Interesting Silat

[RedBagani]

Is there anyone here who is familiar with Silat Tomoi found in Northern Malaysia? I think it is interesting because I heard it contains features of both Silat and Muay Thai. I think the style is also called Toi-Muay.

[amirul_tekpi79]

Peace to all,

Dear Redbagani,

In Peninsula Malaysia, especially the northern and east coast states (Kedah, Perlis, Penang, Perak, Kelantan and Terengganu), the Siamese art of Muay Thai is known as Tomoi. In those said states, there are numerous Tomoi practice centers that produced and still producing Muay Thai/Tomoi champions, especially in the domestic circuit.

However, there are also Silat styles that incorporates Tomoi in their repertoire/training. Most notables among them are

1) Silat Spelet Tomoi
2) Silat Gayong,Kuntau Jawa & Tomoi (yes, that is the name of the silat style and yes they do teach all three styles of martial arts)

Silat Spelet Tomoi can be found in the state of Perak while Silat Gayong, Kuntau Jawa & Tomoi is located in Kedah. Both of these silat styles have been featured in Malaysia's martial art magazine 'Seni Beladiri'.

Peace

[soulguru]

Peace to all,

Dear Redbagani,

In Peninsula Malaysia, especially the northern and east coast states (Kedah, Perlis, Penang, Perak, Kelantan and Terengganu), the Siamese art of Muay Thai is known as Tomoi. In those said states, there are numerous Tomoi practice centers that produced and still producing Muay Thai/Tomoi champions, especially in the domestic circuit.

However, there are also Silat styles that incorporates Tomoi in their repertoire/training. Most notables among them are

1) Silat Spelet Tomoi
2) Silat Gayong,Kuntau Jawa & Tomoi (yes, that is the name of the silat style and yes they do teach all three styles of martial arts)

Silat Spelet Tomoi can be found in the state of Perak while Silat Gayong, Kuntau Jawa & Tomoi is located in Kedah. Both of these silat styles have been featured in Malaysia's martial art magazine 'Seni Beladiri'.

Peace


very intersting piece, amirulp- totally interestng indeed... i'd like to see how they do their practicing especially with the Silat Gayong,Kuntau Jawa & Tomoi... :)

[amirul_tekpi79]

Peace to all,

Dear Soulguru,

I am working in Kuala Lumpur, but my hometown is Alor Setar, the state capital of Kedah.

Silat Gayong,Kuntau Jawa & Tomoi is well known in Kedah and if i'm not mistaken, also in several other states.

I'm also fascinated to know how they teach the three, meaning whether the styles are taught together by mixing them or taught separately and letting the students choose the one that are suitable for them.

I'll have to find that Seni Beladiri magazine and reread it. I'll let you know if there's any interesting facts to be shared.

Peace

[RedBagani]

I hope we can get more information about this very interesting art. I have heard that some Malaysians regard Tomoi as a form of Silat. But national boundaries are just political boundaries and do not really represent cultural delineations. Tomoi could be just as much Malay as it is Thai. I think the Malaysian hero, Hang Tuah, ccame from the Riau islands halfway between Malaya and Sumatra. Hang Tuah is probably just as much Malaysian as he is Indonesian. I hope I am not muddling the topic. I am not really interested in establishing the national identity of Tomoi. I simply want to understand the techniques, culture and history of the art. Are the people who practise Tomoi mostly Buddhist or Muslims?

[amirul_tekpi79]

Peace to all,

If i'm not mistaken, in Malaysia and southern Thailand, the Tomoi practioners are mostly muslims.

I've heard somewhere that some old silat teachers, especially in the northern peninsula believed that Tomoi and Silat are intertwined. I don't know how truthful this statement is but it would be logical to say that somehow Silat influenced Tomoi and Tomoi influenced Silat due to the geographical and historical background of both Malays and Siamese/Thai people. Can the same be said with the art of Bando in Myanmar/Burma?

I think it would be better for us to discuss in what way the two martial arts influencedeach other rather than trying to figure out how the influences came about.

However, i'm not a Tomoi practioner so i cannot go that far on the matter.

