Aikido in a "Real Fight"

[xplasma]

Hi everyone,


I would like everyone opinion this. I started Aikido 1 month ago. I currently train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Bujinkan Ninpo, and Krav Maga. I am finding aikido to be very ineffective in reality fighting or even standard street fights. I have left my Tae Kwon Do training at Yellow Belt for the same reason. Can anyone give me input on this?


-plasm,a

[pgm316]

I read how styles ending in do are more martial way than martial art. It said how they had a way of doing things, which was effective and a good training tool, but the style wasn't a fighting art such as the ones ending in su ie Jujitsu. Seems to be some truth in it.....

[YODA]

Can anyone give me input on this?

Sure - you're passing judgement on the effectiveness of an art after training it for a MONTH?

Bwaaaaaaahaaaaaahaaaahaahahaaaaa...

How many "Standard street fights" have you tried out your Aikido in during the last month?

[xplasma]

I do alot of NHB fighting with my friends. That Where I tried it out.

I plan to keep with Aikido for at least for the rest of summer.

I just want opinion of people who *has* trained in Aikido longer.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by xplasma
I would like everyone opinion this. I started Aikido 1 month ago. I currently train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Bujinkan Ninpo, and Krav Maga. I am finding aikido to be very ineffective in reality fighting or even standard street fights. I have left my Tae Kwon Do training at Yellow Belt for the same reason. Can anyone give me input on this?[/B]

Ever hear of Shaolin kung fu? Would you like to fight an adult Shaolin monk? Do you think he learned how to fight in one month?

I don't know what ninpo is, but I know what krav maga and BJJ are. Maybe you shouldn't be taking aikido. Mixing aikido with BJJ and krav maga is like drinking beer while eating chocolate candy and then complaining that your candy doesn't taste good. They don't belong together.

KM and BJJ are about fighting. Aikido is about not fighting. KM and BJJ teach you how to fight. Aikido teaches you how to not fight. In KM and BJJ you charge your opponent. In aikido you wait for the attack to come to you. In KM and BJJ you use your muscles against your opponent's muscles. In aikido you don't even have an opponent because you're not fighting, but semantics aside, in aikido you don't use your muscles. You use the other guy's muscles. In KM and BJJ you get in the other person's face so that you can hit, choke, whatever. In aikido you get out of his face, and get out of his way altogether.

You get the picture? They're opposites.

Krav maga was designed for war, literally. Aikido was designed with the hope of stopping war. BJJ was designed for street fights, literally. Aikido was designed to stop street fights. They're opposites.

That said, aikido can work just as well as KM or BJJ in a street fight, but it's going to take a lot more time to develop fighting skill from aikido than from either KM or BJJ. Have you considered that aikido was designed to deal with multiple attackers, but KM and BJJ were not? That should mean something to you.

The Shaolin monks didn't learn their kung fu in a month, but crimey! I sure don't want to fight them. In six months of KM you can go from nothing to pretty good. Street-fighting self-defense skill will be there. BJJ might require two years before viable self-defense skills appear because it's a more complicated art. Aikido is exponentially more complicated than BJJ. You'll probably have to stay with aikido six years before the street-fighting skills begin to surface. It's a much more complicated martial art, but when you learn it, yikes, the stuff does work.

[xplasma]

Ninpo or Ninjutsu is the art Aikido is mostly dervived from. Even though Ninpo still includes strikes. We include many of the void (lack of effort and muscles) techniques that aikido does. I figured Aikido would help me devolped those techniques.

[xplasma]

"Would you like to fight an adult Shaolin monk? "

Yes knife-fighter I would.

[xplasma]

Again Knife Fighter,

Ninpo is a very effective art for multiple attackers. But you are right is saying KM and especially BJJ is Dueling (one on one) arts.

sorry for saying this in three posts, I sorta of simmed your post before replying, and every time I reread it I want to posts something else.

[aikiMac]

"Ninpo or Ninjutsu is the art Aikido is mostly dervived from."

Oh. Hmm. Ninjutsu. I've read books and books and more books about aikido, but I never read that aikido derived from ninjutsu. Hmm. Everyone who writes aikido books says that aikido came primarily from aiki-jujitsu and Japanese fencing. Whatever. Doesn't matter.

I'd like to watch that fight with the Shaolin monk. That'd be pretty cool.

[xplasma]

The association is not direct. Ninpo was one of orginial arts in what is the martial arts family Aikido belongs to.

[NotAMonte86]

Originally posted by xplasma
I am finding aikido to be very ineffective in reality fighting or even standard street fights. I have left my Tae Kwon Do training at Yellow Belt for the same reason.
Well that doesn't sound too good, cause I just started training in both aikido and TKD!
I have become very interested in aikido, and I feel that aikido is effective for real life situations, at least from what I'm being taught. We are currently learning how to escape arm grabs, bear hugs, headlocks, etc. From there you can run, or get in a hit or two to slow the attacker down, then run. It's better than taking chances (especially for us beginners!).
BJJ seems like a tough MA, I know that I would be intimidated taking on someone holding a high rank in that type of fighting. Once you are tackled by a grappler, you are in a bad position. But that pertains to one-on-one fights, which in real life, won't be too common. Most of the time an aggresive person out in public will have back-up, and when that guy grabs you, his friends are right behind YOU. In class we were told about a black belt in judo who got into an altercation with three guys... he took one down, but the other two beat him and he ended up in the hospital in very bad shape.
Anyway, I hope aikido and TKD help my ability to defend myself in situations. The two go together... first you flow, then you strike. Good luck finding what you like.

[Spike]

Okay let`s throw in another opinion on Aiki`s origins

as far as I`m aware aikido came from Aiki Jitsu.
Aiki Jitsu was created by Morehei Oueshiba (O`sensei)
Before he created his own Art O`sensei practiced Kenjitsu and Ju jitsu. Most of the movements in Aikido are actually sword cuts, which is where the ken jitsu comes in.

Ninpo or Ninjutsu is the art Aikido is mostly dervived from

and then you say

The association is not direct. Ninpo was one of orginial arts in what is the martial arts family Aikido belongs to.

which is it?

I do alot of NHB fighting with my friends. That Where I tried it out.

First of all, how close NHB sparring is to a fight is a much debated topic which you can find on the General Topics section of MAP
Second, Aikido, as with most "TMA" (IMHO) is a slow art to learn it takes a long time to develop the skill to use it in a street situation IMHO
so if you have little patience or just want results as quick as possible, it`s not for you. If you`re prepared to wait for (Again IMO) a higher level of skill and control stick with it

I don't know what ninpo is, but I know what krav maga and BJJ are. Maybe you shouldn't be taking aikido. Mixing aikido with BJJ and krav maga is like drinking beer while eating chocolate candy and then complaining that your candy doesn't taste good. They don't belong together.

I disagree I think they compliment each other and cover holes the other may have

It's a much more complicated martial art, but when you learn it, yikes, the stuff does work.

oh Hell Yeah!

I'd like to watch that fight with the Shaolin monk. That'd be pretty cool.

As would I, friend. As would I.

Oh and one last thing

I started Aikido 1 month ago.

You have much to learn young Grashopper, I agree with YODA.
Because he`ll hurt me if I don`t :)

. I am finding aikido to be very ineffective in reality fighting or even standard street fights. I have left my Tae Kwon Do training at Yellow Belt for the same reason. Can anyone give me input on this?

Well, My Kung fu instructor is a doorman, and if he`s restraining people or stopping them causing trouble or just defneding himself, 90% of what he does is Aikido.

[jejanim]

k...no..u dont wanna fight a shoalin monk...no one does, it will hurt lots. secondly, it takes at least 2 or 3 years before anyone feels comfortable using Aikido in a fight. BUT, when u do get comfy with it, you WILL be a dangerous person. in effect, you are one with your attacker and use the force of the universe(since you learn to be at one with the universe in Aikido) to put him down or break something. stick with it dude, it'll be worth it in a few years.

jeja

[Freeform]

Aiki Jitsu was created by Morehei Oueshiba (O`sensei)


No it wasn't, go back to yer books Spike! ;)

Ueshiba studied Ken Jutsu at the Tenshin Katori Ryu and was granted the right to teach Aiki Ju Jitsu, he never created it.

Col

[Sonshu]

Feeling Aikido did not blend well with my previous training experience as I felt most of the people I trained with were over compliant and I guess they felt I was a little to strong for some techniques.

Also there was a fairly naff attitude in the club and a very unfriendly atmosphere. All that aside I took some valuable footwork lessons away from it. To me the missing out of solid striking and kicks often left me feeling as though I never really had hold/control of the person I was with.

Still this is what I have found. It is a great complimenting style to many others and the footwork was excellent and I feel it is the best style for this as the majority of there defence really does come from the excellent footwork.

SONSHU

[KickChick]

I'm assuming a this "real fight" is a "streetfight" attack where there may be a surge of fear induced adrenaline.
Now the effects of this is the loss of fine motor coordination and a limited access to cognitive thinking. Both of these factors weigh heavily against the aikido practitioner.

So my question is .... isn't there a certain amount of manual dexterity required for most of the wrist manipulations and would Aikido be effective because of the loss of fine motor coordination during this adrenaline stress of a "real attack".

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Sonshu
... and the footwork was excellent and I feel it is the best style for this as the majority of there defence really does come from the excellent footwork.
SONSHU

I second that. I've tried a dozen martial arts in various amounts, and I read and talked about many more. I don't know of any martial art with footwork more evasive than aikido's footwork. Trying to hit an aikidoka is like trying to punch the wind because we're never there. I love it!

