Street fighting VS Full Contact Sparring [Archive]

weepingpalm

17-Jun-2005, 09:42 PM

its clear to me, that every physical confrontation outside your school will be different. different people, different abillities, weaknesses etc. you cant predict a fight with a stranger. thats probably what people should learn first imo. also, when sparring with your training brothers, youre going to, over time become familiar with how they fight. youll learn their "tricks", remember though sparring is a tool, hopefull if you are in a street fight you can use what you have practiced. hope this helps at all.
also, i wouldn't recommend starting fights with hoodlums.

Taliar

17-Jun-2005, 10:09 PM

The advantages of street fighting are numerous and include, danger of exreme ass kicking, danger of large hospital bills, danger of vendetas, danger of large legal bills, and also risk of perlonged stay in a small room with 6'8" guy called Boris who wants you to be his special friend. :D

dee_mon

17-Jun-2005, 11:14 PM

taliar you forgot to mention danger of hoodlum pulling knife and stabbing you in the face/stomach/throat

the main thing i have learned from watching/being in some way involved in a street fight is how to not vomit while i hold my boyfriends cheek together because some knacker has stuck a bottle in his face.

Judderman

18-Jun-2005, 06:29 PM

[QUOTE=dee_mon]taliar you forgot to mention danger of hoodlum pulling knife and stabbing you in the face/stomach/throat[QUOTE]

or his/her friend(s)....

or searching for you later with a larger group of friends...

did someone mention the prison bit? Good.

Stick to full contact in training. God help you if you ever have to find out if you can cut it in a street brawl....

gogok.k

11-Jul-2005, 06:06 AM

True.... Anthing can happen!
Thats where you need to be aware of dangerous areas, that can easily be avoided as well as dangerous people.
Any street fight or simply just a fight can be by turns exiting and scary.

Jamesy

13-Jul-2005, 10:17 PM

[QUOTE=prince604]I was wondering what are the pros and cons between street fighting and full contact sparring? Also is there an advantage taking up street fights with hoodlums that i can gain that i couldn't gain in full contact sparring? What im really trying to say is is there something you can learn from a street fight or gain from it that you can't really get from full contact sparring?[/QUOTE

Street Fighting
Pros
You learn to fight in a reel situation (proper action and reaction)
You will lose the fear that may strick you if you randomly get mugged
Learn the effectiveness of your technique

Cons
Its dirty fight anything goes (no rules)
You could die go to hospital etc
You can't say stop I don't wanna do this anymore

New Guy

17-Jul-2005, 06:18 AM

Full Contact Sparring should have a postive, controll atmosphere under a legal environement, where as street fighting have a negative, un-controlled atmosphere and can be illegal depend on your intention and what you do.

I don't see any great benefit of picking fights on a street, sure it is real experience as far as your fighting skill goes... but MA isn't just all about fighting is it? So I think street fight is really something you should try to avoid.

slipthejab

17-Jul-2005, 09:17 AM

Jamesy

Street Fighting
Pros
You learn to fight in a reel situation (proper action and reaction)
You will lose the fear that may strick you if you randomly get mugged
Learn the effectiveness of your technique

lol... this must be your first barbeque!
What you've posted is nonsense.

The cons far outweigh any pro's. It sounds as if you haven't been through too many street fights.

The pro's you state are based on fallacy and myth. :bang:

Mufty

17-Jul-2005, 11:20 AM

I was wondering what are the pros and cons between street fighting and full contact sparring? Also is there an advantage taking up street fights with hoodlums that i can gain that i couldn't gain in full contact sparring? What im really trying to say is is there something you can learn from a street fight or gain from it that you can't really get from full contact sparring?

Obviously you are rash and head strong young padwar. Real life situations, are very very dangerouse, there is no referee, and the people involved have real deadly intentions towards each other it is not a game, also remember about concealed weapons, and any injuries sustained are potentionatly leathal, without instant treatment and triage on hand by the St John's etc.

Sparring is that just sparring, its fun, yep we get a blck eye or bloody nose's on occasions, it is done in a controled envrionment, and the people involved look as if they have deadly intentions towards each other, any injuries sustained are generally minor.

If you want to be scared a very lot indeed then join the armed forces and apply to be stationed in a war zone.

'Cold water fall under sit advice you go, enlightenment find you will'

CrowZer0

17-Jul-2005, 11:27 AM

Depends on how serious you are with your training, how much balls you have and how far you want to go, yes street fights are dangerous I myself have been stabbed in the hip, had my forearms take many slashes, had a metal pole smack me on my left elbow so the bone was bruised and I couldnt straighten it for weeks, and have had, hockey, cricket bats attack various parts of my body, after a while its the norm u get conditioned and you develop better reactions, of course if you have been applying martial arts theory into your street fights.

Timmy Boy

17-Jul-2005, 11:32 AM

Street fighting does provide valuable experience IMO. That's not to say I'm advocating it because of the cost, i.e. risk of serious injury or sometimes death, and of course legal consequences, but at the end of the day there's nothing like real experience to prepare you.

Hard sparring is, of course, a better option though. I've heard about some "street fighting" clubs where they just beat the crap out of each other every lesson - what's the point of training if the training itself puts you at more risk of injury? Better to compromise by sparring hard but with a set of rules to prevent any serious injury from happening. Also it gives you greater opportunity to learn how to apply your MA knowledge.

CrowZer0

17-Jul-2005, 11:33 AM

Oh yay:d I just realised it says "valued member" underneath my name! AWESOME

Peabody

17-Jul-2005, 12:03 PM

Why would you want to actively go streetfighting!? If someone attacks you 'on the street' then bad luck and I hope you kick their ass, but I think if you go looking for trouble then your life becomes that bit less enjoyable.