Have a nice and lively discussion guys.

Peace

[soulguru]

Peace to all,

If i'm not mistaken, in Malaysia and southern Thailand, the Tomoi practioners are mostly muslims.

I've heard somewhere that some old silat teachers, especially in the northern peninsula believed that Tomoi and Silat are intertwined. I don't know how truthful this statement is but it would be logical to say that somehow Silat influenced Tomoi and Tomoi influenced Silat due to the geographical and historical background of both Malays and Siamese/Thai people. Can the same be said with the art of Bando in Myanmar/Burma?

I think it would be better for us to discuss in what way the two martial arts influencedeach other rather than trying to figure out how the influences came about.

However, i'm not a Tomoi practioner so i cannot go that far on the matter.

Have a nice and lively discussion guys.

Peace

i believe there definitely was an overlapping of influences vis a vis the styles. suffice it to say, its best for all of us to check how they assimilated the best methods of both styles, and transformed into a formidable art. as it is, silat has its own repertiore of kicks; combining these with a Muaythai influence can simply be devastating...

[keith.w]

I've trained in Thai boxing both traditional and modern equivilants as well as Silat. There are a lot of similarities between the traditional and silat styles. In my personal view and from info i've gathered from other sources i believe that Thai boxing was birthed out of Old Silat. A friend of mine while training in Thailand with some old masters was practicing some Silat and the old guys recognised it as Kuchin. They said that it was in the ancient Thai arts but is now lost.
Another clue as to the origin is if you look at the opening Thai cerimony before a fight, very similar to Harimau Mencari. There are also similarities with Monyet ie. the jumping elbows to the top of the head. and Kura Kura's shell like protection.
All these other Silat styles evolved from Kuchin and if the old guys in Thailand were right so did Thai boxing so really it can almost be seen as a style of Silat.

[RedBagani]

Is there a connection between the Bunga, or Flower Dance, of Silat and the Ram Muay or Wai Kru of Muay Thai? If so, what is this link? What symbolisims, meanings do these two arts share? By the way, is Malaysian Silat really called Bersilat by the Malaysians, or is simply called Silat? From my understanding, bersilat means "To Do Silat" and the art itself is called Silat, not Bersilat. Correct me if I am wrong.

[keith.w]

I think the Kembungan, flower dance, and the Mauy Thai ceremonys are related in a sort of way.
The Kembaungan is there for many reasons.
1 to align the body and postures so that at any given moment in time the body is optimumly protected.
2 to create a link to the creator or to mother earth (whichever your beliefs are) so that you can grow internally aswell as becoming more proficient. There are many other reasons aswell.
The Mauy Thai opening ceremony is now realy there to honour traditions of old but as I see it would have been used to get into the zone ready for the fight much like the trance like state of Kembungan.

Another symbolism are the feet. Most Silat practitioners know that the key to Silat is in the feet. They tell you a lot and enable you to do every thing. If you look at the blocking of kicks in Thai its almost the same as silat but with Thai the toes point down. But if you look at the ceremonies they mimic these blocks but he toes are pointing up silat style. This corrects the alignment and also has many technichal advances.

Started to waffle a bit..

[Kiai Carita]

[QUOTE=keith.w]I think the Kembungan, flower dance, and the Mauy Thai ceremonys are related in a sort of way.
The Kembaungan is there for many reasons.
The Mauy Thai opening ceremony is now realy there to honour traditions of old but as I see it would have been used to get into the zone ready for the fight much like the trance like state of Kembungan.
QUOTE]

Fellow pesilat, the correct name and spelling for our flower dance is kembangan, from the word kembang which means flower. The word kembung means to be bloated with liquid like one would be after six pints of lager.

Hormat,
Kiai Carita.

[Kiai Carita]

Is there a connection between the Bunga, or Flower Dance, of Silat and the Ram Muay or Wai Kru of Muay Thai? If so, what is this link? What symbolisims, meanings do these two arts share? By the way, is Malaysian Silat really called Bersilat by the Malaysians, or is simply called Silat? From my understanding, bersilat means "To Do Silat" and the art itself is called Silat, not Bersilat. Correct me if I am wrong.

