Karate and it place nowadays

[xplasma]

Hello all,

I recently was reading an article on the history and evoluation of NHB tournments and UFC and I came across a quote "Boxers learned how to grapple, Grapplers learned how to box, and the Karate masters learned how to stay home" then later the articles commented on how before UFC Karate and TDK masters would go around a claim to be the greatest fighters, but when UFC came around most were tapped out in less then a minute. This got me thinking about Karate as a true fighting art. Is Karate just an old useless form of fighting for the modern day or something that can be adapted for use outside the dojo? I know that where I am we do not invite the Washin Ryu Karate guys to join the NHB matches cuase we think they will get hurt and do not pocess enough practical fighting knowledge.

[mani]

I definietly do not think that this is the case.

it really irritates me when people say that karate is not a lethal art.

karate is very effective and I think there is no doubt about if karatekas would be able to compete in tournaments such as UFC.
I would also ask the question that is there anything that karatekas cant do that boxers or kickboxers can do, there is nothing special about these arts that karatekas cannot do and compete with them. I am sure there are some great fighters in Japan who train under karate and are very lethal and could easily compete in tournaments such as UFC. But they dont and this could be because of various reasons.

[xplasma]

"karate is very effective and I think there is no doubt about if karatekas would be able to compete in tournaments such as UFC"
~mani

if? Anyone is allow to sign up for MMA tournments. Who stops them from signing up?

[Mike Flanagan]

Depends on the system of karate you practice really, and how vigorously you practice it. Also bear in mind that competition, any competition including NHB, uses a set of rules and therefore favours particular techniques and strategies. It is not a true reflection of how well a particular martial art performs in a self-defence situation.

I must admit though, much karate is pants when it comes to self-defence.

Mike

[kerling]

Xplasma your talk off UFC.
The grapplers are doing very well there.
But if you pause to wonder if there always just one apponent? You get a diffrent view. If I have you one down in a lock is it any good cuz the other fella is kicking me in the head? I don't think so but I don't know about you.

One of my instructures told me: "there is no point in doing fancy movements to take out an apponent if they consume time. Because while fighting time is something you don't have. Quick effective techniqe and to the next one."

But we should train vs. one vs. many vs. no one and not for just one specific amount of apponents.

Because of this I think this is not a good question to ask.

Regards Kerling

[Andrew Green]

Karate works great... as a cultural art

Also good for people that want to say they train, but don't want to put the effort into doing it right, Black belt helps that as it gives "proof" of skill without actually having to step onto the mat and play.

Not being as effective as other options doesn't make it "bad" or that it has no place. No one ever give Tai Chi people a hard time about lack of success against others. But then Tai Chi doesn't have as many people claiming they could beat all those "Ultimate Fighters" if it weren't got the rules and the ring....

But as long as people enjoy it it will have a place.

:D

*Puts on flame proof suit*

[Terry Matthes]

I agree with Andrew 1 x 10 ^76 % (if that's possible). I mean It's one thing to practice an art and not compete, but it's a whole nother beast to hide behind your ignorace. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings here so I will say this carefully. For practical self defense some arts are better than others Lets face the facts: saying that no art is better than any other art is just being polite. If you went to a toaster convention and asked a toaster conisour what toaster he like best he would probably say "all of them are good in there own way", but every man knows a 4 slice toaster would kick a 2 slice toasters ass. Also the way one trains makes a big diffrence. Training the traditional way that we most know of; standing and doing 100 front kicks followed by 100 punches. is a waste of time. Learn how to do a move then spend the rest of your time learning how to apply it against a fully resisting opponent. I never said that other arts "sucked" or anything like that I am just giving this thread a dose of reality. As far as Karate in UFC . . . .most karate instructors have limited grappling knowledge, but if a Karateka where to learn some grappling I think he would be far better off.

PS- /me grabs his fire blankie

[YODA]

*Gasp

Terry Mathes in "I agree with Andrew" shocker!

*Gasp :D

[Andrew Green]

He has no choice ;)

[Cain]

Either you bribed him or blackmailed him.......which is it????





































:D

|Cain|

[Andrew Green]

I just choke him if he doesn't :D

[Terry Matthes]

The chokes . . . they hurt :(

[Cain]

Gee! Such a wonderful thought :D

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
He has no choice ;)


That's what I figured.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
I just choke him if he doesn't :D

You mean you choke him MORE if he doesn't?

