Rear choke defense

[Qdmasta]

I've done a little bit of research and haven't seen an excellent defense against a rear choke. I'm not talking about the one where two hands grab the neck, but the one where the attacker's bicep squeezes under the chin. It seems like all the ones I've seen involve some sort of striking (stepping on the attacker's foot, striking the groin, elbow to the solar plexus) in hopes that the attacker will release the grab. I've heard stories of people being choked out because they relied completely on striking because of the difficulty they had from releasing this hold due to the strength of the attacker. The andrenaline was flowing within the attacker and victim, so even though the victim attacked the groin area, it did not force him to release the grab because he was so high on andrenaline, or drugs, as the case may be. Other defenses I've seen involve the victim bending down towards the rear, grabbing the arm, and jerking it behind the attacker. This technique might not work all the time because if the attacker has some idea what he/she's doing (or just brutally strong), they can keep backing away from their victim all while keeping the hold and maintaing leverage. I also read that tucking your chin is supposed to work, but I haven't tried that. So, does anybody have a link to a video or can describe a good defense to this?

[Slindsay]

I know getting the chin down and the head twisted to one side or the other is important but beyond that I think your insuch a bad situation that to some extent you need to get lucky.

[Punchy]

Below are the methods that I know. They show defences against standing and seated chokes. If the choker is skilled you are in trouble but the attached are simple enough for most self defence situations. I hope this helps.

http://www.subfighter.com/article126

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/ch8.htm

[Punchy]

To add some further explanation. IMHO you should be trying to counter attack rather than just escape. To achieve this you should simultaneously be:-

- dropping your weight (if standing) to regain your balance;
- twisting into them (ie try to end up facing them more or less) to reduce their grip on your throat and neck and to put you in a better position to bite, gouge, headbut etc
- pulling their entrapping arm away by grabbing at their fingers, biting the arm
- grabbing/gouging/hitting and any of their vulnerable bite (eg testicles, eyes, toes, fingers etc)

Basically the guiding principle is to drop, turn into them and go for anything vulnerable like eyes, hair etc. As you are close biting is also a good option.

Don't try to do it in a locked sequence as one thing (eg twisting) may not work by itself. Try everything so that you are simultaneously twisting, dropping, gouging, punching etc.

The same principle applies for head locks and other close grappling.

Fight hard as it is not easy to get out. Don't panic if it does not cause a release straight off.

When free attack more or they will come at you again.

[tkdhkddave]

We experimented a little at our tkd class and found that once it's on it is too quick to counter and within a few seconds you would be choked out, bearing in mind we were fairly experienced in applying it, joe average might not be (hopefully) we were also limited in our defences as they had to be soft, cheeky or devious as no one wanted injuries and would not like a full force kick to the nuts, fingers thumbs to eyes etc, however you also have to ask yourself should it be applied to you and the attacker may likely be on a adrenalin rush would he be able to ride you punches gouches etc, in some cases I have seen and heard this can be true, I.E a guy taking 3 massive kicks to the groin from a good friend of mine who is a very good kicker.

we also found this to be true at hkd class, and that the best solution was either avoidance or escape whilst or before it's applied. any time after I would not fancy my chances and would only hope I didn't get a kicking when the lights go out.

[sliver]

Great question and I'm glad someone asked this, as choke holds are far more common than one might think. Even if someone isn't particularly great at applying it, they likely can put you out with enough time. Also choking and headlocking are fairly instinctive for most people.

Whenver defending against a choke a few things must be kept in mind. The absoloute first thing to do is to force them to loosen that choke, so you don't go unconcious. This relies partially on awareness. As you feel an arm begin to snake around your neck, drop your chin to prevent them from getting a good arm position on your neck, and grab their arm with both hands to prevent them from locking that choke in. Yes, you're useing two hands to control one, but you need to! Having double the arms on the job doubles the strength applied to preventing your attacker from chinching that choke down. Make sure you have one hand on their wrist and the other on the crook of their elbow, giving you as good control and leverage as you can get on the would be choking arm. The grip is really the first line of defense as it prevents them from sending you to the land of nod. Now, as you grab the arm, lower your level and get your hips below theirs. You don't need to drop to the floor or anything (that wouldn't be a good idea) just get your center of gravity lower than theirs is. A note here, don't drop to a deep horse stance, as it doesn't work with this technique. Keep your feet about shoulder width appart and bend at the knees to lower your center. If you've prevented them from choking you out, this will be rather dificult for them to prevent. Pull thier choking arm tight against your chest, and snap your hips up, while sending your upper body forward (as though you were bowing). Done quickly this will send your attacker over your back, feet in the air in a rather spectacular looking throw. Done properly they should land right in front of you with you still holding their arm and in a very dominant position to continue the fight or run away.

