KSW: To easy to gain belts?

[rex00]

Hi,

I dont know if this is the same with every school but at mine once you learn enough techniques and the form its basically imposible to fail the testings, its emmbarasing to see some of the brown belts try and run and do basic kicks, some of the black belts are pretty useless as well. I cant speak for all kuk sool won schools but i think it brings our art down a lot by letting people who obiously dont "try" in classes reach black belt level. so i just wanted to know if this is the same at other school and how you feel about it.

[ember]

We're generally not allowed to test until the instructors think we can pass.

As for the rest, everybody is different. Everyone has different abilities and different interests, and they come to their art for different reasons. And everyone I've seen at the black belt level does know their material, and can do it competently.

I have seen standards, though tailored to age & ability. One of my training partners has had several mini-strokes, so that just memorizing a set of techniques *is* a major accomplishment. I, on the other hand, learn fast and tend to pick things up easily - and in response they expect more detail out of me.

I've seen a 9-year-old black belt, who can do ~17 backflips in a row, a ~60 year old JKN who is happy with that level of accomplishment and has no intention of testing for KSN, and any number of people at various ages who can and have won championships.

People come in different shapes, sizes, and fitness levels too. Another of my classmates seems to have some illness, he has a hard time making it through an entire advanced class. He's encouraged to do what he can, but when he needs to stop he stops.

Perhaps you need to consider what these people are working with. Or perhaps just focus on doing *your* best - no more, no less.

Hi,

I dont know if this is the same with every school but at mine once you learn enough techniques and the form its basically imposible to fail the testings, its emmbarasing to see some of the brown belts try and run and do basic kicks, some of the black belts are pretty useless as well. I cant speak for all kuk sool won schools but i think it brings our art down a lot by letting people who obiously dont "try" in classes reach black belt level. so i just wanted to know if this is the same at other school and how you feel about it.

[rex00]

I know that some people have disadvantages and i respect them for comming to class, and getting on with life rather than just giving up. But in my post i was refering to people that just dont bother trying in class. people who make up really bad excuses e.g "my toe hurts this week i cant do press ups or any thing remotely hard", and they have a different injury on there toe every week. Plus theres some people who just cant be bothered to give everything there best, but then when it comes to learning techniques they make amazing recovories and can learn 2 techniques and half there next form then they garde the next week. The people who think its a race to get to black belt, they make kuk sool won look bad and i think they should make the testings much harder to pass, while keeping in mind that some people have disabilities that should be considered when there testing.

[baubin2]

Hmmm.... in my (admittedly limited) experience, the slackers at our school just drop out before they get to black belt. And the black belts at our school are all very competent. However, I do think you have a point in that the testing format does seem to allow people to get away with just learning the basics and going through the motions. I've been through two gradings so far, and definitely it wasn't at all hard to pass so long as you knew the motions of the techniques and the forms. Like I said though, slackers generally drop out on their own. And ember also has a good point: if someone is not ready to reach black belt, then the instructors will generally realize this and not allow the student to test.

I actually think that this is the reason that KSW students spend so long at the brown-belt level. Shoddy students thrive on the illusion of motion given by belt promotions amd if you take that away from them, then not only do they not progress in terms of skill, but they also do not progress in terms of belt level. Usually this is enough to make this sort of student just go away. When I practice techniques, I get bored really quickly if my partner just taps out automatically and if we're not working to improve our performance; usually this sort of practice ends with us drifting off into conversation or finding something else to do. Bad students who reach brown belt level probably feel much the same way. Without progression, they drift off.

[TXKukSoolBB]

Don't let a few "less than stellar" students taint your image of KSW. For every not so great student (effort related aka poor etiquette) I will show you 20 who have great etiquette and spirit. There is nothing more exciting as an instructor that to have a beginning student who just "goes through the motions" until they see it longer is enough to progress. The ALL will hit that at some point. Then they either come around on the effort bandwagon, or they leave. I'm sure each of you can think of several people in school (not KSW) that made A's and B's with very little effort. That is life. Bad etiquette and bad training habits will always catch up with those who employ them. My advice (I'm just one life student speaking here) is to continue to be a positive role model for these folks. Even if they are BB's. They will not bring down the art...it is impossible. However, they can bring it down for you if you let it. Please don't. KSW has way too much to offer for those individuals who make the committment to be the best that "they can be." Keep you head up and focused on your improvement...the heck with those others. I'm glad you brought up this subject. Hopefully it will fuel your training. Seeing those who slack off actually gets me fired up to train even harder! Lead by example, lead by example, and lead by example.

Keep training hard!!!

[AZeitung]

They do tend to go really easy at gradings at my school, up to brown belt. That is a little bit disappointing, but I think if you look at most martial arts, even if it's harder to get from one belt to another, I don't think the quality of students is any better. I've had experience grading in Shotokan Karate when I was little, and am currently taking Shorei Ryu Karate. They tend to nitpick on little details, like at what angle your toes are in your horse stance, or exactly how high your chamber is before you punch. On the whole, however, the actual ability of the students doesn't have to be that great. In Kuk Sool, I'd say that the students, at least in my school, are on the whole, more capable of applying what they learn, even if sometimes they're allowed to pass gradings if they're a bit sloppy.

For example, Shorei Ryu Karate includes some joint locks. As a white belt you have to know two that are basically Sohn Maek Soo 2 and Sohn Maek Soo 11 (and Sohm Pae Gi #1). The brown belt that showed me these techniques wasn't even capable of getting me to feel the lock. Admittedly, I'm fairly strong, and not easy to do techniques on, but even the people that I would consider relatively poor students at my school were capable of doing much better (part of it is the fact that they do the technique in a slightly different, but IMO less effective way. When I grabbed the brown belt's wrist, she told me that my grip would make the lock less effective, when in reality it works far better, as evidenced by the fact that it took almost no effort to make her tap my way, but required considerably more pressure to get her to tap when I did it their way).

[rex00]

I did Shotokan Karate for a few years as well and in there gradings and only about 75% of people passed and we had to have been on a belt a certain nu,ber of months till we could grade. But i KSW i have known people to go up 3 belts in 4 months which shoundt happen, i just think that if people see a KSW display with some people who have rubbish technique, stances ect. they will think everyone in KSW is like that and think less of our art.

[baubin2]

I did Shotokan Karate for a few years as well and in there gradings and only about 75% of people passed and we had to have been on a belt a certain nu,ber of months till we could grade. But i KSW i have known people to go up 3 belts in 4 months which shoundt happen, i just think that if people see a KSW display with some people who have rubbish technique, stances ect. they will think everyone in KSW is like that and think less of our art.
You're kidding! Over here you're only allowed to progress by ONE belt rank every four months, and brown belts usually stay there for at least 15-16 months, if not far longer. The average length of time before reaching blackbelt is about 4 years. So I really hope you're exaggerating, b/c if this is true, it really isn't reassuring.

[rex00]

this is the only time ive seen it happen but this person decided he would go to class 4 times a week so he went in for about 3 testings in a row, which i dont know how he managed as your suposed to have to leave at least one testing in between.

[ember]

I have seen people test multiple months in a row, even though you're supposed to wait one in between. The first two times I saw it, the students had missed a test and this put them back on their normal every-other-month track. The third time was one of the same students, and a witness says she was ordered by KJN to test that month.

The other person that I have heard (but do not know first-hand) to have often tested multiple months in a row, was also extremely good-- no halfway or lazy training there.

But I see multiple testing as a separate issue from the slack-off training you mentioned first. My experience indicates that when exceptions to the test times are made, they are not for "slackers".

Also, once you make DBN, there is no speeding up the testing process. There might be a make-up test offered, but four tests a year is pretty much it, and they'll promote you when they promote you.

As for the regularity of training, that sounds like a whole nother thread.

this is the only time ive seen it happen but this person decided he would go to class 4 times a week so he went in for about 3 testings in a row, which i dont know how he managed as your suposed to have to leave at least one testing in between.

[AZeitung]

this is the only time ive seen it happen but this person decided he would go to class 4 times a week so he went in for about 3 testings in a row, which i dont know how he managed as your suposed to have to leave at least one testing in between.
We train 3/4 times a week (depending on rank), and still only test once a semester (twice a year for most people, three times if you take summers). Our practices are 1.5-2 hours, and some people (including myself) stay even longer, to get another 1-2 hours in per practice. It takes 4 years to get to blackbelt here, no matter what (and of course, the Dahn Bo Nim testing schedule is a separate thing).

[TXKukSoolBB]

I'm sure that all of that practice AZeitung shows up in your techniques, forms etc. That is what I was referring to earlier. This is clearly evident at tournament if there is a tie on a event. For example, your competition form may be Dae Geup Hyung, there is a tie between you and the other guy. The judges may say...OK, now do Ki Cho Hyung as a tie breaker. It will be very easy to see who practices everything, and the one who only practices what will be graded at tournament. Even with the hours we practice at my school...it is not enough. There is never enough practice!

[Wolf]

I think the idea of people promoting to fast is something you'll see occasionally in just about every style. With martial arts growing as fast as they are, it's going to be impossible for the standard of quality at schools to remain equal across the board. It's just a matter of working hard yourself. At my school our instructors have no qualms about keeping a student from promoting if they're not up to snuff. In rare occasions students will promote faster, but that is usually because of a lot of extra work and previous MA experience.

[baubin2]

We train 3/4 times a week (depending on rank), and still only test once a semester (twice a year for most people, three times if you take summers). Our practices are 1.5-2 hours, and some people (including myself) stay even longer, to get another 1-2 hours in per practice. It takes 4 years to get to blackbelt here, no matter what (and of course, the Dahn Bo Nim testing schedule is a separate thing).

Not quite true. One of the guys promoting here next week has only been studying for 3 years. Of course, he lives here, so he always comes to summer practice and is an exception rather than a rule, but I just thought I'd throw that in here.

[AZeitung]

Who is that? BTW, Tim lived there, too, and studied every summer (as far as I know), but it still took him four years to get to black belt.

[justinksw]

In our school, there is a few simple rules to keep someone from advancing 'too quick'.

First: You can't test two months in a row. Even though you may know what is required for your next test by the next month, you still have to wait.

Second: To test for the next belt level, you must have at least 30 practices in at your current belt.

As long as they stick to that then it will take about 3.5 years at best to make it to black belt. Like lots of others have stated, you spend a long time at brown belt and dahn bo nihm prior to reaching black belt.

I do have a problem, however, with the rumors I hear about Kuk Sa Nim not passing anyone on their first try for black belt. If you have the techniques and forms down, and you meet all other requirements then you shouldn't be denied on principle of failure the first time no matter what.
:)

[Wolf]

This was my take on it while I was testing. It wasn't so much that I 'failed' the first time around. It's that I was required to take at least 6 tests between brown and black and 2 of them had to be in front of Kuk Sa Nim. Also, I didn't know all my techniques the first time around. You're not required to know everything up through Dahn Do Maki to take your first test. You just have to have to be Dahn Bo Nim.

[ember]

My school won't even teach Gum Mool Hyung until you've done your first black belt test, and you make Dan Bo Nym with Kwan Juhl Ki, so the chances of knowing everything before your first black belt test are slim-to-none.

I'm told it takes an average of 3-5 years to make black belt, depending in part on consistency of practice and mastery of the material.

I've also found that I've learned something each time I've tested.