[gojuman]

There are definitley schools of Karate that are for "sport" only and of course there are many that are based in reallity.
If you observe a "sport" Karate school you might be tempted to say that Karate would be ineffective in a real fight, but observing real Karate would show you otherwise. Katate is most definitely a fighting system capable of producing good real fighters.

[Terry Matthes]

But it's fighters usually only fight under a standard set of rules that somewhat limit the effectivness of a real fight. No one is going to follow kyokushin knockdown rules in real life. I'm not trying to bash karate, I am just saying that NHB would be much more effective test of skill.

[47Ronin]

Yeah, and no one is going to follow UFC rules in a real fight.
Not everyone in Martial Arts is looking to be UFC champion, some want to learn one set of Martial Arts and not just a mix of something with no set tradition.

[NMRD]

there is no perfect fighting style you need to know how to grapple and fight standing up i feel the optimum combination is brazilian jujitsu and thai boxing since thai boxing is the ultimate standing style karate and other styles are too open for attack

[47Ronin]

And yet alot of Thai Fighter hold their hand up high,
Let me know where Karateka are to open, please.

[SPAWNPAIN]

Grappling it is all about the floor am i wrong? it is a part of ju jutsu it is a part of a systema that has explored and enphatized by tha Gracie family becoming and art. ( well that's what i know )
But i think it is better to learn a complete systema than a part of it what happen in grappling if you are figthing against more than one guy? :o :eek: :eek:

[SPAWNPAIN]

that has BEEN ... sorry skip that word

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by SPAWNPAIN
Grappling it is all about the floor am i wrong?

You are

Grappling works standing up too

Grappling happens, unless rules are in place to prevent it, you're stuck with it.

[SPAWNPAIN]

That is new for me i guess i have to read more, thank you so much. :(

[Melanie]

I am pleased to see this thread is maintaining a light hearted aspect to it now and then. :)

Please Note:

These forum allows you to express your peronal opinions. If others do not agree with you, that's fine too, they are entitled to theirs. Where possible explain your reasons behind your personal opinion but please do not expect to convert people on this basis.

As a karateka myself I also have my own opinion but wish to remain "outside the cage" so to speak :D as a Moderator I may have a job trying to remain moderate about my own opinion.

Just thought I'd leave a gentle reminder :) This was in no way directed to anyone, its just I want to see this level of discussion/debate continue as I personally am enjoying it. :)

[stump]

<<<And yet alot of Thai Fighter hold their hand up high,
Let me know where Karateka are to open, please.>>>

Thai boxers use their legs to defend their own legs and either their knees or elbows and lower forearms to protect their bodies.

They also use boxing style bobbing and weaving to avoid strikes and counterattack. Karateka do none of the above.

Sad but true that karate as a fighting style works best against itself and poorly against others.

The best Japanese fighters do not train karate by the way...though many such as Yuki kondo begin there...they progress to other styles such as pancrase

[Mrs Owt]

I think most of you are probably right that traditional karate, practiced with purely traditional training methods is as useless as it gets in either a self-defence or sport setting, i.e, UFC or NHB style. However, that is not to say that all karate is practiced in a purely traditional way with purely traditional training methods. I would hazard to say many karateka seek out additional ranges and training methods to supplement their karate strengths therefore making all that they have learned, be it striking, clinch or grappling a potent tool. The enhanced product, which is now part of the evolution of karate, is useful and practical. Is it still karate? That is open to debate but I really think people get way too hung up on labels and will argue some points to the death just for their own ego gratification of being right rather than concerning themselves with what is actually working. If you still do kata and you can kick butt, why not call it karate?

[Adam]

Warning: This post contains a long, unpleasant rant

*sigh* I get the impression that the second you spar with people who do not wish to harm you very seriously, the "realism" of your training goes out the window. I believe the only martial art that actually teaches you how to fight 100% realistically is Ultra Violence.

UFC lovers say: MMA is the only realistic type of martial art!
they are wrong. MMAers use gloves, fight in a ring, grapple on mats and without broken bottles as weapons, gang attacks, firearms, confined spaces and the like and all MMA apart from vale tudo limits crippling attacks. Also, much MMA seems to neglect knife defense.

TMA lovers say: Karate is the only realistic fighting art!
they are wrong. They often seem to fight less than full contact, wear unrealistic clothing and award victory for less than a knockout

Neither of the two camps award victory to the guy who survives the fight by running away, talking the opponent down or sucker punching him when he isn't ready.

