Surviving kicks whilst on the floor

[Paul Genge]

This is a direct link (http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/page46.html) to an article that explains Systema's approach to surviving kicks whilst on the floor. It also includes a short video clip showing the work in action.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[BackFistMonkey]

Interesting concepts , we do a fair amount of ground work in the Hapkido school I am training in now , most of the kick defenses we learn from the ground involve interception and/or evasion ( keep in mind I am a lowly little newb in Hapkido just barely getting dry behind the ears ) . I like the concepts presented in the text except I think that utilitizing these concepts would be usefull only with proper conditioning and training .

The video seems to show trapping , interception and evasion ... the things I am learning in Hapkido except I am being taught not to expose my back as much while prone . I could only see one or two examples of rolling out of effective kicking ranges ( either away or towards ) while recieving the kick as the text describes . Do I need to look more carefully ?

Thanks for sharing

BackFistMonkey

[gojuman]

I did not see the video of the kicks on the ground attached to the article. I did see the other videos. If systema means goofy then I guess they were doing what they are suposed to be doing.
Look at the knife defenses. There are 10 separate attacks. If the defender is able to survive half of them in reallity I would be surprised. In the first 4 techniques pictured he leaves the knife completely alone. I know he is going soft for demo purposes, but the likelyhood of these techniques working is very remote.
Some of the gun defenses were less silly, but the grips shown in control of the weapon can best be described as chipmonky.
I am on a crusade. If you dont get out of the way, then control the weapon then dissarm you are asking for trouble.

[Paul Genge]

When dealing with armed opponents it is easy to become fixated on the weapon. Grabbing the weapon in an attempt to control it can add to this fixation and lead to a struggle over it. Often the strongest man wins in this situation, but the person holding the knife will have an advantage from the start.

Control or sensitivity to the position of a weapon can be achieved through the positioning of your body in relation to the opponent and weapon or by going straight to the heart of the problem and dealing with the attacker directly.

As far as working on the ground is concerned it is preferable to not completely roll away from your opponent, because they simply chase you down and finish you off when you tire or run our of space. The idea is to allow the part of the body under threat to escape the attack so that you can maintain contact with the opponent. This in a lot of ways in not disimilar to working against a knife. After all if all you did was keep backing off from the knife you would eventually run out of space and find yourself cornered.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[gojuman]

When dealing with armed opponents it is easy to become fixated on the weapon. Grabbing the weapon in an attempt to control it can add to this fixation and lead to a struggle over it. Often the strongest man wins in this situation, but the person holding the knife will have an advantage from the start.

Control or sensitivity to the position of a weapon can be achieved through the positioning of your body in relation to the opponent and weapon or by going straight to the heart of the problem and dealing with the attacker directly.

As far as working on the ground is concerned it is preferable to not completely roll away from your opponent, because they simply chase you down and finish you off when you tire or run our of space. The idea is to allow the part of the body under threat to escape the attack so that you can maintain contact with the opponent. This in a lot of ways in not disimilar to working against a knife. After all if all you did was keep backing off from the knife you would eventually run out of space and find yourself cornered.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)
I have heard this argument many times and it does not fly.
These videos depict a deflection and then a strike, but the weapon remains in the attackers hand. There are very few strikers that can dissable an opponent with one strike and there are even fewer attackers that can be dissabled with one strike.
You compare the defense of gun with knife and I agree more with the videos showing the gun defense. The weapon in the videos is controlled and then the attacker is dissarmed. This can be done against a knife attack aswell.
Knocking someone down while they still have the knife or twisting them with them holding the knife is just asking for trouble. Might work but is too risky. You would'nt let the gun attacker hold onto the knife, so don't let the knife holder keep his weapon.

[Defender]

I spent a good chunk of time researching defense against an armed opponent, for my money, Krav maga has the straightforward and effective means.

[BackFistMonkey]

As far as working on the ground is concerned it is preferable to not completely roll away from your opponent, because they simply chase you down and finish you off when you tire or run our of space. The idea is to allow the part of the body under threat to escape the attack so that you can maintain contact with the opponent. This in a lot of ways in not disimilar to working against a knife. After all if all you did was keep backing off from the knife you would eventually run out of space and find yourself cornered.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

So your saying instead of evade and/or intercept and then recover to your feet , you should accept the attack and control him down to you where you grapple with them ? I kept seeing the attacker come down on or near the defender then very little follow through to finish or subdue the attacker. I dont think this was a wise thing to do unless you had too like , if you run out of room or when you couldnt make it to your feet ( continuous attacks or bad timing ).And then I think some sort of completion would be good ...

[Paul Genge]

The clips are illustrating work against kicks from the floor. Not grappling or striking on the ground. When working for real or sparring it is better to take things to their logical conclusion.

Paul Genge

[Gyaku]

I think what is missing from some of these posts is that systema is a very creative art. It teaches no specific techniques but rather to react to the situation at hand. Basically I believe it works, I've incorporated this type of training into teaching karate, its really improved my students abilities. What you're seeing in the various videos is the creativeness of systema, note how no techniques were repeated? Thanks for posting the link, very interesting.

[Paul Genge]

Gyaku,

You are right Systema does not teach techniques and that is where most people get confused when they see clips. The cliche we that would not work for real falls away because if the situation changes so does the work.

Paul Genge

[xen]

i liked the links, cheers paul,

but i couldn't view the clips associated with the articles...no icon or am i having a blind day?

the other clips serve to illustrate the priciples of the art nicely.

it was nice to see controlled flowing movements, but it would also be good to see a relaxed and flowing defender working with a more 'realistic' attacker, ie someone who is not so compliant.

I know this would look 'messier', but thats the reality of a fight.

Specifically regarding the kicks/floor aspect; (remember i haven't seen the vid, just going off the article)

would i be right in surmising that the Systema principle here is to draw your opponent in and bring them to the ground, to level the odds and move into finishing them off with ground-fighting skills?

We've been doing similar work at our dojo this year, practicing/learning how trip and control an attacker from the ground as he kicks. Not as easy as it first appears!

