PDA

View Full Version : Steve Morris article on karate and fascism


mani
14-May-2005, 05:11 PM
This is actually a response Steve Morris gave to a letter by someone on his website (www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk) I would recommend everyone to read this wether or not they do karate.

Dear Trish/Steve,

I've just read your latest update on the site and thought I would post some feedback, after all it's what the site is all about.

I've read and heard much about Steve from your websites since 1999 and anecdotal evidence from various people who've trained with Steve in the past. Some of those I've spoken to had been relatively long term students at a time when training in Gis was the order of the day. To a man, not one of them has said anything negative about Steve's skills, knowledge or ability. I've only trained at Horsham once, and to be frank it was out of curiousity and the idea of 'visiting Mecca' that inspired me to come along, and in truth I thoroughly enjoyed the day.

However, like most things in life it's not winning the argument that's important, it's convincing everybody to follow you with that argument that's the battle. Steve's own words have mentioned his lacking in interpersonal skills, I couldn't comment as I've only seen him for an afternoon, but clearly this would seem to be a deciding factor in the poor response you have via the website - Though I guess slagging everybody in the M.arts community and now attacking the MMA lot hasn't helped to encourage new trainees to sign up.

For the majority of the rest of us life is not all about being able to beat the crap out of somebody. Practising combat exercises, whether it's Karate, boxing, judo, Muay Thai etc., is supplementary to our lifestyle, not a prerequisite to living.

From a personal point, I continue to train in Goju. At 46yrs old I enjoy the physicality of the workout, learning some basic combat skills, and having a little more confidence that I have 'something' as a fallback should the ***** hit the fan - If I was obsessively worried about my physical safety I'd be carrying a gun.

Many people enjoy training for a variety of reasons, but for the mainstream I suspect the majority train so they don't have to fight, not in anticipation of expecting to.

With kindest regards,

Paul Norris

This letter was received in January, I think. We didn't reply because, despite his kind regards, we thought Mr. Norris had missed the point, yet it wasn't worth going into how or why. Then we got the following letter from him:

There are busloads of people out here who are involved in the 'homogenised' practice of Karate, Kung fu etc. How does Steve feel about holding a combined Q&A and/or combat/demonstration session for some of us pyjama-clad drones? I'm sure there are many, like me, who pop into your site who are still interested in what Steve has to say, regardless of his dislike of the Karate community.

Steve's anecdotes, knowledge and ability would provide a great insight into some of the more recent history, facts, fiction and ********e, and maybe 'rattle the cage' of a few of the so called puritans.

I haven't done the donkey work yet, but I bet a pound to a penny that with a bit of effort I could find a healthy interest from the masses, and I'm sure a few would be pleasantly surprised at your refreshing honesty.

Steve didn't want to respond to this at all, but I guess I egged him on a bit because I thought that Paul Norris's sentiments were probably typical of the thinking of quite a few people. I came from a karate background, too, and there was a lot of stuff I had never thought about until Steve pointed it out to me. I have nothing personal against Paul Norris and he has gone to pains to be polite to us, but I can't help it if he has stepped in it here. This is Steve's reply. It's long, but that's because Steve wanted to put things in their proper context, so please stick with it to the end. I hope it will be food for thought.--Trish

Mr. Norris, let me give you a few reasons why I believe karate's practices and its masters aren't worth a bucket of warm piss, and why I also believe that trying to convince you and others of that simple fact would be a complete waste of time.

In 1970 I returned from Japan with a third dan from Yamaguchi Gojukai and taught at George Chew's Vauxhall judo club. Chew had promised me £200 a week, but only gave me £15, and the £15 wasn't even his, as I was later to find out from Bob Ashing, who had collected that money to support my training in Japan, though it never reached me. Chew later sacked me for vengefully reducing his club from around 200 members to about a dedicated five. I was naturally aggrieved and already disillusioned with karate from my experience of Bob Bolton and Steve Arneil's lack of ability, as well as that of Yamaguchi Gogen, who I'd believed was the real deal, just as I mistakenly believed of Mas Oyama—but he turned out to be overhyped, just like all the other karate masters I'd seen in Japan and Okinawa. Yamaguchi's claims of killing tigers, like Oyama's claims of killing bulls, were total ********. What you have to understand, Mr. Norris, is that before ever practicing karate, I had the example of my father imprinted in my mind. He was a member of the Army Physical Training Corps Tough Tactics team during the war and trained the Gurkha troops for jungle warfare during the Malay bandit campaign of the early 1950s. These karate guys didn't even come close. Not only were their physical abilities merely mediocre, but their technical knowledge was even less, and the practices were simply not challenging. When I went to Japan I brought a notebook full of questions I wanted to ask the masters, and not one of them got answered. It was my disillusionment with their replies that I went to Okinawa in hope of finding something better, but ended up finding something equally lame, yet with a different spin.

After my sacking, I attempted to run a club over in Surrey Docks with Brian Waites, whom I had trained, along with Gary Spiers, whilst they were in Japan. The club fell through. It was then—1970—that I quit karate and returned to work on the building sites. Then, during this period, by chance I met Joseph Cheng in Chinatown. We hit it off and I began training in Wing Chun under him. It was through Joseph, who was from Fujien, that I began to realise the Fujien connection with Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu. This connection renewed my interest in the possibility of re-introducing the essentials that had been removed from karate's practices from around the turn of the twentieth century for indoctrinational purposes. In 1971 I was offered the opportunity to open the Earlham Street gym, and there I continued my extensive research into a connection between Goju-ryu/Uechi-ryu and the White Crane systems, Tiger, Five Ancestor, Emperor Fist and other Fujien systems that was at that time obscure (even Bruce Frantzis disagreed with me when I asserted it, only to admit I was right years later in an interview with Simon Lailey). Even though I quit karate officially in 1973 and relinquished my 5th Dan and Renshi title for political reasons, I continued my research with the assistance of Yap Leong, Five Ancestor and Emperor Fist practitioner, until 1993, when I visited Fujien and interviewed a number of masters. Long before then I'd realized that karate is as empty as the characters of its name imply. Li Yu Duan, the chairmen at that time of the Fuzhou Wu Shu Association, and several leading boxing masters, all said that karate had 'no essentials'. It had no substance.

Through all this research, about which there is more in my autobiography, I'd managed to put the tiger back in the skin. I thought I was doing a service for karate. But when I tried to convince the karate establishment, both by my rationale and by the practical demonstration of it, that they needed to understand what was essential not only to movement itself, but to strategies and tactics (all of which was missing from the school and military curricula that had been handed down to them since the turn of the 20th century) the response was weak. Most ignored me, dismissing me as a heretic. Some showed a certain lukewarm 'curiosity' at first. But that didn't last long, probably because what I was proposing to do to karate was diametrically opposite to everything they'd ever practiced or believed.

When I put it to several influential figures within British karate, such as Terry O'Neill and Dave Hazzard (who were members of the upper echelons, not to even mention the hundreds I spoke to who were below them), they were impressed with my breakdown of the internal and external factors pertinent to a realistic exchange (this is all aside from my physical abilities). After visiting my dojo in Horsham and seeing what I could do, Hazzard even went so far as to say that his training in Japan had been a waste of time. But when I put it to them that if they wanted to achieve similar abilities and understanding of the martial arts they were practicing and teaching they had to change their ways, O'Neill said that making a living was far more important, whilst when I suggested to Hazzard during a telephone conversation that I should be the technical advisor of his association, he hung up.

In other words, whatever I've got to say about karate, it wouldn't matter a monkey's toss. Nobody's going to listen and take steps to rectify it. They are either making a living, or their egos are too invested. They're not going to turn round and tell their students that what they've been practicing for the last 10, 15, 20 years is complete ******** because every one of them would walk out the door. And the truth about that is, those people who are practicing karate love the ********, so if you took it away, they wouldn't be interested.

I'm only interested in those people who have made that same realisation, as I did 35 years ago, that karate's training methods are not effective ways of preparing for a realistic exchange. That doesn't mean that all people within karate can't fight. Sure, some of them can. But they could fight a damn sight better if they took on more realistic ways of training.

That's why at the 9 Earlham Street club I instigated full-contact fighting, of which people like Pat O'Keefe and Vince Jauncey (as well as a number of other kickboxers and Muay Thai fighters) were later to be benefactees. As I got deeper into the program, I started to realise through the standup and groundwork that was evolving within the club at the time that there was something dramatically wrong with the martial arts as they were being perceived in 1973, full stop. The side-stance, backfist ******** was totally useless against somebody who was intent on fighting you, not pissing around in a ring. Again, that doesn''t mean that those people who adopted those methods couldn't fight, it's just that they could have got the job done much quicker and far easier if they'd adopted sound fighting methods, which, again, I was trying to introduce without any success other than within my immediate circle. In 1973 there were no videos, there were no Pride/UFC or any such animal whatsoever. People in those days really couldn't be blamed for walking into a dojo and swallowing ********.

But nowadays, it's a totally different world. If people are still doing karate and the like, even knowing what's happened to the traditionalists in the ring and in the cage, then they obviously want all the Oriental trappings, the grades, the death-touches, and the whole circus act.

Whatever I do, I approach it from every conceivable angle, and everything has to be realistically tested on the mat, on the street, etc. In those angles of approach I include research of various types. I suspected from translations I had from Chinese literature, from pentjak silat guys I'd seen come into Earlham Street, and the wing chun, yung chun, tiger, and crane stylists who came into the gym, that there was something inherently important within what they were practicing that the karate people were failing to identify. And that's when I began my research of the Fujien systems. What was revealed was that there were fighting concepts and principles and movement principles which were vitally important to combat but had not only been misrepresented in many of the Chinese systems because many no longer had a testing base of fighting itself, but also had been dramatically either misrepresented within karate, or completely removed during the early 20th century in its emperor militaristic and fascistic ideologies. I realized that it was these 'essential ingredients', (as Yap Ching Hai, a prominent Five Ancestor and Emperor Fist boxer and teacher of Yap Leong, characterized them) that were missing from karate. If karate was no longer to remain an empty skin, these essential ingredients needed to be put back in. I succeeded in doing that for myself and I created what could have been a more viable system of Goju-ryu and Uechi-Ryu that I could have passed on, and in the process I also comprehended those essentials such that I could have passed them on to anyone who wanted to do the same to personalize and redefine their system for the better. But I completely failed in convincing the karate establishment in private conversations, on seminars, and in my personal gymnasium in Horsham to take on board what I was saying.

There is only one exception to this, who was Richard La Plante. He observed me along with Terry O'Neill, and said that I'd peeled the onion. He even put it to O'Neill that I was more worthy of attention than O'Neill's flavour of the month at the time, Morio Higoanna. O'Neill was reluctant to admit this at first, but finally admitted that I was. But nothing came of it. Sure, O'Neill wrote brief endorsements of my ability and technical knowledge, but he never did anything for me anywhere near to what he did to publicize Higoanna. Because what I did, bucked the system. What Higoanna did, supported it.

I've been labelled a 'legend' by the karate establishment, and I've had more excessive praise written about my abilities than anyone else I know of. Over thirty years after quitting karate, I'm still seeing my name come up on karate forums—but these people who issue the praise and use my name just don't listen to what I have to say about karate.. David Mitchell, the former chairman of the BKCC, said that in his travels he'd never seen anybody better. Has this kind of endorsement done me any good whatsoever? No. Karate doesn't want or intend to change, and as long as it remains unchallenged in a realistic environment, it has no reason to.

I wasted ****ing 30 years on you lot. I don't intend to waste any more.

What I practice is not to provide a conversation piece over a pint of beer after training or to satisfy 'curiosity'. It's for real. I want people who love to fight and who can give that primal drive a positive direction. And as far as people who practice combat exercises recreationally goes: you mention judo, Muay Thai, and boxing in the same breath as karate. But the former are legitimate combative sports. Karate isn't. Skills in those combative sports do translate well on to the street; with some thoughtful adaptation, these skills also work well in MMA, which is the closest sporting representation of real fighting. You can't say the same for karate. In fact, with the advent of MMA, I would have expected karate to take an interest in sorting itself out. But what has it done? It's stuck its head further up its own arse. The last time I watched the Paris Festival of Martial Arts, it had become an even more exaggerated parody of itself than it had been before—and that's saying something.

And there seems to be a perception amongst many martial artists, both within karate and outside of it, that I'm just a bad-tempered, bitter individual who 'slags off' the martial arts. Let's clear this up.