This was my take on it while I was testing. It wasn't so much that I 'failed' the first time around. It's that I was required to take at least 6 tests between brown and black and 2 of them had to be in front of Kuk Sa Nim. Also, I didn't know all my techniques the first time around. You're not required to know everything up through Dahn Do Maki to take your first test. You just have to have to be Dahn Bo Nim.

[ember]

How does your school do technique follow-through and weapons training?

I've heard that one of the nearby schools has students fall for techniques from the beginning. Our school only usually works that portion of the techniques for colored belts near tournament. Otherwise, you'd have to have made it to the advanced classes (brown belt +) to learn all the falls and follow-throughs.

You've said it takes 4 years, that's about the same for us. I wonder if some of it could be this difference; that you're training the techniques and forms in greater detail at the colored belt levels, and spending less time at brown belt / dan bo nym levels.

We train 3/4 times a week (depending on rank), and still only test once a semester (twice a year for most people, three times if you take summers). Our practices are 1.5-2 hours, and some people (including myself) stay even longer, to get another 1-2 hours in per practice. It takes 4 years to get to blackbelt here, no matter what (and of course, the Dahn Bo Nim testing schedule is a separate thing).

[TXKukSoolBB]

We will start falls/takedowns from the very beginning but don't always do falls when practicing techniques. It is just as important (if not more) to know how to fall properly when a technique is done on you than doing the technique itself. Anyone who has had to work with someone who does not know how to fall will understand this. It's not just a functional issue but a safety one too. We may do techniques with falls one week and do Nak Bub by itself the following week. We just change it up for variety purposes. As far as weapons, we try to spend a minimum of 30 minutes a week in practice. Outside practice is a must if one wants to become very skilled in staff or sword. The only way to get better at staff spins is to spin your staff. A lot of that can be done at home once you have been taught the skill. Someone who can go through all of there spins with 30-50 spins each or someone who can perform all 5 sword meditations 200 times each, will be much more likely to demonstrate command of that weapon.

[AZeitung]

How does your school do technique follow-through and weapons training?

I've heard that one of the nearby schools has students fall for techniques from the beginning. Our school only usually works that portion of the techniques for colored belts near tournament. Otherwise, you'd have to have made it to the advanced classes (brown belt +) to learn all the falls and follow-throughs.

You've said it takes 4 years, that's about the same for us. I wonder if some of it could be this difference; that you're training the techniques and forms in greater detail at the colored belt levels, and spending less time at brown belt / dan bo nym levels.

We start learning falls at white belt, and begin using falling with the techniques as soon as everyone is fairly comfortable with them, usually after a month or so. However, over the past year, the gym has been slicing up our mats and stealing them piece by piece, so we have been doing less falling.

Weapons, we get Jool Bong at white belt, and my class got the regular bong at yellow, when I learned the first 7 bong doligi, then learned the rest at blue. Typically, however, we learn the first seven bong doligi at blue belt, and the rest at red. We do bong forms and bong dae riun at brown, as well as some sword forms, I think, and dan bong.

We spend two years at colored belt levels, and two at brown/dan bo nym.

[baubin2]

This was my take on it while I was testing. It wasn't so much that I 'failed' the first time around. It's that I was required to take at least 6 tests between brown and black and 2 of them had to be in front of Kuk Sa Nim. Also, I didn't know all my techniques the first time around. You're not required to know everything up through Dahn Do Maki to take your first test. You just have to have to be Dahn Bo Nim.
Yes, I think the amount of tests you have to take at brown belt level to reach black belt is silly. At our school, we get around this problem rather neatly by simply not paying attention to stripes very much at brown belt level. One of our black belts who promoted at St. Louis only had 2 stripes on her belt before the day of the tournament (don't get me wrong, she'd been studying for 5 years, and she knew all her stuff and passed her tests, she just had no stripes on her belt is all). So to fix this, we stopped at a gas station on our way to lunch and got some black tape, and.... voila! Six stripes! We even got a picture of the gas station. Funny stuff :D

[ember]

I should clarify, we do start basic falling (from the kneeling position) in the introductory lessons, usually at least once a week through the beginner classes. We may also have students do hajen nak bub, cartwheels, and goyangi nak bub on their own (not thrown) at the beginner levels.

The intermediate classes may step up to doing the falls (again, not thrown) from squating position, or at the red belt level may be practiced from the standing position on the crash mat. Red belts may also start other techniques like kip up or handsprings.

There may be occasional technique classes where students practice throwing for one or two techniques at the beginner level, and falling for one or two techniques at the intermediate level, however it is not done on a weekly basis.

The brown belt and up classes work on falls from the standing position, and falling every time we do techniques (usually every week).

As for weapons - I'll reply to Azeitung on that.

We will start falls/takedowns from the very beginning but don't always do falls when practicing techniques. It is just as important (if not more) to know how to fall properly when a technique is done on you than doing the technique itself. Anyone who has had to work with someone who does not know how to fall will understand this. It's not just a functional issue but a safety one too. We may do techniques with falls one week and do Nak Bub by itself the following week. We just change it up for variety purposes. As far as weapons, we try to spend a minimum of 30 minutes a week in practice. Outside practice is a must if one wants to become very skilled in staff or sword. The only way to get better at staff spins is to spin your staff. A lot of that can be done at home once you have been taught the skill. Someone who can go through all of there spins with 30-50 spins each or someone who can perform all 5 sword meditations 200 times each, will be much more likely to demonstrate command of that weapon.

[ember]

See, there's a *big* difference right there. In the normal classes at our school, weapons are not regularly taught. I'm thinking... are you in a campus-based club, mostly adults? We have juniors, some of them really young kids that really couldn't handle weapons properly.

At the brown belt/dan bo nym level we may do staff spinning in a regular class once in a while, partly depending on class size, space available, weather (for outside practice). This picks up more as tournament approaches.

Now our dojang does have what they call a "Black Belt Club", which students may join after they've reached yellow belt. That includes additional classes that cycle through jool bong, bong, and sword.

I've been in that for about 15 months, and gotten bong spinning (bong doligi?) 1-15, through the first 5 sets of jool bong, and the sword meditations. We've *started* on the pre-arranged staff sparring, but are not all the way through it. And in sword, we've practiced a few of the movements for the form, but not in any form order.

Last year BBC classes were offered once a month, on Saturdays, and ran about one to one and a half hours. This year they've switched to two Friday's a month, for about an hour.


Weapons, we get Jool Bong at white belt, and my class got the regular bong at yellow, when I learned the first 7 bong doligi, then learned the rest at blue. Typically, however, we learn the first seven bong doligi at blue belt, and the rest at red. We do bong forms and bong dae riun at brown, as well as some sword forms, I think, and dan bong.

We spend two years at colored belt levels, and two at brown/dan bo nym.

[Timmy Boy]

First: You can't test two months in a row. Even though you may know what is required for your next test by the next month, you still have to wait.

IMHO, that doesn't solve the problem at all. If students are ready to progress to the next belt then they should progress to the next belt. By stopping them grading just for the sake of it you're only artificially making the art take longer to master. If you really want training to take longer, make the syllabus more difficult so that people really have to work for their belts.

[AZeitung]

I really doubt anyone would learn an entire belt's syllabus in a month. You generally have to learn about 30 joint lock/throwing techniques, a form, and some other assorted stuff. Most people aren't even proficient at the techniques when they promote, they just memorize them - and that's after a lot more than a month of practice. I think the issue is more skill at doing the techniques than learning the syllabus. Anyone who learns 30 joint locks or throws in one month, I can garauntee isn't doing them well, and probably isn't practicing his old stuff either.

[ember]

As far as I know, they don't. However, at our school they don't stop teaching you techniques just because you've learned the ones you need for testing.

Depending on how far ahead they've gotten, they could still have been working on the techniques for two months before they tested.

I really doubt anyone would learn an entire belt's syllabus in a month. You generally have to learn about 30 joint lock/throwing techniques, a form, and some other assorted stuff. Most people aren't even proficient at the techniques when they promote, they just memorize them - and that's after a lot more than a month of practice. I think the issue is more skill at doing the techniques than learning the syllabus. Anyone who learns 30 joint locks or throws in one month, I can garauntee isn't doing them well, and probably isn't practicing his old stuff either.

[AZeitung]

Interesting, we generally just learn the techniques from our belt level and nothing else (except maybe, some assorted grappling stuff, or something like Johk bonga sool). In any event, I think it's good that your school makes people wait a month before promoting - it gives the things you've learned some time to sink in so that you have at least some proficiency in the techniques that you're supposed to know at your belt level.

[Kwajman]

If the school is so bad why are you there?

[AZeitung]

?? :confused:


We test once a semester, BTW - I don't know if I gave a different impression somewhere.

[ember]

Actually, I do have a question about your school and stripes. Do students at your school compete much? The DBN competitions are separated by stripes, IIRC ~0-2, 3-5, and 6+. We've been told for competition that our techniques partner cannot be more than ~2 stripes higher in rank, because that is a difference of about six months of training.

Yes, I think the amount of tests you have to take at brown belt level to reach black belt is silly. At our school, we get around this problem rather neatly by simply not paying attention to stripes very much at brown belt level. One of our black belts who promoted at St. Louis only had 2 stripes on her belt before the day of the tournament (don't get me wrong, she'd been studying for 5 years, and she knew all her stuff and passed her tests, she just had no stripes on her belt is all). So to fix this, we stopped at a gas station on our way to lunch and got some black tape, and.... voila! Six stripes! We even got a picture of the gas station. Funny stuff :D

[DL.Demolition]

I do not use a partner higher in level than myslef in tournament as it is disrespectfull. Although in class it is a great benefit.

I always say that you get out of kuk sool what you put in and if there are brown belts that have no ability inn your class then they are letting themselves and their instructors down.

DL

[Wolf]

It's also technically against the rules of KSW tournaments to use a partner of a higher rank. When I promoted in st. louis to 1st degree last year I had to compete after I promoted. I was still competing at DBN level though. My partner at the time didn't switch out his belt fast enough and KJN Sims called "Anyone Wearing A Blackbelt" up to be judges. Since he was wearing his BB he couldn't be my partner and I had to grab one of the bluebelts from my school at the last minute.

[Silentmonk]

It's also technically against the rules of KSW tournaments to use a partner of a higher rank. When I promoted in st. louis to 1st degree last year I had to compete after I promoted. I was still competing at DBN level though. My partner at the time didn't switch out his belt fast enough and KJN Sims called "Anyone Wearing A Blackbelt" up to be judges. Since he was wearing his BB he couldn't be my partner and I had to grab one of the bluebelts from my school at the last minute.

You Cheat lol competing at a rank below your current level haha seems strange to promote before the tournament how does that work. We always promote after over in the uk. :)

[korean]

I trained with In Sun Seo and his sons and daughters. It took me about 8 years to get my 1st degree.

[Wolf]

I tested the day before the tourney, but obviously had to compete at DBN level because I hadn't learned JKN stuff yet. The tried a new schedule for tourneys then and had the youths go in the morning. Then they had a lunch break and the masters demo with promotions. Then the adult competition. So promoted right before my competition. Also I was still DBN when I registered for the tournament. Most of my division actually promoted there.