One time I sparred with a TKD 2nd dan. I was a nothing, not even a 1st dan in anything at the time, but I was crazy about aikido, and I wanted to try out my new aikido footwork against someone with skill. It worked. Oh he would have broke my ribs several times over if it had been a real fight, but that was after I evaded numerous attacks, and after I grabbed him in a choke hold. So who won? We don't care. I think we sparred for 40 minutes total. He landed a lot of strikes, I landed a few strikes, and I got a lot of chokeholds and takedowns. My point is that aikido's footwork is awesome. It works. If a goofy know-nothing beginner can evade a seasoned 2nd dan and grab his neck, then golly, just think of the possibilities for a seasoned black belt in aikido! Sure, the aikido person might take a few hits, but I think anyone else would too.

[Spike]

isn't there a certain amount of manual dexterity required for most of the wrist manipulations and would Aikido be effective because of the loss of fine motor coordination during this adrenaline stress of a "real attack".

there`s manual dexterity involved in every Martial Art. My earlier point was that Aikido takes years to be formidable in a "street fight" this is because it takes years for it to become a reaction, which your muscles are used to moving in the correct manner they will. you will lose some precision in the adrenaline dump. that could just mean you don`t have the control to avoid breaking someone`s wrist. It doesn`t instantly follow on that because you`re a little less calm that Aikido is not effective.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by KickChick
So my question is .... isn't there a certain amount of manual dexterity required for most of the wrist manipulations and would Aikido be effective because of the loss of fine motor coordination during this adrenaline stress of a "real attack".
The uke is always right.

Yes, manual dexterity is required for the wrist manipulations. You make a fair comment. That is something to keep in mind. But, there are a great many things that you can do without grabbing the wrist. You don't need his wrist, but if you do try a wrist twist of some sort, a failed attempt for one technique very often leaves the opponent wide open for another technique. It might leave you wide open too, but now we're back to footwork and the core of aikido: blend with his energy. The uke is always right, so don't argue with him.

[xplasma]

THANKS GUYS!

I am usually very weary about posting on forums, because they normally start flames wars with people who know nothing. This is very different.

I believe I have the answer I am looking for from your responses, you all seem very knowledgable.

I will continue aikido for the time being.

Thanks again.

[YODA]

Originally posted by xplasma
THANKS GUYS!

I am usually very weary about posting on forums, because they normally start flames wars with people who know nothing. This is very different.




Yeah - here we flame each other anyway, in spite of knowing what we're talking about :D

*Cue Kenny Everett Voice

"It's all done in the best Paaaasible taste"

[Freeform]

Now theres a mental image I didn't need!!! ;)

[Spike]

ROFL!

Ew, that`s not nice

[Sonshu]

on this forum gets too upset from what is said so POST AWAY guys!

I never get bothered!

SONSHU

[med]

your mum

[med]

you guys have said pretty much everything i think.. the decision is ultimately up to you dude. i do think you should check out the origins a bit more cos im fairly sure that ninjutsu, although it has similar locks and stuff, is from an entirely different social background. im reasonably sure there were samurai' and there were ninja'. im equally certain you couldnt be both. aikido is derived from samurai arts. which is why we use the katana and not the gatana. (or ninja to)
also i believe some ninjutsu involves team techniques. aikido is designed so that one man can take on many.

[Sonshu]

For the mum gag you are spot on!!!

As for the Ninjitsu one - they were more on the line of single person as you would rarely rely on others as most of the time you are on your tod.

Also the Taijitsu stuff came from the Samurai as well - most of it crosses over and is the same. One of the reasons for this is the Aikido style would not work too well if laid up with bulky Samurai type armor.

They all came from the same roots and developed over time.

SONSHU

[med]

groovy.. thanks. i only heard of a couple of clubs and rare occasions that the multiple tori situation happened.. just thought it was worth mentionin.
i think some of the locks are actually based on armour however.. like ikkajo nikkajo sankajo, maybe not yonkajo but i dont know. and possibly gokkajo, although many schools dont practice that any more. developed around the way the wrist joints of armour fold and lock. but this could all be crap. i heard it somewhere.. i think there is some truth in it though cos i remember one guy who mentioned it in passing was a 9th dan and knew his history. i however haven't researched that much. only about two centuries worth.

with regards to 'your mum'. i think we are all on the same wavelength. 'arguing on the internet is a bit like running the special olympics.... even if you win you're still a retard'..

[Sonshu]

I dont really argue - just some get heated - from my point of view there are some lovely points in Aikido and I really did enjoy many parts of it - just never really felt to me that I had control over anyone.

Armor training is best from my experience in Taijitsu as there is a school of training dedicated to it. It has some useful modern points to it as well for the military as if you have an injured comrad and need to fight or move still whilst carrying him.

Also in general with any heavy load. Still its uses are very specific and there is IMO not a massive amout of time needed to be spent on it - still you never need a technique until you need it - of course by the time you wish you had learnt that one its too late!

Sods lore


SONSHU
:Alien:

[Sambo Master]

i would never try this art in the steets to me it is sof and only for the dojo!

[slart]

I have trained in aikido for 4 years in addition to a few other arts, such as wing chun, judo and tae kwon do.

Recently I started training with some guys who don't mind what style you know, just as long as it works. Every now and then I throw an aikido technique in to see if it will work. At first it didnt work well at all. What I have found is that the aikido I was taught in class is too structured to pull off. I had to learn to go with the flow and look for opportunities to apply what I know. Often this means hitting them first before doing the aikido technique and if they wrestle with you need to switch to something else or just smack them again ...

I am slowly starting to get better at it and now it is starting to get to the stage that some of the guys are saying "why is that everytime I train with you I end up on the ground and I have no idea how I got there" ... :-)

Now I just need to learn to do it without hitting them. But I think that is going to taker much much longer

[Sambo Master]

That is right sometimes the classed teach structured moves which just dont work

[Aikiman]

Yuo gonna train the whole summer to learn aikido WAOW i have trained since -95 and i'll start to get a hang of it now...............

It takes atleast three years to just learn to sit down on a stone...........................



Sorry for my english, i'm from Sweden.:D

[Jazman]

"i would never try this art in the steets to me it is sof and only for the dojo!"

I have never performed any Aikido although I greatly admire it(I'm hoping to begin at a school soon), not only as an effective form of "fighting" but as an art. I wonder if Sambo Masters thoughts as qouted above were spoken a tad presumptuously as his words also implied he had not ever tried it. I believe any martial art performed well and with discipline and patience will perform well in most situations(of course none will be completely effective if the opponent has a gun.) Yes, even "sport" martial arts. Will not a well a well placed side kick down nearly all opponents? or perhaps a spinning crescent kick to the head? performed with the utmost grace and skill of course. Will not fluid movements meant to topple an opponent simply by changing of their center of gravity or by joint manipulation work just as well? Of course a knowledge of adrenaline and other factors in streetfights also come into play. This is where patience and taking the time to learn the art form become neccessary. So that when comes the time to defend yourself every reflex will be automatic and performed without flaw. If anything can be learned effectively within 1 summer or even one year of life then perhaps it is to easy or perhaps you are not realizing subtle complexities? As a great man once said...
"everything should be as simple as possible, but not more so." -- Albert Einstein

[Sonshu]

Why not use a chair?

[Sonshu]

Good post as I had exactly the same problems when I came to use it - adapting it to a more realistic method but putting the strikes in it almost goes back to its Jujitsu/Judo (with strikes) roots.

Hence I found everything easier to use.

[AikiSamurai]

I have only had to use Aikido once in the street, and I was the one who walked away unharmed. It becomes kinda instinctive when someone attacks you so quick. But I use a lot of Aikido movments when I start doing Judo, it's quite surprising for the uke.

[JiGGa]

A good friend of mine is black belt aikido.
I fought him a couple of times this week and he could barly beat me I even let him kiss the dust a few times.
Damn, i'm only yellow belt jiu-jitsu.
Any black belt jiu-jitsu beats me like i'm some 2 year old kid.
This is just my experience guys but if you get a black belt arent you surposed to be actualy good?
Witch I do like about aikido is that you get trained mentaly my friend is mentaly very strong witch i'm not :(

[Sc0tsg1t]

How do you spar with your black belt aikido friend?

Do you spar in a kick-boxing manner followed by throws? If so, are you commiting to your attacks or being defensive and letting him attack you? The latter method would of course go against the grain of the counter-attacking aikidoka.

I can't answer ability-wise for your friend but the black belt aikido that I know are very accomplished in what they do and if your sole training history is as a yellow belt level in jujitsu then they would have you for breakfast. No offence intended.

[xplasma]

When I came to a conclusion about this

Aikido is a good art, if you attacker has no fighting expirence. On Wednesday, the 3rd Dan I train under was showing us "Street Aikido." My initial reaction was "GREAT!" However, it was again crap. He was "showing" how to do aikido techniques off a jab. Afterwords, I was working with my parnter and I was like "jabs are too fast, you can't do technique off it." He response what "jab at me" and watch. So I did, and no surpise he couldn't do a move becuase jabs are too fast. He response was "you don't punch like your suppose too" and then took a brown belt and he threw the most wussy wanna be punch I ever seen. He goes "jab like that." My response "thats not a jab, thats a slap or your want to degrade a slap to that." His response "I don't care what you learn in your hard style, punch like that"

My response
I was doing 2 Aikido 2 BJJ a week at the same place. I switch to 1 AIkido 3 BJJ a week. And I plan to lose Aikido after August.