With respect to MMA, the criticisms I have made on this site could scarcely be called 'slagging off' and I take offence at the use of that term. I have often said that MMA is potentially the greatest combative sport and there are some superb athletes among its ranks, but that doesn't mean that everyone who trains in it at all levels is living up to that potential. Unfortunately they aren't, as I learned recently when a prominent professional MMA fighter dissed me during a course I was holding. I had to take the guy out, and it was easy, even though I'm 61 and he's in his thirties. I cannot understand why I don't get the respect that guys with far less ability than myself receive having done a fraction of what I've done in my life. There's a lot to be learnt in the martial arts, and I'm one of those guys who has set out to learn it. With the MMA, I calls 'em like I sees 'em, and my judgements are informed by forty years of reality-based combative experience. And my criticisms are corrective in nature. I'm trying to provide good information and I'd like to see people take it and run with it.

The reason why I am committed the way I am to what I do is because I'm a professional martial artist. This is my life. This is what I do. I'm not teaching you Ninja Turtles, or something to let you have fun, or make you happy. I'm teaching you something you can fight with, whether it's on the street or in the arena. That's my job, as it's been the job of martial arts trainers of the West and the East for thousands of years. And I doubt if their interpersonal skills were that great, either! But unfortunately, now, unlike then, people have the opt-out clause. In the past, trainers earned their livings based on their abilities to fight and to teach others. Now, you've got an easy option. You can go and gain all the regalia for giving the illusion of fighting without ever having fought in your life. And you can make a living teaching others to do the same. If fighting were medicine, most current martial artits teachers would be quacks. And as a legitimate 'doctor', I find that offensive. It takes away my living and erodes at my own credibility. I read recently on a MMA forum that my claims as to my abilities are 'just like what you read in the back pages of Martial Arts Illustrated'. People can't tell the hype from the reality. I actually have to justify my position because there are so many false claims of superhuman abilities that go unchecked. I know this well, because when I saw Mas Oyama's 'This is Karate' at the age of 17, I set about performing the breaks that are pictured there. I broke bricks, took the tops off bottles, broke 3 cement paving stones with no spacers—whatever. Then I found out from Brian Fitkin that all those photographs had been faked! Indeed, when Oyama had his first knock-down tournament in Tokyo, it was all a fix. Oyama couldn't even take the top off the bottle and eventually ended up smashing it into the table with his hand.

As for the rest outside the MMA, I've got serious grievances with individuals within karate who completely misled me, and in whom I'd put my trust. With regard to the technical aspects, my criticisms were always constructive and intended to correct problems—and when it comes to traditional karate's movement and training methods, there are a lot of those. But my most serious differences with karate are in the moral and ethical area. The martial arts in general is a dirty business. People get ripped off right and left, you've got 'masters' making money hand over fist through dojo fees, grading, insurance, books, videos, courses—all in support of a product that is the equivalent of a Robin Reliant sold at Rolls Royce prices. Morally speaking, in my 40 years of observing these things, I've known of some real scumbags, some of whom are at the top of the hierarchy, whose station seemed to protect them from any accountability with regard to their sexual misconduct, their brutalization of students, and similar corruption.

Karate has no reality-based ways by which to test the combative effectiveness of its training and fighting methods, concepts and principles, etc. Its only claim to being combatively effective is by way of choreographed displays, dropping some overcompliant stooge with some specialized strike, breaking prepared materials in sheer, playing a game of tag (i.e., competitions), or anecdotal evidence. Therefore, karate provides a suitable niche for those who have realised that they haven't the character to put themselves in situations (whether in training or in competition), in which there is every possibility that they will receive a battering, win or lose. However, they have nevertheless also realised that they can create the illusion of being combatively effective without ever having to fight, simply by way of achieving a high grade or title, acquiring 'deadly secret knowledge' of anatomical weaknesses and the various ways to attack them, etc. Karate also harbours those who, as they rise through the ranks, realise that they can use their seniority to intimidate and physically abuse those they know haven't the ability or psychological strength to fight back, or who submit out of some misguided respect or belief that the beatings they receive are part of their dojo initiation.

It came as no surprise to me when Googling 'karate war crimes' to find numerous examples of karate being used by trained individuals on prisoners of war in Bosnia, Afganistan, and Iraq, as well as against political prisoners around the world. Based upon my observations and research over the years, there seems to be some evidence to suggest that rather than those who love to fight against those who love to fight being the ones who are psychologically flawed, it is more likely to be those who can't fight but wish they could who have a screw loose and will brutalize the defenceless if given half a chance, out of their sense of their own inadequacy and frustration. This phenomenon is nowhere better exemplified than in the Asia Pacific War of 1937-1945 when defenceless civilians and Allied prisoners across Southeast Asia were used to test sword techniques, punches and kicks during the process of their execution. Interestingly, despite karate's claims as to the lethalness of its strikes, it was seen that those who were punched and kicked with their hands bound, had to be finished off with a sword.

These crimes were committed by people who saw themselves as samurai in the service of their emperor. But had they ever had met a real samurai, they would have **** themselves. The bottom line, Mr. Norris, is that karate only seems to work against those who haven't the ability or the balls to fight back—or against those who are also practicing karate. It doesn't work against those who can fight, or even against those who might not be trained but who will put up a good fight anyway.

I remember reading somewhere once that the proof of karate's effectiveness could be seen in the injuries that are occasionally sustained in karate competition. Such injuries, however, would never occur against someone who knew how to fight, because not only would he be taking into account trying to effectively hit his opponent, but also taking into account his defence. The objective, within karate competition, is to see who can hit the other guy first, with no thought of defence. And subsequently, when you get two guys rushing towards each other trying to do that at the same time, you're inevitably going to end up with an injury. It's not proof of anything except ineptitude.

The funniest thing I ever heard with regards to karate's effectiveness was when a commentator for the K1's said that the reason why karate isn't performed in K1 is because it's too dangerous. If you believe that, you'll believe anything.

Coming back to the question of my many grievances with karate, there is the larger issue of fascism within the martial arts establishment. It's no accident that fascists are attracted to karate, because karate was formed during the fascistic era and has its roots in Japan's ultranationalistic, fascist ideologies. The hierarchial structure lends itself to those who like to exploit, and to those who don't mind being exploited in the name of the 'greater good'. I, like many people, found the treatment of Rodney King to be deplorable, but I know of some within the upper ranks of karate who'd got off on it and were big fans of the LAPD, not to mention racists. I want no association with these kinds of people.

Your perception of karate seems to be of a 'pyjama-clad majority' engaging in lukewarm recreational practices. But my perception is based upon my firsthand experience of both karate and the Japanese and Okinawans who dominate it, as well as my research into the crimes against peace and humanity committed by the Japanese during the Asian Pacific War 1937-1945. And I believe that not only is karate ineffective as a fighting system but that it is inextricably entwined with ideologies that are far more insidious.

Had I known in the mid-sixties what I now know through my research into the war crimes committed by the Japanese during the Manchurian occupation and Asian-Pacific War, I never would have gone near the Kyo Kushinkai dojo of Bob Bolton and Steve Arneil in the mid-Sixties, let alone travelled to Japan and enrolled in the Nipori dojo of Yamaguchi Gogen. What I learned about the political activists, spies, military personnel and guards implicated in these crimes and their connections to the martial arts establishment (which persist even to this day) I felt that I had been drawn into a relationship with people that I never would have gone near had I known what their associations were.

The whole of the upper hierarchy of the Japanese martial arts at the time I was training in karate was nothing more than a remnant of those very institutions that had been created to support a campaign of world domination by the Emperor, military leaders and the Japanese government of that time. Unlike in Germany, where the institutions supporting the Third Reich were completely dismantled and a program of re-education and awareness of the crimes committed against humanity was implemented after the war, in Japan the same Old Boys network resumed its activities, sometimes after its members served a brief prison stay, and the culture was never forced to confront its own past behavior. And this holds particularly true for the martial arts, which seem to remain frozen in time. Sasakawa Ryoichi, jailed as a suspected Class A war criminal, provided his private militia to Kodama Yoshio to help in the looting of Southeast Asia and the opium trade from the 1930s until the end of WWII. After the war, Kodama became head of the Yakuza. Both Sasakawa and Kodama recruited and organized martial arts groups to become strike-breakers and to attack union leaders and left-wing intellectuals, and to break up socialist meetings. Sasakawa became a billionaire through various shady deals (including involvement in the recovery of Yamashita's gold). His associations with the CIA combined with his vast fortune enabled him to whitewash his record by becoming a philanthropist (he was actually seeking a Nobel Peace Prize when he died). Yet he also claimed to have a massive private army of martial artists, which is not too far-out considering that he also held prominent positions within numerous martial arts associations, themselves often headed by right-wing ultranationalists. Some of these organizations he used as a front for his ultra-right wing and criminal underworld activities right up until his death in 1995.(1)

And don't get me started when it comes to kids and karate. An adult has a choice, but kids are impressionable. The idea that a kid is taken to a karate class to develop character and discipline is obscene. The character and discipline that we're talking about with karate led the Japanese during their occupation of Manchuria in 1931 and the Asia-Pacific War from 1937-1945 to commit some of the most heinous crimes ever committed in war, all in the name of an emperor and instilled through 'budo'. The tenets that proclaimed the superiority of the Japanese way, which still exist today, were instilled in the youth of Japan through budo practices. (And those who were indoctrinated into this ideology were to become the masters of postwar Japan who are still idolized today in the West.) In fact, karate itself was nothing more than one of the instruments by which this indoctrination was to take place. And that's probably why its combative elements were removed. They weren't needed in modern warfare. Karate was all about discipline and blind obedience to one's superiors. It created the illusion in the mind of the participant that he was a samurai, a warrior in the service of his emperor. A real samurai would have been sick at the whole business. This blind obedience, and the Japanese belief in their emperor's divinity and their superiority as a people, led to a mindset that caused Japanese soldiers to toss babies in the air and catch them on bayonets just for fun. And Westerners blithely send their kids to learn karate.

I suppose the other thing you have to understand about this website is that when I'm writing I often have somebody specific in my mind. I'm not saying that everybody in karate is into fascistic, militaristic ********. I've met some good guys along the way. But my experience has been one where those with this fascistic, bureaucratic mindset have dominated the agenda, and I can only go on that. With me, everything is personal. And the depth of my resentment is a measure of the depth of my effort to convince the karate establishment that they were going the wrong way. My sincere efforts have been repayed by duplicity on the part of certain individuals, and stonewalling on the part of others. I'm just not going to subject myself to any more of it.

What surprises me is that we still get this type of letter, when it's quite clear from the site what my feelings are and why. As far as your request is concerned, I've been on the karate seminar circuit. It was a complete waste of ****ing time. It wouldn't make any difference if I took off and flew around the room; they'd still go back to their masters. People see what they want to see and they hear what they want to hear. That's deep-rooted within their psyche; I'm not going to change it.

And I'm not interested in guys who do karate. It's a world of illusion. My obsession with fighting and training isn't because I feel 'worried about my physical safety', but because ever since I can remember I've loved to fight and engage in challenging and punishing workouts. My fighting and training philosophy has nothing to do with self-defence, but everything to do with being able to rise to the challenge of my next fight against an opponent I have assumed is mentally, physically and technically preparing for his next fight with the same single-minded intensity that I do. That's why I'm a great believer in having a solid grounding in the fundamentals, the essentials if you like, and in remaining current. That's a requirement I was unable to fulfill whilst training in and teaching traditional karate. The blueprint of karate's fundamental fighting and training principles and concepts was flawed. Any attempt on my part to adapt them to realistic fighting scenarios involved a radical departure from everything about karate that is recognizable, to the point where the methods I was advocating no longer were karate. As I've said elsewhere, I put far more into my Sanchin than I ever got out of it.

And in the end, it seems to be the trappings, and not the essence, that attract people to karate. That and the idea that you can train so that you won't have to fight. But that idea in martial arts philosophy of training to transcend aggression comes out of the need of the experienced warrior to eventually sublimate his aggressive drives towards nobler goals. However, historically, the real warrior had to do this because he was basically a ****ing psychotic killer who needed to live in society after the battle was over. The practices and concepts that derived from this process of directing the aggressive drives were specific to that warrior. In the bujutsu systems the objective was killing; in the budo systems, the objective, essentially, was to redirect these drives toward nobler goals; but in the shin budo systems (the modern disciplines) the purpose was to redirect the same drives and energies towards discipline and xenophobic hatred as part of an emperor ideology; i.e., ****ing brainwashing. The objective had long since ceased to be about fighting.