[Silentmonk]

I tested the day before the tourney, but obviously had to compete at DBN level because I hadn't learned JKN stuff yet. The tried a new schedule for tourneys then and had the youths go in the morning. Then they had a lunch break and the masters demo with promotions. Then the adult competition. So promoted right before my competition. Also I was still DBN when I registered for the tournament. Most of my division actually promoted there.

Aha i see we always have the masters demo and promotions in the evening after the tournaments. :)

[Choiyoungwoo]

I tested the day before the tourney, but obviously had to compete at DBN level because I hadn't learned JKN stuff yet. The tried a new schedule for tourneys then and had the youths go in the morning. Then they had a lunch break and the masters demo with promotions. Then the adult competition. So promoted right before my competition. Also I was still DBN when I registered for the tournament. Most of my division actually promoted there.


Did you think testing was too easy, or too difficult, or Just about right?

[Wolf]

Well my first test was one of the hardest things I've been through. I was completely wiped by the end. I think that was just about right. My last test was good, and tested me physically, but it wasn't nearly as hard. That was because there were a lot of us in a relatively small space. We just didn't have the room to do everything. Given the circumstances I thought it was a good test, but I hope my future tests push me a bit harder.

[Choiyoungwoo]

What constitutes a "hard" test? somebody chime in. I really want to know your ideas about this and how you perceive testing.

[KSW_123]

What constitutes a "hard" test? somebody chime in. I really want to know your ideas about this and how you perceive testing.
I have experienced two distincly different types of hard tests. The way we test now is physically hard, but the atmosphere is pleasant. The positive energy helps keep you going when you are starting to really hurt.

When I first tested for my black belt, things were much different. You sat in a stinky overfilled room with hundreds of students (white belt on up) and all the masters. You sat there for what seemed like hours until it was your turn to get up and do your one thing. Then you sat back down and waited another forever till the next time you had to do something. The test was physically easy, if it wasn't for the stiffness and hunger. I don't know why but I remember those tests being really hard, even though if I list out what we did it is less than a regular class. I think the master's were really good at the mental game. I wouldn't say they were negative, but they certainly created an atmosphere of apprehension and tension.

[TXKukSoolBB]

What constitutes a "hard" test? somebody chime in. I really want to know your ideas about this and how you perceive testing.

To me, any test where my mental abilities are tested after I am physically spent are the best. That is when you true spirit has to come out. Here you are, tired and fatigued, and having to focus and concentrate on whatever the proctor is asking you to do. Two of my BB tests I would label as such. I learned a lot about myself during those two tests! The second one was my last test, so I really felt a sense of accomplishment as KSN handed me my BB and certificate and my face was still red from the testing.

[coc716]

What constitutes a "hard" test? somebody chime in. I really want to know your ideas about this and how you perceive testing.

Any test where I feel I've been pushed beyond where I was before. It might be physical, it might be mental, perhaps emotional, or a combination. But somehow it pushed me further, it challenged me, and typically I learned something about myself and discover more things I need to work on (need more practice!).

As we say, "I can do more than I think I can!". That comes out in testing, especially hard testing.

[ember]

I think at my first two tournaments, my partner was just *slightly* higher rank. Blue stripe vs. my yellow belt, and then 1 black stripe vs. my 0. I think I have heard of cases where even one stripe higher was not allowed but I don't recall where.

In Korea, we discovered that DBNs were allowed to throw partners who were JKNs and KSNs. (I don't remember about PSBNs, that might have been the limit.)

But now I'll throw my husband whenever possible at tournament. He's 3 stripes behind me, so it's unlikely to be an issue for me.

I do not use a partner higher in level than myslef in tournament as it is disrespectfull. Although in class it is a great benefit.

I always say that you get out of kuk sool what you put in and if there are brown belts that have no ability inn your class then they are letting themselves and their instructors down.

DL

[DL.Demolition]

If you are in the uk this is not allowed as far as I know.

I think that you should be given your techniques and your partner by the judges on the day.

Then just lock it in and away they go tap tap tap!!!

DL

[Silentmonk]

If you are in the uk this is not allowed as far as I know.

I think that you should be given your techniques and your partner by the judges on the day.

Then just lock it in and away they go tap tap tap!!!

DL

Yep another idea i've always fancied incorporating into the tournament, If only i was higher up the tree lol If we get to throw higher belts i get first dibs on airnick. Gold medals for the monk all the way :D :D :D

[Dr Doberman]

Being given the techs. by the judges is a good idea! That way you could tell the good techs. from just good breakfalls. It would also mean being fully prepared with every single tech. for your level not knowing which one you would be given.

[davefly76]

If you are in the uk this is not allowed as far as I know.


afaik as long as you are in the same competing group, 2 - 6 stripes for example then someone with 3 stripes can do techs on someone with 5.

in the same way that a yellow belt would compete against a blue stripe because they would be in the same competion group.

:)

[davefly76]

Being given the techs. by the judges is a good idea! That way you could tell the good techs. from just good breakfalls. It would also mean being fully prepared with every single tech. for your level not knowing which one you would be given.

i think this should happen in the event of a tie-break. rather than have to perform all 3 again the judges should call a random tech from that set and points could be lost for hesitation.

:)

[Silentmonk]

i think this should happen in the event of a tie-break. rather than have to perform all 3 again the judges should call a random tech from that set and points could be lost for hesitation.

:)

They used to do that when i was a red belt. Mind you they have invented colour TV since then, and apparently man has been to the moon. lol :)

[davefly76]

they did it when i was white belt. tied for 1st and called out no. 10. i did no. 11 DOH! :bang:

silver for me then! :cry:

it's a good way of doing it, add a bit of extra pressure :D

[Mung Kee]

they did it when i was white belt. tied for 1st and called out no. 10. i did no. 11 DOH! :bang:

silver for me then! :cry:

it's a good way of doing it, add a bit of extra pressure :D

and also it tests the real martial artist from the actor. In my experience if it looks good it wins medals but in reality effective MA aint pretty!!!

[Silentmonk]

they did it when i was white belt. tied for 1st and called out no. 10. i did no. 11 DOH! :bang:

silver for me then! :cry:

it's a good way of doing it, add a bit of extra pressure :D

I really think its a great way of doing it. I say call any number any set upto the level that the competitor is at. God that would make 3rd degree techniques interesting to watch lol what do you reckon Gi Ma Ja Se n Airnick you up for that hehe :D

[Gi Ma Ja Se]

No Problem.... lol HE HE... how about you airnick, im just glad none of these lot are on our judges panel.... he he he although we could be on theres mwwwaaaa ha ha :D

[DL.Demolition]

I think in a tie break situation we should have to do techniques on the other side.

That would put your physical and mental training to the test.

DL

[davefly76]

I think in a tie break situation we should have to do techniques on the other side.

That would put your physical and mental training to the test.

DL

good idea. we could do that for forms as well.

mmm, guhm moo hyung left hand side :eek: LOL what a nightmare :D

[coc716]

Being given the techs. by the judges is a good idea! That way you could tell the good techs. from just good breakfalls. It would also mean being fully prepared with every single tech. for your level not knowing which one you would be given.

That is a good idea.

In the tournaments I've competed in, that is how they did the tiebreakers. The judges were able to call out any technique from any set from KBS up to the set that you were working at. Sometimes the technique called was from the same set that you were competing in, other times they did call lower techniques.

So it's good to practice not just your 3, but well... everything you're supposed to know. Keeps you properly on your toes. :)

[AirNick]

No Problem.... lol HE HE... how about you airnick, im just glad none of these lot are on our judges panel.... he he he although we could be on theres mwwwaaaa ha ha :D
With my memory? Oh well, it's not like I ever do well in techniques anyway :cry:

[Choiyoungwoo]

I think the judges should do the nak bub :D

[DL.Demolition]

what as your partner for the techniques?

throwing Mr Hart down to the mat. Tap tap tap (I dont think so)

DL

[Wolf]

guhm moo hyung left hand side :eek: LOL what a nightmare :D
It's really not that bad. I just about had it down, and it didn't take long to get (Granted I haven't tried in a few months). Now what about Baek Pahl Ki Hyung from the left side :bang:

[DL.Demolition]

Under tournament pressure!!!

What a thought!

I dont think I could do any under that circumstance however I do practice them on both sides in class for fun

DL

[davefly76]

It's really not that bad. I just about had it down, and it didn't take long to get (Granted I haven't tried in a few months). Now what about Baek Pahl Ki Hyung from the left side :bang:

i think baek pahl ki hyung would be easier, although i've never tried. it pretty much goes in the same direction apart from when you turn and go back on yourself.

guhm moo hyung constantly changes direction :confused:

[DL.Demolition]

Try it right now Youll like it.

DL

[psbn matt]

throwing Mr Hart down to the mat. Tap tap tap (I dont think so)

DL

i almost had him at the birmingham demo, just a few seconds more of lulling him in to a false sense of security by letting him hit me, and i would have taken him out:D

[ember]

I've been trying it, but keep getting confused. I guess I don't quite know Gum Mool Hyung well enough yet.

It's really not that bad. I just about had it down, and it didn't take long to get (Granted I haven't tried in a few months). Now what about Baek Pahl Ki Hyung from the left side :bang:

[Gi Ma Ja Se]

My points for doing the left side.... lol now this is just how i do it and it helps.... if it feels too comfortable the motion your mind wants you to do as the next step in the form, do the opposite. This helps me and i can do them with ease this way!!

The hardest one i have found is staff form on the left. Oh my gosh no power at all.

[Dr Doberman]

My points for doing the left side.... lol now this is just how i do it and it helps.... if it feels too comfortable the motion your mind wants you to do as the next step in the form, do the opposite. This helps me and i can do them with ease this way!!

This is how I do it too! Another way is to get someone facing you - doing it on their right side and use them as your mirror image!

[DL.Demolition]

That must be why the call you the doc!

Nice one
DL

[ember]

It also helps to not think "right" or "left", but instead think "front" or "back".

I think I'm fine on Ki Cho Hyung through Dae Geup Hyung left side, although sometimes Go Geup Hyung will still confuse me.

Gum Mool Hyung is my current form, so while I have occasionally tried it left-side, it's not been real regular or too serious yet.

My points for doing the left side.... lol now this is just how i do it and it helps.... if it feels too comfortable the motion your mind wants you to do as the next step in the form, do the opposite. This helps me and i can do them with ease this way!!

The hardest one i have found is staff form on the left. Oh my gosh no power at all.

[Chris J.]

