Kumdo

[Korpy]

What does everyone think of Kumdo?

It's the Korean art of swordplay. They wear protective gear and fight with wooden swords.

Does anyone know the history, and techniques and whatnot about Kumdo?

[Sgt_Major]

Do they ALWAYS fight with wooden swords? or just spar with them?

[Korpy]

Sorry, I worded it wrong. You know what I mean.

Also I know the Japanese term for Master is Sensai, but what is the Korean term for it?

[Capt Ann]

The word "Kumdo" is the Korean pronunciation of the Chinese characters that mean "sword art". In Korean, 'kumdo' refers to any martial art using any type of sword, so it is very broad word (kind of like asking, "What is a 'martial art'? ".)

In Japanese, 'kendo' and 'kenjitsu' are alternate pronunciations of the same Chinese characters. Nowadays, 'Kendo' has come to mean the sport fencing art that uses a bamboo stick (shinai in Japanese, or chukdo in Korean), while 'kenjutsu' has come to include all other sword arts.

In Korea, there is an art called "Daehan Kumdo". This art is identical to Japanese kendo. It is a sport fencing art that uses a bamboo sword. It has traditional elements (the 'do' part of the art), but it is mainly focussed on one-on-one sport sparring. 'Daehan Kumdo' literally means 'Korean Kendo'. The Korean Kumdo Association is a member in good standing of the International Kendo Federation. Korean practitioners of Daehan Kumdo know that they are practicing a Japanese art, and no one seems to have a problem with this.

There is another art called 'Haedong Kumdo'. This art uses a live blade for actual cutting, practices very intricate forms with real swords or metal or wooden practice swords, and contains many more formal, traditional elements. Some Haedong Kumdo schools have added sparring (with multi-layer weapons to approximate the shape and weight of a sword without the lethal effects, head gear and hand/arm pads) to their curriculum. The art emphasizes battlefield techniques against multiple opponents, as oppsed to one-on-one sparring. Haedong Kumdo, as an organized martial art, is fairly young (the two main federations both organized in the 70's), but the art shows obvious influences from Chinese swordwork and native Korean forms, and some of the stances can be seen in the Muye Dobo Tongji, a Chinese manual for Korean military practices, written in the 1700's. The art uses a traditional Korean sword (curved, single-edged blade, with not quite as much curvature as your typical katana), or a standard Japanese katana, just because the latter is so readily available at reasonable cost and quality. While some Japanese influences have occurred, the art is a native Korean art, not at all like kendo.

Which kumdo are you asking about?

[Capt Ann]

Also I know the Japanese term for Master is Sensai, but what is the Korean term for it?
An Instructor in Korean is called a 'sa bum nim'. There may be many sabumnim in any school.

The Headmaster of the School is called a 'kwanjangnim'. There is only one of these in any school.

[Korpy]

Thank you.

[BSR]

An Instructor in Korean is called a 'sa bum nim'. There may be many sabumnim in any school.

The Headmaster of the School is called a 'kwanjangnim'. There is only one of these in any school.

Actually, I believe the way you address an instructor depends on rank. In our school the assistant instructors are called 'sa buh nim' and the head instructor is called 'kyo sa nim.'

[Hapkidoin P]

I'm going to have to disagree with some previous info...sorry.

Kumdo = Sword Way...emphasis on "Way"

Kum Sul = Sword Technique

Kum Bup = Sword method

Kenjutsu is to Kendo as Jujutsu is to Judo. For brevity's sake. They share some techniques,but the intent is different.No..the kanji/hanga used are definitely not the same.

The sword mentioned by using the word "Kum"...may pertain to any type of Korean sword or blade,from a Ye do to a Ssang Soo Do and even some sizes inbetween. The Korean Ye do is somewhat longer,wider,and weighs more than a Japanese Katana.That "type" of sword is what 90% of us KSAers practice with on a regular basis.