You can't take the practices that the classical warrior engaged in during and in the immediate aftermath of the fighting era and transfer them to another person who has never had a battle in his life. But that's what karate does, and with a superior attitude to boot. Karate gives legitimacy to its indoctrination methods by drawing on the terms, concepts, and principles established in the bujutsu and budo systems without having any real understanding of them. That's why Draeger referred to the shin budo systems as an 'ass in a tiger's skin.' Karate puts on airs about knowing things that everybody else doesn't; that there is some secret knowledge to be imparted somewhere down the line and that the master can somehow defeat opponents without ever having really fought, thanks to his esoteric knowledge, and that he can do it without breaking a sweat or messing up his hairstyle. And when karate guys came down to my gym, I sometimes got the feeling that I was being judged in comparison to their masters. What I do is natural and therefore imperfect; I don't do it for show, I haven't practiced so as to exhibit my movements for visual effect. I train to be able to do what I have to do at the time, and I'm not really interested in what it looks like, only what the effect is on my opponent. That's also the opposite to karate. So how a karate guy is going to judge me when some of them can just about find their own dick is beyond me.

The idea that some geek with some Oriental moves, no matter how well-rehearsed, is going to take on and take out an experienced streetfighter or professional MMA fighter is ********, and I've said before that anyone who believes differently is walking around with his head up his arse—or more likely somebody else's. If it looks like **** and smells like ****, in all probability it is ****. And the truth is, if your senses and rationale haven't yet told you that, then anything I do or say isn't going to change your perception of karate and the way you practice it. And there's the rub. I'm no longer interested in catering for the needs of pseudo-martial artists or to win their approval. What you do and what I do couldn't be more different. Me trying to convince you of the validity of my method or invalidity of yours, would be like selling combs to the bald. You don't ever intend to fight, so you don't need what I have to show you. In fact, you said that if you 'felt that worried', you'd carry a gun. People with that attitude don't interest me.

Steve Morris

(1) Let me be clear: when I talk about fascism, I'm not referring to those who practice karate as nothing more than a sport or a recreational pursuit or as self-defence, though I would advise them to put their talent and energy into more realistic combative sports and practices. I'm referring to those dyed-in-the-wool traditionalists who thrive on military order and routine and who have swallowed hook, line and sinker the notion of the superiority of the Japanese race/culture/martial arts, and in particular the superiority of their particular system and master. They see karate as a means of injecting military discipline, order, and control into their otherwise insignificant lives. Many also believe in karate as something noble that they can be tangibly connected to, by which they judge others, and which with the religious fervor of a zealot they try to pass on. And when the opportunity arises, as it inevitably will as these individuals ascend through the ranks of the system, many of these traditionalists see karate as a vehicle for their own personal beliefs, and through the power of their rank, a means to dominate and indoctrinate others.

The average karate student in the local church hall or sports centre isn't operating on this level, and there are higher ranks in karate who don't fit this description. But if you are training in karate, what you need to think about is the fact that you are buying into a system that is inherently corrupt, and in many ways, one which has its roots in an ideology that would probably sicken you if you knew more about it.

To tell you the truth, I would prefer to go through the rest of my life without ever thinking another thought about karate. But the fact that I'm still getting letters like yours has sparked me to put some of the research I have done on war crimes, etc. down in writing. It is not a task I enjoy. However, for the record, I am working on a detailed article about the associations between karate, its masters, and the vast network of corruption that surrounded not only Japanese war crimes, but also fascism in general. I decided to answer your letter now, because the research involved there goes on at some length. That article will be on the site as soon as it is finished. All the references for Sasakawa, etc. will be provided at that time.If you need more information about it before then, e-mail me and I'll send you the references.

PantherFist
14-May-2005, 10:15 PM
Wow, no punches pulled there :)

moononthewater
15-May-2005, 11:20 AM
You have to respect the man he has been there and done it. It does not matter if you agree with his ideas or not he is a martial artist of the the traditional breed in that he will back up anything he says.

Visage
15-May-2005, 02:14 PM
Sounds like an arrogant, egotist to me.

mani
15-May-2005, 05:33 PM
Sounds like an arrogant, egotist to me.

The guy certainly isn't. Hes been labelled by even leading karate masters as a living legend. The guy's knowledge about martial arts in incomparable, and like someone already said, he backs up anything he says.

YODA
15-May-2005, 05:49 PM
The guy certainly isn't. Hes been labelled by even leading karate masters as a living legend. The guy's knowledge about martial arts in incomparable, and like someone already said, he backs up anything he says.

He can be all that and STILL an arrogant egotist.

I find it surprising that a man of his talent and obvious intellect seems unable to communicate without the use of profanity.

mani
15-May-2005, 06:03 PM
He can be all that and STILL an arrogant egotist.

I find it surprising that a man of his talent and obvious intellect seems unable to communicate without the use of profanity.

Suppose thats just the nature of the man. I mean, hes tried changing peoples ideas for around 30 years, and still people come up with this kind of thing and still question him on things hes proved for some on so many occasions, through his articles and life experiences, backed up by some of the leading martial artists.

LiaoRouxin
15-May-2005, 06:48 PM
A lot of his points are crap, especially about karate supporting fascism. The same points could be made about a good deal of CMA or Western MA, does that mean I shouldn't learn to box? Or learn Judo? The search "Karate War Crimes" is ridiculous, I could do the same for Muay Thai and fight out that in the 17th century the king of Siam's guards tortured Laotians. Or Kungfu War crimes would no doubt find out about the slaughtering of the Xiongnu, the brutalization of the Tibetans, the racial violence of the 60s in Singapore. Or what about Sambo? Oh noes! Sambo was used by Soviet soldiers on innocent Afghanis, surely we must reject the entire art!

And his piece on indoctrination into the evil Japanese culture is similarly stupid, never have I been to a dojo, in Japan, Singapore, or America, and felt that they were trying to force a feeling of Japanese cultural superiority on me anymore than I might try to force a feeling of Chinese superiority on any of my students. I felt that the instructors were trying to present some traditional aspects of Japanese society to their students, as well as instill a sense of respect in the students for that culture. I'd expect the same for Greek culture if I went to learn Pankration, and that's what I get for Russia studying Sambo. And, yes, one of those cultural values is respect for superiors and elders. GASP! Oh noes, surely every Confucian must be a fascist or a pawn of fascists!
And surely those values are not shared by his clearly non-fascist and apparently superior British culture. Oh, wait a minute, I forgot that they have a monarch.

This is ridiculous that he's bashing karate on a cultural note that is shared by at some point in history by almost every other martial art. After all, didn't the old political assassins of ancient Greece study Pankration? Wasn't CMA used to ambush and sack the villages of innocent Di nomads in Western China? He wants to support this by saying that the worthlessness of Karate actually aids this ceaseless march towards dictatorship. Last time I checked a shotokan guy could still punch really hard and a Kyokushin person could knock people out very effectively.

Oh noes, it's not MMA, whatever shall we do? Oh noes, it was supported by Japanese government, so surely it must be evil!! If that's the case then by studying and competing in Judo I must surely be a tool of the Japanese devil.

Give me a break.

moononthewater
15-May-2005, 08:39 PM
As i said earlier you might not like what the guy says but he has put it all to the test he has trained and lived with the best he most certanly has an ego. But he has tested it and proved himself in ways the majority of martial artists would never do so. He also looks at it as a proper martial art in which it has only one purpose and that is to win and quickly. Most of us will not go to his level of training because we have jobs and a life outside our martial art. We do not want to go to work the next day with black eyes and broken noses. So we might train hard but only up to a point. Mr Morris believes in training full on for that life or death situation. Its not how i would do it and i might be one of those he people he despises but i can understand his point about how and why he trains as he does.
As for his piece on war crimes i do not know enough to comment on it and i suspect he knows more than myself. Im sure it will make interesting reading when it comes out.

Moosey
24-May-2005, 12:45 PM
And there seems to be a perception amongst many martial artists, both within karate and outside of it, that I'm just a bad-tempered, bitter individual who 'slags off' the martial arts.

I wonder why...

Ressla
25-May-2005, 11:12 AM
Steve expressed some dismay at the responses received when this was posted on another forum.

To be honest he is his own worst enemy. This karate/fascism link is totally peripheral to whether karate is any good or not.

He has probably the best technical mind of any martial artist alive today ( and at 61 years old the proven ability also).

Its a shame he cant see past this hating karate business. Lets face it many ex karate guys know its rubbish too. It just distracts from his training ablilty when he insists on going off on a tangent like this.

Ressla
25-May-2005, 11:18 AM
Last time I checked a shotokan guy could still punch really hard

When did you last check? Lots of people can punch hard without any "official" training anyway. Shotokan is about the worst style for improving punching ability. Think how much better they could punch if they were boxing instead.

Moosey
25-May-2005, 11:25 AM
When did you last check? Lots of people can punch hard without any "official" training anyway. Shotokan is about the worst style for improving punching ability. Think how much better they could punch if they were boxing instead.

Interesting conclusion. When did you last check? Or do you not bother before making sweeping, unfounded generalisations?

jonmonk
25-May-2005, 11:30 AM
You know, all I know of Steve Morris is what he's written in that letter. In it, he's criticises Terry O'Neill's support of Higoanna Sensei. My only experience of Higoanna has been from seeing interviews with him and I have to say that, based on what I've seen so far, I'd rather aim to become more like Higoanna than Morris any day and frankly I couldn't give a damn which one of them can 'punch harder'.

Ressla
25-May-2005, 02:01 PM
Interesting conclusion. When did you last check? Or do you not bother before making sweeping, unfounded generalisations?

I last "checked" about 2 months ago while training with a friend of mine who used to train Shotokan at the same place I did. This guy is a Dan grade from the KUGB, the most "respected" organisation for Shotokan probably in the world.

I myself used to train Shotokan for almost 2 years under Jimmy and Frank Brennan , the latter being the most "feared" competitor in Shotokan in his time ( google his name).

Would I like to be punched by my friend or any karate person named above? No.

In fact I dont think I'd like being punched by anyone ,irrespective of whether they trained karate or not.
But I have serious misgivings about karate instruction (or other non or "semi"-contact MAs) and their ability to train people for any practical self defence purpose.

Never fall into the illusion that because someone is a "tough guy" then that must be entirely the result of their training in a certain art.

Moosey
25-May-2005, 02:12 PM
Karate doesn't train everyone to be a tough guy - but nothing does! Short of brainwashing and systematic torture, you're not going to turn a placid, passive individual into a killing machine. But to say that karate doesn't teach you how to punch isn't true.

I'm a KUGB shotokan practicioner myself and am well aware of Frank Brennan's reputation. I certainly find it hard to believe that you learned nothing from him. Whether or not the training style agreed with you, to claim that karate practicioners are "the worst" at punching is just plain untrue.

Davey Bones
25-May-2005, 03:45 PM
I have to agree. This gentleman is his own worst enemy. His comments are rather far-fetched, and smack of racism. He is not someone I would aspire to be based on that letter, nor is he someone I would train under... it sounds as though he spends more time "un-indoctrinating" people as he claims Karate does indoctrinating people!

moononthewater
25-May-2005, 08:07 PM
I admit he maybe does himself few favours but i will wait till he publishes what he has to say maybe he will have the proof to back up his statements. I know through the years i was involved in karate he did get a raw deal over here. I also believe he is one of a kind in the martial art world. As i said earlier its not my way of doing things but i have to respect the man as he has trained and learnt off the best. He has gone and walked the walk.

Timmy Boy
10-Aug-2005, 01:23 PM
You might have expected me to say this but I can totally see where Steve's coming from.

With regards to the profanity issue, I'm sure that he is capable of making a point without swearing but simply chose not to. I swear outside of these forums and I don't see any problem with it unless I'm around kids etc, they're just slang words to me and most people are the same.

Getting back to the article itself...

LiaoRouxin, you have amazing knowledge of MA and history but I think you missed the point he was getting at. It's not so much that karate was used on civilians by the Japanese military, because as you say there are many martial arts to which you could attribute the same kind of atrocities if you used that argument, but more that the kind of philosophy taught to those troops via karate is the same fascist philosophy being taught to karateka today.