Hi,
This thread really deals with the motivations of the instructor. The old methods were not concerned much with rank; this happened as a result of Japanese intervention and mainly Funakoshi and his Shoto-Kan Ryu. Most Korean stylists refuse to admit their art stems fundamentally from a student of Funakoshi named Choi. It started in 1951 when he trained in Japan in Shoto-Kan for somewhere between 1 and 2 years, attaining first degree in Shoto-Kan, then he moved to an outlying school and traied an additional 2 years up to 2nd degree black belt level. It was then that he returned to Korea and formed his first school, called Tae-Kwon. This name was similar to the old forgotten art that had been in Korea several hundred years earlier called Tae-Kyon.
I have seen the 1952 syllabus from Funakoshi's Shoto-Kan and the 1953 syllabus that was used in the beginning at Choi's school, at the same time, on the same table. I flipped through them both and they match exactly, page for page, except for one page where the terms had been re-written in Korean and another where charts had been re-labeled.
Some of the histories that have been given out to students for their understanding of Korean martial arts history are completely wrong. They are lies, wishful thinking. It is sad to say that many people still believe those lies.
I digress. There were once stern standards, established by the Japanese concerning rank. Many schools have lost this. Before the time of the Japanese Karate styles it was the Okinawans using it, and generally they had no particular concern for rank; it was about survival. It had to work, or people died using it.
Most peole these days might as well take their black belts off and use them as toilet paper for all the good they are. This is my opinion, of course. The problem is bad in most modern styles, but is especially bad in Korean styles. Obviously there are bound to be exceptions to this. Funakoshi took Te/Di and converted it into a discipline and exercise art to instill fighting spirit in young children in preparation for their mandatory stint in the Japanese military. Choi took THAT and eventually converted it into a tournament art where most of the remaining application was lost. Now people pick bits and pieces of missing information and retrofit TKD and KSW with it, trying to re-invent the wheel which has always been there from before. Interesting to watch but frustrating, very frustrating. :bang:

-Chris A. Johnston

[Choiyoungwoo]

Hi,
This thread really deals with the motivations of the instructor. The old methods were not concerned much with rank; this happened as a result of Japanese intervention and mainly Funakoshi and his Shoto-Kan Ryu. Most Korean stylists refuse to admit their art stems fundamentally from a student of Funakoshi named Choi. It started in 1951 when he trained in Japan in Shoto-Kan for somewhere between 1 and 2 years, attaining first degree in Shoto-Kan, then he moved to an outlying school and traied an additional 2 years up to 2nd degree black belt level. It was then that he returned to Korea and formed his first school, called Tae-Kwon. This name was similar to the old forgotten art that had been in Korea several hundred years earlier called Tae-Kyon.
I have seen the 1952 syllabus from Funakoshi's Shoto-Kan and the 1953 syllabus that was used in the beginning at Choi's school, at the same time, on the same table. I flipped through them both and they match exactly, page for page, except for one page where the terms had been re-written in Korean and another where charts had been re-labeled.
Some of the histories that have been given out to students for their understanding of Korean martial arts history are completely wrong. They are lies, wishful thinking. It is sad to say that many people still believe those lies.
I digress. There were once stern standards, established by the Japanese concerning rank. Many schools have lost this. Before the time of the Japanese Karate styles it was the Okinawans using it, and generally they had no particular concern for rank; it was about survival. It had to work, or people died using it.
Most peole these days might as well take their black belts off and use them as toilet paper for all the good they are. This is my opinion, of course. The problem is bad in most modern styles, but is especially bad in Korean styles. Obviously there are bound to be exceptions to this. Funakoshi took Te/Di and converted it into a discipline and exercise art to instill fighting spirit in young children in preparation for their mandatory stint in the Japanese military. Choi took THAT and eventually converted it into a tournament art where most of the remaining application was lost. Now people pick bits and pieces of missing information and retrofit TKD and KSW with it, trying to re-invent the wheel which has always been there from before. Interesting to watch but frustrating, very frustrating. :bang:

-Chris A. Johnston

I have had the same experience in that Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and Shoto-kan that I have studied are virtually identical with only cosmetic exceptions. Both of my instructors in these respective arts were similar in that they did not buy into the business of rank... So everyone wasn't always successful in progressing.


"Now people pick bits and pieces of missing information and retrofit TKD and KSW with it, trying to re-invent the wheel which has always been there from before"

I would like some specifics as to what these bits and piecies are. I am curious as to any retrofit that has occured in ksw. I haven't been in the TKD/TSD world in some time so I wouldn't know ..

Anyway ....very interesting post Thanks....

[Wolf]

I'm curious too as to what has been retrofitted as KSW is a bit more complex that TKD. I'm just curious, and would like specific examples.

[digitaltaoist]

Hi,
This thread really deals with the motivations of the instructor. The old methods were not concerned much with rank; this happened as a result of Japanese intervention and mainly Funakoshi and his Shoto-Kan Ryu. Most Korean stylists refuse to admit their art stems fundamentally from a student of Funakoshi named Choi. It started in 1951 when he trained in Japan in Shoto-Kan for somewhere between 1 and 2 years, attaining first degree in Shoto-Kan, then he moved to an outlying school and traied an additional 2 years up to 2nd degree black belt level. It was then that he returned to Korea and formed his first school, called Tae-Kwon. This name was similar to the old forgotten art that had been in Korea several hundred years earlier called Tae-Kyon.
I have seen the 1952 syllabus from Funakoshi's Shoto-Kan and the 1953 syllabus that was used in the beginning at Choi's school, at the same time, on the same table. I flipped through them both and they match exactly, page for page, except for one page where the terms had been re-written in Korean and another where charts had been re-labeled.
Some of the histories that have been given out to students for their understanding of Korean martial arts history are completely wrong. They are lies, wishful thinking. It is sad to say that many people still believe those lies.
I digress. There were once stern standards, established by the Japanese concerning rank. Many schools have lost this. Before the time of the Japanese Karate styles it was the Okinawans using it, and generally they had no particular concern for rank; it was about survival. It had to work, or people died using it.
Most peole these days might as well take their black belts off and use them as toilet paper for all the good they are. This is my opinion, of course. The problem is bad in most modern styles, but is especially bad in Korean styles. Obviously there are bound to be exceptions to this. Funakoshi took Te/Di and converted it into a discipline and exercise art to instill fighting spirit in young children in preparation for their mandatory stint in the Japanese military. Choi took THAT and eventually converted it into a tournament art where most of the remaining application was lost. Now people pick bits and pieces of missing information and retrofit TKD and KSW with it, trying to re-invent the wheel which has always been there from before. Interesting to watch but frustrating, very frustrating. :bang:

-Chris A. Johnston


have you ever even seen kuk sool won? you sound like a lot of japanese stylists i talk with who are certain that japanese karate is the sun source of all martial arts -- i agree that tkd/tsd are japanese karate derivatives. this is obvious in the old hyung, not so obvious in the new ones introduced in the late 80s/early 90s -- but for 'obvious' reasons (the korean masters were specifically trying to distance themselves from the japanese as it was becoming more and more apparent that tkd/tsd were really japanese spin-offs).

kuk sool won hyung, on the other hand, are on a WHOLE different page and don't resemble japanese karate kata in the least (if anything, they have a more chinese influence -- especially those forms from guhm moo hyung and higher).

i can only assume by your post that you have no familiarity with kuk sool won at all, and basically just wanted to jump in with the old 'your karate is really just my karate, so my karate is better.'

[Choiyoungwoo]

Easy guys...........Chris j. please understand that most of us have heard this , over and over and over, and to hear it again just gets old. I absolutely concur that TSD/TKD origins are probably just what you propose (through my own personal experience in TSD and JKA shoto kan), or at least very close to it. KSW has an equally misty past but I am sure it is different than what you presented. Yes yes yes the Koreans are notorious for trying to nationalize everything and embellish history. Forgive them, they can't help it. You would also if you lost 2-3 generations and countless parts of you cultural Identity to Canada. Now if we are going to discuss origin, then it is well accepted that the crucible of MA in general is Shaolin, Kuk sool is much closer to that in movement style than any form of
Shoto-kan......

Back to the thread...

Yes it is easier to get belts that 50 years ago .....or even 15 years ago. Thats the way it is. People train for different reasons and the arts that don't evolve will fade. Albiet with dignity, and the honor of not giving into modern trends and economic influences. But there will be reservoirs of info if you can find them. I still think that the student determines much of the quality of thier own skill. The instructor is only a guide, and hopefully an inspiration by good example. Most of what i read in this thread and similar ones concerns me as it sounds like people are just doing oon-dong (exercise), I am not sure what squats, push ups, and other difficult drills have to do with MA ability other than fitness. Is anyone tested over effectiveness? Or is it all about being in great shape. Sounds a little like Tae-BO :eek: What about a test to see if you can make your skills actually work? ETC. :Alien:

[KSW_123]

Most of what i read in this thread and similar ones concerns me as it sounds like people are just doing oon-dong (exercise), I am not sure what squats, push ups, and other difficult drills have to do with MA ability other than fitness. Is anyone tested over effectiveness? Or is it all about being in great shape. Sounds a little like Tae-BO :eek: What about a test to see if you can make your skills actually work? ETC. :Alien:

Good point, but does the instructor even need to test the student to know this? The instructor is watching the student's skills all the time. This assumes that some sort of freestyle work is incorpated in normal classes. What the instructor doesn't see every day is the students "warrior spirit" (I hate that term but can't think of anything better). No matter how good of shape you are in, I don't beleive that anyone pushes themselves over the edge every class session. Even the best marathon runners don't run a marathon every day.

[DL.Demolition]

Sorta answered your own question then as in a grading you leave nothing behind. That is what makes your promotion an achievement.

I dont think that because people pay there money they should pass however I have seen it done like this in the past.

That is why I travel the globe never settling down for to long passing on the way of the warrior to thos who are worthy. Those who aint will meet there maker on the mat one day!

DL

[Silentmonk]

Like the idea of a testing to see if your art actually works though i think its gonna be very difficult to do, For instance how do you test to see whether a joint lock that is designed to break a joint works??? Let that person testing break someone elses joint????? how do you test the power and accuracy of a kick a punch under combat/ self defence reality surely a true kick is designed to damage as is any strike, so therefore you could only test the true effectiveness of a system by doing everything full power. THis in an art that won't let us do full contact sparring in tournaments don't think its gonna happen somehow. Hehe and yes i know i'm taking it to extremes just actually not sure what you mean on how to test for effectiveness choi its a good point we might be doing it we might not at our class it depends on your definition. Please clear up what you mean and how you do it. Thanx :)

[Choiyoungwoo]

Good point, but does the instructor even need to test the student to know this? The instructor is watching the student's skills all the time. This assumes that some sort of freestyle work is incorpated in normal classes. What the instructor doesn't see every day is the students "warrior spirit" (I hate that term but can't think of anything better). No matter how good of shape you are in, I don't beleive that anyone pushes themselves over the edge every class session. Even the best marathon runners don't run a marathon every day.

if you have ever run a marathon then you know that you don't train for one by running the entire distance. when you went to college ,,,how much of your final grade was based on your final exam and how much was based on the work throughout the semester? should MA training be any different?

[Choiyoungwoo]

Sorta answered your own question then as in a grading you leave nothing behind. That is what makes your promotion an achievement.

I dont think that because people pay there money they should pass however I have seen it done like this in the past.

That is why I travel the globe never settling down for to long passing on the way of the warrior to thos who are worthy. Those who aint will meet there maker on the mat one day!

DL
I won't reccommend them for exam unless I am reasonably sure they will succeed. I wouldn't want to waste thier time or mine if they are not ready.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Like the idea of a testing to see if your art actually works though i think its gonna be very difficult to do, For instance how do you test to see whether a joint lock that is designed to break a joint works??? Let that person testing break someone elses joint????? how do you test the power and accuracy of a kick a punch under combat/ self defence reality surely a true kick is designed to damage as is any strike, so therefore you could only test the true effectiveness of a system by doing everything full power. THis in an art that won't let us do full contact sparring in tournaments don't think its gonna happen somehow. Hehe and yes i know i'm taking it to extremes just actually not sure what you mean on how to test for effectiveness choi its a good point we might be doing it we might not at our class it depends on your definition. Please clear up what you mean and how you do it. Thanx :)

Neutral partners who are capable of falling properly ( i think the judges should do this) They neither resist or comply. They conform to proper tech only and fall based on necessity rather than requirement.

