Hapkido 10th dan Practitioners

[Thomas]

In Hapkido, there are not a lot of 10th dan ranked practitioners in the world. It would be very interesting (to me anyway) to make a thread about these people who are guiding and shaping the art the we love and practice.

Here's what I think would be nice:
(1)Name, rank (10 dan only please) and organization
(2)Link (or written) biography of this person and their background
(3)Any personal experiences you have had with this personal
(4)Any other links for more information/ any other thoughts or ideas

Here's my example:
(1) GM In Sun Seo, 10th dan, Han Min Jok Hapkido Association (http://www.kidohae.com/index.htm)
(2) Biography
http://www.kidohae.com/2-2GMProfile1.html
(3)I was fortunate enough to be able to attend a 2 day seminar with this amazing man. I wrote up a review in my journal, see entry #48 . In my “Photo Gallery”, there are some pictures of GM In Sun Seo in action from that seminar
(4)GM In Sun Seo is an amazingly smooth practitioner and his seminar was awesome. He is very personable and made a point to get around and work with everyone. He made a point even during breaks and lunch to mingle and greet everyone. My impression was that he is not only a top level Hapkido practitioner, but also a very nice, kind and humble man.

Let's here from other people who know of, or better yet, have had experiences with the 10th dan practitioners in Hapkido.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

I never met a 10th Dan in KMA, as far as I know Trad Korean Arts end at 9th Dan.

1st to 3rd dan are assistant Instr. ranks
4th & 5th Master
6th & 7th Master Instr.
8th & 9th Grand Master which is very new in KMA and not used until maybe the last 10 years.

Some Korean founders have the title of Doju which has no rank asociated with it.

I know quite a few 9th dans it's not always what it's cracked up to be in the sense that most KMA curriculums end at 4th dan some 5th, So in the simple technical sense they don't know that much more than a 4th, 5th dan.

With that being said they do ussually have alot more refinement of thier skills and expirience, which to me means so much!

Many of the higher dan ranks like 7th, 8th, 9th are somewhat inactive as instrs. also by that time, they're well into middle age.

In Trad HKD it takes quite a while to get to 5, 6, 7th, dan which is considered quite a high rank, most never get to 8th or 9th and it's usually political for thier contribution to the system or appointed by some association.

Remember after 4th, 5th dan the rest is mainly honorary for time in the system, teaching etc.

People who start thier own system in KMA are usually appointed to 9th dan or founder if accepted by some authorizing body, or are just self appointments.

For example my last formal test was at 4th dan, the rest was done by my master's evaluation at his discression. My first Master was a 6th for over 10 years and a 7th for 14 years now. These trad master feel to get a higher rank basically means thier retired and inactive as Instr.

[HapkidoScott]

1. GM Kwang Sik Myung, 10th Dan, World HapKiDo Federation
2. Biography www.koreanhapkido.com/hapkido.htm (http://www.koreanhapkido.com/hapkido.htm)
3. I was privileged and honored to meet and train with GM Myung at a seminar on April 26th of this year.
4. My experience with GM Myung was similar to Thomas' experience in that he was very friendly and walked around instructing and talking to everyone. After the seminar there was a potluck where everyone went and ate and talked with him, I could not make it but hopefully next year I will. My main school is run by a family whom are some of his longtime students so I am very fortunate to be able to attend a yearly seminar by GM Myung. I feel very lucky to have this training available to me at such an early time in my training. Also, I noticed that all of the blackbelts, and colored belts, shared his positive, patient, and kind attitude.

[Wolf]

American HKD,

10th dan is something that is used in TKMA. I've actually read the bio before of the GM that Thomas speaks of. In Sun Seo is also the brother of In Hyuk Suh who is the founder and 10th Dan of Kuk Sool Won (we only use one 10th dan). Their younger brother, In Joo Suh, is the Chiefmaster (9th Dan) as appointed by In Hyuk Suh. I'm fairly certian that I've heard of 10th Dans in Tae Kwon Do as well. I could be wrong about the TKD thing, but I do know that GM In Sun Seo is a 10th dan HKD, and of course the GM of my style, Kuk Sool Won. Just thought I'd include my 2 cents.

[American HKD]

Greetings

I'm aware of these two 10th dans and most Masters in the HKD world thought GM Myungs 10th dan was a strange and unusual, not because he not a great master but because it's not customary.

As far as I know Myung was promoted by Ji Han Jae to 9th dan as the highest possible rank. Ji Han Jae can promote to 9th dan, but he holds no rank of 10th dan only of Doju (founder).

Myung's own Federation gave him a 10th Dan which again is not a promotion by one's Master and is very unsual in KMA.

Choi Yong Sul highest promotion was a 9th dan as well.

These are rare exceptions to the rule and some associations wanting to honor thier leaders by the use of 10th dan rank, because there was no where for them to go.

The same is probably true with GM Seo, his 10th dan is from what master's appoinment, the bio doesn't say?

You'll all get my drift with the 10th dan thing honorary and unusual beyond the norm in KMA.

