingYi
:)

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by SanYuan
IOut of the respect his students have for him, most do no want to freely attract people who might be more interested in proving him wrong than becoming an honest student, i know i feel more confident in recommending some one i know than some one i don't.


Kind regards,
Barry


Thanks Barry,
You took the words right out of my mouth !
:D

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Kat


My understanding
Re : Kongjin empty/vacant,method
In conversations I have had it refers to issueing intense power using small movements(seemingly deriving from nowhere)from a vacant mind targeted at precise areas/angles.I have experienced this on a number of occasions...............


Kat,
without going into specifics, what we learn in Master Bing's class seems similar to what you describe.

The mechanics may differ, but the effect " sounds similar"
The ' energy" is issued with /without contact and with / without movement.

Since you have met him before, I'm curious to know if you took any lessons for any period of time, and why you did not continue. Maybe you know something I haven't realised yet ?

[Kat]

Originally posted by pandajelly
By esoteric , I refer to the type of IMA, not language or culture.
Even among locals in China , Master Bing’s stuff is considered highly esoteric and not advertised in newspapers or internet .
Admission ( in China) is by introduction , in accordance with the old ways, which has served it well for centuries.

Not many MA is advertised in newspapers or internet.Letters of introduction is how its still done in most schools.Again this tells me more about how you veiw myself and others.Terms such as "Esoteric" and "in accordance with the old ways, which has served it well for centuries" are subjective and best left to fiction writing. Language and Culture can make the most mundane things seem "Esoteric"re: subjective.

Originally posted by pandajelly

I like to clarify another misperception.
I am not holding the only keys to the �ETrue Way�E
Sanyuan, theaustralian1 and myself all found Master Bing in our own way, like many others.
Even you Kat, found him on your own �E so how difficult was that ?
How can it be said that no one comes to Master Bing except thru me?
theaustralian1 was a former student, now interested in resuming classes, I’m merely passing contact details.

OK another "misperception"
You seem to think the main point of my posts is to go to your school. I don't beleive I mentioned anything about you not posting his details nor do I have any objection with this.If anything I was stimulated to post because of your inability to address others equally and to offer and reaffirm a meeting time to talk and train together.No reference to BZ but rather to you Sanyuan and the Australian.

The reference to the True Way was a stab at an all too common attitude that one's teacher and lineage most hold the superior teaching that others can not envisage.This attitude comes through to me, clearly in your posts.
Perhaps its all an incorrect assumption.
Maybe there's alot of broken communication going on as I constanctly don't seem to be able to commicate well over this medium, but either way its petty clear you have no intention of meeting.

Originally posted by pandajelly
Focus more on asking / learning instead of criticising and one day the �Edoor�Ewill come before you.
�E
Doesn't this strike you as condescending?As I hope I have made clear the only thing I am criticizing is your attitude to others, an attitude I do not wish to learn.Regaurdless this is an example in my understanding of only seeing others as inferior.Thank You for your wisdom.:rolleyes:

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Syd
Hey Panda,


The fact is that we are open to most if not all styles and approaches as long as they work and they are practical. We often blend Taiji, Bagua, Chin Na and various other techniques and experiment with what we know searching for new options in training which allow us to improve in our skills......

. ..........Having said that it would be an opportunity for you to educate and demonstrate it's principles in an open minded forum among fellow internal stylists.


Best, Syd

Syd and Azrael,
Thank you for the kind invitation.
Unfortunately whilst I do XingYi, it is the Empty Force aspect that makes it "pointless" for me to join your well intentioned park training sessions.

We train in ways that do not require a partner and we don't really "spar" on a regular basis.
And at the risk of sounding arrogant" , the group will be learning more from me, than me them.

It is not our intention to "educate and demonstrate" this to the general public ( it's in a park for goodness sake !)

It reminds of the Bagua dude Dong Hai Chuan who learnt from 2 Daoist priests and made BaGuaZhang public in 1850's....even thought Bagua has probably been around since the Dao De Ching ( 500BC ?)
Goes to show that " secret transmission " of an esoteric art has it's place, even today.

Also I'm concerned I might accidentally "zap" one of you guys.
None of us are insured yeah ?

:cool:

[theaustralian]

"Scott,
Think there's something wrong with your Inbox:
Maybe it's too full ?

This is the "bounce" message I got:

Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
Delivery to the following recipients failed."

Im not sure whats wrong with it my freinds are geting that message too dosn't matter tho. Ill try to get there on sat hopefully see you then :) thanks for your help again panda.

~Scott

[pandajelly]

Scot,
Kewl
so you know the "place " ?

panda

[theaustralian]

i think it would be the same "place" hey i think were both online now can you go into chat now?

~Scott

[pandajelly]

Chat ? How do you do that ?
yes we are online now

[Kat]

Originally posted by pandajelly
Since you have met him before, I'm curious to know if you took any lessons for any period of time, and why you did not continue. Maybe you know something I haven't realised yet ?
Yes have meet him,Nice Chap.
There are more simularities within IMA styles and lineages then there are differences. Accepting and acknowledgeing this is important.

Originally posted by pandajelly
And at the risk of sounding arrogant" , the group will be learning more from me, than me them.
Your are right, its sounds arrogant.

Originally posted by pandajelly
It reminds of the Bagua dude Dong Hai Chuan who learnt from 2 Daoist priests and made BaGuaZhang public in 1850's....even thought Bagua has probably been around since the Dao De Ching ( 500BC ?)
Please don't speculate on the orgin of BGZ as though its fact.

[theaustralian]

at the top of this page there is a chat button next the calender forum...

[pandajelly]

OK...just a sec...I will explore

[pandajelly]

Scott,
Surprise !
Just spoke to Master Bing , there's a class tonight 7-9pm.
He will have exciting stories to tell...went back to meet old teachers and see archaeological sites maybe etc etc

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Kat



Please don't speculate on the orgin of BGZ as though its fact.

That's why it's called speculation ?
eh ?
What's clear is that many esoteric arts have been kept alive and protected via " secret transmission" That's not speculation.

Wing Chun is another, till Yip Man threw open the flood gates in 1950's...and even then only to people of Chinese origin.
Bruce Lee was the first to make it accessible to non Chinese.
Sorry, you and I will have to differ on what's " Esoteric" means.

And about being "arrogant", unless anyone in your park group is skilled in Empty Force techniques, I wonder how I can gain from that group, given I'm not keen to learn new non Empty Force techniques.

Not arrogance, just reality.
Didn't mean to be rude.

I do have to agree with you , this posting makes it hard , and things do get misinterpreted in the postings easily in the absence of vocal cues.

[Kat]

So be it, that is the reality you wish to make,although I do find it a bit of a narrow view.
Hope your training goes well, if we meet we meet.
Each to his own.

[pandajelly]

I agree it is a narrow view.
But to me , that’s being “ focussed” and not scattering my energy.
Same thing different perspective…how very daoist eh ?

[nzric]

Just don't expect everyone to have the same opinion as you, even though you seem to covet the "teacher/guru" mode of relating to others.

[Syd]

the group will be learning more from me, than me them.

I think I understand why you might say this, based on the focus of your training, but it is an unfortunate attitude nevertheless since without meeting others you can never know what there is to learn or be shared.

Best to you, Syd

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
Just don't expect everyone to have the same opinion as you, even though you seem to covet the "teacher/guru" mode of relating to others.


Never did have that expectation.
Am sorry you thought so.
I have nothing useful to teach your group, nor do I want to.

You all know more about Bagua, Tai chi , Yiquan, Xing Yi than I.
I know more about Empty Force than all of you combined, even though I'm only at apprentice level.

Since I'm interested in pursuing Empty Force only, and it has been suggested the park would be a good place to " demonstrate and educate" the lot of you , I'm justified in saying :
" the group will be learning more from me, than me them "

Now no need to be so sore if I don't want to join your happy park gathering where you all have your weekly meeting of minds. It's a good thing but ordinary chi-less IMAs are a thing of the past for me. If you saw the things Master Bing can do, you'll know what I mean.