CrowZer0

17-Jul-2005, 12:10 PM

I have and live by a caveman theory.:) Makes me a hardnut, I didn't chose to get into those fights when I was younger, call it my bad luck and refusal to bow down to a bully, and of course over here that turns into a gang fight, and I believe my scent now just attracts fighters towards me so instead of being scared and trying to avoid these to no good end, I embrace it, and the more I fight the more experience and strength I gain, also it helps my training. I guess I was blessed with a quick wit and good rflexes froma young age, and my father and uncles always taught me to bow down to no one, honour comes before anything and the family name:). Something that was in no way forced upon me but something I live by!

oni_sensei

17-Jul-2005, 12:27 PM

How is not fighting a sign of being afraid? Sounds more like wisdom to me.

As for the topic: Full contact sparring is by far a much better choice with regards to training. For a start, it's not illegal. Second, you run a lower risk of enduring serious injury. You're meant to be training, not slamming people's heads into concrete. It'll never replace real combat, but it'll definitely help prepare you in so many ways. That's my view, at least.

NaughtyKnight

17-Jul-2005, 12:52 PM

I cant be botherd reading all the posts, this thread has popped up a thousand times before so I already know what its about.

So instead I'll answer the original questoin.

Full Contact Sparing vs Street Fighting.

They are no where near simular. Street fighting is people beating the living crap out of eachother. Sparing at your school is controlled and you dont aim to injure eachother. So which is better? Depends on what you want. If you want to die early, with a disfigured face, and spend a few years in jail on the way, then street fighting is fight up your alley. I can tell you that it isnt fun, it isnt glamouress. Dont belive what you see on movies or on TV. You may win a few times, but you will lose a street fight, and when you do, its going to be very unpleasent. If you do win, there is a huge chance that they will go after revenge. Usually with 5 of their mates with baseball bats. I got jumped at a train station after being in a fight only a few hours earlier and completely owning a guy. He came after me with 4 mates and the proceeded to beat the living crap out of me on an abandoned station.

Full Contact fighting is still controlled. Make no mistake, its as real as ma is gonna get. Its alot better than this crap point sparing and non contact sparing that are seen in places. You will learn what its like to have someone throwing a punch or kick at you with commitment, with the knowledge that your not going to get ko'd brutally and end up in hospital every lesson.

If you still have fantasys of getting into street fights, then give it a try. You may survive for a few years, but one day, your number will get called. Luckily for me I didnt end up destroying my life. I never recived a criminal record for all my shanigans and my face is still beautiful :D.

slipthejab

17-Jul-2005, 01:02 PM

I never recived a criminal record for all my shanigans and my face is still beautiful .

I am praying to thank baby Jesus on both of the above accounts. :D

slipthejab

17-Jul-2005, 01:04 PM

I have and live by a caveman theory. Makes me a hardnut, I didn't chose to get into those fights when I was younger, call it my bad luck and refusal to bow down to a bully, and of course over here that turns into a gang fight, and I believe my scent now just attracts fighters towards me so instead of being scared and trying to avoid these to no good end, I embrace it, and the more I fight the more experience and strength I gain, also it helps my training. I guess I was blessed with a quick wit and good rflexes froma young age, and my father and uncles always taught me to bow down to no one, honour comes before anything and the family name. Something that was in no way forced upon me but something I live by!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAAA!!!

Maybe your name is Braveheart! :D

Jesus you can't be serious!!?!?! :bang:

CrowZer0

17-Jul-2005, 03:14 PM

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAAA!!!

Maybe your name is Braveheart! :D

Jesus you can't be serious!!?!?! :bang:

I'm afraid I'm very serious, caveman theory, I plan to write a book on it:)

NaughtyKnight

17-Jul-2005, 03:26 PM

Seriously PPF, you are sounding like a Troll now. Saying stupid crap to flirt with Slip.

Stop being a tool and add something to this debate.

NZ Ninja

18-Jul-2005, 09:42 AM

Streetfighting is risky bussiness,Picture this your up town on a friday night ,you only live around the corner from the pub so you start walking home after a few drinks ,you are confronted by two pissed guys who want some money for some more alc ,while your dealing with the two *******s in front of you a third guy whos been siting in the shadows creeps up behind you and king hits you in the back of the head.ha ha sucker KO, you wake up with no jacket on :D feeling like a man with no jacket on :D, not much fun.

NaughtyKnight

18-Jul-2005, 09:46 AM

Thats not street fighting. Thats called getting mugged.

NZ Ninja

18-Jul-2005, 10:50 AM

Yeah I know ,still piss.s me off that I didnt turn it into a fight instead of flapping my jaw,who knows I may have been worse off.

Sorry for going off the subject :)

CrowZer0

18-Jul-2005, 12:55 PM

Yeh over here in Enfield it's all like "hey blaaad can I use your phone" or " hey blad how much money u got on you?" So basically if you say you have no money they will want to serach you or beat u up because u have no money or your lying, and if u say u have money they want it, and when they say they want to use a phone they want to take it and sell it on.

Hannibal

18-Jul-2005, 02:32 PM

Then either move, stop hanging around those areas or display better environmental awareness when you are out and about.

Fighting should only be utilised when you have REALLY ballsed up.

MaS_OyaMa

18-Jul-2005, 03:43 PM

A true practictioner of Martial Arts shouldn't be worried whether or not they are going to get into a fight. They should KNOW that they're techniques are valid enough to use properly and effectively in a fight. You should've built that confidence when you began your Martial Arts training-- you didn't exactly join to impress a girl or to gain flexibility to star in a Shakespeare play, did you? Noo!

You pretty much took Martial Arts to learn how to fight- right? Of course. Then along the way, you were taught the fundamentals of character, Like:

Prudence
Temperance
Humility
Honesty
etc.
And among these fundamentals, you were taught to avoid fights at ALL cost- and only fight when you HAVE to. Now, I'm not gonna' sit here and lecture you about not getting in fights, yadda yadda yadda- that's not my job.

