Here's where I draw the Line! Enough of this!

[Labatt]

I love martial arts, I love TKD. But I am being forced to quit. I have been going to my school for over 8 years! 8 damn years of training. I have been his best student, and I have always exceeded everyone else.

Tomorrow is supposed to be my 3rd dan testing. Our montly fee's are at 124 dollars! Testing at 600 dollars! I told him, I am not paying such an obsurd amount of money. He said " You can't test then" He even told me that I would go for free after 3rd dan, now he says NO that I will still have to pay. I stormed out, and it was over. That's it, im done, enough of this bs. I don't know, I have been 2nd dan for 3 yrs, I have 1 testing to go. If he will let me go or not, either way im done, finished. What started out wonderfully, is ending horribly. There is no way in hell im giving in and paying that amount of money.

GREED has taken over most TKD schools, enough is enough, no matter how bad you SUCK! if you got the $$$$ you will get your good for nothing black belt! Im sick of this ****!

[teacher]

I hope you find some other school and enjoy the hell out of your training. It wont hurt your old teacher but it might bring back some of your happiness.
Bad things happen to good people, so do good things.LOL.

[PsiCop]

Yes, this $$$ thing is all too rampant in TKD nowadays. It started out with the fact that yes, if a teacher is having to live off of 30 students tuition, then he will be forced to charge quite a lot. HOWEVER, once he has 300 student training in his studio, he doesnt need to be charging them all over $100 a month. That's not even to mention the testing fees, which are the most pointless of all. My 1st dan test was $300, but even though that's much higher than it should be, i didn't complain becuase i've heard of schools that will charge $1,000! All i can say is try to find another school, but no matter what, you're going to be paying a lot of money. The beurocracy that TKD has gotten itself into is sick. All i can say is, if i ever run a studio, i will not charge that much money even IF i only have 20 or 30 students. if thats the case, ill get a second job, not scuker these poor people out of their money. Whatever happened to the days when it was about true art and style, not money? I agree with you, Labatt, wholeheartedly. All i can say is learn to deal with it and find another school.

[grandmaster mat]

my tkd is only £17 a month, me and my 2 other mates do hours 8 a week, we get like 32 hours for £17 a month, where i am isnt so bad cause my teacher does actually believe in the art and hes not in there just for the money, he use to wake up at 3 am to go to work just so he could train us in the evenings, hes a good teacher

[morphus]

Sorry to hear about your situation Labatt, I totally agree it is all wrong. Rather than me saying any more about how bad martial arts are nowadays because of the money - i would say look for another art, possibly a better art that doesn't charge as much, maybe it's time to expand your knowledge and grow as a martial artist rather than look at it as the end.:)

[Helm]

It seems alot more expensive in the USA. My first dan testing fee was £90 and my 2nd dan cost £95. I totally agree that money and politics play WAY too big a part in modern tkd.

Hope you can find another school man...Would be a shame to let your fitness and "sharpness" from regular training slip..

[Bigfoot]

The prices are a bit steep in the States. My students pay around $20.- a month and many perspective students say the price is high. They have an opportunity to train up to 14 hours a week too. I guess it depends upon what you feel your money should be used for. It is not uncommon here for people to use $70.- or $80.- on one night at one of the local discos or $8.- on a Big Mac menu at McDonalds. But to pay $20.- a month to train MA; Oh that is all too high.

Try to keep things in perspective. Some things cost more than others. If you don't feel it is worth it, you'll have to go somewhere else where you feel you get a better value.

[darlph]

It's amazing about a high price for testing. Have you heard that he wants a new car or anything? Don't let it get you down. Find another school, or style and build your knowledge. i know it's hard to adjust to not wearing a black belt and adjusting, but be above that and go on after your head cools.
Good luck and let us know what's up.

[JediMasterChris]

Don't loose fait in all MA. Mabey you should try another art besides TKD?

[Labatt]

Update:

I thought to myself, after I cooled down that if I didn't test all those other classes, and money would go to waiste. My testing finished 1 hour ago, 6 hour testing. I did my best, and I was the best. Did my patterns excellently, standing ovation. I did my sparring against a person who is 18 (im 15) and who outways me by 80 pounds, I beat him easly. I took out the one opponent, I havn't been able to, this korean 4th dan, 18 yr old. He low blowed my 2wice, and got in a cheap shot on my throat, I knocked him out, after going literally bezerk, yelling, screaming , adn landing a round house, back kick, side kick, and a spinning kick in to his face. I did this cool matrix thingy too, ppl were like "ahhhh!" I did my breaking, and I did 360 back spinning kick....probelm was I kicked too high, the 6'5er could not hold the board any higher! Every single time, I would kick too high, It's very messed up how High I kicked. So i did a regular spinning kick, into a sliding speed palm punch. In the interview I said, I want to be the "Best martial artist" I did not say the best TKD martial artist. And that's that, im 3rd dan now!!!!!! Whooooo Hooooo! I am going to have a long chat with my master, about everything. Right now, im gonna go eat thanks for your words ppl. I luv martial arts.

[darlph]

Congratulations! Sounds like you got your temper calmed down and the blood cool. Sometimes all it takes is a little time to think things out. Good luck:)

[KickChick]

Congrats to you Labatt!

There is all kinds of controversy that involves the ma ... (and not only TKD).
I am sure you will now run into "15 yrs. old and a 3rd dan black belt??" ...
Everything is worth it in the end!!

[morphus]

Congrat's!!!!!!!:)

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by PsiCop
Yes, this $$$ thing is all too rampant in TKD nowadays. It started out with the fact that yes, if a teacher is having to live off of 30 students tuition, then he will be forced to charge quite a lot. HOWEVER, once he has 300 student training in his studio, he doesnt need to be charging them all over $100 a month. That's not even to mention the testing fees, which are the most pointless of all. My 1st dan test was $300, but even though that's much higher than it should be, i didn't complain becuase i've heard of schools that will charge $1,000! All i can say is try to find another school, but no matter what, you're going to be paying a lot of money. The beurocracy that TKD has gotten itself into is sick. All i can say is, if i ever run a studio, i will not charge that much money even IF i only have 20 or 30 students. if thats the case, ill get a second job, not scuker these poor people out of their money. Whatever happened to the days when it was about true art and style, not money? I agree with you, Labatt, wholeheartedly. All i can say is learn to deal with it and find another school.

Unfortunately what you guys say is true.
However I have a long time ma and friend who charges $40.00 a month for blueblelt to black, one of the few old time teaches not in it for the money. Also you won't be promoted unless you know the rank material. I know since he calls me to do all his belt-testings.

[johndoch]

Congratulations Labatt,

Phew!!! Being a stingy Scotsman I would never part with that amount of money for a belt.

[Thomas]

I know where you are coming from on this one. After our Grandmaster retired and turned over all of the schools to his son, we saw a large increase in the "application fees" for testing for dan grades (WTF/Kukkiwon). Eventually, my master joined the Independent Taekwondo Association (through GM Pelligrini's ICHF). We just had our first test through this new setup and the price should be quite a bit cheaper.

Before (under old system), the price for the 1st dan test was $350 (USD) for the Kukkiwon certificate. In my case, I was looking at about $500 for the 3rd dan test. I don't know about the new prices, but I know they'll be lower through the ITA.

I guess the real issue is how much it is worth to you. I am lucky that I have a master whom I would pay a great deal for lessons and the opportunity to test in this system. He keeps the prices low... e.g. testing fees are what his master charges him (no markup). training fees are good, enough to cover the upkeep of the school. Currently, we pay about $25 (non-student/ $15 student) a semester (4 months) to train at the nearby University. For me, this is dirt cheap. The down side is that we only have access to the room two nights weekly, from 6-9 pm.

We hope to set up a permanant school downtown. This means that members; fees will go up, mainly to cover the building costs. I expect it will be about $40-60/ month. With our own building, we will probably have classes Mon-Sat, ranging from 5-9 in the evenings and 10-12 on Saturdays (not confirmed yet). I personally feel that this is a good price for potentially lots of training hours.

Also, at the university, I pay $25/ semester because it is the membership fee for NON-STUDENTS to join the University club. In the past when we had our own school downtown, the standing policy was black belts train for free with the expectation of helping with warm-ups and classes. I imagine we'll follow this idea.

Lastly, congratulations on the 3rd dan test!!!! I was invited over the weekend to prepare for my 3rd dan test in August so I hope to do as well as you!

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Labatt
if I didn't test all those other classes, and money would go to waiste.

I hate to be the one to point this out, but...

Your master was very likely relying on the fact that you (and everyone else) would have that sort of attitude when it came time to test when he set that fee.

It's a very simple principle, the longer you've been at it the more you will be willing to pay to get the certificate.

If he charged that for yellow belt everyone would walk out.

But he could probably get away with $20, by the time you get to Orange a little more, by green even more.

You really need to find out what ALL the fees are when you join a school. It's very easy to ignore it even if you are aware. Because it is so far in the future from your perspective.

He also has a sort of monopoly on it. You most likely can't say "No" and take the test under someone else for a lower price. They likely wouldn't test you without lots of training time, and if they did your current instructor might not recognise it if you tried to continue training there.

Outside of your school rank doesn't really mean much, if anything.

Thats not to say its "wrong", its just something everyone should be aware of before hand...

[YODA]

Thats not to say its "wrong",

Of course it's wrong. It stinks!

[darlph]

And it's the price we pay for being able tp choose the things we want to do.

[YODA]

No - it's the price the gullible are forced to pay for what they have been brainwashed into believing they need.

[MATT_LIQUID]

I pay £3.00 for an hour kickboxing session, 2 times a week. I think that is a rip off as there are no windows and it's starting to feel like a cardio class. Noone where's PJ's. Cacn't wait to say bye bye to kickboxing and hello to Ju Jitsu!

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by YODA
No - it's the price the gullible are forced to pay for what they have been brainwashed into believing they need.


Must agree with you, I've been in ma pushing 40 yrs, I wouldn't pay some of this exuberant fees.
This answer is from a 5th dan instructor teaching over 30 yrs, ME!!

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by YODA
Of course it's wrong. It stinks!

the wrong was in quotation marks for a reason, legally its not wong, morally... well... we all know the what sort of morals many of the traditional "masters" have.

But so long as they tell you upfront it's your own fault for joining a place that does that sort of crap.

[Andy Murray]

But Surely Labatt's TKD is better than average because it costs more?

[Andrew Green]

Can I play too?


Well Duh!

I mean come on a $600 dollar certificate must mean A LOT.



Seriously though, congrats Labatt, but $600 for a test!?!

What would you say if in a couple years you go to University and they pull that, well yes you've paid your tuition and know the material, but we want $600 for the exam?

I can understand testing fees, it takes time and work to run a test, but not that much time and effort. There can be association fees, but if they where anywhere near that they'd have no members.

[Labatt]

Thanks for your congradulations.

But what am I supposed to do? There are no other TKD schools in my area, not many different styles that interest me. Am I just not supposed to pay the man? I know the price is obsurd, absolutely obsurd. 600 bucks for a test is a complete rip off, but what can I do? Have a chat and say "Your prices are too high, im not paying" That could risk alot. Im vying for getting to go free like you said Thomas. Infact, I help teach ALOT of times, and I usually Warm Up classes. If not, then whatever...., I gotta take a stand at some point. If I do get to go for free, it still won't be for testings, just montly payments, however that is something I Can settle with. But I still don't know if I will get to go for free...

[Andrew Green]

How much is 4th dan? Are you going to be willing to pay that in a few years?