Can't understand why this being discussed here...it has nothing to do with Master bing, the reason for this thread ?

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Syd
the group will be learning more from me, than me them.

I think I understand why you might say this, based on the focus of your training, but it is an unfortunate attitude nevertheless since without meeting others you can never know what there is to learn or be shared.

Best to you, Syd
Ah thank you for not thinking I am blindly arrogant.

You are right, I'm not joining your park group for the simple reason that I'm interested in pursuing Empty Force and your group is doing other things.


Don't think I'll be missing much, I have my share of IMAs previously, an am no longer content with IMAs of mere mortals.
After all, Daoists strive for Immortality....if you haven't realised that yet.
But once again Syd, Nzric, Azrael and others, thank you for the park invitation.

Maybe one day you might wake up to Empty Force and join me in my park.
:eek:

[nzric]

chi-less IMA?! you crack me up

[Syd]

Comments such as...

Don't think I'll be missing much and an am no longer content with IMAs of mere mortals and who can forget hits like Maybe one day you might wake up to Empty Force... prove blind ignorance as well as arrogance. I think the truth of the matter is that we won't be missing much in your absence.

Even in the spite of your open condecension and disdain for all of us all the boys tried valiantly to give you the benefit of the doubt and offered a friendly meeting in the spirit of humble comradery and common ground. You have replied with such a degree of superiority and arrogance as to warrant no further interest from me personally. I won't speak for the other lads but as far as I am concerned I couldn't possibly benefit from an association with you, given the attitude you hold so dear.

Sorry boys I had to say it... apologies.

[Matt_Bernius]

As a lurker my jaw dropped on that reply "Pandajelly" gave. Kinda verbally hit you guys on the way in and and the way out. It really made me realize what you're going to be "missing" if he doesn't come down to your park sessions. And truely, with his study of "empty force", he is in a class by himself.

oh... wait... check that, I'm pretty sure Yellow Bamboo is in there with him.

Personally I'm sorry that I'm half a world away because I'd kill for that type of invite and the chance to work with you guys.

- Matt

[Shade]

Originally posted by Matt_Bernius

Personally I'm sorry that I'm half a world away because I'd kill for that type of invite and the chance to work with you guys.

- Matt


I absolutely agree to that. Even just the chance to watch you guys, let alone join in, would be superb :)

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Syd
I think the truth of the matter is that we won't be missing much in your absence..........I couldn't possibly benefit from an association with you, given the attitude you hold so dear.



This is what I have been trying to tell you all along.
Am glad you finally realise it


Even in the spite of your open condecension and disdain for all of us all the boys tried valiantly to give you the benefit of the doubt and offered a friendly meeting in the spirit of humble comradery and common ground. You have replied with such a degree of superiority and arrogance as to warrant no further interest from me personally.

[/QUOTE]
I agree with the superiority bit, but arrogance is a matter of perspective.
Empty Force may not be the Ultimate IMA but IMHO it is superior to the park calistechnics you do.
I can safely comment this way as I've experienced both.
Have you ?

Sorry about the arrogance, can't help it if I've switched to a car and you're still happy with a bicycle.
If you think this is arrogance, think back to the number of times you guys (not you specifically Syd) have snickered, sneeered and blown off Empty Force ideas when it was mentioned to you. Now be honest, think . I can also safely say I have tested the waters having been in ALL IMA classes in the area at least once , and have heard this snickering first hand , yes even from Mainland Masters too.

The fact is I now know something you guys don't because you did not appreciate what was offered.
Casting pearls before swine eh?
Opportunity knocks on everyone's door at least once in their life time.
Were you listening then ?

[Syd]

superior to the park calistechnics you do.

Wow, the mind boggles...

[Shade]

pandajelly, from my own perspective (and please note that I am speaking as someone who has literally only just stared on my IMA journey) I have never experienced, or met anyone who has experienced either positive or negative aspects to this thing you call empty force.

I am aware, as no doubt you are too, of accounts from people who say that they went to see Master 'X' who is purportedly proficient in 'empty force' and that when Master 'X' tried this out on the person(s) nothing happened.

Without wishing to blow my own trumpet, i like to think of myself as being very open minded to virtually everything. Whilst I will question things, and sometimes come across as a bit of a pratt in the way I speak to people, it is really just a way of trying to uncover the truth (whatever that may be) and not meant as a personal attack etc.

I think it is fair to say that in order to fully grasp a concept such as empty force, one needs to witness it and even experience it first hand. Whilst it may be that some people here have sniggered and jeered about something that you truly believe in, from where I stand it appeared that this invitation to the park was not so that the masses could point the finger at you and laugh.

Even if your new direction is like switching to a car whilst the rest are on bikes, does it really get any of us anywhere by continuing to take pot shots at each other and our arts? Surely by a meeting of minds, so to speak, these misconceptions and barriers can be removed, and maybe some of these sniggering people will understand what it is that you prize so dearly.

I dont personaly believe that others get something and you get nothing out of meeting and discussing ideas with other fellow IMA's regardless of what level they are at etc. At a very basic human level, you get to be heard by your fellow IMA's and perhaps stop the sniggering that seems to bug you so much.

Whatever the outcome, I sincerely hope that you continue your own personal journey with fulfillment :)

[pandajelly]

Matt_Bernius & Shade,

You aint missing much.
Most of that group ( 3 -4 ?)are beginners, some have a bit more experience .
Most don’t speak Mandarin.
Some even think Chi is not Energy, but a combination of Hypnosis and efficient body mechanics.
But it’s IMA they practising !

But I do admire the fact they have the initiative to band together to help each other…a most noble effort.
Just hope it doesn’t turn out to be a the blind-leading-the-blind….as none of them have the skill level of a master in their respective IMA to guide and correct, so hopefully they won’t be reinforcing mistakes.
Hopefully they will consider getting insurance coverage for reasons of public liability….it is a “ lethal art” they are practising in a park eh ?

You can form you own group in the US, just post a message on the US forums.

[Syd]

*L* Oh man, time to get the popcorn.

[Shade]

Originally posted by pandajelly
Matt_Bernius & Shade,

You aint missing much.
Most of that group ( 3 -4 ?)are beginners, some have a bit more experience .
Most don’t speak Mandarin.
Some even think Chi is not Energy, but a combination of Hypnosis and efficient body mechanics.
But it’s IMA they practising !




To play Devils Advocate, you couldn't possibly say what I am not missing without having been yourself.

But on a serious note, these guys have most certainly given me massive encouragement if nothing else (although they have also given me a lot of excellent information) which to a newbie like me is invaluable.

From my perspective, they may still be begginers but so am I. More so than any of them. Frankly I don't think for a minute that they would try and correct my form per se, but even practising things like push hands to me is important (my wife and son dont always want to help me and I cant really do it with furniture :D )

Not speaking Mandarin doesn't bother me. I dont speak it and my teacher doesnt speak it to me in class. I don't see what this has to do with anything really?

In my mind I wonder if Chi is whatever you personally believe it to be. I know who you are referring to regarding hypnosis and body mechanics. Personally I would meet and train with this guy in an instant. If that is his feeling and understanding of Chi, it doesn't affect me in any way or the ability for us to share ideas and practice together. If anything it gives us something to discuss so that I can understand (hopefully) why he believes this.

Maybe one day I will come across the door of empty power. To me it would be a genuine shame if I felt I couldnt possibly discuss it with other IMA's because in some way i felt superior to them. I would imagine that I would be fairly advanced in the IMA to even FIND the door, and to me it seems that ego should be left outside.

[soggycat]

IMA is founded on Taoist philosophy.
Taoist teachings describe Chi as Energy in many forms.
Anyone choosing to modify the meaning of Chi is welcome to do so, but perhaps it’s better not to still call it Chi else it might confuse newbies.
How about calling it MyChi, even McChi or cheekyChi?