But what I AM gonna' say, is why in the world would someone even consider getting into a Street fight? That's suicide! Alot more can happen into a street fight than people think-- But they pretty much covered it all- heheh

My point is, as a practictioner of Martial Arts, you shouldn't have to even CONSIDER lowering yourself to start a fight with someone, just to test your skills. That isn't the Martial Way. Instead, it would be best, of course, to stick with Full Contact- Even if you arn't fighting, your still training your body mentally and physically for a fight, IF you ever get into a fight. (But I hope that doesn't happen to ya'. :)
Thaks~~~

Slindsay

18-Jul-2005, 04:05 PM

But what I AM gonna' say, is why in the world would someone even consider getting into a Street fight? That's suicide!

Remind me to never study your MA, what on earth does it teach? Punch blocks with the throat?

MaS_OyaMa

18-Jul-2005, 04:26 PM

Wha? Did you NOT get what I was writing about? Hmm..... guess not.

Please refrain..........

Bil Gee

18-Jul-2005, 04:27 PM

Then along the way, you were taught the fundamentals of character, Like:

Prudence
Temperance
Humility
Honesty
etc.
And among these fundamentals, you were taught to avoid fights at ALL cost- and only fight when you HAVE to.

Nope, haven't covered those things, "hit them before they hit you if you can" is about the nearest I've come to moral guidance, which is fine by me.

You should check the notice board that you saw you class advertised, it sounds like you got the wrong day and ended up going to a Sunday school.

MaS_OyaMa

18-Jul-2005, 04:34 PM

Hannibal

18-Jul-2005, 07:18 PM

Now boys, play nice!

I can see both POV - although I am a smidge more inclined toward the "punchy" side of things. This is probably because I di not often get the luxury of avoiding fights.

Bil Gee

18-Jul-2005, 09:17 PM

Sounds to me like your trying to start some sort of argument over nothing!

You cannot take a martial art if you do not hold character. Believe me, if I couldn't avoid a fight, I would- to the best of my MA skills- prevent that attacker from getting the best of me. But that's not what I'm saying... I'm saying you should practice these fundamentals of character-- this makes you better person, and makes you wise. Not wanting to knock someone's head off.

That just makes you a punk--

Thanks.

I'm not a thug, and I don't go round picking fights. I managed to work that one out without any help from my sifu.

I go to my Wing Chun class because I want to learn to fight, I don't go for guidance on building my character.

I don't rule out knocking someone's head off, in the right circumstances, and I have hitting someone as one of a large range of options in a confrontation.

I've met people involved in martial arts with a number of different values. On the whole they don't tend to be quick to fight, as with most groups of people, but I've met a few who are very accomplished and seem to get themselves into more than their fair share of scraps.

An individual's moral code is in my view something distinct from their martial arts.

I don't buy into the philosophies that some try to sell, and I don't feel any special obligation to be any more morally upright than someone who doesn't do martial arts.

Some may choose to embrace the culture of their sifu, but this is something completely seperate to their martial arts training.

NaughtyKnight

18-Jul-2005, 10:25 PM

Nope, haven't covered those things, "hit them before they hit you if you can" is about the nearest I've come to moral guidance, which is fine by me.

You should check the notice board that you saw you class advertised, it sounds like you got the wrong day and ended up going to a Sunday school.

Pure quailty response :D. That made me laugh my first time today, cheers for that.

NaughtyKnight

18-Jul-2005, 10:27 PM

Developing

19-Jul-2005, 12:08 AM

In a street fight you could get shot. :woo:
In full contact sparring you won't get shot. :woo:
If there is a chance that you could get shot :woo: in your full contact sparring than I would advise training someplace else. :)

slipthejab

19-Jul-2005, 04:18 AM

psin
An individual's moral code is in my view something distinct from their martial arts.
Well that works for you and were happy for that... but for many people out there train or study in an MA that shows their MA to be more than just about the mechanics of fighting... it has to do with the way one conducts oneself off the battlefield as well as on. This is probably as old as martial arts themselves. Character building has long been part of the martial arts. I suggest you read up on the history and development of them to understand this point as you seem to know little about it.
I don't buy into the philosophies that some try to sell, and I don't feel any special obligation to be any more morally upright than someone who doesn't do martial arts.
Again good for you... you're the modern man, lol...but no one is forcing you to take an MA that does that. Many however look to their MA to do that and character building has been a part of many MA's over the centuries... to somehow try and make out that they're mutually exsclusive is nonsense.

Some may choose to embrace the culture of their sifu, but this is something completely seperate to their martial arts training.
Wrong. In many cases it's not. Martial Arts are not an island unto themselves.. they don't develop without influence from the culture in which they have been brought up. Much of the moral code is deeply intertwined with particular martial arts and when you sign up to learn the mechanics of the moves it does come part and parcel with a way of behaving yourself and acting towards others.

Have you never trained in other martial arts or is your extremely narrow view of them based on only having studied Wing Chun? :confused:

MaS_OyaMa

19-Jul-2005, 02:22 PM

Slipthejab has a good point--

I wasn't saying you should take MA to learn the meaning of life, you should already know the meaning of life, but MA just helps you "embrace" it. Since I've taken MA, I've actually tried to better myself in any way possible that I could--

For instance: In my style, we are mostly required to know the history of the art, japanese terminology, etc. Well, this requires alot of studying-- you think this helped me in school? Of course it did.

All I'm saying, is you shouldn't be so "eager" to fight in any situation... this is not the goal of the Martial Artist. I know there is alot of MAist out there who practice this concept- then there is alot of people who just watch too much UFC. :cool:

medi

19-Jul-2005, 03:03 PM

Isn't the point of learning a Martial Art (for a lot of people) to be able to survive those very 'street fight' situations we're discussing?

Using a "Street Fight" as a training method is like testing your car's airbag by driving into a wall.

Slindsay

19-Jul-2005, 03:06 PM

MaS_OyaMa

19-Jul-2005, 05:27 PM

Shuri

19-Jul-2005, 09:04 PM

Martial Arts should teach you discipline and character. Its doesnt show good character to do such things in my opinion and it makes the art look bad.