[Paul Genge]

I might have to look at my page layout. You are not the first to miss that there is another page to the article. The clip is on the end of that. Check the tool bar when on page two of the article. There is a button for a further page.

Yes by bring the opponent we can equalise the playing field, but we prefer not to grapple in the Judo/MMA sense of the word. One of the reasons for this is that if we tie ourselves into one opponent we run the risk of being a sitting target for the second or third attacker.

By concentrating on allowing the body parts under threat to escape our opponents can often cause themselves to fall because the body part they were trying to draw support from simply was not there. For a better idea of this principle check out my article on working without contact (http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/page2.html).

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[gojuman]

I was now able to see the video for the kick defense from the ground. Solid principles to practice. They are basic aiki techniques utilizing the feet and legs in a similar fashion to standing defense with arms and hands.

[Paul Genge]

There are only so many ways to move effectively with the human body. The funny thing is people want to own them and put them in a box marked with their name on. Systema does not own the principles, but they have some very clever ways of training them.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialarts.org.uk)

[gojuman]

Very true. I apologize for my earlier degrading comment on systema. I should have contained my criticism to the actual technique.
As far as technques go our ryu has established a system of identifiing the Number one technique for a particular attack. After comfort is gained on the number one we branch out to utilze options. The number one can ceese to be an effective technique depending on many variables and circumstances. While the options exist there is a hyerarchy of effectivness depending on these variables.
Even though there are options, the options must follow a criteria. For example. To defend against a weapon if you are empty handed you must first get out of the line of fire. Then control the weapon. Then dissarm. There are several options pertaining to controling the weapon with the number one technique deemed to be superior in most cases. If the number one does not make sense maybe because of the size of the opponent or because of your body position and surroundings or because you are standing too close to an innocent bystander (your spouse for example) you then move on to one of many many options that fullfill the criteria.
I am sorry to digress from the original post, but the Systema videos got me going.

[Paul Genge]

Getting out of the line of attack is our prefered option. However when this is not possible it is possible to move the opponent so that the strike does not make contact. The big difference is that we learn to move instinctually. This is very different from practicing something until it becomes your own instinct.

One of the advantages with this approach is the ability to adapt to any situation without the need for complex decission making. The last thing you have time for, when faced with unfamiliar territory, is time to decide what technique is appropriate.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[gojuman]

Getting out of the line of attack is our prefered option. However when this is not possible it is possible to move the opponent so that the strike does not make contact. The big difference is that we learn to move instinctually. This is very different from practicing something until it becomes your own instinct.

One of the advantages with this approach is the ability to adapt to any situation without the need for complex decission making. The last thing you have time for, when faced with unfamiliar territory, is time to decide what technique is appropriate.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)
Very true indeed. Thinking is not the answer. The ability to have 'no mind' is what we can both agree on.
The point of practicing options is to free oneself of having to think. A paradox to be sure, but an effective tool. It is when you think that you hesitate and get stuck or shot.

[CosmicFish]

The big difference is that we learn to move instinctually. This is very different from practicing something until it becomes your own instinct.
I'm curious to know how you train this. Presumably it's different from the usual method of practising the same drills over and over until they become habit?

[Albert]

eeek. that looks really bad on video, heh. i watched two of them vids and it looks really weak. Im sure it isnt, but they dont seem to know how to make it look just alittle realistic while showing the moves.

[Slindsay]

I have some real doubts about the techniques shown, I just dont believe that in a full speed enviroment someone could move fast enough to avoid/significantly reuce the force of the blows being delivered.

As an example at about 24 seconds in we see the guy move beneath a stomping kick but as I see it the movement isnt that fast and the original attacker just keeps moving through the area where the guy was.

Also the attacker seems to fall way to easily, again giving an example at about 12 seconds in to the video I find the technique being demonstarted far to coreographed.

My other issue is that a lot of the takedowns dont put you in that great a position, in particular looking at the first technique shown the attacker (If it was me attacking anyway) would at least have ended up on top in the grapple, quite possibly they would land with all their weight on top of you as well.

Im aware that you say this has more to do with principle than technique but I dont like the techniques that are derived from the principles. Id really like to see the techniques applied in a sparring style environment to get some idea of how they would look in real life though because I could be wrong.

[Paul Genge]

S Lindsey,

You are in the North of England. Take a trip to Manchester One Sunday evening visiters are always welcome.

My biggest problem with the, 'I need to see it in sparring to know it is real brigade' is that sparring is not real fighting. I know this because I have spent the last 9 years as a front line Police Officer. During this time I have had sufficient experience to tell me that the way we train provides the goods when I need it. How many other people posting on Martial Arts Forums can say that?

By using a series of drills and games there is a natural progression that develops the skills needed for the kind of work being learnt. Take for instance knife defence. The first thing to practice is being poked with the tip of the knife. On contact with the blade allow the part of the body being poked move out of the way.

The next step would be to learn to flatten the knife against the body upon contact. Then we could move onto using this movement to effect their form and provide opportunities for takedowns ect. From there we may progress onto drills that allow us to work against stabs or slashes.

It is the way we break down things into drills and not techniques that allows Systema students to progress faster than they would in a technique orientated enviroment, but again it is simple to say this. The proof of the pudding is always in the tasting.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[Sonshu]

S Lindsey,

You are in the North of England. Take a trip to Manchester One Sunday evening visiters are always welcome.

My biggest problem with the, 'I need to see it in sparring to know it is real brigade' is that sparring is not real fighting. I know this because I have spent the last 9 years as a front line Police Officer. During this time I have had sufficient experience to tell me that the way we train provides the goods when I need it. How many other people posting on Martial Arts Forums can say that?

By using a series of drills and games there is a natural progression that develops the skills needed for the kind of work being learnt. Take for instance knife defence. The first thing to practice is being poked with the tip of the knife. On contact with the blade allow the part of the body being poked move out of the way.

