Fencing

[Timmy Boy]

Hey guys, does anyone here do fencing?

[Cudgel]

define fencing.
going back to its original defination most of us W<Aist are fencers. I study Liechtenauer Kunst des Fechten which is primarly fecnign with the longsword.
But if you are asking if any of us are sport fencers. I think not many are here. We study arts closer to real combat.

[Louie]

Hey guys, does anyone here do fencing?

Hi Timmy...

I study traditional Scots single-stick which to the untrained eye could be mistaken for FMA stickfighting but it is actually an old training method for broadsword fencing.

Louie

[Wynnston]

Hey guys, does anyone here do fencing?

I do western or FIE olympic style fencing. Mainly foil but some epee and very rarely - sabre. Started about 25 years ago and been doing it on and off ever since.

Do you fence or are you thinking of starting?

[Stolenbjorn]

-and I practice from Fiore di Liberis manual named Fior di Battaglia from around 1410. (I focus on wresteling, dagger and longsword.)

[lklawson]

Singlestick as a stand-in for Military & heavy Sabre. Source material is Sabre texts from Pepper and Gaspard Le Marchant up through Hutton and even some of the early 20th C. U.S. military Sabre & Cutlas manuals.

(note: The fact that I "study" should not be misconstrued to imply any particularly high skill level. :-)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[Cudgel]

Study meaning you can hold the stick and not hit yourself with it. ;)

[Ghoul]

i used to do sport type fencing, though i had to stop because thay only trained on a friday night so i dident make many classes

[ap Oweyn]

I've done about a year and a half of fencing. Mostly foil obviously. But some sabre and epee.

[Timmy Boy]

I was thinking of starting fencing to compliment the unarmed stuff that I do. Western arts have a certain appeal for me because they're not talked about so much in the martial arts community, and fencing in particular because of the historical aspect. However, it does look VERY expensive to get started!

I have a vague idea about the weapons used in fencing, but what exactly are they?

[Wynnston]

I was thinking of starting fencing to compliment the unarmed stuff that I do. Western arts have a certain appeal for me because they're not talked about so much in the martial arts community, and fencing in particular because of the historical aspect. However, it does look VERY expensive to get started!

I have a vague idea about the weapons used in fencing, but what exactly are they?

I'm assuming you're talking about Olympic style fencing;

Foil = lightweight point hit only weapon, torso target, right of attack rules apply.
Epee = heavy point hit only weapon, all body target, no right of attack rules.
Sabre = edge and point hit weapon, above the waist target, right of attack rules apply.

I'm in the process of writing an article covering the basics of Olympic style fencing but Yoda has a couple of JKD vs Olympic style fencing articles which cover some of the basics as well as the specifics relevant to JKD. I'll post my article in the next few days hopefully. In the mean time www.britishfencing.com and www.fencing.net should get you started.

Starting fencing shouldn't be expensive as most clubs will have kit for you to use (mask, jacket, weapon, glove). My personal take on Olympic style fencing WRT MA's is that it is a bit too sportified and rule bound to be of direct use in most weapon based arts. However, hand speed, distance, timing and the use of feints derived from Olympic style fencing are all useful for most MA's.

[lklawson]

Study meaning you can hold the stick and not hit yourself with it. ;)

Well... you know... most of the time, anyhow. ;-)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[Hobbitlauncher]

speaking of fencing, anyone know any good schools/whatnot near LaCrosse Wisconsin? Always wanted to give it a go, and with a lack of MA dojos near there, fencing definitely wouldn't hurt

--edit-- a directory of fencing schools works too, i can look for myself =)

[Adam R]

I was thinking of starting fencing to compliment the unarmed stuff that I do. Western arts have a certain appeal for me because they're not talked about so much in the martial arts community, and fencing in particular because of the historical aspect. However, it does look VERY expensive to get started!

I have a vague idea about the weapons used in fencing, but what exactly are they?

IMHO - :D

Sport fencing is not the best compliment to unarmed MA - take up something with more overlap - something that maintains closing and grappling - in terms of WMA (sport fencing cannot be regarded as such - it is a sport, not a MA) go for medieval type sword styles (the aforementioned KDF [Liechtenauer tradition fighting systems] or Liberi) - they contain an enormous amount of techniques at various distances - these will nicely compliment open hand MA. Sport fencing can complement other WMA - butso damage footwork and appreciation of conceeding a hit :D

Indeed - take up KDF or Liberi based WMA and what else do you need??!

Adam

[Cudgel]

Well... you know... most of the time, anyhow. ;-)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I know the feeling. Many is the time I have smacked myself in the forehead with the back of my own stick.


KDF and Fiore wld work to compliment your unarmed MA because they are both styles that cover not jsut one weapon but severa, including unarmed standup grappling,l and multiple ranges. That and they used to be battlefeild arts.

[Cuchulain82]

I have to agree with Adam R- sport fencing is not a great martial skill. I am a proficient fencer (saber fighter specifically) and I recently started studying Kali. Actually, I just posted about this, so you can give it a read if you click here (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=541973&postcount=62). I don't mean to disparage fencing, but if you want serious martial skill, I would say that fencing as you will probably find it will usually be a sport MA- sorry.

[Timmy Boy]

I'm curious... what is it in particular about sport fencing that stops it from being an effective art? BJJ, judo, wrestling, muay thai and MMA are all unarmed sport arts that have effective crossover to real-life situations, so why is it that weapons should be different?

[Adam R]

In brief - I would say the rules. I used to fence epee - so there are fewer rules (I am thinking of rights of way here) than with sabre and foil - but even so. You are limited to linear combat - and consequently linear footwork. It is entirely thrust oriented - focusing distance perception to a finer zone, there is no contact of competitors and the ability (on metal pistes particularly) to score hits by the book - but without any martial intent (sliding points across the floor) all undermine it's usefulness. It has been a sport so long that the rules define the style.

Earlier WMA (now being re-discovered - or still existing) are more concerned with fighting (not scoring points) and consequently are more broadly focussed.

Fencing is a perfectly good sport - gives excellent hand - eye coordination and distance appreciation. But it is not a martial art - KDF (for example) give better appreciation of combat at any distance (including wrestling) and overlap with other MA.

[Cuchulain82]

To add on to what Adam R said...