I'm on first name terms with my instructors in both judo and MMA. I don't get foreign cultural values forced down my throat. I don't get told not to do certain techniques simply because they're not on our syllabus even though they work. I don't have to refer to the founders of my arts as if they're demi-gods.

Before this, I studied tang sou dao for a couple of years. I won't go into great detail about the history of TSD, but it will suffice to say that it is essentially a style of karate - it was originally based on shotokan, it used to be called "kong soo do" which means "karate" in korean before it had a couple of name changes, it uses the same forms/katas, techniques and training drills, and it teaches the same way of thinking. I trained in karate when I was younger and I've seen a lot more of it, so I can say with confidence that it's no more different to shotokan than goju ryu or wado ryu is.

Anyway, based on my TSD training I completely understand what Steve is talking about. I had to refer to the instructor as "Sir". We weren't allowed to talk in class. We weren't allowed to use techniques from other styles. We weren't allowed to question the instructor. The Grandmaster of the association (proud owner of a large Mercedes Benz saloon, which was presumably funded in no small part by the horrendous grading fees) was treated like an immortal. I said hello to him on a couple of occasions and he just walked on as if I wasn't even there. I was the lowly student, my opinion was worthless; they were the duan grades, my superiors, my commanding officers. It's not hard to see the link to fascism here, and I left because the principles they were trying to instill in me were contrary to my own sense of reason, morality, and basic common sense. Once I'd left, the instructor kept holding my best mate back on his gradings when he was more than ready simply to "test his commitment".

The sad thing, however, is that people actually LIKE this kind of training! It makes people feel like they're doing a "proper" martial art. The rubbish spouted by the Grandmaster and his lieutenants makes them feel like they have something they should aspire to one day. It's what they've seen of martial arts in the films and they expect the same romantic vision in the real lessons. People, including young, impressionable children, are buying into a fascist way of thinking. That's not to say that all karateka (or their clubs/instructors) are like this, of course they aren't, but I've met a fair few who are - enough for it to be a significant problem worth Steve writing his article about. This is not a healthy ideology to be impressing on people, and it's a shame because there were some really nice people at my TSD club who had just been brainwashed into submission.

Moosey
10-Aug-2005, 01:36 PM
Tim, I agree with you on a lot of this. I think that some degree of regimentation and politeness is necessary when you're tutoring a large class full of people but some of the weird "cultish" behaviour displayed in some MA classes is downright odd!

I think calling your teacher "sir" is fairly harmless, but the kind of reverence with which senior grades are sometimes treated is just creepy.

Timmy Boy
10-Aug-2005, 01:39 PM
Tim, I agree with you on a lot of this. I think that some degree of regimentation and politeness is necessary when you're tutoring a large class full of people but some of the weird "cultish" behaviour displayed in some MA classes is downright odd!

I think calling your teacher "sir" is fairly harmless, but the kind of reverence with which senior grades are sometimes treated is just creepy.

Well yeah, I wouldn't really have cared about just calling him "Sir" if all the other rubbish I'm talking about wasn't in there as well.

Jesh
10-Aug-2005, 10:57 PM
Timmy, you're absolutely right... but for the guy to say that karate is in essence a fascist system seems a bit off. I'd love to see the evidence that he mentions though.

Timmy Boy
10-Aug-2005, 11:05 PM
Timmy, you're absolutely right... but for the guy to say that karate is in essence a fascist system seems a bit off. I'd love to see the evidence that he mentions though.

Well, I'll leave it to the karateka to decide whether he's right or not, all I'm saying is I can see his point.

moononthewater
11-Aug-2005, 12:08 AM
As i said in an earlier post alot of people might not agree with what he says but how many can claim to have walked a similar path. He has over the years trained with the teachers many of us have only read about in books. He has over the years and still does do the business he is what i would call a real martial artist. He might not be politiclly correct but you cannot fault his martial arts. I dont agree with all the stuff he says but you do have to listen to what he says because he talks from personal experience. Few of us have had the experiences he has had.

pgm316
11-Aug-2005, 02:48 PM
but more that the kind of philosophy taught to those troops via karate is the same fascist philosophy being taught to karateka today.

I'm on first name terms with my instructors in both judo and MMA. I don't get foreign cultural values forced down my throat. I don't get told not to do certain techniques simply because they're not on our syllabus even though they work. I don't have to refer to the founders of my arts as if they're demi-gods.

We weren't allowed to use techniques from other styles. We weren't allowed to question the instructor.

The sad thing, however, is that people actually LIKE this kind of training! It makes people feel like they're doing a "proper" martial art. The rubbish spouted by the Grandmaster and his lieutenants makes them feel like they have something they should aspire to one day.

This is not a healthy ideology to be impressing on people, and it's a shame because there were some really nice people at my TSD club who had just been brainwashed into submission.

I was talking to Tim about this on messenger last night. I've had similar experiences. And to save time I've chopped his post up and left some bits which sound very familiar.

My earlier training was like being in a boot camp. Which seemed fine at first when you know no better, you question nothing and accept this is how they got good so you must do it also!

Then you realise there only good at what they do, not a good all round martial artist. The harsh environemt isn't in your best interest, and in fact its potentially damaging to you emotionally whilst all you're getting for is at best average training!

Times are changing and theres no excuse for the training environment to be like this anymore, it doesn't get the most out of students! Modern training environments and not just MMA, can be pleasant, use good effective training techniques and produce good happy fighters....

Moosey
11-Aug-2005, 03:02 PM
But the conclusion is still "There are some bad instructors out there"

Didn't we know this already?

Timmy Boy
11-Aug-2005, 03:09 PM
But the conclusion is still "There are some bad instructors out there"

Didn't we know this already?

The question, IMO, is "what is the extent of the problem"?

Moosey
11-Aug-2005, 03:20 PM
I guess we can never know. The only way to do it is to find out how many classes of each MA there are worldwide, and what proportion of these instructors are considered "bad" - it's an impossible task really.

pgm316
11-Aug-2005, 03:21 PM
But the conclusion is still "There are some bad instructors out there"

Didn't we know this already?

I think thats a slightly different issue.

I'm not talking about bad instructors, but the culture with runs through styles, clubs, oranisations etc.

I think theres a big difference between a bad instructor and an instructor that teaches in the way his martials arts club has trained him to.

Timmy Boy
11-Aug-2005, 04:25 PM
The problem is that when people say "bad instructor" they usually mean someone who's bad at teaching. In this case we're talking about authoritarian bullies who brainwash people into believing in a fascist ideology (which invariably involves students rolling out the red carpet for them) and take their money for it. At my uncle's old aikido dojo, for example, the kyu grades had to fold the black belts' gis. The things they teach are morally wrong IMO and that makes them worse than mere bad instructors.

Moosey
12-Aug-2005, 11:52 AM
I agree that this is entirely morally wrong, but I'm still inclined to think it's a few bad apples rather than a systematic thing (admittedly this is only through my experience of karate dojos as I've never trained in anything else, but the article did specify karate). I'm sure there are a few gung-ho teachers of modern MA styles who conform to the "jock" stereotype and bully their students in a different way. I've seen a lot of university Rugby teams or Hockey teams 'indoctrinating' new members into their drinking culture and quickly forcing out the tea-totallers and moderate drinkers - this is the same kind of brainwashing - it forces and condones extreme/unhealthy behaviour. If anything, martial arts clubs are fairly easy-going compared to some other clubs.

pgm316
12-Aug-2005, 02:08 PM
I agree that this is entirely morally wrong, but I'm still inclined to think it's a few bad apples rather than a systematic thing (admittedly this is only through my experience of karate dojos as I've never trained in anything else, but the article did specify karate). I'm sure there are a few gung-ho teachers of modern MA styles who conform to the "jock" stereotype and bully their students in a different way. I've seen a lot of university Rugby teams or Hockey teams 'indoctrinating' new members into their drinking culture and quickly forcing out the tea-totallers and moderate drinkers - this is the same kind of brainwashing - it forces and condones extreme/unhealthy behaviour. If anything, martial arts clubs are fairly easy-going compared to some other clubs.

We'll have to agree to disagree ;)

Maybe you've been lucky to avoid the "institutions" that me and Tim mention. Its not a Karate club I'm talking about but I don't think the problems unique to any one style. And within these clubs theres still the good and bad instructors. Its not the instructors as such I'm talking about. But the rituals, methods of training and culture which runs through the organisations from the top down. I'm not going through it because its all been said before in this thread.

Timmy Boy
12-Aug-2005, 05:04 PM
It's not that this kind if thing is restricted to karate, it's just that Steve obviously can't speak for every martial art out there.

Hiroji
12-Aug-2005, 05:17 PM
That guy needs to lighten up a bit, stop taking things so serious!. Go for a run, clear your head. Go on holiday, have a few drinks with your mates (if hes got any :) ) . Go to Alton towers or Disney land Paris. Enjoy the finer things in life christ doesnt he have more important things to worrie about. Loser.

Timmy Boy
12-Aug-2005, 05:33 PM
He was responding to a letter someone wrote to him.

Hiroji
12-Aug-2005, 05:43 PM
So how come it took this guy so long to realise that karate wasnt for him? it took me a year. But i dont go round with a bitter pill in my mouth.

ALPHADEANO
12-Aug-2005, 06:02 PM
Anybody trained with him, any photos or memories?

moononthewater
12-Aug-2005, 06:05 PM
I dont believe there is a problem with the old rituals i have been in various clubs Japanese and Chinese which are run in the old manner and i have never come across the problems you are talking about. Again its very much down to the teachers attitude at each particular club.
As for Mr Morris taking a Chill pill the differance is that his martial arts is his way of life. Most people doing martial arts train a couple of times a week and feel thats all they need to do.

moononthewater
12-Aug-2005, 06:10 PM
I trained with the man Gary Spiers (sadly deceased now)who he mentioned and three other teachers who are good friends of mine have trained with him. They all consider him about the best martial artist they have met. Though saying that i do not think any train with him anymore due to the fact that it was a quite brutal training regime.

Timmy Boy
12-Aug-2005, 06:37 PM
So how come it took this guy so long to realise that karate wasnt for him? it took me a year. But i dont go round with a bitter pill in my mouth.

Because he only realised what he thought was crap about it towards the end of his karate training. And he goes around with a bitter pill in his mouth because it spreads fascism and discredits MAs in general.

Hiroji
13-Aug-2005, 10:03 AM
Because he only realised what he thought was crap about it towards the end of his karate training. And he goes around with a bitter pill in his mouth because it spreads fascism and discredits MAs in general.

what he goes round with a bitter pill in his mouth to spread fascism and discredit MAs?. The only people that dicredit MA are people like him. There are a lot of happy people that actually enjoy doing karate.

pgm316
14-Aug-2005, 09:06 AM
what he goes round with a bitter pill in his mouth to spread fascism and discredit MAs?. The only people that dicredit MA are people like him. There are a lot of happy people that actually enjoy doing karate.

And Steve would say deservadly so!

Ressla
14-Aug-2005, 11:30 PM
Anybody trained with him, any photos or memories?

Seen the man in action , he's still formidable despite being in his seventh decade.
Physically he looks like my old geography teacher. Tallish guy, long hair and very articulate speaker.And frankly , one of the most intelligent men you will ever meet.Entirely the opposite image that you might get reading some of the legends that surround him.


Last year at one of his seminars he had a confrontation with a well known British MMA fighter (check his website or PM me if you want the guys name). Apparently the guy dissed Steve regarding a drill/technique Steve was showing, implying that it wouldn't work in a MMA fight.
The reply from steve was along the lines of -
SM -just try it out
Fighter- no it wont work
SM- listen ,I've been fighting No Holds Barred since before you were born mate........

The conversation continued on and on till eventually steve had had enough of this loudmouth and walked up to him punched him twice in the chest.The guy went down like a sack of spuds.

" I dont know what your concept of a KO is...but that guy was KO'd by body shots" I was told by an observer later.

My friend told me Steve was operating on about 1/3 power and made it look pathetically easy. Particularly as the guy calls himself "Cardiff's Top Doorman".

Apparently everybody else in the room could see the impending violence that was gonna occur apart from the fighter. Which doesnt bode well for a "top doorman".

It wasnt the fact that the incident occured that shocked everyone, but how easily he made a rated fighter look a walkover.

I dont condone this incident and Steve doesnt exactly come out smelling of roses from this ...it goes some way to explain why very few people want to train with him.