[Silentmonk]

Neutral partners who are capable of falling properly ( i think the judges should do this) They neither resist or comply. They conform to proper tech only and fall based on necessity rather than requirement.

ok that makes sense yeah we kinda do that, i expect people to fall only if they are made to and when i don't think they are i get the person to do the technique on me. And then i then do it on the person who is just jumping around, if they go before i put the pressure on i do it again, then again and then again until they do it properly. So yeah we try to do that at ours obviously sometimes they slip through, but they usually get caught before they get to their black belt test. :D

[davefly76]

ok that makes sense yeah we kinda do that, i expect people to fall only if they are made to

yeah agree with you on that one and i hope everyone else does. i don't want anyone to fall or go down just for the sake of it when i am doing my techs on them.

it doesn't help my training if they just fall at the slightest touch. i want them to go down screaming :D

[KSW_123]

Neutral partners who are capable of falling properly ( i think the judges should do this) They neither resist or comply. They conform to proper tech only and fall based on necessity rather than requirement.
I consider this step 2 in learning techniques, but the student is still not prepared to use it live yet. If the test is skill based then why not kick it up a knotch and do techniques against at least static resistance.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Rank exams are events of a matriculation. It is not normative based. (where everyone held to a concrete standard without regard to any physical conditions, age, injuries etc..) It is mastery based, where all of these things are considered and the standard is high but relative. It is not OBE (outcome based education), where everyone passed no matter what. I will not grade your mom on the same standard with which I grade you. In my exam I will kill you with jump kicks and falling and other Martial art skills, she will do the same level of intensity with hyung, weapons, etc. but I won't even ask her to jump and fly. even if she can do it, the risks outweigh the benefits in my judgement.

[Silentmonk]

I consider this step 2 in learning techniques, but the student is still not prepared to use it live yet. If the test is skill based then why not kick it up a knotch and do techniques against at least static resistance.

True why not get the person to attack them in civilian clothes, get more than one person to attack them, get them to be pushed over a chair, be holding their wifes arm as the person attacks,have their babies in their arms, be drunk,the list is endles but since its a traditional art testing for a traditional belt that has a specific amount of information that is needed to get that rank. The necessity being to cover those techniques in the way that they should be taught in a traditional stance then a falling partner is all that is needed its not a grading to see if they are the ultimate street warrior its a test to see if they can do techniques that they have been taught in the way that they have been taught.
I agree that this is all valid in learning to use the techniques live, but then the only way of being 100% sure that the technique works is to use it live and no matter what you do in a grading it won't be real. I'm not really ready to go down the local rough houses and invite all the local nutters into class and tell them to attack my students. But thats the only true way to know if they will work. Its a testing not a streetfight or am i misinterpretting this thread?????????????? :confused:

[KSW_123]

I am not suggesting that we take it to streetfight level. For my own practice I break down technigue practice into five levels before I even consider being able to do it live. They are all safe and fun. My point is if you are going test based on skill then what was suggested is my opponion one small part of the picture even before you get to free sparring with techniques.

[psbn matt]

if you have spent the last 4 hours doing a hard testing the last thing you should be doing when both you and your partner are physicaly tired, is try to apply techniques realisticaly. this is how serious injuries can occur. think about it, your tired you consentration is going, you haven't as much control as normal and your timing could be out. would you really want someone like that trying to break your wrist/arm?
not me mate.
a testing is a testing of knowledge, fitness and spirit. pracitcal application is for the safety of the class room.

[KSW_123]

if you have spent the last 4 hours doing a hard testing the last thing you should be doing when both you and your partner are physicaly tired, is try to apply techniques realisticaly. this is how serious injuries can occur. think about it, your tired you consentration is going, you haven't as much control as normal and your timing could be out. would you really want someone like that trying to break your wrist/arm?
not me mate.
a testing is a testing of knowledge, fitness and spirit. pracitcal application is for the safety of the class room.
I agree with you. I did not suggest that skill testing is even valuable during a test. I personally don't believe that it is. The reason I think this is that a qualified instructor only needs a passing glance to see if your technique is any good or not. He can do that in class, and only recommend you to test when he thinks you are ready. I think testing is for scraping the bottom of the barrell. Test to see if you have the will continue even when you are exhausted.

If for some reason skill testing is necessary, say because the guy saying yes or no has never seen you before. Then put the skill testing at the beginning and test on more than one dimension.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Is testing even necessary?

[Chris J.]

OK...
Yong Sul Choi was the person who created Hapki-do. He stated that he had been the only practitioner who had ever learned all the Daito-Ryu techniques, numbering in the thousands. The truth is stranger than fiction.

Choi actually never even went to Japan to study Daito-Ryu, it was Shoto-Kan to begin with and only for a short time at that. His Claims that he trained Daito-Ryu were denied by Uesheba, who had been present at the school during all those years claimed, and Uesheba denied ever having seen Choi once at the school training. So where did he get his ideas?

It turns out that his boss at the place he worked had studied Judo. The two traded ideas and the result was the mixture of grappling and striking that people now call Hapkido. Again, Shoto-kan in its simplified form had many things lacking that had once been in the older Okinawan Kempo. A few of those things had been used in the creation of Judo, and Choi retrofitted his art with what he could.

Many TKD praqctitioners are attempting to make their art 'honest' by putting in bits and pieces of other arts, grappling from various Jiu-Jutsu styles, throws taken from Aikido, etc. Aikido throws are intended to reduce the possibility of harm to the opponent, allowing them to breakfall or roll out. The older Kempo used brutal throws that intentionally made such recoveries impossible.

I always say, why bother to re-create the wheel? The old one works as well as a wheel can work already. Put flat sides on it and it may still work, but not very well.

-Chris A. Johnston

[digitaltaoist]

why shotokan is being pushed so vigorously on a kuk sool won forum is beyond me -- evidently just to make sure that we all understand the "obvious" point: since shotokan is where everything came from anyway, we should all throw our black dobohks away and pull on a white gi.

i can't help but be reminded of a story in robert smith & don draeger's excellent book asian fighting arts -- robert smith was showing a film to a bunch of chinese boxers which was of a demonstration by high level japanese karate masters, at the end of the film, one of the boxers (i think maybe wang shu-jin of bagua/xingyi fame, but not really sure) summed it all up by telling smith that, "karate is rudimentary shaolin suitable only for children"

but maybe a more applicable quote: "never try to teach a pig to sing, it will waste you time and it will only annoy the pig"

[Choiyoungwoo]

OK...
Yong Sul Choi was the person who created Hapki-do. He stated that he had been the only practitioner who had ever learned all the Daito-Ryu techniques, numbering in the thousands. The truth is stranger than fiction.

Choi actually never even went to Japan to study Daito-Ryu, it was Shoto-Kan to begin with and only for a short time at that. His Claims that he trained Daito-Ryu were denied by Uesheba, who had been present at the school during all those years claimed, and Uesheba denied ever having seen Choi once at the school training. So where did he get his ideas?

It turns out that his boss at the place he worked had studied Judo. The two traded ideas and the result was the mixture of grappling and striking that people now call Hapkido. Again, Shoto-kan in its simplified form had many things lacking that had once been in the older Okinawan Kempo. A few of those things had been used in the creation of Judo, and Choi retrofitted his art with what he could.

Many TKD praqctitioners are attempting to make their art 'honest' by putting in bits and pieces of other arts, grappling from various Jiu-Jutsu styles, throws taken from Aikido, etc. Aikido throws are intended to reduce the possibility of harm to the opponent, allowing them to breakfall or roll out. The older Kempo used brutal throws that intentionally made such recoveries impossible.

I always say, why bother to re-create the wheel? The old one works as well as a wheel can work already. Put flat sides on it and it may still work, but not very well.

-Chris A. Johnston
First of all we are not TKD..But..Assuming that all that is true, i can understand your suppositions about how korean TKD/TSD may have been very affected by this.. KSW and TKD are clearly not from the same base as almost nothing between them is similar except for nomenclature. The Sholin influence in KSW is VERY obvious, The common origins with Hapikido is admittedly likely, but that is but a fraction of the scope of KSW. You sound as if there is no possibility for influence other than that from Japan. Chances are that is not possible, or even likely considering the physical connection to china. I agree about the difference in the brutality of the older Kempo throws compared to Aikido. Those types of things are certainly not lost in ksw as there are minor canges that can be made to KSW skills that are equally impossible to do safely and result in horrible injuries or worse. I really like the "OLD" styles you refer to but....To comply to your analogy ... Keep using your round stone wheel and I will use my Michelins ........everything must evolve.

[Chris J.]

Hi,
I liked your message. Teaching the pigs to sing, DOES seem futile. And much of Karate is, as it was described, rudimentary Shao-Lin. One needs to look to what came before karate, from a time when it was used daily for real survival. This was a unique and practical aspect of the original Shao-Lin.

The discussion of Shoto-Kan came from the origin of TKD and thereby the rest of the whole Korean art system as having been largely from Shoto-Kan, which was oversimplified to begin with. I am not saying that you are pigs and that you should learn to sing. ;) Although the sheer audacity of such a comment would seem extremely humerous. I am, however, suggesting that you all look to older arts for better information, as I did when I supplemented my Shito-Ryu training with the Okinawan Kempo of Oyata. There really is a whole world of more effective fighting to be found in the older methods that come from a time when it was really used.

I guess if one listens to enough pigs they eventually seem like they are singing. :(

-Chris J.

why shotokan is being pushed so vigorously on a kuk sool won forum is beyond me -- evidently just to make sure that we all understand the "obvious" point: since shotokan is where everything came from anyway, we should all throw our black dobohks away and pull on a white gi.

i can't help but be reminded of a story in robert smith & don draeger's excellent book asian fighting arts -- robert smith was showing a film to a bunch of chinese boxers which was of a demonstration by high level japanese karate masters, at the end of the film, one of the boxers (i think maybe wang shu-jin of bagua/xingyi fame, but not really sure) summed it all up by telling smith that, "karate is rudimentary shaolin suitable only for children"

but maybe a more applicable quote: "never try to teach a pig to sing, it will waste you time and it will only annoy the pig"

[digitaltaoist]

i actually have a lot of respect for the kempo of oyata (i assume you are talking about seiyu oyata -- not sure about the spelling). worked out with some of his senior students when i was in college and found that many of the techniques and theories were surprisingly similar to kuk sool won (even the same sub-groups of buddhist, family and royal court martial arts but from an okinawan perspective). the tuite techniques were almost identical to our kuk sool joint-locking and the pressure point theory was similar as well. a complete system, just like kuk sool won.

i actually have always used motobo-ryu okinawa-te (that is what it was called -- i think -- back in the 70s when i worked out those guys) as an example that ANY complete martial arts system will cover basically the same material -- the only real difference is the 'flavor' of the style. kuk sool won, oyata kempo, many of the shaolin systems fall into this category -- when styles start to 'specialize,' though, they limit themselves (judo primarily throwing & grappling, karate primarily striking, tkd/tsd primarily kicking, etc.). i think any complete martial arts 'system' (as opposed to a more limited 'style') is beneficial.

remember the definition of a specialist is 'someone who knows more and more about less and less until finally he knows everything about nothing at all.' :)

The thing is to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.' -- harry anderson

[AirNick]

Can someone please tell me why this forum never seems to go more than one or two months without someone coming on here and telling us how 'flawed' our art is and how 'true' theirs is?