Anyone who doesn’t associate Chi with energy and practices IMA, is merely doing the External Aspects of IMA which is fine , but that’s called Wushu.
Like driving a Ferrari without Gas.
Looks good, but not going very far.
:D

[Adc]

Originally posted by pandajelly

Most of that group ( 3 -4 ?)are beginners, some have a bit more experience .
Most don’t speak Mandarin.

Wow guess I will have to log on more regularly to keep up with whats up.
Although none of the people you are talking about are too concerned with levels/grades/ or other things that people wish to label them as.I can tell you that none are beginners.
At least one comes to mind to be easyily able to instruct at least 2 styles of IMA if he wished.Not only on knowledge basis but application as well.

As for there Qi levels????:rolleyes: I won't begun to know how to test them :D
All 3 IMHO are extremely healthy and humble individuals well grounded in the ways of the world if that counts for anything.
All seem very decicated to there learning and practise regularly.

But whatever......,I still don't understand why you guys don't want to meet up and have a good chomp at a YC.
I am off overseas tomorrow, so everyone stay cool.:cool:
Nzric
Count me in on your coming BGZ stuff.
Stay Safe and Happy All

[SanYuan]

I have to agree with pandajelly that what i have seen and experienced of Master Zhao is unlike anything i have seen of the IMA world or of the likes of charlatans like Paul Dong and co.

Empty, like i said before if fundamental principal to Doaist practice. The understanding that this unusual ability only affects the weak minded or required preperation is the result of peoples experience with 'hippies'. This is far from my own experience.

This subject dates back several thousands of years and you can find many chinese stories that describe people with extra-ordinary abilities. I thaught they were myths, I did not believe in such things and was perhaps more skeptical than all of you here before I met Master Zhao.

I have seen the appication of this invisible 'power' upon weak people and strong people. I have felt it and i have seen people struggle with it with all of their mental and phisical might. I too have tried struggling my best only to discover that the effect of this 'empty power' grow rapidly stronger the more you try to hold and resist it. It is fast and instentainious and it can be used in numerious ways. At lower levels, Masters have a kind of 'sticky' power and can destaibalise their opponent at the slightest touch making it extremely easy to control their opponent no matter how strong.

It would perhaps do justice to call it empty ability rather than empty power because it refers to the condition of ones own body - a contition mind you, that all IMA are trying to reach.

If i would mention such things to even my friends they would think im crazy so i have no hopes in thinking any of you consider me sane :) . I wrote this because it is my own honest experience and it related to the subject at hand.

After saying this however, i would still recommend people remain skeptical rather than let 'false profits' lead you down the garden path. I have also experienced this and it does people alot of damage when their teachers lie and cheat them.

Personally, empty power is not that important to me as a student of Master Zhao, what he teaches about Dao has never been taught in the west or if it has, i can not find any reference to it. The clarity and depth of his understanding is remarkable and it has changed my life and how i cope with the world around me. If the application of Dao in martial arts in 'empty power', imagine what the simple applications in life might be.

[pandajelly]

SHADE:To play Devils Advocate, you couldn't possibly say what I am not missing without having been yourself.
PANDAJELLY:You are right, but that¡¦s just it.
I have been to similar informal gatherings before and realised that practicing in the absence of a proper teacher
might reinforce mistakes and be counterproductive.

SHADE:These guys have most certainly given me massive encouragement if nothing else (although they have also given me a lot of excellent information) which to a newbie like me is invaluable.
PANDAJELLY:Good . But it is good to be discerning with information.
No all information may be correct even if it was offered in sincerity.
It took me a while to realise this.
I was taught of misguided things in my Taekwondo and ¡§Chi-less¡¨ IMA days.
A lot of UNLEARNING ensued.


SHADE:From my perspective, they may still be begginers but so am I. ¡K¡K¡K.
(my wife and son dont always want to help me and I cant really do it with furniture)
PANDAJELLY:I know sometime it is hard to find willing partners, but keep looking in forums .Ask around.
The door will come if you persists and often when you least expect it.


SHADE:Not speaking Mandarin doesn't bother me. ¡K¡K.. I don't see what this has to do with anything really?
PANDAJELLY:Non-mandarin speaking teachers will learn the finer/ subtler points thru translation.
Things get lost in a translation.
This even refers to the Chinese teachers who don¡¦t speak Chinese.
Learning will be arrested at some level.


SHADE:In my mind I wonder if Chi is whatever you personally believe it to be.
PANDAJELLY:You have a right to re-define Chi¡K.but then it is not the Chi that old IMA Masters refer toand been
cultivating for 1000¡¦s of years. Not good to mix and match , toyota parts in a mercedes car is gonna cause problems.

SHADE:I know who you are referring to regarding hypnosis and body mechanics.
Personally I would meet and train with this guy in an instant.
PANDAJELLY:Nothing against him, think he¡¦s a sincere guy who tends to over-analyse Chi and please do train with him.
But personally I like my teacher to be have at least 20 years teaching experience, have established lineage,
speak mandarin and prove to me the things they claim they can do.
Master Bing meets this criteria.
His lineage traces back to Lu Dong Bin¡K¡Kyou can find out who this man is yourself ƒº


SHADE:Maybe one day I will come across the door of empty power.
PANDAJELLY:And I sincerely hope you do.
But it may not initially appear in the form you expect.
Just keep your mouth shut, ears open, be a positive not a negative skeptic.
Empty Power folks tend to shy away from publicity, are semi hemits and you really have to go looking for them.
It¡¦s not something that can be acquired over night. It takes years.
But the rewards are very satisfying.
You will then understand why ¡§More is Less¡¨ in every way.

And in the ultimate, when you have given up everything, you have everything.
This is why we empty the mind in meditation, only ¡§Emptiness¡¦ can draw Cosmic Chi.
Hence ¡§Empty Power¡¨
If your mind is full, nothing much will flow in yeah ?
When you have the Dao, all things are possible¡K.Empty Power martial Arts is only a means to an end ¡Kthe Dao.
Also, a study of non-religious Daoism and its principles will be very useful to understanding Empty Power and where it comes from.

SHADE:To me it would be a genuine shame if I felt I couldnt possibly discuss it with other IMA's because in some way i felt superior to them.
PANDAJELLY:I have no problem discussing Empty Power with newbies.
But in my experience , and if you check the thread on Empty Power by Soggycat, you will see many who claim to have am ¡§ Non-Judgemental Open minds ¡§ are EXACTLY the opposite in action. He was scrutinised, ridiculed, made to explain¡K.it is not the nature of Dao for that to happen .
Daoist are not interested in proving to people who have chosen not to believe in the first place.
It has no benefit to them and cost too much energy¡K.a vital consideration for a Daoist.


SHADE: I would imagine that I would be fairly advanced in the IMA to even FIND the door,
Not at all.
PANDAJELLY:The Dao stresses returning to pre-Birth childlike innocence.
In fact , learning too much often puts you in a knowledge prison and blinds you to new perspectives.
That¡¦s why some people will continue to see the glass as Half Empty.
Not Half Full.

A great example of how ¡§ More is Less¡¨

Empty Power suitable for learning for even a child.
But External Martial Artist who have relinquish their strenuous ways will appreciate it even
more when they realise there¡¦s always been an easier way to do things.
The Dao ALWAYS chooses the path of least resistance.

:)

[pandajelly]

Well put, SanYuan !

[theaustralian]

i cant come on sat but ill come on tuesday instead cya then.

ps when i get more time ill read through this thread

~Scott

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
chi-less IMA?! you crack me up

That Chi is not Energy but Hypnosis and Body Mechanics, is quite funny too !
:D

[theaustralian]

i think SanYaun really hit the nail on the head with that one. I'd have to say..

"Personally, empty power is not that important to me as a student of Master Zhao, what he teaches about Dao has never been taught in the west or if it has, i can not find any reference to it."