[Sc0tsg1t]

I can verify you there. Some aikido instructors seem to believe that their techniques can work against all attacks. This use of the 'correct punch' or more correctly cr4p jab is a major failing and seems to produce rather less than effective ability. It also puts off people like yourself.

When will a jab be used in the street? Virtually never.
A big old cross or hook is going to be far more common. Jabs are damn near impossible to catch by their very nature. Parrying or slipping is the correct approach followed by a technique which takes advantage of your opponent firing their big gun i much better.

From a historical viewpoint any technique that 'catches' a jab will be done when their opponent is tired and not fresh.

Please don't judge the style by your unfortunate experience. Aikido is very effective when conveyed properly.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by JiGGa
A good friend of mine is black belt aikido.
I fought him a couple of times this week and he could barly beat me I even let him kiss the dust a few times.
Damn, i'm only yellow belt jiu-jitsu.
Any black belt jiu-jitsu beats me like i'm some 2 year old kid.
This is just my experience guys but if you get a black belt arent you surposed to be actualy good?
Witch I do like about aikido is that you get trained mentaly my friend is mentaly very strong witch i'm not :(


Are we supposed to be "good" at what? What is good? Aikido is entirely a defensive martial art. There are no attacks in aikido. There are only evasions and counter-attacks. I wonder then, how were you and your aikido friend sparring? If he was attacking you with punches and kicks (which I note are part of a traditional jiu-jitsu curriculum) then he wasn't doing aikido. He was trying to do your JJ, or something else.

[AikiSamurai]

I think people put down Aikido way too much.

[Sonshu]

The biggest flaw with the style is no pressure testing/sparing and no strikes but this was a focus on the style when it was created so I am told and when I was doing it.

Yet no one does it - odd huh? - thats why it gets a blasting

[nicolo]

xplasma:

Aikido has its advantages and disadvantages as do most arts. You can't simply give up on it.

Aikido greatly improves your evasive footwork and teaches you receptiveness and sensitivity. Do you do any sort of dancing? Ballroom dancing? Swing? Ok then you'll realize how effortlessly you can move and flow with your partner. Add a bunch of techniques and more footwork to that and you're halfway there to Aikido.

The reason Aikido is so weird for people is because it reprograms you to fight in a different way. Many many people act the same way when they get threatened- they strike. Thus, striking arts are more readily acceptable because it builds on that reaction. Aikido's style or philosophy of combat is different than what you might find in a hard style, yet it can be easily understood by those of weaker stature like myself.
I've found that aikido works best in static situations like someone grabbing at you and in situations where the other person is lunging at you. It has taught me a thing or two about mass attacks and I've found the footwork in it to be of tremendous help in dealing with multiple attackers.

The movements of Aikido are drawn from movements with sword and staff. You say well who the hell carries a sword and staff on the street? Well no one really but you'll always get opponents who lunge at you with or without a weapon or opponents who grab at you, and that's where aikido can be most effective.

Remember, not everyone can sprawl out when a 300+ lb guy charges at them...especially when there's broken glass and dogcrap on the sidewalk...yuck. Aikido relies on physics to negate and blend with the force of an incoming attack, so you'll safely move away and redirect that 300+ lb guy into a garbage can.

[Sonshu]

The Aikido footwork is the pearl of the style but it is not enough - I took what I needed from it and moved on.

The footwork is the emphasis on the style but there is not enough - what happens when you get a jab cross - this is a common punching technique that requires no skill to do at a basic level.

Its left and then hard right. Aikido does not cover defences against this enough but the footwork is important.

[nicolo]

jab-cross....that all depends on how quick, responsive and evasive you are. You can do what most people may do which is lean away or block it...or in the Aikido way, you can slip it to the inside and do an atemi strike to the face, circle away to the outside with a tenkan movement or even slip and catch it and enter into something like a shiho-nage throw. That is IF you're good enough.....but most people say "bah" and deem it impractical saying that aikido takes too long to learn or master. True, but you need to stick around and work at it. That's both the beauty and the fault of it. Many people don't have 20 years to attain a black belt. They want results, get in, learn something easy and effective and then get out. I'm only speaking from a self-defense/fighting perspective which is the point of this thread. If you want personal development and exercise then that's different.

[Sonshu]

Problem is a Jab cross is so fast I dont think many people could move as fast as you describe,

This is why it gets such a hammering as you never really have control from the start in Aikido - yes u can get it but its the start where people from other arts who have seen other stuff feel you are vunrable!

Hope this make sence.

[nicolo]

oh yeah true, like I said, IF you're good enough you should be able to sense and anticipate the correct moment of attack and move away. Otherwise you'll get hit. It would also have to depend on the skillset of the attacker. Some people are easier to slip because they're too slow or throw wide crosses. It would have to depend on the situation.
An Aikidoka can really have more control if strikes were included as well...or atemi as its called. For my personal preference I like to supplement aikido with something like thai boxing. Strike and pummel the opponent so that his defenses are reasonably destroyed. When that happens, he may start making mistakes like reaching or lunging or grabbing at me. Once that opportunity comes, I can switch into a joint lock or a throw and maybe take it from there.
The hard part is to first gain an attachment to the attacker's body or limbs to pull the aiki technique...in other words, your entry has to work. A good boxer will always keep moving, hitting fast and almost never giving up his/her center. It makes it more difficult for the aikidoka since he has to draw the attack from the boxer first in order to off balance him.

[hercules]

Yes, western boxers are probably one of the biggest challenge for people practising Aikido.
Without proper anticipation it is very difficult to apprehend Jab and punch combos.

I believe it is interesting to practise boxing at least to get some punch awareness.
And yes, correct footwork is probably a non negligeable part of the solution to this riddle.

Morihei Ueshiba clearly stated that in order to make Aikido techniques work you had to train for at least 10 year.
I even think he was a bit obtimistic.
My personal opinion is that one`s should not limit himself/herself to one particulary Martial Arts, sometimes practising something different for a while helps you apprehend your daily techniques differently with a new scope.

[slart]

Dealing with a jab/cross combo is actually quite easy. There are three steps:

Step 1: Descalate the fight before it starts.

Step 2: If step 1 fails, then never get close enough to let the bad guy hit you in the first place. If you stand toe to toe with a boxer or street fighter, you are asking for trouble.

Step 3: See step 2 :D

Ok, ok, so I can see you are asking yourself, but what if he gets close enough? You should be of the opinion that it is not an option, because if you think you will get hit and he thinks he will hit you, then odds are you will get hit.

So, lets say, you choose to let him get close enough to try and hit you, then what?

Well, it is time to turn back the clock on aikido and go back to the jiu jutsu and diato ryu roots. There are a number of options available to you:

Hit the bad guys arm as hard as you can when he jabs you. If you have hurt him enough, he is not likely to punch you again. If he is foolish enough to leave his arm out, then it is time to apply kotegaeshi and a pin (or what ever else takes your fancy).

The other thing you can do is "play with him". Tempt him to throw a few punches while you evade and parry and stay just out of his reach. Eventually, he will over commit to a punch and you can use that to throw him.

However, neither of these are my preferred tactic. My personal favourite is, "enter in" and hit him first, before he throws his first punch and then apply a lock or a pin.

You don't have to be merciless about hitting someone, there is no need to stick your finger in his eye socket or elbow him in the throat. A simple kick to the testicles should be enough to give him something to think about before applying a lock.

See, if you know a fight is going to be on and you have no chance of descalating the fight, then it is best if you get in and end it first and end it fast. If you don't, he will and you can guarantee that when he knocks you down, he won't be nice and apply a lock or a pin, he will just put the boot in, repeatedly.

[Sonshu]

Step 3 was what I was looking for and the hitting the jab hand is luck at best - in Taijitsu I trained a lot for this and its still hard as hell to do if the person can jab well and not leave his arm out to be hit and grabbed.

The first strike is the best option but there is still issues to the styles main defence against this sort of thing - also the low leg kick got ya!

:D

[slart]

Now, now ... you didn't mention the low leg kicks as well.

Dealing with Thai Boxers is also really easy, but for them you need to get really mystical.

A real aiki master would use a bar stool as a make shift Jo and hit the thai boxers legs out from under them, and then pin them by sitting on them :)

But I take your point Sonshu, I don't see many suburban dojos teaching hitting first or the way of the mystical bar stool ;)

[Sonshu]

Yet the 2 dojo's I have trained at (only 2 granted) but the people there could not punch or kick for toffee!

I know kicking is not an element of Aikido but doing stuff makes it easier to understand the mechanics and therefor deal with or counter.

[pgm316]

Aikido, from what I can tell is not an all round art and doesn't try to be. It has a definite way of doing things. Its effectiveness must be largely down to the fighter being able to control the fight, ie keep it in Aikido fighting style?

[Vrax]

in the case of the jab cross combination the proper aiki technique is to step off the center line to the outside of the jab hand. that means that if the boxer wishes to connect with his cross he'll need to reach across his own center which sets him up for an easy throw. or you could step to the outside, then forward while parrying and use irimi-nage. this a neck twist throw which is very effective in any arena.

to be honest i'm shocked that any of the aikido practitioners here would suggest stepping inside the center and giving your opponent access to your face. the very first thing i was taught was to step off the center so that the opponent must throw off balance punches in order to reach you, rendering is easy to toss him to the ground.

i learned this on my third day in class. i have training in judo, jkd, wt, jj, kali, silat, savate, boxing and fencing. so, the jabs were not wussy punches. this neck throw is a very effective and simple counter to a jab, it can be easily learned and applied.

i will begin studying aikido once more now that another school has opened in my area. even when compared to the other arts i have studied i find aikido to be effective in reality situations. the important factors here are 1) a good teacher, which is not always the same thing as a skilled practitioner, you need someone with clear communication skills and an ability to TEACH. 2) you must realize that any technique you learn is to be applied based on the principal involved , not isolated to a specific dojo-only situation. practice with both fine tuned and sloppy strikes, learn to defend against them all as attackers can come in many shapes and sizes.