You don't see any of us going on to other forums saying 'our art is better than yours'. We are here and we like it, deal with it.

Also, has it ever occured to you that we actually know this stuff already?

[davefly76]

Can someone please tell me why this forum never seems to go more than one or two months without someone coming on here and telling us how 'flawed' our art is and how 'true' theirs is?

You don't see any of us going on to other forums saying 'our art is better than yours'. We are here and we like it, deal with it.

Also, has it ever occured to you that we actually know this stuff already?


thank you, and one further note..


























WE DON'T CARE!!!!

:)

[Choiyoungwoo]

Let these guys post......how is it going to hurt. They may have a good contribution!! If not, Don't let it bother you. I know it irritates some of you but you cannot let it show. Just deal with it politely and move on... Think of it as sparring, never show emotion, especially anger/frustation. Try to learn from every experience. Make it you part of your shim gong sool.

[Silentmonk]

Hi,
I am, however, suggesting that you all look to older arts for better information, as I did when I supplemented my Shito-Ryu training with the Okinawan Kempo of Oyata. There really is a whole world of more effective fighting to be found in the older methods that come from a time when it was really used.

-Chris J.

Ok I've just read this page of posts and this struck me as strange. "There is a whole world of more effective fighting to be found in the older methods that come from a time when it was really used." Hmmmmm can't actually remember the last time i saw men riding down streets weilding swords and spears and therefore any traditional art that was designed to be a self protection system for a battlefield based in these days is gonna teach me jack **** about fighting. No matter whether it can be traced back to the big bang. I suggest you go ask people that actually have experience of the world today if you want to learn a method of effective fighting. Discuss oh the monk stirs the hornets nest again. :)

[Choiyoungwoo]

Ok I've just read this page of posts and this struck me as strange. "There is a whole world of more effective fighting to be found in the older methods that come from a time when it was really used." Hmmmmm can't actually remember the last time i saw men riding down streets weilding swords and spears and therefore any traditional art that was designed to be a self protection system for a battlefield based in these days is gonna teach me jack **** about fighting. No matter whether it can be traced back to the big bang. I suggest you go ask people that actually have experience of the world today if you want to learn a method of effective fighting. Discuss oh the monk stirs the hornets nest again. :)


But Monk ....thats exactly the kind of system you study........?!?!?!?

[Silentmonk]

But Monk ....thats exactly the kind of system you study........?!?!?!?

No its the art i train in, it also the art that i have been doing for 15 years and hold a second degree in now lets see .....4 four a 1st ....3 for a second ....4 for a third ....yep by my calculations if i had followed the study pattern of the system next year i should have my fourth.I wont have it. :) I went and learnt something totally different to learn how to defend myself on the streets. I went and asked peple who were current, i went and studied wth them. I train in Kuk Sool cos it keeps me fit it incorporates a lot of kicking and joint locks so keeps my eye in with body mechanics. i train totally different for life. Its a good martial arts system, i just find it funny when people say its rubbish because it wasn't actually used on a battlefield somewhere. Am sure somewhere someone got kicked, someone got punched, someone got eye gouged etc etc etc bet the person doing it wasn't worried whether they were doing an art that was taught to them by someone directly descended from god knows who or whether it was something they picked up in the playground all they cared was that they were alive. All i care about now is that its my hobby and keeps me fit and mobile. What changes to these facts whether its a million years old or 5 mins ????? :D

[KSW_KJN]

No its the art i train in, it also the art that i have been doing for 15 years and hold a second degree in now lets see .....4 four a 1st ....3 for a second ....4 for a third ....yep by my calculations if i had followed the study pattern of the system next year i should have my fourth.I wont have it. :) I went and learnt something totally different to learn how to defend myself on the streets. I went and asked peple who were current, i went and studied wth them. I train in Kuk Sool cos it keeps me fit it incorporates a lot of kicking and joint locks so keeps my eye in with body mechanics. i train totally different for life. Its a good martial arts system, i just find it funny when people say its rubbish because it wasn't actually used on a battlefield somewhere. Am sure somewhere someone got kicked, someone got punched, someone got eye gouged etc etc etc bet the person doing it wasn't worried whether they were doing an art that was taught to them by someone directly descended from god knows who or whether it was something they picked up in the playground all they cared was that they were alive. All i care about now is that its my hobby and keeps me fit and mobile. What changes to these facts whether its a million years old or 5 mins ????? :D

Monk, et al.
I'm with you on this one. Any art that stagnates is doomed to lose its effectiveness. I started learning KSW many moons ago. I also had a few opportunities to learn some things from some other specialized people as part of my role in training certain members of the U.S. military. I will tell you that adaptation of what you learn in KSW or other arts helps. I have seen several arts claim that they were the precursor to KSW. Considering how many masters learn MA, it wouldn't honestly surprise me. Mooye Dobo Tongji, one of the manuals used in the founding of much of traditional Korean MA, is based on Chinese documents. Honestly, I will tell you that I have and will continue to incorporate some techniques I have learned in my other studies that I have found to be effective. Many of them are practical applications of things a student learns in KSW and already have a foundation in once I begin to instruct the student in application of these other things. However, I am very selective about the students I chose to teach those things to. As far as martial arts is concerned, there are many overlaps. What does it really matter, except out of ego or curiousity, who first thought of ki bon soo #11, or goh geup sohn mok soo #4, etc? If you feel your MA is better, more power to you. ;)

[Choiyoungwoo]

If KSW doesn't evolve it will also be doomed to a fate of slow decay. It seems rather strong at the moment in that its growing. But is it getting stronger or only bigger? which can bring us back to this thread, .... is it too easy to gain belts....? Do we stick with old standards that tend to limit growth but also tend to ensure higher quality, or do we apply the modern industry standards that allow for growth but tend to have little checks and balances on quality, is there a happy medium, or another alternative? It seems that WKSA clearly wants the growth, and has never denied rank to folks with the barest of minimum skills, but the system still puts out some quality masters as well. and the same is generally true for most of the Dan ranks. So ....is it too easy???? What is the concensus of the forum???

I think a balance of growth and Quality must be the answer. Any Ideas??

[AZeitung]

OK...
Yong Sul Choi was the person who created Hapki-do. He stated that he had been the only practitioner who had ever learned all the Daito-Ryu techniques, numbering in the thousands. The truth is stranger than fiction.

Choi actually never even went to Japan to study Daito-Ryu, it was Shoto-Kan to begin with and only for a short time at that. His Claims that he trained Daito-Ryu were denied by Uesheba, who had been present at the school during all those years claimed, and Uesheba denied ever having seen Choi once at the school training. So where did he get his ideas?

It turns out that his boss at the place he worked had studied Judo. The two traded ideas and the result was the mixture of grappling and striking that people now call Hapkido. Again, Shoto-kan in its simplified form had many things lacking that had once been in the older Okinawan Kempo. A few of those things had been used in the creation of Judo, and Choi retrofitted his art with what he could.

But Judo is really quite different from Kuk Sool. A lot of the techniques are very similar to aikijujutsu, though. Choi probably studied Daito Ryu, but probably not from Takeda, like he claimed. I don't see any way all of the techniques in Hapkido could have come from Judo. Although a few throws have been added and subtracted from Judo over the years, there are only 67 (I think. It's 60-something, anyway) in the whole system. And it doesn't have any of the joint locks of Hapkido.

[AirNick]

I think a balance of growth and Quality must be the answer. Any Ideas??
I do agree with you Choi. My opinion is that the responsibility lies with individual school instructors to be honest. I think everybody needs to maintain the standards at their own club and not promote just anybody who takes the test. I understand that it's not easy to fail people but it is necessary at times. At the end of the day, it reflects badly on you as a school owner if you have people at a high rank who are worse than some of the white belts.

I don't think people should be put forward for a testing unless the instructor thinks that they are good enough to be the next belt. Maybe give them a heads up a month before or something giving them time to shape up etc.

[davefly76]

on a slightly different note.

i believe that club gradings should be performed in front of instuctors fom other clubs. when i was a coloured belt i tested in front of all sorts of different instructors, with my own instructor basically just observing. this made me more determined to do well and try and impress.

now i find that students from my club are only being tested by the instuctors from within the club. personally i think they should go to other clubs with different instructors to give them a bit more imputous (sp) to do well as they will be under pressure to perform in front of people they don't know.

pretty much like taking your driving test with an examiner rather than the person who taught you to drive.

at least that way i passed my gradings because someone other than my instuctor, who doesn't know me, thought i was good enough to promote to the next rank. which gave me a lot of satifaction.

what do you think? discuss.

:)

[psbn matt]

i agree, ihave tested in front of a wide varity of instructors all through my belts, and as a school owner i regulaly try and get guest instructors down for my school testings, and send my brown belts out to other (master) testings for exactly that reason.
and a bad student at any belt only represents a bad instructor

[Silentmonk]

I remember once when AirNick had one of his friends come over from america to stay. he had done no kuk sool but was asleep on the benches by the side of the testing area. All the students came in and were asking everyone who's that. So Darren made an announcement that we were really lucky because SBN (can't remember the guys name) had flown over to see Nick and was going to observe our testing that day everyone immediately was 10 times more worried it was hilarious. I think we've done that a couple of times now when people have sat at the table, we lend them one of our uniforms, who haven't actually ever even taken a class, They don't call any of the test they don't mark, they just sit there and shake their heads a few times.It works a treat for focusing a students mind. :D :D Guess that trick will never work again :D :D

[Choiyoungwoo]

on a slightly different note.

i believe that club gradings should be performed in front of instuctors fom other clubs. when i was a coloured belt i tested in front of all sorts of different instructors, with my own instructor basically just observing. this made me more determined to do well and try and impress.

now i find that students from my club are only being tested by the instuctors from within the club. personally i think they should go to other clubs with different instructors to give them a bit more imputous (sp) to do well as they will be under pressure to perform in front of people they don't know.

pretty much like taking your driving test with an examiner rather than the person who taught you to drive.

at least that way i passed my gradings because someone other than my instuctor, who doesn't know me, thought i was good enough to promote to the next rank. which gave me a lot of satifaction.

what do you think? discuss.

:)

Thats exactly what is forced at BB testing @wksa HQ and it is a total clusterF*#K, there is 1 "judge" for every 15-20 people, the judges rarely know who they are grading, there are no grades, the test forms are never returned to the students, there is no feed back, there is no failure, or passing , or promotion @ the exam. .......


i agree, ihave tested in front of a wide varity of instructors all through my belts, and as a school owner i regulaly try and get guest instructors down for my school testings, and send my brown belts out to other (master) testings for exactly that reason.
and a bad student at any belt only represents a bad instructor


ok ,,,,I'm the devils advocate here

So you let other instructors determine if your students will pass or fail?
And all of the students that are "bad" have no responsibility for thier own training. Its all up to you ,,,,,so no matter how bad they are its not their fault?? I think thats too easy on the student.

[Silentmonk]

Thats exactly what is forced at BB testing @wksa HQ and it is a total clusterF*#K, there is 1 "judge" for every 15-20 people, the judges rarely know who they are grading, there are no grades, the test forms are never returned to the students, there is no feed back, there is no failure, or passing , or promotion @ the exam. .......