The next step would be to learn to flatten the knife against the body upon contact. Then we could move onto using this movement to effect their form and provide opportunities for takedowns ect. From there we may progress onto drills that allow us to work against stabs or slashes.

It is the way we break down things into drills and not techniques that allows Systema students to progress faster than they would in a technique orientated enviroment, but again it is simple to say this. The proof of the pudding is always in the tasting.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

The question in bold I can say I do from experience. Sparring I do not see as all that removed from a real fight. If you can land a punch and weather the storm in sparring then you will perform well in a real fight based upon how realistic your sparring is.

Some of the Systema knife work looks fantastic but I think you need to be very good at it to be able to use it as whilst I do practice some of them I am more in favour of perhaps simpler knife defences that keep the blade as far away from me rather than trapping it against my body.

Just my 2p worth - both are valid but for my I prefer keeping the blade as many inches away from me as possible.

[Sonshu]

Simply put when being kicked on the floor you have to remember 2 things

cover up
&
get up

that is about all there is too it, if there close enough to kick you then grab around the torso area and use them to climb to your feet. Takes seconds to get up and you have the option to use them to sheild you from others.

This worked very well for me - simply put cover up and get up.

[Gyaku]

I think some of Sonshu points are really good. Sometimes I think systema is best suited to the more mature martial artist, that has already got a solid foundation in basics and wants to progress further. Having said that though, it in no way negates the effectiveness of the systema approach.

Paul's comments about using it at the front line are very apt, sometimes we get too hooked on sparring or competition results. There are other equally effective ways of validating techniques/approaches.

[Sonshu]

Saprring should not be discounted for its ability to prepare you to drop someone quickly.

One reason why styles like Systema, Aikido and Ninjitsu are often used be people in the police is they need restraint technqiues.

In reality if they were not going to lose the job they have I think more cops would punch people in the face more, as there not permitted to do this as the norm for restraint they need the less sparring styles that focus on control techniques, however I feel if they were permitted to use more force the Kickboxing, Thai, Boxing style aproaches would be more favoured in a lot of cases.

[xen]

I have some real doubts about the techniques shown, I just dont believe that in a full speed enviroment someone could move fast enough to avoid/significantly reuce the force of the blows being delivered.

As an example at about 24 seconds in we see the guy move beneath a stomping kick but as I see it the movement isnt that fast and the original attacker just keeps moving through the area where the guy was.

Also the attacker seems to fall way to easily, again giving an example at about 12 seconds in to the video I find the technique being demonstarted far to coreographed.

My other issue is that a lot of the takedowns dont put you in that great a position, in particular looking at the first technique shown the attacker (If it was me attacking anyway) would at least have ended up on top in the grapple, quite possibly they would land with all their weight on top of you as well.

Im aware that you say this has more to do with principle than technique but I dont like the techniques that are derived from the principles. Id really like to see the techniques applied in a sparring style environment to get some idea of how they would look in real life though because I could be wrong.

yes, quite simply you are, but it isn't your fault :)

Systema, like krav maga, is a combat system instilled in military proffessionals.

These principles didn't come out of thin air! People with significant combat experience, tasked with the role of preparing close-quarters combat courses for new recruits, pooled wisdom and developed systems of personal protection which worked!

These systems then get taught as martial arts to civillians and we question the training methods? Seems a little arrogant to me.

If you are looking for effective technique demonstrations, you are missing the essence of what these arts are all about.

Instead of looking for a 'technique' which you can remember will always work in situation x under conditions y, look at the video's again and try to discern the defenders 'technique' or his 'knack for defending', then you will see what the videos are intending to present.

The defender shows a relaxed versatility when faced with different angles of attack, he remains calm and controlled and works to bring the situation to a close with a minimum of fuss.

People look at demonstrations like this and wonder if it would be effective in 'real conditions', but they fail to realise that they are seeing 'real conditions'. The conditions are purposefully slow and controlled, 1- so people can observe the principles in action and 2- because these methods performed at speed will injure or kill. But the conditions are still 'real'. You may get where i'm coming from, you may not.

For the record, i don't have any experience whatsoever in this art, i just understood the motivation for, and style of, the videos.

[Paul Genge]

Sonshu,

Believe me Police Officers are allowed to and do hit people, but often there has to be an element of restraint because our opponents are often trying to escape. It is all about using what is reasonable and appropriate to the situation.

Systema is not a style whose focus is on restraint, but it comes out often in my work. If your get a chance to watch Michael or Vladimir work they tend to focus on striking. I think the reason that locks and throws often come out in my work is due to both my proffession and my past martial arts experience.

Funny enough whilst in Russia I met a Major from the GRU (intelligence unit). Until 9 years ago he only learnt the system with a firearm. He now studies under Michael Ryabko and is filling in some of the gaps.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[Slindsay]

S Lindsey,

You are in the North of England. Take a trip to Manchester One Sunday evening visiters are always welcome.

My biggest problem with the, 'I need to see it in sparring to know it is real brigade' is that sparring is not real fighting. I know this because I have spent the last 9 years as a front line Police Officer. During this time I have had sufficient experience to tell me that the way we train provides the goods when I need it. How many other people posting on Martial Arts Forums can say that?

By using a series of drills and games there is a natural progression that develops the skills needed for the kind of work being learnt. Take for instance knife defence. The first thing to practice is being poked with the tip of the knife. On contact with the blade allow the part of the body being poked move out of the way.

The next step would be to learn to flatten the knife against the body upon contact. Then we could move onto using this movement to effect their form and provide opportunities for takedowns ect. From there we may progress onto drills that allow us to work against stabs or slashes.

It is the way we break down things into drills and not techniques that allows Systema students to progress faster than they would in a technique orientated enviroment, but again it is simple to say this. The proof of the pudding is always in the tasting.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)


First off, if I happen to be in Manchester (which I may well be over the summer) I would love to come and see you trainning. From what you say their isnt much to really argue about. If you say the technique will work, you need to feel it to be sure and I say it doesnt really look like it will then we are at a stalemate.