[Sonshu]

Thing is a decent jab is hard to evade with footwork alone as it is so quick. Stepping to the outside is the best option but in practice it is pretty hard to do as the jab then can turn into an elbow swinging back on you.

I know this could turn into a "what if" descussion which I am not a fan of on forums. The trouble I have found with Aikido is that there is a massive influence on the Atemi yet no schools really use what I class as striking (from the ones I have been to).

Also complience is an issue but the footwork is great and this should not be overlooked in any crosstrainers eyes.

The outside is a safer place but if you are a good fighter the inside is only slightly more dangerious but you need to take the initiative.

[natxanadu]

some Aikido schools train very hard, not soft at all

[Sonshu]

or describe a hard Aikido lesson to you. Not to pick fault but to me I found out leaving and feeling like I had not really done much.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Vrax
in the case of the jab cross combination the proper aiki technique is to step off the center line to the outside of the jab hand. that means that if the boxer wishes to connect with his cross he'll need to reach across his own center which sets him up for an easy throw. or you could step to the outside, then forward while parrying and use irimi-nage. this a neck twist throw which is very effective in any arena. ... this neck throw is a very effective and simple counter to a jab, it can be easily learned and applied.

Yes, something like this! I came to aikido after escrima and a JKD concepts sort of MMA background. Escrima's hand parries are easily applied to aikido. I too would do something like this here irimi-nage, and yes, I have tried irimi-nage and similar defenses at speed in a dojo setting and made it work.

If you can punch someone, you can grab someone, necessarily. If he can reach you, then you can reach him, necessarily.

And in aikido seminars I've seen high-ranking old guy's do boxing parries that look for all the world like escrima or kung fu. I've seen old guys do boxing defenses that remind me of silat. Aikido can work if you give it time ... but not everyone wants to give it time. That's fine. That's why we have JKD.

[Sonshu]

Also there are times when grabbing a person is less preferable than punching them.

If you are of smaller frame than a bigger guy he might overpower you.

Aikido is not a clinching art.

[natxanadu]

I went to one Aikido class, it was all too formal for me, but they were training fairly full on, big throws and very heavy on the wrists, they were quite a mean bunch,

Some kid kicked a football onto the matt, so rather than simply closing the door, one very senior student forcibly hurled the ball back at the kids head, these were small children.

Not what you'd expect from the Way of Divine Harmony. I did not go back.

But their techniques looked effective.

[Sonshu]

Still no need to be so ruff on the kids!

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by natxanadu
Some kid kicked a football onto the matt, so rather than simply closing the door, one very senior student forcibly hurled the ball back at the kids head, these were small children.

Not what you'd expect from the Way of Divine Harmony. I did not go back.

I wouldn't send my kid to this school. I don't think I would go there myself even!

by Sonshu
Aikido is not a clinching art.
Absolutely true!

[Vrax]

Sonshu,
i do not advocate merely stepping outside by itself. i suggest stepping outside/forward with a "cutting" parry, leading into the neck takedown.

the jab CANNOT turn into an elbow heading back your way as your arms are already covering that line, still present from the parry.

i'm also not a fan of "what if" type forum discussions, but i have seen and felt this technique (giving and receiving) work too many times to discount its effectiveness.

[Sonshu]

And expect it to be done like this - just merely pointing out that was not explained in the original.

:Angel:

[mig29]

Aikido is the basis of the most techniques in many military self-defense techniques. So I guess it can be quite useful in real fights. I saw some videos of this "Krav Maga" and I doesn´t look so effective. It must be because it lacks tradition...
If you want something straight you should try Muay Thai. :D

[mykel]

Aikido is great knowing it with something else is better

[deCadena]

there are different styles of aikido as well. i think yoshinkan style is noted of their hard style. among other aikido system it has puches as well.

am thinking of getting into aikido. :)

[Sc0tsg1t]

I was the unfortunate recipient of an attempted mugging last night and used my aikijitsu knowledge to judicious effect. I am fine. They are not.

I have a vague recollection of getting hit on the back of the head and after break falling forward to gain some distance from my attacker I turned and utilised irimi-nage on the first (and I can only presume initial) attacker. After feeling something snap I placed him delicately as I could on the ground and using the footwork which has been so praised by Sonshu on these forums I avoided several more attacks before using ikkyo to subdue the second person and use him as a shield between me and the third. Whilst I kicked this person in the leg and head I was informing the third that it would be silly for him to continue his attacks on me (not quite in those words as I think my language was a tad more colourful.)

Much to my relief he and the first person ran off as fast as they could and then I gave my shield a final kick in the shin before i let him go as well.

This is not the way I would have liked to have to prove that Aiki techniques are a potent arsenal in a real fight but sometimes circumstances force you to show your hand. Aiki techniques worked for me and all I have to show for my altercation is a bump on the back of my head. Until a martial art can teach me 'spider-sense' I reckon I'll have to just live with it.

I suppose the next argument will be about aikido against an 'aggressive full-contact knockdown' martial art. All I can say to that is why are they fighting and secondly that if the aikidoka has trained with persons of these skill set (the same as any style versus style) then he will have a greater chance of being successfull.

What a real fight concerning style versus style in a life or death situation ultimately comes down to is who delivers their devastating technique (be it throw, kick, punch, wrench,lock etc) first. A Thai boxer can swing a kick at a ju-jitsu boy and be evaded amd then find themselves with ruptured knee ligaments from a counter-technique. We all have merits in our styles and never forget that these skills were developed because the work in real life. It is the practioner, and not the style, that make them effective. Best to remember that.

[timmeh!]

Glad your ok!

I think Sc0tsg1t's experience pretty much gives the answer.

[deCadena]

some aikido systems do include strikes this is done so that the hand of the uke will weaken and thus the practitioner will be able to better maneuver his technique.

aikijutsu definitely has strikes, so does yoshinkan aikido. not certain on other systems though

[timmeh!]

I think Sc0tsg1t's experience pretty much gives the answer.[/B]

Had a bit of a think about it and there's very little you can do when hit from behind, but Sc0tsg1t's experience led him into a forward roll from the hit, giving space and a little time - thankfully!

If anything (apart from the excellent footwork drills;) ), the roll and breakfall are the best things I've learnt as a defensive technique in Aikido due to the space and time it does give you. This normally wouldn't happen if sprawled on the floor, possibly with an injured wrist as a persons first instinct is to put their arm out to break the fall...

I think any martial artist owes themselves the time spent in learning to fall and roll.

...if anything it's good fun and if you get it wrong there's always the pretty and flashy stars to keep you company. :D

[Sc0tsg1t]

I think the main thing that helped me was what timmeh! has highlighted a couple of times. It was my instinctive breakfall that really saved me as it bought me space and time. It probably also caused my assailants to pause for a bit giving me some more time.

What I found really hard to deal with though was the aftermath...you know, the adrenaline rush, the thoughts in my head of what could have happened.

Falling over really is fun, and sometimes can be a lifesaver.

[KenpoDavid]

glad you are OK, sounds like the thugs are in more pain than you are today.

and yeah I agree, case closed on the question of Aikido in a street fight!

[JAMJTX]

Aikido can be very effective in self defense. How effective it is depends on you - assuming you had a good teacher.
Take a look at the Japanese Police - Yoshinkan Aikido is widely taught in police departments. Why? Because it is powerfully effective.
As for NHB - they are not really NHB! The fact is that basic Aikido techniaques are banned in these. A friend of mine, from a dojo where we trained in Jujitsu and Aikido went on a short tour of some Gracie schools - by thier invitatation. He was brown belt in Jujitsu and Aikido. What worked best against them were the Aikido basics - Ikkyo, Nikkyo, Sankyo. But the Gracie guys kept telling him those were against the rules.
In the same class, a teacher who was also a Police officer once said that if anyone ever wants to tell you that Aikido "does not work" should come out on the street with him and see the look on a suspects face after feeling these techniques.
Aikido is Police proven!

[deCadena]

i think every art is pretty effective given the proper attention to real life situations. a lot of people have the concept that such and such can't be used on the streets and they are right with the way a lot of mcdojos is teaching.

i remember my friend saying that there is a dojo in NY that invites practitioners of other arts to have that feel as to how their aikido technique would fair. can people here validate this? am not sure.

just some thoughts. :)

[Sonshu]

If they are set up with more a Jujitsu attitude. Everytime I trained I wanted to take hold of the person and then to know I had control of them.

It is just my way of doing things as I always felt exposed when doing them in the Aikido way.

[Sonshu]

Are not illegal in NHB as far as I am aware.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Sonshu
If they are set up with more a Jujitsu attitude. Everytime I trained I wanted to take hold of the person and then to know I had control of them.

It is just my way of doing things as I always felt exposed when doing them in the Aikido way.
Sometimes I feel exposed, but I usually find out later its because I'm doing something, shall we say, wrong. Aikido entries can be done in a way that takes the attacker's balance. Then for that moment in time you do have control of the attacker.

But I'm a fan of jujitsu too.