All the above being as it is, if you're asleep at the wheel, and your attacker chiches the choke in and arches their back to break your balance and increase their leverage, you're prety much sunk. You may be able to peel their hand off and execute the above technique before they put you out, but it's a crap shoot at best. Pay attention and start the defense right away when you feel the choke comming. Practice it on the mats untill the throw is a natural reaction to someone trying to choke you from behind. Be well all.

[Rebel Wado]

Below are the methods that I know. They show defences against standing and seated chokes. If the choker is skilled you are in trouble but the attached are simple enough for most self defence situations. I hope this helps.

http://www.subfighter.com/article126

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/ch8.htm

The second defense (8-1b) shown in http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/ch8.htm is the one that I primarily teach.

Here is the text:

b. Standing Rear Naked Pulling Back (Figure 8-2). If, when you hang your weight on the enemy's arm, you feel that he is pulling you back over one of his legs, you should reach back with your leg and wrap it around the outside of the enemy's leg on the same side as the choking arm. As he tires from holding you up, use your leg as a guide and work your way around to the position shown. Your leg must be behind his, and you must be leaning forward, controlling his arm. Twisting your body, throw him to the ground.

Please look at the pictures, the above text from that web site is very misleading.

In the first picture you will SEE that the attacker's arm is NOT grabbed. You can tell this because the defender's thumbs are not wrapped around the attacker's arm. This is not evident in the text but it is proper technique.

The text also says to hang your weight on the arm. Yes true but missing a very important piece of technique. The technique is to pin the attacker's arm to your chest if you can. This is achieved by using your palms in an almost slapping action as you collapse your weight down and drop your chin down slightly to the side. The way I have students practice this move is by having the attacker use a training knife. So when the arm reaches around to choke it is actually a knife to the throat. The defender pins the arm to the chest so that the arm and wrist are immobilized, preventing the ability for the attacker to slit the defender's throat. Same pinning technique can be used for either rear naked choke or for knife to throat from behind.

Okay, the text goes on about the leg hook and turning around. The pictures are much better at showing this. What the text should have said was that you TURN YOUR HIPS AS IF TRYING TO ROTATE YOUR BELT BUCKLE TOWARDS THE ATTACKER. The focus is on the hips turning around so that you face your opponent. You can leg hook all you want and rotate your upper body all you want, and it won't work unless you focus your turning at the hips.

In addition, some mention should be made to take short shallow breaths. If you are getting choked out, the timing of these breaths can aid in pumping more blood through your restricted arteries. This, with practice can buy you some time.

And if you are completely over powered, do the above, but turn the hips slower as you hold out with the chin down and short shallow breaths, and pray that the attacker gets tired, then you got him.

Okay, now go out and practice with people that like you a lot that know this technique.

Got it?

[tekkengod]

you are much better off trying to counter-attack and do everything in your power to STOP it from being applied, yeah its possible to get out, but an RNC is one of those things that are just designed to end the conflict. lots of luck involved, because the pain threashold of the person applying the choke will vary, but the amount of time which brain can remain devoid of a sufficent oxygen supply will not.

"once its on, its on"-Big John McCarthy

[Rebel Wado]

you are much better off trying to counter-attack and do everything in your power to STOP it from being applied, yeah its possible to get out, but an RNC is one of those things that are just designed to end the conflict. lots of luck involved, because the pain threashold of the person applying the choke will vary, but the amount of time which brain can remain devoid of a sufficent oxygen supply will not.

"once its on, its on"-Big John McCarthy

Ordinarily I would agree with your statement in general, but this is the self-defense section of the forum. People don't need general statements as much as they need specific information to the point whenever possible.

What I say is not directed at you tekkengod, but just at the idea of general information verse detailed information.

General statements are too open to interpretation when it comes to self-defense, IMO. Anyone can make a general statement and the reader won't have a clue whether the person is talking BS or real practical application. But specific detailed information gives something to critique and ask questions about and learn from it. Detailed information will either show that someone doesn't know what the heck they are talking about (because they either can't give the real world details or they completely give wrong details) or it can be from someone in the know and thus can address an issue to the point.