I'd bet its more then $600...

You could also not test, just say you feel no need to get any more rank and are happy with what you got.

[ptcruiser]

Unfortunately, that is why so many are leaving TKD and going to other styles. A friend jokingly said Tae Kwon Do has become take you dough. I felt it offensive but true. I also noticed in almost 40 years the teaching has been lowered to sport karate instead of survival.

[johndoch]

Labatt

Do you really need to grade. Cant you improve on the basics and be happy that your learning without the proof of having a new belt.

I think you are being ripped off and I guess your Instructor wont teach you new things unless you pay through the nose for it which is crap.

[Thomas]

Some things to consider, especially if there are no other schools around.

If you pay the money for the test, make sure you get certification that is recognized worldwide (for me, I go with the WTF/Kukkiwon). Yes, you pay more money but when the time comes and you leave for greener pastures, your rank will be recognized where ever you go.

For a young martial artist like you, I think it is very important to get recognized certification. You mentioned that you are a 15 year old 3rd dan. It certainly seems that you are committed to the martial arts. Some day you may decide to open up your own school so that you can teach students the way they should be taught. Without the rank (not just 3rd, but also 4th and up), you'll never be able to do this. Granted you could just set up shop and teach without having the right credentials, but how do you think your students will view that? Where will you get your guidance from?

Yes, it is costly, but it seems that your choices are:
(1) stop testing and possibly stop training in TKD... (and then TKD loses another good young black belt)
(2) pay the money and train as hard as you can (get your money's worth) so that somewhere down the line more opportunities will be open to you (like in colege or another town).
(3) Find another style and start cross-training or begin again in a new style.

From a personal experience, I have paid quite a bit of money for testing, but having world recognized rank certification has served me well in my travels around the world, ensuring that when I go into a new school in another country I can train with peers of the same level and not have to constantly begin again.


To respond to JohnDoch's quote:
"Do you really need to grade. Cant you improve on the basics and be happy that your learning without the proof of having a new belt?"
I hope that he does test because without the rank, this young guy probably will never open up his own school and maybe not even continue on in TKD. Some of you don't practice TKD but those of us who do recognize it as a part of our life (same as you probably feel about your style). To lose any chance of promotion and the responsibilities/new skills/recognition that goes with it could result in a lack of motivation for some people. I imagine that as a 3rd dan, he would like the chance someday to test for master and receieve the responsibilities and opportunities that come with it.

[stump]

15 and a 3rd Dan....

no offence Labatt but it says a lot about a martial art if you're too young to hold a seniors grade and already a third Dan. Fair play though, you must be very talented but the grading system is screwed....but that's another thread altogether

[Thomas]

Originally posted by stump
15 and a 3rd Dan....

no offence Labatt but it says a lot about a martial art if you're too young to hold a seniors grade and already a third Dan. Fair play though, you must be very talented but the grading system is screwed....but that's another thread altogether

In my personal opinion, I don't think it is the grading system. I think that Labatt has proven himself to a master of a world-recognized style by fullfilling all of the requirements that he needs to to hold a 3rd dan. If you only look at a person based on age, what does that say about your ranking philosophy? Older guys should hold a higher rank because they are "older"?

I personally am very impressed. In our school we have a few students under 18 who have the courtesy, discipline, dedication, integrity, spirit , and SKILLS to reach 1st dan. Out of those few who do, very few have the patience and dedication (especially in light of other temptations out there for teens) to stay and test for 2nd dan. To continue on and reach 3rd dan is very special. I have known one other to hold 3rd dan in the US before his 18th birthday, and he is now a US Marine in a very tough job.

In Taekwondo, the requirements for each grade are set as a minimum. The students are expected to learn additional skills from their masters as well. There is also a time requirement, during which dan grades are observed by masters and often are given tasks of teaching and conducting warm-ups. The ONLY difference in TKD between the ages is that under 15 wear the red and black (poom) belt instead of the solid black. When they reach 16, they wear the solid black.

To conclude... I don't think it's a matter of Labatt not being qualified, and it doesn't seem to be a fault of the system. I imagine if you ask Labatt, he has probably been training for at least 6-8 years, based on his rank.

[ptcruiser]

Yes Thomas, which goes to show the ridiculousness of the new style system. No offense to the Kid, but the concept of the basics can't be adhered to with such youth. I've trained blackbelts in their late 20's who didn't have the true concepts of basic truths. A 15 yr old 3rd dan can't teach like a 30 yr old 3rd dan. Go to other style forums or dojo's and see the laughter of "baby blackbelts" only in TKD. Repulsive!!

[stump]

Any 15 years old boy unless genetically enhanced is going to get pummelled no matter how good they are by a normal adult male attacker in a one 2 one. A grade should have something to say about fighting ability - not just about fighting ability under a cushioning set of rules and against people of their own age.

again Labatt no offense intended and well done for your achievement. Somewhere deep down I'll bet you kept your money in your pocket though

[stump]

And thomas in most decent styles someone training for 7-8 years is just about sniffing a First black belt.....

[johndoch]

6-8 years to get 3rd Dan is that all!!!

It seems to be much to easy to get at. Is this a junior grading or something?

[Thomas]

A couple of quick items:

PTCruiser: about repulsive “baby black belts”, I did a search under Kenpo (which your profile states that you hold a 5th dan in) and came up with age 4-7 “Ninja Black Belt: Zebra” rankings. According to www.kenponet.com, there are black belt rankings for ages 4-7, 7-teen, and adults. You don’t list your age, but you hold a very high rank. If I may ask, when did you start practicing Kenpo and how long did it take you to reach 5th dan?

John Doch: according to your profile, you are only 28 years old and have trained in various styles, including kickboxing, kung-fu and Scottish All Styles Martial Arts. Have you earned a black belt in any style yet? If so, how long did it take you?

Stump: Your profile figures you at 27 years old and training in escrima and submission fighting. Take a look at www.escrima-concepts.com/escrima.htm and read about Rene Latosa, a famous escrima guy who was acknowledged as an expert at age 21 and began training as a child. How long have you been training and have you earned a black belt yet?

Being under 18 doesn’t make you incapable of fighting. Look at the child soldiers in Africa, the youth brigades in Israel, the Viet Cong in the Vietnam War. The ones under 18 did pretty well. In the US, you can join the military at age 17 and fight for your country. The training can be very intense for any age soldier.

One difference in Taekwondo is that we do offer training and ranking for people under 15 (and for older students as well). Training sometimes is done within age and size similarities and sometimes all mixed. I personally know some 15-17 year old black belts who could do very well against adult black belts. Age difference is one thing, for example between a 30 year old and a 4 year old, most likely the 30 year old should win, as long as they are both in functioning shape and able to move. However, between a 28 year old and a 17 year old, I would say it definitely comes down to individual abilities and differences. Some people grow faster than others… I hit my full height of 5’9” and a weight of 175 pounds at age 15. I fought older guys (adults) on the street and usually won. I won based on skill and ability, not age.

Please remember also that Taekwondo ultimately is for self defence… some people do study it to compete in the ring in sparring or poomsae, and they usually fight according to weight and age categories (like Muay Thai, Boxing, Karate, Judo, etc. do). They are divided by rank. It is important for kids to be able to defend themselves against similar ages (most common attacks in school) and against adults. I WILL NOT deny them self defence training because they are deemed “too young” by people who have no clue.

By the way, the argument by JohnDoch about seeing other threads in other forums to see what is being said about “baby blackbelts” is pretty funny. First of all, we are discussing Taekwondo… other forums discuss other styles. The people who participate on other forums are probably not going to support Taekwondo in a rationale way because they are not Taekwondo practioners. Besides, just because someone says something doesn’t make it true. However, if we follow this logic, we can look in the “most dangerous martial art” thread and see that many people picked Muay Thai… which, by the way, offers instruction and full contact competition to juniors!

And lastly, about the 6-8 years to 3rd dan… yes, in TKD it is possible. Usually it takes 2-3 years for promotion to 1st dan. This usually involves training at least 10 hours weekly. After 1st dan, there is a mandatory wait of at least 1 year, during which time, you must continue training and help with warm-ups and assist in teaching. After that, there is a 2 year wait from 2nd to 3rd dan minimum. So, yes, if you trained often and hard and made every testing, you could reach 3rd dan in 6 years at the earliest. My guess is that Labatt probably started TKD at age 7 or 8.

By the way, I am seriously interested in learning how long Stump, JohnDoch, and PTCruiser took to attain black belts… and no, I am not trying to put you down… just curious.

[Thomas]

Stump wrote: "Any 15 years old boy unless genetically enhanced is going to get pummelled no matter how good they are by a normal adult male attacker in a one 2 one. A grade should have something to say about fighting ability - not just about fighting ability under a cushioning set of rules and against people of their own age."

I have to say that I don't agree with this assessment. If the idea that a larger attacker will always beat a smaller attacker is taught in your school, I feel bad for the students. I would hate to tell the women's self defence group this news. What do you tell the small guys in the class? "You can't win because you are too small... go eat a Big Mac"? Also, what is a "normal male attacker"... do you have a standard size for one... or standard skill level... or standard speed... and so on.

Your final point of " a grade should have something to say about fighting ability..." is the part that I agree with. You and some of the other posters have essentailly scoffed at this guy's fighting ability based on what? The skill you witnessed? His speed? His power? His size??????? Nope... you guys discounted him based on age. If he has earned a 3rd dan in Taekwondo... the style that I follow and that I know the testing requirements for, then I assume he has pretty good fighting skills. I don't know for sure, but I imagine (by the way, read the post about the sparring part in Labatt's earlier post in this thread).

One last thing to keep in mind is that sometimes it takes people longer to get dan grades because they cross train, take a break for a while, and so on. If you dedicate yourself to 2 classes a night for 2-3 years in Taekwondo, you should be able to test for your black belt, assuming you learn well, practice hard, and have good instructors. Even if you've been training for 8 or 9 years, but you train in 3 or 4 styles, I'd almost bet that you might not have tested for black belt yet.

Another thing, search the post on "When did you strt your martial arts training" and see when many of the posters began... I saw ages ranging from 4 to late 30s.

[Labatt]

I started when I Was 7. I skipped about 2 testings, and basicly an entire belt level. I reached poom belt, then I reached 1st dan, then 2 yrs later 10 gups later(on one testings I got rid of 3 gups, I was at my top at that time) , I reached 2nd dan. 3 and a half years later( ya, i stupidly took a year off and missed 4! testings...I've never been the same again.) , I reached 3rd dan. I've been in it for 8 years.

A 30 year old 3rd dan could teach better than a 15 yr old 3rd dan??? In my schools, we have a 5th dan 40 year old black belt. He teaches classe's. Everysingle time he forgets something(which is often) he asks me, and I explain it to the class. Infact, I usually end up leading the class, when he can't remember. Some people learn faster! Ever though of that? I remember learning Koreo, Taibek, Kungung....on my own. I watched, and I went home and in 1 hour I learned it. Just by teaching my self. (that's a whole new issue, learning at a faster pace, while everyone else isn't) Yes, this 15 year old can teach better than alot of people. Size, obviously im gonna get over powered by a guy twice my size. Talent, on the other hand, natural talent, you can't fake it, you got it or you don't. I'll give you an example, there is a student who when I first started taught me. He was a 1st dan black belt. I am now ahead of him, and teach him. The issue is giving away black belts to little "Baby kids" that do not diserve it!!!! Sorry to be brutally honest, my god these kids SUCK! They can't throw a front kick properly without loosing balance.