[Sc0tsg1t]

Why do I get the distinct impression that most people view Aikidokas as martial ballarinas and think that aiki techniques should not have strength or intent behind their applications? The system was derived from aikijutsu and jujitsu and proper application of certain techniques still requires some phsyical effort. The religious and philosophical aspects of O Sensei seem to have resulted in Westerners losing the plot and associating Aikido with ball-room dancing. Aikido flows in a dojo as both uke and tori are working together but on the street things are different as the assailant is not compliant with your techniques. Proper dojo execution of aikido techniques requires that the uke resists enough so that the tori has to apply proper technique. Otherwise what is the point. We end up hearing from participants of other styles that Aikido is ineffective mainly due to the fact that the actual aikidoka in question has probably never had anyone actually resist their technique. This is not the styles fault, it is the practictioners. Train properly, and this is relevant to all styles as I know other practioners who struggle in 'real conflict', and all styles are effective. That is afterall why they were developed.

[deCadena]

my friend who has researched on daitoryu showed me some moves that were modified in a way and my oh my was i blown away. :)

[Sonshu]

To ensure the schools are working as the style should be otherwise it ends up with the perception it has now - also weed out poor instructers and help them to get with it.

This is somthing that other arts not just Aikido suffer with.

My 2p worth

[villarrg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vrax
[B]in the case of the jab cross combination the proper aiki technique is to step off the center line to the outside of the jab hand. that means that if the boxer wishes to connect with his cross he'll need to reach across his own center which sets him up for an easy throw. or you could step to the outside, then forward while parrying and use irimi-nage. this a neck twist throw which is very effective in any arena.



This the best defense I definitely agree, you could also do a tenkan if you wish.

[Sonshu]

Many Aikido people are lost with simple stuff like this.

Still its better to enguage the person and what you are saying is VERY hard to do if the punches are thrown right.

Tenkan I am not so keen on as you move yourself into a not so good side on position and possible you could be taken down where your art is little use on the floor.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Vrax
[B]in the case of the jab cross combination the proper aiki technique is to step off the center line to the outside of the jab hand.

..... and right into that left hook he was setting you up for by faking the cross :D

Just shows how irrelevant "he does this so I'll do that" scenarios are.

[Sc0tsg1t]

but we could argue this all day in one huge circle....

turns out I was prepared for the fake and decided instead to use an irmi technique on that left hook. Oops, he knew I would do that and had already moved into a leg trap. Lucky I expected that and the result was the both of us fighting without gain for months on end Matrix-stylee.

Seriously, I still can't believe we are discussing whether a style is effective. Any style can ONLY be as effective as the exponent. Shall we start discussing whether a heavy caliber machine gun is really effective in combat or whether a kitchen knife is better at cutting or chopping (please no answers as I'm not that dumb)?

[YODA]

I hear you Sc0tsg1t :D

[aikiMac]

Thanks guys.

Now and then I browse the Web for aikido discussions. The last one I found was Tung Fu. I wish I never found it. The TF veterans hurt my feelings by ridiculing me and ridiculing aikido. It’s “ineffective,” they all said. “In a real fight, it isn't worth toffee,” they said. (They’re Brits.) “Aikido serves no purpose for self-defence. In all other respects it is a fine past-time, but strictly speaking it should not be defined as a MARTIAL art,” they said. And on and on, and they posted personal attacks against me as well. In short, my feelings were deeply hurt by their rudeness and by, what I consider to be, their immature attitude toward the martial arts.

The TF experience made me very appreciative of MAP. So, I thank you all for your welcoming nature and your respectful comments. I’m glad I found MAP, and this thread is an example of why I like MAP.

And I agree with Scotsg1t too: Any style, be it aikido or muay thai or kali or anything, is only as effective as the exponent. I train with two dan-rank aikido guys whom I would not want to fight in a dark alley. I’ve also known people in several other martial arts whom I would not want to fight in a dark alley. All the arts are good.

Speaking of aikido, I recently saw the “Takemusu” tape of O-Sensei made when he was 68-72 years old. I’ve seen enough professional boxing matches to know what “fast” is, but I tell you what, modern boxers have nothing on O-Sensei. That old man was fast. I would not want to fight him in a dark alley either.

[cripplefujitsu]

Hey allo, just thought I'd ask y'all to evaluate the term "threat assessment"....a competent practititioner of aikibujitsu--samurai aikido--doesn't let a threatening presence close enough to jab before reacting. It's all about the spacing, gents....anyone on here ever heard about the concepts of "redundant safety" or "kirikesh?".....I realize that Obata-san's school of aikido is very different from what is taught widely........however, sooo much of what I'm taught in aikido can handle jabs it's ridiculous.it's in understanding aikido as a movement form as much as a dueling style........'cooperative aikido' that is 'all about the love and the universe' might falter against the random, aggressive nature of a street fighter, but old-school military aikibujitsu offers a bit more depth.

[Sonshu]

It was me that used the example of the Jab Cross - low kick as its something in all the Aikido schools I have done and I have not seen anyone defend against anything as obvious as a jab cross let alone the low kick.

This is why I used it as there is a great empasis on the one shot attack and a hammer fist or hook or lapel grab etc.

TF I post on as Sonshu and have posted on the Aikido thread and Yoda is right in saying what he did but I was looking at reading peoples replies and thoughts to see how people would deal with this sort of common attack.

The guys on TF can be tough but don't let them bully you and there are some good things on it and experienced people there but its mostly a MMA site now.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Sonshu
It was me that used the example of the Jab Cross - low kick as its something in all the Aikido schools I have done and I have not seen anyone defend against anything as obvious as a jab cross let alone the low kick.

I went to a Frank Doran seminar in Jan '03. He taught us a couple defenses to the jab-cross combination. However, none of my instructors to date have done it in our regular classes. That's to bad. I'd like to see more of it.

[Sonshu]

but

I have seen some footage of Frank Dorran and I though it was really bad.

Sorry

Its on Kazaar if you wanna look.

[aikiMac]

What's the address for Kazaar? I searched for "kazaar" and didn't get anything about video clips.

[Cain]

It's kazaa.

get it here -

http://www.kazaalite.tk

|Cain|

[hairynipples]

Hello everyone...

I just stumbled onto this site last nite and started my MAP experience with this thread and it's such a treat to take in ideas by people who know something about what they're talking about and have personal experience to back it up.

I've been taking aikido for 7 months now and I absolutely love it. I'm am just now realising what it's about and what it requires to master, and how the theories can be applied to everyday life and situations. I'm just now at the point where seiza doesn't hurt anymore, and I'm learning to move my hip and waist instead of my arms and legs. It's amazing how clear a concept becomes after you've been practicing it for so long. This has taught me that just because our eyes see something doesn't mean we actually SEE what's goin on. And that my friends can be applied to everything.

To me Aikido is a philosophy which deals in combat as well as mental, spiritual and personal growth - and I love it all baby!!

Cheers!

--Hairynipples

[bearhug]

Hi everybody,

After reading this thread I am surprised that nobody mentioned Hapkido yet. These two Martial Arts derive from the same root (aikijitsu). The ideas of many techniques are very close in these arts, with Hapkido being more applied and brutal, and Aikido being more abstract and forgiving. Hapkido has a reputation of being a highly effective MA; therefore Aikido techniques that are built on the same ideas should work as well.

The only problem that is present in Aikido is the practicing environment. Aikido does not include punching or kicking in its curriculum, and uke that never practiced striking before cannot provide real attack.

In order to perform a technique in the real fight it should be at the level of a motor skill, which means repeating it thousands times in free sparing with a skilled opponent.


Hapkido includes striking training and sparring with opponents who know how to attack, thus providing better environment to condition oneself to apply twisting and throwing techniques in a real fight.

[Virtuous]

First and foremost, welcome to MAP bearhug!
bearhug
The only problem that is present in Aikido is the practicing environment. Aikido does not include punching or kicking in its curriculum, and uke that never practiced striking before cannot provide real attack

This varies from dojo to dojo, I put alot of emphasis on striking technique for that very reason. If the dojo is more spiritually oriented that it is self defense wise striking ould probably not be as emphasised. It also depends on the ukes personality, some folks are not naturally aggressive.

Yes Hapkido has derive from the same roots as aikido but they are two very different arts. They do share some principals but thats about it. I have tried both and finally settled on aikijutsu but that is personal prefrence.

Hapkido has it's merrits but that wasnt the question :).

[timmeh!]

Hi bearhug,

(welcome to MAP! :D)

I think your right to a degree, but the 'rightness' comes down to the other Aikidoka in the club. Most people at our club have either come from a punching and kicking art, or are currently cross-training in at least one other art. So there's a lot of different experience.

I can see your point as to the realness of it all, but there's a few points... (I'm 4th kyu so all this is my own thoughts and could be pants. I'll try and get Tintin, our Sensei to maybe write something).
First you've got to learn the technique, then you've got to learn footwork to firstly get out of the way then apply the technique. Then roll all that up into one and throw in a full attack from a resisting uke. Very different to a lot of practice on the mat. But full resistance Randori (sorry Tintin, can't remember the name... toshu maybe???) and competitions provide the realness, in Shodokan at least.
My own personal thoughts are that Aikido takes probably a year to get to know it even slightly at 2 or 3 times a week (depending on club and Sensei). I'm finding Aikido a very deep art, with a lot of subtlety. I suppose you've got to bear in mind that O'Sensei came from hard martial arts and developed Aikido in response to an attack from someone from that background.
Aikido has the Atemi waza that does provide a fairly quick grounding in striking and avoidance if someone wants to learn self defence fairly quickly. However there are harder martial arts that will teach the basics in a shorter space of time, but will focus on damaging an opponent (IMO). Whereas Aikido seems to take longer to learn because the intention is only to immobilise your opponent, not damage them - which is the difference.