[HapkidoScott]

I put the information here that I have researched and I have not heard of the circumstances of GM Myung's 10th Dan but I will not personally disrespect him in any way, not that I would ever want too. I find it odd that it is being questioned as I have seen articles about him in MA magazines(not only for HapKiDo) and his history in HapKiDo is lifelong so I feel that he definitely is a legitimate GM. I must say that I am a bit disappointed at the eagerness to debate the legitimacy of GM's that are reputable. I am very proud to be able to trace my lineage through GM Myung and to one day have a blackbelt through the World HapKiDo Federation. I apologize Thomas for the sidetracking of this excellent thread and I won't add any more to it but I feel that I had to say something in a respectful manner in response to the comments regarding GM Myung.

[austinso]

It is important to know the significance of Dan ranks Korean martial arts.

1. Up to 7th Dan, Dans are awarded to you by the organization for your skill and ability.

2. After 7th Dan, your students effectively elect you for higher Dan ranks and are in that sense honorary. As a cultural thing, students find it hard to have the same rank as their seniors, so they ask that their seniors take a higher rank than they. This is why a 2nd Dan rank from the 60's is in some senses "worth" a lot more than a 7th Dan from the 90's. Of course, this can lead to some abuse as sometimes the number of students and dojangs has been taken to be the only requisite measure of worth by many HKD organizations.

3. 10th Dan and Doju are new concepts to the whole thing. In Korean culture, it is hard to accept that people can give themselves these titles (if that makes any sense)...again perhaps something someone could accept from their students. "Dojunim" is actually a modern term (there is no Korean word or concept...it is two chinese characters chosen for their combined meaning) that was coined I think by Ji Han Jae.

Austin

[Thomas]

Greetings all,
This thread was not started to be any sort of negative thread.


Its purpose was for people to discuss the heads of the various Hapkido organizations. I was looking for information on people like GM In Sun Seo, GM Myung Jae-nam, GM Myung Kwang-sik, GM Hwang In-shik, GM Kim Jin Pal, GM Oh Se-lim, GM S.K. Kim, and anyone else who is recognized as a 10th dan. I mention these because a quick web seach will turn up this information. I thought it would be nice to have people discuss their own personal experiences.

By the way:
Here's a good read on The rank structure of Hapkido (by Dr. Scott Shaw)
http://www.scottshaw.com/hapkidorank.html





.
As far as I know Myung was promoted by Ji Han Jae to 9th dan as the highest possible rank. Ji Han Jae can promote to 9th dan, but he holds no rank of 10th dan only of Doju (founder).

I am sorry, but I was a bit confused because I have seen GM Ji Han Jae listed in some places as 10th dan. Below is what a quick search turned up, especially the last link which shows an "instructor seminar" certificate signed by Ji Han Jae, 10th dan.

Any insight on why the confusion would be appreciated.


Grandmaster Ji Han Jae (10th Dan) heads his extensive Sin Moo Hapkido organization.


(http://www.australianhapkido.com/hkdhistory.htm)


Regular Column by Grandmaster Jürg Ziegler (9th Dan Sin Moo Hapkido; Headmaster and Representative for all European, Middle East and Eurasien Countries for Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae (10th Dan, true Founder of Hapkido), President of the EUROPEAN SIN MOO HAPKIDO ASSOCIATION - ESMHA - with members in over 30 Countries world-wide).
(http://www.kungfu.ch/Hapkido/what_is_hapkido.htm)
Seminar advertisement “Ji, Han Jae, 10th dan”
http://www.beckmartialarts.com/Ji_flyer.html

A 6th dan Sin Moo Hapkido practitioner refering to GM Ji Han Jae as “10th dan”
http://www.hurkchookwan.com/id42_x.htm

A certificate refering to GM Ji Han Jae, 10th dan
http://www.worldhapkido.no/cert/sin_moo_certificate.jpg
and one from GM Ji Han Jae for “Instructor Training” signed “Grandmaster Ji Han Jae, 10th dan, Founder of Hapkido”
http://www.worldhapkido.no/cert/instructor_training.jpg

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Unfortunatly you can't believe everything because someone wrote it. I see the confusion caused by the Loosely thrown around term 10th dan in KMA.

Doju Ji is Founder which has no rank at all, he is above any rank and in fact has no rank. Many call him 10th dan however this is a mistake on thier part.

Who could promote one to 10 dan? Only an 11th Dan of course and there is no such rank!

Maybe one's self appointment to 10th dan is another possibility.

GM Myung took the title by a popular agreement of his board. Here in lies the modern day problem with these titles and ranks.

1. GM Myungs board is not made up of 11th dans but a select few of his senior students or peers. For example how can several 6,7,8, dans promote anyone to 10th it's completley above thier authority besides being completely unheard of.

2. Many in the know would also readily agree that the term Grand Master was never used by trad KMA before a few years ago.

This hype if you will came from the west and thier quest for higher and more prestigious ranks and titles. Egos and marketing for business purposes.

A 10th dan is simply not part of KMA tradition.

Of course in our era of anything goes I just promoted myself to 12th Dan Supreme GM of Super American Hapkido. :eek:

[HapkidoScott]

Thomas, I would again like to apologize but I am very angry and offended that someone (for whom I had respected) questions the authenticity of a legitimate GM who only wishes to continue his lifelong passion of training in HapKiDo. I try to not be negative sir, and I promise to be more positive from now on. Please except my apology.

[American HKD]

It is important to know the significance of Dan ranks Korean martial arts.