In fencing, the entire point is to get a touch. Two of the three (foil, epee) swords only give points on a thrust. The other (saber) gives points for a cut or thrust. Two of the three swords (foil, saber) have relatively limited target areas, and most importantly, apply rules of right of way. Let me break it down by sword:

Foil- the basic sword. The foil is a very light blade that gives a point for a touch anywhere on the front of the chest or underarm- no where else. Foil combat emerged from the practice of aristocratic dueling in the late renaissance. Nobles needed to defend their honor (ie- I sleep w/your sister, you challenge me to a duel) but didn't want to kill each other. To settle this, they would set a date and time and show up to duel wearing white. The duel went to first touch, which could be seen as red blood on the white clothing- hence the term "touché". A whole system of combat evolved from this, following rules of gentlemanly conduct while dueling (ie- right of way, limited target area, etc).

Epee- the combat sword. An epee is a heavier thrusting sword, with points allowed only for a thrust. Epee combat evolved out of late renaissance combat (ie- Three Musketeers) when piercing blades and arbusqueses had made plate mail and broadswords too cumbersome. In epee the target area is the bottom of the foot to the top of the head- in other words everywhere! Also, in epee there are no rules of right of way- as any fencer will tell you, this changes everything.

Epee is the favorite of some people who like faster, harder competition. It is probably the most “battle oriented” system because it was derived from open field combat systems (ie- think of the target area; in battle, a hit is a hit). However, imo it is still limited because of the fact that the sword is essentially a rapier, only good for thrusting. Also, sport epee has been necessarily watered down for the safety of all. An epee without a tip or a broken epee blade are both solid enough to seriously injure or kill someone.

Saber- the cavalry sword. Saber is my favorite. I find it more fluid and more fun, with better fights and a more realistic feel. However, it isn’t without its limitations. Points in saber are given for a thrust or a cut (the slashing motion most people associate with swords). The target area is the top of the head to the waist, back front, excluding the hands. Rules of right of way apply. Saber combat evolved from cavalry combat (hence the limited target area). Strikes were necessarily made as both cuts and thrusts with combatants riding by. This translates into the current Olympic incarnation or sport saber.

One more thing- rules of right of way. Right of way is basically a rule that says that a combatant can only score a point when s/he has the “right of way.” Right of way is established by holding your sword out straight in a thrust/lunge/obvious deliberate attack. Right of way is lost when your sword is taken out of line or when your attack otherwise misses. Basically, right of way means that you must get your arm out straight first, or parry your opponent’s blade before counterattacking (reposting).

The limitations of fencing for true combat are manifold. First of all, the entire point of fencing is to touch the other person first. This means that part of good fencing strategy is literally throwing yourself at your opponent and touching them before they touch you. Let’s be clear- these aren’t martial arts, kick-the-bag or sparring-gut-punch strikes- these are light, almost non-existent touches. It is said that a proper touch should not be felt by the person touched, and should only leave a small mark on their jacket. This makes sense for a sport, where you are trying to get the most you can out of your range, but not for combat. So, good strategy (google “fleche”) is running at your opponent to touch them and, simultaneously, get within a range where his weapon (and usually yours too) is unusable. Think about this- in a fight in the street, do you really want to be in a position where your weapon is ineffective, using an art that doesn’t teach empty hand techniques, after you’ve just nicked your opponent with your sword (a relatively light sword btw)?

Second of all, all systems are taught off of a foil. The idea is that a great foil fighter will be a great saber fighter if you give him cuts and a larger target area. Likewise, take away right of way and make the target area larger, and you have a great epee fighter. This may be true for sport, but imo it doesn’t translate into good combat practice. Foil is a gentleman’s, with the express purpose of not hurting anyone too badly. Now, this doesn’t mean that you can’t thrust like a fencer with deadly intent, but it does mean that the whole mentality of the sport is one that is very restrained. Even the most basic fencer has enough control not to hurt someone gravely while fencing (barring some fluke happening).

Finally, like Adam said, the art is linear- it only works in one dimension. This means that you cover up your target area only in one direction, and that there is no lateral footwork taught. What if someone approaches you form the side? Or, even worse, knows Kali? I can assure you that the triangular footwork in Kali is an absolute b**** to deal with as a fencer- they constantly move side to side, hacking with a short blade and grabbing while you constantly want to move back and forth, thrusting and cutting and using your range. It’s a mess! And, if anyone manages to get through your effective range and past your guard, you’re sunk! There is no empty hand, close quarters, or anything similar taught.

As Adam hinted at, other WMA are full combat arts, so this isn’t anti-fencing or anti-WMA. The truth is that fencing has a highly structured and very rigid rule set, and that fencers are taught accordingly. This is good for sport fencers, but not good for serious combatants. So, the conclusion after 1,000 words- I love fencing, but fencing is a sport, and should be treated as such.

(but I'll bet I'd be hell in a street fight if I had a car antenna!)

[Wynnston]

To add on to what Adam R said...

...snips very good post..........

(but I'll bet I'd be hell in a street fight if I had a car antenna!)

But not the telescopic variety right? :D

Both the previous two posts are very good and cover the shortcomings of fencing as an MA. BJJ, judo, wrestling, muay thai and MMA are all contact sports and I would imagine that the only real difference between the sport versions and real fighting or self defence versions are how long you hold chokes, how hard you can hit or where you can hit. I mean, even the sport versions of some of those MA's go for knockouts which seems pretty close to a real fight to me.

Hard hitting is expressly not allowed in fencing, you don't get more points for hitting somneone really hard and leaving big bruises everywhere. In a competition trying to hit harder than is necessary is a way of wasting energy and collecting warnings or cards.

That said, the sense of distance, timing, fake attacks (feints) and the speed of execution required in fencing are useful to any MA in a general sense as long as you can find a way of applying them to your specific requirements. JKD is the only art I'm aware of that has taken modern fencing moves and applied it to an empty hand art. Obviously the origins of modern sport fencing were martial but the martial bit has pretty much gone now.

[Adam R]

Although the geometry awareness - the sense of 'line' in fencing translates to any linear attack - either open hand, jian or yari (to cross culture) - but - other actual MAs have these in AND martial intent :D

[Cudgel]

erm....sorta right there...sorta.
An epee is a training weapons for a smallsword, which is a dueling weapon not a battle feild weapon, which didnt come about until sometime in the ealry 18th century, AFTER the musketeers, who used sideswords, which are cut and thrust swords.

[Adam R]

erm....sorta right there...sorta.
An epee is a training weapons for a smallsword, which is a dueling weapon not a battle feild weapon, which didnt come about until sometime in the ealry 18th century, AFTER the musketeers, who used sideswords, which are cut and thrust swords.

Nope - epee is a differnt weapon to a smallsword - foil was the training weapon - epee a duelling weapon in it's own right. The modern rules of right of way (or lack of) are a descendant of the uses.