Any way, I actually appreciate your critisism against me. It should be thrown out there, and discussed. I have already tested.

I wan't your opinion on something guys. I pay this testing, I just pay it, make sure I get the certification ecetera. But, if I get to go free, no monthly payments, just testings I have to pay(gup testings are about hundreds something 1nce every 6 months) Do you think that is something you could settle for?

[JediMasterChris]

I agree that age has nothing to do with talent, I also help teach Kendo, I know it is much different than TKD, but still saying I am not worthy of a Dan grade is a pretty stupid thing to say, I have worked my ass off twice as hard as some of the Dans who are older than me, when fighting with swords size doesn't really matter as much but even if it did I am bigger than most of the people who I do Kendo with, just because we are young doesn't mean we are small and wimpy and age has NOTHING to do with talent (to a certain extent).

[Helm]

I was 17 when i reached 1st dan, and my brother was 15 when he reached 1st dan at the same time.

Both of us got to 1st dan in about 2 years, we're both very athlectic and natrually talented TKD'sts. At that point we were ranked in the same league as alot of other people who were older than us in the club. For power and lack of head-hair they beat us ok, but they couldnt match our speed, dedication and technique.

My best memory of this, was shortly after i got to black belt, the class started and a guy who hadnt been to our class for about a year was there. He was a red belt, about 25 and looked fairly confident and well built. He was standing in the black belt senior line, beind another black belt, i walked up to line up and said "excuse me mate.." because he was supposed to stand behind me. He looked very annoyed, and looked at me and said "ok, we'll see in sparring", my teacher heard this but didnt say anything.

Later on, as it would have it, we were doing sparring, and my teacher put me up against this guy, he looked at me like "RIGHT, now i'll show you".

I kicked his ass. I kicked him in the face at least once, and got several nice headshots, totally wiped the floor with him.
When we'd finished my teacher walked over and said, very loudly, "Hes good you know! No one reaches black belt here without being good!".

The guy never came back.

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by Thomas
A couple of quick items:

PTCruiser: about repulsive “baby black belts”, I did a search under Kenpo (which your profile states that you hold a 5th dan in) and came up with age 4-7 “Ninja Black Belt: Zebra” rankings. According to www.kenponet.com, there are black belt rankings for ages 4-7, 7-teen, and adults. You don’t list your age, but you hold a very high rank. If I may ask, when did you start practicing Kenpo and how long did it take you to reach 5th dan?



By the way, I am seriously interested in learning how long Stump, JohnDoch, and PTCruiser took to attain black belts… and no, I am not trying to put you down… just curious.

Started in 1966, Kosho Ryu Kenpo, no 4-7 yr old blackbelts in it, only Thomas Mitose can promote blackbelts, black in 1973 till present 1st dan in Tae Soo Do, almost 50 yrs old. 5th dan in 1985. We don't promote like american TKD. Was 20 when promoted to blackbelt.

[JediMasterChris]

You reached first dan in 2 years???? Woah, I reached first Dan in over 5.

[YODA]

Started in 1966, Kosho Ryu Kenpo, no 4-7 in it, only Thomas Mitose can promote blackbelts, black in 1973

1973-1966 = 7 years

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by YODA
1973-1966 = 7 years

thanks Yoda,
no 4-7 yr old blackbelts in kosho ruy kenpo

[Helm]

Possibly because they can pronounce it?

Taekwondo and Karate is much easier to say for a 5 year old :D

[stump]

Thomas I hold brown belts in two different styles. Grades have no relevance to me anymore and I don't see them as important in judging a style. However the world at large does, hence my problem with pubescant 3rd Dans. Do you not take Tito Ortiz seriously because he doesn't wear a black belt or would you prefer if he did?

>>>If the idea that a larger attacker will always beat a smaller attacker is taught in your school, I feel bad for the students. I would hate to tell the women's self defence group this news. What do you tell the small guys in the class? "You can't win because you are too small... >>>

Don't be a ****. If you really believe a small person can beat a bigger person on an even keel you're living a fantasy. Why do they have weights in combat sports? If two people, one small one big have a go even no rules the bigger stronger person has the avantage, therer are things that can neutralise the advantage but the size advantage is a fact. If it wasn't why would you need ladies self dence in the first place?

And are those child soldiers fighting hand to hand? I don't think so...so that point is hardly relevant.

Age isn't a factor but seeing as a teenager hasn't developed yet the chances are a mature adult (don't classify myself as one of those btw) is going to beat a teenager. THere are exceptions (Ross Pettifer anyone?) but it's a fair rule. Sorry if you don't like it.

By the way I've trained for about 8 years and as anyone who's trained with me will know I don't profess to be anything special


Why are you obsessed with everyone and their black belts?....no offence but they don't mean sh1t.

[stump]

Labatt

<<<I wan't your opinion on something guys. I pay this testing, I just pay it, make sure I get the certification ecetera. But, if I get to go free, no monthly payments, just testings I have to pay(gup testings are about hundreds something 1nce every 6 months) Do you think that is something you could settle for?>>>

Up to you bud. Bear in mind that people who go through the getting ripped off get to the top and continue the cycle...which is why it's important not to play ball in the first place. It's about the free market. If enough people refuse to pay extortionate training fees the people who charge will have to review their charging structure or go out of business.

[Thomas]

PTCruiser: A couple of things...

(1) from a post ("When did you start training") on June 24, 2003 "Kosho Ryu Kenpo
founded by the late James Mitose, Grandmaster
5th Dan started in 1968 at 13, blackbelt since 1973 cross-trained in 4 other styles also.


__________________
ptcruiser"

and then on this thread, you mention that you started in 1966 (and Yoda kindly did the math... but my my figuring, that comes out to 5 years... 1973-1968). Typing mistake somewhere...

(2) I figured you'd get riled up by seeing the reference to 4-7 year old black belts in a system of (Ed Parker's) Kenpo. So, your kenpo school doesn't have "baby black belts"? Well, neither does my TKD school. The point I was trying to make is that when people generalize a WHOLE style based on one or two schools, it isn't right and doesn't represent the style. I would never slam Kenpo and say "well they have baby black belts...", I might slam ONE of the Kenpo schools if I had concrete knowledge of something dumb they were doing.

Stump: Without being 4 stars (****) (whatever word you were trying to call me in the sake of clean discussion), a couple things:

(1) Again, I have to disagree with bigger means winner. Hence the point of women's self defence: TO DEFEAT LARGER, STRONGER OPPONENTS. Why do you talk about real self defence and then back up size differences by talking about competition weight classes. There are weight classes in competition to ensure a match more closely determined by skill and speed. On the street, there are no weight classes, which is why I train (and teach occassionally) how to defeat larger attackers. By the way, what's an even keel on the street (we are talking self defence)? I will use all of my skill and technique when facing someone on the street, who most likely will be bigger than me. So I guess I "am living in a fantasy world" because I believe a smaller person can beat a bigger guy.

(2) Why am I obsessed about black belts? I am not. The problem I have is when people criticize a WHOLE STYLE based on one or two examples. I also hate it when people are put down because of their age or gender... and not considered as a valid martial artist. I get bothered also by people who have never been through a Taekwondo black belt test (let alone any black belt test) that take it upon themselves to put down black belts without knowing what they have been through. (Again, I am speaking through my own experiences in the schools where I practice TKD).

[stump]

The word was tw*t......no offence meant...more like a "come on....be serious". Sorry yoda!!!!

I've trained with TKD people of both groups a lot, both good and bad. The good ones considered it a sport and nothing more...they were honest. TKD is a bad choice for self defence, but WTF is a great sport.

Bigger peope have the advantage in a confrontation. A good big person will beat a good little person more often than not.....

Gradings and black belts mean very little to me because they focus on kata and padded sparring not fighting. You're not comparing like with like

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by Thomas
[B]PTCruiser: A couple of things...

(1) from a post ("When did you start training") on June 24, 2003 "Kosho Ryu Kenpo
founded by the late James Mitose, Grandmaster
5th Dan started in 1968 at 13, blackbelt since 1973 cross-trained in 4 other styles also.


__________________
ptcruiser"

and then on this thread, you mention that you started in 1966 (and Yoda kindly did the math... but my my figuring, that comes out to 5 years... 1973-1968). Typing mistake somewhere...

(2) I figured you'd get riled up by seeing the reference to 4-7 year old black belts in a system of (Ed Parker's) Kenpo. So, your kenpo school doesn't have "baby black belts"? Well, neither does my TKD school. The point I was trying to make is that when people generalize a WHOLE style based on one or two schools, it isn't right and doesn't represent the style. I would never slam Kenpo and say "well they have baby black belts...", I might slam ONE of the Kenpo schools if I had concrete knowledge of something dumb they were doing.

Kid, I tested the waters and found you are more mature than the average 15 yr old. Will change date on profile, it was a typo, I started in 1966 not 1968. I see you went to the website and found in kosho ryu kenpo there was no infant bb's. No disrespect to you paying and performing at your school for your 3rd dan. However I will say don't take it to a kumite and see if you can defend yourself against other 3rd dans. Patted sparring and full contact are different animals. I've been there with the Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Bob Wall, Superfoot Wallace, Dimetrius the greek, Gordan Doversala, The snake Williams( who will tell you his only defeat came from me) these are not names I have heard and seen on tv, they were/are my personal friends. I'm from the old school a missing tooth and all. (from full contact)

[KickChick]

Originally posted by KickChick
Congrats to you Labatt!

There is all kinds of controversy that involves the ma ... (and not only TKD).
I am sure you will now run into "15 yrs. old and a 3rd dan black belt??" ...
Everything is worth it in the end!!


... like I said.....<<casting a foreboding look at ALL the following replys posted thereafter>> :rolleyes:

I literally opened up a can of worms!
Note that this thread appears in the Tae Kwon do forum and has taken a turnabout (maybe due to my comment) I did not mean for this to happen.... but it has.

Again, like I said "There is all kinds of controversy that involves the ma ... (and not only TKD).
I am sure you will now run into "15 yrs. old and a 3rd dan black belt??" ...

and you will continue to do so ...

[Thomas]

Originally posted by ptcruiser
Kid, I tested the waters and found you are more mature than the average 15 yr old. Will change date on profile, it was a typo, I started in 1966 not 1968. I see you went to the website and found in kosho ryu kenpo there was no infant bb's. No disrespect to you paying and performing at your school for your 3rd dan. However I will say don't take it to a kumite and see if you can defend yourself against other 3rd dans. Patted sparring and full contact are different animals. I've been there with the Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Bob Wall, Superfoot Wallace, Dimetrius the greek, Gordan Doversala, The snake Williams( who will tell you his only defeat came from me) these are not names I have heard and seen on tv, they were/are my personal friends. I'm from the old school a missing tooth and all. (from full contact)

Thanks for the mixed comments... but I do have to clarify something: Labatt and Thomas are two different people.
Thomas (me) is 32 years old and have been training in TKD since 1994 (and other fighting styles since 14). I haven't been called a "kid" in a while... but hey, it feels pretty good. As far as "paying and performing" for black belts... not in my school. They are earned.