I am in agreement with choi on the point that there does tend to be too few on a testing panel to see if everyone is performing well at testings.I think it is assumed that the student is good enough to perform everything really well and that is the only reason they have been put forward for testing. This i find a dangerous assumption too, and it all goes back to a comment on another thread of "quality and quantity". I honestly don't believe that some instructors should run their own schools so therefore the quality of the student that has been put forward isn't really that that should be put forward and it can snowball from there. I remember in my first national testing for blackbelt (1995) when we were asked to do forms and someone couldn't remember Ki Cho Hyung, now this wasn't nerves he just could not remember it. He was given lots of chances he didn't know it. Now i don't blame him for being at the test though he was not being honest with himself. That person should never have got to the position of testing for his belt until he was ready. I also know of several people that have actually failed their Blackbelt tests only for them to walk up and receive their belt. I have been told by the people conducting the tests so that is fact. I think it is hard to fail people for a test when you have already listed their names on your arts web sites as promotions for the year when they haven't even taken their final test. Hows that work???
On his second note i can see what he is saying there to some degree too. I know what everybody in our class does well and does badly. Now i know if that person has improved, is trying their best, I know if they have an injury and how badly that realy affects their ability to perform something. It can be hard to actually know how hard someone who you don't know is actually trying. You can only assume they are trying as hard as you would in a testing if you don't know them, and that they are giving their best. I actually find that i try harder to impress people that have had a direct influence on my path than i do others who do not know me. I know my instructors can do everything that they ask me to do. I have seen many people at national testings ask people to do stuff that they can not even do themselves. I think you get a truer reflection of someones actual ability and effort if you know the person. Also something else that we have started to implement is feed back we do try to tell everyone where they need to improve and all of my last testings that i took for my last belt involved me being sat down and told what i did well and what i needed to improve on. Though four of those were where there were only 3 of us testing and 1 or 2 people judging now that means very little gets missed. I realise at the moment that this can be very hard to achieve but it is up to ourselfs to make this so. More people must be willing to go to gradings and take part on testing panels. At my last testing I specifically asked one of the forum members if he could come sit on my testing panel because he was one of the people that had been a direct influence on my journey, When we got there he ended up having to take the junior blackbelt test, Now this was due to a lack of instructors at a national testing. True a lot of people were testing themselves, however this was a weekend and several people had just returned having received their new masters belts from korea. Only one of these new masters was there. And all but one of them live a similar distance from the testing as him. See if the support doesn't come from above and we don't take an interest in the standard of the people coming through the ranks it is no one elses fault but our own as to the standard that the art produces. Sorry this post went on a lot. :D

[KSWMark]

Yeh there is always the problem that people aren't feeling up to it or have recently come back from an injury, if the instructor doesn't know them then i doubt they will know this, it might just be that the student is having a bad day, should it be fair that a student is held back from what he/she SHOULD be learning just because they weren't up to thier best for a couple of hours? Even a bad nights sleep can seriously effect someones performance and a judge that doesn't know the student may think its the best they have to offer and so fail them, i don't like the idea of gradings they have nothing to offer, it should be judged on the students performance as a whole, the only thing a grading does is make those that dont usually put the effort in try harder whereas they should be trying thier hardest each and every lesson.

[davefly76]

So you let other instructors determine if your students will pass or fail?
And all of the students that are "bad" have no responsibility for thier own training. Its all up to you ,,,,,so no matter how bad they are its not their fault?? I think thats too easy on the student.

i think that ksn matt has the same view that i do.

if we want kuk sool to be of a uniform standard then surely we should have students who are judged by instructors who can see them perform with no prejudice on who passes or fails.

obviously we all have off days in our training due to injury or illness but that can be accounted for when we do gradings as long as it is made known at the start of the test.

another point..

if instructors are putting poor students forward for promotion to blackbelt that simply aren't good enough or don't show the correct amount of ettiquet, effort and commitment during a grading, then surely they should be held accountable. not for the students performance or skill level but for recommending them in the first place. should there be some sort of instructors test?

and as i understand it, anyone over the rank of DBN can open a club and doesn't have to take a formal exam or training course. isn't this too soon? after all they would have been training themselves for around 3 years.

:)

[KSW_123]

Once the testing becomes subjective then there is always going to be a problem with people feeling that others are not good enough for their belt. This problem goes hand in hand with recognizing the individual. That we are different, different strengths and weakness's etc... We invite everyone, young, old, in shape, out of shape, male, female, etc to join Kuk Sool. If we have a uniform measurable testing standard then what would it be? I don't have a clue. I personally find this whole issue confusing, frustrating, and depressing. Basically because I don't know how to sovle the problems that I percieve. Part of me tells me that tests should be measurable. Then count up the score and decide pass or fail. Then another part says, maybe that person will never be able to do that skill, and why does it even matter? This is why I favor testing somone till they drop, at least if they drop then they tried their absolute best.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Once the testing becomes subjective then there is always going to be a problem with people feeling that others are not good enough for their belt. This problem goes hand in hand with recognizing the individual. That we are different, different strengths and weakness's etc... We invite everyone, young, old, in shape, out of shape, male, female, etc to join Kuk Sool. If we have a uniform measurable testing standard then what would it be? I don't have a clue. I personally find this whole issue confusing, frustrating, and depressing. Basically because I don't know how to sovle the problems that I percieve. Part of me tells me that tests should be measurable. Then count up the score and decide pass or fail. Then another part says, maybe that person will never be able to do that skill, and why does it even matter? This is why I favor testing somone till they drop, at least if they drop then they tried their absolute best.


Measurable tests would be optimal but it would mean turning away people. Which WKSA will not do. Basically anyone that memorizes the syllabus and can reproduce a reasonable likeness of the skills will pass. That allows the effort to be the standard rather than the achievement of skill. Is that enough? Then it's all about pride. But what would you do if it was your mom or dad. would you fail them ? The standard must be relative. I think it's as good as it's going to get. Think of your students like extended family, know them well and pass them according to what they have accomplished, encourage more training if you think they will not do well, help them and be honest and sincere. only then are you worthy of being a teacher. Will you do it?

[KSW_123]

There is also the problem of people who are naturally gifted that cannot respect someone of higher rank. For the sake of arguement let's assume that skill doubles every rank that you pass and that person A started with a skill of 2, person B with a skill of 10. Person A is now a 6th degree, so his skill would be 64. He did his job, he got twice as good for every rank. But person B is a fourth degree who also did his job, his skill is 80. He is technically better than A. I think person A still needs to respect the rank of person B.
I think that there are problems all around. Some people maybe shouldn't have their rank. Some should be pateint to learn even when they awesome, and some should respect others even if they are technically better. It is the multidimensioallity of this problem that makes it so difficult.

[davefly76]

when i say uniform standard i don't mean that everyone should be able to kick high (over their own chest height), do double back flips or aerial cartwheels or anything that meant you would have had to start ma's when you were 5 years old.

i'm talking about being able to every kick with the correct technique and a good amount of power, being able to perform any hyung with correct stance (not necessarily ultra low) allowing it to flow from one block/strike/kick to the next without stopping to think, being able to perform the majority of your techs without thought. although bearing in mind these are usually done at the end of the test when you are physically and mentally tired.

obviously things like age and physical ability should be taken into account but everyone should be able to perform all aspects of ksw to a minimum standard.

[JSun]

should there be some sort of instructors test?

Absolutely! I'm a firm believer that would be an excellent way to increase the quality of students learning Kuk Sool.

[ember]

I don't meant to re-open the thread, but thought I should mention one important idea:

When it comes to an injury or other restriction, you can have their instructor write a note on the testing form listing the restriction(s), and then test around it.

I tested under some serious restrictions in November: had to substitute a step, slide, or skip kick for any jump kick, slightly modify the forms to avoid jumping, skip the nak bub portion that time, etc. It was sort of hard, but I had every intention of sticking to my limits so the recovery would be as short as possible.

By February I was back to full.

Yeh there is always the problem that people aren't feeling up to it or have recently come back from an injury, if the instructor doesn't know them then i doubt they will know this, it might just be that the student is having a bad day, should it be fair that a student is held back from what he/she SHOULD be learning just because they weren't up to thier best for a couple of hours? Even a bad nights sleep can seriously effect someones performance and a judge that doesn't know the student may think its the best they have to offer and so fail them, i don't like the idea of gradings they have nothing to offer, it should be judged on the students performance as a whole, the only thing a grading does is make those that dont usually put the effort in try harder whereas they should be trying thier hardest each and every lesson.

[CJ]

Or even better yet just wait till you are all better.
The hole idea is to see what you are made of.

[You Won Hwa]

There is also the problem of people who are naturally gifted that cannot respect someone of higher rank.
I don't know anyone in KSW like that. Mostly, I've seen respect up and down the ranks. I've only seen a lack of respect at (nearly) the same level, or going down, and very little of that. (Well, there is a junior here or there....)

I find if people of a high rank offer respect to those of lower rank, those of lower rank learn to respect those in the higher ranks easier and quicker. Also, the older a person is, the more respect they will give everyone, no matter the rank or age. Too, the ones with phenomenal skill seem to have the most respect to offer to others, no matter the rank or age.

[Thomas]

if instructors are putting poor students forward for promotion to blackbelt that simply aren't good enough or don't show the correct amount of ettiquet, effort and commitment during a grading, then surely they should be held accountable. not for the students performance or skill level but for recommending them in the first place. should there be some sort of instructors test?

Something else that can be done is "maintanence testing", where black belts (all ranks) have to get out on the floor once/6 months with a testing group and do the test themselves (with their own requirements and with previous skills). There's no fee and no promotion but should be required at least 2 or 3 times before the next promotion test. In this way, if it's done openly, everyone gets to see what the balck belts can do and they provide a good model for the students. Done privately, it gives the other black belts a chance to offer ideas, suggestions, and learn from each other.

and as i understand it, anyone over the rank of DBN can open a club and doesn't have to take a formal exam or training course. isn't this too soon? after all they would have been training themselves for around 3 years.

Personally I think "instructors" should serve a kind of internship and then be appointed to the various levels (e.g. assistant instructor, full instructor, senior instructor, etc.). It could be tied to a minimum rank but there's no denying that some people are "made" to be instructors and others aren't. I'd also like to see a minimu time required in training before being able to open a school.

[Grippereeno]

My instructor makes the blackbelts test regularly at our club i remember him sayin once thats the way Kuk Sa Nym wanted it in order to 'Keep the quality'

[CJ]

My instructor makes the blackbelts test regularly at our club i remember him sayin once thats the way Kuk Sa Nym wanted it in order to 'Keep the quality'

What would happen if they did not pass

[davefly76]

Something else that can be done is "maintanence testing", where black belts (all ranks) have to get out on the floor once/6 months with a testing group and do the test themselves (with their own requirements and with previous skills).

this is something i have suggested to my instructor.

i promoted in june 2005 and therefore have approximatly 4 years before my next promotion. which means i won't have to do any official tests for around 3 years.

i have decided that from the beginning of 2007 i want to join in, say every other, club grading to help prepare myself for my larger official gradings.

:)

[ember]

Oh really?

I think in general you are correct. However I can think of one or two exceptions right away.

Also, the older a person is, the more respect they will give everyone, no matter the rank or age.

[Unknown Entity]

I've found throughout my experiences in Kuk Sool and life that age, rank, ability have no direct link to the level of respect that they display.