[iolair]

Increasingly, people will take up épée without training foil first (although I've fenced épée 12 years, and did do a year on foil before that). Foil I find frustrating though ... dumb right of way rules and all that target area you can't use, not to mention flick attacks.

But as a martial art - well, it helps your co-ordination, timing and distance, so it's useful cross training, but very limited as a martial skill in its own right.

[Cudgel]

you might not be aware of the fact that epee translates as sword, it has historically been used to refer to all types ofs swords in italien from two handed to rapiers to cut and thrust side swords and to smalls swords.

[Adam R]

Iolair - Yes - I learned epee - from the start, thats all our club did really :D. The frusrtration with foil is that it is at odds with itself, right of way rules exist to prepare you to fight with smallsword, but now it is a competitive sport the rules are used as a guideline on how to win, not develop good technique in a killing/wounding sword style :bang: Flick hits are a fencing thing in general - nice way to land hits on the wrist/forearm in epee too.

Cudgel: Yes indeed - the Italians refer to the weapon as Spada (sword) rather than epee. I think neat classifications are a modern invention though ;)

[Cudgel]

Ive seen both epee and spada used to refer to swords in italian. CAnt back it up right now beause I dont ahve my books and I never bothered to learn italian.

[Stolenbjorn]

Fiore di LIberi operates with spada both for broadsword and longsword

[Stolenbjorn]

I'm curious... what is it in particular about sport fencing that stops it from being an effective art? BJJ, judo, wrestling, muay thai and MMA are all unarmed sport arts that have effective crossover to real-life situations, so why is it that weapons should be different?

It seems that this discussion have landed on defining weastern fencing as in olympic fencing. I read from those that actually do what I call "Olympic fencing" that it's not much of a martial art, so I must thrust ;) them on that.


BUT Timmy Boy:


There's MUCH more to weastern fencing than Olympic fencing!!!

Many of the weastern medieval/renissanse-manuals presents you a system that integrates wresteling with weapons (swords, daggers, etc), and theese systems ARE martial arts.

So the simplest sollution for you (if you still want to learn weastern fencing and not only olympic fencing) is to seek out a WMA-community that teach from historical manuals (There are several links to online manuals and clubs here on this forum and on www.Swordforum.com ).

[ocianain]

I envy you guy's for studying fencing, I was always intrigued by it. Far be it from me to disagree (and I'm not going to) but, if Olympic fencing isn't a MA, is it close to one? I mean, if you have so much skill you can lightly touch some one, don't you have enough skill to penetrate on demand? If you're skilled enough to draw first blood and not kill, aren't you skilled enough to kill? Likewise, if you are informed enough to know the shortcomings of foil, don't you know what to train to get around those shortcomings? Good discussion though. My favorite link is http://www.swordhistory.com/

[Cudgel]

those are good point but think about this. you spend so much time training NOT to kill or injure that it is a subconscience part of how you "fight" so even when you need to kill or injure you most likely wont because of all teh reflexes you instilled inyourself not to.

[ocianain]

cudgel, Point well taken. Always thought fencing was cool though. There's a sport that would seem to be perfect for ESPN (I mean if they can have poker why not fencing).

[Cudgel]

while never haveing seen any sport fencing, on TV or in person, I cant really ahve an opion on it, buti have heard that the reason its not widly televised is becasue teh action is too hard to follow becasue of teh speed and the thinness of the weapons, that and the weird rules.

[ocianain]

Cudgel, Add some music, colorful outfits and half naked girls (cheerleaders) and how could you go wrong? Guy's fighting with weapons, music and women sounds like it's made for TV!

[lklawson]

if Olympic fencing isn't a MA, is it close to one?
Depends on your defnitition of "Martial Art."

At the very least, it's a Martially Inspired Sport... Which is darn close to a Martial Art.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[Cudgel]

Cudgel, Add some music, colorful outfits and half naked girls (cheerleaders) and how could you go wrong? Guy's fighting with weapons, music and women sounds like it's made for TV!
It depends on what you define as a weapon. the tool sused in sport fencing arent relaly weapons IMO,maybe the epee if were unbated.

[ocianain]

Cudgel, From the outside looking in they look like weapons. I don't know the in's and out's of it like you and others here do. I just think it's cool, fast paced, tension filled, add women and music and I could see little kids wanting to be swordsmen!

[AZeitung]

Well, if you try brining them into Canada without declaring them, they'll probably get you for felony weapons smuggling, because they're practice *weapons*. So, by some definitions, they are weapons. They're definitely not swords, though.

[AgentEpilot]

I have done fencing for 2 years at California Fencing Academy. Fun stuff.

[Dillon]

I was thinking about the "right of way" rules, and why they would have developed. One possibility would be that they were developed to reduce or eliminate the phenomenon of mutual kills (ai-uchi in Japanese sword arts, I believe). If both duellists were allowed to attack simeltaneously (sp?) there would be an unfortunate number of incidents where both sides were maimed or killed outright. The right of way rulings may have served to prevent or mitigate that undesirable outcome.

I'm no fencer, so this is just speculation of course.

[Cuchulain82]

@ocianain

Fencing is tons of fun, and it is a sport that is very martial. The lines of attack, the footwork, the ability to know your range- these are all very helpful skills to have. However, as someone who is an experienced fencer and who is now studying kali, I feel safe in saying that fencing isn't a viable form of self defense. Think of it this way- imagine if you studied karate with the restrictions of only being able to move back and forth on a 3 foot wide strip, and you were not able to hit harder then a touch so light your opponent could barely feel it. Yes, it would be combative, but would it really be self defense? If you think it is self defense, then let me ask this- is it self defense to the same degree as boxing or MT? Obviously, I don't think so. With that said, I love fencing, think it is fun, and would encourage anyone to do it.

Like Cudgel said, fencing on TV doesn't work well because it is so fast. I mean, you really don't know how fast it is to non-fencers until you try to watch it. What you see when watching olympic fencing on TV is two people, in white outfits with masks on and wires coming out of their backs- why wires you ask? Because the touches come so fat that electronic buzzers are necessary to judge who has touched first.

These contestants will continue waiting around for 5-15 seconds at a time, followed by an explosion of action and then someone pumping a fist. Somewhere in a slit second, one of the contestants has moved in, taken right of way (if necessary), and scored a touch. But it is soooooo fast that you need the instant replay that follows, or else most people watching at home won't be able to tell what is going on.

Also, as mentioned above, fencing requires protective gear and masks- and it's pretty tough to identify with a hero if they're constantly in a full facemask. Although I would like to see fencing on TV, I think it would be very tricky.

