So you're giving up your possessions to be a Buddhist? ERROR!!

[Strafio]

There's the typical stereotypical view of becoming a Buddhist.
Giving up everything to find inner peace.
They see that a Buddhist needs not these things with inner peace so try to follow suit.
Well congratulations on throwing away your crutches. See if walking on your broken legs helps you find inner peace... :rolleyes:

You see, the way I see it, possessions, attachments, ambitions, they're not holding you back. They're your crutches. You have them because you, in your psychological state, "need" them. You lean on your crutches because it is harder to live without them, and yes, it would be better to be "enlightened" but perhaps it would be better to heal your legs than throw away your support in an attempt to toughen up.

You see, I think people get too caught up in the symptoms of samsara, thinking that if they cover up the symptoms then they'll just get better. Personally, I think that the more you find yourself, the closer you come enlightenment, the more you find you don't need these crutches, that you can walk freely. If you just deprive yourself of things you feel you need, then you're only going to increase your suffering! :p

So let it be known that you don't become enlightened by throwing attachments away, you just find yourself less attached the more enlightened you are.


Isn't another thing we are supposed to let go of is ambition?
But to be free of all attachments and bad feelings, isn't that an ambition?
So it's a dilemna.
On the one hand you want yourself to be free of suffering, but to do so you must rid yourself off this ambition.

Maybe the problem is that some people see enlightenment as a destination, rather than a growth or journey. Again, if you judge enlightenment by it's symptoms then you get a view of it from the outside. You want to see it in a mirror rather than experience it. So maybe instead of focusing on what an "enlightened" one is, maybe we should forget it all and just find ourselves in our most relaxed, natural, state. These symptoms should merely be incentives to get us started. We see people walking freely so we start the healing on our legs so that one day we can walk without our crutches.

So you don't stop yourself from owning possessions, you just don't let it upset you if you lose them. You don't stop yourself from getting attached to things, you just understand when it's time for change and separation. You don't avoid ambition, you just find that even if you do have plans and ambitions for the future that they don't steal the present from you.
Buddhism isn't a case of "stop doing this" or "don't do this", it's more of a case of eventually finding that you don't need to "do this", that you just don't want to...

I sometimes get the feeling that people who seem so self-sacrificing don't feel like they're sacrificing anything at all. :)


Did that make sense to anyone? :)

[Visage]

Hmmm, very interesting...

[myki]

You see, the way I see it, possessions, attachments, ambitions, they're not holding you back. They're your crutches. You have them because you, in your psychological state, "need" them. You lean on your crutches because it is harder to live without them, and yes, it would be better to be "enlightened" but perhaps it would be better to heal your legs than throw away your support in an attempt to toughen up.

You see, I think people get too caught up in the symptoms of samsara, thinking that if they cover up the symptoms then they'll just get better. Personally, I think that the more you find yourself, the closer you come enlightenment, the more you find you don't need these crutches, that you can walk freely. If you just deprive yourself of things you feel you need, then you're only going to increase your suffering! :p

So let it be known that you don't become enlightened by throwing attachments away, you just find yourself less attached the more enlightened you are.

Isn't another thing we are supposed to let go of is ambition?
But to be free of all attachments and bad feelings, isn't that an ambition?
So it's a dilemna.
On the one hand you want yourself to be free of suffering, but to do so you must rid yourself off this ambition.

Maybe the problem is that some people see enlightenment as a destination, rather than a growth or journey. Again, if you judge enlightenment by it's symptoms then you get a view of it from the outside. You want to see it in a mirror rather than experience it. So maybe instead of focusing on what an "enlightened" one is, maybe we should forget it all and just find ourselves in our most relaxed, natural, state. These symptoms should merely be incentives to get us started. We see people walking freely so we start the healing on our legs so that one day we can walk without our crutches.

So you don't stop yourself from owning possessions, you just don't let it upset you if you lose them. You don't stop yourself from getting attached to things, you just understand when it's time for change and separation. You don't avoid ambition, you just find that even if you do have plans and ambitions for the future that they don't steal the present from you.
Buddhism isn't a case of "stop doing this" or "don't do this", it's more of a case of eventually finding that you don't need to "do this", that you just don't want to...


I like what you say, for the most part.

I would go a touch further and say they are indeed your crutches for your ego. Too many people fall into the commercialized and pop culture trap of “you are what you own.” They identify themselves by job, salary, car, square footage of a house and location. One tornado or fire, or one stock market crash and what are you left with?