Tim

[Gravity]

Aikido and its precursor art Aikijujitsu are effective in real street encounters only when the techniques are embodied in one's muscle memory. When these fighting arts are already part of one's reptilian reflexes and thus, free from the bondage of thought & analysis, they can be truly devastating and if brought to their extremes - lethal. However, it takes many years of constant practice to cloak the whole of Aikido (and its more brutal cousin Aikijujitsu) into your reflex system. So, a month's practice does not even begin to scratch the surface of these arts.

Let me share to you my experience (At this point, I must emphasize that I did not think nor did I immediately remember the technique that I had executed. It was only days after the incident that I could come up with an analysis):

"It was a late afternoon. While walking on the street, a toughie mistook me for a member of a warring fraternity, accosted me and suddenly let loose a roundhouse kick. The guy's lighting movement plus the surprise of the moment gave me barely enough time to deflect his kick but I was still hit hard on the rib cage and it sent me staggering. I hopped back and looked around - wary for his comrades but I saw none.

With a yell, the man again threw a (right) front kick followed up with a (right) punch. This time, my reflexes kicked in and I executed a tenkan maneuver, deflected his kick with my right hand, deflected his punch with my left tegatana, and within the same tai-sabaki movement, plowed my left elbow in an atemi deep into his ribcage. Without breaking the fluidity, my left arm formed into a blade and rammed up into his throat (sort of an osae-yo nage technique) while my right hand slipped under his right leg and pulled up. Unbalanced, his legs were swept from under him and gravity did the rest. He fell backwards and clung desperately to my left arm but I instinctively dropped low, causing his head to hit the concrete pavement with a sickening crunch. For a long time, he just lay there breathing in gasps.

I looked around me and saw several people staring. I quickly walked away, hailed a passing taxi and fled the scene before someone would call the police. I did not know what happened to the man afterwards. I guess he survived because I was monitoring the news for a week and there was no mention about the incident."

So on hindsight, the surprise and speed of the moment did not even permit me to use wrist and jointlock techniques. The adrenaline dump would have wrecked my fine motor coordination to execute them properly. But hey, the throwing techniques were there and reflex and gravity were my allies.

Barring firearms, Aikido and Aikijujitsu, if applied to their battle forms for which they were designed could finish fights in mere seconds.

[xplasma]

This was my first thread/ post to the forum I did this summer. This turned to be a great thread, thanks you everyone who responsed.

BTW this is my excuse to be the 100th response to this thread.

[Mr Blobby]

You may want to read Roy Suenaka Sensei's book on Aikido (there is only one, so it should be easy to find). He studied under O Sensei while he was a GI during the occupation of Japan, and provides unique testimony on its effectiveness in brawls. He also was the first to open a dojo successfully in Okinawa - attempts before him were spoiled by local karateka going to the dojo and demonstrating their skills on the various sensei! But where others failed to stand up to it, Suenaka succeeded...

It varies from dojo to dojo, but in mine, there is certainly practice of and emphasis on good atemi (strikes). Certainly, O Sensei employed them liberally, as you can see in any photo or video of his demonstrations.

I think it is important for aikidoka to practice receiving all kinds of attacks, including kicks, and sadly there is not enough emphasis on this most dojos (even mine), but you will find several web resources showing sensei applying techniques against all kinds of kicks and armed attacks. Notably, you may also want to look at Suenaka Sensei's syllabus (Google it!).

One last thing - Aikido was developed directly from Daito-Ryu Jujitsu, a classical system under which O Sensei trained. Presumably, some of the Daito-Ryu techniques have found their way into ninjitsu, as they have Hapkido, but it would be a mistake to argue that Aikido 'comes from' ninjitsu. The jo techniques were developed by O Sensei in part from Shinto Muso-Ryu, and allegedly in part from the Yamabushi, a sect of mountain priests. His bokken kata are an eclectic form of kendo and Daito-Ryu kenjutsu techniques, as far as I am aware.

[Floorismyfriend]

Originally posted by knife fighter
Ever hear of Shaolin kung fu? Would you like to fight an adult Shaolin monk? Do you think he learned how to fight in one month?

I don't know what ninpo is, but I know what krav maga and BJJ are. Maybe you shouldn't be taking aikido. Mixing aikido with BJJ and krav maga is like drinking beer while eating chocolate candy and then complaining that your candy doesn't taste good. They don't belong together.

KM and BJJ are about fighting. Aikido is about not fighting. KM and BJJ teach you how to fight. Aikido teaches you how to not fight. In KM and BJJ you charge your opponent. In aikido you wait for the attack to come to you. In KM and BJJ you use your muscles against your opponent's muscles. In aikido you don't even have an opponent because you're not fighting, but semantics aside, in aikido you don't use your muscles. You use the other guy's muscles. In KM and BJJ you get in the other person's face so that you can hit, choke, whatever. In aikido you get out of his face, and get out of his way altogether.

You get the picture? They're opposites.

Krav maga was designed for war, literally. Aikido was designed with the hope of stopping war. BJJ was designed for street fights, literally. Aikido was designed to stop street fights. They're opposites.

That said, aikido can work just as well as KM or BJJ in a street fight, but it's going to take a lot more time to develop fighting skill from aikido than from either KM or BJJ. Have you considered that aikido was designed to deal with multiple attackers, but KM and BJJ were not? That should mean something to you.

The Shaolin monks didn't learn their kung fu in a month, but crimey! I sure don't want to fight them. In six months of KM you can go from nothing to pretty good. Street-fighting self-defense skill will be there. BJJ might require two years before viable self-defense skills appear because it's a more complicated art. Aikido is exponentially more complicated than BJJ. You'll probably have to stay with aikido six years before the street-fighting skills begin to surface. It's a much more complicated martial art, but when you learn it, yikes, the stuff does work.
Lol 2 years?
Stick to talking about aikido because you know nothin about BJJ.
Brazilian jujitsu is probably the easiest martial arts to teach not counting boxing.
I met somone who claimed he practiced aikido back in philly. We had a friendly spar goin. I faked a punch he reacted and i dove for his ankles. I passed his guard easier than a greezed water slide on a hot summer day. I donno but maybe he just started taking aikido but he was really cocky due to the fact he was 50lbs over me. At the time I had been taking ju jitsu for about a month and a half. I had personal lessons from a relative.

[Sonshu]

It is so good because of its simplicity and its been pressure tested.

Aikido takes so long to learn because of its lack of effectiveness and that it tries to do all its SD with minimal strength and is far from a complete art.

Aikido is not complicated as there are not many moves involved in its core teachings, its hard to make it work as it relies on so many things being right and the attacked over doing his punches etc. It takes 6 years because it is a far less effective style, granted there may be good fighters out there at SD but I think there are many more who have no ability really.

No one wants to do a martial art for 6 years before they can get a basic level of SD, kind of defeats the object if you ask me.


:Angel:

[Floorismyfriend]

Sonshu.
PREACH ON!!!
TESTIFY!!!
HALELUYAH!!
But seriously hes right about the martial arts shouldnt take soo long to learn. Especially pure self defense arts like aikido.

[Sonshu]

I train with BJJ guys and have trained and studied Aikido as well. I found I could not trust the versions that are simerler to Jujitsu as it felt like I never had hold of anyone to control them.

I like to control people as you know whats going on more and levels of compliance and many students look at you when you do not move from there wrist lock. Hey I was putting minimal resistance in it but still they did not seem to believe in there moves much themselves.

This has been the three times I have tried to get to grips with this art as well.

[Sc0tsg1t]

Can I just mention that boxing is a truly ineffective martial art as some guy threw a punch at me which I evaded and effectively countered involving quite a bit of pain to him.

Good God gents, maybe you just weren't very good at aikido. Maybe it was beyond you, and Sonshu you must secretly really want to learn it if you have attempted to do so 3 times. Have you tried a proper instructor instead of a book?

[Sonshu]

Trained with a few 4th Dans so I guess they should know what they are doing.

However my guy feeling of if they could defend themselves from me was minimal if I am honest.

Also Boxers who are good will close you down so quickly as there shots are so quick that it will take you a good 3 blows to be landed before you can perfrom a simple tenkan.

Thats the difference!

Hey I really wanted to learn Aikido, I took what I could from it and left the majorits as there are some great moves in it but so many ones that for me Jujitsu does better.

[Disaster Master]

I think that Aikido’s record in MMA competitions speaks for it’s self.

[Matt_Bernius]

Two interesting quotes from Ueshiba Sensei:

"In a real battle, atemi (punching/kicking) is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent"

"Atemi accounts for 99% of Aikido"

I think that this (and I'll speak carefully as I'm not an Aiki practioner, but it's on my to do list) is something thats lost on a lot of modern Aikido schools. O Senei acknowledged that you needed to punch/kick to get to a position where you could apply you technique in context.

Unfortunately it seems like a lot of modern schools have so de-emphasize Atemi that they have begun to neuter the art. This is similiar to trend to teach Tai Chi for the medicinal purposes.

In any case it seems like Aiki Jujitsu might be more up the original posters alley.