For instance, here is some detailed information (either I know what I'm talking about or it is total BS, but I hopefully give you enough information for you to judge that for yourself):

Assuming the worst, the attacker has your back from surprise. An arm comes around your neck, YOU DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS A CHOKE OR A NECK BREAKER OR A KNIFE OR A WIRE/ROPE.

This is a case that one does not have enough information to properly assess the threat of the attack. You need to react in a manner that protects you from the immediate threat which could be a choke, a neck break, a knife or some other weapon. Neutralize the threat as best you can (do what is best for you) until you can assess the threat appropriately. If the threat is not much or neutralized, then attack and destroy the attacker (do what is worst for them).

[tekkengod]

indeed they do, that was a good point.
but just to elaborate, if you feel hands grip and prime for a neck break, or the touch of wire to your throat and your take 3/4s of a second to think about what you should do....HEADS UP! your about to die!!!

[TheCount]

If it is a single arm choke from behind the back here is what you can do.

Nuggle your chin into the elbow pit, this allows you to breath a bit. Grab the wrist and elbow then swing round with the hips, stepping back your leg while pulling the wrist and pushing the elbow. You can strait away turn it into a police lock if you will.

[Matt_Bernius]

One thing to keep in mind with any choke is that you need to be concerned about blood supply then air supply. You can be KO'd while still breathing if blood is cut off the the brain. So the first step in any choke defense is either to prevent the choke from being set in or immediately create space for air and blood flow. If you don't do that you will not last long at all.

- Matt

[Punchy]

I have posted the same question about escapes from RNC in the Ju-Jitsu forum. Have a look at their comments.

[oldshadow]

My experience with getting out of a RNC is as follows.
You need to get your chin down to so your throat is not taking most of the pressure. If they get on your throat your time is very short and once it’s locked it’s over. Even if your get your chin down if the person applying the RNC is skilled and strong there is a good chance they will dislocate your jaw. I have had this happen twice when trying to ride out a RNC. If you can keep pressure off your neck then what a lot of people miss is that you must attack the locking arm first not the chocking arm. If the right arm is around the neck and up onto the bicep of the left arm you need to get the left arm out and try to get it straight enough to get the right arm unlocked. Once you get the choking arm losing up you can then perform various techniques to reverse the situation. If you try to throw the attacker over your shoulder/back (Ippon Seoinage) and they sill have the RNC locked there is a chance they will do what I teach. That is to lock down on the RNC and if you find you are being thrown then go with it and twist as you go over.
Warring this can do serious damage to the person executing the throw as it puts a lot of pressure on their neck. In fact I had a NHB fighter end a fight this way. When he was thrown he acted as he was taught and at first it scared him that he had broken his opponents neck on the reversal so he eased up on the choke but the guy was only stunned and started to come around, the ref didn’t stop it so he tightened on the choke and the guy taped out. The guy did have a very sore neck but I didn’t hear of any permanent damage.
This is what I have found anyway.
Also any way you could damage your attacker/opponent will always help as long as the eye gouge is not the only thing you are counting on to get out of a RNC.

[Jamesy]

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005NMYF/qid%3D1121293357/026-4639840-7938862

[nForce]

With both hands grab there arm and try and took your chin in to relive pressure

Then put your left leg behind there right, bend down, pick up and slam!

[tekkengod]

you'll find that to be alot easier said than done, assuming they've got the choke on, you would have to be insanely strong to just pull their arm back enough to get you chin down. your best hope is that they do a piss poor execution and their non choking arm is just dangling behind your head, you can try and pull it around the back of your head and circle out. but thats a big IF.

[Davey Bones]

Tekken, this is the self-defense forum. Can you perhaps contribute something? You do MMA, how does your school teach you to deal with it? I'm fairly certain you're not taught to just roll over and accept defeat at the hands of an RNC.

And by the way, you have 7 seconds if it's a good choke. So you better be able to do it in 4.

[oldshadow]

^^^^ Big If!
Here is an even better if. If you want to find out if the technique you know or have been taught will break a RNC or if any other self-defense technique will work for real then the only way I know is to try it with total resistance. I have had a number of people come to me and say “Oh I know how to get out of that my instructor showed me, it’s easy” very few of them made it work.

[oldshadow]

Tekken, this is the self-defense forum. Can you perhaps contribute something? You do MMA, how does your school teach you to deal with it? I'm fairly certain you're not taught to just roll over and accept defeat at the hands of an RNC.

And by the way, you have 7 seconds if it's a good choke. So you better be able to do it in 4.

I have my students work on trying to get out of RNC’s.
Here are some tips to go with what I suggested before, if anyone has any more please post them as I am always looking to improve my techniques.