There are a couple of Korean Sword Arts,and even some Korean empty handed arts which include the sword as just a part of the entire curriculum without heavy emphasis.Here are a couple of the main stream sword arts I know about.

Haidong Gumdo
Hwarang Gumdo
Koryu Gumdo (sketchy roots,or so I've heard)
Kuhapdo (Korean version of Iaido) roots in MJER

And isn't the "nim" an honorific? :D

[Alexander]

Kumdo, as capt. Ann says is always (in my mind anyway) a sport, identical to Kendo. The techniques here are not battlefield techniques as they are designed for speed in point scoring, not cutting - in fact a lot (NOT ALL) of Kendo/Kumdo people would probably not be incapable of cutting if you placed a live blade in their hands and gave them a target as the technique is wrong.

[Capt Ann]

I'm going to have to disagree with some previous info...sorry.No problem, Bro!! That's what makes it a discussion board.

Kumdo = Sword Way...emphasis on "Way"

Kum Sul = Sword Technique

Kum Bup = Sword method'Bup' always emphasizes method, 'sul' technique, but 'do' may be used for a variety of reasons/intents. My understanding of the word is that it is the one you would use if you wanted to emphasize 'way', but it has a much wider variety of uses and meanings than just that one.

Kenjutsu is to Kendo as Jujutsu is to Judo. For brevity's sake. They share some techniques,but the intent is different.No..the kanji/hanga used are definitely not the same.There was a martial arts historian (sorry, but I forget the reference, and I really should go back and find it, because this issue comes up a lot). A while ago, he popularized the notion that the Japanese arts labeled 'do' emphasize the 'way', while the arts labeled 'jutsu' more emphaisized techniques. His interpretation spread far and wide, and now is seen as gospel in many MA circles. Unfortunately, as far as I have been able to research, it just ain't so. Originally, 'do' and 'jutsu' in Japanese martial arts were used interchangeably. Originally in Japan, the terms 'kendo' and 'kenjutsu' were used interchangeably. Today, kendo refers strictly to a martial sport fencing art using bamboo shinai and very formal, rigid scoring rules. 'Kenjutsu' covers the whole gamit of battojutsu, iaido, and assorted sword ryuha.

As far as the kanji, it is the Chinese character that was used as the root, not the Japanese. The same Chinese character was alternately pronounced either way in Japanese, and as 'kumdo' in Korean. I am always amused by the debates online between the Korean and Japanese sword enthusiasts, over who stole what from whom, especially when neither wants to admit how much of both arts (from sword design to basic metalwork to techniques) were borrowed/adapted from the Chinese.

The sword mentioned by using the word "Kum"...may pertain to any type of Korean sword or blade,from a Ye do to a Ssang Soo Do and even some sizes inbetween. The Korean Ye do is somewhat longer,wider,and weighs more than a Japanese Katana. That "type" of sword is what 90% of us KSAers practice with on a regular basis.You are absolutely correct on the word 'kum'. 'Kum' simply means 'blade' in Korean. There are some nuances of meaning that separate it from the word 'do', which also means sword/blade in Korean. Re: "Ye do"; if I'm not mistaken, the word itself means 'short sword'. While 'short' is relative, I think it is fairly similar in length to the katana. Perhaps this is a difference in terminology between how KSA'ers use the term and HDGD'ers use the term? For reference sake, you might want to check out the Muye Dobo Tongji. A translation into English is available from Turtle Press (www.turtlepress.com), although pictures from it are posted throughout the web on different Korean sword art sites. It has some excellent sketches showing the differences between the Japanese, Chinese, and Korean sword types used at the beginning of the 18th century. The main differences are in curvature and sword tip design.

There are a couple of Korean Sword Arts,and even some Korean empty handed arts which include the sword as just a part of the entire curriculum without heavy emphasis.Here are a couple of the main stream sword arts I know about.