1. Up to 7th Dan, Dans are awarded to you by the organization for your skill and ability.

2. After 7th Dan, your students effectively elect you for higher Dan ranks and are in that sense honorary. As a cultural thing, students find it hard to have the same rank as their seniors, so they ask that their seniors take a higher rank than they. This is why a 2nd Dan rank from the 60's is in some senses "worth" a lot more than a 7th Dan from the 90's. Of course, this can lead to some abuse as sometimes the number of students and dojangs has been taken to be the only requisite measure of worth by many HKD organizations.

3. 10th Dan and Doju are new concepts to the whole thing. In Korean culture, it is hard to accept that people can give themselves these titles (if that makes any sense)...again perhaps something someone could accept from their students. "Dojunim" is actually a modern term (there is no Korean word or concept...it is two chinese characters chosen for their combined meaning) that was coined I think by Ji Han Jae.

Austin

Agreed, expect the term doju (founder) has been around in regards to HKD for many years the KHF clearly refers to Choi Young Sul 1st founder, and Ji Han Jae 2nd founder.

[American HKD]

I put the information here that I have researched and I have not heard of the circumstances of GM Myung's 10th Dan but I will not personally disrespect him in any way, not that I would ever want too. I find it odd that it is being questioned as I have seen articles about him in MA magazines(not only for HapKiDo) and his history in HapKiDo is lifelong so I feel that he definitely is a legitimate GM. I must say that I am a bit disappointed at the eagerness to debate the legitimacy of GM's that are reputable. I am very proud to be able to trace my lineage through GM Myung and to one day have a blackbelt through the World HapKiDo Federation. I apologize Thomas for the sidetracking of this excellent thread and I won't add any more to it but I feel that I had to say something in a respectful manner in response to the comments regarding GM Myung.

Greetings

Your completely missing the point here.

We are talking about the term 10th dan in a trad. sense, not the legitimacy of any master's quailifications or skill.

[American HKD]

Greetings

........Greetings all,
This thread was not started to be any sort of negative thread.

Its purpose was for people to discuss the heads of the various Hapkido organizations. I was looking for information on people like GM In Sun Seo, GM Myung Jae-nam, GM Myung Kwang-sik, GM Hwang In-shik, GM Kim Jin Pal, GM Oh Se-lim, GM S.K. Kim, and anyone else who is recognized as a 10th dan. I mention these because a quick web seach will turn up this information. I thought it would be nice to have people discuss their own personal experiences.........

GreetinI agree it would be a good topic I just couldn't figure out who was a 10th Dan? What 11th Dan promote the above Masters?

I personally know GM Oh Se Lim and had dinner with him on 2 occasions he's a 9th Dan the highest rank issued by the KHF. The only 2 people that are his seniors are Choi Young Sul & Ji Han Jae.

Maybe times are changing and many leaders want to be 10th dans now, so be it, but you must realize this is a new phenomenon

Thomas this is not directed to you per se, but in general there's so much ignorance in HKD when I see it I have to say something, I didn't mean to ruin your thread.

[Legless_Marine]

In Hapkido, there are not a lot of 10th dan ranked practitioners in the world. It would be very interesting (to me anyway) to make a thread about these people who are guiding and shaping the art the we love and practice.

Here's what I think would be nice:
(1)Name, rank (10 dan only please) and organization
(2)Link (or written) biography of this person and their background
(3)Any personal experiences you have had with this personal
(4)Any other links for more information/ any other thoughts or ideas

Here's my example:
(1) GM In Sun Seo, 10th dan, Han Min Jok Hapkido Association

HUH??!

Isn't In Sun Seo In Hyuk Suh's (KSW GM) Brother?!?!?

Odd.

In our sleepy city of Calgary, we have 3 Hapkido GMs. There's the brother Ki.C. Yoon, and B.O.Yoon, and then my own Grandmaster, Hyun Soo Park.

Unfortunately, I know little of their backgrounds.

I think it would be fascinating to have someone put together a "family tree" of the HKD GMs. I'm sure there's very few degrees of separation among them.

[austinso]

Sorry Stuart...

The term "doju" has not been around for many years as you say. It was a very recent creation...in fact it came after 10th Dan was given as a title and became common use particularly for those who were the head of their own organizations (it has *no* bearing on their original rank with the KHF...you misunderstand its usage). You seem to forget that anything above 7th Dan is awarded effectively by the students of the organization, and not because of 11th Dan's or higher, or because they necessarily "want" it.

I'm 90% sure that GM Ji coined the phrase when he started the Sin Moo branch, then of course, everyone else (Lee Joo Bang, Seo In Sun, etc.) started using it too.

You can of course show me that I'm wrong...

So when you start casting aspersions to others about the modern-day irrelevance of dan ranks, you need not go further than the dan ranks of say people like Jurg Ziegler, who has 9th Dan rank under Sin Moo HKD.

Austin

[austinso]

Daniel Swan wrote:
> I think it would be fascinating to have someone put together a "family tree" of the
> HKD GMs. I'm sure there's very few degrees of separation among them.

There used to be such a tree, but then from what I understand, people started abusing it by claiming lineages that did not exist or that were not entirely true.

Austin

[Hapkidoin P]

If you really want to get down and dirty..In traditional Korean martial culture there was no such thing as Dahn,Gup,Doju..whatever. All these things are "imports" and recent ones at that.