Too true i cant agree more

~Scott

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by SanYuan


If i would mention such things to even my friends they would think im crazy so i have no hopes in thinking any of you consider me sane :)



I know exactly what you mean....many people already think that about me.
:p

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by theaustralian
i cant come on sat but ill come on tuesday instead cya then.

ps when i get more time ill read through this thread

~Scott

Kewl,
I was there at yesterday's class, ooooh Master Bing had a very nice story to tell about meeting someone like himself during his trip etc etc...more in class.

See you Tuesday !

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Shade
Surely by a meeting of minds, so to speak, these misconceptions and barriers can be removed, and maybe some of these sniggering people will understand what it is that you prize so dearly.

........and perhaps stop the sniggering that seems to bug you so much.



How would such a meeting-of-minds/ education benefit me ?
It might benefit them if they do see the light.
Please understand I neither need or seek approval from skeptics or potential new converts.

No the snickering doesnt bother me, but it discourages me from sharing the treasure.
Ultimately their loss, not mine.

[Shade]

pandajelly,

Thank you for the brief discussion :)

It has been very informative, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain things from your perspective. This is exactly why I commented on (or rather what I meant) when I implied it is surely better for everyone to meet and discuss things more openly, as opposed to making wise cracks about each other's respective arts. By talking things over calmly like this it draws out good things :)

SanYuan's latest post is an excellent example of this. There could have been an attack, but instead there was wisdom.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Matt_Bernius
........ And truely, with his study of "empty force", he is in a class by himself.

oh... wait... check that, I'm pretty sure Yellow Bamboo is in there with him.

- Matt

Not correct, I'm not in a class by myself. Actually there's some 20+ ex-EMA or ex-Wushu-IMA or ex-chi-less IMA students, male and female in our class.


A few more IMA people in Sydney than suspected eh?
They all stay away from Tai-Chi-in-the-park because being enlightened why shd they bother to look back?

Matt, I'm so sorry you had to run into "Yellow Bamboo" ( and a few variants in Indonesia) ... that is not what we do, and is the "charlatan" that SanYuan speaks of.

I will say no more than the fact SanYuan skills has my highest respect. The man speaks the truth and wisely !

[soggycat]

Originally posted by Adc
Wo

As for their Qi levels????:rolleyes: I won't begun to know how to test them :D


.....But whatever......,I still don't understand why you guys don't want to meet up and have a good chomp at a YC.



How to test the Park Bagua Boys for Qi:
1.
Ask them to hold a light bulb , ensuring that each hand makes contact with each terminal. If the bulb lights. They have Chi.

If it lights brightly, they have lots of Chi.

If it lights up without contact, the have Empty Power...projected Chi


2.
As for the gentleman who believes Chi isn't energy, just Hypnosis and Body Mechanics, ask him to hold the bulb, instruct all observers to close eyes and visualise the bulb glow and sway.
If visualisation successful, bulb holder has Chi.



3.
" Chomp at YC "
Does that mean a show-down at a YOUTH CLUB or food at YumCha ?
Adc , you are such a friendly guy !
But think not safe for PandaBear to be at Yum Cha because a flying EggRoll can be quite lethal.


:D

[Shade]

His lineage traces back to Lu Dong Bin¡K¡Kyou can find out who this man is yourself ƒº

pandajelly, found some very interesting stuff about this man on the net.

Thanks for the info :)

[nzric]

So how many empty force practitioners does it take to change a lightbulb?

Did a quick Google and found Bing's (secret?) website - http://www.ccimaa.com.au/index.html. Interesting to note that he suggests woman use psychic force-fields to stop rapists.

Scary thing is, I have a tattoo on my chest which is almost exactly the same as Bing's logo (the old-fashioned yin/yang). Maybe the Tao is saying I'm destined to be an empty force guru - hmmmm

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric


Scary thing is, I have a tattoo on my chest which is almost exactly the same as Bing's logo (the old-fashioned yin/yang). Maybe the Tao is saying I'm destined to be an empty force guru - hmmmm

nzric,
you are scaring me. Your tatoo seems to be an omen.
Master Bing once said his choice of the old YinYang symbol ( spiral) best reflects the Empty Force / Daoist philosophy he embraces.
Could this be your “ Road to Damascus “ conversion….heh heh ….welcome then.
I thought his website has be de-commissioned.
Can you access it ?
http://www.ccimaa.com.au/index.html
It doesn’t work for me….maybe you are getting a cached (old) copy

Soggycat,
Heh heh that was a funny one Soggycat.
So you do have a sense of humour.
You must be one of Master Bing’s student too. Have we met in class or are you one the students he sees privately ?

So how many empty force practitioners does it take to change a lightbulb?
#None, they just zap the bulb with an energy bolt, the broken filament melts and fuses back, restoring it to proper function,

So how many Daoist does it take to change a lightbulb?
#None, there are no light bulbs in a hermit’s cave

How many Chi-less IMAs does it take to change a light bulb ?
#None, there’s no point, there’s no energy to light it anyways.


So how many EMAs does it take to change a lightbulb?
At least 3.
2 to get into Horse stance, 1 to climb on their shoulders, smash the old bulb with his bare hands and shove the new one in with a loud “ Kiiii..ai “ !


:D

[nzric]

PJ - I only recently got the tattoo, for my birthday in November. I chose it because it expressed the wuji as well as taiji, and it almost looks like a maori design (fishhook) (mine rotates the other way with yin rising, but it's clockwise when I see it in the mirror). It's on my chest over my heart.

I was going to get a maori design but most maori symbols are tapu (forbidden/sacred). Funny thing is I was actually considering getting the bagua trigrams around the outside but I decided I'd study IMA for a few years more so I would be able to justify putting them on.

That link works for me - try doing a search on "Central Chinese Internal Martial Arts Academy" and click on the link from another MA site links page.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Shade
pandajelly, found some very interesting stuff about this man on the net.

Thanks for the info :)

No worries mate.
I think you have the mindset that will lead you to the "door"
You are on the right track.
Your next task might be to separate the authentic from the charlatan, the distraction from the focus.

You might also like to investigate Yang Lu Chuan, founder of Yang TaiChi....apparently he too had some Empty Power.....but I can't be sure.

Good things dont come easy and are usually found after some searching. This was my experience and I'm sharing that with you.
Now that you know who Lu Dong Bin is, may I suggest you go beyond his mythological reputation and investigate how he attained the Dao and his martial skill.



That my teacher is in his lineage leaves me in awe.
In your quest you will no doubt encounter 2 schools of thought. One says a teacher belonging to established lineage is important. The other says not.
Note that I used the term ESTABLISHED, not FAMOUS.
In China they have a saying about Martial Arts teachers, that if a teacher is famous and easily found , his skill is not as good as one who is obscure and " hidden". Daoist are very low key by nature and shun publicity if they can help it.

I believe established lineage is significant because Good things tend to last a long time , whereas , inferior things will die out naturally. Survival of the fittest. (So very Daoist too, not suprising because Daoism is about following Nature. )

The movie " Crouching Tiger , Hidden Dragon" exemplfies this.
The really skillful ones are quietly crouching , their powers are hidden but when stirred will unleash it with ferocity of a tiger and spirit of a dragon.

BTW, Crouching Tiger is a movie based on IMA and Wudang arts, in fact you might have noticed Wudang was mentioned several times ?
Examine the moves, and you will see many TaiChi and Bagua techniques. Unfortunately 90% of HongKong Kung Fu flicks are Shaolin c*ra*p
Memorable lines from the movie:

" You must learn to hold the sword in stillness"
" True skill comes with no effort "
....and to borrow SoggyCat's fave term " Wu WEi " - effortlessness

JadeFox: "I only followed the drawings, but I didn't understand the written code ....and so my skill could not reach your level "

This last statement is so very relevant for IMA teachers who teach the form aspect of IMA, but forget about the Daoist philosophy, language , culture from which it was born

Hope this helps.