Full contact would be a better way. Also, in a street fight........ Lets say i fight the guy and finger jab him in the eye and he is now blind for the rest of his life. Or i use a 4-knuckle strike to his larynx and crush his wind-pipe. Or maybe i snap his shin with a thrust kick...

MA in a life or death situation should not have to be tested IMHO. There shouldnt be anyone on the streets you would need to worry about if your training effectively.

Especially if your competing full contact. You would get your bell rung enough to know how to react in a situation where you were getting hit.

I dont care how tough you are, the techniques taught in MA will bring you down if done effectively, with out hesitation, with accuracy, speed, a good angle, and proper form. Training for any full contact match would develop the above talents and there would be no need for a street fight test or for someone being seriously injured for life or possibley killed.

Not to mention like i said earlier it also is not becoming of good character to do such things. You would basically be doing a criminal act with your art that teaches you discipline and character?? Doesnt make sense to me. It should be more then a physical test. What standard of excellence mentally/spiritually would you succumb to just to improve physically?

Timmy Boy

19-Jul-2005, 09:34 PM

Unusual though it may seem, I have to agree with psin. Slipthejab, psin is in his 40s. I'm sure that by now he's a perfectly upright citizen and doesn't need his sifu to instruct him in how to behave; his parents did that for him long ago. For his sifu to presume he needs a moral education would be incredibly insulting.

NaughtyKnight

20-Jul-2005, 10:01 AM

Applause.

Second that. Best analogy I've ever heard.

MaS_OyaMa

20-Jul-2005, 02:52 PM

Slindsay

20-Jul-2005, 03:50 PM

No actually Psin speaks about making up his own mind about whats important in life.

MaS_OyaMa

20-Jul-2005, 05:19 PM

I see the part where he made up his own mind about not seeking moral discipline within his MA........

But I guess I missed the part about "what's important in his life".

Sorry---------------

Slindsay

20-Jul-2005, 05:31 PM

I mean that moral discipline decides whats important in life, if your MA was deciding your morality then it's not you making decisions on whats important in life.

Timmy Boy

20-Jul-2005, 08:38 PM

Psin speaks of not having moral discipline and character within his MA... why would you agree to that?? O.O

Like I said, because he's a grown man and he doesn't need his sifu to instruct him in how to behave. All he needs his sifu for is to teach him how to fight - he already knows not to use wing chun for the wrong reasons.

EDIT: The spirituality/morality element of martial arts is something that McDojos often use to try and distinguish themselves from the evil hordes of full contact fighters. If you go along with the moral code they throw at you just because you want to do the art, you're not being true to yourself. All it does, IMO, is cheapen true morality into a McDojo gimmick.

NaughtyKnight

20-Jul-2005, 09:38 PM

Psin speaks of not having moral discipline and character within his MA... why would you agree to that?? O.O

Because most Europeans have no intrests in how the Asians live. We join ma classes to learn how to fight, not get lessons on life. If I was intrested in how my master lived etc, then I would go to an Asian Appreciation class.

Shuri

21-Jul-2005, 02:46 AM

Learn to fight?
How exactly do you learn to fight. Anyone can fight, big deal. MA training should bring you above that. When the time is neccessary to act its one action and your the victor because your teaching should bring you to that level. But if you dont have the character to restrain from such actions unneccessarly your going to end up in alot of trouble.

How long would a so called fight last between professional MAist you gather?
Not a full-contact match with rules, BUT a real to the death fight. Im willing to bet not very long at all, maybe 45 seconds-11/2 minutes tops.

Ever train any in Iaido? People did not block and parry strikes and go back and forth for 5 minutes in a sword fight. One to two blows usually descided the outcome of the victor with usually no blocking involved.

This is similar to what a properly trained MA is capable of and this is why i find character to be important. No i dont train at a McDojo, because i share a different view does not mean my training is of any less quality then anyone elses on this forum.

My point is in a fight to the K.O./Death situation outside of the ring a MA can inflict instant damage in well under a minute and without blocks, parrys, and things of that nature. One to two strikes, a break, etc. and its over. The nature of martial arts is not in blocking and striking, but strike once and its over.

This is why there are so many lethal methods of attack, breaks, strangulation, etc. within the MA. Its just not suitable for such a thing because in order to truely test what you've been taught to its fullest you would need to take the situation to the highest level. Which would be actual life threatening combat.

In this situation the MA would probably do one of two things:
1.) Have the training to win, but hesitate for lack of proper training under pressure.

2.) Kill the guy in a matter of seconds.

So why rush to go to jail is all im saying. Train the tools you have in a safe environment and develop your mental strength against attack in a ring. This way you have the confidence you need without testing techniques that are not meant to be "tested".

How do you test breaking someones neck?
Exactly, thats my point.
Sorry you took what i was trying to say as an attack against you, it wasnt i just strongly disagree with "testing" MA in a street fight. And regardless if your MA teaches good character you should strive for it. Doing the right thing doesnt make someone a practicioner of a MA from a McDojo.

slipthejab

21-Jul-2005, 03:35 AM

Because most Europeans have no intrests in how the Asians live. We join ma classes to learn how to fight, not get lessons on life. If I was intrested in how my master lived etc, then I would go to an Asian Appreciation class.

lol.
Not if you look at the number of sad Kung Fu gits that believe in Chi blasts and sifu's being able to get beaten up by rifle buts and show no sign whatsoever of being hurt - and all the Iron Shirt mystic what-have-you.

Given the massive interest in all things Chinese recently in the popular media and in film I'd say Europeans have a massive interest in how Asians live.

lol. What's more is that how Asians live effects your daily life.. right down to the underwear and socks your wearing that are made in China... the keyboad that your typing on and it's CPU's chipset that was probably made in Taiwan and assembled in China and the shirt and trousers your wearing that were made in Bangladesh, Cambodia or China.