I've seen white belts that have better etiquette and show more respect than various levels of black bets, both young and old.

Its one of these things where there isn't a set standard on it because everyone is different. You will find in all aspects of life people that will display excellent etiquette and show the utmost respect to everyone when its least expected yet you will find in people who should know better acting like spoiled brats.

Respect is a 2 way thing. It should never be expected! It should be earned from both the student and the instructor. The student earns the respect of the instructor by training hard and by doing the best they can do and in return the instructor earns the respect of the student by leading by example as well as teaching not only kicking and punching but moral values and guidance!

Just my 2 cents

[You Won Hwa]

You will find in all aspects of life people that will display excellent etiquette and show the utmost respect to everyone when its least expected yet you will find in people who should know better acting like spoiled brats.
LOL. I've noticed that! Well, we work for balance. Even people holding high belt levels are people, with all the problems people have. At least, by the time they have achieved some rank, they should have at least LOOKED at all their problems, if not overcome most. Progress, not perfection. You need to look at how far people have come in their lives, not just where they are on the road.

Respect is a 2 way thing. It should never be expected! It should be earned from both the student and the instructor. The student earns the respect of the instructor by training hard and by doing the best they can do and in return the instructor earns the respect of the student by leading by example as well as teaching not only kicking and punching but moral values and guidance!
I understand in Kuk Sool Won it is people's rank and training we are expected to respect, not the person. However, the high ranking people I've had the opportunity to interact with on a personal basis have indeed been very nice people, well deserving of respect.

Getting back to the topic of being too easy to gain belts in WKSA, my understanding is that it is much easier in many other styles. In Hapkido, one can get a black belt in 18 months. As far as difficulties of tests, I understand that it is only relatively recently that difficult tests have come to be expected. Masters in many diciplines want to see during the testing if the student has memorized the material. Endurance training is for the do-jang, not the testing arena. If people in WKSA are getting black belts who don't know the material, perhaps the instructors and school owners need to look closer at the students they are recommending for promotion. And perhaps those complaining don't know or appreiciate how far that student has come.

[AZeitung]

Getting back to the topic of being too easy to gain belts in WKSA, my understanding is that it is much easier in many other styles. In Hapkido, one can get a black belt in 18 months.

Be careful when making statements like that. Hapkido, unlike Kuk Sool Won, is not a single unified organization. Just because there's one Hapkido dojang that gives away belts for people with little training doesn't mean that's the norm at most Hapkido schools. Pop down to the Hapkido forum, and I'm sure most of the people there will tell you that's not the case where they train.

Even in Kuk Sool Won, that time frame isn't exactly unheard of. KSWPaul got his black belt after about 24 months or so (two years).

Now, as for being easier than in other styles, 3-5 years seems to be the norm for a lot of styles, especially TKD. This seems to be about the equivalent training time for Kuk Sool - but training time isn't that great of an indicator as to the amount of work that you've put in to getting your belt. Someone could spend 10 years learning nothing at all, or two years training really hard at different schools. Which one is worth more.

In Brazilian Jiujutsu, not only does it take upwards of 10 years to get a black belt, but you have to actually be able to win competitions.

Of course, someone with exceptional tallent and plent of time and money to train, like BJ Penn can still manage to pull it off in about three years. So the amount of time it takes someone to get his blackbelt isn't really a good indicator of how much he deserves one.

[CJ]

Be careful when making statements like that. Hapkido, unlike Kuk Sool Won, is not a single unified organization. Just because there's one Hapkido dojang that gives away belts for people with little training doesn't mean that's the norm at most Hapkido schools. Pop down to the Hapkido forum, and I'm sure most of the people there will tell you that's not the case where they train.

Even in Kuk Sool Won, that time frame isn't exactly unheard of. KSWPaul got his black belt after about 24 months or so (two years).

Now, as for being easier than in other styles, 3-5 years seems to be the norm for a lot of styles, especially TKD. This seems to be about the equivalent training time for Kuk Sool - but training time isn't that great of an indicator as to the amount of work that you've put in to getting your belt. Someone could spend 10 years learning nothing at all, or two years training really hard at different schools. Which one is worth more.

In Brazilian Jiujutsu, not only does it take upwards of 10 years to get a black belt, but you have to actually be able to win competitions.

Of course, someone with exceptional tallent and plent of time and money to train, like BJ Penn can still manage to pull it off in about three years. So the amount of time it takes someone to get his blackbelt isn't really a good indicator of how much he deserves one.
I'm with you on this one

[You Won Hwa]

Hapkido, unlike Kuk Sool Won, is not a single unified organization.
I didn't say that everyone got one in 18 months, but that it could happen. I think I read that a Hapkido first degree was possible in 18 months with extra effort beyond average, with attending a certian number of classes, higher than the average.

Nor did I say that every Hapkido school was the same. We can't even say that about Kuk Sool Won, which is supposed to be all the same.

Even in Kuk Sool Won, that time frame isn't exactly unheard of. KSWPaul got his black belt after about 24 months or so (two years).
And that isn't to say he doesn't deserve it. But that doesn't mean that I would be going around telling people that they could do that, either.

I'm sure his master/instructor thought he did, Kuk Sa Nym agreed, and I'm not going to disagree with that. Not that I have ANY evidence one way or the other!

In Brazilian Jiujutsu, not only does it take upwards of 10 years to get a black belt, but you have to actually be able to win competitions.
Of all the styles I've talked to practitioners about, Brazilian Jujitsu seems the most political, and the hardest to advance in. From what I have heard, regularly, color belts are the main teachers in a school.

I've heard in sumo wrestling, rank is solely a matter of winning. Don't recall what might be the minimum time frame for getting much rank.

So the amount of time it takes someone to get his blackbelt isn't really a good indicator of how much he deserves one.
People seem to think that because one person might be a "better martial artist" than someone else, that the other person doesn't deserve a black belt.

[AZeitung]

Of all the styles I've talked to practitioners about, Brazilian Jujitsu seems the most political, and the hardest to advance in. From what I have heard, regularly, color belts are the main teachers in a school.

You're kidding, right? You think BJJ is more political than KSW, or Korean arts in general?

In BJJ blue belt and up is instructor rank.

The point was, though, that even in BJJ, a very few exceptional people have done it in three years.


I didn't say that everyone got one in 18 months, but that it could happen. I think I read that a Hapkido first degree was possible in 18 months with extra effort beyond average, with attending a certian number of classes, higher than the average.

Nor did I say that every Hapkido school was the same. We can't even say that about Kuk Sool Won, which is supposed to be all the same.


Yes, but the way Hapkido is taught, the techniques taught, the amount of time it takes to get to various ranks, and even the number of belts can vary so drastically from school to school that just because it's possible to get to blackbelt in 18 months at one school doesn't even mean that another school would let you test for black belt after 18 months. What you're saying sounds like the policy of one particular school - or at best, one particular organization. And even at that, if it requires all that extra work, it doesn't mean that it's easier than getting a kuk sool black belt.



I've heard in sumo wrestling, rank is solely a matter of winning. Don't recall what might be the minimum time frame for getting much rank.

Sumo rankings are more like boxing titles than Kuk Sool belts. You have to defend your rank by winning matches. You start losing and you lose you rank. I don't think there's any minimum time frame, more likely a minimum number of matches that you have to win.

[AirNick]

Even in Kuk Sool Won, that time frame isn't exactly unheard of. KSWPaul got his black belt after about 24 months or so (two years).
How is that possible?

[Silentmonk]

How is that possible?

Wow that does seem incredibly quick. We have some people who test early at ours because of military movements and such, but they are required to have private lessons and all sorts to get upto standard. And even then noone to my knowledge has done it in 2 years. :eek:

[Grippereeno]

I heard from someone that competed this year in korea that the koreans can get a blackbelt in a year however they train everyday for about 6 hours a day or somethin like that.

In answer to CJ's question about failing. Thats yet to happen and the person is not actually testing to move ranks as such just being put through their paces physically and mentally and to check they are picking up anything new they have learned to a good standard

[You Won Hwa]

You're kidding, right? You think BJJ is more political than KSW, or Korean arts in general?
Maybe KWS higher belt ranks are more closed mouth, and don't discuss all the difficulties in promoting to the next belt rank as my friend is, who tells me all his problems, about how hw can submit peopel who outrank him on a regular basis, and they STILL, after lots of time, training, talking among themselves, won't give him another belt.

Those TKD people, they do have a hard time with organization. I'm not so sure a heirarchy like KSW is such a bad thing. It is hard to discuss TKD when there is so much politicing going on, but I've never heard anyone talk about how they can't test for a higher rank becuse of it. However, I'll grant that in listening to conversations about TKD politics, I'm listening to masters, and if listening to BJJ conversations about politics, I'm listening to color belts, so they would have a different take on things.

it doesn't mean that it's easier than getting a kuk sool black belt.
I believe we were discussing time.

[You Won Hwa]

You're kidding, right? You think BJJ is more political than KSW, or Korean arts in general?Now that you mention it, I've been told that Koreans are very war like. A master suggested to me that if Koreans could get along with each other, they would rule the world. As a people, they certainly have a fighting spirit. How many times have they been invaded? A thousand something?

[AZeitung]

I believe we were discussing time.
I thought we were discussing the subject of the thread.

[You Won Hwa]

I thought we were discussing the subject of the thread.I believe several people have mentioned that time on belt is only loosely related to how difficult it is to reach the next rank. It seems to me that these are related, but different. Mentioning the minimum amount of time advertised for length of time to black belt isn't the same as saying that it is EASY to do it.

[ember]

I believe several people have mentioned that time on belt is only loosely related to how difficult it is to reach the next rank. It seems to me that these are related, but different. Mentioning the minimum amount of time advertised for length of time to black belt isn't the same as saying that it is EASY to do it.

Don't expect too many takers. The subject is a dead topic. The ONLY reason it was brought back up was to mention the suggestion of restriction notes on testing forms.

See:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48589&page=2&pp=20

Particularly:


Originally Posted by emberKSW
I've found the circumstances of black belt testing to be quite fun, actually. It's not nearly as long a day, nor as exhausting, as I remember marching band Game Days being.



emberKSW please forgive me, this is not directed at you in the least..
.
There have been many threads like"too easy to gain belts" "is ksw getting stronger/weaker" etc I think her comments speak volumes about BB testing in KSW@ HQ.

And please move on. Thanks.

[Wolf]

How is that possible?
It's not a topic I discuss often because of the negative conotation that comes with getting a BB in a short time. But it happened because of a couple different things.
1) I had previous MA experience with TKD for basic striking and enough aikido to gain a beginners understanding of the principles of joint locks, throws and falling.
2) I worked extra time with my instructor in a one on one environment, and attended a lot of extra classes. I was at a university club so that was easier to do since I didn't have to pay more.
3) When I wasn't in class training, I was training a lot on my own as well (Basically at upwards of 5 days a week as an underbelt between class on personal training).
4) Lastly, I am a quick study. I wouldn't say I'm better or naturally gifted at what I do than anyone else in my club, I just learn quickly and retain what I learn really well.

All of those things combined to allow me to promote as quickly as I did. My club was not a blackbelt factory by any means. No other student that I am aware of ever promoted as quickly. I just worked harder, and practiced more, because I knew I was going to be moving away soon, and I wasn't sure how close to a school I would be. I hope that clears things up.