If you do want to see fencing, stick to movies. Two of the movies with better fencing scenes recently have been "The Mask of Zorro" with Antonio Banderas and Anthony Hopkins and "The Princess Bride" with Cary Elwes and many others. Honestly, if you haven't seen "The Princess Bride" you need to go out and rent the movie anyway. Better yet, get a girl and make it a date- it is a solid date movie ;)

@Stolenbjorn

I don't know much about non-olympic fencing, but I wouldn't call it fencing. Fencing is exclusively the olympic veriety, right? While there are many other viable, practical, and well developed wester MA systems, I would call them boxing systems, or sword systems, but never fencing. Maybe that's just me.

@Dilon

Well done! I didn't know the answer to your question for sure, so I googled it. You were right! Here is what I found from this link (http://quis.qub.ac.uk/fencing/aboutf.html):

Right of way.
The rule of right of way was established (in modern sport fencing, in historical training it was used for a slightly different purpose) to resolve the problem of simultaneous hits in foil and sabre fencing. A fencer gains the right of way by threatening the other fencer with the blade, either by initiating attack or by establishing "point in line" before the opponent attacks. Right of way ends when an attack misses, falls short, is broken off, or is deflected away from the target (parried) by the defender. After parrying an attack, the defender can begin a riposte (counter attack) before the opponent recovers. This constitutes a new attack and established right of way for the former defender. If the defender doesn't riposte, the situation is up in the air. Either fencer can then establish right of way by initiating a new attack. Essentially, it is an attack when a fencer's weapon threatens a valid target and will score a hit if the defender does nothing to prevent it.
Apparently right of way was developed to deal with simultaneous kills- which occur very prequently in non-electric bouts, btw.

Are there any more questions? I will be happy to share what I know. I would recommend to anyone that they start fencing- it is fun, fast paced, and very athletic. However, don't expect to become an complete warrior studing fencing- the system just isn't set up for that.

[Chris Umbs]

@ocianain
@Stolenbjorn

I don't know much about non-olympic fencing, but I wouldn't call it fencing. Fencing is exclusively the olympic veriety, right? While there are many other viable, practical, and well developed wester MA systems, I would call them boxing systems, or sword systems, but never fencing. Maybe that's just me.


There are many kinds of 'fencing'. Sport(aka Olympic or electric), Classical (foil, sabre epee, taught as preperation for a duel with sharps), and Historical (older weapons). Also the SCA sometimes calls what they do fencing.

See also
http://www.ahfi.org
Chris

[Elithril]

i did fencing for a year and a half, good fun!

I got so far as to compete in a North west tournament (UK). Got my ass handed to me :D Although i got further than my instructor expected.

He believed i could go quite far if i went serious, but it was done through college and they stopped it :(

I left for uni and they didnt do it, being lazy i gave up ^^

[Wynnston]

Good to see a live fencing thread :)

I've done foil on and off for 25 years and some epee in that time as well. I've also done a TKD like martial art (Choi Kwang Do) which is non competitive. Based on these experiences and a few MAP meets I would say (like most other people here) that olympic style fencing is not an MA although there are skills from it that are relevant to MA's. There's a previous thread that covers a lot of these issues

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24905

The whole popularity and audience friendly issue has been worrying the powers that be in fencing for some time. The notorious flick hit in foil became popular in the 1980's and virtually dominant in the 1990's until some of the better foilists found defences against them. This season there has been a change in the electric scoring box timings that are supposed prevent flick hits from registering to encourage more sword play. It's causing a lot of protest but I personally think that the main problem has been weak presiding for allowing a flick hit (without threatening the target) to be a valid attack.

There have also been some more far out ideas for making foil more user friendly like changing the target area and eliminating the off target light to allow the use of wireless scoring apparatus. Lot's of protest again so I'm not sure where they will go. Masks with clear plastic fronts have been introduced at international level to allow people to see who is who and help them identify with a fencer. Not sure it's worked yet.

In terms of complex rules that are difficult to follow and cause endless arrguments in competitions, foil and sabre are the culprits. Epee doesn't really have any rules so that should make it more popular and watchable. However the speed of actions in all the weapons will always be a problem for watchers unless heavier weapons are brought in to slow everyone down.

[Bluce Ree]

I personally would love to see a proper match between all weapon arts, historical fencing, kenjutsu, kali, CMA etc.

Now that would be something to watch. :cool:

[ocianain]

Bluce, I saw a matchup between a kendo stylist and fencer on tv. The fencer ate him alive.He owned him.

[Wynnston]

Bluce, I saw a matchup between a kendo stylist and fencer on tv. The fencer ate him alive.He owned him.

Lol. Do you know which weapon the fencer was using? Bet it was sabre.

Trouble is a hit with an olympic style sabre will generally sting and no more than that. However, a friend of mine needed stitches in his hand recently after being sliced during a competition by a sabre - freak accident, I've never heard of anything like it before.

I've fought foil with the same guy with both of us wearing just a mask, glove T shirt and shorts for a laugh (not to be recommended and I won't be repeating the exercise - ever). However, all we got were some small bruises and we were going for it big time. So, the effectiveness of Olympic fencing weapons for inflicting damage is minimal unless you either hit with the point in the eye or you snap off the top third of a foil or epee to make the end sharp and the blade more rigid. Most of the deaths and serious injuries in fencing have arisen from a broken blade penetrating masks or clothing.

I've never done Kendo but I bet a bokken would sting more than a sabre if you're just wearing a T shirt :)

[ocianain]

Can't say what kind of weapon it was, but, he kept stabbing the kendo styist with the point. It was ugly.

[Wynnston]

Can't say what kind of weapon it was, but, he kept stabbing the kendo styist with the point. It was ugly.

OK, that would probably either be foil or epee rather than sabre although sabreuers can do point hits if they have to :)

At the end of the day, a really good fighter will adapt to any new styles and techniques and find ways of using them or countering them. That is as relevant between 2 foil fencers as it is between an epeeist and a kendoka or a foilist and an FMA'er etc etc. If that kendoka was any good eventually he would have figured out a defence and an effective attacking strategy

[Cudgel]

I've never done Kendo but I bet a bokken would sting more than a sabre if you're just wearing a T shirt :)

Kendoka use a shinai not a bokken, which half the weight and made of split bamboo. They hurt like hell and can break bones like the wrists or the collar bone but usually the worst that you would get through normal clothes would welts, which sting a lot but thats about it.

And I dont think a bokken would sting so much as erm......feel like you were hit with a wooden club :love:

[Wynnston]

Kendoka use a shinai not a bokken, which half the weight and made of split bamboo. They hurt like hell and can break bones like the wrists or the collar bone but usually the worst that you would get through normal clothes would welts, which sting a lot but thats about it.

