Belts in JKD?

[Marku]

Is there a belt system in JKD?

[jkdberlin]

No. Our belts are there to keep the pants up.

Greetings

[Marku]

Ah ok. And how do you know ur learning proberly?

[Andrew Green]

Your nose gets impacted less, and you spend less time taping?

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
Your nose gets impacted less, and you spend less time taping?

GOOD Answer!

Validation from within will always have more value than validation from outside!

BUT..... the vast majoroty of JKD based clubs that I know of do not have belts. They have "phases" or "levels" and sometimes different T-Shirts for each level. I don't see the difference between that and a belt.

[AndyD]

A lot of the clubs I've seen have only a black belt - which signifies intructor level. However, this is just a grade and is nothing to do with actually wearing a black belt.

[YODA]

I really don't get this JKD thing with belts. It's almost as if they are (gasp) saying that (gulp) because Bruce Lee didn't have them - they can't!

If you find them useful - use them.

So many hang ups for a supposedly "liberated" method :D

[johndoch]

Are they needed I dont think so. Just seems like the start of some other classical mess. Or another reason to charge for gradings etc :(

[AndyD]

Originally posted by YODA
So many hang ups for a supposedly "liberated" method :D [/B]

This unfortunately seems to be the way of modern JKD.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by YODA
GOOD Answer!

Validation from within will always have more value than validation from outside!

BUT..... the vast majoroty of JKD based clubs that I know of do not have belts. They have "phases" or "levels" and sometimes different T-Shirts for each level. I don't see the difference between that and a belt.

I like that answer YODA!

Belts have many uses, but take the self validation away.

I don't want my training goals to be those of the next grading, I don't want to feel satisfied because of the colour of my belt.

I really feel it takes the focus off what MA's is supposed to be, the worst thing is how people drift off soon after they get BB :o

[Marku]

I would never stop at black belt. I'd keep going till i cant go no further. ^_^

Did bruce eva finish learning wingchun? are any parts of wingchun in JKD?(principles or anything)

[pgm316]

Marku, therein lies the weakness of the belt system, those it manages to motivate to black belt suddenly loose motivation. the belt they wear says you've done it!

[johndoch]

the only good thing about belts is that they let new students know the hierachy of the club and who "should" know more about the system they are learning

[AndyD]

I never lost motivation when I got mine - but I did think "but I've still got so much to learn!"

As for gradings I never did any. I was evaluated (unknown to me) for a long period of time. This is the best way in my opinion (but there again it would be LOL).

Andy

[pgm316]

I like the way you was graded AndyD!

You must have a greater feeling of earning it as opposed to the vast majority of people that get belts more or less by attendance at the grading, hwo is this supposed to be a good hirachy system?

[AndyD]

I felt like I'd earned them (I have 2 under different instructors) and I knew that I could do what my instructors expected of me (as opposed to managing to pull it off on the day). I know I was tested a lot on knowledge, understanding, teaching ability etc - how do you test these skills in a traditional grading?

[YODA]

I've had both types of grading and can honestly say I value the performance based test more.

My instructorship under my JKD instructor was tested - both in technical knowledge and physical performance.

My Doce Pares 2nd Degree Black Belt was a 4 hour physical test and pushed me beyond what I thought were my limits - my 4th Degree was an "award" which, although "nice", does not carry with it the same sense of achievement as the 2nd Degree.

[AndyD]

IMO like most things in life they both have value when done correctly and little value when done incorrectly. We've all seen examples of both sides of this.

[YODA]

Amen!

[Chlo]

We do gradings but they're called levels and you don't get a belt and classes aren't really structured round them and there isn't a hierachy in the class because of it or anything. I like that system because although I've only done 3 gradings (though there ominous rumblings about doing more soon as apparently I should have done more) they all really pushed me physically and it gave me confidence to be able to show my techniques under pressure. I think it gives you a sense of achievement to have survived them (let alone passed lol) and lets you know you are improving...though I could do without the hands shaking so I couldn't do my make-up afterwards!

[pug32]

My kickboxing club uses the belts (6 in total) but puts more emphasis on fights than belts. They do make you work for them though, the orange belt which is 3rd of the six consisted of three hours and finished with eight rounds sparring with a fresh opponent coming in each round! My instructor always said i don't want anyone coming to this club and you not to be able to say you earned it.