None of the two camps involve the adrenaline rush of being in a real fight with people wanting to hurt you even after you pass out.

None of the two camps train while drunk or under the influence

None of the two camps train in bad lighting or music so loud you can't hear someone charging you

None of the two camps train by having the sensei ambush you as soon as you walk in the dojo door.

Conclusion: If you want to train REALISTICALLY, then go to a bar and pick a lot of fights with large people and hurt them and their friends badly, using teeth, eyegouges and head stomps in the process.

Hell, attack EVERYBODY you meet and pick fights with everyone. There you have it! Realistic training for real street encounters!
So don't claim that your style is more "realistic" than another one, because true realism can only be found in true fights, not in a gym/dojo/dojang/whatever. It's like the difference between juggling billiard balls or knives - one might hurt you a little and the other might hurt you badly or kill you. You are likely to be more nervous when juggling knives if you never trained that way before.

If I was to teach people how to fight realistically, I would headbutt them right then and there and tell them to expect that from me at any time when they see me and to either knock me out, run or be hospitalized.

Rant over.

Ï'm really sorry for this rant, but this discussion in this topic is ENDLESS and never seems to produce any new points apart from the standard responses from MMA and TMA lovers.

Being able to fight is in my opinion more of a question of mentality than a question. When that mentality isn't taught or innate in a student, it doesn't matter if he trains MMA, TMA, karate, Cain-Do or Tae Bo, he will be a less effective fighter. Bad thing is, to follow my way of realistic training would leave you crippled, dead or imprisoned in a matter of weeks.

Oh, and by the way, I DO bob and weave and do shin blocks as taught in muay thai, although my standup is strictly karate.

[47Ronin]

Stump, Obviously you do not train with Karateka because almost all Dojo's now teach to keep hands up, block with shins, and bob and weave.

[Andy Murray]

Neither a demand nor a request, but a suggestion.

Seeing as this is the 'Karate' section of the forum, it'd be nice to see this discussion take place between those who practice or have practiced Karate.

If people from other arts/styles whatever then feel a need to ask questions, or discuss points raised from this thread, or indeed any other posts from 'style specific' forums, they could raise a new thread in 'General Discussion'.

At the moment too many discussions are grinding to a halt for reasons that should be obvious from some of the above posts.

Pray continue.

[Blackbeltmike00]

I laugh at the fact that some ofyou disregard karate. It's not the art that makes the fighter, it's the fighter. True, most people in karate couldnt defend themselves from a bananna but that is with most art forms. Dont sell any art short just because it isnt on ESPN or have some t

[Blackbeltmike00]

Sorry about that..

Dont sell any art short just because it isnt on ESPN or have some type of stupid trouphy that the fighter could win. I would much rather be karate then train in Boxing or Kickboxing. Hate to tell you all this... A boxer is useless if he cant use his knees because of having them kicked in with a sidekick.

It all depends on the fighter not the art and if anyone disagrees with that then they dont know as much as they think.

Now... I agree with Ronin, Stump. You obvioulsly havnet been in a Kenpo dojo lately ( or ever.)

Karate is about one thing, self improvement and if your not ready for that then grow up and go and do some more 'UFC,' fights.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Blackbeltmike00
Hate to tell you all this... A boxer is useless if he cant use his knees because of having them kicked in with a sidekick.


Have you ever sidekicked a boxer in the knees? Not as effective as you seem to think.

Kicking the knees is allowed in some full contact sports, amazing no one ever thinks to do this since its so effective :rolleyes:

[Andy Murray]

"Neither a demand nor a request, but a suggestion.

Seeing as this is the 'Karate' section of the forum, it'd be nice to see this discussion take place between those who practice or have practiced Karate.

If people from other arts/styles whatever then feel a need to ask questions, or discuss points raised from this thread, or indeed any other posts from 'style specific' forums, they could raise a new thread in 'General Discussion'.

At the moment too many discussions are grinding to a halt for reasons that should be obvious from some of the above posts.

Pray continue."



You made me repeat myself. I hate having to repeat myself :mad:

[Blackbeltmike00]

I am not talking to in the realm of 'sports.' I am talking if you put em both on the street and let them go at it. Anyone can train a sport ( kickboxing, boxing ) and be good because of the realms of the rules ( for example: no eye strikes, no groin contact, ext ext ext... ) but in the realm of the streets where there is no rules...?