I did search some Kenpo sites and found some Kenpo systems that promoted black belts art the ages of 4-7 (see previous posts). I checked out Kosho-ryu kenpo but couldn't find any information on age requirements. However, your theory of young black belts being too young to teach adequately is defied by the biography of the 21st Grandmaster of your style (and I seriously mean no form of disrespect):

"Born in Hawaii, at the age of four years old, James Mitose was sent to Japan to study the family art. The family art which had been the art of Chuan Fa (Chinese), Kenpo, or Kempo (Japanese) which Mitose Masters had modified successively, until it became Kosho - Ryu (old pine tree style) Kenpo. A complete system of self-defense (Kosho - Shorei) which includes religion and training in the arts and humanities in addition to the actual self defense techniques (Kosho - Ryu).
Following fifteen years of training, James Mitose returned to Hawaii, deciding to share the family art with people of all races. Opening a school, he found that with the rigors of the system. Involving the training in religious philosophies in addition to actual fighting techniques, very few students mastered the system. (http://kosho-ryu_kenpo.tripod.com/)"

If I do the math (as Yoda likes), that makes him a (4 + 15) 19 year old instructor WITH HIS OWN SCHOOL!

As far as your warnings about going to a "kumite" and etc, I still fail to see where you will criticize a young black belt's fighting ability based only on his age. You know nothing else about him and I don't see why he shouldn't stack up to other 3rd dans.

Keep in mind that in many of these "kumite" you refer to come complete with age/weight/rank divisions as well and tend to have certain rules. Unless of course, you were refering to the Frank Dux style "kumite" that we all have had so much access to. Where you advise him NOT to go to a 'kumite", I say "try out your skills at tournaments and competitions and test your skills."

Yes, padded sparring and full contact can be a bit different, but even if you look at pictures from some of the legends you mentioned, you'll see them wearing mouthpieces, gloves, shin/instep guards, and so on. To compete in different styles, you need different training. We compete in Taekwondo. We also train for self defence.

The name-dropping is pretty impressive, and it truly seems that your association with the upper crust of martial arts legends has earned you a great deal of humility towards younger students trying to follow in the footsteps of legends.

[Thomas]

“When I was your age” from Black Belt magazine:

http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/bbkids/yourage/benny/index.asp

From http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/bbkids/yourage/wiwya8.asp An interview with Joe Lewis:
Introduction: Joe is particularly famous for three accomplishments: He earned a black belt in three styles in less than one year, he created the sport of kickboxing, and he successfully made the transition from champion noncontact fighter to champion semi-contact fighter to champion full-contact fighter.
Mr. Lewis’ words: "I started taking formal training in a couple different styles of shorinrya," he says. "In the first year, I made black belt in kobayashi-ryu, matsubayashi-ryu and Okinawan kempo."
(Black belts in 3 styles in 1 year!)

Benny Urquidez: I was born on June 20, 1952, right here in Los Angeles.
BBFK: How long did you fight on the point circuit?
Benny: I believe my first year was 1964 and my last 1973.
(Let’s see… math wise that’s 1964-1952 = 12 years old and retired at age 21)

BBFK: When did you begin competing?
Rickson Gracie: When I was six. My father used to give me one gift if I won and two if I lost. That takes away the pressure of having to win. Everything changed when I turned 14. 1 was more knowledgeable of what I was doing and competition became more serious."

The purpose of the above quotes is to illustrate that the time it takes and the age you begin to seek your black belt is NOT as important as your dedication and your ability.

[ptcruiser]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas
[B]

I did search some Kenpo sites and found some Kenpo systems that promoted black belts art the ages of 4-7 (see previous posts). I checked out Kosho-ryu kenpo but couldn't find any information on age requirements. However, your theory of young black belts being too young to teach adequately is defied by the biography of the 21st Grandmaster of your style (and I seriously mean no form of disrespect):

Ptcruiser- Sorry about mixing up your ages.
You did leave out one important issue about Grandmaster Mitose- he studied and practised 10-12 hrs a day 7 days a week, not 4 hrs a two times a week.


If I do the math (as Yoda likes), that makes him a (4 + 15) 19 year old instructor WITH HIS OWN SCHOOL!

As far as your warnings about going to a "kumite" and etc, I still fail to see where you will criticize a young black belt's fighting ability based only on his age. You know nothing else about him and I don't see why he shouldn't stack up to other 3rd dans.

Keep in mind that in many of these "kumite" you refer to come complete with age/weight/rank divisions as well and tend to have certain rules. Unless of course, you were refering to the Frank Dux style "kumite" that we all have had so much access to. Where you advise him NOT to go to a 'kumite", I say "try out your skills at tournaments and competitions and test your skills."


Ptcruiser- will agree with trying your skills at tournaments and visit other styles for friendly sparring.

Yes, padded sparring and full contact can be a bit different, but even if you look at pictures from some of the legends you mentioned, you'll see them wearing mouthpieces, gloves, shin/instep guards, and so on. To compete in different styles, you need different training. We compete in Taekwondo. We also train for self defence.

Ptcriuser- Thomas didn't have to look at the pictures, I was in many back in 70's. Undefeated in my division.

Ptcruiser- no disrespect to you or your school, I travel and do demos across Texas to Kentucky and in Alaska. Texas seems to have more TKD schools than other states I have visited. I demonstrate power and speed. Unfortunately I have found one TKD school outside of Dallas that exhibits exceptional talent. I not only visit TKD but Ninjutsu, Kung Fu,Kickboxing,Kempo,kenbo,Shaolin Do,TSD,Okinawa-te,Bujinkan and others who invite me.

The name-dropping is pretty impressive,

Ptcruiser- not meant to only be impressive but true.
If I come across as being anti-TKD I apologize, I'm only against taking people for their money without giving the best training available to their style. Several instructors bragged about how much they make off their students.

[Thomas]

Yes, I would definately agree that some schools, and not just TKD, do milk students for a lot of money, esp. in testing, membership dues, and training fees. And it can be much worse in areas with little competition.

The point I was tring to make with GM Mitose is that he was a young (19 yr old) martial artist held in such esteem that he had his own school. As you mention, if you look at his training records, he had a lot... but that confirms that TRAINING should be the deciding factor of a black belt, and NOT age.

I think one of my points was misconstrued when I mentioned that I hope Labatt continues on to become a master with his own school. I didn't expect that to happen in the near furture. I know that even as a 3rd or 4th dan, it's pretty tough to have your own school. TKD has some age restrictions and a person would also have to learn how to run a school. Labatt, at age 15 as a 3rd dan, if he were to continue in TKD (as I hope), is looking at at least 4-5 years before 4th dan. At that point (18 or 19 years old), he would probably be recommended to become an assistant instrutor at another master's school, wher he would essentially intern for a while. After a few years of that, and only with a great record, could he hope to open his own school. This actually is one of the benefits of a heirarchy: limiting who becomes aschool owner until they've been proven. Can this be side stepped? Unfortunatley, yes.

In closing, I think where sometimes TKD black belts are looked at as "inferior", I must remind people that comparing black belts ACROSS STYLES is not always accurate. In TKD, 1st dan essentially means to have mastered the basic curriculum and be ready for more intense training. Instructors are normally 3-5 th dans. As a 2nd dan, I work as an assistant instructor, mainly because of my background and experience and of course because we don't have many other higher ranked black belts in the area.

Again the main reason I am defending TKD is because I have been picky about the schools I have trained at and they have all been good. Not all TKD schools are good and not all are bad. I just had seterotyping and generalizing based on style and not content. (That applies to all systems) If I ruffled any feathers, I heartily apologize.

[stump]

As I said i have trained with some very good TKD people.....they are the exception though I appreciate they do exist

<<<In closing, I think where sometimes TKD black belts are looked at as "inferior", I must remind people that comparing black belts ACROSS STYLES is not always accurate. In TKD, 1st dan essentially means to have mastered the basic curriculum and be ready for more intense training. >>>

Black belts are perceived as a universal standard...while I take your point surely the fact that a black belt in TKD is a lesser standard than other arts is something to be remedied?

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by Thomas
Yes, I would definately agree that some schools, and not just TKD, do milk students for a lot of money, esp. in testing, membership dues, and training fees. And it can be much worse in areas with little competition.

Ptcruiser- the East coast and out of the US must have a different perspective in TKD, do you not have ATA affiliates there?
I too would like to see Labatt continue in ma but with a different attitude not believing us older more experienced teachers can't control them in a ring or know a technique as well as they do, that is utter non-sense. I also saw in another thread our young friend saying he needed help with his weak-side side kick. That should have been done at brownbelt, However I respect his honesty.
In Texas for instance you will find many 1st and 2nd dan's with their own school.

In closing, I think where sometimes TKD black belts are looked at as "inferior", I must remind people that comparing black belts ACROSS STYLES is not always accurate. In TKD, 1st dan essentially means to have mastered the basic curriculum and be ready for more intense training. Instructors are normally 3-5 th dans. As a 2nd dan, I work as an assistant instructor, mainly because of my background and experience and of course because we don't have many other higher ranked black belts in the area.

Ptcruiser- Thomas if you re-read my post without taking it personal, you will see it was implied against discrepancies with-in the system not a total put-down of all TKD styles.

Again the main reason I am defending TKD is because I have been picky about the schools I have trained at and they have all been good. Not all TKD schools are good and not all are bad. I just had seterotyping and generalizing based on style and not content. (That applies to all systems) If I ruffled any feathers, I heartily apologize.

Ptcruiser- been in it too long for my feathers to get ruffled. I hope I am challenging you readers to not reply from your feelings, that is the first sign of maturity.(not calling you inmature) lol to all

[johndoch]

Quote Thomas - "By the way, the argument by JohnDoch about seeing other threads in other forums to see what is being said about “baby blackbelts” is pretty funny. First of all, we are discussing Taekwondo… other forums discuss other styles. The people who participate on other forums are probably not going to support Taekwondo in a rationale way because they are not Taekwondo practioners. Besides, just because someone says something doesn’t make it true. However, if we follow this logic, we can look in the “most dangerous martial art” thread and see that many people picked Muay Thai… which, by the way, offers instruction and full contact competition to juniors!"

Eh? Did I say that, If you check back you'll see that this was said by ptcruiser.

I've personally never bothered with gradings went Kickboxing for 2 years and only graded once so that I could spar. Kung fu 2.5 years I did grade twice. Sasma does grading about once a year which I have graded for.

Over the course I've never been to a club long enough to be a BB but that doesnt bother me and I've missed plenty of opportunities to grade but thats not my goal.

When we talk about a 3rd dan in less than 10 years it makes me wonder about the guys in the founding countries who probably work about ten years just to get to BB.

BTW no feathers ruffled here mate :D

[Labatt]

Im talking to my instructor tomorrow. I will let you know how it go's.

[Labatt]

I quit.

Officially, I did. I said “Im your best student, I’ve been here for 8 yrs, and you said I could get to go free after 3rd degree” He still said “ No” Now he says I’ll go free after 4th degree. Infact my instucter says hes gonna up the price by 10%. And that was that folks. I paid the testing though, other wise all the other money would be waiste.

My dream is crushed ) : Im hitting the boose right now, if anyone would like to join me please do HAhaha…..cheers

[Peaceful_John]

Don't hit the booze. I think you did a good thing. You more than likely enjoyed the past 8 years, so don't think of it as money wasted. Happiness and piece of mind are worth more than money. My advise is to look around for a different style and go there. Make sure to ask about all the fees beforehand. If you put in all the hard work and dedication you did in TKD i'm sure you'll be there best student in no time. You say your dream is crushed? Was your dream to become a 4th dan in TKD, or to become the best MAist you can be? You can still do that. You're young, and 3 or 4 more years is nothing. And just because you don't go to a TKD school doesn't mean you have to stop practicing it on your own, so you'll always be a 3rd dan in TKD.