[Shade]

pandajelly, thanks once again for more info :)

I'd invite you to my park, but im something like 12,500 miles away :D

[nzric]

PJ doesn't do parks :)

[Kat]

Originally posted by pandajelly
.You might also like to investigate Yang Lu Chuan, founder of Yang TaiChi....apparently he too had some Empty Power.....but I can't be sure.

You are right how can you be sure.Why speculate about past teachers when your knowledge is purely derived from what your teacher tells you(unless you are doing active reseach in chinese language history and culture)Spread your opinions as much as you want but do not present them as fact

Originally posted by pandajelly
.
The movie " Crouching Tiger , Hidden Dragon" exemplfies this.
The really skillful ones are quietly crouching , their powers are hidden but when stirred will unleash it with ferocity of a tiger and spirit of a dragon.

BTW, Crouching Tiger is a movie based on IMA and Wudang arts, in fact you might have noticed Wudang was mentioned several times ?
Examine the moves, and you will see many TaiChi and Bagua techniques.

Thats a little worrying to me, it is just scary if people rely on movies as accurate descriptions of IMA or phillosphy.CTHD comes from a popular serial fictional novel.While I am sure you feel you can relate to many elements and thoughts it is far from a treatise to be analysed.

[pandajelly]

Kat,
I think your response have been deliberately inflammatory and argumentative.
In response to my point about Yang Lu Chuan , I did say I wasn't sure, but you accuse me of proposing it as fact.

Prior to that, about the origins of Bagua, I did indicate the uncertainty of the date of origin, yet you had to put your 2 cents worth in and accuse me of speculating on something I already said I was already uncertain of .

Since I already made the disclaimer that I wasn't sure of these points, I doubt I am misleading any newbies if that was your concern.


I have no problem arguing on logic , but on silly sematics like this, you are just making yourself look petty.
Your many post have been reasonable , wise and well tempered. This is not one of them.

Also, in the spirit of openess which you guys have urged me to, how about answering my question I posted earlier. You met Master Bing, you found him to be a nice chap. So I'm curious why you didn't stay on.

Pray tell us why....did you think his style was not suitable for you, did you think he was a charlatan , or perhaps did you think his skill level was below that of your?

Inquring minds like to know.

:)

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
PJ doesn't do parks :)

My Master says it is not good to do Qigong on the (wet) grass of a park. Too much Yin energy.
But Calistechnics and frisbee are fine .

:Angel:

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Kat


Thats a little worrying to me, it is just scary if people rely on movies as accurate descriptions of IMA or phillosphy.CTHD comes from a popular serial fictional novel.While I am sure you feel you can relate to many elements and thoughts it is far from a treatise to be analysed.

I think I know a little bit more about Crouching Tiger than your Headliner info.

No where did I say CTHD was an accurate desciption of IMA.
You said that, I did not.
I allude to the fact that the movie had IMA / Wudang arts as opposed to Shaolin.

But the point is well made that merely following the movements ( as from a book or video) will only take a IMA student to a certain level. To go higher, one need to understan the reasons for the moves....and this is facilitate by know the language, Daoist philosophy and socio economic culture......I thought those were some of the the words you once used yourself.

Please stop putting words into my mouth.
It is so not you , wise Kat.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Shade
pandajelly, thanks once again for more info :)

I'd invite you to my park, but im something like 12,500 miles away :D

Thank you . You never know, stranger things have happened.
I know for a fact there's an Empty Force teacher in Moscow, originally from PRC.

See what I have to put up with ?
Some of these "Empty Force " skeptics can find no other way to deal with me than to nit pick on things most adults can figure out for themselves.


Hence my Hostile / Defensive posture....until I meet a nice guy like you.
:D

[pandajelly]

Kat,
You seem to think ALL my ideas of Empty Force comes from my one and only teacher. Here's something to change that misperception. An article about Yang Lu Chuan ie. Yang Tai Chi founder and his Empty Force.
Again, I'm only relaying info, not saying this is accurate.


"
Many past martial artists unknowingly developed empty force and became famous for their superior fighting prowess. For instance, Yang Pan-hou, who died in 1881, was the son of tai chi chuan's founder, Yang Lu-chan. He once used empty force to counterattack an opponent who tried to attack him from the rear. Yang simply arched his back and set his opponent flying backward without even touching him. "

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/kki/1986/may86/emptyforce/emptyforce.html

[Syd]

*L* ;)

[pandajelly]

Reduced to icons and single letter communication.
Sounds like a Qi disorder.
:-)

[Syd]

It's got to the point where it's better I hold my tongue now. :)

[nzric]

Prior to that, about the origins of Bagua, I did indicate the uncertainty of the date of origin, yet you had to put your 2 cents worth in and accuse me of speculating on something I already said I was already uncertain of .

PJ - I think Kat was inferring that to write that kind of thing without doing your research does plenty to confuse newcomers.

It's like saying "apparently Yang Lu Chan invented the electric lightbulb and was campaign manager for the elections of a prominant politician when he was 37.... but I can't be sure"

That kind of thing spreads rumours without a trace of evidence.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Syd
It's got to the point where it's better I hold my tongue now. :)
He speaks !

But if you hold your tongue that way, how are you going to complete the path and join the Du and Ren meridians.....
No good for health !
:D

[Azrael]

pandajelly: Could I please ask you a few questions for the sake of personal reference? A few things have stumped me during the course of this debate (for lack of a better word), and I feel by answering these questions, you will be able to fill in a few missing pieces for both myself, and others, as I am sure I am not the only one that is somewhat perplexed.

My questions are as follows:

1. What was your martial arts background prior to meeting Bing Zhao? i.e What else have you formally studied?

2. Do you speak Mandarin? i.e Are you Chinese? Did you study it? Do you know just enough to converse with your Shifu?

3. How did you meet Bing Zhao? i.e Was it though a student of his? Advertisment? Pure Luck? etc

4. How long have you been training under Bing Zhao?

5. What is your deifinition of empty force?

6. Are you yourself capable of applying empty force, as per the above definition?

Sorry about all the questions, I actually did not mean to ask so many, but I am so overly curious. Hope you don't find any of these intrusive. I realise that it might take you sometime to answer them all, as some may require you to go into some detail, but if you could, it would be most appreciated. No rush though, whenever you get a chance to break away from all your training, which must keep you busy. God knows, I'm pretty buggered myself having done circle walking for 5hrs today, and ever previous day this week. Think I might go get a massage.

All the best,
Az

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
PJ - I think Kat was inferring that to write that kind of thing without doing your research does plenty to confuse newcomers.

It's like saying "apparently Yang Lu Chan invented the electric lightbulb ........ but I can't be sure"

That kind of thing spreads rumours without a trace of evidence.

Point taken, and much appreciate the well tempered reponse but I was alluding to the fact that the uncertainty lies within known records, not my knowledge of the known records.

* * * * * * * * * * *** * * * * ** *** ************
Originally posted by pandajelly
It reminds of the Bagua dude Dong Hai Chuan who learnt from 2 Daoist priests and made BaGuaZhang public in 1850's....even thought Bagua has probably been around since the Dao De Ching ( 500BC ?)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** *** * **********
There are numerous Chinese books that allude to the view that Bagua is as old as Taoism, and hence the Dao De Ching. Bagua was only made pubic by Dong Hai Chuan in 1851.

Seriously, I don't see how this statement however imprecise, can cause any misunderstanding amongst newbies.

And wrt Yang Lu Chuan and Empty Force, there are several references ( I have provided one url) on the web and in western published books. Again I relay the info, I'm not endorsing it.
Try not to shoot the messenger eh?

Does seem like half of the time we are fighting over this sort of thing : he said, she said, he didn't say, but you said......

Are you sure this prejudice is motivated by the fact you guys are bent on disagreeing with me on everything and anything just because we don't see eye to eye on Empty Force ?

:)

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Azrael

Az

Azael said:

My questions are as follows:

1. What was your martial arts background prior to meeting Bing ?
Shaolin, Silat , Kick Boxing and Japanese EMAs. Broke boards, some body building ( now prohibited by teacher)

2. Do u speak Mandarin? Do u know just enough to converse
with your Shifu?
No Mandarin . Trying to learn. But Shifu speaks English surprisingly well.