To presume to speak for all Europeans is a bit silly.

Rainofblades

21-Jul-2005, 06:27 AM

MA played a big role in my moral development, and i firmly believe what most traditional martial artists believe: MA is in fact an art, and it should not be used soley for kicking people's asses.

That doesn't mean I'll hesitate in a fight or run from it. If its easier to just beat some drunk bastard who probably deserves it anyway, I won't sit there for an hour talking to him about the meaning of life and trying to convert him just to avoid a fight. I'll deck his ass and go on with my life.

Getting back to the topic of the thread: Don't go looking for a street fight. The fact that you have doubts about whether or not you should do it proves that you shouldnt do it. If you really wanted to do it, you wouldn't have asked our opinion, you would have just gone out there and done it.

Rainofblades

21-Jul-2005, 06:28 AM

Using a "Street Fight" as a training method is like testing your car's airbag by driving into a wall.

Medi, I'm putting that in my signature. Hope you dont mind

NaughtyKnight

21-Jul-2005, 07:33 AM

lol.
Not if you look at the number of sad Kung Fu gits that believe in Chi blasts and sifu's being able to get beaten up by rifle buts and show no sign whatsoever of being hurt - and all the Iron Shirt mystic what-have-you.

Given the massive interest in all things Chinese recently in the popular media and in film I'd say Europeans have a massive interest in how Asians live.

lol. What's more is that how Asians live effects your daily life.. right down to the underwear and socks your wearing that are made in China... the keyboad that your typing on and it's CPU's chipset that was probably made in Taiwan and assembled in China and the shirt and trousers your wearing that were made in Bangladesh, Cambodia or China.

To presume to speak for all Europeans is a bit silly.

The shirt I and pants im wearing were made in Italy, Prada my friend. ;) I wouldnt cheapen myself wearing something that was made in some Chinese Sweatshop.

What does building computers have to do with asian culture? They didnt invent it. If I read a book about the UK, that was printed in China, am I embrasing China? No.

I dont know about where you live, but Australian culture is very much its own. I dont think we take anything from China (except thousands of its immigrants). We eat some of its food, but thats about it. You wouldnt see me dead in anything that they wear in China, nor most Euopeans/Aussies.

Timmy Boy

21-Jul-2005, 11:32 AM

Learn to fight?
How exactly do you learn to fight. Anyone can fight, big deal. MA training should bring you above that. When the time is neccessary to act its one action and your the victor because your teaching should bring you to that level. But if you dont have the character to restrain from such actions unneccessarly your going to end up in alot of trouble.

Ah right, I understand now. If you don't look to the martial arts for moral guidance, you are automatically a thug. There is no other way to know how to behave.

How long would a so called fight last between professional MAist you gather?
Not a full-contact match with rules, BUT a real to the death fight. Im willing to bet not very long at all, maybe 45 seconds-11/2 minutes tops.

Ever train any in Iaido? People did not block and parry strikes and go back and forth for 5 minutes in a sword fight. One to two blows usually descided the outcome of the victor with usually no blocking involved.

Er yeah, that's because they were using swords, i.e. big heavy sharp metal things, not their bare hands, so what's your point?

This is similar to what a properly trained MA is capable of and this is why i find character to be important. No i dont train at a McDojo, because i share a different view does not mean my training is of any less quality then anyone elses on this forum.

My point is in a fight to the K.O./Death situation outside of the ring a MA can inflict instant damage in well under a minute and without blocks, parrys, and things of that nature. One to two strikes, a break, etc. and its over. The nature of martial arts is not in blocking and striking, but strike once and its over.

It's over in one or two hits if the fighter for whom it's over is very badly conditioned and can't take more than one or two hits.

This is why there are so many lethal methods of attack, breaks, strangulation, etc. within the MA. Its just not suitable for such a thing because in order to truely test what you've been taught to its fullest you would need to take the situation to the highest level. Which would be actual life threatening combat.

In this situation the MA would probably do one of two things:
1.) Have the training to win, but hesitate for lack of proper training under pressure.

2.) Kill the guy in a matter of seconds.

So why rush to go to jail is all im saying. Train the tools you have in a safe environment and develop your mental strength against attack in a ring. This way you have the confidence you need without testing techniques that are not meant to be "tested".

I think you're exaggerating how d34d1y martial artists really are in a streetfight, but I agree that sparring is better.

How do you test breaking someones neck?

By using neck cranks when you grapple.

medi

21-Jul-2005, 11:37 AM

Medi, I'm putting that in my signature. Hope you dont mind

I think everyone should do the same

NaughtyKnight

21-Jul-2005, 12:04 PM

I think you're exaggerating how d34d1y martial artists really are in a streetfight, but I agree that sparring is better..

You only think?

I have seen maist getting righteously pwned in fights, many times.

Timmy Boy

21-Jul-2005, 12:27 PM

You only think?

I have seen maist getting righteously pwned in fights, many times.

Same here, I was just trying to be more subtle about it :p

NaughtyKnight

21-Jul-2005, 12:45 PM

There is nothing subtle about me :D.

MaS_OyaMa

21-Jul-2005, 03:37 PM

I think you're exaggerating how d34d1y martial artists really are in a streetfight, but I agree that sparring is better.

I know this particular person, Shuri, and he's been in many fights... and I don't recall him ever losing, so HE must've been doing something right-

And I'm sure he knows to use "neck cranks" in grappling-- sheesh... he was just being sarcastic....

Shuri

21-Jul-2005, 04:01 PM

Ah right, I understand now. If you don't look to the martial arts for moral guidance, you are automatically a thug. There is no other way to know how to behave.

Thats not what i said, but since people on here love to put words in others mouth i guess its a response i should have expected. I was explaining the importance of character/discipline period. Most average people dont have the discipline needed to walk away when its possible, ESPECIALLY if they have been well trained. They usually have big heads and ego's that make them feel like showing off. Without the proper mental attitude you would not have MA. You would have a trained bully.