Theres also the story of the BJJ guys who came to his gym when he was down in Horsham and challenged him. Steve calmly went round and opened all the windows on this 2nd storey gym. The BJJs guys asked him what he was doing , he replied " when I've finished with you I'm gonna throw you out the window". The guys left swiftly.

With Steve a fights a fight. If you challenge him you better make sure you win.

Moosey
15-Aug-2005, 09:54 AM
he replied " when I've finished with you I'm gonna throw you out the window". The guys left swiftly.

That's quite funny.

pgm316
15-Aug-2005, 10:00 AM
That's quite funny.

Funny but clever!

When you can win a fight by talking, then thats some real skill! :cool:

Haduken
15-Aug-2005, 11:08 AM
quite, but i can't help but also note that it is also probably a big contributer to the guy having so few students. Such a pity

pgm316
15-Aug-2005, 11:15 AM
quite, but i can't help but also note that it is also probably a big contributer to the guy having so few students. Such a pity

Even though he calls karate he's still "old school" himself. And if the old and harsh methods are the only way he knows he won't have many students. People want to enjoy there training, not be brutalised in their spare time :D

Haduken
15-Aug-2005, 11:45 AM
hmm, well I am not sure i totally agree with that pgm316. I am not sure that he brutalises his students - i am sure that his training is very hardcore, but i do not think that that is a bad thing. I do not think that training is there to be fun, enjoyed... maybe, but only by those that enjoy training hard. MA aren't for everybody in my opinion, and nor should they be - this modern wave of accomodating the public desire to train in MA is a load of c*$p - and is what directly leads to the mcDojo GKR branded MA's that most of us hate so much.

I personally just think it will be hard for steve morris to gain any students if he insists upon anyone who trains with him to not only disregard any TMA they may have studied, but to acknowledge that they have nothing to offer. especially as most people feel they have gained a huge amount from the arts they have studied, and that most people that come looking for him, whether he likes it or not, seem to come from a TMA, or more specifically goju, background. it seems a pity that the one group that seems to be the most actively seeking his knowledge and teaching, are those that he rejects outhand.

pgm316
15-Aug-2005, 12:23 PM
I trained with the man Gary Spiers (sadly deceased now)who he mentioned and three other teachers who are good friends of mine have trained with him. They all consider him about the best martial artist they have met. Though saying that i do not think any train with him anymore due to the fact that it was a quite brutal training regime.

I'm not sure either Haduken.

I agree with what you say about accommodating the public Haduken. Martial Arts shouldn't be diluted to make it more appealing to the public. Although back on track; a hard training regime doesn't mean its a good club either. My previous posts have talked about harsh training regimes that don't get the results.

Timmy Boy
15-Aug-2005, 03:54 PM
what he goes round with a bitter pill in his mouth to spread fascism and discredit MAs?. The only people that dicredit MA are people like him. There are a lot of happy people that actually enjoy doing karate.

You just haven't listened to a word of this thread, have you? You just picked up on the fact that he was ranting about karate and you stuck your fingers in your ears. If you'd been listening, you would know that he's not spreading fascism, he's accusing karate of doing it.

I know you particularly don't like people slagging certain martial arts off, but unfortunately we don't live in a world of tekken characters where all fighting styles are equal and everything is determined by the player/artist. There are some bad schools and some that are just morally wrong, and the least you could do is to just listen to what people have to say before responding.

I personally just think it will be hard for steve morris to gain any students if he insists upon anyone who trains with him to not only disregard any TMA they may have studied, but to acknowledge that they have nothing to offer. especially as most people feel they have gained a huge amount from the arts they have studied, and that most people that come looking for him, whether he likes it or not, seem to come from a TMA, or more specifically goju, background. it seems a pity that the one group that seems to be the most actively seeking his knowledge and teaching, are those that he rejects outhand.

If a martial arts instructor is running his club properly he will teach honestly, regardless of whether it will put his students off or not. If he feels that someone has come to his club having learned nothing of value in their years of karate training, tough - that's what he's going to tell them. They might not want to hear it, but as far as he's concerned, that's the way it is and he wouldn't be doing his job properly if he pretended otherwise. You either want to learn how to fight or you don't.

I'm not sure either Haduken.

I agree with what you say about accommodating the public Haduken. Martial Arts shouldn't be diluted to make it more appealing to the public. Although back on track; a hard training regime doesn't mean its a good club either. My previous posts have talked about harsh training regimes that don't get the results.

I agree, training shouldn't be hard for the sake of it, it should be hard but relevant. There's a kyokushin club in my town that trains barefoot in the snow - how is that going to help you fight better?

Hiroji
15-Aug-2005, 04:21 PM
timmy boy dony get so upset!. Look you have your opinion on things and i have mine. I for one do not stick my fingers in my ears its a very dirty habit. An if you really want a slagging match could you please have the respect to PM me.

With you been a MMA enthusiast is great and you are bound to go along with steves thoughts. Some things he says are true but others are totally egotistical. But like everyone else he is open to his own take on things.

Hiroji
15-Aug-2005, 04:23 PM
Also when did i ever say all fighting styles are equal? never. All i think is that people train for diff reasons. like you want to compete in MMA but not everyone wants to get their face smashed in for sport.

Timmy Boy
15-Aug-2005, 04:54 PM
timmy boy dony get so upset!. Look you have your opinion on things and i have mine. I for one do not stick my fingers in my ears its a very dirty habit. An if you really want a slagging match could you please have the respect to PM me.

If it was a slagging match I'd be calling you names. I'm not upset, I'm just saying that if you want to participate in a debate you should listen to what's being said. If you have a different opinion to mine then fine, no problem, by all means disagree with me and debate with me, but if you're not going to bother to listen then I consider that rude. Moosey doesn't agree with me or Steve but at least used his brain and he listened to the opposing view, hence my response to him was different.

With you been a MMA enthusiast is great and you are bound to go along with steves thoughts. Some things he says are true but others are totally egotistical. But like everyone else he is open to his own take on things.

Then point out which things are egotistical.

Also when did i ever say all fighting styles are equal? never. All i think is that people train for diff reasons. like you want to compete in MMA but not everyone wants to get their face smashed in for sport.

1) You said that all fighting styles are equal in some of your other posts, which supports my conclusion that, as soon as you noticed he was slagging off karate, your brain switched off because you're sick of hearing it and you didn't listen to what he said. And I can tell you didn't listen to what he said because he said he was against the fascism being taught via karate.

2) When did I say everyone should compete in MMA and get their face smashed in for sport? And what does that have to do with this thread?

Hiroji
15-Aug-2005, 05:07 PM
If it was a slagging match I'd be calling you names. I'm not upset, I'm just saying that if you want to participate in a debate you should listen to what's being said. If you have a different opinion to mine great but if you're not going to bother to listen then I consider that rude. Moosey doesn't agree with me or Steve but at least he has a brain and he listened to the opposing view, hence my response to him was different.



Then point out which things are egotistical.



1) You said that all fighting styles are equal in some of your other posts, which supports my conclusion that, as soon as you noticed he was slagging off karate, your brain switched off because you're sick of hearing it and you didn't listen to what he said. And I can tell you didn't listen to what he said because he said he was against the fascism being taught via karate.

2) When did I say everyone should compete in MMA and get their face smashed in for sport? And what does that have to do with this thread?

Listen mate we can debate this all you like like girls but i just think that guy is a pratt. Yes he may have some points and he may be a great fighter.

You can think all you like but i have read all the thread. Im not sick of hearing karate being slagged off, i happen to think along the same lines as him on some points. If you care to look in the karate forum you will see.

Timmy Boy
15-Aug-2005, 05:09 PM
Listen mate we can debate this all you like like girls but i just think that guy is a pratt. Yes he may have some points and he may be a great fighter.

Well thankyou for your overwhelming contribution to the discussion.

You can think all you like but i have read all the thread. Im not sick of hearing karate being slagged off, i happen to think along the same lines as him on some points. If you care to look in the karate forum you will see.

If you've read all the thread why did you think he was spreading fascism?

Hiroji
15-Aug-2005, 05:21 PM
Well thankyou for your overwhelming contribution to the discussion.



If you've read all the thread why did you think he was spreading fascism?

No you misread- i was asking the question of him spreading fascism. Because in your post before it seemed like that was what YOU were saying.

Well to be honest i have nothing more to say. So im not going to talk crap for the sake of it. Im sorry but im just not as good at discussion as you are timmy.

pgm316
15-Aug-2005, 08:11 PM
timmy boy dony get so upset!. Look you have your opinion on things and i have mine. I for one do not stick my fingers in my ears its a very dirty habit. An if you really want a slagging match could you please have the respect to PM me.

With you been a MMA enthusiast is great and you are bound to go along with steves thoughts. Some things he says are true but others are totally egotistical. But like everyone else he is open to his own take on things.

Its not that Tims getting uptset, but feels strongly about the subject which I do to.

Hiroji, you're probably right about Steve being egotistical and the like. I really don't care whether he is or not or whether hes a good fighter, also likewise I don't think the issue is Karate.

It just happens that Steve did Karate in one of these old school organisations and hes loud enough to make enough fuss about it, thus we've managed to read his article.

The bottom line is theres organisations around that treat students badly. In ancient China/Japan students may have endured harsh treatment and ritualised abuse to prove their dedication to the art. Somehow I can't imagine the best UFC fighters doing that :D

I don't want to pay to fold up uniforms, sweep floors, treat black belts like high ranking generals and all the other ritualised BS that comes with it. Who in this day and age does :confused: I'd rather do some good training ;)

ALPHADEANO
15-Aug-2005, 09:26 PM
The bottom line is theres organisations around that treat students badly. In ancient China/Japan students may have endured harsh treatment and ritualised abuse to prove their dedication to the art. Somehow I can't imagine the best UFC fighters doing that :D

I don't want to pay to fold up uniforms, sweep floors, treat black belts like high ranking generals and all the other ritualised BS that comes with it. Who in this day and age does :confused: I'd rather do some good training ;)


Isnt this just a vetting service?

Decined to weed out people of incorrect character.

Mabey if there was more of a vetting service in martial arts in this country we wouldnt have so many crooks and peodophiles teaching martial arts just a thought.

pgm316
15-Aug-2005, 09:38 PM
Isnt this just a vetting service?

Decined to weed out people of incorrect character.

Mabey if there was more of a vetting service in martial arts in this country we wouldnt have so many crooks and peodophiles teaching martial arts just a thought.

vetting service for what?

do good fighters like being treated badly?

don't peodophiles like folding up gi's?

don't crooks like sweeping the floor?

its not a vetting service, its not necessary, it doesn't make good fighters :bang:

moononthewater
15-Aug-2005, 11:58 PM
Its the same in most systems though it be an apprentice mechanic getting all the dirty jobs or the young football player cleaning boots. Martial arts are nt the only place you find these rituals.

Timmy Boy
16-Aug-2005, 08:58 AM
A young mechanic or even a football player is doing a job though, moon. He has to get stuck into the crap jobs to begin with to prove that he's hardworking and he'll be an asset to the business. Martial arts is different, you're paying for a service, being downtrodden isn't part of the deal. Besides, in martial arts you prove that you're hardworking by sticking at the training even if it gets hard, not by folding the black belts' gis and sweeping the sensei's yard.

EDIT: I'm a poet and I didn't know it! :D

moononthewater
16-Aug-2005, 12:57 PM
I can see why you are saying that but i disagree if you want to learn the art you need to show willing, you need to prove you want to do more than just train. I have yet to go and train under someone who has made his students fold up his Gi. I see no problem with sweeping the training area as you plan to train there. Again i have never met one who has made students clean his back yard. When my teacher comes over (lives in Malaysia)i will drive him to various parts of the country or take him to the pub(though he is slacking in that department nowadays). I will also put him up or students that come over with him. I do not believe any of this is being walked all over i feel this is being part of the family. If i go to see him or go to another school i would expect the same attitude. In return for this he will spend whole days with me just training whilst he is here.
I also used to train with about the most traditional Go Ju ryu teacher you could meet and though his training was very very hard i never once heard him ask any body to do anything he would not do himself.
I suspect if there are teachers taking advantage that is a fault in those teachers i feel most good teachers will ask you favours they will not demand them.
So i do not believe its the rituals the teachers ask of their students its more to do with certain teachers crossing the line and asking too much.
If you are talking from experience i think you were probably unlucky and got one of the power mad freaks and i have met a few in passing.