I personally find it funny(in an ironic way) to have a phenominal MAist like Young Sool Choi who founded an art with no rank....then gave rank out...then many years later people are arguing about whose rank is "legit" and whose isn't. I'd be willing to bet he'd just shake his head and say "You all are missing the point."

I really believe that rank is a moot point nowadays,anyway. One's experience and technique is really only visible in one place..on the mat.

[American HKD]

Sorry Stuart...

The term "doju" has not been around for many years as you say. It was a very recent creation...in fact it came after 10th Dan was given as a title and became common use particularly for those who were the head of their own organizations (it has *no* bearing on their original rank with the KHF...you misunderstand its usage). You seem to forget that anything above 7th Dan is awarded effectively by the students of the organization, and not because of 11th Dan's or higher, or because they necessarily "want" it.

Where do you get that from?

I'm 90% sure that GM Ji coined the phrase when he started the Sin Moo branch, then of course, everyone else (Lee Joo Bang, Seo In Sun, etc.) started using it too.


Doju or founder is used by the KHF in reagrds to Choi & Ji. My 1st Instr. has called Choi the founder for as long as I been in the art 26 years now.


You can of course show me that I'm wrong...

So when you start casting aspersions to others about the modern-day irrelevance of dan ranks, you need not go further than the dan ranks of say people like Jurg Ziegler, who has 9th Dan rank under Sin Moo HKD.

What aspersion?, I'm talking strickly about the use of the 10th dan in Trad KMA. Your say a group of 7ths can promoted anyone to any rank, based on what? thier bylaws of the assoc.?

Austin

Trad Korean MA promtions were only given directly by ones teacher who was a senior or the founder, head master, instr. etc.

Doju Choi needed no board to promote anyone, Ji Han Jae needs no board, nor do I.

I do need an assoc. for my students if they are to be recognized by a large governing body such as any particular Assoc,, KHF, WHF, CH, etc.

[MaxG]

Geez,

It's really getting ridiculous in this place. Here all Thomas wanted to do was have a nice discussion about people's experiences with training with 10th dan's and what do we get

YET ANOTHER TOPIC WHERE IT TURNS INTO ANOTHER FLAME WAR. :bang: :bang: :bang:

MAP is becoming like all the rest of the martial art forums on the net. Nothing but bickering.

austinso I believe is referring to the tree that was formerly at hapkido-info.net. It was a very nice tree. Such a shame that political BS yet again rears it's ugly head.
http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkido_info.com.html



On topic: I have yet to train with a 10th dan but hopefully one day I can go to one of In Sun Seo's seminars when he visits the U.S.

[Legless_Marine]

Geez,

It's really getting ridiculous in this place. Here all Thomas wanted to do was have a nice discussion about people's experiences with training with 10th dan's and what do we get

YET ANOTHER TOPIC WHERE IT TURNS INTO ANOTHER FLAME WAR. :bang: :bang: :bang:



Although there may be some minor contention and disagreement, I don't see that anyone is being disrepespectful or abusive. Personally, I am finding it all very informative.

[MJR]

Thomas,

You requested some information about some teachers, mine among them. Here are a few links to information about Master Hwang In-Shik.

(He uses "master" and laughed when he read the references to him as being "Supreme Grandmaster". He said to me "You know, there really is no such thing!")

http://www.worldhapkido.com/hwangsem.htm

http://www.eaglehapkido.com

http://www.bootmasters.btinternet.co.uk/text/whang.htm

Another poster placed this list on another thread. I believe that it came from Peter Sand's Hapkido family tree from a section of Hapkido-net.com which he closed down because there was too much arguing over who or who was not legitimate. These are all, as I understand it, fairly high ranked individuals:

Choi Yong Shul's senior students:
Chang, Chin-Il
Chang, Young-Shil
Choi, Bok-Yeul
Han, Bong-Soo
Hwang, In-Shik
Im, Hyun-Soo
Kim, Chong S.
Kim, Jung-Soo
Kim, Jung-Yoon
Kim, Moo-Hong
Kim, Yun-Sang
Lee, Jung-Nam
Lee, Kun-He
Moon, Ji-Kang
Myung, Kwang-Sik
Park, Jung-Hwan
Park, Nam-Sun
Rim, Jong-Bae
Seo, In-Sun
Son, Yu-Un
Song, Young-Ki
Suh, Bok-Su
Suh, In-Hyuk
Te, Chung-Ke
Won, Kwang-Wha

Ji Han Jae's senior students(Sung Moo Kwan):
Choi, Sea-Oh
Han, Bong-Soo
Hwang, Duk-Kyu
Kang, Doo-Sik
Kim, Jin-Pal
Kim, Myung-Yong
Kim, Sou-Bong

Like Mr. Sand, I won't argue who should be included who is not nor who is included who should not be. (Or who should be under Choi and who should be under Ji since many teachers trained under both men.)

Master Hwang contunues to live and train at the Eagle Hapkido Headquarters in Toronto. He is in the dojang everyday when he is not giving a seminar and he contunues to be able to hit harder and harder.

I lived and and trained in Korea and Japan he is the greatest teacher/practitioner that I have ever met. That's enough for me, regardless of dan.

Master Hwang, himself, has always spoken with great respect for the skills possessed by Master Hwang Duk Kyu.