Er yeah, that's because they were using swords, i.e. big heavy sharp metal things, not their bare hands, so what's your point?

My point was on the mentality of a real life combative situation. The mentality is not to block/punch, move around in a circle and throw jabs, and wrestle around until someone is K.O. The mentality is that of maximum efficiency using minimum effort. In other words you dont look for the block/punch, etc. Your looking for the end all right now solution which is usually an extremely dangerous technique that could leave the opponent injured for life or dead. Such techniques shouldnt be "tested".

It's over in one or two hits if the fighter for whom it's over is very badly conditioned and can't take more than one or two hits.

Well sure, but i personally am very well conditioned and can take a hit just fine. Im assuming that every MAist on here has been trained equally and are conditioned and can take a hit from an average aggresor.

I think you're exaggerating how d34d1y martial artists really are in a streetfight, but I agree that sparring is better.

Over exaggerating? If i jab your eye out isnt that dangerous? How about if i break your arm and your leg? The list of possibilities go on......... If someone attacks me on the street im not going to block and punch with them. HE will probably punch at me, but my response will be a end to the situation, not fuel to the fire (ex. jab to the face).

By using neck cranks when you grapple.

Well using the mentality of having to test it in a real situation to be sure your technique would work....................... You would have to really break your practicioners neck. He would have to be trying to resist and you would have to break his neck. Only way to be sure you can really do it right, right?

WRONG, exactly my point to the whole "Testing MA in a street fight".

Hannibal

21-Jul-2005, 04:29 PM

In all the confrontations I have been in, in all the CCTV footage I have viewed and in all the assaults I have investigated (and that all adds up to a lot of fighting) I have rarely seen a fight go beyond about 45 seconds. Most do not even make it that far. From that angle, no you do not have to be bale to fight for 10 rounds.

But on the cobbles your body will burn up your strength and speed through masive bursts of adrenaline much much quicker than in any ring situation so you will be gassed an awful lot quicker. In which case having the ability to go 10 rounds is useful because your 2 minute burnout will outlast your average Yob's 45 second special.

Now as for techniques...well we could argue for ages. But what I will say is that if you cannot hit someone with a jab in sparring, what makes you think you can use a finger jab in the heat of a "real" fight? Sometimes there is no necessity to "end it quickly" and a sweep, throw or even a quick right hander will achieve the same result. My brother in law (no martial arts training at all) KO'd someone with two jabs when they rushed him. Job done! I have been in the "drunken moron" situations may times and have used "softer" techniques (locks, evasions and pushes) because to finish the fight would have been excessive.

Each confrontation is to be judged on it's merits rathee than assigned a standard "in a real fight I would...{insert response involving eyes/throat/goolies}"

I have no need for moral guidance from martial arts any more than I do from cooking. I enjoy both and they are defined by my moral context NOT vice versa. If you need moral guidance from your pastime why would you need to learn how to gouge someone's eye out?

Shuri

21-Jul-2005, 05:12 PM

Once again, im not saying MA is required to develop discipline, but that discipline and character should be a must for people trained in the MA. Regardless of where they attain this from.

I believe an instructor should see to it he is not instructing someone of bad character in particular things.

I never said i couldnt throw a jab in a spar. I do so very effectively. This point has been over argued. I hope my input was helpful to someone, but its one just view point.

I was never trying to say its the only view that holds true, but its the view i mostly wanted to stress to the original poster and ive done that so im going to look into some other threads now..

Thanks for all the good input guys.

NaughtyKnight

21-Jul-2005, 09:43 PM

MaS_OyaMa

21-Jul-2005, 10:43 PM

Shui you are wrong. The definition of Martial Arts isnt mental dicipline, its fighting in the army.

Of course you need some dicipline to train enough to get good, but that doesnt mean it has to transform you into some moral warrior. I know plenty of rat bag maists that jump people for the fun of it.

There may be people who do this... but that doesn't make them good MAist...

Just because you train in MA, doesn't make you "good". If you haven't fully developed your character enough along with your training, then you are not training to your fullest--

Just because Shuri didn't learn MA from watching videos and reading books, doesn't make him wrong....

Thanks~~

Timmy Boy

21-Jul-2005, 11:36 PM

Thats not what i said, but since people on here love to put words in others mouth i guess its a response i should have expected. I was explaining the importance of character/discipline period. Most average people dont have the discipline needed to walk away when its possible, ESPECIALLY if they have been well trained. They usually have big heads and ego's that make them feel like showing off. Without the proper mental attitude you would not have MA. You would have a trained bully.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth, what you just said is just as insulting to the average martial artist's intelligence as I first supposed. Why the assumption that most people won't have the discipline to walk away?

My point was on the mentality of a real life combative situation. The mentality is not to block/punch, move around in a circle and throw jabs, and wrestle around until someone is K.O. The mentality is that of maximum efficiency using minimum effort. In other words you dont look for the block/punch, etc. Your looking for the end all right now solution which is usually an extremely dangerous technique that could leave the opponent injured for life or dead. Such techniques shouldnt be "tested".

You don't learn to fight by learning d34d1y techniques, you learn to fight by getting a set of good habits drilled into you. You do this via sparring. If you don't, you're pretty unlikely to pull such a technique off.

Well sure, but i personally am very well conditioned and can take a hit just fine. Im assuming that every MAist on here has been trained equally and are conditioned and can take a hit from an average aggresor.

If you're conditioned just fine, then your fights won't be over in one or two hits, will they?

Over exaggerating? If i jab your eye out isnt that dangerous? How about if i break your arm and your leg? The list of possibilities go on......... If someone attacks me on the street im not going to block and punch with them. HE will probably punch at me, but my response will be a end to the situation, not fuel to the fire (ex. jab to the face).