And I dont think a bokken would sting so much as erm......feel like you were hit with a wooden club :love:


Ow :)

Excuse my ignorance on the bokken vs shinai.

Is there much point hitting in eastern weapon systems? My un-educated guess is that many western weapons are point oriented whereas many eastern weapons are edge oriented.

[Cudgel]

well as I dont relaly know all that much about eastern sword styles I can say whether is an emphasis on point versus edge, but I do know that in several western sword styles there is an emphasis on the edge over the point, Geroge silver's, and the style shown in MI33. And IN german longsword cuts, thrusts and slices are all important to the system.
the farther a style gets from being a battle feld art the greater the emphasis on the point over the edge, rapiers were civilian self defence weapons and small swords that came later were dueling weapons and then the tools used in sport fencing.

[Bluce Ree]

I found a site with some cool fencing pics, including one of a fencer vs a kendoka.

Anyone up for a MAP meet in Yoshinaga? :p

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://titechfencers.at.infoseek.co.jp/images.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://titechfencers.at.infoseek.co.jp/images.html%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

Excuse the language, it's translated from Japanese.

[Louie]

I personally would love to see a proper match between all weapon arts, historical fencing, kenjutsu, kali, CMA etc.

Now that would be something to watch. :cool:

Hi Bluce....

A few of us Mappers (Glasgow-Greenock) occassionally get together for some blistering weapons training which includes some Kali V historical fencing.
Your welcome to join in next time we get together.

Louie

[Bluce Ree]

Hi Bluce....

A few of us Mappers (Glasgow-Greenock) occassionally get together for some blistering weapons training which includes some Kali V historical fencing.
Your welcome to join in next time we get together.

Louie

I'd love to, but I don't have any weapons experience, other than my friends and I attacking each other with my bokkens. And I just realised after checking your profile that I've had your website in my favourites for about a month!

[Louie]

I'd love to, but I don't have any weapons experience, other than my friends and I attacking each other with my bokkens. And I just realised after checking your profile that I've had your website in my favourites for about a month!

Hi Bluce...

For weapons training in Glasgow you should check out Elhig's Wednesday night classes at Knightswood Secondary School in Glasgow.

I'm usually in the Battery Park in Gourock, Sunday afternoon's for a bit of ad-hoc training. No experience necessary just PM me if your thinking of making the journey!!!!

Louie

[Wynnston]

Hi Bluce...

For weapons training in Glasgow you should check out Elhig's Wednesday night classes at Knightswood Secondary School in Glasgow.

Louie


I'll second that, Elhig and Teacher run a good club and you'll have a great time and probably learn a lot of stuff as well.

[Cuchulain82]

I've fought foil with the same guy with both of us wearing just a mask, glove T shirt and shorts for a laugh (not to be recommended and I won't be repeating the exercise - ever). However, all we got were some small bruises and we were going for it big time. So, the effectiveness of Olympic fencing weapons for inflicting damage is minimal unless you either hit with the point in the eye or you snap off the top third of a foil or epee to make the end sharp and the blade more rigid. Most of the deaths and serious injuries in fencing have arisen from a broken blade penetrating masks or clothing.
I used to practice sabre by fighting in short sleeves, or occasionally with no shirt at all. In hindsight it was probably not advisable, but our logic was that if we had any cuts or areas that were repeatedly marked up, we would know where the weak spots in our defense were.

[Stolenbjorn]

Geroge silver's, and the style shown in MI33. And IN german longsword cuts, thrusts and slices are all important to the system.
the farther a style gets from being a battle feld art the greater the emphasis on the point over the edge, rapiers were civilian self defence weapons and small swords that came later were dueling weapons and then the tools used in sport fencing.

I think that the thrust (the point then) is the main thing; it's got longer range, wounds lightly armoured opponents easier (cuts are best on naked people, but most people in europe wear clothes), it's faster and is harder to intercept, but it's easier to deflect. (The fact that most sword in europe are straight and pointy should support my statement.)

The point isn't suvereen, though; it's a bit like stone-scissors-paper thing: cutting/deflections/coverings - thrusting -grappeling! Taking an example from the manual i know the best; Fior di Battaglia; many cuts ends up in a stab and actually cuts outwards, so a cut that doesn't reach the opponent can be followed up by a stab. Cuts are allso exellent coverings, and the very I-33 that Cudgel mentions have entry with a cut/covering as the standard way of finishing off an opponent that stands undecidedly with his sword in the centre; you enter the "zone of death" and engage his blade with a threat(the cut) that allso contacts with the opponents blade (unless he's a dork, doesn't parry and die) -once the contact is made, you lock his blade with your buckler, and finish of the opponent with a stab. Grappeling is alfa and omega if you encounter well armoured opponents, as either a stab or a cut from a sword is sufficient to penentrate european armor.

[cloudz]

I'm curious... what is it in particular about sport fencing that stops it from being an effective art? BJJ, judo, wrestling, muay thai and MMA are all unarmed sport arts that have effective crossover to real-life situations, so why is it that weapons should be different?

..erm this may have been answered, but serious weapons like swords are designed to kill/injure swiftly - not go 5 rounds, score points w/e

kenjutsu - japanese sword fencing, sport equivelant kendo.
kenjutsu just does not translate well into sport - in my view you may as well do stick work. Or kendo is just not a very good representation of the sword art. Kenjutsu relies on slicing and thrusting as well as parrying. Kendo relies on silly hits to score points. If you are doing kendo you most definately are not doing anything that remotely resemble the true art of japanese swordsmanship.

As in most things you need to define your goals - what you want to gain from practice

same things as western fencing / different weapons, different styles.

We 'spar' with foam covered 'sticks' - but we don't turn it into a sport mindset - it is not the one we want. When one hit could mean serious injury/death with real weapons, do you really want all your focus on sport? I'd say it is different from empty hand. Not all traditional arts/methods are redundant quite yet Timmy my boy ;)

But if you want sport - go with sport!
Its not like you'll be going down your local with a sword under you coat, but i can usually find mine in the back of my car! (only a blunt practice one of course) ;)

[demivolte]

Hi we fence in Malibu, California! We are classical fencers focusing on foil, epee and sabre as it was being practiced in the 19th century. By then it was recreational mostly but still very fun and addictive. We try to stay away from the "What's the better weapon?" talk. A good friend of mine once said that if they were sharp then we wouldn't be here! Anyway, we say go with what interests you.

Andrew
Malibu Fencing Club
http://malibufencingclub.com

[Xoxi]

I'm a bit late joining the thread.. But to answer the original post - I have done 5-6 years of fencing, olympic sport style.