I think for devout Buddhists, giving up worldly possessions is a way of stripping off the material world and starting over. We, in the material world, are at one end of the 'stuff' spectrum while monks and nuns are at the other. Finding that middle ground is the trick!

In a sense enlightenment also stems from knowing your place in the world. We must realize that we are all connected on some level. If I make a ton of money, then I am in the financial position to help with charities, shelters or soup kitchens. I could also choose not to and just hoard my money, but that would serve no one but my ego.
If I don’t make a lot of money I could at least volunteer with a charity. If I physically can’t volunteer, I can write letters of support. If I can’t write, I hope that someone will be enlightened enough to help me. We are all connected!

[Strafio]

Ego is your sense of self, right?
I'd more say that the ego is just another crutch...
The more time you spend thinking about "self", the less time you're being yourself.
The thing is, monitoring yourself and telling yourself not to think about yourself is a way of thinking about yourself. It's that mirror thing again.

Wheras the more time you spend "being" yourself (which you do the more enlightened you become), you just forget there was a "self" to think about...
I think that the best way to get over these crutches is to forget that you have them, forget that they're even a "bad" thing, infact forget everything...

I guess that's what "emptiness" is all about. :)

[myki]

Ego is your sense of self, right?
I'd more say that the ego is just another crutch...
The more time you spend thinking about "self", the less time you're being yourself.
The thing is, monitoring yourself and telling yourself not to think about yourself is a way of thinking about yourself. It's that mirror thing again.

Wheras the more time you spend "being" yourself (which you do the more enlightened you become), you just forget there was a "self" to think about...
I think that the best way to get over these crutches is to forget that you have them, forget that they're even a "bad" thing, infact forget everything...

I guess that's what "emptiness" is all about. :)

Well, yes…in a way.

Your ‘self’, in my opinion, is made of many things-experiences, customs, habits etc of which ego is one.
Ego is the driving force that compares you to others. Ego determines your worth through what you own, what you look like, where you live, and so on.

For some ego is not just another crutch, they’ve made it the main support beam. I don’t think merely forgetting about ego or self will work because habit will creep into the picture.

I’m of a mind to recognize ego and other ‘crutches’ when they appear, accept them for what they are and be mindful of them. Doing this puts me in charge of them instead of vice versa. Otherwise you will be at war with yourself constantly. Don’t get caught up in the ‘mirror thing’ as you call it.

If you can do that and not make decisions based on the crutches, IMO, that is enlightened living. Not forgetting ‘self’ or casting it aside but accepting and recognizing when it appears.

What do you think?

Cheers!

[Strafio]

That sounds closer to what I'm thinking.
I'm still early on and pretty confused about pretty much everything.

I probably need to step up my practice, meditate more...
Thing is, when I say it like that, I end up thinking that meditation is what I "should" do. It kind of becomes a stepping stone in some "ambition" to be relaxed and enlightened.
Although I think I'm making a little progress by doing Sui Lim Tao, a Wing Chun form which is very close to Tai Chi Style meditation.

I think that the more I use it as a tool and "feel" relaxation instead of thinking "this is what to do"... but hey, enlightenments a journey, not a destination. I'll walk my path somehow. :)

[myki]

You know what you're talking about, by what you've written.

Like Ray Bradbury said in "Zen and the Art of Writing":
"Work, relax, don't think."

Cheers!

[Blooming Lotus]

Ditto.

BL

[Socrastein]

I like it Strafio, very interesting thread.

If I might sum it up thusly:

Enlightenment does not come from ridding yourself of attachments, ridding yourself of attachments comes from enlightenment.

[Strafio]

Yeah. That's pretty much it. :)

[hunnysan]

Being raised as a buddhist..i don't see how you can call it "attachments" the point of goin on the path of righteousness is not to let go of all things...and to become none or self-less.. it is mostly like someone said earlier..it is to let go of all material things..and surround urself with nature..

Being without guidence or support is not what finding enlightment is, juss like buddha did at first...he starved himself on the search for nirvana..., but he came to realize that the right path is in the middle..to not starve your body but not not depend on it either.

So when you speak of attachment you realize and letting it go or using it as a 'crutch'. There are many things that you might think you 'need' but really it is something you want..not need.

-dj hunny

[shotokanwarrior]

On the one hand you want yourself to be free of suffering, but to do so you must rid yourself off this ambition.


Sorry if this is vulgar but I'm not even going to try and intellectualize it. They're all stuck up their own arses. Ambition is not a sin/vice/affliction, it's perfectly natural. I want to be a rock musician, is that a vice/affliction? Perhaps I should throw all the materials for my Open University degree in the dustbin and sit around all day meditating and contemplating the meaning of the universe, because that's 'seeking inner peace'. Yeah, and I'm going to stay alive and earn a living exactly how when I'm older?

