Hapkido punching

[wazzabi]

i visited Grand Master Hwang in Shik's dojang & notices that all of the punches they practices were like boxing punches. are all hand strikes in hapkido like that? or does it depend on the school?

[dngrruss]

At my school we teach most of our punches from more of a boxer/kickboxer stance. I also teach the more traditional stances for hand strikes.

The Boxer position is faster while more traditional punches- like the reverse punch- generally have more power. I teach both so that the student has options based on the situation. Improvisation is the key to good fighting. The more tools you have, the better you will be at improvising.

Some schools do not take this view and teach mostly the traditional style of punching, the "one punch- one kill" idea. While the theory is sound, there are certain inherent flaws in that idea. Thus giving the student the option to do both is, imho, is preferred.

My 2 cents...

[austinso]

The Boxer position is faster while more traditional punches- like the reverse punch- generally have more power.

On what do you base your opinion that traditional punches have more "power"?

Austin

[American HKD]

i visited Grand Master Hwang in Shik's dojang & notices that all of the punches they practices were like boxing punches. are all hand strikes in hapkido like that? or does it depend on the school?

Greetings,

Boxing is a modern adaptation and are not classical HKD strikes.

Common HKD strikes are knife hands, center knuckle strike, palm heels, elbows, etc. etc. Forefist strikes are in HKD but rarely used.

HKD strike are designed for very specific vital point attacks. Boxing punches generally doesn't care where they hit you as it was designed as a sport with gloves and hand wraps.

A boxer will often break there hand if they strike a person barehanded, it actually happened to Mike Tyson about 10 years back in a bar brawl.

Martial art striking esspecially the jujutsu type (hapkido) are tested and are safer for bare handed combat and do more damage to a person body then boxing punches.

I disagree with adding boxing punches to HKD it adds nothing, however you must learn to defend against them since they're commonly used.

[dngrruss]

On what do you base your opinion that traditional punches have more "power"?

Austin

More "traditional" MA punches, including HKD, rely on the stronger "root", usually with a less mobile base. This lack of mobility allows for greater power generation since the muscles involved are being used to "push off" the base, allowing for greater power within a shorter torque of the hips, instead of being used for movement and mobility. The weakness of this is that while very powerful, the inherent lack of speed and mobility makes the striker vulnerable to counter if the strike misses.

When the striker is moving more and being a less accessible target, his legs and hips are busy with movement rather than "rooting up" to the ground to strike. While it is true that for any striker, be it HKD, boxer, etc., to generate power, he must create a strong base, the mobile fighter does it for a shorter period of time and with less push because he wants to maintain his mobility. I use as an example breaking. Breaking 10 patio blocks is not a problem for me. I step up to my inanimate target, take all the time I need to prepare, and fire, QED. If I were "fighting" the bricks, and they were mobile as well, my chance of breaking 10 diminishes. I may break only 2 or 3. If I hit it enough times, I will break all 10.

Hope that explains my opinion.

[dngrruss]

Greetings,

Boxing is a modern adaptation and are not classical HKD strikes.

That might be true (though I have some semantic issues with the term "classical HKD), but does that mean adaption is wrong?

Common HKD strikes are knife hands, center knuckle strike, palm heels, elbows, etc. etc. Forefist strikes are in HKD but rarely used.

Why would the fist be "rarely used"? It is extremely effective and the safest thing you can do with your hand is put it into a tight fist.

HKD strike are designed for very specific vital point attacks. Boxing punches generally doesn't care where they hit you as it was designed as a sport with gloves and hand wraps.

I do not agree. A punch can also be trained to go to vital areas and be very effective. While I agree that non-punch hand attacks are more designed for specific targets, it is partly because of the positions of the hand itself. Certain strikes, like the spear-hand, allow the have to be vulnerable if struck to the wrong target or blocked with harder parts of the body. I look at punching like swining a hammer. If I hit you in a vital point with a hammer, it will be very effective. If I hit you in a non-vital point with a hammer, it will also be effective.

A boxer will often break there hand if they strike a person barehanded, it actually happened to Mike Tyson about 10 years back in a bar brawl.

I agree. Most modern boxing and boxers are focused on the sport aspect of the fight system. They do not train with bare hands and do not train to fight for self defense. That does not mean that if a punch is trained properly for defensive purposes, it is not as effective as more specialized strikes. Again, if I can punch through stacks of bricks and boards, someone's ribs, abs, or head will not present as much of a challenge.

Martial art striking esspecially the jujutsu type (hapkido) are tested and are safer for bare handed combat and do more damage to a person body then boxing punches.

"Tested"? Who is conducting a thurough scientific test of different hand strikes and determining that one is safer than another? I would like to see their results. As for my own research (30 years in MA, 20 years as a combat/security professional), I find that your statement is not accurate.

I disagree with adding boxing punches to HKD it adds nothing, however you must learn to defend against them since they're commonly used.

While I respect your opinion, I must wholeheartedly disagree.

[austinso]

Boxing is a modern adaptation and are not classical HKD strikes.

That is an interesting position i.e. that they are not "classical HKD strikes", given your association/affiliation with GM Ji.

Common HKD strikes are knife hands, center knuckle strike, palm heels, elbows, etc. etc. Forefist strikes are in HKD but rarely used.

Strikes are strikes...whether open or closed fist, or any part of the hand for that matter...

HKD strike are designed for very specific vital point attacks. Boxing punches generally doesn't care where they hit you as it was designed as a sport with gloves and hand wraps.

Now you are rationalizing. Bare knuckle fighting pre-1900s was also a "sport", but it does cause damage.

A boxer will often break there hand if they strike a person barehanded, it actually happened to Mike Tyson about 10 years back in a bar brawl.

If they do not know how to "land" a punch properly, yes...I remember a picture of some guy's face (door man?) that Tyson had punched with his bare hand at some dance club. It was a big mess...

Martial art striking esspecially the jujutsu type (hapkido) are tested and are safer for bare handed combat and do more damage to a person body then boxing punches.

Each strike has a purpose...you can't just simply say that one does more damage than another...or that one is safer than another...

I disagree with adding boxing punches to HKD it adds nothing, however you must learn to defend against them since they're commonly used.

I would have to seriously disagree...

Austin

[dngrruss]

And they wonder why I drink... :bang:

[austinso]

More "traditional" MA punches, including HKD, rely on the stronger "root", usually with a less mobile base. This lack of mobility allows for greater power generation since the muscles involved are being used to "push off" the base, allowing for greater power within a shorter torque of the hips, instead of being used for movement and mobility. The weakness of this is that while very powerful, the inherent lack of speed and mobility makes the striker vulnerable to counter if the strike misses.

I guess I don't disagree with that...

When the striker is moving more and being a less accessible target, his legs and hips are busy with movement rather than "rooting up" to the ground to strike. While it is true that for any striker, be it HKD, boxer, etc., to generate power, he must create a strong base, the mobile fighter does it for a shorter period of time and with less push because he wants to maintain his mobility. I use as an example breaking.

Hmmm...so then my question to you is: what is the duration of time that determines what is "rooted" or "not rooted"? There are a lot of boxers who use their hips and legs while they execute their punches, but at what point to you say "ah...he's just jumping around" or "ah...he rooted properly"?

[QUOTE]Breaking 10 patio blocks is not a problem for me. I step up to my inanimate target, take all the time I need to prepare, and fire, QED. If I were "fighting" the bricks, and they were mobile as well, my chance of breaking 10 diminishes. I may break only 2 or 3. If I hit it enough times, I will break all 10.

But I don't see that as an issue of "power"...

Austin

[dngrruss]

Hmmm...so then my question to you is: what is the duration of time that determines what is "rooted" or "not rooted"? There are a lot of boxers who use their hips and legs while they execute their punches, but at what point to you say "ah...he's just jumping around" or "ah...he rooted properly"?



But I don't see that as an issue of "power"...

Austin

You have hit the nail on the head. It is a question of time. I am not saying that a boxer cannot hit hard. I admit that anyone that trains hard and conditins themselves will have greater power generation. But, if you take the same boxer and have him hit a moving target while he himself is moving, he will not be able to hit as hard as he can if the target is stationary and he has limitless time to set up.

Time is a precious commodity in combat. If you have a small amount of time, you have to use it as wisely as possible. For example, you and your opponent engage- his guard is up and he is moving. You see an opening in his guard- are you more likely to:
A- fire a jab to open up the opponent more for combinations
B- Drop to a deep walking (front) stance and fire a reverse punch
C- attempt a spinning back heel kick

I think the smarter choice is A. It is faster and allows quicker recovery, response, and still damages the opponent.

If you were to choose B- I think you are more likely to fail and miss in the attempt. The punch and stance are big and powerful and less mobile. If you miss, your recovery and counter time is shortened because of the time wasted with this giant technique, making you more vulnerable.

If you chose C- Well... you need more trigger-time in the ring. This is a huge technique that requires much more time to execute. You have done nothing to give you the time to fire this, and your opponent is more likely to counter with smaller, faster technique, like shooting.

Am I saying that B or C are not valid fighting techniques? Absolutely not. I think that they are great in the right situation. A reverse punch or a spinning back heel kick are devastating due to their tremendous power. How did they get that power? Time to fire. A jab is not as powerful, but extremely effective and opens up opportunity to do more.

I hope I have made my point a little more clear. I am not saying that any one technique or particular style is better than another. There are just times when one is more appropriate than another.

I tell my students that bigger technique require bigger time. There are 2 ways to get that time- one is to buy it with strikes (wear them down) and the other is if they give it away (no guard, telegraphing, etc.). Since you can't guarantee that they will do the latter, I say take the former.

Geez... I am long winded... :bang:

[American HKD]

While I respect your opinion, I must wholeheartedly disagree.

My opinions are based on 27 yrs in HKD and Jujutsu also learning from the best teachers in the world. My opinion is the various strikes comming from these types of art are over all more effective and give you a much broader array of uses and applications then boxing punches do i.e. the jab,cross, uuper cut, and hook.

I said HKD, JJJ, strikes are intended for vital points, which in most cases does not required a balled up fist. Chops, elbows, finger strikes, claw hands, palm heel (BTW one of the safest way to strike), grabs and tears, thumb strikes, so on and so forth etc.

The forefist came primarly from Okinawa Karate and most HKD, JJJ, dont use them much.

Again I will make clear I never said western boxing won't work I said it doesn't add that much to HKD's many useful and already existing striking skills?

Unfortunately I see many MA throw away really usfull material for the sake of the so call mordern styles. In many cases it's simply because they're uneducated in the stuff that's somehow lasted through the test of time and been around for hundreds of years.

One a different note,

Someone metioned what's classical HKD, it is the original style of Ji Han Jae and what most of his 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation korean students and western student still teach. In comparison to the many "Chop Suey mix in anything" styles of HKD out there today.

If anyone is interested what the founder of HKD perfers to use Doju Ji rarely uses a forefist and perfers Sudo, Palm Heels and other methods of striking.

[austinso]

So does that mean you only do spinning heel with your right leg?

Austin

[nj_howard]

Without getting into the debate about whether Western boxing style punches are more effective than the traditional hand strikes used in Hapkido, I have to agree with American HKD on this point: the boxing-style punch is really not used in traditional Hapkido, whether we're talking about GM Ji's Hapkido or some of the kwans that followed the narrower curriculum that Choi Young Sool taught. I've often wondered why that is, since it seems almost natural to strike with the fist - if you think back to when you were very young, you probably did it without even thinking about it.

I can say that some of the traditional Hapkido hand strikes, like single-knuckle punches to precise targets like the philtrum, the solar plexus or the well of the cheekbone, can be very effective even though they are delivered with comparatively little force compared to one of Tyson's haymakers.

[austinso]

You have hit the nail on the head. It is a question of time. I am not saying that a boxer cannot hit hard. I admit that anyone that trains hard and conditins themselves will have greater power generation. But, if you take the same boxer and have him hit a moving target while he himself is moving, he will not be able to hit as hard as he can if the target is stationary and he has limitless time to set up.

I guess I wasn't talking about "timing" (which I wholeheartedly agree with), but rather the idea of "root" requiring some amount of time to achieve beyond the time a "boxer" uses to execute a punch (which I don't agree).

Austin

P.S. does that mean that "traditional strikes" only work if you ask the guy you are about hit to stay still for a minute while you find your root? :) Doesn't that inherently point to traditional strikes being ineffective in a real situation? I'm digressing...

[MJR]

Firstly, I ask myself when did this forum become so divisive? The members here have an excellent opportunity to discuss and share the knowledge that we have gleaned from training with what are for the most part great teachers all of whom are deserving of our respect and yet there seems to be a recent breaking down of discussions to "Who has the most legitimate hapkido?" this is somewhat tiresome but, more to the point, it tends to rob all concerned of a great opportunity to share in the teachings of many great masters and to gain greater appreciation of hapkido by viewing the art from from different perspectives. A famous martial art practitioner once said something to the effect of "You cannot fully appreciate the martial ways by seizing them by only one corner."

My own teacher is Hwang In-Shik but it would be silly and wrong for me to talk badly on a public forum of Master Ji Han Jae, who I have never met and who was my own teacher's senior, or indicate weaknesses as I may perceive them in the system that he teaches. Nor would I dream of saying that Master Lim Hyun Soo, who was direct student of Choi Yong Sool, my teacher's master, was not representing hapkido properly just because the curriculum he teaches from differs in this way or that from my own teachers. I know of these teachers. I have heard about their practise. But I have never even trained with them or in their current systems How could I possibly hazard any kind of educated opinion on them?

I've trained in hapkido from a couple decades myself. I've trained in Canada, in Korea and I've trained in Daito-ryu in Osaka. But I still don't think I have the definitive take on what hapkido is or isn't. Like the old expression says "I don't know art but I know what I like!" I think we all pretty much know what we like and usually, oddly enough, what we like turns out to what we ourselves do! Funny, that. What we understand best we appreciate most.

I personally would value knowing all I could about how, say, Master Ji teaches a certain technique or Master Lim teaches a certain technique without stopping to say "Hey, my teacher doesn't teach it that way so it must be wrong. It mustn't be real hapkido." These teachers have spent their lives in training. I'm for being quiet and listening to them and a great many others and to their students who wish to talk about their teachings with us.

As for hapkido and punching I was told by more than one senior teacher the following; Originally hapkido had one kind of punch. Neither a reverse hand as we might see in Tang Soo Do/Taekwondo nor a boxing style punch. It was thrown from a natural stance with one's hands starting a position hanging naturally at ones side, ( as it was for self defense and most people don't walk around with their hands up all the time ) one drew the striking hand up in a manner reminiscent of the drawing of a gun from a side holster and then flung the fist forward in a whiplike fashion to the target. I was taught this way as the theoretical basis from which other types of punching were drawn.

I was told that hapkido teachers took the original concept of how to create power from this original technique (throwing one's fist in a loose, whip-like manner with a relaxed shoulder ) and wanted to apply it to more open, active sparring situations where one already knows one is in a fight when the fight starts. Some teachers reacting to the taekwondo they saw around them (and were required to study during their mandatory military service ) adapted the stance and ready position of reverse punch, others seeing boxing and liking its higher guard system adopted this stance. Both approaches however tried to maintain the concept of delivery from the original strike. The idea being; As a hapkido-ist I should be able to deliver with loose, flowing power a strike from any guard position or any position I find my hands in. It matters not what guard I take as long as the concept for generating power remains consistant with hapkido principles.

My own teacher prefers to emphasize punching from a boxers stance as a core position. We do have lots of other strikes including hammer fist, knife hands, spearhands, including more exotic strikes like fishtail backfists to the floating ribs and whipping the second set of knuckles to the lymph nodes on the underside of the jaw ( I've been told that Choi Yong Sool favoured this technique) but we emphasize backfist and a straight right hand first as they are more gross body movements, less finesse techniques, which the student should work toward mastering from the beginning of their training.

[MJR]

Sorry,

I don't like to post without putting my real name on them.

Matthew Rogers
www.spiritforging.com

[mixmastersenior]

In my experience, punches are not used as much in HKD as KI strikes are.
And certainly not to an pobject as heard as the head. Punces to the body can be effective with a much lower risk of injury to the hand. For me, the palm heel strike is very effective. You can produce a great amount of force without risk of injury.

[JimH]

I am in agreement with NJ Howard and American HKD and here are my reasons why:(again my opinion)

Boxing is an exchnage of blows,at set distance that allows the Closed fist to strike its intended target ,or general target area,with force and energy.

In Hapkido the intent is to Create a redirection of the attacking limb by a striking block or parry and to simultaneously move off line to close the gap on the opponent getting to his inside or outside(next to him).

If we close the gap and we are inside of his ability to kick and punch us,we are also in a position to not be able to closed fist boxer punch or kick him or her with any power.

This is why the strikes are close in hand strikes,open hand Ki strikes,palm heel strikes,Middle knuckle stikes,Chopping strikes,Finger attacks to the eyes,throat or sternal notch,elbows and fore arm strikes.
(these hand strikes also do not split the opponent open having him/her bleed on us,especially in todays environment)

In TKD and other linear arts,we hard block and move to position to Boxer punch,which actually causes distance between us and the opponent to be in position to deliver with power and intent,but if we are true to Hapkido we and our techniques or tools are best served/used from close in.

I have believed this point for many years of experimenting and seeing it done for myself,but this past Saturday I was at a mini seminar by GM Hank Shik Shin of World Shinki mudo Won and he said exactly the same thing,Hapkido is a close in art to deny the enemy the ability to strike us with power it is not meant to be a distance art to create an exchange.

This in close fact negates the delivery of a boxing style punch fest as it denies the ability to deliver the boxing closed fist with power.

Again this is my opinion ,with some validation from Gm Hank Shik Shin,but we must all find what we are comfortable with and make the art we study and use OUR art.

What works for others may not work for me,what works for me may not work for others,isn't that why we study an art with thousands of applications to find what fits and works for us as individuals.

[American HKD]

So does that mean you only do spinning heel with your right leg?

Austin

What does that have to do with striking???

It's a simple fact boxing is NOT part of HKD, if some schools do it I really don't care. Just don't call an apple and orange it makes no sense.

[American HKD]

I am in agreement with NJ Howard and American HKD and here are my reasons why:(again my opinion)

Boxing is an exchnage of blows,at set distance that allows the Closed fist to strike its intended target ,or general target area,with force and energy.

In Hapkido the intent is to Create a redirection of the attacking limb by a striking block or parry and to simultaneously move off line to close the gap on the opponent getting to his inside or outside(next to him).

If we close the gap and we are inside of his ability to kick and punch us,we are also in a position to not be able to closed fist boxer punch or kick him or her with any power.

This is why the strikes are close in hand strikes,open hand Ki strikes,palm heel strikes,Middle knuckle stikes,Chopping strikes,Finger attacks to the eyes,throat or sternal notch,elbows and fore arm strikes.
(these hand strikes also do not split the opponent open having him/her bleed on us,especially in todays environment)

In TKD and other linear arts,we hard block and move to position to Boxer punch,which actually causes distance between us and the opponent to be in position to deliver with power and intent,but if we are true to Hapkido we and our techniques or tools are best served/used from close in.

I have believed this point for many years of experimenting and seeing it done for myself,but this past Saturday I was at a mini seminar by GM Hank Shik Shin of World Shinki mudo Won and he said exactly the same thing,Hapkido is a close in art to deny the enemy the ability to strike us with power it is not meant to be a distance art to create an exchange.

This in close fact negates the delivery of a boxing style punch fest as it denies the ability to deliver the boxing closed fist with power.

Again this is my opinion ,with some validation from Gm Hank Shik Shin,but we must all find what we are comfortable with and make the art we study and use OUR art.

What works for others may not work for me,what works for me may not work for others,isn't that why we study an art with thousands of applications to find what fits and works for us as individuals.

well said good points

[austinso]

What does that have to do with striking???

Nothing...don't worry about it...

It's a simple fact boxing is NOT part of HKD, if some schools do it I really don't care. Just don't call an apple and orange it makes no sense.

It seems that what you are saying is that because one form of striking (closed fist) just isn't part of the curriculum as you learned it, then it isn't part of HKD...?

Seems like there are a lot of JungKiKwan people who feel the same way (rightly or wrongly...I really don't care either way) about GM Ji's syllabus of material that goes beyond that of Choi Yong Sool's original curriculum.

Funny that, eh?

Also ironic that on one hand you can argue elsewhere that all of the high kicks in HKD are useful and applicable (which many combat HKD people disagree on), and on the other, you argue that close fists are just not useful and have no application (which really doesn't make much sense).

Doesn't it really boil down to how you use things and whether you can use them effectively?

So my question then is: what makes closed-fist striking *not* HKD?

Austin

P.S. Are JimH and NJ_howard also Sin Moo people?

[dngrruss]

How did we get here?

Austinso- I think we are on the same page, though not seeing eye to eye. I think that boxing stances and strikes produce tremendous power and are extremely efficient by design. What I am saying is that I prefer to throw the more boxing style punch for the faster timing and its power generation . What I am saying is that many of the traditional strikes- the example I use is the reverse punch- can generate as much or more power based on the fact that to throw them properly the base is wider, stronger, and more deeply "rooted". I prefer to use those strikes when more time is available. Until then, give me the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut.

As for the divisiveness being expressed here, it makes me truly sad and a little insulted. I will let both go, of course, but let me say this. I came to HKD 16 years ago from other systems. I have stayed and have never looked back. The reason I have stayed is the open mindedness of most HKD practitioners, instructors, masters, and grandmasters that I have met and trained with. I came into a system that, I tought, was above the "my kung-fu is better than your kung-fu" nonsense that permeates many other styles and schools. I thought that we as HKD students were open to the ideas and opinions of other Hapkidoin and students of other systems. Maybe I have somehow only surrounded myself with Hapkodoin that think openly either by luck or by design, but I am thankful that I have and will continue to do so.

Hapkido's explosion into the main stream of MA is, in my opinion, due to its cross-training "mixed" core. Students are becoming more savvy and want more than just punching/kicking or throwing/locking. The popularity of MMA and NHB may have had something to so with that as well. HKD has been referred to as the "first MMA", though I might give it the distiction of being the "first contemporary MMA". I am a believer in the tenants of Musashi when he states that one must learn the way your enemy fights, so as to understand and defeat him. As a Hapkidoin, I feel that I have an advantage over many other MAists in that regard. I have demonstrated in my school that to defeat a thing, one must understand that thing. As an example, I had a friend who was an Aikido prectitioner. He began touting these great kick defenses that he had learned and that he felt confident that he could stop any kicker. "Who is kicking you?", I asked. He replied that it was his instructor, whom I know to be a weak kicker. I told him that he was free to come to see me after class and try out his defenses. Needless to say, his defenses failed against hard, fast, precise kicks. Did that mean that his techniques were wrong? On the contrary, they were not dramatically different from the ones we teach in our class. He simply did not know how to apply them against real kicks. After our workout, he began to understand and started to take a little kickboxing to enhance his Aikido skills.

Could he have added the kickboxing to his program and still called it Aikido? No, because techniques like that are strictly against the core philosophy and strategy of Aikido. Hapkido is very diffeent. We are not pigeonholed into a position where we cannot bring in things that may not be "traditional", but do work and increase the students skills and abilities as a HKD practitioner. Our philosophy and strategy is built around combat/defense, not religious paradigms like Aikido. We are pragmatic and open.

To say that techniques like punching have not place in HKD is just wrong. It is close minded and smacks of elitism, all of the things that I have come to believe that HKD is not. If one has a disenting opinion, have at it. I welcome it and hope to learn something from it whether I believe it or not.

To say that you don't care what other schools do is a rather telling statement. I, on the other hand, do care. Not only from a strategic mindset, but also from the wellspring of curiosity that I don't ever want to go away. Do not imply that what I have learned, or teach, is not HKD. It may not be the HKD that you have come to know, but noone here has the exclusive right to say what is and what is not HKD, and I hope that noone ever does. Do not impune my hours of blood, sweat, and tears with your small-minded view of how the HKD world should spin. I too have trained with many fabulous and knowledgable masters and GMs. My GM was a 2nd Generation student of GM Ji as well. the impression I have always been left with is that the art should be greater than the sum of its parts, and certainly greater than any one man. We all have things to learn and contribute. I welcome those contributions. It saddens me that it seems that others do not. It is divisiveness that will weaken us. Look at how fragmented our society is now and tell me that it is healthy for our country (USA). How could the same not be true for HKD. Some might say that, "well, if everyone thought like me, there would be unity." Entertaining, but not likely. It is our diversity that makes us strong as Americans and as HKD students.

Damn... there I go rambling again...

I have tried to remain respectful of those who differ in opinion from me, but some of my buttons have been pushed. I still mean no disrespect.

[American HKD]

Nothing...don't worry about it...



It seems that what you are saying is that because one form of striking (closed fist) just isn't part of the curriculum as you learned it, then it isn't part of HKD...?

BOxing isn't part of the system just like it's not part of Shotokan Karate what the problem? I said closed fists is not the perfered method of striking in HKD and we don't use it very much, meaning I did learn closed fist striking.
So far you are mis-quoting everything I said



Seems like there are a lot of JungKiKwan people who feel the same way (rightly or wrongly...I really don't care either way) about GM Ji's syllabus of material that goes beyond that of Choi Yong Sool's original curriculum.

Funny that, eh?

Also ironic that on one hand you can argue elsewhere that all of the high kicks in HKD are useful and applicable (which many combat HKD people disagree on), and on the other, you argue that close fists are just not useful and have no application (which really doesn't make much sense).



1. High kick are part of the system.
2. For the 3rd time I said, boxing punches add little to HKD system and methods of striking and it's style of SD.

Boxing in itself is fairly easy to adapt into ANY MA but that doens't mean you should. True or original HKD isn't a free for all like Combat HKD.



Doesn't it really boil down to how you use things and whether you can use them effectively?

So my question then is: what makes closed-fist striking *not* HKD?


Austin

P.S. Are JimH and NJ_howard also Sin Moo people?


See above

[American HKD]

How did we get here?

Austinso- I think we are on the same page, though not seeing eye to eye. I think that boxing stances and strikes produce tremendous power and are extremely efficient by design. What I am saying is that I prefer to throw the more boxing style punch for the faster timing and its power generation . What I am saying is that many of the traditional strikes- the example I use is the reverse punch- can generate as much or more power based on the fact that to throw them properly the base is wider, stronger, and more deeply "rooted". I prefer to use those strikes when more time is available. Until then, give me the jab, cross, hook, and uppercut.

As for the divisiveness being expressed here, it makes me truly sad and a little insulted. I will let both go, of course, but let me say this. I came to HKD 16 years ago from other systems. I have stayed and have never looked back. The reason I have stayed is the open mindedness of most HKD practitioners, instructors, masters, and grandmasters that I have met and trained with. I came into a system that, I tought, was above the "my kung-fu is better than your kung-fu" nonsense that permeates many other styles and schools. I thought that we as HKD students were open to the ideas and opinions of other Hapkidoin and students of other systems. Maybe I have somehow only surrounded myself with Hapkodoin that think openly either by luck or by design, but I am thankful that I have and will continue to do so.

Hapkido's explosion into the main stream of MA is, in my opinion, due to its cross-training "mixed" core. Students are becoming more savvy and want more than just punching/kicking or throwing/locking. The popularity of MMA and NHB may have had something to so with that as well. HKD has been referred to as the "first MMA", though I might give it the distiction of being the "first contemporary MMA". I am a believer in the tenants of Musashi when he states that one must learn the way your enemy fights, so as to understand and defeat him. As a Hapkidoin, I feel that I have an advantage over many other MAists in that regard. I have demonstrated in my school that to defeat a thing, one must understand that thing. As an example, I had a friend who was an Aikido prectitioner. He began touting these great kick defenses that he had learned and that he felt confident that he could stop any kicker. "Who is kicking you?", I asked. He replied that it was his instructor, whom I know to be a weak kicker. I told him that he was free to come to see me after class and try out his defenses. Needless to say, his defenses failed against hard, fast, precise kicks. Did that mean that his techniques were wrong? On the contrary, they were not dramatically different from the ones we teach in our class. He simply did not know how to apply them against real kicks. After our workout, he began to understand and started to take a little kickboxing to enhance his Aikido skills.

Could he have added the kickboxing to his program and still called it Aikido? No, because techniques like that are strictly against the core philosophy and strategy of Aikido. Hapkido is very diffeent. We are not pigeonholed into a position where we cannot bring in things that may not be "traditional", but do work and increase the students skills and abilities as a HKD practitioner. Our philosophy and strategy is built around combat/defense, not religious paradigms like Aikido. We are pragmatic and open.

To say that techniques like punching have not place in HKD is just wrong. It is close minded and smacks of elitism, all of the things that I have come to believe that HKD is not. If one has a disenting opinion, have at it. I welcome it and hope to learn something from it whether I believe it or not.

To say that you don't care what other schools do is a rather telling statement. I, on the other hand, do care. Not only from a strategic mindset, but also from the wellspring of curiosity that I don't ever want to go away. Do not imply that what I have learned, or teach, is not HKD. It may not be the HKD that you have come to know, but noone here has the exclusive right to say what is and what is not HKD, and I hope that noone ever does. Do not impune my hours of blood, sweat, and tears with your small-minded view of how the HKD world should spin. I too have trained with many fabulous and knowledgable masters and GMs. My GM was a 2nd Generation student of GM Ji as well. the impression I have always been left with is that the art should be greater than the sum of its parts, and certainly greater than any one man. We all have things to learn and contribute. I welcome those contributions. It saddens me that it seems that others do not. It is divisiveness that will weaken us. Look at how fragmented our society is now and tell me that it is healthy for our country (USA). How could the same not be true for HKD. Some might say that, "well, if everyone thought like me, there would be unity." Entertaining, but not likely. It is our diversity that makes us strong as Americans and as HKD students.

Damn... there I go rambling again...

I have tried to remain respectful of those who differ in opinion from me, but some of my buttons have been pushed. I still mean no disrespect.

1. Why is it divisive to keep the original system as intened by it's founders it tact?

2. I see it as a good thing that some people perfer that style and still want to teach it, cause it's a damm good system as is.

3. Just because the MMA craze want's to make all systems into one big pot of gold and many HKD people go along with it, doesn't mean we all have to have the same opinions.

4. Many people comming up today don't really know what HKD is, even
though they say the train in HKD.

5. If other s schools aren't of like mind, why should worry what they do?
Could I stop GM P for making CH, of course not ot are other going to take my advise?

People in Sin Moo all agree to that method, people in CH agree to that method, an so on. Chocolate and Vanilla my friend what can I say?

[HapkidoScott]

I have not studied for as long as most of you but it seems to me that HKD is a great MA that was created by combining different styles and it is fitting that it continues to evolve this way. I hope to train this way for the rest of my life. I should be so lucky that my instructors encourage openness to learn and encourage me to do so. All they ask is that I talk to them first. Hopefully within the next few years I will meet some of you at seminars and I will be able to learn something from you. In the end all HKD practitioners can surely share something with others.

[American HKD]

I have not studied for as long as most of you but it seems to me that HKD is a great MA that was created by combining different styles and it is fitting that it continues to evolve this way. I hope to train this way for the rest of my life. I should be so lucky that my instructors encourage openness to learn and encourage me to do so. All they ask is that I talk to them first. Hopefully within the next few years I will meet some of you at seminars and I will be able to learn something from you. In the end all HKD practitioners can surely share something with others.

Greeting

Scott

your comment "continues to evolve" is very problematic!

Why?

If HKD or any MA system deviates from itself a certain amount it is in fact no longer that system anymore. The name and philosophy may no longer apply as it merges into all other influenes?

HKD is a FIXED SYSTEM.

MMA is a Free for all in the sense that it will absorb from all MA and make it part of there system, Jeet Kune Do is the same thing and so is CH.

But let's look at the reasons why that is. Because the founders intended it to be that way, they have directed thier students on the course of an outward search of techniques from any system.

HKD founders did not have that in mind. They intended thier system to work with-in a set curriculum and expand the uses of the already established framework.

Is one way better or worse it's up to you, but I can assure you HKD is a complete system with enough material to last a lifetime.

You next comment is also important "open minded instr".

There are many things that can be considered open minded.

One way as many see it today is take the good material from all systems mix and share, that is one way to be open minded.

Another way is to take the material from with in HKD and learn to use it against all different types of attacks, which HKD has done from it's birth and roots.

But going one step more learning to use/apply HKD against a ground grappler or a thai boxer or a westrn boxer, etc. That is also open minded without altering the system itself.

Hope that makes sense to you

[wild_pitch]

sorry but this is just silly. all the people at my club and MANY MANY other boxers, and other kinds martial artist out there punch with boxing mechanics, and look no broken hands.. =)

learn to punch properly.. and you will not run into any problems with this type of punch.

to be perfectly frank there is a lot of misinformation about the boxing type of strike throughout this whole thread. people who don't use it as part of their training don't really understand it but feel they can make generalizations about it.

A boxer will often break there hand if they strike a person barehanded, it actually happened to Mike Tyson about 10 years back in a bar brawl.

[HapkidoScott]

Nice to meet you as well American HKD.
I think I understand your opinion and I appreciate it. I only want to comment that as I have not been studying for long I believe that the Hapkido I am learning is from a good source. I study under those who were instructed by GM Kwang Sik Myung whom I actually met at a seminar in April. We learn the traditional forms and techniques but some other techniques are being changed as per GM Myungs changing them. I certainly can not argue with that and I think that it is good to adapt and evolve constantly. On the other hand if it isn't broke then don't fix it right. I do not wish to argue or offend you and I hope we understand each others views. Scott

[American HKD]

Nice to meet you as well American HKD.
I think I understand your opinion and I appreciate it. I only want to comment that as I have not been studying for long I believe that the Hapkido I am learning is from a good source. I study under those who were instructed by GM Kwang Sik Myung whom I actually met at a seminar in April. We learn the traditional forms and techniques but some other techniques are being changed as per GM Myungs changing them. I certainly can not argue with that and I think that it is good to adapt and evolve constantly. On the other hand if it isn't broke then don't fix it right. I do not wish to argue or offend you and I hope we understand each others views. Scott

No offense, the only time I get offended if if people act disrepectfully towards me in a personal attack, not just disagree a point of veiw.

Any way HS Myung does indeed teach authentic HKD, I doubt his classes have boxing punches included. But I could be wrong?

[American HKD]

sorry but this is just silly. all the people at my club and MANY MANY other boxers, and other kinds martial artist out there punch with boxing mechanics, and look no broken hands.. =)

learn to punch properly.. and you will not run into any problems with this type of punch.

to be perfectly frank there is a lot of misinformation about the boxing type of strike throughout this whole thread. people who don't use it as part of their training don't really understand it but feel they can make generalizations about it.

Greetings,

My statement was a generization, I admit I'm no boxing expert, but boxers due train with wraps and gloves and are not use to punching bare handed.

I would generalize again and say I put my money on a Hard Style Karateka's hands they're much better conditioned to deliver a strike to the chin rather than a barehanded boxer.

[wild_pitch]

to be honest our punching is modified from boxing to fit in with hapkido's principals.

using a boxing, *style* of delivery for your striking is not the same as being a boxer. we don't generally use heavy gloves or wraps when punching. this means when using focus pads, punching a heavy bag, or moving around. we will sometimes use a light MMA open handed style of glove when moving around just to take some of the sting off of the blows.

IMHO this helps get rid of the problems associated with using your gloves as a crutch.

as for conditioning hitting a heavy bag, focus pads and people's bodies a few times a week build up more than enough necessary to punch people without hurting yourself.

Greetings,

My statement was a generization, I admit I'm no boxing expert, but boxers due train with wraps and gloves and are not use to punching bare handed.

I would generalize again and say I put my money on a Hard Style Karateka's hands they're much better conditioned to deliver a strike to the chin rather than a barehanded boxer.

[nj_howard]

Seems like there are a lot of JungKiKwan people who feel the same way (rightly or wrongly...I really don't care either way) about GM Ji's syllabus of material that goes beyond that of Choi Yong Sool's original curriculum.
Hi Austin, not really...

I am a Jungkikwan student. Most of us don't really judge other styles. We know that GM Ji added lots of techniques to the curriculum he learned from Choi, and most of us don't have a problem with that. The main thing we say about our curriculum is that it is faithful to what Choi taught GM Lim. And one can say that without judging or criticizing any other style.

Regards, Howard

[nj_howard]

sorry but this is just silly. all the people at my club and MANY MANY other boxers, and other kinds martial artist out there punch with boxing mechanics, and look no broken hands.. =)

learn to punch properly.. and you will not run into any problems with this type of punch.
imo, very true.

I originally trained for a few years in Ji Do Kwan before switching to Hapkido. Of course, we used the western-style boxing punch extensively in Ji Do Kwan, striking with the first two knuckles as in the classic karate punch. We spent a lot of time on heavy bags and makiwara training our form and technique. I sparred full contact and did a fair amount of breaking. I never came close to hurting my hand with a punch. If you keep the two striking knuckles aligned with the wrist and forearm, you minimize the risk of hand and wrist injury.

[Thomas]

People in Sin Moo all agree to that method, people in CH agree to that method, an so on. Chocolate and Vanilla my friend what can I say?


Nicely said... some us even like the chocolate-vanilla swirl. :D

MMA is a Free for all in the sense that it will absorb from all MA and make it part of there system, Jeet Kune Do is the same thing and so is CH.

But let's look at the reasons why that is. Because the founders intended it to be that way, they have directed thier students on the course of an outward search of techniques from any system.


Very well put. In my opinion, asd long as students stay on the path the founder intended, they are learning the "pure" form of their art. There will be changes and digressions within the context of the art and its instructors.

There are many things that can be considered open minded.

One way as many see it today is take the good material from all systems mix and share, that is one way to be open minded.

Another way is to take the material from with in HKD and learn to use it against all different types of attacks, which HKD has done from it's birth and roots.

But going one step more learning to use/apply HKD against a ground grappler or a thai boxer or a westrn boxer, etc. That is also open minded without altering the system itself.

Hope that makes sense to you

Nicely said... and I think some people sometimes get so wrapped up in learning "all of the required techniques" and keepoing up to date on training the way their art was passed to them that they can overlook applying the core concepts and techniques in new ways. Hapkido has all of the elements within itself to meet all situations... but students must learn how to do so, even if it means going outside of the book or conventional methods.

On the topic

In Traditional Hapkido we did lots of different strikes (open handed, extended knuckles, etc) to specific targets of the body. We also did punches, both for the power they offer and for use in learning how to defend against them. I think the other Traditional Hapkdio people have covered this well.

As a Combat Hapkido person, here's my (personal) perspective:

-We have our core system based on Traditional Hapkido but the core system has streamlined a lot of the strikes (and kicks) to make them easy to learn and easy to employ. For this reason, instead of learning a large number of different strikes, we can learn a few and practice them a lot.

- Combat Hapkido has a built-in system of cross training and builds bridges through the concepts of Hapkido to boxing,grappling,Kung Fu, etc. Boxing has a great system of hand striking, is easy to learn the basics, and can be adapted easily to Hapkido footwork and movement. So, it's a natural fit for us.

- A major goal of what we do is to train to be ready to defend ourselves against typical attacks, of which a boxing style punch is one. We follow the philosophy of learning how to use those weapons so that when we practice defending against them we are using realistic attacks. We learn how to punch like a boixer so we can do it correctly for our partners to defend against. (A nice crisp jab thrown from a boxing stance is a lot harder to defend against than a step punch in a front stance)

[HapkidoScott]

American HKD
You are correct we learn to strike with our first 2 knuckles when using a closed fist. Sometimes when we practice locks and throws if they don't work we are told to just do some technique and not just stand there thinking and I believe this is what you and Thomas are saying. Though I am low in rank having grown up in the lower end of the economic status I have been in a few real life situations. This seems to cause me to react pretty well when I miss or foul-up a technique so hopefully this is something that will help me not hinder me.(Sorry I guess I strayed off of the topic a bit there!) My main problem is I tend to switch to a sparring stance with my hands up like a boxer, is this bad?

[dngrruss]

HapkidoScott,
i don't see this as a problem, though it appears that others on this thread may disagree. If something is natural to you and it is effedtive, use it. If the technique you are attempting fails and something else (like a punch) will work in that situation, fire away.

I hope that my words and statements have not been misunderstood. I am all for the opinions and beliefs of others. My ire is only raised when I am disrespected and dismissed as wrong. When one ventures out of the opinion arena and tries to make their opinion a fact, they are left with the task of having to prove it for it to be valid. I have proven time and time again that what I have learned and teach is functional and efficient. It is also HKD. The system DOES evolve and grow to meet the needs of its students and its environment. If it does not, then it will be left in the dust along with the others that refused to adapt.

Forgive my rants... I think I really need to drink more :bang:

[austinso]

1. Why is it divisive to keep the original system as intened by it's founders it tact?
In principle, it is not divisive. But based on the comments you've made, your implication is that despite the continued evolution of HKD even by Ji Han Jae hands, you've basically determined that evolution stopped with Ji Han Jae.

2. I see it as a good thing that some people perfer that style and still want to teach it, cause it's a damm good system as is.
No argument here.

3. Just because the MMA craze want's to make all systems into one big pot of gold and many HKD people go along with it, doesn't mean we all have to have the same opinions.

True. But the point is that you don't think it (more inclusion closed fist striking) adds anything. I think many of us are curious as to why you think that way, rather than hearing about how many years and how many MAs you've taken and making false claims of personal attacks....

4. Many people comming up today don't really know what HKD is, even
though they say the train in HKD.
Okay. Now you've stepped over the line. This thread was started by a brand new student of Master Hwang, and Matthew, not surprisingly given his status in Master Hwang's school, did a great job in explaining the "boxing-like" punching we learn and why (as well as providing historical footnotes).

Do you know who GM Hwang In Shik is? Do you know who accompanied GM Ji to Hong Kong? Are you capable of judging the merits of this man's choice of teaching methods and approach to striking instead of dismissing it out of hand? Can you even make a comment about it?

If you are unwilling to absorb this information, then be careful where you tread. I'm surprised that Matthew hasn't chimed in yet, but believe you me, if you think that the way we have learned HKD is not "HKD", then you seriously need to take your head out of your nether regions...

5. If other s schools aren't of like mind, why should worry what they do?
Could I stop GM P for making CH, of course not ot are other going to take my advise?

People in Sin Moo all agree to that method, people in CH agree to that method, an so on. Chocolate and Vanilla my friend what can I say?

Right. So state that what you do is Sin Moo, GM Ji's personal vision of HKD. But don't start telling every HKD practitioner here that Sin Moo is the only authoritative HKD, instead of being what it really is, another flavour of HKD.

Austin

[American HKD]

In principle, it is not divisive. But based on the comments you've made, your implication is that despite the continued evolution of HKD even by Ji Han Jae hands, you've basically determined that evolution stopped with Ji Han Jae.


No argument here.



True. But the point is that you don't think it (more inclusion closed fist striking) adds anything. I think many of us are curious as to why you think that way, rather than hearing about how many years and how many MAs you've taken and making false claims of personal attacks....

HKD has closed fist striking but it's not boxing that's all.

As far as boxing goes it another type of martial sport, and IMO a HKDoin does'nt need to learn to box to improve the art or the practioners chances of defendind one self.

Okay. Now you've stepped over the line. This thread was started by a brand new student of Master Hwang, and Matthew, not surprisingly given his status in Master Hwang's school, did a great job in explaining the "boxing-like" punching we learn and why (as well as providing historical footnotes).

Do you know who GM Hwang In Shik is? Do you know who accompanied GM Ji to Hong Kong? Are you capable of judging the merits of this man's choice of teaching methods and approach to striking instead of dismissing it out of hand? Can you even make a comment about it?

Ji Han Jae is my teacher not GM Hwang, Doju Ji's technique works for me I have no need to rely on GM Hwang methods good or bad.

If you are unwilling to absorb this information, then be careful where you tread. I'm surprised that Matthew hasn't chimed in yet, but believe you me, if you think that the way we have learned HKD is not "HKD", then you seriously need to take your head out of your nether regions...

Right. So state that what you do is Sin Moo, GM Ji's personal vision of HKD. But don't start telling every HKD practitioner here that Sin Moo is the only authoritative HKD, instead of being what it really is, another flavour of HKD.

You sir are looking for a agruement here and are trying to put words in my mouth with out a doubt and I will not be drawn into your nonsense. I never even implied ANYTHING negiative above Hwang In Sik, why don't you grow up!

Moreover what Hwang In Sik does or others is of no concern of mine. I have a Master and follow his direction and advice and have been served well by it.


Austin

Finally what you blatenly fail to understand is Ji Han Jae is Hapkido, he is beyond another flavor and is in fact the world leading authority and founder of the system, weather you like it or not.

[American HKD]

Nicely said... some us even like the chocolate-vanilla swirl. :D



Very well put. In my opinion, asd long as students stay on the path the founder intended, they are learning the "pure" form of their art. There will be changes and digressions within the context of the art and its instructors.



Nicely said... and I think some people sometimes get so wrapped up in learning "all of the required techniques" and keepoing up to date on training the way their art was passed to them that they can overlook applying the core concepts and techniques in new ways. Hapkido has all of the elements within itself to meet all situations... but students must learn how to do so, even if it means going outside of the book or conventional methods.

On the topic

In Traditional Hapkido we did lots of different strikes (open handed, extended knuckles, etc) to specific targets of the body. We also did punches, both for the power they offer and for use in learning how to defend against them. I think the other Traditional Hapkdio people have covered this well.

As a Combat Hapkido person, here's my (personal) perspective:

-We have our core system based on Traditional Hapkido but the core system has streamlined a lot of the strikes (and kicks) to make them easy to learn and easy to employ. For this reason, instead of learning a large number of different strikes, we can learn a few and practice them a lot.

- Combat Hapkido has a built-in system of cross training and builds bridges through the concepts of Hapkido to boxing,grappling,Kung Fu, etc. Boxing has a great system of hand striking, is easy to learn the basics, and can be adapted easily to Hapkido footwork and movement. So, it's a natural fit for us.

- A major goal of what we do is to train to be ready to defend ourselves against typical attacks, of which a boxing style punch is one. We follow the philosophy of learning how to use those weapons so that when we practice defending against them we are using realistic attacks. We learn how to punch like a boixer so we can do it correctly for our partners to defend against. (A nice crisp jab thrown from a boxing stance is a lot harder to defend against than a step punch in a front stance)

Hi Thomas.

How are you?

I glad there are people like you on MAP, too many people with little sense on board.

[wild_pitch]

Moreover what Hwang In Sik does or others is of no concern of mine. I have a Master and follow his direction and advice and have been served well by it.

ironic that you are willing to say these words to others, yet not live by them yourself.

[dngrruss]

Quote-
You sir are looking for a agruement here and are trying to put words in my mouth with out a doubt and I will not be drawn into your nonsense. I never even implied ANYTHING negiative above Hwang In Sik, why don't you grow up!
-AmericanHKD

Actually, technically, you did. You implied that anyone other than you, your instructors, and those who see the HKD world through your eyes are the only ones doing it right and are the only ones doing HKD. the rest of us are left hanging out here in the world without the HKD label in your opinion. We just must be wrong, or foolish, or intentionally or unintentionally mislead. Thank you for clearing the way for us blind peons to bask in your glow of rightousness.

If that was not your intention, then do not make blanket statements like those in your previous posts. You have to understand that when you make statements that indicate that you and your clan are the only holders of the HKD holy grail, some will react negatively.

If that is what you intended, than get ready to take your lumps. You have no reason to expect those of us who do not share your opinion to just lay down and take it when you not only tell us that you don't agree, but that we are wrong to think the way we do. That is completely disrespectful of both us, our training, and our instructors. So far, I see noone on this thread that has been disrespectful of you or your views. If you are going to take that road, be prepared for the reprocussions.

[dngrruss]

Little sense?

Are you this antagonistic in general, or is it just me?

[American HKD]

Quote-
You sir are looking for a agruement here and are trying to put words in my mouth with out a doubt and I will not be drawn into your nonsense. I never even implied ANYTHING negiative above Hwang In Sik, why don't you grow up!
-AmericanHKD

Actually, technically, you did. You implied that anyone other than you, your instructors, and those who see the HKD world through your eyes are the only ones doing it right and are the only ones doing HKD.

You mis understood that was your take not my intension. I said "many" so called HKD people today don't know what HKD really is!
I never said "All", and I still feel that way sorry.

The rest of us are left hanging out here in the world without the HKD label in your opinion. We just must be wrong, or foolish, or intentionally or unintentionally mislead. Thank you for clearing the way for us blind peons to bask in your glow of rightousness.

Again you're lumping eveyone else as one on the negitive side, I'm not.

If that was not your intention, then do not make blanket statements like those in your previous posts. You have to understand that when you make statements that indicate that you and your clan are the only holders of the HKD holy grail, some will react negatively.

Sin Moo, KHF, WHF, Master Wests group and many others "all" teach authentic HKD. That's 1000s and 1000s of people worldwide. By the same token there are many off shoots not doing justice to the system and don't know what there doing.

If that is what you intended, than get ready to take your lumps. You have no reason to expect those of us who do not share your opinion to just lay down and take it when you not only tell us that you don't agree, but that we are wrong to think the way we do. That is completely disrespectful of both us, our training, and our instructors. So far, I see noone on this thread that has been disrespectful of you or your views. If you are going to take that road, be prepared for the reprocussions.

I never said you're specifcally dis-respectfull, but you keep blowing up everything I say on the negitive side.

I would appriciate if you asked me what I mean before you blow stuff up the wrong way!

[dngrruss]

I think that it is pretty clear what you mean. Your words have spoken for themselves.

We could play this tit-for-tat game all day. I have tried to simply be respectful of the opinions expressed here and tried to answer the question of the original poster. If anyone has taken my words negatively, than I apologize. I have tried to remain open and positive.

It is one thing to stand your ground and stay true to your beliefs. That is admirable. When your words are taken as disrespectful, one would think that if it was not intended, you would do what you can to build the bridge instead of burn it. When you do not recognize the inherent disrespect in your words, and then say that it is our own inept understanding of your statements, or our blowing things out of proportion- especially when the proportions were so clearly laid out- then you alienate yourself from some very talented and sincere people that can do nothing but add to your knowledge.

[American HKD]

Greetings

I little about myself just to share who I am and what I'm about in regards to HKD.

I'm straight foward with my opinions, I'm not trying to be politically correct.

I'll call things as I see it. I've been in HKD over 25 yrs and have seen most everything and all versions, styles, etc. Some good some stink and have no business calling themselves HKD instrs.

MY training is mainly in original HKD from Ji han Jae lineage, however I know about a few modern versions, which are mainly compilations all types of systems.

My frame of reference in judging many forms of HKD is "Lineage" meaning is someone comming from a recongized teacher who came from a recognized teacher back to the founder Ji Han Jae or Youg Sul Choi.

I know many people in HKD who have no such lineage, they learned JJ and TKD and now called it HKD. That's baloney to me.

Guys who never achieve a legit master status who make up their own HKD styles after a few years training is also BS to me. (some may pull it off but usually very rare exceptions).

Although I'm straight foward sounding when writting, I'm a layed back guy don't have any bad feeling to anyone here on MAP.

I may get frustrated with some of you but that's all.

Take it for what it's worth!

[American HKD]

I think that it is pretty clear what you mean. Your words have spoken for themselves.

We could play this tit-for-tat game all day. I have tried to simply be respectful of the opinions expressed here and tried to answer the question of the original poster. If anyone has taken my words negatively, than I apologize. I have tried to remain open and positive.

It is one thing to stand your ground and stay true to your beliefs. That is admirable. When your words are taken as disrespectful, one would think that if it was not intended, you would do what you can to build the bridge instead of burn it. When you do not recognize the inherent disrespect in your words, and then say that it is our own inept understanding of your statements, or our blowing things out of proportion- especially when the proportions were so clearly laid out- then you alienate yourself from some very talented and sincere people that can do nothing but add to your knowledge.

Sorry you just dont understand where I'm comming from based on what you seem to think of me.

Sorry for being straight foward in my veiws, if that sounds disrespectfull I'm sorry for that.

I do have my opinions about HKD regardless of what anyone thinks I paid my dues in training and studying to have one.

[dngrruss]

Okay, a little about me so that you know where I am coming from.

I started my MA career with Ishin Ryu 30 years ago, then moved on to MooDukKwon (TKD), Judo, Kung Fu, fencing, and a bit of boxing. Over 16 years ago, I started HKD and have never looked back. I also dabble in BJJ, Shooto, and sambo- WHICH BLENDS PERFECTLY INTO OUR HKD PROGRAM.

In that time, I have also taken everything I learned out of the dojang and into the real world. I spent 20 years in the combat business; bouncing in very nasty bars, body guarding, doing a little bounty hunting, and working in psych hospitals. I learned to apply what skills I have acheived in practicum, not theory.

My foundation for HKD is not just lineage, but practicality. I can trace my line to Ji Han Jae as well. My primary GM, Yi Jong Hak, is a 2nd generation student of Ji, and was also a military man. He is currently activated and serving in the US Army in Intelligence. His approach to HKD as well as mine were founded in not only the lineage, but the end result. If it works, apply it. If not, don't. Teach the student EVERYTHING you can so that they not only learn what works for them, but how to defend against most assaults.

I respect the efforts and the learning of my predacessors, as well as my contemporaries. I am quite proud of my accomplishments in HKD, and am more proud of my students accomplishments. When someone disrespects them, me, or my instructors- I tend to strike back.

I find those that stand exclusively on lineage as the be-all-end-all of HKD somewhat ironic since Choi's own Daito-Aikijutsu lineage has always been in dispute.

I get frustrated too- especially when my own merits and training come under fire from someone who doesn't know me or my methods.

[dngrruss]

Quote-
I do have my opinions about HKD regardless of what anyone thinks I paid my dues in training and studying to have one.
-AmericanHKD

Me too. Thus my exhuberance (i know its spelled wrong- forgive me)

[wazzabi]

wow, i didn't reallize my simple post would lead to such a hot topic with so many arguements. lol.
quick question to hapkido experts out there:
i've studied kung-fu for 5 years and am wondering if hapkido would compliment kung-fu. i'm very interested in hapkido, but at the same time i don't want to lose what i've learned in kung-fu. i'm wondering if principles from both arts could be applied to each other, whether it would work out.

[dngrruss]

See what you started! :bang: :o

[American HKD]

Okay, a little about me so that you know where I am coming from.

I started my MA career with Ishin Ryu 30 years ago, then moved on to MooDukKwon (TKD), Judo, Kung Fu, fencing, and a bit of boxing. Over 16 years ago, I started HKD and have never looked back. I also dabble in BJJ, Shooto, and sambo- WHICH BLENDS PERFECTLY INTO OUR HKD PROGRAM.

In that time, I have also taken everything I learned out of the dojang and into the real world. I spent 20 years in the combat business; bouncing in very nasty bars, body guarding, doing a little bounty hunting, and working in psych hospitals. I learned to apply what skills I have acheived in practicum, not theory.

My foundation for HKD is not just lineage, but practicality. I can trace my line to Ji Han Jae as well. My primary GM, Yi Jong Hak, is a 2nd generation student of Ji, and was also a military man. He is currently activated and serving in the US Army in Intelligence. His approach to HKD as well as mine were founded in not only the lineage, but the end result. If it works, apply it. If not, don't. Teach the student EVERYTHING you can so that they not only learn what works for them, but how to defend against most assaults.

I respect the efforts and the learning of my predacessors, as well as my contemporaries. I am quite proud of my accomplishments in HKD, and am more proud of my students accomplishments. When someone disrespects them, me, or my instructors- I tend to strike back.

I find those that stand exclusively on lineage as the be-all-end-all of HKD somewhat ironic since Choi's own Daito-Aikijutsu lineage has always been in dispute.

I get frustrated too- especially when my own merits and training come under fire from someone who doesn't know me or my methods.

Very Nice!

We probably have more similarities than differences.

I also have backgrounds, though none at expert levels in Shotokan, Kali, ninjutsu, Dumog, Panatukan (combat filipino boxing if you will) and a little GG.

Over the years for me, I have found HKD to be the most well rounded of all the styles.

I have found many good ideas in all the above MA but was able to use the concepts rather than the techniques to aid my understanding of application of HKD.

Therefore my opinions tend to be critcal of people who jump from art to art mastering nothing but making these new arts with bits and pieces of many things strung together.

Again for me I believe if you stick to a well rounded system like HKD and explore many ways to use it you'll be a good MA and there's ni need to change HKD into CH, or this or that HKD.

The original form if you will has it all.

Thanks for sharing, I like to hear about people more than anything else. I also always pushed for people to have full disclosure on MAP so we can know who's who and what people are all about rather that taking a few sentences and judging a whole person that doesn't work well IMO. :D

[shadow warrior]

GM Ji added "boxing punch defences" soon after he opened his first school near a boxing gym frequented by US service personel. The traditional SD techniques were not as effective against the varied angles and compact nature of these punching attacks.

I have trained in Hapkido for nearly 30 years. In that time I have been exposed to most, if not all roots, flavours and branches of what is now called Hapkido. These manifestations begin near something that looks almost exactly like DAJJ through to TKD with a few joint locks.

I have travelled to Korea, Japan, Hong Kong trained there and seen much of the Hapkido and roots in those places. I have also travelled to LA a dozen times to train with many very well known 2nd generation Hapkido Masters.

Punching with a boxing flavour is NOT traditional Hapkido (GM Choi)!

With that said; BOTH of my main instructors (Chung Kee-Tae and Hwang In-Shik), used this method of hand striking in their primary applications. In addition they taught effective defences against these complex strikes. They ALSO employed, hammer fist, ridge hands (inner and outer), finger jabs, open hand slapping (very effective) and various palm strikes among many others.

As the only student of Master Hwang's to own and operate a branch school directly under him since he came to Canada, I can say that there are as many differences from boxing as similarities in reguards to his punching techniques. The mechanics may appear at first glance to be from that sport, but the training drills, mechanics, rhythms, targets and mindsets are quite different.
The "taste' of energy transfer must be experienced first hand (hopefully, through a good sized telephone book). The roles of; soft in striking hard, slow to faster, weight transfer among many other concepts should be addressed to develop the potential of any striking technique..not just punching!

Dynamic punching skills are not only very effective in application they required in training if you want to develop usefull defences against them. (The same can be said of dynamic kicking).

Master Chung (7th degree direct student of GM Choi), often said that Hapkido was a living breathing martial art, not dead. Tradition is crucial to maintain roots and technique purity (this is true), but if a new threat emerges (western boxing for eg.) a self defence based art must take note and address this if it is to remain as effective. This is a rule in threat assessment.

I believe that there is room for some evolution, but any changes should be consistant with root Hapkido principles. I guess the debates start when people try to determine at what point did Hapkido start being Hapkido?? If it was ONLY the specific techniques GM Choi taught in the late forties, 90% of the second generation Korean masters would not be considered Hapkido Masters at all. This makes many of the raging rants moot. We can only test the skills and decide...work or no work!

Keith Stewart
www.eastwesthapkido.com

[American HKD]

GM Ji added "boxing punch defences" soon after he opened his first school near a boxing gym frequented by US service personel. The traditional SD techniques were not as effective against the varied angles and compact nature of these punching attacks.

I have trained in Hapkido for nearly 30 years. In that time I have been exposed to most, if not all roots, flavours and branches of what is now called Hapkido. These manifestations begin near something that looks almost exactly like DAJJ through to TKD with a few joint locks.

I have travelled to Korea, Japan, Hong Kong trained there and seen much of the Hapkido and roots in those places. I have also travelled to LA a dozen times to train with many very well known 2nd generation Hapkido Masters.

Punching with a boxing flavour is NOT traditional Hapkido (GM Choi)!

With that said; BOTH of my main instructors (Chung Kee-Tae and Hwang In-Shik), used this method of hand striking in their primary applications. In addition they taught effective defences against these complex strikes. They ALSO employed, hammer fist, ridge hands (inner and outer), finger jabs, open hand slapping (very effective) and various palm strikes among many others.

As the only student of Master Hwang's to own and operate a branch school directly under him since he came to Canada, I can say that there are as many differences from boxing as similarities in reguards to his punching techniques. The mechanics may appear at first glance to be from that sport, but the training drills, mechanics, rhythms, targets and mindsets are quite different.
The "taste' of energy transfer must be experienced first hand (hopefully, through a good sized telephone book). The roles of; soft in striking hard, slow to faster, weight transfer among many other concepts should be addressed to develop the potential of any striking technique..not just punching!

Dynamic punching skills are not only very effective in application they required in training if you want to develop usefull defences against them. (The same can be said of dynamic kicking).

Master Chung (7th degree direct student of GM Choi), often said that Hapkido was a living breathing martial art, not dead. Tradition is crucial to maintain roots and technique purity (this is true), but if a new threat emerges (western boxing for eg.) a self defence based art must take note and address this if it is to remain as effective. This is a rule in threat assessment.

I believe that there is room for some evolution, but any changes should be consistant with root Hapkido principles. I guess the debates start when people try to determine at what point did Hapkido start being Hapkido?? If it was ONLY the specific techniques GM Choi taught in the late forties, 90% of the second generation Korean masters would not be considered Hapkido Masters at all. This makes many of the raging rants moot. We can only test the skills and decide...work or no work!

Keith Stewart
www.eastwesthapkido.com

Greetings,

I like the way your putting things and somewhat agree with you but I need more clarification.

By living & breathing you mean what?

1. Adjust HKD to the threat or type attack. (I agree that's my personal preferance )

2. Bring in actual material from other systems i.e. BJJ, Kali, Boxing, Etc.

To the best of my knowledge none of my teachers including Ji Han Jae advocate bring in material from other arts as in #2., but all would agree with #1 cause that's the goal of defending ones self.

[dngrruss]

Well put Shadowwarrior.

Pretty much what I was trying to say, though my long windedness tends to get in the way.

[austinso]

HKD has closed fist striking but it's not boxing that's all.
As far as boxing goes it another type of martial sport, and IMO a HKDoin does'nt need to learn to box to improve the art or the practioners chances of defendind one self.
So there are people here who disagree, and some who agree with that statement. Fine by me.

I was hoping to get a better idea of why people hold these opinions, but obviously this is an exercise in futility...

Ji Han Jae is my teacher not GM Hwang, Doju Ji's technique works for me I have no need to rely on GM Hwang methods good or bad.
Then please refrain from passing judgement unless you fully understand what is being said, rather than jumping into conclusions about what is being taught and how.

And do remember that this was started on how punches are done in Master Hwang's dojang...

You sir are looking for a agruement here and are trying to put words in my mouth with out a doubt and I will not be drawn into your nonsense. I never even implied ANYTHING negiative above Hwang In Sik, why don't you grow up!
No...I am not putting words in your mouth. Paraphrasing, you said:
1. boxing is not needed in HKD...it does not add anything
2. any HKD person who does so is not practicing HKD.

You said this despite knowing that this thread was about what is being taught in Master Hwang's dojang...or perhaps you missed that entirely and just jumped to the wrong conclusion because you saw the word "boxing"...?

Moreover what Hwang In Sik does or others is of no concern of mine. I have a Master and follow his direction and advice and have been served well by it.
That is obviously not true. Otherwise you would not have entered the foray by making sweeping generalizations about what is or is not HKD, and what is legitimate or not. If you do not know Master Hwang's lineage and his reputation in HKD circles, then familiarize yourself before making yourself look like an ass...

I find your attitude quite different from the attitude of other senior Sin Moo HKD people I have corresponded with over the years...in fact, I was told that GM Ji's belief is to make HKD your own. That is one of the primary ideologies behind HKD from its inception. You do know what the "hap" character means, right? Your attitude presented thus far seems to be the very antithesis of that idea.

Finally what you blatenly fail to understand is Ji Han Jae is Hapkido, he is beyond another flavor and is in fact the world leading authority and founder of the system, weather you like it or not.

Now you are putting words in my mouth.

I do not doubt his skill or his massive contribution to the development of HKD. In fact I have the utmost respect and do not like people who dismiss his contributions. But, while he is the founder/Doju of Sin Moo HKD....strictly speaking he is not the founder of HKD. He quite clearly pushed it towards a more comprehensive direction, but the ideology of HKD was there with Choi Yong Sool and Suh Bok Sup.

My apologies for not putting him on the same pedestal as you quite clearly do...mine is already occupied by someone else :).

Austin

[American HKD]

So there are people here who disagree, and some who agree with that statement. Fine by me.

I was hoping to get a better idea of why people hold these opinions, but obviously this is an exercise in futility...


Then please refrain from passing judgement unless you fully understand what is being said, rather than jumping into conclusions about what is being taught and how.

And do remember that this was started on how punches are done in Master Hwang's dojang...


No...I am not putting words in your mouth. Paraphrasing, you said:
1. boxing is not needed in HKD...it does not add anything
2. any HKD person who does so is not practicing HKD.

You said this despite knowing that this thread was about what is being taught in Master Hwang's dojang...or perhaps you missed that entirely and just jumped to the wrong conclusion because you saw the word "boxing"...?


That is obviously not true. Otherwise you would not have entered the foray by making sweeping generalizations about what is or is not HKD, and what is legitimate or not. If you do not know Master Hwang's lineage and his reputation in HKD circles, then familiarize yourself before making yourself look like an ass...