The prefix ber in the word bersilat creates the meaning to do silat. The art itself is currently called silat. However, a couple of hundred years back the arts now called silat had many different regional names.

Hormat,
Kiai Carita.

[soulguru]

ey, i see things are heating up here; very good info/contributions from all. welcome keith w.- its nice to have a fellow brother in the arts who's very erudite where silat/south east asian arts are concerned.

Kiai Carita, if ever you'd be visiting manila, it would be nice to discuss silat stuff in-depth given your deep understanding of Indonesian/malaysian styles. i'd love to see the similarities/nuances shared with the Art i know...

REdbagani! hola brother; i enjoyed the demos. i sure hope your Rapid friends were enlightend with the Silat-Kuntaw stuff i showed; its about time they understand that true pinoy Silat still is alive and definitely kicking in South Philippines, ehehe... next time, i wont forget my barong...

[Kiai Carita]

[QUOTE=soulguru]
Kiai Carita, if ever you'd be visiting manila, it would be nice to discuss silat stuff in-depth given your deep understanding of Indonesian/malaysian styles.

Carefull here soulguru, don't be hasty and imagine I have in depth knowledge of Indonesia and Malaysian silat or any silat for that matter. I am a poet not a pendekar. I do not generally do fisticuffs. I do not spar. Instead I do various meditations and breathing excercises. However, recently, fired up by the spirited pesilat in this forum I have begun to physically train more. Thank you all for this.

As for visiting Manila, hm, I would love to do that. Would have to wait for an invitation and a ticket though. Back in my village in Jawa I have been creating an alchemy NGO to transform **** into gold, to find different ways of generating income than using GM seed and high chemical input agriculture - which is what all the sawah in Jawa has been subjected to since the early 1970's. The government introduced the new seeds and the whole wet-rice based culture of Jawa was thrown never to revive. Not only silat but all other traditional arts and ways of life were changed for ever by the new rice seeds and the financial world that entered the villages with it.

I feel it is the biggest problem in my village, where now all young people leave to find work in the cities or over-seas, like me, because our village cannot produce enough money for all the banks and big businesses that support the genetic and petrochemical industry. I know there are NGOs in the Phillipines (wrong spelling?- if so, sorry) so I will be networking in that side of the world in the future. Maybe in a year or two.

Anyway, sorry all for rambling against GM food in this silat forum, but I do bear witness that it has and is continuing to kill the culture where silat was born and nurtured. After speaking to several pesilat I am now convinced that silat practise should be part of the alchemical process to transform the **** in my village to become gold.

Hormat,
Kiai Carita.

[amirul_tekpi79]

Peace to all,

Dear Kiai Carita,
A poet?? Warrior poet maybe? ;)

Dear Redbagani,
'Bersilat' is to do silat. Same as 'bermain'-to play, 'bertumbuk'-to punch, 'berjalan'-to walk, etc.

Dear keith.w,
I've also heard the same thing where 'an ancient' silat style (some say from Champa) brought about the art of Tomoi/Muay Thai.

Peace

[RedBagani]

I've trained in Thai boxing both traditional and modern equivilants as well as Silat. There are a lot of similarities between the traditional and silat styles. In my personal view and from info i've gathered from other sources i believe that Thai boxing was birthed out of Old Silat. A friend of mine while training in Thailand with some old masters was practicing some Silat and the old guys recognised it as Kuchin. They said that it was in the ancient Thai arts but is now lost.
Another clue as to the origin is if you look at the opening Thai cerimony before a fight, very similar to Harimau Mencari. There are also similarities with Monyet ie. the jumping elbows to the top of the head. and Kura Kura's shell like protection.
All these other Silat styles evolved from Kuchin and if the old guys in Thailand were right so did Thai boxing so really it can almost be seen as a style of Silat.
I find the idea of ALL Silat styles evolving from Kuchin rather far-fetched, just as the idea that ALL Muay Thai styles came from it. Anyway, it is a theory that can't be proved or disproved at the moment. The reason I find it farfetched is because in Muay Thai, for example, there were several styles or schools such as the Northern and Southern schools. I think in Southern Thailand, there is a school of Muay Thai called Chaiya. What particular styles of Muay Thai were you refering to? Which of these schools incorporated the Ram Muay? I was told that originally, not all styles of Muay Thai used the Ram Muay. If those styles of Muay Thai that traditionally incorporated Ram Muay are found to be from the Southern states, then it is possible that there is a direct link between Muay Thai and Malayan Silat.