[Paul Genge]

xenmaster,

As far as I am aware Systema is not taught to new recruits. Whilst in Moscow we attended one special forces base and watched a selection test. There they used Combat Sambo, but as some of our guests pointed out though special these troops were only designed to last 20 minutes in battle.

Other troops learn various aspects of Systema. It seems to depend on what their unit is and who they know as to what they learn. In Russia there are several styles that have alot in common technically as we as being taught within Spetsnaz circles. Michael Ryabko is one of those teachers. Whilst in Moscow various members of special forces units attanded to visit Michael. One of those travelled from Siberia to spend only two days with Michael.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[Paul Genge]

I look foward to it.

Paul Genge

[xen]

xenmaster,

As far as I am aware Systema is not taught to new recruits. Whilst in Moscow we attended one special forces base and watched a selection test. There they used Combat Sambo, but as some of our guests pointed out though special these troops were only designed to last 20 minutes in battle.

Other troops learn various aspects of Systema. It seems to depend on what their unit is and who they know as to what they learn. In Russia there are several styles that have alot in common technically as we as being taught within Spetsnaz circles. Michael Ryabko is one of those teachers. Whilst in Moscow various members of special forces units attanded to visit Michael. One of those travelled from Siberia to spend only two days with Michael.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

cheers for the correction, i was just trying to get accross the point that it is a military system which has been proven to be effective...the analogy i gave was how i imagined arts such as this would have come into being, but my real point was that sometimes people are to quick to criticise without first giving their criticism some thought.

[Paul Genge]

I try to make it a rule that I don't make comments on subjects that I now little or nothing about. It is better to ask questions and seak a little experience before making comment.

I understood where you were coming from with your comment about millitary training. The only reason I corrected you was to stop people thinking that we claim that Systema is taught to basic recruits and then using it to fuel their argument.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[Sonshu]

Sonshu,

Believe me Police Officers are allowed to and do hit people, but often there has to be an element of restraint because our opponents are often trying to escape. It is all about using what is reasonable and appropriate to the situation.

Systema is not a style whose focus is on restraint, but it comes out often in my work. If your get a chance to watch Michael or Vladimir work they tend to focus on striking. I think the reason that locks and throws often come out in my work is due to both my proffession and my past martial arts experience.

Funny enough whilst in Russia I met a Major from the GRU (intelligence unit). Until 9 years ago he only learnt the system with a firearm. He now studies under Michael Ryabko and is filling in some of the gaps.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

Yes Police are governed by the same laws as most people, if they were able to without repocussions use fists I think most would as its easier than restraint. Simply the same laws of reasonable as the rest of us.

I can see your movements come from Taijitsu that much is obvioius.

[tekkengod]

did any of you guys look at the video clips on that site? :bang:

funniest thing i've seen in a LONG time.

aren't we having a discussion on aliveness in training right now?

i have never ever EVER seen anyone be so lackidasical or compliant in a drill.

i hope they all get knifed, shot, stabed and beaten with a stick for attending this guys class. :woo:

[Sonshu]

Now now tekken

Its often Taijitsu that makes demos look a bit lethargic. I am not gonna get into this one mate.

Some of Taijitsu is good some of it is poo - For me the jury is out on Systema as I have done some of it but it seems to move away from my strengths so I am gonna bow out on this one, could do with seeing more of it and more of a play with it.

[Paul Genge]

Now now tekken

Its often Taijitsu that makes demos look a bit lethargic. I am not gonna get into this one mate.

Some of Taijitsu is good some of it is poo - For me the jury is out on Systema as I have done some of it but it seems to move away from my strengths so I am gonna bow out on this one, could do with seeing more of it and more of a play with it.

Both very good observations. It is too easy to state that just because ou do a certain system you must be good. Lets be honest there are now many schools teaching MMA that have no pedigree. It is the same with both the Bujinkan and Systema.

Unlike some Sonshu realises that to make an informed opinion it takes a little experience of the subject being discussed.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[Lord Spooky]

did any of you guys look at the video clips on that site? :bang:

funniest thing i've seen in a LONG time.

aren't we having a discussion on aliveness in training right now?

i have never ever EVER seen anyone be so lackidasical or compliant in a drill.:




Lo tekkengod,

So what experience have you got in Systema? What do you understand about it's concepts, methods of training etc.....???? :)

i hope they all get knifed, shot, stabed and beaten with a stick for attending this guys class. :woo:

Funny you should say that because that sort of thing tends to happen to me on a regular basis in my Systema training....well apart from the getting shot bit and we are just stabbed a little bit ;)

[Sonshu]

I do understand Tekkens questions and I have said from what little systema I have done I do think I would find it hard to work but its knife work can be very good just odd - I do use and teach some techniques I know from Systema and I do know for me what worked in my years of doing Ninjitsu.

However I do understand Tekkens views - I guess I am in the middle in both camps but not sitting on the fence.

[Lord Spooky]

I do understand Tekkens questions and I have said from what little systema I have done I do think I would find it hard to work but its knife work can be very good just odd - I do use and teach some techniques I know from Systema and I do know for me what worked in my years of doing Ninjitsu.

However I do understand Tekkens views - I guess I am in the middle in both camps but not sitting on the fence.


I understand his views too but there are better ways of putting them accross :eek:

You've got some experience of "The System" therefore to me you have a valid base to argue from.

I just wanted to know what his experience of Systema was.

oh congrats on getting married :)

[xen]

I try to make it a rule that I don't make comments on subjects that I now little or nothing about. It is better to ask questions and seak a little experience before making comment.

I understood where you were coming from with your comment about millitary training. The only reason I corrected you was to stop people thinking that we claim that Systema is taught to basic recruits and then using it to fuel their argument.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

fair point, but i've just re-read my original post about new-recruits and i didn't explicitly state that Systema was taught to new-recruits, i made a generalisation. My wording didn't clearly put accross what i was trying to say. I was simply hypothesising about how military-based systems of personal protection would become formalised...hence my comments about combat veterans pooling knowledge and discerning what principles underlie the techniques they discovered in the field and attempting to derive a system of knowledge, based upon experience, which can be passed on to the next generation of military proffesionals.