[Andy Murray]

Slow down Mike, you just got here.

Give it 24 hours and look at the whole thread again mate.

[Mrs Owt]

Okay, to please Andy, I'll state that I do study karate and would like to discuss its place nowadays. I don't think karate is irrelevant or useless. Some of its training methods are antiquated and perhaps even harmful but I think most informed sensei's are addressing this and facilitating the evolution of karate into a pertinent and practical tool that can be used in todays self-defence settings. I have recently been on a tour of local dojo's looking for a place that would satisfy these exact requirements and found many that not only offered traditional karate but made a point of supplementing the basics with other styles that would cover all ranges. There are some who stick to the outmoded and erroneous belief that karate is punching air and drilling in a straight line for thousands of repetitions. I can say after my research, I found not one school of this ilk that still existed. I am sure they are out there, I just don't believe they are in the majority. This is a myth propagated by many MMA types who wish to mock and denegrate something which they don't believe. I am not knocking MMA, I study it myself, I just wish the members of the new MMA cult would stand back and see that as they bash the TMA's for being rigid and cult-like they are fostering the same sort of zealots in their own camp. An open minded attitude toward different strokes for different folks would be a welcome change.

[Andy Murray]

*Weeps* :( *sniff*

[Blackbeltmike00]

Again... It depends on the style of karate. I agree, traditional karate does not but this isnt china anymore. Lots of stuff has been mixed into different styles. Kenpo karate (Bill Packers) has a lot of kickboxing in it. I side trained in kickboxing when I was taking karate and learned a lot but I choose karate over kickboxing. Karate leaves a lot room for improvement in different strikes, blocks, ext... Not saying kickboxing does but I felt it didnt. If that makes any since?

As far as bobbing and weaving, I dont. I would rather use blocks and movement around oppenent personally...

[47Ronin]

I never said it came from Karate, but most Dojos teach this way.
As for shin blocks, Uechi Karate DID have it in it's system since the beginning.

[47Ronin]

Woops,

And it still does.

[xubis]

Originally posted by 47Ronin
And yet alot of Thai Fighter hold their hand up high
Yeah, and because of this, the guy got 5 ribs busted :D

[47Ronin]

exactly what I think Xubis.

[Kwan Jang]

-I have over the years evolved into MMA, but I really believe that TMA have tremendous value for self-defense (not to mention self-development). It should be mentioned that most trad. MA's look down at events like the UFC, not because they can't be effective in them, but because of how they are marketed and run. At least in the past, the UFC and many other NHB events were too similar to pro wrestling in their marketing and presentation. When they first came out, most of the fighters were no names who often had fictitious backgrounds and little to no skill. This image is still prevalent in the trad. MA community; that these people are just another exploitive group giving a black eye to the public's image of the martial arts.

-Most people's impression of karate is based on the "school children's art"(do), as opposed to the combat system(jitsu). The traditions of limited knowledge and exposure to the combat art except for the most dedicated and "worthy" students has really limited the growth of karate as a combat system. From my own experience, I have found the combat (jitsu) versions to be at least as effective as any other system out there. Before all the folks who Ronin talked about jumping on the NHB/MMA bandwagon with such zealotry (good points in a good post), wnat to verbally go for my juggular for saying this, keep in mind that I teach a MMA system that includes MT, Braz.JJ and NHB as part of our cirriculum. I have also trainid with some of the very best in those martial sports and been able to hold my own. I just don't think there is a need to discard the good points of TMA.

-I feel that some are right in saying for many years, many TMA did not use enough practical application in their training. Most are correcting this or already have. Also, many were always training realistically and more hardcore than many of the best MMA fighters all along. I agree that NHB has a major place in helping to evolve the arts to a higher level. Competition in the (usually low paying) sporting events of this genre are not the goals of most martial artists. I know I could not afford the pay cut to neglect my school and go out and do it. If NHB (or the K-1 events) had reached the level it's at now in it's evolution when I was in my early 20's, I would probably be out there. At nearly 40, and with an only semi-functional and often tempermental knee, I know I have no motivation to get in there.