You're a 15 year old with a 3rd dan in TKD and you're drinking. I'm 23, divorsed, living with the parents, recent bankrupt, barely making it through college, and i'm scraping up money just to be able to take a martial art, but i have a cup of coffee so everything is fine. There are two morals to this story - no matter how bad things are they could always get worse - And coffee fixes everything, so have yourself a cup.

I envy you. I would be so lucky to have your dedication and self-confidence. Those two things are more important than a TKD school that rips off it students, so cheer up and count yourself lucky.

Best of luck kid. I hope everything turns out for the best.

[ptcruiser]

LaBatt,
instead of quitting, Is there any other TKD school you could join since you have your certification?
Would hate to see ma lose someone dedicated. Sometimes we have to move on to something bigger and better for us. One of the hardest things to do is change, after all we get cozy in our comfortable surroundings.
Whatever you do don't give up completely. Good luck.

[Andy Murray]

Labatt, I have to say I'm glad you have taken this step.

At 3rd Dan, what more could TKD have offered you?

Ever consider training in another discipline?

[Marku]

good luck Labatt! hope you make the right decision and continue your training :-)

[teacher]

Good Luck Labatt. I hope you find another club or art to enjoy. It's the training , the learning and the people you will meet that will keep it worthwhile. Some of the recent comments seem to have walloped some TKD clubs but your acheivements are to your credit whatever your age.

[darlph]

Hey guy, you set out to do what you said, very nice! You didn't quit and you won. Andy is right , time to take the next step, now is the time to add to your training. Perhaps another style?
Just keep you integrity and not bad mouth your previous school or teacher. Obviously his word is not good, so be above him. You already "outrank" him in that and he broke your trust.
Keep up working out and training while you look for something else.:)

[Artikon]

Bigger peope have the advantage in a confrontation. A good big person will beat a good little person more often than not.....

I don't agree with this . . . unless the confrontation becomes physical, then I will say that size does play an advantage but it can be overcome with proper training and awareness. The trick is for a smaller fella . . . such as myself weighing in at a massive 134 lbs is to not allow a confrontation to get to a point where the other fella wants to hit you. Get outta dodge if you can, if that doesn't work go to plan B. Keep him talking and let him know its a bad idea in any way you can (my personal favorite: You're going to hit a tiny guy? Okay, but I hope buddy over there can afford bail with the amount of witnesses around) If B doesn't work, go to C and fight hard and cheat :D If you ain't cheatin you're not trying hard enough.

Black belts are perceived as a universal standard...while I take your point surely the fact that a black belt in TKD is a lesser standard than other arts is something to be remedied?

Why is it percieved this way . . . how about sterotype? How about all the mysterious BS that the public holds a black belt to. Black belt is NOT a universal standard, otherwise there wouldn't be all these "issues" regarding what a black belt is. For my school 1st dan is familar with basics, your job now is to polish them. 2nd dan now has techniques polished, time to develop your power, 3rd dan now has the power, time to build speed and fluidity, 4th dan has all the tools now to begin learning how to be an instructor. 5th dan and up, now really begin to contribute back to your art. How does this cause a BB in TKD to be at a lesser standard. It's just a different way of teaching and different mentality behind it.

My "claim to fame" as a black belt is that I can do a front kick, round kick, and side kick pretty good, but everyday I improve. I tell my students this because I'm not going to tell them I'm something I'm not. I am not perfect, I will not survive a street confrontation 100% of the time, althought I have a good chance to get away, I am not a national champion, although with much training I could be. Will this get me a black belt in another art or style . . . probably not. Does this bother me? Nope, because I'm currently on a journey of TKD. Will this prevent me from studying other styles? Nope, not in the least, in fact I take what I learn from other stuff and take it back to TKD training. (Just learned MT kicks and did some conditioning this last week, WOW do I hurt but it's good)

Last note to Labatt, sorry to hear dude. Whatever you do don't let it get you down, continue training with whatever you choose, work hard, train hard, keep spirit and if you ever need a hand finding another TKD school in your area, let me know, may be able to help. . . . BTW your BC provincial team did well at nationals this weekend, some good up and comer fighters, glad my face wasn't in the way of some of them.

[KickChick]

Hey Labatt... sorry to hear the news.

(Really sorry!) .... seems that you ay need to (again) take a breather and see what your options now might be.

One thing is for sure, as you go through life you will learn (and it is unfortunate) ... that you sometimes cannot take anyone's word especially when it comes down to $$ .... sometimes this is when a contract does come in handy although frowned upon with regards to ma training.. I find them at tmes necessary.

What surprises me is that you are not instructing at this school.
Many of our bb assist and instruct several classes (especially at holday/vacation time) and are either compensated or tuition is waived.

I am only 2nd dan and I have been training for 10 years (I have 250 lessons to go for 3rd dan)... I don't pay for my training but do pay testing fees. There is an option for you if you approach your instructor honestly... he I am sure doesn't want to lose his "best student"

[stump]

<<<I don't agree with this . . . unless the confrontation becomes physical, then I will say that size does play an advantage but it can be overcome with proper training and awareness.>>>

How many fights have you heard of that haven't been physical?!! I agree with you but the training and awareness has to be proper, and most martial arts classes sell themselves as self defence and then proceed to teach things that are more likely to get someone hurt than save them......(not MY club I hear everyone shout). Some of you will be correct, and some will be deluding yourselves.

<<<How does this cause a BB in TKD to be at a lesser standard. >>>

If my MA club's blackbelt involves learning A, B, C, and D for 3 years and another persons club involves learning A, B, C, D, E, F, and G over 5 years then the second club has the better standard black belts.

And a black belt shows that you know the stuff not that you can do it

[johndoch]

Labatt

Sorry to hear that you had to quit.

It should be for the best. Just remember to keep training and good luck in finding something new

[Thomas]

Sorry to hear that your training will be disrupted and I hope you find your way into another school soon (whatever style). For what it matters, it sounds to me like you made a good choice. My only advice is to not waste time boozing and feeling bad. Get out and see what your options are... have some fun and sample some nearby schools. May fortune shine upon you wherever you may go.

[Artikon]

How many fights have you heard of that haven't been physical?!!

From my experience . . . many. To me a fight doesn't have to involve anything to physical in the sense of fists flying, going to the ground, etc . . . Fights can be verbal, fights can be puffed up chests about ego. See these all the time in pubs and bars. Person A has to much to drink. Tries pick fight with person B. Person B tells him it's a bad idea. Confrontation averted. I won't say I've been in tons of actual fights. I have managed to piss off enough people though that they want to hurt me, (just my charming personality :D ) but I've always either got out of the situation, or simply talked them down. I'm not a self defense expert by any means, but I think so far I'm doing a pretty good job, haven't had to hit anyone yet, and I haven't been hit.

I do agree however that it is wrong for a school to pass itself off as a self defense school if say, for the sake of arguement, all they teach is olympic style sparring. That's gonna get someone hurt and I'm sure has. I feel it's wrong for a person to call a cat a dog, not so much because of the honesty issue, but because it's going to get people hurt.

If my MA club's blackbelt involves learning A, B, C, and D for 3 years and another persons club involves learning A, B, C, D, E, F, and G over 5 years then the second club has the better standard black belts

I think this analogy is wrong. If 3 year training black belt only needs to learn 4 things, that means he can spend 3/4 of a year training that one thing to become profficient at it. This is more time than your other 5 year BB who trains to learn 7 concepts who will spend 7/10 of a year with the ideas. Granted the 5 year BB is introduced to more, but do you think maybe the 3 year BB is more profficient and has a better understanding of the things he has studied? More is not always better.

[stump]

I think you'll find theat in most people's dictionary that's not a fight.....so my point holds.

<<<I do agree however that it is wrong for a school to pass itself off as a self defense school if say, for the sake of arguement, all they teach is olympic style sparring. That's gonna get someone hurt and I'm sure has. I feel it's wrong for a person to call a cat a dog, not so much because of the honesty issue, but because it's going to get people hurt.>>>

and if all they teach is sloppy wrist locks against a compliant partner they are also going to get their students hurt. A lot of "self defence classes" forget the meat and potatoes of self defence - the jab cross.

If one person practices kicking for one year and another practices kicking for three years, who'd going to have the better kicks...length of time does matter which is why the majority of TKD black belts I've experienced are piss poor.....not all I agree but their minimum standard for a black belt is the lowest I've seen.

But that's all irrlelvant to be honest, because grades don't mean a damn thing. I'm far more concerned with an avoidance of real sparring, a very incomplete syllabus and a majority of time spent doing irrelevant things like hyung. That's the main reason TKDs black belts are substandard....couple that with a short time training and you got a problem

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump
I'm far more concerned with an avoidance of real sparring, a very incomplete syllabus and a majority of time spent doing irrelevant things like hyung. That's the main reason TKDs black belts are substandard....couple that with a short time training and you got a problem

Sorry for dragging this thread kicking and screaming off topic but......

Personally, I feel it is not the TKD syllabus that is flawed 90% of the time it is instructors!!!

The numbers of times I've seen students put forward to grade becuase they've fulfilled time requirements is astonishing.

Although I've now seen this "sub-standard TKD black belts" remark popping up rather too much. Of course I'm biased but I'm off to start a (hopefully) interesting thread on ....

<drum roll>

Minumum requirements for Bbelt

[stump]

I didn;t say it was flawed I said it was incomplete.

I appreciate it's not a grappling style so I can't fault it for a lack of grappling, but it's elbows and knees are laughable and it has no clinch work. TKD like many TMA arts is more inteested in being unique than in being good.


But I agree that getting belts is too focused upon......but that's the fault of both the students and instructors normally.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump

I appreciate it's not a grappling style so I can't fault it for a lack of grappling, but it's elbows and knees are laughable and it has no clinch work. TKD like many TMA arts is more interested in being unique than in being good.


Agreed that the elbows and knees are not great, by the way I thought these were valid tools to use in a "clinch"?

However, my point of view is that TMA are good BECAUSE they are unique. TKD's speciality area is fast,hard kicking at numerous levels in the air and on the ground. In no way have I ever seen it touted as a "complete" martial art.

Fair enough it's not the definitive answer but it is an answer!

IMHO TKD is a hammer, good at bashing things, but sometimes you need a wrench! That's the importance of cross training.

[stump]

You're dead right......I meant that TKD has no clinch work.....elbows and knees are the weapons of choice at that range.

I like your analogy btw

<<<However, my point of view is that TMA are good BECAUSE they are unique. >>>

Couldn't disagree more but each to their own. :)

[Artikon]

I think you'll find theat in most people's dictionary that's not a fight.....so my point holds

Okay I can go with that



and if all they teach is sloppy wrist locks against a compliant partner they are also going to get their students hurt. A lot of "self defence classes" forget the meat and potatoes of self defence - the jab cross

Again I agree



If one person practices kicking for one year and another practices kicking for three years, who'd going to have the better kicks. . . . (edit) . . . . . But that's all irrlelvant to be honest, because grades don't mean a damn thing

I do agree with length of time playing a vital role in a persons ability to perform and understand technique and the validility of said technique, but if you just have to practise kicks well that's just super. Typically there is much more than just kicks required for reaching black belt in a given art. If anyone has miminum requirements for other styles could you post them please I'd like to compare going along the lines of Tosh's request.