I did also quailfy my post by saying I had no experience of the specific details of Systema itself.

It is irritaing when people share knowledge and offer the benefit of their experience to a wider audience and people respond by picking aspects of a technique or demonstration and claim 'this or that' wouldn't work.

Put any technique, drill or exercise under the microscope and flaws will be found...nothing is perfect. When the 'picking' starts it usually spells the end of a thread and the opportunity for discussing the topic intelligently is lost.

i am, and always have been, a civillian. As such, if I want to further my understanding of true martial conditions, then I listen to those who have been in such situations for real and have seen the theory applied in practice.

If people have doubts about the effectiveness of a video clip, for example, then why not ask for clarification, instead of condeming something as ineffective?

[xen]

i hope they all get knifed, shot, stabed and beaten with a stick for attending this guys class. :woo:

you seem like a real nice person...thanks for the input...i feel sooo enlightened now :rolleyes: :bang:

[Sonshu]

Xenmaster - yours did not help much either mate.

Let it go.

[Sonshu]

I understand his views too but there are better ways of putting them accross :eek:

You've got some experience of "The System" therefore to me you have a valid base to argue from.

I just wanted to know what his experience of Systema was.

oh congrats on getting married :)

True but I am nearly 30 and would have sounded the same if I was Tekkengods age (no disrespect mate).

Hey I wish everyone thought training a bit in the art and looking into it was a valid enough thing to have a view point on.

Cheers with the grats!

[Lord Spooky]

Hey I wish everyone thought training a bit in the art and looking into it was a valid enough thing to have a view point on.


Even a little experience is better than none when commenting.

I can't seem to view the clip anyway :bang: I can take a guess at what it involves though. Sonshu do you remember a discussion we had on Pressure testing?

[xen]

Xenmaster - yours did not help much either mate.

Let it go.

i agree, my bad, i guess i'm just feeling a bit snippy today :Angel:

[xen]

Even a little experience is better than none when commenting.

I can't seem to view the clip anyway :bang: I can take a guess at what it involves though. Sonshu do you remember a discussion we had on Pressure testing?

this came up earlier...menu bar on side of page...bottom link takes you to page 2 of article, same again for page 3...clip icon at bottom of page.

(you get to read the rest of the article too) :D

[Lord Spooky]

this came up earlier...menu bar on side of page...bottom link takes you to page 2 of article, same again for page 3...clip icon at bottom of page.

(you get to read the rest of the article too) :D


Dur me guess my Ninja powers of observation are a bit off today :D

[Lord Spooky]

Yep done that before :)

Last time I did it we started off as in the Clip but with me on the flor and two guys doing the kicking.

Then when told to my partners took it up to full speed full power for about 2mins (felt like two hours though). Didn't feel myself getting hit whilst doing it but after I was sore :eek:

[Paul Genge]

I really,really need to look at my page layout......

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[RobP]

BTW as far a sparring and non-compliance goes, there are clips around of Systema guys sparring with other people - one includes Mr Genge I believe... :p as well as clips showing other types of work.

[xen]

I really,really need to look at my page layout......

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

just move the links to subsequent pages to the bottom of each page instead of on the main menu bar on the side and that will sort it :)

[Paul Genge]

This article (http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/page50.html) has one of the clips that Rob P is talikng about on it.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://russianmartialart.org.uk)

[BackFistMonkey]

This article (http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/page50.html) has one of the clips that Rob P is talikng about on it.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://russianmartialart.org.uk)
ok the proof is in the 17 second video clip .... umm wait ... no it isnt ... there is one attempted knee and a punch .... I think you may have loaded the wrong video .... and I thought Judo guys usualy dont box and strike .... though looking at his attempt at the knee I would say striking/kicking isnt his strong point ...


My opponent had three years of Judo under his belt and had spent a year studying to fight under Vale Tudo rules. Instead of describing a blow by blow account it is probably best to click here and see what happened.



well I am going to play by play your video for you now

A uncomfortable , unsure looking man tries to knee the writer of the article .The Writer throws a punch which lands nice and square . The man backs away and looks even more unsure .

Reminds me of the last time I boxed with a judo guy ... :rolleyes:

edit : upon further examination I see that it was a sloppy front kick ...not a sloppy round house style knee sorry

[RobP]

"ok the proof is in the 17 second video clip "

No, the proof is in first hand experience.

The clip is just a response to people who say "you never spar with other people etc, etc, etc".

[tekkengod]

Xenmaster - yours did not help much either mate.

Let it go.

oh, i'm glad, seeing as how that was my entire purpose for getting up this morning, to get online and enlighten you. :rolleyes:

look people, i never once downed systema, becasue i've never done systema. i was talking about this particular guy, and his lackidasical approach to drills, he needs some aliveness, some resistance in there, thats all i was saying, if you disagree, maybe you should watch those videos on knife and gun defense again. and yes, i do hope they get stabbed and beaten for training in such a hypocritical manner. now are you enlightened and can you people manage to get over it and move on.
oh and Sonshu. thanks for that bit of back up.

[Paul Genge]

My lackidasical approach to drills has kept me safe for 9 years of front line Policing, but I quess that this is not alive enough for you. Sorry......

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[tekkengod]

you've been doing drills with absolutely 0 resistance in any way shape or form, like in that video?
you've done 0 sparring and 0 competing. and somehow that training has directly saved your ass as a cop on the job..... then i'm calling you a liar.

[BackFistMonkey]

"ok the proof is in the 17 second video clip "

No, the proof is in first hand experience.

The clip is just a response to people who say "you never spar with other people etc, etc, etc".

that was sparing ? no follow through no follow up ... no intensity ...and out of 17 seconds it had about 1 second of fight in it . It looked alot like one step sparing from the TKD classes I watch while waiting for HKD . But that was a nice quick left ... he ran himself straight into it !