Haidong Gumdo
Hwarang Gumdo
Koryu Gumdo (sketchy roots,or so I've heard)
Kuhapdo (Korean version of Iaido) roots in MJERAnd a half dozen more. FYI, the HDGD folks have been in a legal battle over naming rights, after a split in the main organization. They both tried unsuccessfully in Korea to trademark the name of the art. One group was successful in trademarking the name in the US, so the name 'Haidong Gumdo' is officially registered, and refers to one specific school and association. The other group, that split from the main body, spells the art 'haedong kumdo' in English, although they are spelled identically in Korean.

'Koryu Gumdo' is a break-off group that uses the same first 12 basic forms as the HDGD groups. From what I understand, that was all the founders had access to, as far as the HDGD curriculum. For those who have been following some other threads on this forum (teaching materials for sword arts), this type of thing is exactly why most ryuha and other schools are hesitant to produce any training videos, manuals, etc.

'Shim Gumdo' is a very recent innovation, emphasizing meditation and 'way' more than technique. The founder supposedly received the techniques and forms while meditating in the mountains at a monastery.

And isn't the "nim" an honorific? :DYes. If you were an instructor in Korea, you would introduce yourself as a 'sabum'; however, when elsewhere, working with children, it is good to introduce yourself as a 'sabumnim', because the children will repeat what they hear (even though giving yourself an honorific isn't exactly 'kosher' Korean ;) ). When speaking to or about an instructor, you would always use the 'nim' ending.


So, I'm curious. I assume that your background is in KSW. I have never gotten to meet a KSW pratitioner, or visit any KSW class. Could you please tell me something about what your sword curriculum includes? What is a typical sword class like? Do you do live cutting? Sparring? Forms? What do you use for a training weapon?

Thanks in advance, and thanks for the good discussion on all the above.

[Hapkidoin P]

Originally, 'do' and 'jutsu' in Japanese martial arts were used interchangeably.


Fair enough....let's try to stick to 1882 and on then... ;)

I am always amused by the debates online between the Korean and Japanese sword enthusiasts

Right with you on that one! :D

BTW..if you can think of that historian...please let me know. It was my understanding that the characters for Do,Michi...indicated a path or way. I have also bumped up against the phrase Ken no Michi,which would be about the same.FWIW.

Perhaps this is a difference in terminology between how KSA'ers use the term and HDGD'ers use the term?


KSA= Korean Sword Art(s) I include all of us in that one. :)

'Shim Gumdo' is a very recent innovation, emphasizing meditation and 'way' more than technique. The founder supposedly received the techniques and forms while meditating in the mountains at a monastery.

That's one I hadn't heard before... :rolleyes: :D


So, I'm curious.

:D ...I practice Hapkido,but I have spent some time around Kuk Sool. I know just enough about their sword to get myself in trouble.

The KSA I study is Hwa Rang Kumdo. I'll try to answer generally.

Typical sword class....
Warm up with Jukto
Samdonjak
Yidongjak
Ildongjak
Paruenmori
Target Chiki

From there it usually progresses to Kum Bup material with Mokuto,and if we're lucky some sparring.

[Korpy]

Kumdo is cool.

[Capt Ann]

KSA= Korean Sword Art(s) I include all of us in that one. :) oops! I thought you were referring to some Kuk Sool Association :o

The KSA I study is Hwa Rang Kumdo. I'll try to answer generally.

Typical sword class....
Warm up with Jukto
Samdonjak
Yidongjak
Ildongjak
Paruenmori
Target Chiki

From there it usually progresses to Kum Bup material with Mokuto,and if we're lucky some sparring.
Our class starts pretty much the same way: warm-ups, stretching first, then chukdo warmups. From there we switch to mok gum and go through 16 basic stances and cuts, then either more mokgum work (forms, step cutting, cutting forms) or chukdo work (one and two-handed sword sparring drills, occasional sparring). We close out with the 'fun' stuff: candle snuffing, paper cutting, extra sparring work.

Question: Is 'mokuto' the same as what I'm calling mok gum (wooden sword, similar to Japanese bokken)?