My JKD club has no belts or variations in t shirts, most of the students come from a wide variety of different arts so everyone has their differing strengths.

Initially i always wanted to reach black belt standard but as i have progressed it has become less important to me. At the moment (primarily since changing to JKD) they have lost their importance, and seem restricive going against the original principles, how could you grade something that is supposed to be formless? The need to have some sort of test for instructors i think is necessary, the purpose being as i see is that on completion your instructor is happy for you to represent him / her but then you add or remove parts as you see fit you are not bound by what worked for them

This could easily turn into a has JKD turned into a restrictive style thread:D

[thiaboxr2]

There are no present belt rankings. But there always "levels" of students. Some schools may have a particular symbol on their uniform to designate their position in the school. Other schools will simply go by how many hours you have logged in your training. Then again, some will go by your actual skill of the art to determine wether you will begin advanced techniques.
Now a days, JKD is considered a style and some schools have belt rankings for the students. Bruce Lee never intended to give belts to his students because he was trying to open their eyes and show them that they can express themselves freely and not be bound by set techniques. There is no fixed teaching. All I can provide is an appropriate medicine for a particular ailment. Bruce Lee.

[HKD]

the hole rank belt thing is silly. there is rank with or without belts. levels, phases full instructor, aprentice instructor. it's rank with or without belts. U can't have an art or style without rank who's the teacher/instructor? teacher is rank, U can't let the new guy teach can U? the new guy thats his rank, bigginer level 2,3 what ever belts or not. i met a wing chun guy a few months ago and i asked him what his rank was, he rolled his eyes and said "WC doesn't use rank like U little art , im a senior instructor level 5" and i asked "isn't that Ur RANK ass hole" i left off the ass hole part.

HKD

[YODA]

I agree - rank = level = belt.

So may people focussing in the finger :D

[Andrew Green]

I agree, but there is a difference between a rank and a position.

If we where in the military my rank might be Lt. and my position Platoon Commander.

Platoon Commander is not a rank, it is a position.

"Instructor" can be a position as well, although some people treat it as a rank, but it doesn't have to be treated that way.

Rank is not needed, but poisitions are.

It is the difference between someone being ranked as instructor, and someone being in the position of instructor.

[YODA]

.......good points.

But - don't positions require rank?

Would they let a Private be a Platoon Commander?

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by YODA
.......good points.

But - don't positions require rank?

Would they let a Private be a Platoon Commander?

In extreme circumstances(everyone above has been killed), yes.

But the point is that Rank and position are seperate, you could have position without rank, but not rank without position. In the military their is both.

If you had a group of privates and wanted them to do something, you would appoint one as the leader, they all would have the same rank, but that one would be in command.

Even if their where a couple Cpl's in there, you could still appoint a Private to the leadership position. Usually that wouldn't happen, but it can and does.

[gooner]

jkd has no belts or ranks its more of a journey or a process in which each individual is at a different understanding in their progression towards liberation.

[LS]

some do some don't. but what's the point of ranking when on any given day you may lose in a confrontation.

[Hannibal]

Belts are a way to earn money for the instructor - and good luck to them. In many cases this is their living - they don't teach just for fun!

Belts are also indicative of a western mind. We like to focus on short incremental steps rather than the journey as a whole. Also be honest, who would go an train with a club run by a yellow belt? No-one.

As to rank and position they are not seperate. A position is given through ability which equates to rank. In extreme circumstances (like the one given about the platoon being dead) then position goes without rank. However, the ability still needs to be present. An "Assistant Instructor" must be able to perform to a set standard or they cannot instruct. In other words they are graded.

[Hannibal]

Originally posted by JKD-SD619
some do some don't. but what's the point of ranking when on any given day you may lose in a confrontation.

If that is the only reason you judge an individual then fine - but are you saying that many disabled people shouldn't be awarded belts because they cannot win fights?

What is the point of training when on any given day you can lose a confrontation?

Try and remember that 99% of your life is NOT spent fighting. If it is your raison d'etre you have a very shallow life

[LS]

hannibal... I wasn't judging anyone. I'm just saying don't let the rank get to the head that's all. are you saying that disabled people are incapable of defending themselves? physical presence is only one part of the equation.