Attack - counter attack - back to middle ...... attack- counter attack - back to middle .....

which was my point thats not sparring .....Paul I am assuming you know what I mean . With the training you say you have you should be embaressed to have that clip up . Its as bad as a school yard bully beating an elderly teacher down .... "what I am just a kid and he was a full grown adult ... it was fair" to prove he was a tough boy ( no offense to the Judo people out there but Judo is not a striking kicking art so it isnt the best system to test against especialy under the rules listed on the bullshido site and even on Pauls discription of the event ).


Paul Genge started studying martial arts when he was approximately 12 years of age. Having practiced Judo and other popular Martial Arts he started studying Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu during June 1992.


My opponent had three years of Judo under his belt and had spent a year studying to fight under Vale Tudo rules.

I would have asked for someone a little more tutelage and I am just a baby @ M.A.'s ....also having started around the age of 12 . But I think I know what a good display of an Arts ability should encompass... and that usualy reqires the Artist to be under a little pressure ... Kinda like Mr Vladimir Vasiliev who during a seminar worked without a script against multiple armed opponents. Which would impress the hell out of me as it seemed to have impressed you .

I am only this testy becouse of the reason for your video being up , seems to be to prove to the Bullshido crew that Systema is legit ... I see nothing wrong with the Art itself as a matter of fact I like the ideas expressed on your web site . But its very defensive in its tone and seems as if your trying to prove something . Which makes the selffellating videos even more glaringly obvious .

Train Hard and Be Safe

BackFistMonkey

[bloodrunner]

:woo:
I like the webpage good input of info !!!!!!
keep up the good work all i can say is if every 1 did the same type we all be still going on about (my style better than yours)

:o :yeleyes: ;)

[Paul Genge]

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Paul Genge

[Gyaku]

I think Paul's clips are just fine. I have used systema's creative training methods for a while now in my own classes (although I'm not a systema practitioner). I can attest that it's a really good way to train. No, its not full out bone breaking sparring. But it doesn't need to be. Whats being completely ignored is that this was used by soldiers in life or death situations. It works. Its as simple as that.

[sensi]

I find it sad that these days so many people seem to come onto forums such as this to hurl abuse at others or deride their martial art or technique. This is so contrary to the foundations of any martial arts and seems a shame as much development came from cross pollination of ideas originally. (look at Jujutsu, Akido, Kendo, Aikibujutsu and other samurai bushido based arts)

I personally have been practising martial arts for 20 years and have obtained numerous black belts in various disciplines. I personally have found that cross training (the source of MMA/ freestyle etc) has allowed me to evolve into a better and more efficient fighter and person.

I note with great sadness several verbal attacks on Paul Genge here saying that techniques dont work in reality, look sloppy etc. Now i live in NYC so i cant say from personal experience, but someone with the 6th Dan Ninjutsu and Police background he has should be fairly handy. If he has found answers and solutions in Systema then i would respect that, even if such techniques do not work for me. Furthermore he offers for anyone to come and test the viability of his techniques which is how the martial art of feudal Japan and China used to evolve. Also he has taken his art into a foreign environment of MMA and been successful.

I must also mention that i have been to see numerous great martial artists and so often when they move or defend it is hard/ impossible to work out what they are doing and how. Especially when at full speed, this is why slow speed drills are beneficial. (also for an uki's health) I think it is almost arrogant to judge someone from a clip rather than feeling and experiencing their Chi.

I think rather than deride as a teacher and student of martial arts i would recommend congratulating him and personally going along and testing him before i throw comments and words around. Talk is cheap.

[Sonshu]

I find it sad that these days so many people seem to come onto forums such as this to hurl abuse at others or deride their martial art or technique. This is so contrary to the foundations of any martial arts and seems a shame as much development came from cross pollination of ideas originally. (look at Jujutsu, Akido, Kendo, Aikibujutsu and other samurai bushido based arts)

I personally have been practising martial arts for 20 years and have obtained numerous black belts in various disciplines. I personally have found that cross training (the source of MMA/ freestyle etc) has allowed me to evolve into a better and more efficient fighter and person.

I note with great sadness several verbal attacks on Paul Genge here saying that techniques dont work in reality, look sloppy etc. Now i live in NYC so i cant say from personal experience, but someone with the 6th Dan Ninjutsu and Police background he has should be fairly handy. If he has found answers and solutions in Systema then i would respect that, even if such techniques do not work for me. Furthermore he offers for anyone to come and test the viability of his techniques which is how the martial art of feudal Japan and China used to evolve. Also he has taken his art into a foreign environment of MMA and been successful.

I must also mention that i have been to see numerous great martial artists and so often when they move or defend it is hard/ impossible to work out what they are doing and how. Especially when at full speed, this is why slow speed drills are beneficial. (also for an uki's health) I think it is almost arrogant to judge someone from a clip rather than feeling and experiencing their Chi.

I think rather than deride as a teacher and student of martial arts i would recommend congratulating him and personally going along and testing him before i throw comments and words around. Talk is cheap.

Your DOB says you were born in 1978 yet you have been training in MA for 20 years. So from the age of 7 solidly till now - well done why not complete your bio as to your belt levels and expereince.

Also experienceing someones Chi - LOL :D Come on this has just lost all the cred your post actually earnt you!

Lastly speaking from an ex Taijitsu student I can give true account that Taijitsu is a lottery when it comes to belts vs actualy ability and is no yard stick to measure by. Some lousy 8th Dans and some good 1st Dans, the quality control is not too hot in the style.

[gojuman]

Your DOB says you were born in 1978 yet you have been training in MA for 20 years. So from the age of 7 solidly till now - well done why not complete your bio as to your belt levels and expereince.

Also experienceing someones Chi - LOL :D Come on this has just lost all the cred your post actually earnt you!

Lastly speaking from an ex Taijitsu student I can give true account that Taijitsu is a lottery when it comes to belts vs actualy ability and is no yard stick to measure by. Some lousy 8th Dans and some good 1st Dans, the quality control is not too hot in the style.

Yor are out of line. This was a very solid post and your response is the sort of ill mannered, disrespectful, imature attitude that permiates this forum much too often.