3. How did you meet Bing Zhao? i.e Was it though a student of
his? Advertisment? Pure Luck? Etc
Thru Serendipity that was facilitated by any inquiring , open and non-judgemental mind, and following leads ( many false ones )
A student , sensing “ I was ready” opened the door.


4. How long have you been training under Bing Zhao?
1 year, fairly junior compared to some who’ve been in class 6 years.


5. What is your deifinition of empty force?
Tricky one.
When you can generate and transfer “energy” with or without movement and transfer it to another lifeform ( does not work on furniture ) with or without contact.
The unfortunate recipient may be moved, paralysed, felled , thrown or psychologically terrorised….sometimes they scream.

This is my personal definition, subject to my limited learning attainment and what I have seen.
Ie. Don’t quote me…this is just to give you an idea.

I like to think of Empty Force as a TV remote control.
I can shut it down , change channels from afar or very near. I just need to point it the right way. But the Remote’s batteries must be sufficiently strong to transmit the signal.

6. Are you yourself capable of applying empty force, as per the
above definition?
Off course not. It takes years . Just as IMA takes longer than EMAs to master to a level of competence, Empty Force training is a LONG process. And patience is a self imposed criteria.
But non EF friends , who also do Qigong say they can feel that my Qi has risen ( I hope)

It 's best studied alonside non-religious Daoism…it helps you understand why things work the way it does in EF.

7. Sorry about all the questions, I actually did not mean to ask so
many, but I am so overly curious. Hope you don't find any of
these intrusive.

No not at all.
I like such truly positive and genuine questions intended to seek understanding, not to mock.
After all, these are the ones I myself asked a year ago.
They are so much better than the snide remarks, implied mocking and sneering I face 95% of the time.

I really don’t like to have to prove to anyone the authencity of what I say, I’m just sharing, it’s up to you to ACCEPT or REJECT or INVESTIGATE.

It’s too much effort and violates a cardinal Daoist principle, minimises unnecessary effort to minimise energy loss.
Hence it’s made me VERY DEFENSIVE, HOSTILE or VICIOUS when I sense I’m about to get another dose of “testing” from the many ARMCHAIR CRITICS.

No worres, mate I think you are have the same mindset as I did that finally lead me from Empty Force on the Cinema screen to Empty Force before my very eyes.
I wish you well on your quest, and to Immortality.
Perhaps we might meet.
:Angel:

[SanYuan]

I would like to add a little more on the subject of empty power, as a second point of view - from another student. I have know Master Zhao for 8 years. 'Empty power' and 'Dao' are the same thing. Empty power is not the result of martial arts, it is the result of Daoist cultivation and their application of martial arts. It does not relate to any religious beliefs or practices. Empty power is a term used for people without Dao to vagly understand what is happening, in fact there is no force and there is no power that does not already exist. So empty power is the result of a philosophy and practice that is truly in contrast with the secular world, instead of relying on the powers of the world that come from struggling, we now address the subject of 'powers' or things that exist in a world without struggle.

Daoism in the west is scholastic and not achieved. This can generate quite a bit of condemnation upon current westerners who 'practice' Dao in their daily life. The simple 'fact' is Daoism in China has only survived through lineages lead back to Lu Dong Bin. Each successor has learnt specifically and in detail from their teacher, never a successful daoist taught herself by reading a translated copy of the DaoDeChing :).

Of course the centuries that roll by leave the remains of writing from many other successful Daoists, but reading and thinking you understand these writings are far from achieving Zheng Dao ( Genuine Dao ).

Coming back to Empty Power, I can tell people empty power is the result of a specific phisical and mental condition, cultivated through phisical and mental observations of Daoism. Efforless training and a simple, moral life lead you mind and body to open up and unite harmoniously, so that your potental is not limited by your own, wasted phiscal and mental struggles.

Importantly, what i have said is not any such guide for peoples practice, it is only my snapshot of comments on empty power from a students perspective that may re-adjust some confused views. And for others who just like to argue.... it is good meat to chew on :).

[pandajelly]

As always, I bow to your wisdom.

Please feel free to correct or expand on anything I have stated.

:)
And thank you...you know why.

[nzric]

Ok, I'll repeat what I've said countless times:

There are plenty of links on the web, to societies like those run by James Randi and the Sceptics Society. There has been an offer out for at least 20 years that anyone can demonstrate psychic/paranormal acts under controlled conditions will receive $1,000,000. This is a legally binding agreement, not a gimmick. The society is founded on the fact that they agree to honour the offer.

Look at what effect two bit psychic John Edward has done to earn millions with just a bit of cold reading and a smart marketing campaign - just wait till you show them the real thing. It won't take much, we're not talking about making the Statue of Liberty disappear... just get Sifu Bing or any of his students sit under controlled conditions and do the lightbulb trick. He doesn't even need to demonstrate 'projected chi' by not touching the bulb - as you said before, if it lights up when he's holding it, it demonstrates that the person "has chi". Sifu Bing can do that in a controlled environment, surely. A million dollars, just like that.

So why not go and do it, or get Sifu Bing to do it? If he's a good Daoist and doesn't believe in monetary gain, he could always donate it to a charity of his choice. Maybe some orphans or disaster victims... If he is stuck for some worthy causes I can name at least ten charities in my next post that could literally save thousands of lives with a million dollar donation.

Also, by proving the existence of a new energy, you can save many thousands of lives - I'm sure hospitals, mental institutions and disabled societies would be charging the door down to introduce it into their rehabilitation programs (you say "but it takes dedication and practice"... I'm sure the hundreds of children dying of leukaemia and the burns victims/cancer patients waiting in the hospitals will have plenty of both).

Thirdly, you will probably change the face of religious thought and practice throughout the world and lead to an awakening of worldwide consciousness now you can show the power of human thought (and only human thought) to influence the world. Hey, with a single swoop you will bring the blinkered view of scientific rationalism crashing to the ground and revive the ancient wonder in a universal essence.

Off you go ...

[buyao]

panda, check your private messages

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by buyao
panda, check your private messages

Hello Buyao,
Just checked inbox.
Your name sounds familiar.
Are you the tall fair handsome one ?
Studying TCM, N.P. now M.?

:)


I'm the one who chatted with you after class at the bustop many moons ago.
If u figure it out good, else I'll email you the info.

BTW not sure how to send email from here...will try now.

[buyao]

don't know about the fair handsome bit!??

but I did speak to you at the bus stop.

thanks, just wondering:)

[nzric]

Syd: remember what we talked about the other Sunday - I think you're right. 47 posts and 43 have been in the same thread.

[SanYuan]

Oh no nzric, empty does not mean stupid! Dao does not mean easy. You think i need proof, it's you who wants proof, i'm quite satisfied with what i know. For you i think the most comfortable thing i could say is there is no such thing as Dao, there is no such thing as 'empty'. Sweet dreams :)

pandajelly, i wish you very good luck with your practice, Bing teaches very well, i should leave any corrections up to him :)

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by buyao
don't know about the fair handsome bit!??

but I did speak to you at the bus stop.

thanks, just wondering:)

Heh he, did you get my email ?
Hey, in this forum please be careful what you say about what we learn in class. Here I feel like I'm in the 15th Century telling people "But the world's NOT FLAT " and all these " knowing" wiseman want to burn me at the stake !

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
[B]

Ok, I'll repeat what I've said countless times:
........get Sifu Bing or any of his students sit under controlled conditions and do the lightbulb trick. ........ A million dollars, just like that.

So why not go and do it, or get Sifu Bing to do it? If he's a good Daoist and doesn't believe in monetary gain, he could always donate it to a charity of his choice. .B]

If I wasn't convinced u r a nice but misguided guy I wd respond with equal acrimony . But I will not.

