Carlos Castanada

[xen]

Anyone read Castenada books about his encounters with the yaqui shaman, Don Juan Matus?

Specifically, his third book, Journey to Ixtlan...

In it the concept of 'warriorship' is given a thorough treatment from the eyes of an apprentice.

I'd be interested in any views people have on the ideas presented.

[JTiedes]

sorry, only ever read "the art of dreaming" cant find any of his other works around here. maybe i just havent been looking hard enough though :p.

its real good stuff though, very thought provoking

[xen]

you've jumped right into the thick of it there :)

that was his ninth book in the series.

The first six were going along nicely, but then it gets very strange (from the perspective of the other books) because the timeline he was describing previously gets all messed up with him going back and filling in the gaps regarding the left-side awareness,

The writing style changes also. You can order the other books on-line...i don't think any are out of print.

[Hannibal]

Casteneda was exposed as a total fraud some time ago. Anything he says is not to be taken as being in any way authentic. If you find inspiration and thoughts being provoked from it then fine, i wish you well. But just be wary that the creator (for it is fictional) was out to deceive from the beginning.

[xen]

i was waiting for that, yeah i know of the situation having spent some time trawling the net and reading alot of conflicting evidence about his authenticity.

My own feeling is that their was some deception on his part. But the best one I read was that he was sat with some friends in the late 50's talking about how to get a message accross to people in the best way.

It was put to him that if you write claiming you know 'the truth' people will knock you down and pick holes in your arguments, question your authority and generally scoff at your efforts.

However, it was suggested to him that if you created a myth around the knowledge you wanted to share, something like meeting an wise old man, you were not presenting yourself to your audience, but presenting a reportage, you were merely the messenger, and thus if people took issue with the message, you would retain your integrity and thus your reputation.

Thus don Juan was born, the vehicle of expression for Castenada's own philosophies.

Like all surrounding the man, who knows how true this actually was?

i am not really concerned with the 'authenticity' of the actual events...more with the underlying messages about such area's as 'losing self-importance', creating 'smoke around your life', 'taking death as an advisor' etc

Again, i think people nowadays are too quick to judge any deviation from absolute recordable fact as a malicious deception. I like to think of his books akin to folk stories or fables, we know things didn't actually happen the way they are presented, but that doesn't mean there isn't truth (as in a 'that rings true to my experience') contained within the fiction.

I take it you've read some of his stuff then Hanibal, any comments on his descriptions of hunters and warriors?

[davethekodiak]

i read some of his stuff when i was younger... and im still in therapy. man, that stuff is awesomly insane!! but it opened my mind up for all things in my life. real or not, its very good reading, if you can hang with it.

and yes, i can read. i just choose not to most of the time :D

[JTiedes]

You can order the other books on-line...i don't think any are out of print.

its just my severe lack of cash thats holding me back:p

Casteneda was exposed as a total fraud some time ago. Anything he says is not to be taken as being in any way authentic. If you find inspiration and thoughts being provoked from it then fine, i wish you well. But just be wary that the creator (for it is fictional) was out to deceive from the beginning.

doesnt stop it from being considered some of the best modern literature written. its very well done, intriguing, and makes you think, sounds like a good book to me :)

[davethekodiak]

i like how he says don juan can instill fear in people just by looking into their eyes. that would be the ultimate ma move!!

my father in law knows a man that can do the same thing. i thik he is yaqui also

[JKD_forever]

I wish i could trip like Castaneda.
But i got ZMA .
lol if you get it you get it

[Hannibal]

To be honest I have not read much of his stuff, and what I did I found to be pretty standard "new age" type writings - you know, all style and no substance.

From a spiritual viewpoint I found it pretty empty, but that does not mean others can't find something in it. He reminds me of "John Gilby" and those "Secrets of Martial Arts" style books.

As for his intentions, well that will be open to debate. Personally I feel that better results and insights can be gleaned by studying the work of people who aren't fraudulent rather than trying to seprate the wheat from the large amounts of chaff that Casteneda produced.

But hey, what do I know? :)

[Hannibal]

its just my severe lack of cash thats holding me back:p



doesnt stop it from being considered some of the best modern literature written. its very well done, intriguing, and makes you think, sounds like a good book to me :)

I would agree if that was what it was being put forward as - but it isn't. Casteneda was not writing a "Gulliver's Travels" for the modern world. I am pretty sure he knew exactly what he was doing when he put pen to paper!

[gerard]

Who cares if CASTANEDA'S direct experience with Toltec knowledge was real or not. Shamanic practices have been practised long before Castaneda or other wrote about the topic.

Journey to Ixtlan is OK but you must read the best book of the series:

1. Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge ***** rating IMO

(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671600419/ref=pd_sxp_f/102-0361384-1868173)

2. Separate Reality ***** rating IMO

(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671208977/qid=1120019442/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0361384-1868173?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

The Art of Dreaming is also practiced by Chinese Daoists (Meng Gong) as part of their esoteric practices. Daoists (and Shamans) believe that dreams are the wanderings of the soul's conscious immaterial duplicate, set free by sleep while the actively operating soul remains in the body.

What Castaneda and Daoists teach in the art of dreaming is is the ability to enter dream state deliberately, as an act of will, fully conscious; so that eventually your are able to consciously discover the paradoxical and interdependent nature of dreaming and so-called reality.

Remember that Zhuang Zi (Chuang Tzu) wrote:

I dreamt I was a butterfly. I was conscious only of my fancies as a butterfly, and unconscious of my individuality as a man. Suddenly I awoke, and was myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming that I am a man. Someday the Great Awakening will come; we will realize that this life is no more than a dream, the great Confucius and you are both a dream…And I, who say all this is a dream, I, too, am a dream


However don't dare to practice alone or you can become insane. Better learn from an experienced master.

Castaneda has been touted as a con-artist but people fail to realise the underlying message of his books is in line with American Indian Shamanism (Ancient Mexican Toltecs), so ignore those claims and enjoy reading this great American writer.

http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda/donjuan1.html


Xie xie


:)

[xen]

re; 'new-age'...his first book was accepted as his masters thesis and his second as his doctorate (i think it was his second), so the underlying message did stand up to peer review under the discipline of anthropology...

also, it is worth noting how many of the 'new-age' books in the last 30 or so years referance carlos' works...

it seems that his ideas (as opposed to the actual events in his life) have served to influence many writers in this area, hence my motivation for encouraging some discussion.

For example, the idea of losing self-importance seems to be of particular relevence if considered in the context of the TMA's orginating from cultures that were influenced by Buddhism...

for 'self-importance' read 'desire of the ego' and you have a practical guide to the negative effects of believing that we are intrinsically more important than the world we share..

[JTiedes]

Castaneda has been touted as a con-artist but people fail to realise the underlying message of his books is in line with American Indian Shamanism (Ancient Mexican Toltecs), so ignore those claims and enjoy reading this great American writer.

http://www.prismagems.com/castaneda/donjuan1.html


Xie xie


:)


nice post gerard, yea i gave the art of dreaming to my gf( its the only one of his books ive found for free) and she totally loved it, just cause its a book that makes you think more than entertains you. when i read it i would have to stop every so often just to let it percolate a lil, think over it, it was too much to take in all at once