[austinso]

Where do you get that from?

Where do I get what from?

Doju or founder is used by the KHF in reagrds to Choi & Ji. My 1st Instr. has called Choi the founder for as long as I been in the art 26 years now.

We are talking specifically about the term "Do-ju", which as far as I know, does not exist except under *western* martial art circles. Hell...look even in the most comprehensive Korean dictionary out there, and you will not find the term. If it is accepted under Korean MA circles these days, then it is because of it being common usage in the west.

What aspersion?, I'm talking strickly about the use of the 10th dan in Trad KMA. Your say a group of 7ths can promoted anyone to any rank, based on what? thier bylaws of the assoc.?

Obviously, a group of 7th Dans aren't exactly going to start promoting anyone above them unless the person they promote is their senior...

Sorry...please don't get rankled...I'm not placing any value judgement on the issue of Dan ranks (I don't care either way). I'm trying to give some context and history as I've come to know.

Try not to think of this statically...historically in korean MAs, it was simply white or black. Just like in trades (apprentice, journeyman, master). But for Korean MAs, there were no true MA schools, and no historical precedence or hierarchy. So in the beginning, Dan ranks were awarded by essentially by acclamation (by the board of peers and students).

What do you think was going on in the early days of HKD anyway? Who was promoting whom?

of course there is a chance of abuse...knowingly or unknowningly. I'm just saying this is the attitude of promotion.

Again...no value judgement.

Trad Korean MA promtions were only given directly by ones teacher who was a senior or the founder, head master, instr. etc.

Doju Choi needed no board to promote anyone, Ji Han Jae needs no board, nor do I.

I do need an assoc. for my students if they are to be recognized by a large governing body such as any particular Assoc,, KHF, WHF, CH, etc.

[mike-IHF]

To All,

In my own opinion there is only one person that should have ever held the title of 10th Dan, and that's Choi and no one but him. However theoretically anyone who starts their own style, or art could consider themselves a 10th Dan. I just don't agree with in terms of talking about Choi's art. It's just ike our GM. He started his own IHF, so really he could call himself a 10th Dan, but he doesen't. He said "the only person that deserves that title is Choi". Just my 2 cents.

[American HKD]

Although there may be some minor contention and disagreement, I don't see that anyone is being disrepespectful or abusive. Personally, I am finding it all very informative.

Greetings

I also think it's good to talk about this stuff, it's educates many people about the goings on behind the sceens so to speak.

But, You can never please everyone all the time.

[American HKD]

Where do I get what from?



We are talking specifically about the term "Do-ju", which as far as I know, does not exist except under *western* martial art circles. Hell...look even in the most comprehensive Korean dictionary out there, and you will not find the term. If it is accepted under Korean MA circles these days, then it is because of it being common usage in the west.

Founder is a common western term, I don't understand where you're comming from?

Obviously, a group of 7th Dans aren't exactly going to start promoting anyone above them unless the person they promote is their senior...

Sorry...please don't get rankled...I'm not placing any value judgement on the issue of Dan ranks (I don't care either way). I'm trying to give some context and history as I've come to know.

Try not to think of this statically...historically in korean MAs, it was simply white or black. Just like in trades (apprentice, journeyman, master). But for Korean MAs, there were no true MA schools, and no historical precedence or hierarchy. So in the beginning, Dan ranks were awarded by essentially by acclamation (by the board of peers and students).

What do you think was going on in the early days of HKD anyway? Who was promoting whom?

of course there is a chance of abuse...knowingly or unknowningly. I'm just saying this is the attitude of promotion.

Again...no value judgement.

Greetings,

I'm also NOT putting down anyones abilities here in fact all the people Thomas mentioned in the begining are known to be world class masters.

I've have used one or two just for illustration purposes only.

So far no one has shown that the 10th dan actually exists and more importantly how anyone gets that ranks other than from a board of directors or self appointment.

I feel strongly that there's NO BASIS or PRECEDENT in KMA for that to happen, but todays MA era everything is up for grabs and all the politically correct minded folks or the ignorant masses just follow along and get upset the question is even raised.

What nerve of some people for using thier mind.

[Thomas]

MJR: Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks for such a nice post.

Okay, I appreciate the discussion of 10th dan and "do ju" and do think it has merit in this thread, afterall we are trying to discuss "Hapkido 10th dans", so any further information on that would be good as well.

Perhaps I should have said: What I would like to see is information, links, and personal experiences discussed with heads of Hapkido associations/federations/etc.... regardless of whether they are 4-10th dan or not. Mainly I'd like to see some respect and discussion of the "movers and shakers" of our art.

Come on guys, spill the beans!

[HapkidoScott]

I thought we should bring this back so we could share stories as per Thomas request. Anyone? I all ready wrote mine, I thought this was a thread that would be interesting to share experiences on. Please.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Your right it's a good topic.

For me studying under a person like Ji Han Jae has increased my knowledge and understanding of the Art of HKD dramatically.

Althought I have many years expirience under another great master he did'nt have the knowledge of the Founder of HKD in quite the same way.

Technique wise, I already knew over 90% of the same techniques Doju Ji was teaching but he was able to tweak some of my movements and futher refine my skill.

There's no substitute for learning from the person who's the real bottom line in HKD and that needs to be expirienced to see and feel the difference.