[Sc0tsg1t]

Sonshu,

I don't mean to really have a go but I'm talking about self-defence using Aikido from a stand point that I have used it and lived. A 4th Dan may be good but as in any style if all you practice is movement and technique without practical application then you are cheating yourself of a valuable lesson. Too many aikidoka seem to have this belief that there techniques must look beautiful and have minimal effort. Minimal does not mean none however and different opponents require different degrees of effort to the techniques.
Maybe it is this false belief of instant spiritual benevolence and kindness to all animals that stops aikidoka from applying proper technique. Maybe they have no idea how messy a technique can get in a pressure environment of a ring or street situation. But as I keep on saying, it is the person and what they put into their style that will result in what they get out of it. Otherwise we would have every student of Jeet Kune Do whupping every body in the street like Bruce Lee, every kick-boxer would be like Bill Wallace etc. Do you get my point?

Regarding techniques being too complicated to be effective from early on then think again. Are you telling me a novice boxer without ring experience or a <insert martial art here> student without street training will be able to cope well in a real life struggle. Barring their already inherent personality then they will also be at a loss. Initial difficulty experienced by all is a lack of knowledge regarding the appropriate technique at the necessary time. Aikidoka are no different than anyone else. Yet if I teach a basic technique such Kotogaeshi to an experienced jujitsu or kung fu guy then they will have a greater percentile chance of being able to apply the technique at the appropriate time.

Things go pear shaped when you try a technique that is inappropriate to the situation. I respect your decision to take what you felt was good to you and that you have found jujitsu better to your mindset and physicality. I however have done both and favour the aikido side as my body just 'prefers' it. I can make it work in real life but I'm not adverse to a little of something else also. Guess that's experience for you. :)

[Sc0tsg1t]

It is an individual who enters a contest. Most aikidoka would never of dreaming of entering an MMA. Haven't seen many kendo or iaido guys either but I wouldn't say their skill set is useless.

You seem to have this impression that a style is only effective if it destroys exponents of other martial arts. Yup, where I live in the world even babies are masters of ninjitsu or kung fu. I quake in my boots at the ineffectiveness of my style and fear my safety at all times.

Please. I can't believe I'm still being confronted by this level of martial arts ignorance. What next? You going to challenge me to a fight to prove once and for all that your style is better than my style. Shall we go to the toilet and compare peckers? Cause I wee higher does that make mine better and yours useless?

get a grip and shed the ignorance.

[Sonshu]

side and in order to be able to use if effectivly it goes back to its original form and for me it just becomes jujitsu.

People want to make it this light technique and as you said in the real world things get messy. This is what happens and Aikido people that I have learnt from - and there are lots for me seem un accustomed to what happens if it goes wrong or what happens if your first technique goes wrong.

These are points that and respecting SD martial art really needs to conside and Aikido is the least physical art I have done.

[Disaster Master]

“Disaster Master please take head out of behind”

Ad Hominem attacks do not prove your position.

MMA competitions are the only way we have to compare the different styles empirically.

[Sc0tsg1t]

I have flu so I apologise if I get a bit testy and juvenile. I understand your point but the thread is regarding aikido in a real fight. Not a competition bound by rules.

[Cain]

Yeesh! This thread is going nowhere, if the original poster wants to find out if it's effective or not he/she can try it out for themselves, it's pretty pointless not to mention stupid asking "wether it will work?" on an internet forum.

If you want to know wether it will work you can try it out for yourself as simple as that, I have seen it and it looked good enough to me, I'd probably get my arm tore off by one of them, but then that's my opinion.

|Cain|

[Disaster Master]

Originally posted by Sc0tsg1t
I have flu so I apologise if I get a bit testy and juvenile

No problem dude, sucks being sick.

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by Sonshu
side and in order to be able to use if effectivly it goes back to its original form and for me it just becomes jujitsu.

Interesting question... where does jujistu stop and Aikido begin? Probably worthy of another forum thread. Especially when you look at "hard" Aikido types like Yoshinkan Aikido.

Ok... I'm off to start my first MAP thread! :-)

[nicolo]

NHB isn't even an art...it's a MIXED martial art combat sport. How can you compare pure Aikido to some hybrid art that was created? Of course a NHB fighter can eventually triumph over an Aikidoka. Why? Because the NHB fighter is an evolved fighter who more or less trains in all the unarmed ranges of combat...sort of a "JKD-ish" type of thinking. NHB is comprised of a combination of arts. Aikido is only a single traditional style developed for the mid to close range. You have to keep in mind that PURE arts all have advantages and disadvantages. Aggressive striking arts can fall short in the face of grappling arts. Grappling arts can sometimes fall short in the range of striking arts...etc etc. Striking and grappling can both fall short in the face of weapons, etc etc.
In the realm of a streetfight, there are so many factors and variables that can change at the drop of a hat. You cannot expect a single art like Aikido to be the cure for all that. Keep in mind Aikido centers around movements of the ken. Bring that up to modern times and it is effective for static grabbing situations and/or situations where opponents are reaching to you or charging to you. Tons of law enforcement ppl, security ppl, bouncers, etc use some component of aikido or aiki-like arts.
I have unfortunately had to resort to using components of Aikido during real life scenarios...however, as with a PURE art, it must be modified for the street because the street scenario is an ever changing scenario.

[Mr Blobby]

Sorry, Nicolo, but as a keen aikidoka myself, I can't agree that it is a 'pure' martial art, or in fact that that there is any such thing.

Aikido is a highly eclectic amalgam of bits and pieces that O-Sensei took from several martial arts, in which I believe lies its strength.

Even something as 'pure' as Okinawan karate orginated in Chinese kung-fu, which again allegedly may have had origins in India... So if there's any such thing as a pure martial art, then Aikido's not it, and it's not right for us to look down on modern hybrids - because Aikido is really just that.

[Floorismyfriend]

Originally posted by Sc0tsg1t
I have flu so I apologise if I get a bit testy and juvenile. I understand your point but the thread is regarding aikido in a real fight. Not a competition bound by rules.
So aikido has eye gouging techniques or groin punching?
Because other than those 2 things I am pretty sure aikido would be legal in the ring.

[Freeform]

Small joint locks are banned and there are rules concerning excessive avoidance.

So there goes one of the main principles and a good portion of the techniques.

Colin

[Floorismyfriend]

In the early ufc the only thing that was banned was eye gouging.
Groin and small joints where all legit targets. Even then aikido never sucessfully surfaced.

[Sc0tsg1t]

of the aikidoka?

avoiding conflict sure seems like a correct and valid use of aikido - seeking conflict goes against the mindset of the aikidoka.

that of course doesn't mean that his techniques are useless or ineffective. it just means that he chooses to avoid a fight rather than pick one.

also, I'm getting pretty bored stating that the thread concerns aikido in a so-called 'real fight'. I have used it to successfully defend myself in a real fight situation. Thus proveth the thought. It works. I haven't entered a UFC fight despite holding an instructors qualification and having many years of mma practice. why? because the idea just doesn't float my boat. does that then make my skills and knowledge useless compared to a jujitsu exponent? maybe it does to you but I beg to differ.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Floorismyfriend
In the early ufc the only thing that was banned was eye gouging.
Groin and small joints where all legit targets. Even then aikido never sucessfully surfaced.

Neither did JKD, Tang Soo Do, Capoeira, Tae Bo, Viet Vo Dao, Wing Chun, Eskrima ans countless others.

What's UFC got to do with the thread?

[Sonshu]

of the style as I know someone was asking if anyone had used it on another Aikido thread.

What was the senario please?

[Sc0tsg1t]

Sonshu,
I actually detailed one of the instances (guess my ugly face attracts trouble) on this thread.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=64146#post64146

[Sonshu]

I like the footwork from Aikido and don't get me wrong I just feel the art would benefit so much more in other schools from adding strong strikes and kicks as well.

Kicks for me are a good point and suprised the art does not adapt to include this???

[Sc0tsg1t]

I too feel that stronger kicks and strikes should be more prevalant in aikido schools. I am lucky in that I have been taught to finish an opponent with said powerful disabling strikes.

Guess at the end of the day it comes down to the instructor (doesn't it always) to add that to his curriculum.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Sonshu
I like the footwork from Aikido and don't get me wrong I just feel the art would benefit so much more in other schools from adding strong strikes and kicks as well.

Kicks for me are a good point and suprised the art does not adapt to include this???
I love the footwork.

Strong strikes and kicks generally run counter to the goal of aikido; hence, they are not popular. However, when an aikido entry succeeds, the uke/attacker/opponent often ends up within striking range of a knee. Go ahead and throw it. On the flip side, ordinary traditional aikido does have defenses against kicks. I haven't seen them very often in my schools and seminars, and I really don't know why that is.

[Sonshu]

Much of the traditional teaching has been lost so many more experienced Aikido people tell me.

I know its not the way of Aikido but if it works then do it, this is my simple view of things as if the other person is able to use kicks then I should etc.

[nicolo]

My real life scenario was an attempted mugging on a subway platform. Guy approached me holding a small knife up to me at chest level and proceeded to pressure me up against the wall. I circled away from the wall, parried his knife hand away with my right, spun in a tenkan movement and ended up with a good grip on his knife hand - knife and all. I stepped out and cranked his wrist back very hard in a kotegaeshi movement and the pressure must have made him let go of the knife. But he was fighting back and was swaying his body back around to punch me with his free hand. I ended up eating a few on the head before circling away from his punches and dragged him by the wrist downwards to the ground and then up into sankyo. He was trying to free his hand but I hit him in the face and I wrapped my right hand around his head pulling it towards me while throwing him forward. He missed his step over the edge of the platform and crashed onto the tracks. I kicked the knife away to the other side of the tracks and there were people up in the front of the station that were just sitting there stunned I guess. A few guys thought it was amusing at first and they were asking me "oh sh*t, you ok man??"...someone called out to the token clerk to get the police. The assailant fell hard and smashed his leg on the tracks and had to be helped up by some guys. but nevertheless I was just defending myself, at least that's what I told the cops when they arrived so I wasn't charged with any aggravated assault. It was different story for the mugger. He wasn't a textbook uke but somehow I neutralized his attack.