I think right now we have a comparision of apples and oranges going on. We are comparing a black belt stereotype against black belt reality. The reality is that every style has a different purpose for the grade of black belt. As I said before 1st dan TKD just get good at the basics. From there you have a solid base. I can't speak for other arts but some of what I believe right now is that 1st dan in other arts has more to it. Which is better? Neither, just how the teaching progression works.

I agree that there are some definate sub standard BB among TKD practicioners, but this has to do with instruction and testing to early. All arts/styles/instructors are guilty of this. I don't honestly believe there is a perfect system or syllabus out there to properly catch these sub standards, but what I do know is that systems are improving to rectify this. This isn't something that just isn't being swept under the carpet so to speak.

BTW Tosh, I second the nice anaology . . . and how was Greece.

[Artikon]

As per Tosh's request this it the minimum requirements for testing as per Kukkiwon, interested to see what others have to do.

Article 10

1) Test of techniques

i) poomse (forms)
ii) kyorugi (sparring)
iii) kyukpa (breaking)
iv) special techniques

2) Test of theoretical study (over 4th dan applicant)

i) written examination
ii) thesis

Article 11

Specified Subjects of Practical Techniques Applied to the
Poom and Dan Promotion Test

1st dan/poom: Taeguek 1-7 random choice of panel, taegeuk 8 compulsory
2nd dan/poom: Taegeuk 1-8 random choice of panel, koryo compulsory
3rd dan/poom: Taegeuk 1-koryo random choice of panel, keumgang
4th dan/poom: Taegeuk 1-keumgang random choice of panel, taebaek complulsory
5th dan: Taegeuk 1-taebaek random choice of panel, pyongwon compulsory
6th dan: Taegeuk 1-sipjin random choice of panel, jitae compulsory
7th dan: Taegeuk 1-jitae random choice of panel, cheonkwon compulsory
8th dan: Taegeuk 1-cheonkwon random choice of panel, hansoo complusory
9th dan: Taegeuk 1-hansoo random choice of panel, Ilyon compulsory

Please note that these are just minimum requirements taken from the Kukkiwon website, there are no maximum requirements, and I have never heard of a school that adheres strictly to the minimums. When I tested for 1st dan, weapons, and theory were included as well as a heavy self defense section and free fighting. In addition to the above requirements there are also age, and time in rank requirements as well.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump

<<<However, my point of view is that TMA are good BECAUSE they are unique. >>>

Couldn't disagree more but each to their own. :)

Hmmm, I think I confused you and me a little.

I meant that because TMA are unique that is what brought around such varyation in other MA. Man continual search for better solutions, examining varying ranges and "uniquness" has led to much more complete MA being developed.

Quite simply we wouldn't have one without the other.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Artikon

BTW Tosh, I second the nice anaology . . . and how was Greece.

Thank you!

And for Greece.... grumble, grumble, grumble.

Busy this morning but will eventually write a report.

The Korean demonstration team was amazing. In particular 3 on 1 free sparring with hands tied/handcuffed was amazing!!

I have video I'm trying to put into clips! Bloody laptop!

[stump]

Hi Tosh,

my point is that arts should do what works best....who cares where the technique/training method/etc is from? Trad MAs seem more interested in their uniqueness than their effectiveness. Sometimes different isnt always better...when it is though it's called evolution!!!!

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump
Hi Tosh,

my point is that arts should do what works best....who cares where the technique/training method/etc is from?

Unfortunatly, MA are like anti-bodies! Hold on to your analogy hats Bat-Fans .....We keep developing new MA to combat the situations we are more likely to encouter but man, the virus, can always find a weakness!

It's therefore inevietable that there will be diversity otherwise we woudln't develop.

Anyways let's stop taking this thread off track. If you want to continue the discussion point us in the direction of a relevant thread... if none start one!

[Helm]

God damn.
My TKD teacher quit TKD on monday :(
Now i basically have no TKD teacher.... :( He didnt say why he quit, but he was talking to me a while ago about how people we'rnt dedicated enough to the training (he teaches because he loves TKD, and makes no money off it), apart from me and my brother there are only a handful of other dedicated people in my club.
Hes been training for 28 years and is nearly 50 now (although can still easily kick over headheight and do full splits), hes just had enough.
Someone else in the club has offered to take over the training, but i dont think i have enough respect for this person whos only been training a little while longer than me, and i feel cant teach me anything.

This sucks so much, i dont want my tkd training to goto waste. :(

And likewise i dont really want to start a new thread about this.

[Artikon]

Helm why don't you ask him if he'll teach you out of his basement then. If he loves teaching, he may just take you up on it.

[Helm]

Yeah i am. Gonna see if he wants to teach just a few of us a few times a week..

[Labatt]

Helm. Sorry about that bud.

Im sure your teacher will continue to teach a dedicated student like you.

Im going to train on my own, and train in gymnastic gym's from now. I have no teacher to teach me.

And I don't want to squaller my talent and ability. As I have said before I wan't to reach my full potential.

I hope it works out for all of us in the end.

[Helm]

Cheers dudes.
The club has been taken over by a senior student, and its now called "Fighting Fit Taekwondo".

Oh the humanity. I can see he'll have us all wearing lycra soon...

I can only see my Tkd training going downhill now....=(

[KickChick]

LYCRA :eek: .... so who looks better in their lycra shorts.... Helm or Yoda??? ;) :D

...well, look guys, the both of you (Helm and Labatt)
"where there is a will, there's a way".... seem's to me if you have the desire to train you should be able to find a way to do so... leave no stone unturned.
Don't exhaust yourselves complaining and channel your energies to finding a reputable club and don't lose track of your goals .... for once you do.....

... you may find yourself in lycra!:D

[darlph]

Lycra! Cute. No thanks, the guys wearing the lycra shorts on bicycles here all seem to buy them one size too small and when the sun hits them, oh the wonderful skin we see along the beach roads.
I a gree with Kick Chick if you have the will, you will find a way. Even if for the moment you have make your own schedule and do it on your own. Now that's the real test of being dedicated to your craft.
Good training to you.

[Helm]

Well the first lesson is tonight.
Guess me my bro and a friend who are all 2nd dans will have to train each other, as well as many other people.
Its also a 14 mile drive to get there. Man, someone is testing me.

[Helm]

Well i went.......

And it was pretty wang. I wasnt impressed at all. The guy who runs it is OK, but sometimes very arrogant. Hes moved towards a subscription based payment system and upped the cost to £3 from £2.50 for an hours training. And the emphasys seems to be on fitness, we spent 30mins running around and kicking the air, I can do that at home thanks.

But what really annoys me is that the guy who teaches now is kinda slow and prefers certain kicks, for instance he LOVES doing cresent kicks and jump back-kicks.
He cant do reverse roundhouse-kicks very well at all. So i get the impression that this kick i love so much just wont be tought, instead we were doing reverse cresents when we'd been doing reverse roundhouses for years, as they have a greater reach and much more power.

As arrogant as it sounds theres nothing to keep me there, I spent the first 40 mins feeling very annoyed at being taught pointless techniques by a guy who doesnt have better speed or technique at all to my bro and myself. It also seems the possibility of competitions is out of the window. This guy just cant coach.

I've found out theres a wing chun school about 2 miles from my house so im going to start that i think. And desperately try and find a decent TKD school once more...

[Peaceful_John]

I recently found out that a TKD school down the road from my KSW school changed to having eight belts - this way they get more $$$$ from testing fees - wich are insane anyway. I'm not really familiar with TKD so I was wondering how many belts there are supposed to be, and if any other schools that you guys/girls know of are doing this. I think it's a big rip. My instructor charges 45$ monthly fee combined for both me and my brother, testing fees are $25 all the way up to black belt, and all we have to buy as far as equipment is a $30 uniform, some patches, and shin guards. That's it. We have classes 3 days a week and we're aloud to come and watch any of the tests. Oh, and there is a $10 a year WKSA (World Kuk Sool Association) charge.

[Chazz]

Well tkd schools are different as well there most are White, yellow, green, blue, red, black and then there are others that are white, yellow, orange,green,purple, blue, brown, black.
It just depends on the school/org

[xplasma]

Peaceful_John, the price you are paying is a good I go to two dojos and the prices are as follows

GNB/KJJR
$120/month
includes: ALL testing including Shodan and above,Genbukan and Kokusai Membership, Seminars about 3 a year, Extra Training in Black Belt Club, and Unlimited Classes about 10 1-hour classes a week, and a private dojo that includes all the pads, weapons, etc. we need, and a judo uniform

BJJ
$105/month for 3 1.5 hour classes and 1 Aikido 1.5 hour class. ALL Testing fees and equiment. Again a Private Dojo.

This is near NYC where living is much more expensive if this seems a bit steep.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Helm
And desperately try and find a decent TKD school once more...

Alright Helm? Any luck in finding the school of your dreams???


Just a suggestion but ever thought about the Dark Side??


I.e. I know a couple of good quality ITF clubs that would be more than happy to accomodate you including a legitamate Master Instructor.

Where in Devon are you based???

If know of the following clubs:

DEVON, EXETER Master P Cultler & Mr P Taverner 4th Dan
DEVON, MIDDLEMOOR Mr A Smallshaw 3rd Dan
DEVON, PAIGNTON Mr S Millis 4th Dan
DEVON, NEWTON ABBOT Mr S Millis
DEVON, PLYMPTON, Mr K Burnell 3rd Dan

If anything I know you would get some v.good sparring with these guys. Mr Taverner is part of the ITF England team. The impression I got from your previous posts was that of a penchant for sparring but I could be wrong.

Holla for contact details if interested!!

[Helm]

Cheers tosh mate, but i'd rather either do WTF or something completely different, nothing against ITF.

Im actually in Tavistock, which is more or less central to devon. And i looked at the place where they do wing chun, but its closed down now...

Me and 2 friends went to everywhere that possibly could do martial arts in my town, we found a Ju Jitsu place and a kickboxing place, seems to be more of a karate/kickboxing thing though. Theres also a ITF club there, but its PUMA and i know a few people who used to train there and since puma took over its become a complete mcdojo. They even sell puma t-shirts in the dojo WHILST lessons are going on!

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Helm
Theres also a ITF club there, but its PUMA and i know a few people who used to train there and since puma took over its become a complete mcdojo. They even sell puma t-shirts in the dojo WHILST lessons are going on!

Heh

I've heard nothing but BAD press about PUMA, go figure.

I'd take the time to give Mr Taverner a go though, great guy for destruction!!!!!! Never know you might even get the chance of a Master Lesson for less £££

I've got 2 WTF students who train with me and still WTF, just taught them the patterns and away they go!!!

I think there are less integration probs in the UK for WTF/ITF than in the states.

[Holgate]

I'm glad I'm not the only onw who dosen't think much of PUMA. At the present time I train with the TAGB, which is excllent for me getting back into martial arts after a 15 year or so break. and where I occassionally train in Exeter (I'm a member of another local club in Devon) PUMA train straight after my class on a wednesday and they have always come across as being on the disorganised side compared with other organisations I have come across...so glad it's not just me who thinks that :)

On the WTF subject I have heard alot about it and have thought about getting along to a couple of their classes to see the diffrence, at the moment it's just a case of time.

Money wise I get the feeling fellow students in the States are being ripped off something bad by their organisations, I am sure there are cheaper than the TAGB, but for my money (27.50 per month) I can train at any club in the south west, just from my usual club and the exeter club I could train 7 days a week for the one fee)
I think students in the States need to start to answer back against some of the rip offs, afterall they are in every walk of life wether we like it or not.