You're not exaggerating the effect of these techniques if they actually work. What you're exaggerating is a martial artist's ability to apply techniques he's never drilled properly in a streetfight when his adrenaline's going.

Well using the mentality of having to test it in a real situation to be sure your technique would work....................... You would have to really break your practicioners neck. He would have to be trying to resist and you would have to break his neck. Only way to be sure you can really do it right, right?

Wrong, you tap when it hurts too much just like any other submission technique.[/QUOTE]

Developing

22-Jul-2005, 04:11 AM

Thread's had some interesting comments and has changed slightly. I'll only say that I have done some studying on discipline and philosophy in terms of the martial arts and I feel these things are important to me. My idea is not just to become a better fighter but to also become a better man. But notice I said that these things are important to me. I in no way criticize other martial artists for not sharing my view nor do I present my opinions as being the only way. This is really something that everyone man has to make his own mind up as to how he feels about it. I don't know any other way to say it.

NaughtyKnight

22-Jul-2005, 09:37 AM

There may be people who do this... but that doesn't make them good MAist...

Just because you train in MA, doesn't make you "good". If you haven't fully developed your character enough along with your training, then you are not training to your fullest--

Just because Shuri didn't learn MA from watching videos and reading books, doesn't make him wrong....

Thanks~~

You are talking a load of crap. Just because you want some mystical Zen like powers from training, doesnt mean everyone else does. Leave your talk to the religious threads (which I dont go to) and leave this for ma debate.

MaS_OyaMa

22-Jul-2005, 02:28 PM

Pastyti

22-Jul-2005, 07:36 PM

Then either move, stop hanging around those areas or display better environmental awareness when you are out and about.

Fighting should only be utilised when you have REALLY ballsed up.

Bloody well said Hannibal, spot on the mark.

How you keeping chum? Give me a shout & let me know.

Pats.

Hannibal

22-Jul-2005, 08:08 PM

Yo Pats!

Glad to see you back on the boards! I'll PM you soon and give you a big update on things...they are getting quite exciting!

Shuri

22-Jul-2005, 08:18 PM

Martial Arts, ART! Hello...............
Learning to fight only is not a MA, its training to fight.

Karate-Do
Open Hand Way, way meaning path. A path of life. More than just combative aspects.

Martial Arts incorporate discipline, character, etc. Learning to fight is not Martial Arts. Martial Arts has always incorporated discipline and character even back during the times of ancient Okinawa.

As on it being a form of military preparation, again DUH! Do you think our military special forces are only trained to fight? They are mentally trained as well. Mental discipline was a part of this military preparation since the beginning.

Someone teaching another person to fight using techniques and conditioning is not MA. Calling it MA makes MAist look bad. But anyway this debate is not worth my time any longer.

Shuri

22-Jul-2005, 08:25 PM

You are talking a load of crap. Just because you want some mystical Zen like powers from training, doesnt mean everyone else does. Leave your talk to the religious threads (which I dont go to) and leave this for ma debate.

That statement is so retarded. Zen powers? Religious threads?

"Just because you want some mystical zen like powers for training, doesnt mean everyone else does"

Just because you dont train mentally and spiritually doesnt mean others shouldnt. Just because you find it stupid because you dont understand the benefit from it, doesnt mean i dont.

Hannibal

22-Jul-2005, 08:26 PM

Relax Shiru - try a little bit of that calm discipline that your MA has taught you! :-)

Martial = Warlike, Art =...errr, well art really. So you are literally studying "the art of war".

Yes there are fringe benefits, but first and foremost you are learning to fight. For spirituality I have never met a single MAist that can match a vicar...but I know who I want backing me up in a scrap!

medi

22-Jul-2005, 09:58 PM

Wow somebody watched 1 too many 70s Kung Fu Flicks about a teenage boy forced to resort to using martial arts to avenge the death of his father etc etc

NaughtyKnight

22-Jul-2005, 11:21 PM

That statement is so retarded. Zen powers? Religious threads?

"Just because you want some mystical zen like powers for training, doesnt mean everyone else does"

Just because you dont train mentally and spiritually doesnt mean others shouldnt. Just because you find it stupid because you dont understand the benefit from it, doesnt mean i dont.

Yeh, didnt say others shouldnt. Im saying stop trying to false your crap philosophy onto us, we dont care.

And what benefit is that? Are you saying my culture cannot offer me the same benefit as some Chinese culture can. Buy yourself a clue mate, china is most definatly NOT the be all to end all. Its very far from perfect.

MaS_OyaMa

23-Jul-2005, 04:28 AM

Who said we were talking about China? Maybe we were referring to Okinawa, which is where our art originated.... not Australia.... So I think these people have a little more of an idea of what their MA is about more than Australia does.

Thank you- come again. :)

NaughtyKnight

23-Jul-2005, 04:45 AM

Your having a cry because we dont train for "strength of character" and other stupid crap.

I train for fighting, not what you train for. Stop forsing your ideals onto others.

MaS_OyaMa

23-Jul-2005, 04:50 AM

.... your a very hostile individual, aren't you?

Did you NOT get attention as a kid?

I never said I didn't train to fight.... That's just something you made up to make yourself think you had the upper hand in this conversation.

NaughtyKnight

23-Jul-2005, 05:01 AM

Lol, great snide attack. Really shows your strength of character.

This is a self defence forum, go preach in the religious thread.

MaS_OyaMa

23-Jul-2005, 05:17 AM

What is it with people on this forum taking other people words and bashing them with retarded, immature comments?

All I said was you should practice moral discipline WITHIN your MA....sheesh-- you people need to lighten up... The reason this thread was made, was to differentiate Street fighting and full-contact sparring.... and which would be better...

And I said Full-contact sparring, because WITHIN your MA, moral discipline and character is practiced, and Street Fighting would LOWER you to a level of ignorance- and something MA try to avoid... You shouldn't see MAist in this world PICKING STREET FIGHTS! If you do, they deserve a good whoopin or deserve to get put into jail......