I'm only serious about foil, but will have a hit around with the other weapons.

My 10c:
As a MA in its own right, fencing is entirely useless and has no street application. Its just a sport (although a very fun sport). But competitive fencing does ingrain some fundamental skills that are essential to real fighting - controlling distance, explosive speed, timing, balance, tactics. My fencing experience has been a huge benefit to my karate training. The skills are all transferable.

[cloudz]

I'd go with that^

facing off with weapons makes things like timing and distance, strategy, speed in arriving all the more valuable.

I enjoy sports fencing - prefering Western to Kendo, but it is wise to differentiate it from what it would otherwise be like. My school from time to time has sporting comps, using kenjutsu, and I can tell you they look nothing like kendo. The most fun is when you get to use 2 weapons against 2 attackers with one each...:)

We make do...hopefully with the best of both worlds, and a video camera!

One observation I have with kendo - is that it is very much 2 handed. I don't mind so much how they strike- but it has always come over as very 1 dimensional to me.
With the right amount of conditioning, wielding a katana with one hand gives you a lot more options and allows for more skillfull use imo.

It is worth remembering that samurai traditionally probably used it 2 handed in battle so that they could hack through the other guys 'armour', of course we have no such worries..

[Cudgel]

It is worth remembering that samurai traditionally probably used it 2 handed in battle so that they could hack through the other guys 'armour', of course we have no such worries..
No th likly reason samurai used a katana two handed was because they didnt use sheilds so since you have two hands why not grip it with two hands. not to hack chop or cut through armor, which is some what impossible and is a subject that has been much brought up.

[cloudz]

when I say 'armour', I mean the heavy fabrics/leather they wore and bits of protection etc. I'm sure a good warrior would want a good balance of movement to being weighed down/protected..
Obviously in a life and death encounter you want weight in your cuts you want your first to be your last.

My point being in sparring/sport I prefer going single handed. For the speed of positioning and getting in also better parrying range. If I've got time to make a double hand cut or thrust I just might. ;) Also if I am holding with 2 hands I can move,strike or thrust with 1 hand - as you can see its a pretty mute point.

some cut and thrusts in kenjutsu are often done with the flat of the hand on the back edge of the katana for guidence or end of handle for pressure. It is actually a pretty close in art - to use one properly you have to be nice and friendly.

I'm sure the samurai didn't mind the odd cut and nick here and there.

[Cudgel]

when I say 'armour', I mean the heavy fabrics they wore and protection etc.
Obviously in a life and death encounter you want weight in your cuts you want your first to be your last.

My point being in sparring/sport I prefer going single handed. For the speed of positioning and getting in also better parrying range. If I've got time to make a double hand cut or thrust I just might.

heavy fabric and padding is one thing but the Japanese did have armor, made of steel, iron and leather.
you wouldn't use a cut against armor, you thrust into gaps.
And using more power doesnt mean that you will end the fight quicker, infact a manual I study states what to do against someone who uses excesive power and points out that to do so is flwed.
IN my expericene
it takes just as much time to make a cut ith one hand as it does with two, infact you can mke faster more powerful cuts with two hands thatn with one as well as having more control of the sword.

[cloudz]

I edited my post cudgel - basically I think 1 or 2 handed thing is pretty mute - cos it comes down to strategy. I was a ware of the 'gaps' - lets just say we don't dress up :D

[Cudgel]

I noticed that but that was after I made my post and I had to beat feet to get to a class so had no time to actaully read what you had posted or make any kind of edit to my own post.

So we are agreed it seems. :D

Oh and the use of the free hand on teh spine or flat of the sword is a lot like half-swording in KDR and Fiore, only its actually gripping the blade with your hand.

[Stolenbjorn]

GEO:
Yoy seem to have the most experience with 1h. fencing, and it is therefore only natural that you feel that that's what's most swift and easy.

I have the most experience with 2h. fencing, and I feel that I have more feel and control of swords when I can wield them twohanded and not onehanded.

I doubt the samurais used their katanas in all out war-situations at all, swords are above all status symbols, and if they carrried them, they would have been back up weapons -after polearms and lances. The exception would have been when they encounter an enemy worthy of (and willing to participate in) the honour of a sword-duel. Katana is and probably was surrounded in much ritualization and it seems that theese rituals consisted in using the blades twohanded -not to power through armor, but because they're supposed to be wielded that way; beeing tradition and all -and because if you don't have a wakisashi/tanto/sai in your left hand, you might as well place your second hand on the handle -so that you know where it is.

To only use one weapon-wielded both hands - demands much skill of you, and it brings you closer to the enemy's sword than if you wield a weapon onehanded A katanaduel is a test of nerve and the ability to both parry and attack at the same time.

[cloudz]

Fair enough..I don't disagree that in a confrontation with katanas - 2 handed techniques are just as valid as 1 hand.

Like I said though you have to take into account the size and style of the weapon. I think you are quite right about the katana - it is a pretty up close and personal weapon - you can do quite a bit with a free hand.

eg. snake it up and through the forearms of an opponents 2 handed grip(when he is striking down with a cut) and use it to control the attackers movement away from you - of course getting in a good position to do so is the hard part.

It is worth remembering as in all weapons fighting - unarmed/armed vs. armed etc. - you are still fighting the man and not necessarily the weapon..

both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages - all depends on the situation I guess.

I don't disgree that on a battlefield longer weapons would be those of choice thus rendering other tactics more useful.

I do agree if you've got nothing better to do with a free hand, you may as well use it, but no need to give the game away on how..in kenjutsu it's used more as the control and stability - my view is that its use can be fluid and changing in respect to the confrontation - rather than fixed.

:)

[Stolenbjorn]

I do agree if you've got nothing better to do with a free hand, you may as well use it, but no need to give the game away on how..in kenjutsu it's used more as the control and stability - my view is that its use can be fluid and changing in respect to the confrontation - rather than fixed.

:)
Spot on! The left hand is (in european longsword) used extesively for things like the snake-thingie you mention, and I can only asume that the same will/would be the case for samurai-katana-duels. But when you not are involved in grappletechniques, the left hand can provide the best aid in the combat by beeing placed on the pommel to provide extra control of the blade (again in european longsword-asuming the same is the case with katana).

[blackpuma]

... if you've got nothing better to do with a free hand, you may as well use it, ...

Absolutely.