[Pyry_Uotila]

what i would do is to go back to my instructor and politely apologise my behaviour and ask for some time to gather money for the test.
i am worried about how many people question their instructors nowadays. i would never even think of standing against of my instructor in the means of money.

[stump]

<<<i am worried about how many people question their instructors nowadays. i would never even think of standing against of my instructor in the means of money.>>>

Have fun being shafted then. The more people question their instructors the better....it might reduce the bull that gets put about as Martial arts.

You don't seem to cop that many instructors are screwing their students for money. It's bordering on criminal and has to stop.

If you want to follow someone unquestioningly take up religion.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by stump
<<<i am worried about how many people question their instructors nowadays. i would never even think of standing against of my instructor in the means of money.>>>

Have fun being shafted then. The more people question their instructors the better....it might reduce the bull that gets put about as Martial arts.


Easy stump the dude's only 14. :rolleyes:

Welcome Pyry_Uotila hope you enjoy posting on MAP I see you mentioned in other posts you train(ed) under grandmaster Rhee.

Out of interest which one?

[stump]

doh....sorry got carried away.

No offense pyry, welcome to the board...hope you enjoy the discussion.....it gets heated from time to time.

You're right to think you have to give your instructor a chance to teach you....but remember not all instructors are good, and some unfortunately teach downright useless stuff. You have to try and know the difference...that's why having a good teacher is very important

[TheMachine]

sad to see that many martial artists are after the money now. My teacher made me study for free when I was already a red belt, since I was dedicated to training and helped him in teaching. IMO, if instructors ask blackbelts to still pay regularly, especially if they are his products, watch out. The instructor may be more profit oriented than keen on developing your skills.

[Pyry_Uotila]

Originally posted by stump
doh....sorry got carried away.

No offense pyry, welcome to the board...hope you enjoy the discussion.....it gets heated from time to time.

You're right to think you have to give your instructor a chance to teach you....but remember not all instructors are good, and some unfortunately teach downright useless stuff. You have to try and know the difference...that's why having a good teacher is very important

no prob, i'm not really unquestionary following anyone because following blindly orders is against taekwondo tenetsthat's. just like the neo-nazis (alot of them in finland and sweden) they just hang out together, some one says "let's mug some black people" that sucks!!!
maybe i just haven't seen many people going after money, but i guess that's possible. and for me i was the one who carried away.
ok?
now for the other guy, i was in the seminar made by grandmaster rhee in finland earlier this year.

[Pyry_Uotila]

Originally posted by TheMachine
sad to see that many martial artists are after the money now. My teacher made me study for free when I was already a red belt, since I was dedicated to training and helped him in teaching. IMO, if instructors ask blackbelts to still pay regularly, especially if they are his products, watch out. The instructor may be more profit oriented than keen on developing your skills.

we too had just small raise in the training fee, because else they won't let us train in the hall next winter (we train almost only out side on the summer).

[wuchang79]

Things that are pure will always be touched by corruption. We have to basically have the wisdom to tell the difference. Economically, most instructors/masters have to earn a living as well by teaching. Students have to find a master/instructor that is in for the love of the art and not because they can think they'll make a lot of money.

The ones that enter into teaching for the wrong reasons will soon fail. Those who loose site of the responsibilties of spreading there knowledege will soon fail. Hope you find a school that suits you.

[stoppy]

Im going to start this post with reference to the origionator.. One Mr Labbatt. Is it just me or does anyone else feel that the young man, no matter how anoyed comes across somewhat arrogant.




Ettiquete, Modesty, Perserverence, Self Control and Indomitable Spirit.

Words to learn young Labbatt I think IMHO


JS

[stump]

Stoppy, welcome to the board.

Personally I think that the charges for senior belts are astronomical and are far too high considering what is being offered.

I think people are dead right to question such charges and that Labatt was rightly incensed.

Do you really think that grading charges into the hundreds of pounds are justified? I know they are common enough in certain styles!!!

[stoppy]

It is hard to price somethings ..

the BTMU is not cheap. What you get in the long run is often questioned anyway whichever organisation you grade with. The point of charging in my experience is as follows

To remunerate the travelling costs (cheapest possible) of the Masters on the grading panel

To cover the administration costs of Paper work on the day, filed copies for the cirtificate, the cirtificate.

All that considered I feel that the only way to get good value for money is to communicate with the organisation involved. Our prices vary from £110 pounds to over £150 pounds depending on the grade level .. but the tests involved take longer the higher up you go. I would say that anyone paying over £200 pounds for a grade should consider their options. Our BB gradings ususally have no more than 10 entrants going for the next level. And these gradings take all day. Consider that our panel has expert Masters of up to 7 Masters (My 2nd dan) then you have more experience looking down on you.

It has been ages since I saw 1 master grading 100 blackbelts but I know some National Orgs still charge more than we do and have up to a 100 on the floor you do the math and it is no longer a martial art for teaching and its become a martial art for profit.

thanx for the welcome.

Stoppy

[stoppy]

and yes i agree that the charges should reflect the level of grade going for, but no I agree it should not cost the earth. Sometimes it seems that it would be cheaper to fly out to korea and get a dan grade from there.

JS

[flyingblackbelt]

its really a sad truth, a lot of martial arts schools are really becoming money-centric and as a result the art is being lost, its rough training for that long and having that happen, ive been training for 8 years and teaching for 2, and ironiccally enough im testing for my 3rd dan tommorow, and i know how terrible i would feel if that happened to me, luckily i dont have to worry about that, find another school and stick it through, get to your 9th dan and try and change things.

[stump]

If something is good enough it's worth paying for.

Bruce Lee charged massive amounts for private lessons...the difference is we WAS Bruce Lee!!!

The local TKD, kung fu or whatever instructor is probably not as good and when they charge astronomical fes it's a rip off. The problem is that people feel obliged to pay these fees (probably grudgingly) because to not do so would be showing a lack of respect etc etc and that's a misuse of traditional values. And it does happen!!!!!

[stoppy]

I think you have nailed it there stump.. Western values mixed with eastern traditions for all the wrong reasons..

ie:

Eastern Respect ... Western Buck...

Stoppy
#

[Taeho]

In my opinion, it shows the utmost disregard for the values that MA stand for when teachers charge exorbitant amounts for higher ranking Dans. They seem to feel that you will pay, because you have come this far and would hate to quit because of money.

As in ALL ventures in life, get all costs IN WRITING before signing up for anything, MA included. Don't rely on the word of the teacher, he may be more of a businessman more than a wiseman.

What ever happened to cleaning and fetching water from the well in exchange for MA lessons? hmmmm seems that the way of the dragon is now though the ATM...

TKDshane Ÿ

[stoppy]

Q?

What is regarded the best price for dan gradings?

What do we on this forum that seem to all be singing from the same sheet feel is the recognisd medium for the price of grading> ?

example ..


pounds dollars and euros .. other denominations welcome ..

£80 - 1st dan
£100 - 2nd dan
.. increment £20 until limit reached // limit = £150 ??

end example ..


What are your thoughts ?

Plus what percentage is to National funds and what percentage is to masters pockets?

discuss? ?

[stump]

personally speaking I think all dans after 1st dan should be honorary and not based on a set syllabus. At least thats how it would be in my world!!!

[stoppy]

How about something like this ?


Basically people who reach the required levels of training and time served (touchy subject) go onto a waiting list. When so many are ready to grade then the grading takes place. This benifits larger groups but also the students.

eg .. grade 5 students at £200 / €300 / $400

or grade 20 @ £80 / €100 / $150

maybe your way would work after 4th dan stump/

[stoppy]

what style do you train in stump ..

Post private if you need to ..

Stoppy

[stump]

No problem stoppy,

I train in MMA and escrima.

I have trained in Lau Gar, TKD (itf and wtf), ju jitsu and a number of other TMAs previously, though i don't hold a black belt

[stoppy]

Black belt or not .. your words speak volumes and it is pleasure to make your aquaintence here.

[stump]

Nice of you to say so stoppy.

Feeling is mutual,

Colin

[nunchaku8587]

yeah man, i'm sorry it has to go out like that. fact of the matter is that sometimes greed does get in the way of training, but like psicop said, if i ever start a school i'd try to make the rates fair, cause you're right, there are alot of black belt factories in this day and age. it's sad too, but we gotta do our best as true martial artists of tae kwon do to change that, so i wish you luck in finding a new school and i hope it all gets better for you man

[nunchaku8587]

...nvm, i forgot to read the rest of the postings, i only read the first and replied. anyways congradulations on getting your third degree, i know how rewarding it feels. i too just got mine a few months ago (i'm15 too) maybe we should train together sometime ;)

anyway, disregard my other posting, i clearly posted too soon :(

[VillageIdiot]

Wow this is mostly old, but hey I'm okay with beating a dead horse.

1- There was a lot of peep's arguing about stuff on this thread. Funny to me, cause it really had nothing to do with tht topic of this thread.

2- The money thing..... I being a poor @$$ white boy (surviving pay cheque to pay cheque) I know the importance of money. I think the guy charging $600 bucks for testing, and changing the "free after..." rule is the extreme. But as Helm pointed out, that his master charged pennies, and look what he got back in return!!! A bunch of "wanna train so I can say I know TKD'ist." No one cared enough to try hard. I mean do I want people trianing under me (if I were more then a white belt wtf, green stripe itf) want a bunch of guys/girls saying I trained under Master VillageIdiot, and end up making me look like a chump. Where as Labatt, you paid the $600, I'm sure you are committed. But that's simply what happens when you have to pay that much. You either have a lot of money, or you are committed. Having said that, your master isn't a very good businessman. I mean I'm management at work. I've taken manager schooling. I know that for one to excel, one most think outside the box. Here's my outside the box, that it's too bad your master didn't come up with (or something like it). You're 15, and 3rd dan. I don't charge you for lessons, and/or testing in return you teach my "new childrens program." You have no problem instructing younger people, and well they are younger then you, or the same age, so they have no problem being "told what to do" by a young whipper snapper. Having agreed to this, I now have more time to teach older students, and a great older student (this being you) learning to teach....where am I going with this you ask? Well I'm glad you asked. 3-5 years down the road, you're ready to test for (if you haven't already) your 4th dan. And with all the extra money I've made off my new childrens program, I'm ready to open a new school with my name on it.....but you ask, "how can I have time to train at 2 schools?" Another good question (you are full of.... good questions). Oh wait, now I give you everything for free, tests ect. And pay you a little bit of dough, I mean we have almost 10-12 years together, I have you run one school, while I run the other, and by this time, I also have alot of other black belts (reds,black stripes, ect) to help out at each school, and after I've expanded once, it's all easy for more expansion after that. Who knows, in another ten years, we may have an entire network of schools (hopefullly not turned it into a "mcdojang").
It really is too bad that he didn't come up with an "outside the box" idea like that, or simular.

[Helm]

Well, fortunately my TKD teacher has decided to open another school in my town. Its gonna start once a week (so we can figure out how many people are coming, if the training is too hard for them, ages, abilites etc) then try and split the classes up.

Hes also decided to move to charging monthly. This is simply because people feel they have already paid for the lesson they will be more inclined to come if they dont really feel like it (well all have those days), going to have a first lesson free and have a seperate younger kids class (which i may be teaching) although we have no time for people not prepared to put in effort, for that reason the youngest kids we accept will be 8-9, we aint running any creché.