[Sonshu]

Originally Posted by Sonshu
Your DOB says you were born in 1978 yet you have been training in MA for 20 years. So from the age of 7 solidly till now - well done why not complete your bio as to your belt levels and expereince.

Also experienceing someones Chi - LOL Come on this has just lost all the cred your post actually earnt you!

Lastly speaking from an ex Taijitsu student I can give true account that Taijitsu is a lottery when it comes to belts vs actualy ability and is no yard stick to measure by. Some lousy 8th Dans and some good 1st Dans, the quality control is not too hot in the style.

----------
Posted by Gojuman:

Yor are out of line. This was a very solid post and your response is the sort of ill mannered, disrespectful, imature attitude that permiates this forum much too often.

----------

Ill mannered I have not been I asked for him to give some info on his 20 years mentioned earlier as it must be a impressive record as he has been training for well over 2/3rds of his life. I asked for the bio to be completeted thats all.

Ok how do you measure Chi? A statment that was used was "Experiencing his Chi or feeling his Chi" how do you do that then? (most of the other points which he made were ok until this one).

The bit about Taijitsu I said because it is true and people still doing Taijitsu have raised this as a point in the style, I did it for a number of years so again its experience talking.

How do you measure Chi then, if your gonna cast stones? Also Out of line and immature I put my view across and can support it.

[BackFistMonkey]

Yor are out of line. This was a very solid post and your response is the sort of ill mannered, disrespectful, imature attitude that permiates this forum much too often.

ummmm I thought PARTS sonshu's earlier posts were a little rough and bordered over the line ... but that last one isnt so bad .... :rolleyes:

Your DOB says you were born in 1978 yet you have been training in MA for 20 years. So from the age of 7 solidly till now - well done why not complete your bio as to your belt levels and expereince.

Also experienceing someones Chi - LOL Come on this has just lost all the cred your post actually earnt you!

Lastly speaking from an ex Taijitsu student I can give true account that Taijitsu is a lottery when it comes to belts vs actualy ability and is no yard stick to measure by. Some lousy 8th Dans and some good 1st Dans, the quality control is not too hot in the style.





25 years old with this statement I personally have been practising martial arts for 20 years and have obtained numerous black belts in various disciplines.

sorry that comment needs to be questioned ...

and as for the sharp biting comment on chi that sonshu made ... some people dont like Chi and dont believe in it .... ... some people dont like or believe in Quantom Physics ... does that mean it doesnt exist ? Becouse frankly the more I learn about the worlds of the really really small the more I am starting to see the two things as the same force .

But back on topic ...

I still say Systema has it merits ... but that 17 second clip with one second of sparring does not constitute proof that a system works or that Paul trains with "aliveness ". The clip just shows a pretty solid left punch thrown from the outside straight into judo mans face .

also note I never said Systema wasnt legic or usefull or what ever ....I just think you may need better examples if you want to prove something ... personaly I dont see why you should have to prove anything ... ;)

[gojuman]

Chi is meaningful to many people. I understand when someone says that they can feel someones "chi line" . It is a reference to their strength, balance and focus of their center. I don't think his comments were inferring that he has any magical chi sensability.
What his post was all about was his distaste for the constant attacks on contributer's art forms on this MAP of ours. You stepped up and proved his point even further.
Have you ever heard the ZEN tea cup story? It is a worthwhile read.
I have no rite to tell you what to post, but I do have the rite to point out that I think your post was uncalled for.

[Sonshu]

Chi is meaningful to many people. I understand when someone says that they can feel someones "chi line" . It is a reference to their strength, balance and focus of their center. I don't think his comments were inferring that he has any magical chi sensability.
What his post was all about was his distaste for the constant attacks on contributer's art forms on this MAP of ours. You stepped up and proved his point even further.
Have you ever heard the ZEN tea cup story? It is a worthwhile read.
I have no rite to tell you what to post, but I do have the rite to point out that I think your post was uncalled for.

Your entitled to your opinion but when using the term Chi why not keep it simple and say you find out how good someone is when you train with them.

I for the record have had a play around with Systema and also Ninjitsu (ex student) so as said it is from experience my view comes from not guess work or based upon the video alone.

Please do keep in mind I have played with a lot of arts to differing levels and dont post about hung'gar, hapkido or anything like that as I have never done it.

I was not out of line just raising points.

[ALPHADEANO]

Your DOB says you were born in 1978 yet you have been training in MA for 20 years. So from the age of 7 solidly till now - well done why not complete your bio as to your belt levels and expereince.

Also experienceing someones Chi - LOL :D Come on this has just lost all the cred your post actually earnt you!

Lastly speaking from an ex Taijitsu student I can give true account that Taijitsu is a lottery when it comes to belts vs actualy ability and is no yard stick to measure by. Some lousy 8th Dans and some good 1st Dans, the quality control is not too hot in the style.

Im glad to see youve made our new member very welcome.
You are a man of modesty and courtosy, hwo can perorm mathematical tasks and use constructive critism.

As far as Im concerned that sytema top me looks very intresting indeed, I perticualry enjoyed the seated defences.

Any way enough already.


Its not my fault I cant spelll I blam the schools!

[Sonshu]

Im glad to see youve made our new member very welcome.
You are a man of modesty and courtosy, hwo can perorm mathematical tasks and use constructive critism.

As far as Im concerned that sytema top me looks very intresting indeed, I perticualry enjoyed the seated defences.

Any way enough already.


Its not my fault I cant spelll I blam the schools!

errrr

I'm happy your happy as your post does not make sence - yes I blame the schools.

The Systmea will be close to your Taijitsu so it will look of interest.

[Gyaku]

Maybe Sonshu did come on a bit strong, maybe he didn't. C'mon boys and girls, let's get this thread back on track - it's loads more interesting that way.

What I find interesting is that Paul beat the guy in stand up, regardless of the guy doing Vale Tudo for a year. Also by the sounds of it the judo guy wasn't too sucessful on the ground.