-I agree that NHB as a form of training gives a more realistic feel. However, a few people keep repeating how more damaging techniques would not really work. I've trained quite a bit with some of the best combat people in the world as well. They do use thiese type of techniques on ops and make them work. They also pull off some things that many of the NHB fans bash as being too flashy and impractical. they aren't doing it for sport, they do it for survival on the batllefield. I classify fighting in three categories: 1)sport (with numerous sub-branches)-an athletic context where two athletes meet under specified rules to achieve an athletic victory. 2)playground fights (though this can escalate to real combat, this is most of street fighting)-whether it's little Johnny and Bobby in the second grade at the sandbox, or there fathers that night at the local bar, this is about defining dominance. Someone is trying to establish dominance (who is the alpha male) and wants to"put a whuppin' on someone". 3) real combat- while the others can escalate into this, this is when the intent is deadly. it's not about dominance or tropies, it's about survival. Someone wants to pop you to get your car or even your child. Soldiers (esp. special forces) on the battlefield. A police SWAT unit coming into an extreme tactical situaion. In these, subjects like to attack in numbers, use weapons, and they like to attack while you are blinded by your own blood. By the way, the original Okinawan combat system was originally designed for this, as were most TMA's, they were most often made more civilized and sport oriented for public consumption.

[47Ronin]

Thank you for putting your incite on this, I actually agree with a MMAist! :D

[Terry Matthes]

I would put my money on the boxer. An average boxer is probably a better fighter than the average martial artist because of they way they train.

[47Ronin]

So you are saying Martial Artists do not train as good as boxers?

[Mrs Owt]

Originally posted by Terry Matthes
I would put my money on the boxer. An average boxer is probably a better fighter than the average martial artist because of they way they train.

I think this is a very broad statement and would like to see a little more evidence that the boxer's training is superior to the MA's training. If you are talking about people training for the same reasons,i.e. professional or even amateur competition, I doubt that the boxer is training any more effectively than the karateka. If you are comparing someone who is training is their primary occupation, like an elite level boxer or professional boxer against Joe Average at the local strip mall MA Academy you may be right.

[Adam]

I sparred a guy from my local boxing gym once. he had been boxing longer than I had been doing karate. He had nothing on me because of my better conditioning and power. What does this tell us? I guess it tells us that karate is better than boxing then?

No, it tells us I was simply better at martial arts than that particular boxer AT THAT TIME, it had nothing to do with style of standup fighting.

I pray to god that no more of those silly threads will start. They never seem to go anywhere and nobody ever seem to change their mind about anything.

[stump]

Look at it statistically.

Get 100 boxers and match them against 100 karateka of similiar training time.

Which of the two groups will produce the majority of winners?

Again my money is on the boxers!!:)

Adam I know style isnt everything but if it has nothing to do with style then why do representatives of some arts just keep on winning in limited rules combat? :)

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by stump
Look at it statistically.

Get 100 boxers and match them against 100 karateka of similiar training time.

Which of the two groups will produce the majority of winners?

Again my money is on the boxers!!:)


As a karateka who also trains in other systems.....

I'm not going to be drawn into saying who'd win here but lets look at some of the pros and cons of each art (making some gross generalisations).


The karatekas would not be all that good at evading/blocking the boxers punches - especially hooks and uppercuts
The boxers would not be all that good at evading/blocking the karatekas kicks
The karatekas would not punch as hard as the boxers
The boxers would stand greater chance of damaging their fists/wrists when not wearing their padded gloves


and so on and so on.

The point is that each activity is appropriate for the competition rules which govern that particular sport. Neither are self-defence, although both have pros and cons when considering them as methods of self-defence training.

I agree with the gist of Kwan Jang's last post. Good post, Kwan.

Mike

[shotokanwarrior]

Originally posted by Adam
Warning: This post contains a long, unpleasant rant

*sigh* I get the impression that the second you spar with people who do not wish to harm you very seriously, the "realism" of your training goes out the window. I believe the only martial art that actually teaches you how to fight 100% realistically is Ultra Violence.

UFC lovers say: MMA is the only realistic type of martial art!
they are wrong. MMAers use gloves, fight in a ring, grapple on mats and without broken bottles as weapons, gang attacks, firearms, confined spaces and the like and all MMA apart from vale tudo limits crippling attacks. Also, much MMA seems to neglect knife defense.

TMA lovers say: Karate is the only realistic fighting art!
they are wrong. They often seem to fight less than full contact, wear unrealistic clothing and award victory for less than a knockout

Neither of the two camps award victory to the guy who survives the fight by running away, talking the opponent down or sucker punching him when he isn't ready.