Ps as for the paying for a service you are correct but if you do not like it you can walk away. One reason alot of Mcdojos do so well they get alot of students who do not want to train hard. The real hardcore students being either TMA or MMA train in small schools.

pgm316
16-Aug-2005, 01:15 PM
I can see why you are saying that but i disagree if you want to learn the art you need to show willing, you need to prove you want to do more than just train. I have yet to go and train under someone who has made his students fold up his Gi. I see no problem with sweeping the training area as you plan to train there. Again i have never met one who has made students clean his back yard. When my teacher comes over (lives in Malaysia)i will drive him to various parts of the country or take him to the pub(though he is slacking in that department nowadays). I will also put him up or students that come over with him. I do not believe any of this is being walked all over i feel this is being part of the family. If i go to see him or go to another school i would expect the same attitude. In return for this he will spend whole days with me just training whilst he is here.
I suspect if there are teachers taking advantage that is a fault in those teachers i feel most good teachers will ask you favours they will not demand them.

Sounds like you're part of a nice organisation. Wish mine had been more like that!

The folding of gi's and sweeping is irrelevant. I didn't do either of those, the point of the thread is the general way students were treated. The folding and sweeping were just examples given of the culture of some organisations, and even if that didn't happen I'm sure there'd be little difference.

Whether you vet students, make them an apprentice in the arts, it should not give anyone the privilege of treating them in a demeaning, unpleasant, aggresive, sadistic manner.

moononthewater; have you read previous posts? I totally agree with your post, but its missing the point of the thread bit :confused:

Timmy Boy
16-Aug-2005, 01:36 PM
I can see why you are saying that but i disagree if you want to learn the art you need to show willing, you need to prove you want to do more than just train.

Why? That's what you're paying your money to do.

I have yet to go and train under someone who has made his students fold up his Gi.

They did that at my uncle's aikido club.

I see no problem with sweeping the training area as you plan to train there. Again i have never met one who has made students clean his back yard.

It happens. Did you see that "Deadly Arts" programme where they went to an aikido dojo in Japan?

When my teacher comes over (lives in Malaysia)i will drive him to various parts of the country or take him to the pub(though he is slacking in that department nowadays). I will also put him up or students that come over with him. I do not believe any of this is being walked all over i feel this is being part of the family. If i go to see him or go to another school i would expect the same attitude. In return for this he will spend whole days with me just training whilst he is here.

Mutual respect is not what I disagree with. What I disagree with is where instructors and senior belts use their ranks to bully the lower orders and call it "tradition".

I also used to train with about the most traditional Go Ju ryu teacher you could meet and though his training was very very hard i never once heard him ask any body to do anything he would not do himself.
I suspect if there are teachers taking advantage that is a fault in those teachers i feel most good teachers will ask you favours they will not demand them.

Most? Maybe. But there's plenty around who do take advantage.

So i do not believe its the rituals the teachers ask of their students its more to do with certain teachers crossing the line and asking too much.
If you are talking from experience i think you were probably unlucky and got one of the power mad freaks and i have met a few in passing.

But the problem is that an organisation structured in a militaristic fashion that teaches blind obedience as part of the "spiritual" aspect of its training provides a ripe opportunity for authoritarian prats to ruin people's training.

It's like the argument I use in favour of hard-contact sport martial arts. If instructors are training you to compete, they can't afford to teach you crap, because if they did they'd be exposed in competition and their numbers would drop like flies. It's not that other types of MAs are all rubbish, but in their case it's down to the conscience of the individual instructors to determine whether they teach well or not - sports MAs are self-regulating.

Ps as for the paying for a service you are correct but if you do not like it you can walk away. One reason alot of Mcdojos do so well they get alot of students who do not want to train hard. The real hardcore students being either TMA or MMA train in small schools.

But the thing is, people are often weak minded. You get successive generations of people who have this fascist, cult-like way of thinking ingrained into them because they bought into the hype surrouding MAs and were too weak to resist. It would be OK if it was only affecting them, but they affect their students who affect their students and so on.

Haduken
16-Aug-2005, 01:50 PM
i don't even know where to start... but i have said it before and i will say it again... Timmy boy, you are an idiot! :D

moononthewater
16-Aug-2005, 06:34 PM
pgm316...........if you had read all the posts you mught notice i was in this chat at the start and as with most things in life it has gone in a different direction maybe if you had read them aswell you might have noticed.The unpleasant and sadistic manner happens very rarely and when it does it is more to do with a bad teacher. Timmy i think you have just had some bad experiences very few clubs over here are like your examples. Also if you are talking about clubs in Japan or Asia you have a different culture and way of going about things. I will try and answer later when i get back from training.

Timmy Boy
16-Aug-2005, 07:17 PM
I'm not just talking about my experiences moon, how many times do I need to say this?

moononthewater
16-Aug-2005, 10:14 PM
In that case we will have to agree to disagree as i have been doing traditional martial arts for over 25 years and never had a teacher treat me in the way you are depicting. I am not saying you are wrong but in all the time i have been involved i have never witnessed this. Hard and sometimes brutal training but never nothing i would call sadistic as some one mentioned.

pgm316
17-Aug-2005, 07:57 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree then moon. I'm with Tim on this one!

Just because you haven't experienced it means it doesn't happen :confused:

Its not bad teachers, its the culture within certain organisations and I've come accross a few of which and trained with one. But theres really no point going round and round in circles as I'm obviously imagining it ;)

And as Tim says its not about personal experience anyway, I've heard similar reports from other. And also read similar stores (Angry White Pyjamas: to name one book).

Timmy Boy
17-Aug-2005, 09:10 AM
Moon, I have seen it on TV. I have it on DVD.

Haduken
17-Aug-2005, 11:24 AM
angry white pyjamas... well i know someone who did this corse - and i know someone that used to teach at yoshinkan tokyo - this is a tokyo riot police corse! going from novice to instructor level in aikido in 1 year! if you think you can get achieve such a feet without extreme training let me know how... i am sure the world is waiting with baited breath - and the whole idea that timmy boy puts forward about him being a customer and he paid his money and so has shown his commitment makes me want to puke... it embodies the attitude of everything i feel has corrupted the MA's

moononthewater
17-Aug-2005, 11:54 AM
Timmy do you believe everything you read or see i suspect not. At no point have i said that what you believe is wrong i just believe it is a very small minority i welcome your opinion but i think you are tarring many people with a small brush but you entitled to your opinion as i am mine. Haduken also has a good point though put a little harshly. When going to train paying money does not give you a right to be treated gently. If i go to the dentist i do not expect him not to do a filling because it hurts just because i give him enough money. I expect him to provide the service for which i went to see him. I also teach outside martial arts in the private sector. I have students come to me to learn a skill they pay me good money to teach that skill. I will teach them that skill in whatever manner is needed and sometimes i can be harsh and almost sadistic.This is because mistakes can get them hurt or killed. If they do not like it they can go elsewhere but most will stay because i have a reputation for being good in my line of work. Most of my students want this skill and will put up with what they have put to them to gain that skill. I have no problem with what you say and believe but there are two sides to every coin.

Timmy Boy
17-Aug-2005, 12:08 PM
Haduken, if you want to tell me that my attitude makes you want to puke, at least have the decency to explain why. If not, shut the hell up.

Moon, I would have treated what I'd seen as isolated one-off incidents if I didn't keep hearing about this kind of thing happening and were it not for the fact that Deadly Arts was actually ADVOCATING what was going on. I'm not tarring all clubs with the same brush, I simply think it's a significant problem. If you've been training in martial arts for as long as you have then you're more qualified than me to comment on the extent but I really think it's got to be more than a small minority when so many people keep reporting it.

pgm316
17-Aug-2005, 12:42 PM
In my opinion moon and haduken you are missing the point entirely. Not to mention the seriously bad attitude haduken. Shouldn't your martial arts training teach you to stay calm and deal with the situation politely!? ;)

I agree with Tim, I am the cutomer! I pay my money and you teach me. My commitment will be training hard!!!! The teachers commitment will be to train me well!!! I do not want to do ANY other ritualised BS to prove my commitment.

And to the point; These clubs that myself, Tim, and not to mention the original article by Steve discuss, do not get the results! They have the tough regime but they don't have the end result.

this is a tokyo riot police corse! going from novice to instructor level in aikido in 1 year! if you think you can get achieve such a feet without extreme training let me know how...

Train in BJJ or MMA!? I don't want this to turn into a TMA vs MMA debate but have you seen many of these Aikido students win a UFC event lately :rolleyes: If these institutions get the results then where are they!?!?!??!?!?! :bang:

Timmy Boy
17-Aug-2005, 12:58 PM
Pgm316, that's exactly what I mean. Sweeping the sensei's yard isn't testing my commitment to training hard at martial arts, it's testing my willingness to have blind faith in my instructor regardless of what he makes me do or regardless of how crap the training is. Sonshu doesn't make me sweep his yard to test my commitment - I go to the lessons and train hard (or as hard as I can, considering my pathetic level of fitness). If I wasn't committed I wouldn't go to the lessons and I wouldn't learn anything, which - oh yeah - would actually be MY problem, not his. I have faith in Sonshu's ability to teach stuff that works because he has extensive MA experience, he answers my questions and demonstrates things properly, and he has a 5-3-0 record in MMA competitions. He doesn't need to create an illusion of superiority to convince me to keep training under him. I think we should leave the TMA v MMA debate out of this one though mate ;)

Moosey
17-Aug-2005, 12:59 PM
Train in BJJ or MMA!? I don't want this to turn into a TMA vs MMA debate but have you seen many of these Aikido students win a UFC event lately :rolleyes: If these institutions get the results then where are they!?!?!??!?!?! :bang:

You've managed to introduce several debatable (and often debated...) subjects in one paragraph there :D

Are you really answering his question "how can you train someone to instructor standard within one year?" by saying "they should take BJJ/MMA"?

So BJJ promises to train it's students to black belt within one year? Hmmmm... not sure that's the case!

pgm316
17-Aug-2005, 01:27 PM
You've managed to introduce several debatable (and often debated...) subjects in one paragraph there :D

Are you really answering his question "how can you train someone to instructor standard within one year?" by saying "they should take BJJ/MMA"?

So BJJ promises to train it's students to black belt within one year? Hmmmm... not sure that's the case!

In hindsight I have probably done a bad thing! :D

Whats wrong with my BJJ/MMA answer. If I wanted to get good in a year that would be a good solution. Especially seeing as I don't want to train the the way the riot course teaches.

In the one year course they gained their black belt. The book also said how a black belt in Japan is considered as special as it is in other countries. It was mearly a sign of getting to a good level, however still far behind the masters.

moononthewater
17-Aug-2005, 01:41 PM
This can keep going on and on we all have our own views on how things should be done as our beliefs are at each end of the spectrum i think we are all as close as we are going to get to each other s views (which is not close). Thats fine with me nothing you say will convince me that its a big problem and nothing i say will change your mind. But thats ok if we all had the same opinion there would be no MAP and no one would learn anything(life would also be very boring and to much like 1984). Even with Steve Morris`s article there is a lot i agree with and i believe him to be one of the best Martial artists alive. But that does not mean i agree with him totally even though i believe he is better than myself. I have just had different experiences to him.