Your continued failure to even break the surface of understanding lies in your inablilty to think outside the square. You are imposing Western values, western standards , western view points on an Eastern way. It's called "blinded by ethnocentricity"
Your mentality is shaped by Western philosophy, which in many ways is different to Eastern Philosophy ( Daoism)
Hence your inability to comprehend.

You assume everything needs to be proven clinically before it can be accept it as fact. You assume everything is motivated by money. Master Bing has nothing , read NOTHING to prove to people like you. He doesn't need your approval. He gets NO BENEFIT from proving himself right to you. Give the prize money to orphans ? Is that a guilt trip you're pulling ? Your limited frog-in-the-well mentality leads you to think money is the only way to help orphans. I dont recall me, Master Bing or his senior student applying for sainthood or altruist of the year award. We are here to lead quiet happy Daoist long long long lives, minding our own business, helping those that COME TO US SEEKING help, but not going out of our way to help ignorant people. Remember , Daoism is NOT A RELIGION. We dont earn our salvation thru good deeds.
Please tell me how Master Bing will benfit from your dare ?

He has no wish to conquer the world or lead a new Renaissance like movement.

Like I said " When the student is ready, his teacher will appear"

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
Syd: remember what we talked about the other Sunday - I think you're right. 47 posts and 43 have been in the same thread.

OK it's now 49 posts, with 45 in the same thread.

True to self, I'm focussed but you seem a little anal ( retentive) to even fuss over such counting.




Those who SEEK the trees will not SEE the forest.
Those who SEEK the sand will not SEE the beach.

:love:

[pandajelly]

Trying to understand, seeking proof is EFFORT
Instead relax, let go, LET it happen is EFFORTLESS
A good example of "Trying to hard"
Less is More

[soggycat]

Q:How many Park TaiChi boys do you need to change a light bulb?

Answer:
At least 10.
1 to hold the bulb
9 to rotate the room

ie. doing it the hard way and STRUGGLE


nzric, by the way, I think the making the light bulb glow with Chi was not meant to be serious, as seems to be the case in your challenge to Beng.
\Or is it ?

[nzric]

Ok, I'll put it simply because you don't seem to understand me.

Sifu Bing goes to a building in the morning. He signs a couple of forms to say he won't use trickery, then he is given a brand new lightbulb. He sits in a chair in front of a camcorder and some people with clipboards and uses his chi power to make it light up (with or without touching it).

Applause.

The nice folks at www.randi.org agree that it's all legit, and they have witnessed an event that can't be explained using western scientific reasoning. Sifu Bing goes into another room where he signs a couple of papers, gives his bank details and a transfer of $1,000,000 is approved.

Sifu Bing walks out of the building and goes to the nearest bank. He approves a transfer of the $1,000,000 into the account of Oxfam, Red Cross, Medecins Sans Frontiers, UNICEF, USAID, Care, Save the Children, World Vision, Handicap International or Amnesty International.

His job is done. It takes less than one morning of altruism in his Daoist life.

I repeat - I'm NOT saying he will benefit, I know he wouldn't care to. I'm saying he would save thousands of innocent people a painful death - those are the ones who would benefit.

The receiving NGO takes the money and spends it on $1,000,000 worth of generic pharmaceuticals from India ... maybe malaria treatment, meningitis vaccinations, typhoid/pneumonia research, tetanus shots... This is sent to third world countries and directly contributes to saving the lives and drastically improving the health of thousands of individuals.

No, money is not the only way to help orphans, but money is the best way to give medicine to a child who would otherwise die next month from whooping cough.

Is it a guilt trip - if Master Bing is what he says he is, you're d*** right it is, and it should be.

Yes, I'm accepting western science can be blind. That is the purpose of the $1,000,000 offer (and the rationality that to expand human knowledge with the proof of psychic events is worth much more to humankind than $1,000,000).

I don't need to prove everything has to be clinically proven to be accepted as fact - I'm saying it has to be clinically proven to earn $1,000,000 (and save the orphans). You have given an easy example of how this could be achieved (the lightbulb thing), and I have shown how in a couple of hours, Master Bing could stop thousands of babies dying in their own filth.

I think that is fairly straightforward.

[nzric]

Ok - if your lightbulb thing wasn't to be taken seriously, replace "demonstrate empty force". IMHO - empty force is as real as making a lightbulb light up with your mind... if you believe in the former, it's not a small step to assume you would literally believe the latter.

How about making a feather/wooden block move without touching it.

Does it have to be living? How about causing a measurable effect on someone's body from a distance. How about a volunteer in the next room/behind glass.

How about measuring the forces acting on someone then getting Sifu Bing to blast him with empty force. Make it one of you guys because us non-IMA guys can't handle the strain. According to physics, the energy comes from somewhere so if you can show the energy didn't come from the volunteer's muscular action, it's clear evidence of empty force. A set of scales and some physiologists looking at a slow-motion replay should be enough evidence.

[Azrael]

pandajelly: How old are you if you do not mind me asking? I'm only quite young myself.

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
It takes less than one morning of altruism in his Daoist life.
..............I'm saying he would save thousands of innocent people a painful death - those are the ones who would benefit.


In the above ,I've just highlighted the crux , the barrier to your mindblock.

Altruism is not a primary Daoist virtue.
But measured kindness is.

Secondly, how does he gain from saving all those lives ?
In the Cost Vs Benefit relationship analysis,
would it cost him too much energy, disturb his stillness, stress him with too much strenous effort to save all those lives ?
All practicising Daoists aim to conserve thier energy , in order to ensure longevity.
Why should he shorten his life to save others?
WHY ? WHY? WHY ?
He might if they are closefriends or family.

Daoists follow the laws of Nature, work with Nature and live in Harmony with Nature.
Birth ,Life Death and destruction are part of the natural cycle ...earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, droughts, heat and cold, lightning.
A Daoist aims to live in harmony with these forces, and sometimes you have to let some die in order that others will live.
Not right or wrong, just the way nature is.


I read your profile,you're the Save-the world, give-my-left-kidney, my -last-penny-to-a-stranger , tree hugging, champion of-the-suffering do gooder. That's fine.
But it is from that perspective, you will find the Daoist way of kindness , quite different and hard to understand.

Like I said, Daoist are not trying to earn their way to heaven.
Keep that in mind and it will help you understand the Dao ( assuming you want to)

Panda wisdom: If you use only Binoculars , you'll never see Pluto

[SanYuan]

Maybe money can buy you Mr nzric, but it seems money can't buy everyone :)

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
............... Make it one of you guys because us non-IMA guys can't handle the strain. According to physics, the energy comes from somewhere so if you can show the energy didn't come from the volunteer's muscular action, it's clear evidence of empty force. .

Chuckles, such "demos' happen almost weekly.
Our jaws no longer drop.
But Master Bing will only do it to senoir students, trained enuff to "handle" it. ( note:I said "trained enuff", not "strong enuff" )

On a novice even like moi, it is a bit dangerous and serious internal injuries, Qi blockages requiring months of treatment might ensue.

Again you are using Western science to measure a pheonomena unknown to the West.
Hey, heard of the Geiger Counter?
It 's a device used to measure/ detect the presence of Radioactivity. Invented some 100 years ago in the course of scientific research into Radioactive phenomena, cutting edge stuff of that day.

According yo your argument, Radioactivity, Radium, Plutonium etc did not exist before the Geiger Counter was invented, because it's presence could not be detected or measured.
( By the way, I can make this statement because I have a degree in Radiation Physics from a western University. Not bragging otherwise.)


By the way, did you do a genetic test to prove that your Biological parents are truly them ? Or did you just believe them, because it felt so natural to have grown up in their presence?
What? No scientific test ?
And you just put you BLIND faith in their word ?
Hope you get the point.
Peace brother !


:)

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Azrael
pandajelly: How old are you if you do not mind me asking? I'm only quite young myself.

You seem young in body but not in mind.
Me, I'm an old f*a*r*t... but quite immature in mind ( can't you tell)
Hey, Daoists aim to turn back the clock and revert to pre-Birth state to ensure long long long lives.