People who preach things like that need a slap in the face, the lot of them.

[jonmonk]

Sorry if this is vulgar but I'm not even going to try and intellectualize it.
So I see.

They're all stuck up their own arses.
No they're not.

Ambition is not a sin/vice/affliction, it's perfectly natural.
Yes it is natural. It can also become an affliction.

I want to be a rock musician, is that a vice/affliction?
That depends. Again, it could become an affliction (it has for many rock musicians in the past).

Perhaps I should throw all the materials for my Open University degree in the dustbin and sit around all day meditating and contemplating the meaning of the universe, because that's 'seeking inner peace'.
If that's what you want to do but no one asked you to.

Yeah, and I'm going to stay alive and earn a living exactly how when I'm older?
Working like everyone else. Anyway, I thought you said you wanted to be a rock star. What's the OU course all about?

People who preach things like that need a slap in the face, the lot of them.
Sounds to me like your the one doing the preaching.

[bcullen]

Sorry if this is vulgar but I'm not even going to try and intellectualize it. They're all stuck up their own arses. Ambition is not a sin/vice/affliction, it's perfectly natural. I want to be a rock musician, is that a vice/affliction? Perhaps I should throw all the materials for my Open University degree in the dustbin and sit around all day meditating and contemplating the meaning of the universe, because that's 'seeking inner peace'. Yeah, and I'm going to stay alive and earn a living exactly how when I'm older?

People who preach things like that need a slap in the face, the lot of them.

You have focused on a single line and seemed to have missed the point being made. As hunnysan mentioned; Siddhartha (Buddha pre-divinity) tried the path of self depravation to enlightenment only to discover that the answer lay in the middleground.

What they are saying is many try to find a shorcut to enlightenment by removing all "vices" (for lack of a better term). The "If I throw away all my goods and stop trying I will be enlightened, right?" quick fix. When in reality as you become more enlightened these things will carry less weight to you.

A minister I met once told me about a new convert who was regailing him with all the things he had given up to be a good Christian. He told him that was fine but then asked him what he had done to be a good Christian. Being <insert name> is not about what you don't do, but about what you do.

[shotokanwarrior]

Anyway, I thought you said you wanted to be a rock star

Yes, I do. It's just that I'm not naive enough to rely on it actually happening.

And actually, I agree that 'quick fixes' are crap, it's the neuroticism about ridding yourself of attachment, etc. that I was slating. So you've got an ambition. Oh my god, shock horror. Better go suck all the vitality out of yourself.

What's the OU course all about?


Maths.

[Strafio]

Hmmm...

I think the interpretation is that the more you hold to your ambitions, the more rigidly you stick to what you "think will be" and the less you're where you're really at.
Like you said, ambition is natural (I'm going to be a "rock"star too! :)) but it would be better not to pre-meditate the future, and live for the moment and let it lead you where it leads you to, rather than depend on something happening...

Like I said, it's not about cutting yourself off from your feelings and ambitions and the like - these "crutches" if you will, it's more about finding the state of mind where you don't need ambition and possession, that you just don't find yourself angry and you just feel happy naturally.

I think. :)

[Blooming Lotus]

Being raised as a buddhist..i don't see how you can call it "attachments" the point of goin on the path of righteousness is not to let go of all things...and to become none or self-less.. it is mostly like someone said earlier..it is to let go of all material things..and surround urself with nature..

Being without guidence or support is not what finding enlightment is, juss like buddha did at first...he starved himself on the search for nirvana..., but he came to realize that the right path is in the middle..to not starve your body but not not depend on it either.

So when you speak of attachment you realize and letting it go or using it as a 'crutch'. There are many things that you might think you 'need' but really it is something you want..not need.

-dj hunny

Attatchment to materialism is just a superficial layer of an attatchment something else. Tell me little boys and girls aren't attatched to their mommys for instance??? But working out the real attatchment ( and being good with potential life without it ever beginning when you "need" it most, potentially insighting the greatest perceived hardship and inconvenience it's lack of presence would cause , despite whether it's really going to disappear or not and not neccessarliy seeking to actively rid yourself of it) is what we seek to do in Zen. Sometimes you're good with it when it hits and sometimes you find it as you go. And that folks is how constitution is born. ;) :cool:

cheers

Blooming Lotus

[Jason Tao]

And that folks is how constitution is born. ;) :cool:

cheers

Blooming Lotus

which constitution? US Constitution when they got rid of the British?