Gonna start putting up some posters and getting word around, cant wait to train again :D

[VillageIdiot]

I'm really glad to hear that Helm. I think your Master has teaching in his blood. It would've drove him as nuts not to teach, as it was seeming to drive you nuts, not having him teach. I'm glad things seem like they are gonna work out just peachy. GL

[aikijudo]

I am truly very sorry for the problems you have encountered with your training. I believe that your experience with your teacher provides a good lesson for all of us. We must always be mindful of what we choose to learn, where, and from whom.

It is an important task for an instructor to learn the goals and objectives of their students. However, do we as students ever consider the goals and objectives of our instructors?

Responsible instructors interview their students, but do we, as students, interview our instructors?

If we consider the costs involved in running a dojo, especially in a retail location, then we must realize that the cost of education will be significantly higher than a club or group organization such as with a church or YMCA. The costs of running a retail dojo are higher and therefore the needs for capital generation are higher.

Most instructors that teach through clubs, churches, or other organizations frequently donate their time for free, and don't have fiduciary agendas. It is possible to obtain education and experience without paying a lot of money.

I have also experienced a more productive and caring atmosphere at local clubs. The instructors that donate their time do this because they care about the student and their art, most generally, and I believe this to be a more nurturing atmosphere for learning self-defense. I will also disclaim this by stating that my argument is not absolute. I have faith that there are several outstanding schools and instructors in retail locations.

Increase your perception; reassess your goals and objectives; acknowledge and utilize your wisdom; and proceed with caution.

My best regards and best wishes to you.

TMW/Aikijudo Jitsu Ryu

[Radok]

Originally posted by stump
Any 15 years old boy unless genetically enhanced is going to get pummelled no matter how good they are by a normal adult male attacker in a one 2 one. A grade should have something to say about fighting ability - not just about fighting ability under a cushioning set of rules and against people of their own age.

again Labatt no offense intended and well done for your achievement. Somewhere deep down I'll bet you kept your money in your pocket though

I am also 15, and I am a brown belt. That means I will get my black belt at sixteen. To say that I will get beaten just because someone is older is rediculous. I have worked to hard for that. I am 140 pounds, and I bench 200. I spar with the adults now because teens aren't a challenge!

[stump]

I didn;t say that to offend....

but be honest and you'll find that the vast majority of male adults will be stronger than the average 16 year old boy. Exceptions will occur but they are few and far between. You won;t reach your strength or muscular peak for quite a few years....



When you reach your nineteen or twenty the age thing will become far less important and in fact will work to your advantage.

[Helm]

The vast majority of males will be stronger than females. Does having natrual strength make you any more deserving of a black belt?
Why should a beefcake guy 6"5' guy deserve a black belt more than a 5"6' woman who gives it her all?

And i know thats not what your saying, but i was 17 when i got my black belt, i could beat the 20-40 yr olds at sparring, but they'd whoop me all over the place in an arm wrestle... But the belts arnt awarded on such merits ;)

[MarioBro]

I also think the discussion about 15 year olds not being tough is rediculous. That is such a totally situational comment that it does not even deserve discussion. I have seen some 15 year old black belts who were as easy to beat as a yellow belt, but I have also gone against 15 year olds who could take my head off.

It is thinking like that which is likely to get you a good beating by a smaller or younger person, since you will assume you have the advantage...you don't always!

BTW, I am a 6'1" - 215 lb and 36 years old. I have alot of power which is a trade off to some degree for speed. I do not fear anyone, but I do respect them no matter of size or age...keeps me on my toes.

[XiaoXing]

I also think the discussion about 15 year olds not being tough is rediculous. That is such a totally situational comment that it does not even deserve discussion.
I agree 100%
It all depends on how dedicated the person and how hard they train.
Im 15..i train every single day at my tkd dojo and an extra hou at home.I keep my body in the most tip top shape,and i spar every single day after class atleast with 3 of my friends.Ive sparred kids my age or older psychically fit but not as skilled.Some of us actually love what we do
:cool:

[Andy Cap]

Wow many topics here. So, I will dive right in.

First off - there is a romantic version of the martial arts that brings the vision of a master and his student. The student does the chores and such for the master and in turn the master teaches the student martial arts.
I'm not sure exactly when this model failed, but it has been gone for a long time, and not just in the US or Europe. Why do you think there are so many different organizations and styles? Martial arts masters wanted to have their own piece of the pie. The sad truth is that if you love martial arts and want to have a school, either you live a financially poor existance or you run it like a business. I think this is true with any art form though. Consider how bastardized music has become because of money.

As for a 15 year old 3rd dan that received his 3rd dan in 8 years!! Well, I think that is just plain silly. Rank supposedly equates to development, adn development is not just physical ability. I am sure this young man is proficient in Tae Kwon Do, but he does not so the maturity. Even in this thread he has shown his short temper and reactionary nature. I started studying Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan in 1976 at the tender age of 7. I did not receive my black belt until 1982. I then had to wait a minimum of 2 years to test for 2nd dan. I waited more because I felt I had more to learn at that level. I received my 2nd dan in 1987. I then had to wait a minimum of 3 years to test for 3rd dan. I waited until 1992. I then had to wait a minimum of 4 years for 4th dan. I receivd that in 2000. Patience is a big part o development.

This young man doesn't show the patience or humility of what i would expect to see in a 3rd dan.

As far as a 15 year old defending themselves against a full grown man...when I was 14 I had to defend myself against a man that was 6'1" 235 lbs. He was a muscular man that loved fighting. He was my father's friend. Without getting into too much detail - I shattered his knee. Presence of mind is something we develop in martial arts. No, I would not stand toe to toe with this guy and prevail, but I knew that and found a weakness.

I don't propose to have any answers for our young friend, but I would say don't ever stop training. One other small suggestion - keep your ears open and mouth shut when you do find a truly good master/instructor.

my .02

[Infesticon #1]

I thought there was some forum rule about dredging up old threads?

[ninjas-r-us]

while we must relize the purpose of a buisness is to make a PROFIT...yes there jaking us

[Infrazael]

Aye, and it's not only Tae Kwon Do either.

If you've heard of these schools called Temple Kung-Fu, they are completely horrible, non-traditional, and all about money making.

Cash and greed has corrupted many styles of Martial Arts. . . . . well, we must persevere and learn our best, and perhaps one day be able to teach others what Martial Arts is truly about.

In Darkness and Chaos,

Infrazael

[Rabid Wombat]

I can understand some of the testing fees. Our instructor is what she is as a career, this is her only source of income. We are having some problems too, a lot of students quit, I've been to classes where it's just me, and most of the time, there's only five or so students (The adult class, at least). But if you can't make a payment for financial reasons, that's fine, and that's how it should be. Some people pay extra, too.

[Ad McG]

If someone charged me over the price of training plus whatever was awarded I would be pretty annoyed, never mind 600 dollars! Insanity. Just goes to show that people actually care about coloured belts.

[megk]

If someone charged me over the price of training plus whatever was awarded I would be pretty annoyed, never mind 600 dollars! Insanity. Just goes to show that people actually care about coloured belts.

First I know that this thread is pretty old but anyway...I do care about my belt ranking. I don't Lord it over people or claim superiority. I care about my rank because I have worked incredibly hard to achieve it. I need a goal and my gaol right now is a black belt. I have spent alot of money to train but I would spend alot of money to attend a gym. I train WTF TKD so I too will have to pay $300 to test for my black belt. I will also be recognized world wide for that accomplishment. I'll have about 6 months to save the money so it should be fine.

So, Yes, I care about the color of my belt. I care because it shows me how far I have come.

[Andy Cap]

I can understand some of the testing fees. Our instructor is what she is as a career, this is her only source of income. We are having some problems too, a lot of students quit, I've been to classes where it's just me, and most of the time, there's only five or so students (The adult class, at least). But if you can't make a payment for financial reasons, that's fine, and that's how it should be. Some people pay extra, too.

Rabid - I agree with you, but my concern is - where does that fee go? Usually it goes to the organization and not to the instructor. The instructor usually gets a portion of it, but not much. I used to run my own school for 13 years. We didn't charge as much as is mentioned here, but it was still $175 for black belt. Of that I received $15. It didn't matter too much to me because I ran the school out of love of the art and not to make $. I had another job to make $

[neryo_tkd]

I train WTF TKD so I too will have to pay $300 to test for my black belt.

300$? Isn't that so much more than determined by Kukkiwon?

[megk]

300$? Isn't that so much more than determined by Kukkiwon?

Not that i know of. I have talked to many others that are training at different schools and that seems to be the standard for the black belt. I will check it out though.

[neryo_tkd]

Not that i know of. I have talked to many others that are training at different schools and that seems to be the standard for the black belt. I will check it out though.


check out this thread, post no.43
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2399&page=3&pp=15&highlight=grading+price

[Andy Cap]

The WTF school I am in right now charges $600. I would be very interested to know how much of that goes to the Kukkiwon. This is for a first dan test. Does anyone know the costs charged by the Kukkiwon?

[Gizmo]

AFAIK, the Kukkiwon fee for 1st Dan is US$ 70.00. Everything above is the fee set by the school, examiner, association, whoever. 2nd Dan is US$ 90.00 and 3rd dan is US$ 120.00 - unless you are a Korean citizen, of course. Here where I live there is ca. 25 % addition to cover administrational costs, examiner travel & expenses etc.

Gizmo

[ToRNaDo LorD]

Tomorrow is supposed to be my 3rd dan testing. Our montly fee's are at 124 dollars! Testing at 600 dollars! I told him, I am not paying such an obsurd amount of money. He said " You can't test then" He even told me that I would go for free after 3rd dan, now he says NO that I will still have to pay. I stormed out, and it was over. That's it, im done, enough of this bs. I don't know, I have been 2nd dan for 3 yrs, I have 1 testing to go. If he will let me go or not, either way im done, finished. What started out wonderfully, is ending horribly. There is no way in hell im giving in and paying that amount of money.


Was it allways $124 a month? And allways $600 for testing? Well obviusly not the testing part. At my dojo, im not gonna be testing for my 2nd degree for maybe... 4 more years. But who cares about that? Well at my place its $50 a month and $30 for testing. Man that must flippin suck man! But I couldn't ever amagine of leaving my teacher. Well hope you work it all out.

~TL~

[Andy Cap]

AFAIK, the Kukkiwon fee for 1st Dan is US$ 70.00. Everything above is the fee set by the school, examiner, association, whoever. 2nd Dan is US$ 90.00 and 3rd dan is US$ 120.00 - unless you are a Korean citizen, of course. Here where I live there is ca. 25 % addition to cover administrational costs, examiner travel & expenses etc.

Gizmo


Is this a fact? Where does that info come from? I don't question you or say it isn't so, I just want to be sure it is teh real price. At any rate $600 US is just crazy IMHO.

[Gizmo]

Well, this is how much I paid for my 1st, 2nd and 3rd Dan Kukkiwon under the Polish Taekwondo Federation. These are also the prices included in the Polish Federation's grading rules. You may see the price sheet (http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/interd_eng.asp?div=5) on the Kukkiwon website as well.

Gizmo

[Andy Cap]

Gizmo - thank you much for that. A real eye openiner indeed.

[megk]

Anybody know the cost for first dan in Jidokwon(sp?) in WTF. That is what I train in and our first dan is $300. I hope I am not getting ripped off, but I think that is standard pricing.

[Gizmo]

megk: what Jidokwan association are you member of?

Gizmo

[megk]

You know what?...I don't even know. All I know is thst I train WTF and we Jidokwan. I didn't know there was more then one association. If you give me some examples I might recognize which one it is.