Escape/reversal of an RNC first depends on the skill of the person applying it. As their skill goes up your chances go down fast. This also applies to the skill of the person defending.

First is chin down and don’t let them lock it if possible. In other words as stated don’t let them get to a staple position so they can maximize the effect of the RNC if possible. You need to have the pressure off your neck. To give you time to work. Some like to get one hand in so the choke cannot be applied effetely. This was taught heavily when I was young and still serves the purpose of limiting the coke but does tie up one of your hands, which reduces your strength to work on breaking the coke. It also requires you to see it coming and works only if the choke is started wide. The idea is to get one of your hands in with your palm against your cheek to keep the pressure off your neck.

If they do get the RNC locked but you gotten your chin down as you practiced 100’s and 100’s of times. You now have a little time to work. Try to stay on your feet as this gives you a better chance of getting out. Attack the locking arm not the arm around your neck. That arm is on your chin so it is taken care of for now. One thing, if the person applying the RNC is strong you will have to take the pain as they crush down on your chin. They can dislocate your jaw. You must get to work on that locking arm fast as they will work to raise your head and set the choke. Pull the locking arm over and try to get it straighten it as much as you can. You will have to get the locking arm set so you can keep it relativity straight with one hand so you will have the other hand to attack the choking arm. Attack the choking arm and get some room to work. I have seen and used an attack to the locking arm where you pass it under your arm and set a arm lock but you need some skill and strength to make it work. Any way if you are still on your feet and you have loosening the choke. Here is one thing I like to do once I get a little room. Twist your body toward the open side of the choke. Use your hips to help you make the movement. Your forehead if possible should be in their chest but anyway you should be chest to belly/chest. With your arms around their body step around and trip and take the person down. Remember to get your hands/arms out before you hit ground. Hopefully you will end up in position to go to a top mount right away. Cross face to break their hold on you, set position on the top mount and go for something. Me I like lots of elbows to the face.

If you end up being taken down when the RNC is applied you can basically perform the above but, now you have the added disadvantage of them setting their hooks or worse a body triangle, which will really make thing hard on you.

As stated more then one time. The best thing is to prevent access to your back.

By the way I have use the RNC a few time in a club I worked and once it was set I could put them out in less then 10 seconds for the most part.

I hope this helps a little. I hope others post other ways of working this. I love to try different thing.

[Davey Bones]

That technique sounds VERY familiar, oldtimer. I am 99% certain that's the one we use.

And I agree with you 100%, you MUST work this with resistance. Period. I always tell my partners to really hold me (having Sifu do that is no problem, he gets an odd sense of glee at coming up behind a student and trying to choke em out, which is fine with me. I like the resistance, and that's his point). I almost ended up with a bloody nose at my last grading because my opponent really took hold. But that's how I want to train these. If you can't do it in class, you ain't gonna do it in real life.

I also want to add this:

We have to keep in mind we have two levels of RNCs. The "street fighter" who may be good, but let's face it, the second one, AKA the "trained grappler" is going to be a lot better at reversals, etc. That's where I'd really worry. Most people with no training don't realize that the RNC is deceptively difficult to apply properly.

[oldshadow]

We have to keep in mind we have two levels of RNCs. The "street fighter" who may be good, but let's face it, the second one, AKA the "trained grappler" is going to be a lot better at reversals, etc. That's where I'd really worry. Most people with no training don't realize that the RNC is deceptively difficult to apply properly.

This is true the set up and application of a good RNC looks easy but it’s the little things you need to do that make it very fast and locked in right.

[nForce]

i still go for the slam :) depending on how strong you are and how big the other person is you could do it quite effectively and quickly, 4 secs is probably feasible if you were trained

[oldshadow]

i still go for the slam :) depending on how strong you are and how big the other person is you could do it quite effectively and quickly, 4 secs is probably feasible if you were trained

Are you talking about a Ippon Seoinage?
If so go for it but be aware you are best to drop to one knee to minimize the damage if they counter by locking on and going with the throw. As I said if you like that counter go for it.

[tekkengod]

Tekken, this is the self-defense forum. Can you perhaps contribute something? You do MMA, how does your school teach you to deal with it? I'm fairly certain you're not taught to just roll over and accept defeat at the hands of an RNC

I thought i just did that? twice actually.

The basics are always in effect, struggle to get the hands down and tuck your chin inwards, turn your head sideways, a shoulder throw if possible. or the one i mentioned before.