[soulguru]

[QUOTE=soulguru]
...Carefull here soulguru, don't be hasty and imagine I have in depth knowledge of Indonesia and Malaysian silat or any silat for that matter. I am a poet not a pendekar. I do not generally do fisticuffs. I do not spar. Instead I do various meditations and breathing excercises. However, recently, fired up by the spirited pesilat in this forum I have begun to physically train more. Thank you all for this.

As for visiting Manila, hm, I would love to do that. Would have to wait for an invitation and a ticket though... Kiai Carita.

no problem kiai, your historical insights on Silat as well as cultural knowledge from your end of SouthEast Asia will definitely be great mind-matter- 'food for thought' so to speak... assisted with lots of hot "kawah" of the brewed variety.

info with historical twists has always been very scintillating to me- what more if its about Southeast asia and its vast wealth of data on the arts, culture, peoples, etc... :)

[Kiai Carita]

[QUOTE=soulguru][QUOTE=Kiai Carita]

no problem kiai, your historical insights on Silat as well as cultural knowledge from your end of SouthEast Asia will definitely be great mind-matter- 'food for thought' so to speak... assisted with lots of hot "kawah" of the brewed variety.
QUOTE]

What is the 'kawah' you mean? In Indonesia kawah means a) an active volcano crater, b) the waters that break before a birth. I guess you mean 'kava' the Polinesian intoxicating drink made by having virgins chew the root of the kava plant and spit the juice out. This spit is fermented and served in festivals and ceremonies and reportedly gives a pleasant drunkenness.

As you say, silat is a very wide subject as is Indonesia. People spend life times studying the surface of just one aspect of life there. What I see I can contribute to the 'New World' of silat is mainly information on the use of language and the cultural context because I grew up in Jawa and I have been studying the cultures of my country.

Some things I have been thinking about:

Silat in the 'New World' has developed its own language and values. For example in some of the 'New World' silat that originates from Jawa demonstrates the kujang and the keris and uses Dutch spelling, tj for c, oe for u, and so on. I have seen on the web these demonstrations also done by Indonesian's - maybe for the Westerner's benefit?- I don't know. In Indonesia / West Jawa people at present do not recognise any individual as the Grand Master of Cimande, however, on the web, the presentations of the experiences of Western pendekar who studied there might appear that there is a Grand Master of the Cimande system somwhere out there. The term ilmu which means science is mystified to mean some sort of esoteric knowledge. And so on, and so forth.

Hormat.
Kiai Carita

[soulguru]

hmmm... i may have misspelled 'kawah'; its supposed to be 'qawah'. thn again, lets just have coffee. as per your new post, this is exactly what i have in mind; discussing the way of life that Silat brings to the individual- from its Martial/Combat aspects down to its intense spiritual level. and as i mentioned in my previous post, how the Art can be the conduit to being "one" with the Universe...

peace... =)

[bunkeye]

I am writing jsut for the sake of continuing this forum.

It is interesting to see there is a possible link between muay thai and silat. But isn't there a saying all martial arts come from one source?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

just to butt in, but im pretty sure that the ram muay in muay thai comes more from fighters stretching before the fight and evolved from there into a ritual

it wouldnt be surprising if they are intertwined, that whole region was rife with war a lot of the time so its only natural that they developed their martial arts in similar ways

[Silatyogi]

The Thai wai kru is actually a Buddhist dance for spiritual protection, offering to the 4 noble guests (Gods, Gurus & protectors, Those you owe karmic debts to & your family). It serves as a blessing and it pays homage to the 4 corners of the Earth realm. It actually orginates from Bon Po (tibet's oldest spiritual tradition).



-Silat Yogi