[klaasb]

Doju and 10th dan are not the same.
The head of a style is the doju. When the doju dies, somebody else takes it over.

The late GM Myung Jae Nam from the IHF was doju (founder of hankido) and kuksa (nations master). And when your refer to somebody else, you should use the -nim suffix. So kuksanim Myung Jae Nam. Now his son is the new dojunim.

I know that kuksanim Myung Jae Nam issued 10 dan certificates to both his brother (Myung Jae Ok) and to Ji Han Jae. And probably (but I am not sure) to Hoi In Hwan.

[American HKD]

Doju and 10th dan are not the same.
The head of a style is the doju. When the doju dies, somebody else takes it over.

The late GM Myung Jae Nam from the IHF was doju (founder of hankido) and kuksa (nations master). And when your refer to somebody else, you should use the -nim suffix. So kuksanim Myung Jae Nam. Now his son is the new dojunim.

I know that kuksanim Myung Jae Nam issued 10 dan certificates to both his brother (Myung Jae Ok) and to Ji Han Jae. And probably (but I am not sure) to Hoi In Hwan.

Greetings

Doju and Soke are'nt the same I believe?

Soke is Head of Family

Doju is Founder

Maybe in some way they can be considered the same, but the Head of Family can be any person who inherates the system and need not be the systems creator.

[klaasb]

Soke, sounds Japanese to me :)

In Korean it would probably be the same. Almost everybody refers to eachother in terms of familymembers. (Hyung, Nuna, Onni, Oppa, etc. etc.)

[Jointlock]

In my opinion ranks after 6th and/or 7th become more about politics than they are about the physical art (especially in TKD where all of the techniques have been taught by 4th Dan). Don't misread I still believe that the people that get promoted to 10th Dan are or should be the top of the line as far as executing the art.

However people more often get promoted to the higher ranks for the things that they do to spread the art: giving seminars, holding tournaments, opening schools, accepting postitions in the association/federation, etc.

American HKD, I'm not sure if I understand your logic on this matter in earlier posts. Granted I do not have the experience that you have, and I'm not in your position. That said, are you saying that the only person that can promote people to the highest rank in that art is the founder of that art? If so what happens when the founder dies? May he/she promote someone to a high enough position to be able to promote everyone else? If not it would seem like the art would digress when everyone that was 10th dan died (heaven forbid), so then no one could be promoted to 9th dan, then they die, and no one could be promoted to 8th and so on. It's the chicken and the egg.

For that reason it is my contention that the higher ranks are more about politics (not in a bad sense) than anything else. And, I think that's the way it should be. If someone is progressing the art, educating people about it to a high degree, making Hapkido look good then they should be promoted to a high position.

American HKD, I am really interested in your point of view since you have trained with Do Ju Ji.

[American HKD]

In my opinion ranks after 6th and/or 7th become more about politics than they are about the physical art (especially in TKD where all of the techniques have been taught by 4th Dan). Don't misread I still believe that the people that get promoted to 10th Dan are or should be the top of the line as far as executing the art.

However people more often get promoted to the higher ranks for the things that they do to spread the art: giving seminars, holding tournaments, opening schools, accepting postitions in the association/federation, etc.

American HKD, I'm not sure if I understand your logic on this matter in earlier posts. Granted I do not have the experience that you have, and I'm not in your position. That said, are you saying that the only person that can promote people to the highest rank in that art is the founder of that art? If so what happens when the founder dies? May he/she promote someone to a high enough position to be able to promote everyone else? If not it would seem like the art would digress when everyone that was 10th dan died (heaven forbid), so then no one could be promoted to 9th dan, then they die, and no one could be promoted to 8th and so on. It's the chicken and the egg.

For that reason it is my contention that the higher ranks are more about politics (not in a bad sense) than anything else. And, I think that's the way it should be. If someone is progressing the art, educating people about it to a high degree, making Hapkido look good then they should be promoted to a high position.

American HKD, I am really interested in your point of view since you have trained with Do Ju Ji.

Greetings

What I'm saying is traditionally and historically someone needs to be a least one dan higher to promote, meaning an 8th can promote only to a 7th etc.

The founder can appoint a successor in which case the successor is above rank and becomes "head of the system". If Doju Ji never appoints a succesor the most anyone can ever be is a 8th dan promoted by a 9th.

Many break off associations in mordern times like the KHF or WHF, have board of masters and jointly they appoint one to 9th or 10th dan, but that's modern because they broke the tradition of Founder to the next head of family.

So thier "boards" replaced the traditonal successor of the system. Why because everyone wants to be in charge and they can democractically elect someone rather then have to listen to one person.

Modern MA :rolleyes:

I almost forgot high dan ranks are an honor but don't mean much technically after 5th dan which traditionally very high rank. 6,7,8,9 all honorary and for more dedication, time in a system, promoting, teaching, etc.

[Jointlock]

Originally posted by American HKD

So thier "boards" replaced the traditonal successor of the system. Why because everyone wants to be in charge and they can democractically electic someone rather then have to listen to one person.

Is this such a bad thing? I understand what you're saying, but with the controversy over who founded Hapkido and the several organizations. If people don't get along they're going to do it their own way. As long as they can back up their rank with knowledge, character, ethics, and their history then no one should have a problem with it.