I'm still learning to be aware of this... and get punched in the face a lot more than I should. :bang: (Yes, I'm wearing a mask.) Though, one also has to watch the knee and foot. I got kneed in the groin so hard last week that even with a good cup it stung for a quite a while. :eek:

The historic German manuals talk of three ranges:
1) zu fechten, when you're outside of striking distance (with the longsword)
2) krieg, when you're in striking distance (with the longsword)
3) ringen, when you're close enough to reach out and punch someone. :)

Interestingly, ringen is also the word for unarmed combat, and the old manuals show a lot of dirty tricks with the off hand.

[Adam R]

The historic German manuals talk of three ranges:
1) zu fechten, when you're outside of striking distance (with the longsword)
2) krieg, when you're in striking distance (with the longsword)
3) ringen, when you're close enough to reach out and punch someone. :)

Interestingly, ringen is also the word for unarmed combat, and the old manuals show a lot of dirty tricks with the off hand.

As far as I am aware - the Germans do not specifically state these ranges - these are extrapolated meanings, zufechten is mentioned - ringen is just wrestling - hence the parallel to close distance. Krieg is not (at least in any of the treatises I have read) described as a distance (explicitly).

Your definitions come from Christian's book I suspect, he has used modern concepts with german system terms applied to them.

Sorry to be pedantic :)

[Wynnston]

So Timmy me lad, has anything posted here tempted you to start fencing and if so - which flavour?

[Wynnston]

I'm a bit late joining the thread.. But to answer the original post - I have done 5-6 years of fencing, olympic sport style.

I'm only serious about foil, but will have a hit around with the other weapons.

My 10c:
As a MA in its own right, fencing is entirely useless and has no street application. Its just a sport (although a very fun sport). But competitive fencing does ingrain some fundamental skills that are essential to real fighting - controlling distance, explosive speed, timing, balance, tactics. My fencing experience has been a huge benefit to my karate training. The skills are all transferable.

Another foilist! - joy :D

[Xoxi]

I'm not gangly enough for epee :D

Timmy - someone should warn you about deformities before you start... After a few years you have one massive forearm, one massive calf muscle and one side of your abs stronger than the other. But a powerful handshake. :Alien:

[Chris Umbs]

I'm not gangly enough for epee :D

Timmy - someone should warn you about deformities before you start... After a few years you have one massive forearm, one massive calf muscle and one side of your abs stronger than the other. But a powerful handshake. :Alien:

Very true, you'll want to do something like pilates to make up for it. I think the most common injuries for beginners are in the lead ankle, knee, shin either from not having the front foot and knee facing forward or just overly stomping footwork.

Chris

[Cudgel]

I'm not gangly enough for epee :D

Timmy - someone should warn you about deformities before you start... After a few years you have one massive forearm, one massive calf muscle and one side of your abs stronger than the other. But a powerful handshake. :Alien:
thats why you train both hands ;)

[Xoxi]

Yeah I should have done that... I'm an asymmetric mutant now.

[Wynnston]

thats why you train both hands ;)

Nice one :D

Unfortunately Olympic style kit is expensive enough without having to buy right and left handed versions :cry:

Not sure what the rules would be about switching hands in a competition. You couldn't do it during a fight as you would have to change your clothes & weapon :D

Chris, you're right about those injuries and I would add the over lunge where the front knee goes over the toes or more and may even have a twist in it as well :eek:

[blackpuma]

As far as I am aware - the Germans do not specifically state these ranges

If you're saying that there's no glossary or explicit list (such as Ringeck's explicitly listing the "three wonders"), I believe you're right.

If you mean that there weren't three phases of combat (OK, so maybe "ranges" is a poor term; :rolleyes: I stand corrected), and that those three terms aren't used in conjuction with those three phases, I'll have to disagree.

I might not have the world's greatest intellect, but (1) there appear to be three phases of combat in their manuals (2) we need names and (3) those terms appear in conjunction with those phases of combat, thus it seems a reasoned conclusion.

You're free to fuss over the fact that the recorders of the Lichtenauer tradition forgot to spell everything out step by step for us. :D Past a certain point I don't let it bother me and have no problem saying that represents a modern understanding of a subject that's opaque in many ways. I'm open to alternative, reasoned opinions, and have changed my mind in the face of a compelling contrary argument. Until then I reserve the right to spout off my understanding (including those times when I'm struggling to put both feet in my mouth). :eek:

Your definitions come from Christian's book
I don't have that one. I've seen it a few times and have casually flipped through it. IIRC it was only English (?) in which case I'm not too interested.

[Adam R]

If you're saying that there's no glossary or explicit list (such as Ringeck's explicitly listing the "three wonders"), I believe you're right.

If you mean that there weren't three phases of combat (OK, so maybe "ranges" is a poor term; :rolleyes: I stand corrected), and that those three terms aren't used in conjuction with those three phases, I'll have to disagree.

I might not have the world's greatest intellect, but (1) there appear to be three phases of combat in their manuals (2) we need names and (3) those terms appear in conjunction with those phases of combat, thus it seems a reasoned conclusion.

You're free to fuss over the fact that the recorders of the Lichtenauer tradition forgot to spell everything out step by step for us. :D Past a certain point I don't let it bother me and have no problem saying that represents a modern understanding of a subject that's opaque in many ways. I'm open to alternative, reasoned opinions, and have changed my mind in the face of a compelling contrary argument. Until then I reserve the right to spout off my understanding (including those times when I'm struggling to put both feet in my mouth). :eek:


I don't have that one. I've seen it a few times and have casually flipped through it. IIRC it was only English (?) in which case I'm not too interested.

Well - I did say I was being pedantic :D. You are right - the distances exist whatever we call them - it helps to define them within the style we study - I'm not allergic to that - but I always err on the side of caution when it comes to using this modern application of their terminology too much - it might mask something we have missed or confuse something they were trying to describe - see how often that happens on forums :eek:

Yeah - that is Christian's book of extrapolated principals - I'm fairly hesitant about that kind of thing - I prefer translations - translations with the original text by preference. The author's interpretations where they appear are an interesting aside.

[blackpuma]

... I always err on the side of caution when it comes to using this modern application of their terminology too much - it might mask something we have missed or confuse something they were trying to describe...

I'm in complete agreement with you there.

It's an important point that can always bear mention from time to time.

[Cudgel]

Nice one :D

Unfortunately Olympic style kit is expensive enough without having to buy right and left handed versions :cry:

Not sure what the rules would be about switching hands in a competition. You couldn't do it during a fight as you would have to change your clothes & weapon :D


I wasnt aware that you would have to buy a full set up for both hands just to TRAIN. Ive used right handed fencing jackets before, and im a lefty using my left hand. I dont see the problem.

[Xoxi]

Well.. theres a couple of problems.