Now why is this?

I would like to suggest that there is something about how systema trains that allows it to hold up in a mma environment.

Now as has already been pointed out, Systema doesn't train very much in an 'alive' manner, at least not from the clips we've seen - from my experience this is also true in other instructors.

SO - why did it hold up? Why didn't it fold up against a fighter with 4 years (1 yr Vt and 3 yers judo) of 'alive' training?

Possibly, because systema and 'alive' training arrive at the same point but from different routes.

I believe that systema can be effective because of the way it trains:

1. Techniques are taught in such a way that the student uses the moves that suit them - rather than artificial techniques
2. Students are taught to respond creatively - this way they learn to fight in a non-predictive environment
3. Students are taught to relax, this is important in dealing with the stress of a situation and optimising rsponses

I'm convinced that 'Alive' students will look at these 3 points and see it in their training. What is important are the simularities. We're getting too hooked on 'alive' training? We're not seeing other ways of getting the same result?

[RobP]

I think that one issue - shown by the 35 page post on "aliveness" - is definition of terms. Once you give as name to anything people are going to spend most of the time discussing definitions.

As far as alivenes in Systema goes, I can only say that we don't choreograph and there are no set attacks (or defence come to that). We encourage people to be creative and you can't do that in a "non-alive" environment. Levels of speed and resistance vary but as far as I can see they do in everyone else's training too.

[Gyaku]

Nicely put Rob. I think you are right, it boils down to definitions. Maybe people (including me!) are using too specific a definition of 'aliveness'. I can see the logic in extending to Systema the idea of being alive.

[Sonshu]

Aliveness is to me just practical application.

Can you and do you put it upon a competant resisting apponent, do you then also drill it with a degree of regularity.

Thats it.

[Paul Genge]

Here is an article (http://website.lineone.net/~paul_genge/page53.html) on how presure testing fits into Systema. Our approach is different to other styles, but it addresses some of the questions that surround weither our training is alive.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

[Sonshu]

Sorry Paul the article sheds no more light than what common sence and decent trainning shows.

To me the bit about being joint locked and holding it for as long as you can (on all 4 limbs) is a real danger though and asking for injuries that even Vlad could not cure.

[BackFistMonkey]

To me the bit about being joint locked and holding it for as long as you can (on all 4 limbs) is a real danger though and asking for injuries that even Vlad could not cure.

I agree completely on that one . Holding joint locks as long as you can stand is not the same as stretching and conditioning it will cause damage .


The Site is down but I read something about laying on the ground with a large group ( I think the article said 50 people) fighting around you or something . I was just wondering where you find 50 people in wild melee or even a large group . And What does having 5-6 people laying on you while your instructor slaps you around gonna due ? This is all sounds more like conditioning than pressure testing .

I will happily apologize if I miss read the article before it died . I will be checking on it every once in a while .

BackFistMonkey

P.S.
SO - why did it hold up? Why didn't it fold up against a fighter with 4 years (1 yr Vt and 3 yers judo) of 'alive' training?"

Easy Mister Paul Genge has 20 years of martial arts training , has trained with profesional killers , and has spent MANY years in different arts . Which in My opinion only proves that Paul is a good fighter and it says nothing about Systema.

and you act like three years of Judo and a year of sport match training is enough to challenge a Martial Artist with 20 years under his belt ... this I cant see as a valid point .That is like being surprised when an instructor schools a three year novice ... oh wait .. that is what happend .

[Lord Spooky]

The Site is down but I read something about laying on the ground with a large group ( I think the article said 50 people) fighting around you or something . I was just wondering where you find 50 people in wild melee or even a large group .


Seminars ;)


And What does having 5-6 people laying on you while your instructor slaps you around gonna due ? This is all sounds more like conditioning than pressure testing .

I see it as both I've done the drill although I wasn't being slapped at the time :D

I had about five guys one me! Now I'm only 5' 7" and weigh about 11 stone and a couple of the guys had to be about 15 stone, it was a lot of weight, the point was though not to escape or see how your "technique" did under pressure but to remain calm and work on correct breathing and staying relaxed by doing that you can get out but again escape doesn't have to be the goal. So it is pressure testing and conditioning you are being tested in an "uncomfortable" situation and conditioning yourself to remain relaxed :)
You learn to be comfortable being uncomfortable :cool:

Hope that's helpd a bit??

[Paul Genge]

Any technical types out there. The site appears to be using too much bandwidth. What is this and how do I stop it doing it?

Paul Genge

[BackFistMonkey]

Hope that's helpd a bit??
:love: that helps alot actually . I wasnt trying to be an ass I was seriously confused and doubtfull as to WHERE you were going to find 50 people slugging it out in Canada ... and I hadnt thought of large Martial Art seminars... gee who'd have thunk it *blushes* :bang:

Yes being smothered is scary ,good point . I was under the impression it was some sort of technique test .. which I thought was abserd ... I am sure there are ways to remove yourself from the bottom of such a pile but to train for it didnt make sense to me . Knowing they WERENT training for it but learning how to breathe under physical presure and mental pressure(fighting panic etc ) well that makes more sense .

If the article explained that clearly I am sorry for not absorbing it I only read it once before the site went away .

Thank you for your time

Paul ... removing some of or all of the vids may help ,as may trimming some of them down to shorter lengths . Maybe shoot more clips and rotate them out (leaving a smaller number active on the site at one time) .
I think you are just having a large volume of visitors clicking away at your site which there is not you can do about except give them less content to clicky .

be well train hard

BackFistMonkey

[Paul Genge]

The site is back up again. I will see if I can obtain more bandwidth from my provider.

Paul Genge

[Paul Genge]

Damn computer back down again. That is it I will have to put my hand in my pocket and pay for some web hosting.

Paul Genge

[Paul Genge]

Website is no running as follows

Main page (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)

video page (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page43.html)

article page (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page6.html)

defence against kicks from the floor article (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page48.html)

presure testing article (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page55.html)

Systema applied to a MMA environment (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page52.html)


Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk)