Self Defense - Aikido or Kung Fu

[Peaceful_John]

Hello Everyone. I've been fortunate enough to live in a small town that has both an Aikido school and a Kung-fu school. Myself and my little brother want to start a martial art. The main reason is self-defense, however confidence building and physical fitness are also factors. We plan on visiting both schools to get an idea of how good/legitimate the instructors are, and what kind of environment the school would provide.

If one instructor or school is to our disliking, then the choice would be an easy one. However, all things being equal, which would be the better school for self defense? We want to be able to defend ourselves in as many situations as possible (although I plan on trying to avoid those situations at all costs). There is also another factor that is a consideration (although not as important as the self-defense aspect) and that is fun. Myself and my brother plan on practicing as often as we can. Which art will provide the most fun? :)

I would like to stress that this is not a "which is better" question - I understand that the choice of martial arts depend on the person and what one is trying to get out of it. I'm looking for a fun, functional martial art that will be good for me and my brother to learn both self-defense, tone us up a bit, and maybe provide a little fun male bonding to maybe keep us from arguing so much :p My only two choices are Kung Fu and Aikido as those are the only schools near and traveling is not an option. Also the Kung Fu school teaches Tai Chi (either as a seperate class, or along with kung fu, depending on what you're willing to pay)

Any and all input would be great!

- Peaceful John

[Andy Murray]

Hi John,

There are many types of Aikido, and a Gazillion styles of Kung Fu.

Both can be fun, and both can be useful, though it might be argued that there are straighter paths to effective Self Defence.

Good luck, and welcome to the forum.

Andy

[YODA]

Try 'em both and see which YOU like better.

You can always switch at a leter date.

[Cain]

Ask for a free class and choose the one which you enjoy more, or suits you more.

|Cain|

[Spike]

why not just do both?

[Peaceful_John]

I would if I could afford it. I think i'll just sit in for a class or two in both of them and see what tickles my fancy.

And thanks, by the way, for the great advice. As a return favor I'll keep my brother from kicking any shins, which i'm sure will please Yoda. :)

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Peaceful_John
Myself and my little brother want to start a martial art. The main reason is self-defense, however confidence building and physical fitness are also factors.
... However, all things being equal, which would be the better school for self defense? We want to be able to defend ourselves in as many situations as possible.
... Which art will provide the most fun?

There is no answer to these questions. I like vanilla ice cream. My daughter likes strawberry. My father likes chocolate. Are two of us wrong? As someone else said, there are several styles of aikido and thousands of styles of kung fu. That aside, neither martial art necessarily more fun, and neither is necessarily better for self-defense. Only you can answer those types of questions, and you can answer them only for yourself, not for anyone else.

I can give you only one objective answer, and that is that aikido is difficult to learn. Probably only tai chi chuan and the entire Shaolin system are more difficult than aikido. But that should not discourage you. Aikido is tops on my fun list. Not counting sex with my wife and playing with my children, aikido is the most enjoyable thing in my life. And my attitude is that whether I train or not, the year 2013 will come and go. I could spend my time learning aikido, and then know aikido when the year 2013 comes ... or not.

[Spike]

I don`t think Aikido is that difficult to learn. It`s very difficult to master but there are only about a dozen techniques, everything else is cobinations and applications

[med]

i personally offer self defence classes aside from aikido instruction. now id like to iterate that this aint an ad i just thought my literature makes an interesting point. the basic jist is that, i cant teach people the intrecacies of aikido in the short course offered about self defence.. i can teach effective ways of protecting yourself and maximising chances of survival.. and give advice on how to avoid situations in the first place. talk to the instructors at the two clubs. if they dont have ego then they can tell you honestly if they can help in the way you wish.

[Sambo Master]

None of them they are not too good for street defence. if you want do them both then that is much better!

[Peaceful_John]

Well, for and update -

I've watched the Aikido class - I think i'm more a punching kicking person but I must say I was very impressed with the instructor. He seemed very good, he didn't allow alot of horse-play, and he's Affiliated with the American Aikido Association - so I know he's not some guy that invented his own flavor of Aikido and gave himself a blackbelt. And here is the part that really got me to like him - I mentioned that I was planning on looking at other styles, and he mentioned another instructor or two that he thought to be of good quality, and told me where they were located. I was impressed with his honesty, and I respected him more for it.

I also went to the local "Chan Wushu" Gung Fu School. If you haven't heard of the "Chan Wushu" style, it's because this guy is the only "Master" of this style in the world. Here is the story. Appearently a shaolin monk decided he wanted a family, so he left the monestary in Hunan and moved to America. His wife wanted to learn, but it was forbidden to teach the shaolin ways to women or some such thing, so he altered the style so that it wasn't really teaching her the Shaolin styles, but a new style based on the Shaolin ways. He later went on to teach a 9 year old boy, who after many years mastered this new style, and is now teaching were I live. The old monk died, and so did his wife, so now this school has the only Master of this style. I went to watch and I was a bit dissapointed. Here's why:

The Sifu of the class gave me a tour of the facilities - There was the main room of the dojo with a few punching bags and all sorts of weapons leaning against the wall (one of the punching bags was so close that I'm sure at times it must knock down some of the weapons.) there was a small entryway leading to other rooms were everyone's gear was located. There was a bathroom, a waitroom, and another room with wing-chun dummies. The thing that made me the most sceptical about this school was a stand with candles on it that was supposed to help you with you chi. You light the candles, and then punch them out with your chi, supposedly. He demonstrated - he lit one of the candles, and then hit at it with his fingers. This is actually called "air pressure", not "chi". Supposedly, he can put out a candle while it's in a jar, but oddly none of his students have seen him do this. He then took me to the main room and told me that he makes all the certificates himself. I then noticed that about an hour had went by, and he hadn't actually instructed the class to do anything in particular. They were just wondering around and some of them had little manuals trying to do forms. He then showed me a dao weapon form (a broadsword for those who don't know) - which was sloppy at best. When I was a little younger I used to do Goju Karate forms in competitions and did pretty good, this guy was sloppy. Overall a thumbs down.

I have high expectations for my the next school I'm touring - It's a "Kuk Sul Won" school. Don't really know too much about it, but the Instructor has been teaching for 30 years, and recently got a lifetime achievment award from the Mayor of the city I live in. He also has a Degree in Physical Education. I'm hoping he's a bit better.

[LiXinLi]

You should not learn BOTH styles. That is disrespectful to the sifu and to the sensei. It is like saying to them, "hey, your style is great, but I need to learn another to get better." It is saying to the master that their style is not good enough for you. Don't do this. Regarding which style is "better," I have a tendency to lean towards styles that are "soft" and internal. I have very little experience with Aikido or any of the Japanese styles, so I am not someone to judge.

[WhiteWizard]

I disagree learning both styles can only help as there is no such thing as the ultimate style as has been debated here many times before. It isn't disrespectful to your instructor because if they can't realise that there are things that the style is bad for then they can't be that good and instuctor IMO variety is good for people in MA helps them bring together different skills from different areas making them a better MA as a whole

[Saz]

Originally posted by LiXinLi
"hey, your style is great, but I need to learn another to get better."

Thats exactly how it is. Unless you're lucky enough to find a Super-MA that teaches you everything, cross training makes you a better martial artist.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by LiXinLi
You should not learn BOTH styles. That is disrespectful to the sifu and to the sensei. It is like saying to them, "hey, your style is great, but I need to learn another to get better." It is saying to the master that their style is not good enough for you. Don't do this. Regarding which style is "better," I have a tendency to lean towards styles that are "soft" and internal. I have very little experience with Aikido or any of the Japanese styles, so I am not someone to judge.

This is exactly what causes stagnation in the Martial Arts.

The knowledge of a Sifu should have been compiled by Cross Training, and testing his system against others.
Only then should he be spouting forth his wisdom, and be grateful he has learned something worth listening to.

[Andy Murray]

Peaceful John.

"Chan Wushu" Gung Fu sounds like a crock to me, do they have a site or anything?

I smell Chinese Stavit.

[Peaceful_John]

The website for the school is:

http://www.arkansascrystalworks.com/chanwushu.htm

but also look at the parent site:

http://www.arkansascrystalworks.com

I've already chosen another school/style. It's kuk sool won, and i'm very happy with it. As far as styles go, I would have really liked to learn a form of kung fu. I've always been interested in the chinese martial arts. However I would rather take a quality school, as i've said, than a style I really like that doesn't have a very good instructor. I was happy to find out after I joined the kuk sool class that we have animal forms, too. I thought that was a charactersitic of chinese martial arts only, but I guess not.

[-=|§ØÛ£|=-]

This is the brother.
I'm satisfied with the Kuk Sool Won class also. After witnessing the Gung Fu class, we even pondered going back to Goju-Ryu Karate for a second. We like Aikido and all, but after we saw the class, we also noticed how your partner sort of "helps you" throw him around. it just didn't seem right. A good thing we found Kuk Sool Won. The people here are really down to Earth and they aren't jackasses or anything. We hear nothing but good things about our instructor, and it's obvious he knows exactly what he's doing. We also found out that Kuk Sool Won is a few styles (Including Aikido, Hapkido, and certain types of Karate) rolled into one, minus the more useless techiques. I like this because I was attracted to the way Aikido didn't involve being strong or anything, it was all in the techqniue, and this has Aikido. My brother also has the punches and kicks he wants.

[Peaceful_John]

Originally posted by -=|§؛£|=-
This is the brother.
I'm satisfied with the Kuk Sool Won class also. After witnessing the Gung Fu class, we even pondered going back to Goju-Ryu Karate for a second. We like Aikido and all, but after we saw the class, we also noticed how your partner sort of "helps you" throw him around. it just didn't seem right. A good thing we found Kuk Sool Won. The people here are really down to Earth and they aren't jackasses or anything. We hear nothing but good things about our instructor, and it's obvious he knows exactly what he's doing. We also found out that Kuk Sool Won is a few styles (Including Aikido, Hapkido, and certain types of Karate) rolled into one, minus the more useless techiques. I like this because I was attracted to the way Aikido didn't involve being strong or anything, it was all in the techqniue, and this has Aikido. My brother also has the punches and kicks he wants.

It's about time you stoped playing computer games and posted something. This may "have aikido" but you still have to get stronger and more flexible to do all the other techniques. It's not like they're gonna let you pick with techniques you want to learn.:mad:

[hisurfer]

I can't speak for kung-fu, however, I practiced aikido for one year back in 1983/1984. Not enough to know much about the techniques, but enough to get a sense of the philosophy.

I have used what I learned in that one year in plenty of real-life situations. I worked with gang kids in Detroit, and many were quite violent. Learning how to evade, and to use you opponents energy against him rather than use your own power against his, kept me [relatively] safe. Later worked as a bouncer, and as an outreach worker with the homeless mentally ill. In both fields that little bit of aikido training helped *immensely*.

[Tireces]

Well, their view of it from that school is likely a bit skewed, seeing as they have a site about "kung fu healing crystals" and whatnot.

[aikiMac]

We like Aikido and all, but after we saw the class, we also noticed how your partner sort of "helps you" throw him around. it just didn't seem right.
Well, like hisurfer said, aikido can work in "real life."

What you're seeing there in the dojo is the foundation. You start easy, and gradually work up to more and more "real life" throws. The reason for this gradual process is that real falls hurt. I mean, really, in aikido you're hitting people with planets. That's heavy. And if you get hurt on Tuesday, you can't train on Thursday, and that would be bad for everyone. Aikido is not alone in this philosophy. Jigoro Kano, the founder of judo, also softened the way jujitsu was practised so as to preserve students for the next day's class.

Ask some of the aikido black belts to really do a technique on you without holding back. I'll bet the money in my wallet that you'll fall very hard on the mat and/or have a very sore wrist still a week from now.

That said, other styles do move more quickly. It's a matter of taste.

[deCadena]

and if the aikidokas do their technique on you the way it should be done. as the previous post have stated you'll have a sore wrist or even worse a fractured bone.

[WOspidermonkey]

Hey Im in a similar dilemma and want to know is how effective is a striking art without a moderate amount of strength. Speed and strength do affect the effectiveness of a striking art. Striking arts also depend on KO'ing the opponent or maiming them enough to get away. Aikido, aiki-jitsu or jiu-jitsu depend on throws, and jointlocks. These dont require that much strength but technical expertise which tends to go down to an adrenaline rush. If anyone has some info please reply.

[Virtuous]

Hey Im in a similar dilemma and want to know is how effective is a striking art without a moderate amount of strength. Speed and strength do affect the effectiveness of a striking art. Striking arts also depend on KO'ing the opponent or maiming them enough to get away. Aikido, aiki-jitsu or jiu-jitsu depend on throws, and jointlocks. These dont require that much strength but technical expertise which tends to go down to an adrenaline rush. If anyone has some info please reply.

If you practice a technique long enough the movements will come naturally and almost instictual due to 'muscle memory'. This takes a LONG time, alot of people simply dont have the desire to train that long and there is nothing wrong with that. Aikijutsu uses atemi liberally, we are taught some basic striking techniques but they arent applied as they would in a striking art. More or less they are incorporated as parts of the technique, used in conjunction with an outside slip evasion etc etc.

I once had guy come in at me ready to take my head off. I did an out side evasion and gave him a good solid left pop in the kidney/floating rib and then was going to sumi otoshi his butt. However, after I Atemied him he dropped like a sack of potatoes clutching his side, no need to do any thing else. I then promptly left the bar.

Point of he story is, though aiki may not be a striking art in a strict sense, strikes are used and sometimes thats all you need.

[Tomiki Ryu]

I love Aikido but must admit it takes WAY longer than most other styles to become proficient in and I would NOT recommend it as a first style, or if your primary concern is self defense. Perhaps after you have taken another style for awhile and feel the need to 'branch out' you might give it a whirl. I'm not a big Kung-fu fan. While I'm not going to knock Kung-fu, because I've never tried it, I'll just say that any time I have seen a Kung-fu guy go up against a full contact Karate guy in a tournement, the Kung-fu guy got his butt handed to him.

IMO if your primary concern is self defence then go with either full contact karate (Kiokoshinkikan is a great style, I've taken it), some kind of combat ju-jitsu or Judo (a good Judo player will mess you up quickly, I've played with a few).

Thats my two cents anyways.

[pseudo999]

ahhhh... Kuk Sool. I'm testing for black belt in Kuk Sool sometime this summer, so I thought I'd pop in on this thread. Note: I've studied JKD, karate, jiu-jitsu, taiji, other stuff, and am currently studying bagua zhang.

Positive: Contains a well rounded curriculum with upright and ground, striking and locking, and external and internal elements. The people are great overall, due in large part because of an emphasis on etiquette. The grandmaster / founder is still active and makes sure that all schools have quality instruction. Also, because of that, your level of mastery is not limited to the level of the instructor at your school.

Negative: a. Emphasis on etiquette can be superficial (very) and sometimes leads to tight-asses and hypocrites. b. Though containing a well-rounded curriculum, real-world applications were not taught so well in my school. Also, parts of the curriculum (groundwork, for example) are not available except through seminars. c. Even at high levels, some of the internal stuff is clearly not taught. I once witnessed a form performed by a 4th degree black belt who thought the lower your stance during a form, the better. Period. It lacked any sense of internal awareness. d. You have to promise not to study any other martial art to test for black belt. Please note, a lot of the negative stuff I mention occurs in other martial arts and life in general, so it's not as bad as I might make sound.

Overall, I'd give Kuk Sool Won a thumbs up, but please keep your mind open to other arts. I've seen people in Kuk Sool stagnate because they think they have everything.

[buddah_belly]

I do both kung fu and aikido. My instructor does both though.

[NewK]

Probably found this thread too late to reach the original poster, but I too have just seen this same school he is talking about. The chan wushu gung fu. I am of the exact same opinion as the original poster. I do want to thank him for the reference to Kuk Sool Won. Had he not of mentioned that, I would never have known to look for it. That school is not in the phone book. I will be visiting their school tonight so thanks again.