I think what Wynnston meant about changing hands mid-contest is that you have to unplug and run the wire to the other hand, which means taking your jacket off.

As for gear - if you are left handed and want to fence right handed, you can still use the same handed jacket and lames but the zips will be on the wrong side, as is the little ring thing for attaching the wire, so your arm could get caught in it. There is no way to use a lefthanded sword in your right hand so you need another set. Another glove is fairly cheap.

But youre right, theres nothing stopping you buying/borrowing an opposite handed sword and practising flicks and footwork drills. It would be good for the body, and I wish I had done some of that.. But hard to find the time since it doesnt improve your skills.

[Stolenbjorn]

Well.. theres a couple of problems.

I think what Wynnston meant about changing hands mid-contest is that you have to unplug and run the wire to the other hand, which means taking your jacket off.

As for gear - if you are left handed and want to fence right handed, you can still use the same handed jacket and lames but the zips will be on the wrong side, as is the little ring thing for attaching the wire, so your arm could get caught in it. Would this have been a problem in the renissanse as well? :p

[Wynnston]

Well.. theres a couple of problems.

I think what Wynnston meant about changing hands mid-contest is that you have to unplug and run the wire to the other hand, which means taking your jacket off.

As for gear - if you are left handed and want to fence right handed, you can still use the same handed jacket and lames but the zips will be on the wrong side, as is the little ring thing for attaching the wire, so your arm could get caught in it. There is no way to use a lefthanded sword in your right hand so you need another set. Another glove is fairly cheap.

But youre right, theres nothing stopping you buying/borrowing an opposite handed sword and practising flicks and footwork drills. It would be good for the body, and I wish I had done some of that.. But hard to find the time since it doesnt improve your skills.

That is what I meant plus changing the asymmetric zip jacket & lame for left handed ones as it's not a good idea to expose the zip on the sword arm side. If you have a zip up the back job then no problem.

I sometimes do footwork drills on my left side but I've rarely bothered trying to fence left handed. Might give it a try in training one day to see what it's like again. I seem to remember it's like trying to write with your non dominant hand - doable but extremely frustrating as you keep trying to write as well and as fast as normal and it just won't work.

Talking of handedness, a fencing urban myth has it that the upper levels of fencing are disproportionally populated by lefties. I've heard two reasons for this. One is that in the early stages of fencing careers lefties find it easier to deal with righties (because they meet more of them) and get to a higher level as a result. The other is that lefties are naturally more technically oriented and their brains are more suited to fencing than righties. I dunno if either explanation has merit or even if there really are a load of lefties at higher levels. If either explanation were true I guess you should see more lefties in tennis and badminton etc as well.

NOTE: I Googled this thing after writing the above which seems to partially support these ideas:

http://www.anythingleft-handed.co.uk/sports.html

[Cudgel]

meh

I occaisionally do SCA rapier fence and the loaner "armor" consists of right handed fencing jackets with the buttons in the front, and the SCA is known for being waaaaay super saftey conscience, so it cant be that unsafe to use a opposite handed jacket.

and im still confused about the whole lefty advatange. I remember breifly having an advantage being lefty but even I have trouble fighting agsint lefties with my left hand and switching to my right hand seems to work better against lefties in my experience.
BUt it might be from all those that I got teh feeling that it was " unchivalrous" to use the elft hadn agsint a righty if you are naturally left handed.

[robertmap]

I have to agree with Adam R- sport fencing is not a great martial skill. I am a proficient fencer (saber fighter specifically) and I recently started studying Kali. Actually, I just posted about this, so you can give it a read if you click here (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=541973&postcount=62). I don't mean to disparage fencing, but if you want serious martial skill, I would say that fencing as you will probably find it will usually be a sport MA- sorry.

Hi - I know what you mean but I disagree - let me explain why...

Way back when I used to fence - Mainly foil, some epee (my favorite weapon) and a little sabre - the thing I loved - especially with foil - is that you actually got to kill people...

Now of course you didn't really kill people - that would be uncool - but when the foil went to the opponents heart and the foil did that lovely bendy thing that indicates it would have gone in and as I shout 'HELA' then I have killed my opponent.

That's a a great feeling (In a demented psychopathic sort of way) which I NEVER found in sparring or competition fighting either in Kung Fu or in Karate.

So, for me, in some ways fencing was truly martial.

Also I was lucky my instructor taught us a little quarterstaff and also some sword and dagger work (Take a broken foil - rework the blade and you have a dagger).

I DOOOOOOOO like double swords of any type.

OK Time for my medication now (probably need to increase the dosage again) :) :) :) :)

All the best.

Robert.

[cloudz]

:) hehe, I agree with both of you.

I read your post cuch, and in a way you are right and rob's right too.

If you'de had a real saber in your hand would he have disarmed you so easy?

probably not, you'de take his wrists off before he got near you with 2 short blade probably..unless he throws a one at you :D

In some sport MA's maybe they focus too much just on those aspacts that are under regulation, plus there's all different styles. When practiced traditionally, especially the japanese aikijutsu/aikido and most if not all others have some kind of martial techniques that serve to compliment the weapons. I think savate (?) from France is another such ma that derived from weapon skills. The practitioners themselves would have seen to that. Just like FMA that has stayed v.strong while others are more rare trained like that. The japanese have the short sword too and all sorts of stuff is taught to disarm and general combat involving weapons taught in traditional kenjutsu. FMA has stayed strong because it is both strong traditionally and with its sparring methods. I had a short play with the sticks not long ago and it was pretty tricky for sure.
There is no better way than to go from form to function than some sort of competative way of sparring. I can't stress that enough. The less rules the better - using lighter softer replicas of some kind is a great way of testing out what you learn. When sparring with bokken replicas we look for clean cuts and and thrusts distance speed and timeing and power is all important.Plus defence is important as well. For me though although I can't deny I enjoy the physical aspect, I do my best to use it as an opportunity to train detachment and awareness. win lose it's all a game.

Motive, intent, focus, action - there is no regret.

[Wynnston]

I think robertmap has got it :D

When you're in that zone in a fight focusing with everything you have on getting the last hit to win the fight or even the competition nothing else matters, it seems as if there is no-one else around you. Sometimes you can suprise yourself how quick you can move or how well timed a move can come off. There is also the adrenaline of knowing that if you screw up you're gonna get nailed and maybe lose the fight. That's what it's all about for me and it doesn't matter whether it's foil or epee or sabre or a couple of foam padded sticks or whatever - when it works it all feels the same and its great.

No fencing isn't particularly martial or realistic but is sure as hell can feel like it if you want it to :D