None of the two camps involve the adrenaline rush of being in a real fight with people wanting to hurt you even after you pass out.

None of the two camps train while drunk or under the influence

None of the two camps train in bad lighting or music so loud you can't hear someone charging you

None of the two camps train by having the sensei ambush you as soon as you walk in the dojo door.

Conclusion: If you want to train REALISTICALLY, then go to a bar and pick a lot of fights with large people and hurt them and their friends badly, using teeth, eyegouges and head stomps in the process.

Hell, attack EVERYBODY you meet and pick fights with everyone. There you have it! Realistic training for real street encounters!
So don't claim that your style is more "realistic" than another one, because true realism can only be found in true fights, not in a gym/dojo/dojang/whatever. It's like the difference between juggling billiard balls or knives - one might hurt you a little and the other might hurt you badly or kill you. You are likely to be more nervous when juggling knives if you never trained that way before.

If I was to teach people how to fight realistically, I would headbutt them right then and there and tell them to expect that from me at any time when they see me and to either knock me out, run or be hospitalized.

Rant over.

Ï'm really sorry for this rant, but this discussion in this topic is ENDLESS and never seems to produce any new points apart from the standard responses from MMA and TMA lovers.

Being able to fight is in my opinion more of a question of mentality than a question. When that mentality isn't taught or innate in a student, it doesn't matter if he trains MMA, TMA, karate, Cain-Do or Tae Bo, he will be a less effective fighter. Bad thing is, to follow my way of realistic training would leave you crippled, dead or imprisoned in a matter of weeks.

Oh, and by the way, I DO bob and weave and do shin blocks as taught in muay thai, although my standup is strictly karate.



hello. shotokanwarrior here with arguments to refute all that rubbish.
1. You say, 'Attack everyone you meet and pick fights with everyone. ' Many should not suffer for the good of one. Even if the only way to learn to fight was as you say, to attack everyone, you have no right. Anyway that's not self defense, that's bullying.
2. You say 'neither award victory to the fighter who survives by running away. ' A tournament is not about survival, it is not meant to be like a real situation where you ARE fighting for your life, it is not meant to be realistic. It is about having a trial of skill with fellow martial artists who you can learn from. It is NOT about kicking ass + doing damage.
3. You say that 'neither involve the adrenaline rush of a real fight'. I thought the idea of martial arts training was that you don't have an 'adrenaline rush', that you learn to detach from adverse emotion.
4. You say 'none of the two camps train by having the sensei ambush you as soon as you walk through the dojo door. ' What the hell is that supposed to mean?
5. 'Talking the opponent down' is unrealistic. What if they decide not to listen and just kill you? what if they're too drunk to listen?
6. You mentioned firearms. There is a limit to a martial artist's skill. No one has the reflexes to block or evade a bullet.
7. the idea of teaching people to fight realistically is that they DON'T suffer severe injury from an assailant. If you headbutt someone, it's unlikely to occur to them that maybe this guy is trying to teach them self defense.
8. You say that your way of training would leave people dead or imrisoned. That rather defeats the object of self defense training.
P.S. Some people do have the dexterity to juggle knives without beng hurt.

[Knight_Errant]

shotokanwarrior, I don't think he meant that he was actually intending on putting his plan into action :D
Incidentally:
who here feels that many people lend far, far too much credit to 'street fights'? I do.
The vast majority of criminals are deeply sad people. They are not the fast, effective fighters that many imagine. If they were, they would have given up the night job long ago.
The whole POINT of martial arts is to prepare you better for a fight. If you train hard and acquire any real fighting skill, then this puts you in a better position. The difference between reality and training is that the other person actually wants to hurt you and will, unless you prevent him, do so. But this does not make him into a superhuman. He still throws punches like your training partner does (or maybe not as well- even better :))You can take him down in exactly the same way- and his face still breaks if you hit it hard enough.

[Adam]

What ARE you talking about? The plan is in progress! Just today I assaulted two old ladies coming out of the supermarket and went to a kindergarten and kicked the ass of an ENTIRE CLASS! They obviously were not training in a REALISTIC way! And I am still undefeated, which proves my point: Ultra-violence is the best martial art!