Are you interested in Immortality?
If so you might like to research " Lu Dong Bin" and please research beyond the myth.

OK, the rest of you, except SanYuan, Bayou , theaustralian1 can pick yourselves up from the floor.
:cool:


Interestingly, the Bible also says "No man can enter the gates of heaven unless he has the heart of a child" .....hmmmmm interesting parallel.


:Angel:

[pandajelly]

Nzric,
I keep forgetting to mention this;

Scenario1:
Master Bing does the Million dollar test and proven authentic.
He donates prize to needy.
He becomes famous.
Face all over CNN.
Admirers, freaks, Men in black suits camp out side his home.
No privacy.
Family in danger
Cant meditate and lead quiet stressless life

Scenario2:
Master Bing does the Million dollar test is is proven authentic.
Become famous.
Skeptics say " Show us more'
That test wasn't done by us.
You were "lucky"
More test .More stress.
No not enuff, show us more and more, how about this?and that.
Does it work on an elephant?
How about a whale ?
Can we Xray your brain?
A sample of your blood?
Can we stick some electrodes and examine youe ECG, EEG, EMG?
MRI perhaps
Can we interview your friend, family teachers?
Are you into Witchcraft ?


Scenario3:
Master Bing does the Million dollar test is is proven authentic.
and achieves fame
Oprah wants to interview.
ROVE does the ultimate " WHAT THE ?"
Local police will want to recruit him
CIA come knocking "Teach us how to kill with this Empty Force "
Al Qaeda makes him a better offer, " Teach us or we'll kill your family"

How will he be able to live a simple life of a publicity shy Daoist with minimum stress necessary for a Daoist to ensure longevity?
Benefit Versus Cost

[pandajelly]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9530&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

If you think our thread is crazy, have a look at this one...... cant believe that thread has been going for so long !

[Azrael]

pandajelly: You know what? I was halfway through writting what would have been a very large and somewhat stinging reply, when I asked myself, 'why bother'?

This whole thread is nothing but one big advertising campaign for your school, teacher, and ego.

Quite seriously, I pray we never meet, as you and I have absolutely nothing in common, in any way shape or form. In fact, I am ecstatic that you refused the offer to train with whoever at the park, because it saves me the trouble of having to avoid you on a weekly basis.

Kat, Syd & Nzric: Looking forward to hooking up with you guys, probably not this week, but hopefully the next. Grandmaster Ma taught us some really nice chin na techniques, which I am sure you guys will really enjoy. I just hope I can remember them fully. Also, I hope yall don't mind, but one of my fellow Yang Mian brothers (only new to it though), who is funnily enough an ex student of Bing Zhao's, is interested in coming along, as is my friend who does Japanese Jujutsu. Would that be cool with you guys?

EVERYBODY: Unless you are interested in marketing, lol, my advice would be to stop posting to this thread, as it is going nowhere fast. It contains nothing of any value, nor does it hold wise or even qualified information of any sort. Eventually it will get so big from pandajelly's replies to himself, that MAP will be forced to take action and delete it, and at the rate that he has been going, it should not take all that long.

[Syd]

AZ,

Mate, I've held my tongue for this very reason. What is there left to say in the face of extreme narcissicism? ... not much.

Bring whoever my friend, I was looking into JJJ recently and opted for Judo as a supplement but have a minor injury which will have me away from training for a couple of weeks. Hopefully by then I can make it and it would be great to meet yourself and co, whoever they may be. I am keen to learn from everybody.

Best as ever, Syd :)

Oh, how many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?

What light bulb? They're too busy looking in the mirror.

Ba boom cha!

[theaustralian]

Azrael

"It contains nothing of any value, nor does it hold wise or even qualified information of any sort"

Have you been reding any posts by SanYaun? i think there is more wisdom in any one of his sentences then in all your posts combined!

You seem to have the wrong mindset for IMA maybe its a good thing you have decided to leave this thread.

Panda

"Rove gets the ultimate what the?"

Good one :D


IMO what bing teaches is whatever you wish to call it is very anti stress/Anti struggle. This tread is not anything like that, to those of u in bings class see u soon:) to others in this thread in general i think this is one topic that you dont get convinced on without seeing it or feeling it for yourself thats why i feel this thread is going nowhere i hope some of you can learn to veiw things from other perspectives and YES there is a way to disagree without being overly critical! SOME of u should try it.

~Scott

[nzric]

I agree, ended. The PJ username has only cropped up in this one thread so I suspect that once we end this, the person responsible will find another one to hide behind, to make it seem like there are more people with his pov than there really are.

You've answered my question about the test. I've said that Bing could use his power to worthy causes (even without the cape and spandex) but if he wants to let the poor little orphan children die just to save himself an afternoon, I can't do anything to stop him.

What did you read in my profile - that my interests were the UN and "saving the world" - so you took that seriously? First of all, if an interest in current affairs makes you think I'm a tree hugging greenie then you have serious problems. Second, you have absolutely no idea who I am or what drives me (btw - the heaven dig was way off the mark).

I'm going to go one better guys, I'm going to step out of this thread and I'm not going to open it again. I'm sure what's his name (I lose track of them) will try to turn any thread, from shoe size to what you had for breakfast, into a debate about empty force, but I think he's shown his motives for what they really are.

Bye dude

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Azrael
pandajelly: You know what? I was halfway through writting what would have been a very large and somewhat stinging reply, when I asked myself, 'why bother'?

This whole thread is nothing but one big advertising campaign for your school, teacher, and ego.

Quite seriously, I pray we never meet, as you and I have absolutely nothing in common, in any way shape or form. In fact, I am ecstatic that you refused the offer to train with whoever at the park, because it saves me the trouble of having to avoid you on a weekly basis.Azrael,
I'm sorry you feel that way.But you are not correct in saying this thread is an Ad campaign for the school I attend. Look back to the start of the thread, notice THEAUSTRALIAN1 was inquiring how to contact Master Bing. And I responded. Then slowly and mysteriously nzric, syd ,azrael, drifted in and shifted the focus to Park Taichi.
If anything ,the 3 of you are in the wrong place. This thread by way of the original subject was meant to discuss ALL THINGS BING and wasn't intended for those wishing to mock, test or dissect him or Empty Force or the Dao.

I actually felt you had the right receptive attitude and was considering opening the door to you in a few months, but I guess your really "nice and polite" questionaire you got me to fill up had an insincere intent.

Like I said I never wanted to join your park activities.
That will NEVER happen so your prayer is answered.
For me to do that kind of IMA is like Homo Sapien turning back into ape.
And like I said, there's nothing the park guys can teach me because none of you are Empty Force practitioners, I'm not interested in learning Bagua or HsingI or TaiChi.
So you go and polish up your TaiChi and Bagua,let me refine my Empty Force.

But when you do see the light sometime in the future, maybe we can talk again.
Master Bing is keen to teach the Dao, but only to those who choose to learn not those who want to fight.

Peace Brother

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by Syd
Oh, how many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb?

What light bulb? They're too busy looking in the mirror.



You would too if you had a halo like me.
:woo:

[pandajelly]

Originally posted by nzric
..........but if he wants to let the poor little orphan children die just to save himself an afternoon, I can't do anything to stop him.



Nzric,
I don't understand why you even wish to learn self defence.
Your save the world beliefs are highly commendable and I respect you for it. But it wasn't nice of you to mock my teacher.

Should you be killed by a knife wielding mugger, you could have all your organs donately and possibly save a dozen lives...Just like Cricketeer David Hookes.

So wouldn't that be ideal...the ultimate altruistic act?
Your life for a dozen?

Oh, did I just change the way you see things now ?
So suddenly your life is quite precious too.

So is Master Bing's.

[pandajelly]

Theaustralian1, SanYuan, Buyao , Soggycat.... you know what ?I think nzric is suggesting we are all one and the same person , Master Bing himself ..Is that funny ?
:-)