Just curious, did GM Choi name a successor?

[American HKD]

Is this such a bad thing? I understand what you're saying, but with the controversy over who founded Hapkido and the several organizations. If people don't get along they're going to do it their own way. As long as they can back up their rank with knowledge, character, ethics, and their history then no one should have a problem with it.

Just curious, did GM Choi name a successor?

Greetings

I wasn't talking about who started what, only the wat promotions work.

Choi did name a succesor I can't remember his name but he's a Korean man who lives in New York City and is inactive in Hapkido and quite reclusive from my understanding.

Choi's system is not the same system Ji Han Jae developed, it's more like a basic Jujutsu system but we all share most of the same basics.

[klaasb]

If Ji Han Jae developed his own system, why did he accept/ask for/need a 10th dan from a federation that does something completely else?

[American HKD]

If Ji Han Jae developed his own system, why did he accept/ask for/need a 10th dan from a federation that does something completely else?

Greetings

If your speaking of the KHF/KHA/Kido Hae, they all practice Ji's style of HKD style pre Sin Moo and Doju Ji was the Master of all the seniors including Myung Jae Nam, Hwang Sik Myung, Kim Jin Pal, Oh Se Lim, Hwang In Sik, Kim Jae Nam, on and on and on.

So what's your point he was honored by the federations he started and the masters he taught?

I think it's great!

[klaasb]

Ji Han Jae got his 10th dan from the IHF in the early 80's. When GM Myung Jae Nam had long left the 'old' hapkido behind him.

Isn't it strange that you accept a rank from one of your students anyway?

If I would let my students promote me these days, everybody would say that it is a strange thing to do. Actually a lot of the McDojang 'masters' we so often mock on forums like this, get their high degrees that way.

[mike-IHF]

Klassb,

I believe what Stuart was saying is that the 10th Dan that was given to Ji by Myung was basically an honorary rank. It has nothing to do with Ji knowing Myung's material. Atleast that's my belief.

[American HKD]

Ji Han Jae got his 10th dan from the IHF in the early 80's. When GM Myung Jae Nam had long left the 'old' hapkido behind him.

Isn't it strange that you accept a rank from one of your students anyway?

If I would let my students promote me these days, everybody would say that it is a strange thing to do. Actually a lot of the McDojang 'masters' we so often mock on forums like this, get their high degrees that way.


Greetings

I think you don't reall understand or are intentionally being difficult?

Of course Doju doesn't need a rank from any of his students, that goes without saying.

Many people get honorary Doctorate degrees from a college and have never learned anything.

People repect thier seniors or masters and give them a 10th from thier Association as a show of respect.

That's All!

[iron_ox]

Just curious, did GM Choi name a successor?

Yes, his name is Chang, Chin Il, Dojunim. He currently does not have an active public club (that I know of), but may still teach at the United Nations in New York City, where he has taught for many years. He has been the Dojunim since 1985.

[JimH]

GM Chin Il Chang was named successor and was tasked with reuniting all Hapkido under one banner,he was and is not able to accomplish this mission.

He was teaching at a dance studio in Manhattan,but has left in the last year with no forwarding address and no other school opened under him at this time.

[American HKD]

GM Chin Il Chang was named successor and was tasked with reuniting all Hapkido under one banner,he was and is not able to accomplish this mission.

He was teaching at a dance studio in Manhattan,but has left in the last year with no forwarding address and no other school opened under him at this time.

Greetings

Neither was Choi himself and Ji with the Kido Hae.

[BackFistMonkey]

Has anyone heard of

Grandmaster Bill Chang, 9th Dan

or

Leonard C. Holifield 6th Degree Black Belt

[Hapkid0ist]

I was always told that 10th Dan was a rank that was reserved as one of honor. GM Choi was given this rank after his death I was told. Traditionally KMA only went to 9th dan. I was even told why, but I forgot, that was soooooo long agoe.

[Hapkid0ist]

My question is, how many high ranking practitioners either promoted themselves, been promoted by someone who suddenly became a high rank holder or are even recognized by any serious or major organizations? In other words how many people out there who claim high rank actually earned it. One wonders.

[Pyro45]

Well, from my knoledge of KMA ,if someone was recognized as 10th Dan they would have to have about 57 Years of experience in the art. Around 54 of those years with a black belt. And those years would have to all be containing training and improving. Wich means If such a master began training when they were 20 then they could possibly be eligable for 10th Dan around the age of 77 if they had been training and improving over all those years. If they were one of the lucky few who began their training at the age of 5, wich few have and less have stuck with then they could hope for that rank around age 62.

I think that if someone has stuck with and continued to advance in their art for that many years then such a rank would not be outside of reason. At that point they should be such a complete expert and master of every intracacy of their art, not to mention at practicing it that they have learned and developed comprehensive information and understanding that few alive have.

If of course their training is and has been legit.

[klaasb]

Why 57 years?

After your 1st dan you jump federation a few times and within 4 to 5 years you are at least a 5th or 6th dan. At that point you start your own federation and jump from there to at least 9th dan but if you are really smart you let call people you doju (in Korean) and you are above all rank.
So becoming a 10th dan shouldn't take much longer than about 10 years I guess :)

[Pyro45]

Haha, My bad, I should have specified it would be about 57 years to do it the Legit way.