Haduken
17-Aug-2005, 01:46 PM
BJJ/MMA are good sports don't get me wrong - i love them and train in BJJ myself, I also agree that you can get very proficient if you train pretty much any MA hard enough and intensly enough for a whole year - I was using the yoshinkan because you brought them up - remember also that the riot police course is not about training to be a MMA fighter - your comment about them not proving themselves in UFC or whatever is way off base - they are not training for tournaments or anything of the like - they are training to be riot police, a very different ball game, with very different rules. The reason I dislike people saying that they are a customer is because you shouldn't be one. you are a student - if you want to learn MA off someone it is nothing like learning a sport like football or dare i say it tae kwon do etc etc... in a sport you will be expected to train hard, yes, you will be expected to obey the coach with in reason to progress, yes... and in both cases if you want to learn what the teacher has to offer you will do whatever he says - it is all about desire. in a MA the person has no obligation to treat you softly just because you think you are a customer - if you wanna leave, fine, no problem, if you wanna learn you will stay and trust the teacher to know what he is doing - the only place this falls down is with mcDojo crap teachers who teach by rote without really knowing what they are doing, and add in the beastings to cover the gaps in their knowledge - and these people will quickly be discovered and abandoned

Timmy Boy
17-Aug-2005, 02:02 PM
The reason I dislike people saying that they are a customer is because you shouldn't be one. you are a student - if you want to learn MA off someone it is nothing like learning a sport like football or dare i say it tae kwon do etc etc... in a sport you will be expected to train hard, yes, you will be expected to obey the coach with in reason to progress, yes... and in both cases if you want to learn what the teacher has to offer you will do whatever he says - it is all about desire. in a MA the person has no obligation to treat you softly just because you think you are a customer - if you wanna leave, fine, no problem, if you wanna learn you will stay and trust the teacher to know what he is doing - the only place this falls down is with mcDojo crap teachers who teach by rote without really knowing what they are doing, and add in the beastings to cover the gaps in their knowledge - and these people will quickly be discovered and abandoned

Haduken, once again you've completely missed the point. I WANT my instructors to make me train hard. I DON'T want them to be "soft" on me. If I didn't like the hard training, I would just quit. But if I train hard, I want that training to be relevant to learning the martial art. Sweeping the sensei's yard and folding the black belts' gis is not relevant to learning the martial art - it's what people do when they want you to be submissive and obey their orders unquestioningly, like in the army. They want to lord it over you because they either enjoy getting on a power trip, they don't want you questioning what they teach in case you realise it's crap, or both. I'm not complaining about hard training, I'm complaining about pointless training with a sinister ulterior motive. My old TSD club didn't train hard at all, and nor did the aikido club that I mentioned.

If they're teaching me something that really works, they don't need to use Traditional Rituals(tm) to test my commitment - they will see my level of commitment from the fact that I keep coming every week despite being made to sweat like a pig each time.

Instructors who use pointless rituals to keep the students blindly believing in what they teach are what corrupts martial arts, and that makes ME want to puke. That's not what I pay for when I train.

Haduken
17-Aug-2005, 02:09 PM
it is a way of stripping away ego (something that could be in need around here after all the puking has been cleaned up). I have never had to do demeaning tasks, but i understand its purpose - so that only those who have no ego, and are really willing to sacrifice there pride are those that will be paid atenttion to - others will end up quitting.

Timmy Boy
17-Aug-2005, 02:15 PM
You call it stripping away ego, I call it instilling a submissive, militaristic attitude. It's a pointless waste of time, I'm not a soldier being trained to obey orders unquestioningly, I'm a civilian learning how to defend myself. If I don't have commitment and I consequently don't learn how to fight that's my problem, I'm the one who wasted my money and time. Those instructors want students who are willing to sacrifice their pride so that they'll abandon all common sense and swallow any crap that gets shoved down their throats. There is a distinction between commitment and blind obedience and that is it.

pgm316
17-Aug-2005, 02:26 PM
Haduken, once again you've completely missed the point. I WANT my instructors to make me train hard. I DON'T want them to be "soft" on me. If I didn't like the hard training, I would just quit. But if I train hard, I want that training to be relevant to learning the martial art. Sweeping the sensei's yard and folding the black belts' gis is not relevant to learning the martial art - it's what people do when they want you to be submissive and obey their orders unquestioningly, like in the army. They want to lord it over you because they either enjoy getting on a power trip, they don't want you questioning what they teach in case you realise it's crap, or both. I'm not complaining about hard training, I'm complaining about pointless training with a sinister ulterior motive.

If they're teaching me something that really works, they don't need to use Traditional Rituals(tm) to test my commitment - they will see my level of commitment from the fact that I keep coming every week despite being made to sweat like a pig each time.

Instructors who use pointless rituals to keep the students blindly believing in what they teach are what corrupts martial arts, and that makes ME want to puke. That's not what I pay for when I train.

Likewise! I'm not after some tai bo style mince around with some happy smiley teachers! I want teachers to train me hard and not treat me harshly for the sake of it.

I started training in martial arts over 20 years ago. I'm not saying that gives me a ticket for an easy ride, I just want some good training. I find the ritual cultish organisations don't deliver.

I trained at one place were even two of the instructors took their children to a different club because they didn't want them to go through what they had. Whats wrong with that picture?

Haduken
17-Aug-2005, 04:38 PM
timmy boy you are missing my point entirely - somehow i feel you are not really engaging in this from an open point of view - but to be honest i don't really care... you can continue to train how you like - i personally do not go to a sadistic militirising MA... and i agree with much of what steve morris has to say on the issue. however, i feel that you don't understand where this style has come from, and what it is really trying to achieve. I agree that there are cultish sensei's out there glossing over a lack of knowledge with harsh and idiotic training rituals - however, not all of these rituals are from without purpose or substance when used by a sensei with a knowledge of what they are looking to find in the students the put through the mill. i train hard and am pushed to my limits regularly, but i am NOT a customer of my sensei... i am his student, the moment a teacher thinks of his students as paying customers, or relies on them to pay his bills he must do something to endeavour to keep them, and much (not all) of the time this results in a watering down of his art form to keep students. I agree I am not asoldier, I am a civilian learning a civilian self defence - but the process of striping away ego, pride, and status from the people in a dojo, is an equalizer - all you are left with in these dojo's is your ability. It does not mean that you must be unquestioning and have blind faith.

Timmy Boy
17-Aug-2005, 06:06 PM
OK then Haduken, I'm going to put it in as straightforward a manner as I can.

Why do you need to get rid of the students' egos before they start training, if you're not trying to make them submissive?

pgm316
17-Aug-2005, 07:44 PM
OK then Haduken, I'm going to put it in as straightforward a manner as I can.

Why do you need to get rid of the students' egos before they start training, if you're not trying to make them submissive?

I think it can counterproductive, I've seen fighters lose confidence in themselves and thats a bad thing to happen to a fighter!

Whenever I teach things I talk to people as I would do a friend. I don't believe it damages the training in any way as it makes it no softer. In many ways its quite the opposite, they'll try and land punches on me were they wouldn't to a God-like instructor.

I prefer people to push themselves instead of needing to be shouted at. It tends to get better results, you can't shout at someone 24/7. They need to take control of their own fitness!

Haduken
18-Aug-2005, 09:51 AM
well i guess you guys must have the only feasible and working teaching methods in the world of MA then huh? god forbid that anything else may have something to offer - espeacially something that isn't seen as part of the modern wave of anti-traditional training methods.
Timmy Boy - if your ego is the only thing that keeps you from being submissive then you have serious issues. Ego is what prevents you from accepting that someone other than yourself has some knowledge worth learning - how are you meant to learn MA if you think you know it all already. It is not making you submissive. I am not saying this training is for everyone either - I don't train like this either guys! all I am doing, is trying to point out that the purpose of these 'old 'school' training methods, when used properly, has purpose and has value. I think an important thing to point out is, that when these methods were common place training was much more scarce and the arts much more secretive. pupils could not just ditch one dojo for another at a whim. If they really wanted to learn they had to make sacrifices. and these methods weeded out the undesirbles- not undesirable in terms of them not being good people, just in the mind of the instrctor, when generally the teacher wanted someone who would continue his style. It has been adopted very poorly in todays MA saturated world into a cultish scenario, where in many cases the people training are deluding themselves into thinking they are part of something grander than is true - but people should not over look the roots of where these methods came from and what they are trying to achieve - they just have to be adopted for the modern world... but how?

pgm316
18-Aug-2005, 10:16 AM
well i guess you guys must have the only feasible and working teaching methods in the world of MA then huh? god forbid that anything else may have something to offer - espeacially something that isn't seen as part of the modern wave of anti-traditional training methods.

The only method? :bang:

I now train the way I want, the way I wished I'd trained years ago and am somewhat bitter about....

I am not saying this training is for everyone either - I don't train like this either guys! all I am doing, is trying to point out that the purpose of these 'old 'school' training methods

I really think the old school methods have to be handled carefully. You need to think what will treating a student in that way benefit them or is it just abuse to see if they'll stay the course? Isn't there more constructive ways to do this?

Haduken: I can see where you coming, and I agree there is good reason for some of the old school methods. And from my experience people actually like it for a couple of years, then a couple of years later they start questioning it, then they'll either get out of there of become part of the system.

GojuKJoe
18-Aug-2005, 10:37 AM
I think those training methods used to be a way to make the students submissive when karate got to Japan, but then they only carried on using it because they were told to, and I believe it only carried on because the students (who are now teachers...) did what they were told because they were made submissive. I don't think many of the modern karateka really knew what they were doing.

If you look back to Okinawa, the training there, was/is nothing like that and is much more relaxed and friendly. That's why I think it is a product of the Japanese brutality at the time karate was changed by them, and should not be continued in modern times.

scorpiousmac
18-Aug-2005, 12:00 PM
OK.Now whilst I would'nt normally open my mouth against someone with that kind of extensive Knowledge I feel that in this day and age there are a lot of karate instructors who are developing the art by adding in street defence and other basic forms of self defence to keep it up to date and maintain its effectiveness on the street(and it iseffective against an untrained person).I'm studying Wado at the moment,and the in and out movement coupled with good footwork and evasive manovers would definitly buy me a few minutes if I needed it.However not sure if I'd need any space as I've caught a couple of my fellow students with the basic front kick and they have gone down like you know what.It is a very powerful kick and my sensei could probably spark out a raging bull with it.

What I'm trying to say is that effectivness is anything that works and there is no way you can write of every move, stratagy and thought in karate as crap :)

Timmy Boy
29-Aug-2005, 06:58 PM
Haduken, most people who start martial arts lessons don't think they know it all already. That's why they go. If an instructor sees a cocky prat in his lesson he can just kick him out. There's no need to degrade the rest of the honest students to weed out the bad apples.

ALPHADEANO
30-Aug-2005, 09:04 AM
Bring back the harsh training, thats what I say, bring back the beatings with wooden swords and pain.


If you want to train easily or not brutaly or with out respect then train with those people.
If you want to train technically or fitness wise then train with those people.
If you want to train as a hobby then train with those people.
If you want to stop wasting time arguing over crap, then just train with the right people and leave the clubs you dont like.

Personally I train as a hobby , but if I were to be a proffesional fighter I would want to train with people like Steve Morris.

Any way lifes to short. Find a club that suits your needs and stop arguing about crap. :cool:

ALPHADEANO
30-Aug-2005, 09:12 AM
. But if I train hard, I want that training to be relevant to learning the martial art. Sweeping the sensei's yard and folding the black belts' gis is not relevant to learning the martial art - it's what people do when they want you to be submissive and obey their orders unquestioningly, like in the army. They want to lord it over you because they either enjoy getting on a power trip, they don't want you questioning what they teach in case you realise it's crap, or both. I'm not complaining about hard training, I'm complaining about pointless training with a sinister ulterior motive..

Did you never watch the karate kid, sweep the floor.
As for " asinister ulteria motive" Mr miagi bought Danial son a car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for "like in the army".

Martial arts stands for :- Military arts, the art of war, and fighting, it originates from armies.

Any way, all the best.

Timmy Boy
30-Aug-2005, 12:51 PM
The karate kid was a film, and if you don't like us "arguing about crap" why are you reading this thread?

Sonshu
30-Aug-2005, 01:24 PM
well i guess you guys must have the only feasible and working teaching methods in the world of MA then huh? god forbid that anything else may have something to offer - espeacially something that isn't seen as part of the modern wave of anti-traditional training methods.
Timmy Boy - if your ego is the only thing that keeps you from being submissive then you have serious issues. Ego is what prevents you from accepting that someone other than yourself has some knowledge worth learning - how are you meant to learn MA if you think you know it all already. It is not making you submissive. I am not saying this training is for everyone either - I don't train like this either guys! all I am doing, is trying to point out that the purpose of these 'old 'school' training methods, when used properly, has purpose and has value. I think an important thing to point out is, that when these methods were common place training was much more scarce and the arts much more secretive. pupils could not just ditch one dojo for another at a whim. If they really wanted to learn they had to make sacrifices. and these methods weeded out the undesirbles- not undesirable in terms of them not being good people, just in the mind of the instrctor, when generally the teacher wanted someone who would continue his style. It has been adopted very poorly in todays MA saturated world into a cultish scenario, where in many cases the people training are deluding themselves into thinking they are part of something grander than is true - but people should not over look the roots of where these methods came from and what they are trying to achieve - they just have to be adopted for the modern world... but how?

Haduken for the record Timmy Boy trains with me and has done for a few months so I understand where he is comming from.