Why use belts? do people need something to tell them that they're good at whey they do? are some that desperate for self esteem ? I mean what are we gonna do now? hand out progressive belts for getting better at using common sense?

[Tireces]

Some sort of certification system is necessary for any martial art that intends to produce more teachers of it. The specifics of how it works and what is used as the token of certification doesn't matter much, so long as it accomplishes the goal of letting it be known whether or not someone is qualified to teach something to another someone, or if they just started yesterday. If it's a belt, a piece of paper, a new outfit/uniform, a cookie, who cares?

[YODA]

The token matters not. The integrity of the award does. I've seen instructorships in JKD given out like candy after a handfull of seminars. I've seen the recipients then go off and award the same to other people in similar circumstances.

It sux.

It's great for business - but it sux.

[LS]

both of you guys have good points. I know my JKD instructor just got his first instructor rank from tim tackett and his guys after two and a half years of dedicated training. He told me it only made him wanna work harder

[FullContactKid]

We have a shirt ranking system at my school, white= beginner , red= intermidiate, black= advanced and when you get certified you become an instructor. The belt thing doesnt make sense if you dont wear a gi, so why have them? Its not because Bruce Lee didnt have them, its just because its lame to wear something that has no function while your learning. Now when I go to Jiu Jitsu class I wear a belt but only to keep my gi top closed. When I practice JKD i usually do so in the school shirt and shorts, and the shorts fit so theres no reason for a belt =)

[Tireces]

Originally posted by YODA
The token matters not. The integrity of the award does. I've seen instructorships in JKD given out like candy after a handfull of seminars.

Well, that would be an instance where the certification doesn't do its job.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Tireces
Well, that would be an instance where the certification doesn't do its job.


That depends on what it's intended job is.

[Tireces]

It SHOULD be to demonstrate that someone is qualified to be teaching the art to others, and has gained such qualification by years of no only physical training, but intellectual training as well. If the certification is not doing this, then it is not doing its job.

[YODA]

Agreed 100%

[arnisador]

Where I study JKD, the instructor uses an internal belt system. I understand it's for his convenience in placing exactly what stsudents must work on--he doesn't charge for the tests or even for the actual (physical) belts he gives people.

[shuyun3]

i find the belt system to restricted. there are more things to consider in a person's progress.

without sounding corny i suggest a sash with merit badges (like those used by boy scouts). Each badge can mean a progress in a certain skill like a grappling and striking badge etc. then the badges themselves have color.

obviously this would be cumbersome in sparring. exactly with that point in mind i suggest it only be worn during ceremony only. this symbolizes that in a combat situation there is no such thing as rank. a complete novice can kill a master in the street.

i know it's a little deviated from the rest of the thread but i see my suggestion as relevant

[Karate Kid]

Quote: "Your nose gets impacted less, and you spend less time taping?"
LoL. A good answer. But still... I'd like to see a grade system.

[Ad McG]

The token matters not. The integrity of the award does. I've seen instructorships in JKD given out like candy after a handfull of seminars. I've seen the recipients then go off and award the same to other people in similar circumstances.

It sux.

It's great for business - but it sux.

Would you include a certain local Manchester school in that category by any chance?!? :D

[YODA]

Would you include a certain local Manchester school in that category by any chance?!? :D

Probably - but we may not be talking about the same one :Angel:

[Stxsas]

Belts Belts... In Impact Academy they use a coloured shirts to distinguish the 3+ phases they have, it is not seen as a 'level of skill thing' but rather a goal to get to by the student. It keeps them motivated and wanting more!!

ps sorry for grammer/spelling its 1:40 in the mornin and i just finished a 10 hour shift :(

[cj256]

Would you include a certain local Manchester school in that category by any chance?!? :D
sorry to butt in there , which mcr school would you
be refering to?
i train jkd in manc and im intertested to know your views!!!
thanks.

[jaymdubbs]

i like what my instructor is doing. he makes checklists of different techniques, theories, and principles and creates a **** load of boxes, each box representing an hours worth of practice. theres no rank, think of it as a document training schedule. i guess some day down the road when i learn enough ill just take my instructor test, however long that may be. when im ready i guess.