My instructor says "Not every lesson is ours to teach." I'm not going to sit here and tell you what to do, Knight- but YOU should know to practice moral discipline and character, even though your MA doesn't teach it... but MOST MA should enforce it, concidering your learning techniques to KILL PEOPLE!

Sheesh-- what style do YOU take, Knight? Thug-Fu? Gangster Kwon Do?

:woo:

NaughtyKnight

23-Jul-2005, 08:37 AM

Actuallly PWN THE NOOBS KWON FU :D

Judderman

24-Jul-2005, 01:57 PM

Ok Guys.

Take five.

I like debate, but if you turn this into a slanging match I'll get upset.

I'm a very sensitive kinda guy.

so please knock it off.

Ta muchly

Shuri

24-Jul-2005, 02:11 PM

Its alright, i dont mind the argument... At least he is making a good argument and not crying like most people do... Good points, but yeah the thread has gotten a little bitchy so im out (some of my fault i guess).

Thanks for all the input..

NaughtyKnight

24-Jul-2005, 09:21 PM

LOL sorry judderman :D

samoz

25-Jul-2005, 12:34 AM

I guess the advantage of a street fight is that it gives you real experience. If you mess up, you can't go back, your opponent will beat the snot out of you . . . Full contact sparring, I'm sure they won't be pounding on you when you're rolling around . . . or at least not too much . . .

Another thing, you'll get to see a lot of diffrent ways of fighting when on the street . . . This can be good and bad because if you see something that works well, it's generally being done to you . . . Sparring you'll most likely see the same techniques that you know . . .

My 2 cents :)

raizen

07-Aug-2005, 01:13 AM

well i not sure if any body has said this i have not read all of the 5+ pages..

the only way to know if you can truly fight is to be in a life or death situation. If you are faced with death and forget all of your training what good was it? All the hours all the money all the pain for nothing..Fighting for your life is much difrent than a sanctioned bout.. If you ask me street fights are needed but i sugest you do not provoke any one..find a thug picking on some small guy tell him to quit that will get him hot ..their you go you are justified..

NaughtyKnight

07-Aug-2005, 01:33 AM

well i not sure if any body has said this i have not read all of the 5+ pages...

Be a good start if you actually read the thread first....

raizen

07-Aug-2005, 06:12 AM

i read a page or so.. but it was not too interesting after that..

Natswoo

09-Aug-2005, 11:24 AM

Best way to think about it is, there's a difference between a martial artist and a fighter. A fighter will do anything to hurt/kill you, a martial artist try to win the fight.

Timmy Boy

09-Aug-2005, 05:07 PM

Best way to think about it is, there's a difference between a martial artist and a fighter. A fighter will do anything to hurt/kill you, a martial artist try to win the fight.

Oh goody, another way to distinguish between the two! Someone should make a list of distinctions.

GojuKJoe

10-Aug-2005, 01:12 AM

Best way to think about it is, there's a difference between a martial artist and a fighter. A fighter will do anything to hurt/kill you, a martial artist try to win the fight.

I don't agree with that comment at all, and frankly, I think it's offensive to "fighters".

NaughtyKnight

10-Aug-2005, 02:39 AM

Best way to think about it is, there's a difference between a martial artist and a fighter. A fighter will do anything to hurt/kill you, a martial artist try to win the fight.

No, completly wrong.

Both try and win the fight, which consequently means that they both need to hurt you. The level of injuries is the only difference.

Timmy Boy

10-Aug-2005, 09:00 AM

pgm316

10-Aug-2005, 09:48 AM

If you want to win the fight, you need to use every tool at your disposal to make sure you do. If you hold back with things you're basically assuming you're t3h d34d1y and that you don't need to try hard in order to win. When life and limb is on the line you don't know what your opponent is capable of and you shouldn't take chances. Losing the fight means injury or death in this situation, so incapacitate him ASAP and worry about morality and the law later.

AFAIK, it's only aikido that teaches this way of thinking, pretty much every other art teaches you to do whatever you need to in order to survive, which is why some MA techniques are so brutal, so to say that this is the difference between a martial artist and a fighter is just plain wrong.

I agree, only someone blind to the dangers of the "streetfight" will hold back and try to win the fight without trying to inflict maximum damage. Sounds like a good philosophy to win without causing maximum damage, but its like saying win a race without going so fast :D Can be dangerous and will increase the risk of losing yourself.

The word Streetfighter implies the person has experience of fighting and if so then this is their advantage!

Timmy Boy

10-Aug-2005, 12:11 PM

The word Streetfighter implies the person has experience of fighting and if so then this is their advantage!

Exactly. I've seen some martial artists get royally decked by untrained people. To assume that people can't fight just because they don't do formal training is stupid - they could be strong or tough, get into a lot of fights and thus have experience, or just be a nasty piece of work. Even if you're good at MA you should NEVER underestimate your opponent, and I think this applies to training regimes ("yeah well it doesn't work in full contact competitions but people you fight on teh street won't be able to fight so it doesn't matter") as well as your self-defence mindset.

pgm316

10-Aug-2005, 01:39 PM

Exactly. I've seen some martial artists get royally decked by untrained people. To assume that people can't fight just because they don't do formal training is stupid - they could be strong or tough, get into a lot of fights and thus have experience, or just be a nasty piece of work. Even if you're good at MA you should NEVER underestimate your opponent, and I think this applies to training regimes ("yeah well it doesn't work in full contact competitions but people you fight on teh street won't be able to fight so it doesn't matter") as well as your self-defence mindset.

And often the streetfighter has the better plan. Be aggresive, charge in and land a few hard shots during the mess. Whereas we start from the bridge hand and wait to counter an attack! :D

Plus! I hope this streetfighter has been told our system doesn't have groundwork because we don't fight on the ground!!!

;)

I'm using 2 big generalisations but I'm sure it happens often enough.