In our class I hate to refer to anyone as a Student of mine or for them to refer to me as Instrcutor or Student etc. It is simple mate, oye etc.

There is no ego in our class and I like to think of it as our class. We all have a part to play and something to offer. Now perhaps I might have been training the longest but there is still other influences that can show me a better way of doing things.

This is more the MMA way, its not right or wrong its 100% about what works for you and this is something I very rarely enounter outside of the MMA type circles.

The menial tasks often seen in films can and are imposed on students but the few times someone has tried to MAKE me do these I feel it inflates there ego rather than drives mine out.

And my reply was always pretty swift like - Your having a laugh eh?

There is no need for it in this day and age and it should not be acceptable.

ALPHADEANO
30-Aug-2005, 04:41 PM
The karate kid was a film, and if you don't like us "arguing about crap" why are you reading this thread?

I was intrested about "Steve Morris article on Karate and fascism"

Why are you reading this thread?

Timmy Boy
30-Aug-2005, 04:51 PM
I was intrested about "Steve Morris article on Karate and fascism"

Why are you reading this thread?

Because I thought the article would be interesting and I like discussing things.

Is is really much of a surprise for you that people are debating the issues involved on a forum?

ALPHADEANO
30-Aug-2005, 05:16 PM
No

Timmy Boy
30-Aug-2005, 06:58 PM
No

Then why did you say this:

Find a club that suits your needs and stop arguing about crap.

if it came as no surprise to you?

ALPHADEANO
30-Aug-2005, 08:15 PM
I Dont Know

ALPHADEANO
30-Aug-2005, 08:17 PM
Actually I do know but am too tired to explain.
Another time.
All the best

Sonshu
31-Aug-2005, 07:42 AM
Actually I do know but am too tired to explain.
Another time.
All the best

When you feel like explaining read my reply earlier as it will make sense.

ALPHADEANO
01-Sep-2005, 08:57 PM
Yes basically what I was trying to say is :) that, there is more than one way.
And you have to follow the way that is correct for you.
If you dont like a regime of cleaning the training hall ect, dont train with them.

All the best!

Sonshu
02-Sep-2005, 07:20 AM
If you are the club cleaner then you are being taken advantage of.

moononthewater
02-Sep-2005, 09:21 PM
Is this still dragging on just because its not the way you do things it does not mean its wrong there are plenty of clubs that are run this way with no problems what so ever. As has been all ready said if people dont wish to do these tasks they know where the door is. Its not being taken advantage of its the way it is. I have cleaned more than a few Dojo floors i cannot see what the problem is. Im sure you check your mats are clean and are not damaged. I had this chat with TB earlier you like things done your way but yours is not the only way. Thats the way of martial arts we all have different ideas on how to reach a goal yours is no more right than any one else`s.

Timmy Boy
02-Sep-2005, 10:57 PM
Is this still dragging on just because its not the way you do things it does not mean its wrong there are plenty of clubs that are run this way with no problems what so ever. As has been all ready said if people dont wish to do these tasks they know where the door is. Its not being taken advantage of its the way it is. I have cleaned more than a few Dojo floors i cannot see what the problem is. Im sure you check your mats are clean and are not damaged. I had this chat with TB earlier you like things done your way but yours is not the only way. Thats the way of martial arts we all have different ideas on how to reach a goal yours is no more right than any one else`s.

Oh for christ's sake, people on this site just don't read properly. I give up.

Sonshu
03-Sep-2005, 06:39 PM
Is this still dragging on just because its not the way you do things it does not mean its wrong there are plenty of clubs that are run this way with no problems what so ever. As has been all ready said if people dont wish to do these tasks they know where the door is. Its not being taken advantage of its the way it is. I have cleaned more than a few Dojo floors i cannot see what the problem is. Im sure you check your mats are clean and are not damaged. I had this chat with TB earlier you like things done your way but yours is not the only way. Thats the way of martial arts we all have different ideas on how to reach a goal yours is no more right than any one else`s.

In modern arts the instructor takes the task of ensuring equip is ok to use and safe as he is supposed to be the one in charge or at least its his insurance.

zenbaseballbat
07-Sep-2005, 04:07 AM
hi,
Back to steve morris...i trained with him for a while while i was studying in the uk, only about 6 months or so I think. Its true he doesnt suffer fools gladly, but he really knows his stuff. He is a driven guy, and is able to break stuff down into its components and biomechanics unlike anyone ive ever met.

I had studied a few years of karate, and a few years of silat as well as a bit of kickboxing. He was way over my head, what i had learnt previously was rubbish, and he opened my eyes to training methods and principles; although I must say i was not of a competent level enough to grasp it fully. I stopped training following a car crash (actually on the way to train), and later moved to the US. What i remember really well about him was that he always adapts, evaluates, and improves his methods....he's always researching and growing.

He was teaching wrestling to his students at a technically good level, much better than a lot of MMA were demonstrating in competitions that i saw in the UK. I remember that i learnt to double the power of my front kick in a few minutes of him showing how to improve it.

I think he runs seminars now, but im not 100% sure.

Like him or hate him, he's a phenominal martial artist! Personally I found him a very interesting, intelligent and funny guy, but I wouldnt want to be on the wrong side of him.

Sonshu
07-Sep-2005, 12:49 PM
So even your kickboxing was rubbish?

Moosey
07-Sep-2005, 01:13 PM
So even your kickboxing was rubbish?

You didn't know rubbish kickboxing existed?

Haduken
07-Sep-2005, 02:18 PM
steve morris is a phenemenal martial artist of the type that only appears once in a great while... but there are many different paths that all go up the same mountain - or, if you prefer, theres more than one way to skin a cat

Sonshu
07-Sep-2005, 05:45 PM
You didn't know rubbish kickboxing existed?

I can honestly say I have never been to a bad kickboxing class in 14 years (not counting cardio kickboxing).

I have however been to plenty of shoddy TKD, and Karate schools passing themselves off as Kickboxing. However as soon as I arrived the belts and gi's /tkd outfits gave it away.

Nope never a bad kickboxing school.

Haduken
08-Sep-2005, 10:21 AM
funny, cause personally i have never been to a kickboxing class that i thought wasn't rubbish (not including MT of course) :D

Sonshu
08-Sep-2005, 10:35 AM
Which ones have you been to then - please share or have you been to 1 club.

One reason why kickboxing works is its simple.

Moosey
08-Sep-2005, 11:12 AM
I can honestly say I have never been to a bad kickboxing class in 14 years (not counting cardio kickboxing).

I have however been to plenty of shoddy TKD, and Karate schools passing themselves off as Kickboxing. However as soon as I arrived the belts and gi's /tkd outfits gave it away.

Nope never a bad kickboxing school.

So the bad ones cease to be "kickboxing" on account of them being bad? I could just as easily say plenty of crappy kickboxing schools try to pass themselves off as TMAs by wearing gis.

Sonshu
08-Sep-2005, 12:03 PM
So the bad ones cease to be "kickboxing" on account of them being bad? I could just as easily say plenty of crappy kickboxing schools try to pass themselves off as TMAs by wearing gis.

Well tell me then which ones - anyone any bad Kickboxing Schools.

A few decades ago the trend was many Karate Instructors started claiming they were kickboxing schools and in reality it was Kickboxing.

No crap is still crap but I have to date not been to what I class as a kickboxing gym where there is a huge emphasis on drill and focus mit work and sparring. There is no learning Japanese or Korean etc and the focus is on the Kickboxing competition rules.

This is Kickboxing

Haduken
08-Sep-2005, 12:11 PM
equally sonshu, do you not feel, if you are a kickboxer, that you will seek out the good ones... of course you do, if i am looking for a club in a style that i know about, i try and find the best ones... i cannot, unfortunately tell you the names of the kickboxing clubs that i went to... i didn't go back to them, but there has been a few... i don't see why you are getting bent out of shape over this, of course there are crappy kickboxing clubs, just as i know that even thoughi havent been to one, there are many very good clubs, in fact there is a place around the corner from my work at the moment, the guy started Ma in kickboxing 2 years ago and he is now a kickboxing instructor! not a chance i am gonna go there, but i bet if i did it would be crap, 1 dimensional... i am sure i could get a good work out, but that is about the limit of it...

Sonshu
09-Sep-2005, 10:12 AM
equally sonshu, do you not feel, if you are a kickboxer, that you will seek out the good ones... of course you do, if i am looking for a club in a style that i know about, i try and find the best ones... i cannot, unfortunately tell you the names of the kickboxing clubs that i went to... i didn't go back to them, but there has been a few... i don't see why you are getting bent out of shape over this, of course there are crappy kickboxing clubs, just as i know that even thoughi havent been to one, there are many very good clubs, in fact there is a place around the corner from my work at the moment, the guy started Ma in kickboxing 2 years ago and he is now a kickboxing instructor! not a chance i am gonna go there, but i bet if i did it would be crap, 1 dimensional... i am sure i could get a good work out, but that is about the limit of it...


Not at all it could well be very good as 2 years good training is better than 6 years poor training.

If a club competes then it will be of a good standing, there are a lot of clubs who claim to teach Kickboxing but it is plainly not a proper kickboxing club with competing fighters will be good.

Kickboxing is not aimed at self defence it is a combat sport which happens to often be applicable. If its a self defence club that claims kickboxing then that is not kickboxing.

2 years he could be a good fighter. Taking one of my guys Chris who posts here as Randall - for 6-8 months training I am confident he can defend himself and he has assisted me on some teaching as I encorage all my class to do bits after they have been there.

I was watching a Karate Class last night and I would have put money on Chris taking anyone out in the class (8 out of 12 were dan grade). Simply because he trained for a different purpose.

6-8 months and Chris has stuff to teach to people so dismissing a 2 year guy is for my money the wrong attitude.

Haduken
09-Sep-2005, 10:50 AM
it is a difficult issue i admit, and perhaps i was slightly provocative, to get a response, but my point was simply that you seem to be suggesting, without exception, that there is no such thing as a bad kickboxing club... I fully admit that there are many, many many truly terrible karate clubs, so much so that i wish they were not called karate (and indeed many of them I do not class as karate personally), but be that as it may, they call themselves karate, just as what you may not consider a kickboxing club, calls itself one... thus degrading a name that you hold in esteem... i have been to some bad clubs, they do exist, no matter how much you wish they didn't

Sonshu
09-Sep-2005, 11:31 AM
it is a difficult issue i admit, and perhaps i was slightly provocative, to get a response, but my point was simply that you seem to be suggesting, without exception, that there is no such thing as a bad kickboxing club... I fully admit that there are many, many many truly terrible karate clubs, so much so that i wish they were not called karate (and indeed many of them I do not class as karate personally), but be that as it may, they call themselves karate, just as what you may not consider a kickboxing club, calls itself one... thus degrading a name that you hold in esteem... i have been to some bad clubs, they do exist, no matter how much you wish they didn't

It is not a case of wish they did not - my point is the name does not make it what it is.

What it is and what it does defines it.

Kickboxing anyone with an ounce of generic martial arts experience will know kickboxing is a sporting art and does not define itself as a self defence art but this is a by product of good training. As said its a combat sport and anyone serious about training will know and spot this when they arrive or after a few weeks when you start researching your art as you get into it. Experienced people will spot a herring immediatly.

Haduken
09-Sep-2005, 04:00 PM
i agree, nobaody has said that kickboxing is anything other than a combat sport, the bad kickboxing gyms i went to certainly didn't... but again, i know what you mean - and it is exactly where i stand with the so called karate clubs - in my opinion karate is not a sport... sport is a by product, other people see it differently... thats just the way it is... a rose by any other name, eh?

Sonshu
10-Sep-2005, 12:11 PM
Yet the councils and organisations set up to promote and direct the arts do nothing about closing down and distancing themselves from bad schools or clubs.

You can see why these problems persist.

Haduken
12-Sep-2005, 10:00 AM
personally i think the problem comes from these so called organisations... all they do is further fracture and segregate the arts with politics and semantics which are irrelevant to the common foundations which all arts follow.

personally i prefered it back in the day, if a 'mcdojo' opened up and started bastardising your art, you would get a few schools together and go round and shut them down. Unfortunately now (like GKR) they will just sue you

Sonshu
12-Sep-2005, 10:18 AM
True but you can work to affect there reputation and raise your own or to indicate these groups and organisations are really poor.

So long as your training speaks volumes then attend a few of there classes and show your skills. People will ask and that then gives you the floor.

Advertising and others are options.