[JimH]

Some points from Klaasb's last:

How many 10th Degrees are there who are not heads of their own systems?
None as 10th degree is the rank of a founder.

How many have stayed under a teacher of higher rank and been actually awarded a 10th degree?

How many have stayed under a 10th degree and actually been awarded a 8th or 9th degree by them.

Some Masters and Grand Masters have never even been actually given a 4th or 5th degree,they began teaching and self promoted themselves over time.

What rank was Takeda?
From any reading I have done he was just issued a teaching rank and taught,as were most instructors of the time,his students who studied long enough were given teaching certificates,not ranks.

What was Choi's rank?
He had no official rank,nor a verifiable teaching certificate yet he became a founder.

What were the Ranks of any of the 10th degrees of Hapkido when they left study under Choi ,and who promoted them after that?
Many self promoted well over their given rank.

At what point in rank is a Master or GrandMaster allowed to take their own perspective of an art , add their views and start their own organization or Federation?
If they start their own Org/Fed should they take the 10th degree automatically?
or
Should they start their org/fed and still remain a student of some one of higher rank?

Starting your own style makes you a founder,but does not make you an automatic Tenth degree,your knowledge and promotion stopped when your training under a higher rank stopped.
From there your training and self experimentation take over but you are not officially ranked by a higher rank.

If a founders knowledge and promotion stopped at 3rd degree then they are 3rd dgerees not 10th degree founders,unless they found higher ranked people to say and attest to the fact that their material and technique are worthy of a higher rank and they are therefore award that rank.

example:A third degree in Hapkido,3rd degree in Tae kwon do,3rd degree in Jujitsu and 3rd dgeree in Aikido does not make a 12 degree.

Differences between students ,masters and Grand masters create problems as do politics,some stop training ,some create their own orgs/feds,others find other higher ranks to become students of,some do both of the last two.

If one wants a paper trail to their lineage then accept what has come before,because if you start to look and question you may not be happy with what you find.

Who knows what was before Takeda,was he the start of DRAJJ or was he in a long line of practioners that stretched back centuries?

Was Choi a student and actually given a Teaching certificate?

What were the current founders actual ranks when they left their teacher,Choi?

If we look too hard and are so pressed for facts we may find none exist and that we are studying a dream,something that is false in fact and self created,then you have a choice continue on or stop.

To Me:
Find a teacher,master or grandmaster and train,if you are learning what you want and it fills your needs that is all one can ask.

[CJ]

I know that I am going to get a lot of hate for this but.
This post is kind of silly really when you think about it. We all have to remember that there was a time when there was no rank this 10th dan stuff is really about ego and getting knew students. And not about training like it should be. And hapkido is not the only style that does this kind of thing.
So don't think that I am picking on you. I am not trust me.
I just think that people should spend more time training instead of worring about rank and what they "THINK" they are owed for training in an art.
The truth is you are not owe a thing. And if I remember right Mr. Seo was a member of kuk sool won and also was the brother or some kind of relation to Mr. Suh. So how can you be a 10th dan in hapkido if your background is in kuk sool won. Just a thought.

[Jointlock]

Actually their last name is In. In Sun-Seo and In Hyuk-Suh, they are brothers I believe. Koreans use their family name first when refering to each other. So technically their last name is first.

Otherwise on the topic at hand. I'm really not concerned with the rank of people that much. I usually treat people with very high respect when I first meet them. After I talk or train with them for a while then I decide how much their training is worth to me. I'll never be disrespectful to them, but there are some people that I respect more than others no matter what rank they hold.

[Thomas]

Actually their last name is In. In Sun-Seo and In Hyuk-Suh, they are brothers I believe. Koreans use their family name first when refering to each other. So technically their last name is first.

Actually the family name is Seo (Suh), they choose to Romanize it differently from each other though. "In" is the generational marker, which they would share with all brothers of that specific generation of that family, and "Sun" and "Hyuk" would be the unique names.

Normally in Korea it would be written Seo In-sun (서 인 선 ) and Suh In-hyuk, with family names first, but many western magazines and people tend to switch it around.

And if I remember right Mr. Seo was a member of kuk sool won and also was the brother or some kind of relation to Mr. Suh. So how can you be a 10th dan in hapkido if your background is in kuk sool won. Just a thought.
They are indeed brothers and GM In Sun Seo earned his 1st dan in 1958 from Choi Yong-sool (and his 3rd dan by 1961). In the 1960s he was a Kook Sool Won instructor, becoming chiefmaster by 1969. He later got involved with the Kido Hae and nowadays has set up his own association which is a loose alliance over different Hapkido groups and schools. (see http://www.kidohae.com/chairman.htm and http://www.hmjhapkido.or.kr/)

I don't have any experience with Kook Sool Won and don't know much about its history, but I believe they come from the same source and would imagine that GM In Sun Seo's Hapkido background and position as one of the main Kook Sool Won people for many years would probably have some influence.

[Jointlock]

Thanks for correcting me Thomas. Actually, I think I knew that before, it just made sense in my mind at the time I wrote the post.

[JimH]

In Sun Seo and his brother In Hyuk Suh were both students of Choi and they opened a couple of hapkido (only )schools prior to developing Kuk Sool Won.

The Lee Brothers of Hwarangdo also were Hapkido students prior to the development of Hwarangdo.