All silliness aside, KE has a point and you missed it entirely. The post is meant as a rant on the humongous retardedness of the whole "my style is more realistic than yours" debate, since if you train with people who have no intention of hurting you badly, your "realism" does not exist, even for the people who claim they do train "realistically". Let's forget "realism" in martial arts, it's a stupid word used to market yourself IMO. That's not to be said that martial arts doesn't make you a better fighter or that TMA makes you a better fighter than MMA, the concept of "realistic" training just annoys the hell out of me.
Make sense now?

[Knight_Errant]

yeah, I know what you mean:D too many kindergarten kids just fight like bitches :D

[Terry Matthes]

So you are saying Martial Artists do not train as good as boxers? Yes, when your are looking at the self defense aspect of the art I belive an average boxer trains with more practicality then an anverage Martial Artist. Keep in mind that this statment was not directed at you Ronin or anyone else.

[Adam]

Oh no! I had been praying for this dim thread to stay dead, but then somebody comes along and digs it out! Thanks a lot :(

[47Ronin]

Just lock this thread already, I don't want to argue anymore.

[Terry Matthes]

lol where's the fun in that ?

[liero]

As a karateka who also trains in other systems.....

The point is that each activity is appropriate for the competition rules which govern that particular sport. Neither are self-defence, although both have pros and cons when considering them as methods of self-defence training.

Mike

This is my opinion! I have trained in boxing for several months and was was VERY impressed with what I saw. They train just for contact fighting. However they can only use their hands...
when i was training in boxing there was a sparring session when my sensei said, ok just hands. I was up against a very good black belt and thought YES! IVE GOT THE ADVANTAGE...I was swiftly defeated.
In the TKD training I have just started, they use many modern training principles, heavy bags, focus pads for kicks and punches...and this makes the training more effective. However, the system is limited by the TKD rules system which makes punching almost completly inneffective.

Even though I train in other styles i still consider myself almost completly a karate-ka. A decent karate school has very good training, with very open rules in kumite. When i went to train with the 5th dan head instructor of Aus(Go Ju Kai Sewakai) I started of well, scoring good kicks. The guy then proceeded to kick me several times in the groin. not hard enough to drop me, but it hurt. following this he pulled me into a MT style clinch and kneed me in the solar plexus; again without dropping me but enough to know it hurt. his leg kicks were also spectacular and he threw elbows that had they connected wouldve done serious damage. following the session he said "sometimes the quick young guys start to score on me so i kick them in the groin a few times to slow them down," dizzy from pain and dehydration I just laughed. the real pro i find in karate is the reality based striking system but also that before you are allowed to get to that stage of fighting you are taught control so that you dont hurt the other person.

However we also do training for full contact and conditioning, such as standing in stance and have a similar sized person throw punches at the mid-section to condition one for taking hits.

I know some karate schools are just sport based or are basically Bull Sh!t, but, like any style if you find a decent insrtuctor and you are serious about training it can be very effective. Though granted, there are weaknesses as well, but they are necessary to keep the attitude that all ages, skill levels and both males and females can all train safely togeather...And i dont see too many females or kids or people with serious permanent injuries training in full contact MMA.

[TheWaterMargins]

<<<And yet alot of Thai Fighter hold their hand up high,
Let me know where Karateka are to open, please.>>>

Thai boxers use their legs to defend their own legs and either their knees or elbows and lower forearms to protect their bodies.

They also use boxing style bobbing and weaving to avoid strikes and counterattack. Karateka do none of the above.

Sad but true that karate as a fighting style works best against itself and poorly against others.

The best Japanese fighters do not train karate by the way...though many such as Yuki kondo begin there...they progress to other styles such as pancrase

Is this sport you're talking about or just fighting in general???? Might be the case in MMA competitions? But as sport karate doesn't really reflect applied karate you must admit that is a sweeping statement to label ALL karateka with!!!!

As for the bobbing and weaving bit ..... the fromal exercises of tai sabaki teach body movement and evasion, which my instructors certainly apply to become bobbing and weaving.... Like everything ----- what you see entirely depends on what you look at!!!!

[TheWaterMargins]

Look at it statistically.

Get 100 boxers and match them against 100 karateka of similiar training time.

Which of the two groups will produce the majority of winners?

Again my money is on the boxers!!:)

Adam I know style isnt everything but if it has nothing to do with style then why do representatives of some arts just keep on winning in limited rules combat? :)

Depends on the rules eh!!!