Also, is there a website with video clips or some VHS or DVD resource that you could recommend so I could get a closer look at your art?

One more quick Question: One of my classmates is moving to Hawaii in a month, and I have not been able to find any HDGD schools near where he will be. Sounds like Hwarang Do Kumdo might be a good alternative for him, if a school is available. Do you know of anyhting near Honolulu? (I'll probably post a Q on this one in the 'Weapons' forum, and try to catch all the sword art practitioners)

Thanks for all the info and your responses.

- Ann

[Hapkidoin P]

I'd just like to say...Thanks a lot!...your interpretation of "Do" and "Jutsu" has created a frenzy of research for me. :)

All that aside,Mokgum and Mokuto are interchangeable as "to" and "kum" are again,just words meaning blade. Yes,we do spend a bulk of our time practicing with Mokuto for starters,then the "fun" stuff with Shimgum. :cool:
No candle snuffing though...How irritating to do is that?

As for resources and DVD's for Hwa Rang Kumdo.... I really don't know of any offhand. I'll ask around and see what I can dig up for you. You could try doing a search for Hwarang Kumdo Association USA. It's been good talking with you. :)

[Capt Ann]

No candle snuffing though...How irritating to do is that?It's a straight-out blast the first time you are successful. It is irritating when you are trying too hard and just can't get it. Just start with one candle--tea lights work great because they come with their own 'stand'. Take a straight downward cut and try to stop abruptly as close to the wick as you can, without touching it.




It's been good talking with you. :)It's been my pleasure!

[Hapkidoin P]

Thanks for the tips! I am thoroughly frustrated with what I am practicing at the moment,so I will leave any attempts at greater frustration alone for a while.

On the subject of Hanja/Hanzi/Kanji check this out:

http://www.msu.edu/~taekwon/Chinese.pdf

Pretty interesting stuff,I thought.

[nj_howard]

On the subject of Hanja/Hanzi/Kanji check this out:

http://www.msu.edu/~taekwon/Chinese.pdf

Pretty interesting stuff,I thought.
Paul, thanks for this... that article is excellent. Very informative.

I'm fortunate enough to have a coworker who grew up in China and can read Chinese... she has translated lots of stuff for me off our kwan's website and from other sources.

[Hapkidoin P]

No problem,Howard.

I find it absolutely fascinating to study Hanja and the many layers of meaning contained in just one character.

I found the meaning for "Mu/Bu" to be deep. I've heard it being translated that way,particularly in Aikido. The concept of "peace through inner strength" has immense appeal to me.

"Mu Sa" is another one I particularly like. "Ability to stop the spear by knowing one from ten." We've got some work to do,eh?

[powerof0ne]

Kumdo, as capt. Ann says is always (in my mind anyway) a sport, identical to Kendo. The techniques here are not battlefield techniques as they are designed for speed in point scoring, not cutting - in fact a lot (NOT ALL) of Kendo/Kumdo people would probably not be incapable of cutting if you placed a live blade in their hands and gave them a target as the technique is wrong.

Most kendoka that I personally know also train in Iaido, so I'd have to disagree with you on this.

[Capt Ann]

Haedong Kumdo is specifically designed to teach battlefield techniques (even in sparring), and includes cutting. Daehan Kumdo is a sport that is almost identical to kendo, but in most schools also includes some live cutting.

[Alexander]

Most kendoka that I personally know also train in Iaido, so I'd have to disagree with you on this.
Interestingly a lot of Iaido schools also have changed their technique to look better for competition. The guy who teaches me Japanese swordsmanship is studied his art in Japan. He told me stories of how some Iaido masters tried to cut throught straw targets and failed. Their reaction was to chuck out the practise of cutting targets, banning it from their Dojo, rather than making it work. The sword arts that practise cutting generally end in 'jutsu' rather than 'do' - Kenjutsu or Iai-jutsu. But, as I said, NOT ALL Kendo and Iaido schools are incapable of cutting - many are, its just in general these two styles have been adapted for other purposes.