I find your attitude quite different from the attitude of other senior Sin Moo HKD people I have corresponded with over the years...in fact, I was told that GM Ji's belief is to make HKD your own. That is one of the primary ideologies behind HKD from its inception. You do know what the "hap" character means, right? Your attitude presented thus far seems to be the very antithesis of that idea.



Now you are putting words in my mouth.

I do not doubt his skill or his massive contribution to the development of HKD. In fact I have the utmost respect and do not like people who dismiss his contributions. But, while he is the founder/Doju of Sin Moo HKD....strictly speaking he is not the founder of HKD. He quite clearly pushed it towards a more comprehensive direction, but the ideology of HKD was there with Choi Yong Sool and Suh Bok Sup.

My apologies for not putting him on the same pedestal as you quite clearly do...mine is already occupied by someone else :).

Austin


Greetings

Your paraphrasing out of context I futher explained my positions in later posts so let me sum up for you.

1. Anyone including GM Hwang ( No doubt a great HKD Master ) can do whatever he wants to it doesn't make it HKD. he can add boxing, BJJ, Kali, Wing Chun. So what it's been done to death by everyone already and it does'nt make it HKD.

2. IMO unless told to me otherwise the style of HKD was fixed by it's founder.
It has much less limitations than many Kata based systems which leads people to come to thew wrong conclusion. HKD is not what anyones want it to be, it is something specific with very wide boundrys.

3. Ji Han Jae is the founder of HKD you must learn your history, but I won't debate that on this thread.

4. You are mis-understanding the quote "make your own HKD". Very carefully now you must follow this.

a. Doju Ji realizes everyone is different in mind and body, therefore each persons strenght and weaknesses will vary in HKD.

b. Each person will ultimatly be better at certain skills that others so in that sense in do what works for you. I study with Doju Ji at least once a month in an Instr. Class, we go beyond do this or that almost always Doji Ji tells us to do what we want as defenses, combination, etc. But be clear pulling from the HKD curriculum. You can use the material as you feel the need thus, (making your own HKD).

c. Again not to be misunderstood all that takes place (with-in the framework) taught. That's why HKD has many techs to meet the needs of different people and opponents.

Ultimately your HKD will not be the exact copy of my HKD but it's all the same HKD you use your's as you need to and I use mine as I need to.

Don't confuse that explaination as HKD is a free for all, all inclusive of anything because then you would be grossly mistaken as many others are.

That is one reason I said earlier on that many praticioners don't know what HKD is, or how it's intened to be used, etc. etc.

I feel blessed 1000 times over every time I have the oportunity to learn from the source. I've had many occasions to sit one on one with Doju Ji and personally learn his philosohy on HKD and become very clear in learning what HKD is or isn't without the many misconceptions in the HKD community.

[shadow warrior]

Each 2nd generation Hapkido Master I have trained with and met have overlapping skills in the areas of twisitng, throwing, striking and weapons. The diversity of their personal emphasis and preservation of ritual traditions are where things become tricky.

A few of these great people are explosive joint lock practitioners, in all that entails. One or two are legendary with various weapons, edged weapons for example. One or two are casually capable of generating life ending striking power. A few of them are proven "free fighters", (have accumulated extensive experience in environments where who was left standing was far more important than how that came to pass).

I have only trained in Hapkido with well known 2nd Generation Korean Masters. They ALL told me I was learning Hapkido.

I am NOT the product of one single Master's version of the art of Hapkido! Although I may not be capable of duplicating ALL techniques they have taught me at the level they are doing same, I believe I have been exposed to many of the elite theoretical examples of that generation. To me whether a technique came from direct from GM Choi or GM Ji matters little, because by the time it got to me through the second generation each Master had expanded his expertise in their area of choice and were capable of stunning applications!.

IMO. The rarest skill sets among them is the capability of delivering explosive striking power (lethal) in the "open field". This is in ADDITION to the more recognized traditional Hapkido self defense techniques.

Each of my primary instructors represented one of the two recognized roots of Hapkido GM Choi (Master Chung) and GM Ji (Master Hwang. Although he had much training in addition). They both punched dynamically, (among many other strike techniques).

I train my students to breakfall, throw (all yudo throws and sweeps, in addition to takedown, control, arrest and some transition ground work), twist (jointlock, both formal static and open field), dynamic punch and kick, defenses against these as well as breathing excersises for meditation, ki development and stress management. I reserve weapons for black belts, except open field knife defense at brown (4-5 years training).

I have found that the best way to develop self defense skill sets is to practice against people who can dynamically execute offensive attacks in the modes you wish practice. The more skilled the attacking technique, the more useful it is to train with that person.

This also brings up the debate as to whether Hapkido is a defensive or offensive martial art. But that is another debate.

"Living breathing" in essense refers to the application of Hapkido theories and techniques by a practitioner in a dynamic fashion. It does not mean the importation of diversified aspects of numerous flavoured other martial arts.

For this reason GM Ji found he needed to add punch defenses to deal with boxing type attacks. A few Masters took this to the next level and modified some aspects of boxing techniques using essential Hapkido theories to develop offense. But it is by no means classic boxing as it is seen in sport applications. It has a Hapkido flavour and taste to it!

Expert punching and kicking attacks can only be defended against after training with people who are capable of these skills. Before I retired from front line work (1992), I was thankfull that I had been exposed to explosive striking in training, as striking attacks were the most common which I encountered. Many of the more traditional Hapkido defenses against Karate flavoured strikes were ineffective in dealing with boxers.

GM C. S. Kim has said to me a couple of times "If you like the technique I show, take it with you, if you don't like it leave it here". I always took everything he showed me!


Keith Stewart
www.eastwesthapkido.com

[American HKD]

Each 2nd generation Hapkido Master I have trained with and met have overlapping skills in the areas of twisitng, throwing, striking and weapons. The diversity of their personal emphasis and preservation of ritual traditions are where things become tricky.

A few of these great people are explosive joint lock practitioners, in all that entails. One or two are legendary with various weapons, edged weapons for example. One or two are casually capable of generating life ending striking power. A few of them are proven "free fighters", (have accumulated extensive experience in environments where who was left standing was far more important than how that came to pass).

I have only trained in Hapkido with well known 2nd Generation Korean Masters. They ALL told me I was learning Hapkido.

I am NOT the product of one single Master's version of the art of Hapkido! Although I may not be capable of duplicating ALL techniques they have taught me at the level they are doing same, I believe I have been exposed to many of the elite theoretical examples of that generation. To me whether a technique came from direct from GM Choi or GM Ji matters little, because by the time it got to me through the second generation each Master had expanded his expertise in their area of choice and were capable of stunning applications!.

IMO. The rarest skill sets among them is the capability of delivering explosive striking power (lethal) in the "open field". This is in ADDITION to the more recognized traditional Hapkido self defense techniques.

Each of my primary instructors represented one of the two recognized roots of Hapkido GM Choi (Master Chung) and GM Ji (Master Hwang. Although he had much training in addition). They both punched dynamically, (among many other strike techniques).

I train my students to breakfall, throw (all yudo throws and sweeps, in addition to takedown, control, arrest and some transition ground work), twist (jointlock, both formal static and open field), dynamic punch and kick, defenses against these as well as breathing excersises for meditation, ki development and stress management. I reserve weapons for black belts, except open field knife defense at brown (4-5 years training).

I have found that the best way to develop self defense skill sets is to practice against people who can dynamically execute offensive attacks in the modes you wish practice. The more skilled the attacking technique, the more useful it is to train with that person.

This also brings up the debate as to whether Hapkido is a defensive or offensive martial art. But that is another debate.

"Living breathing" in essense refers to the application of Hapkido theories and techniques by a practitioner in a dynamic fashion. It does not mean the importation of diversified aspects of numerous flavoured other martial arts.

For this reason GM Ji found he needed to add punch defenses to deal with boxing type attacks. A few Masters took this to the next level and modified some aspects of boxing techniques using essential Hapkido theories to develop offense. But it is by no means classic boxing as it is seen in sport applications. It has a Hapkido flavour and taste to it!

Expert punching and kicking attacks can only be defended against after training with people who are capable of these skills. Before I retired from front line work (1992), I was thankfull that I had been exposed to explosive striking in training, as striking attacks were the most common which I encountered. Many of the more traditional Hapkido defenses against Karate flavoured strikes were ineffective in dealing with boxers.

GM C. S. Kim has said to me a couple of times "If you like the technique I show, take it with you, if you don't like it leave it here". I always took everything he showed me!


Keith Stewart
www.eastwesthapkido.com


dear keith

thanks, i always enjoy your posts, very insightfull

[Thomas]

Master Stewart,
Great post in its entirety!!!!! It covers so much ground...

About:

I have found that the best way to develop self defense skill sets is to practice against people who can dynamically execute offensive attacks in the modes you wish practice. The more skilled the attacking technique, the more useful it is to train with that person.

I like this part especially and this is the rationale we use for learning how to throw boxing style punches, grappling style shoots, and so on... so we can work our defences realistically.

This also brings up the debate as to whether Hapkido is a defensive or offensive martial art. But that is another debate.

That could be a good thread, I bet it'd generate some good discussion. :D

My view of course comes form the circular philosphy that I hold... and I'd argue that offence and defence actually fall within a circular philosphy and not within a linear mode of thinking... :D

[HapkidoScott]

I just wanted to say that I really enjoy the oppurtunity to read all of you senior belts threads. As I am new to HapKiDo and lack the knowledge you have I feel that by combining all of your opinions to what I learn at class it all just makes sense. I only wish to have the oppurtunity to train with you in the future. Thanks.