[Sc0tsg1t]

at least what you knew saved you and unfortunately those pesky attackers just don't seem to play like a standard club-issue uke ;)

[nicolo]

yah...I dunno how I did it but it was pretty frightening when I look back because a knife was involved. I walked away with scratches and a bruise on my forehead. I could have been stabbed and I was at best gokyu at the time.

[aikiwolfie]

Hmm this is an old thread I know but I'm new here and i can't pass this one by.

Personaly i thought Nimpo and Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu ... whatever were created by the Ninja. Who were a counter culture in Japan to the Samurai. However most Ninja were infact disafected or outcast Samurai forced to live in secrecey.

So to end my pointless post ... you trained for a month ... ok and in that time you attended how many classes? See you waisted your time back then just like I'm wasting mine now ... ok I'm done

[aikiwolfie]

Nicolo you're meant to wait until a train is passing before you execute the dump-em-on the tracks technique.

[korutsuki]

TO you Xplasma,
A hunter who runs for the both rabbits neither catches one!! Even if Hatsumi sensei heard ur first topic sure will be in shame !! u humiliated ninpo, aikido and more than that the spirit of Martial art!!
U r a qurrelsome person,definitley!!

[xplasma]

Originally posted by korutsuki
TO you Xplasma,
A hunter who runs for the both rabbits neither catches one!! Even if Hatsumi sensei heard ur first topic sure will be in shame !! u humiliated ninpo, aikido and more than that the spirit of Martial art!!
U r a qurrelsome person,definitley!!

so by not accepting an art with blind faith and asking questions about it, is an insult. sure....., it is ok korustuki, don't cry it going to be ok.

[korutsuki]

Xplasma, dont misunderstand me!! faith means everything !! may be one day u will be one of the greatest fighter!! !!
If u think I insulted u !! forgive me !! may be I have a bad soul!!

[Sonshu]

This is how we keep things live and moving.

[Jordan]

All I can tell you is Aikido saved my life in two Real Fights, but I've been doing MA for 2 and a half years.

[Sonshu]

Or stopped you getting a beating - two are very different?

Please explain your post further.

Cheers

[nicolo]

Nicolo you're meant to wait until a train is passing before you execute the dump-em-on the tracks technique.

hah, making human pancakes goes against the principle of nonviolence right?

[Poop-Loops]

so by not accepting an art with blind faith and asking questions about it, is an insult. sure....., it is ok korustuki, don't cry it going to be ok.

From your sig it seems like you are taking a million styles at once -- and in the beggining stages of them all. Insulting (your first post blatantly said "Aikido isn't effective") something that you have no idea about just makes you look stupid.

Questioning is fine. Have you said something like "How does so-and-so work?" would have beeing a question. Saying Aikido sucks because YOU suck at using it is stupid.

PL

[aikiwolfie]

It probably does but you could always argue you didn't push him violently onto the tracks. And the train only squished him cause it was heavy. lol

[Dave Humm]

YAWN
Aikido in real fights.. I never get tired of reading this bull****.

Anymore for anymore debate on how effective/ineffective it may or not be ?

Lets drop the "do" part of "Aiki" and start talking MARTIAL for a moment.

While you lot debate the practicality of Aiki, I'll just nip down to my dojo and grab my shibasen bokken and you can debate practicality to that, while I bash it several times on one's forehead.

And if we want to extend the debate to knife fights, you bring the knife and I'll swap my bokken for a shinken, then we'll debate the practicality of Aiki Ken while someone calls for an ambulance.

However, if you want to discuss the application of hand techniques in a "live" situation. Stop waffling on about the perceived ineffectiveness and study it for a while. AIKIDO isn't simply about self defence. I read this and similar debates and frankly the majority of people who start them don't know WTF their talking about. Aikido isn't BJJ but so many people want to compare the two. Aikido isn't a grappling art although some people *think* it is because we practice Osae Waza.

If you thought I was being sarcastic in my opening of my post then you'd be right. If you thought I was being daft, you'd also be right because, and quite frankly this sort of debate isn't worth anything else.

If on the other hand, someone with many years experience came here and posted their thoughts upon the effectiveness of Aikido then I'd welcome that discussion because it would be based upon time served in learning the discipline before making sound judgement on that experience. Not however based upon a mere blink of an eye's worth of practice.
"...I started Aikido 1 month ago..."
Jeez that sums it all up in one sentance

Dave

[xplasma]

YAWN
Aikido in real fights.. I never get tired of reading this bull****.

Anymore for anymore debate on how effective/ineffective it may or not be ?

Lets drop the "do" part of "Aiki" and start talking MARTIAL for a moment.

While you lot debate the practicality of Aiki, I'll just nip down to my dojo and grab my shibasen bokken and you can debate practicality to that, while I bash it several times on one's forehead.

And if we want to extend the debate to knife fights, you bring the knife and I'll swap my bokken for a shinken, then we'll debate the practicality of Aiki Ken while someone calls for an ambulance.

However, if you want to discuss the application of hand techniques in a "live" situation. Stop waffling on about the perceived ineffectiveness and study it for a while. AIKIDO isn't simply about self defence. I read this and similar debates and frankly the majority of people who start them don't know WTF their talking about. Aikido isn't BJJ but so many people want to compare the two. Aikido isn't a grappling art although some people *think* it is because we practice Osae Waza.

If you thought I was being sarcastic in my opening of my post then you'd be right. If you thought I was being daft, you'd also be right because, and quite frankly this sort of debate isn't worth anything else.

If on the other hand, someone with many years experience came here and posted their thoughts upon the effectiveness of Aikido then I'd welcome that discussion because it would be based upon time served in learning the discipline before making sound judgement on that experience. Not however based upon a mere blink of an eye's worth of practice.

Jeez that sums it all up in one sentance

Dave
Well it been about 6 months now (off and on, when I went back to school, I started up with the local club on campus). I have come to this, The problem I have with Aikido is that the techniques are effective, but you have to pull them off. i don't see these technequies being pulled off without a strike to stun the oponnent.

Also I don't study all these art at once, these are arts I have exprience in, I tend to do 2 or 3 at a time, but I work, to go school, and live at home in 3 different places, so my training got varied in the last 4 years. They why a lot of the them are at the beginning stages, but I been training ninpo for around 4 years and and about half way to Shodan. Most ninpo Dojos take about 6-10 years for Shodan.

[Virtuous]

The problem I have with Aikido is that the techniques are effective, but you have to pull them off. i don't see these technequies being pulled off without a strike to stun the oponnent.

Practice good Atemi Waza, thump em good and often :). An 'accidental' elbow to the chin/ribs/gut, head butt, punch, knee, foot stomp, etc etc. This of course is coming from an Aiki-jujutsu stand point. Not really sure if the implementation of liberal atemi's are frowned upon in the Aikido circle. To me its just a tool to inflict pain to disrupt mental kazushi. Good to see you got back into it and it sounds like you're enjoying it.

[Sonshu]

"To me its just a tool to inflict pain to disrupt mental kazushi"

I am sure you did not post this to sound like it is but they atemi should be done with conviction and should be thrown with enough conviction to END THE FIGHT. In the Aikido schools I have checked out they have been thrown as a opener to the main move which is often far more complicated and the people have never really been hit to know how to react. I STRESS these are from my own findings but to me a strike should be thrown with the conviction of taking the guy out and then you use a technique from perhaps Aikido to take them down if they are still capable of being a threat.

Not just as an opener as this is propper attemi - VIEWS?

[Virtuous]

Sonshu
I STRESS these are from my own findings but to me a strike should be thrown with the conviction of taking the guy out

Oh I agree whole heartedly. If you're going to use an atemi you better make it count. It would be a waste of time and terribly ineficient if you didnt.

[aikiscotsman]

Remember Aikido is 90% Atemi, although we dont always practice every Striking point avalible to us because we have so much else to consider, but it should always be in our minds evey time we take uke balance or move of line there is something there for all striking arts. also uke should have the same feeling rather than waiting to be thrown so they can practice Aikido, they should always be looking at toris center to find escapes and kaisha waza(counter) As usual this is best done in buki waza aswell

[Musashi Kyo]

I would think seeing the street effectivness of TKD would be alot easier than Aikido. I dont see TKD being ineffective because strikes do hurt and TKD isnt just high roundhouse kicks. Aikido IMO involves a state of mind or attitude thats not offensive etc. Maybe not learning the right technique that should of been done could of been the case in its ineffectivness. Fro example its hard to do hip throw when your opponent doesn't give you the right circumstances.

[aikiscotsman]

Then dont try to use a hip throw. Its also hard to kick someone even below the hip if they are not in the best position. I think to many people want to see Aikido as a fighthing art when it is definatly not. There is abig difference between being a martial artist and a fighter.

[Sonshu]

Is far easier than doing a hip throw on them. There are elements of both arts that are usable on the street but I think often both styles suffer from "Rogue Trader" style McDojo's and the good ones amongst you suffer for it.

This is why I am suprised none of these styles have put in a barrier creating a clear difference between the good SD takes on the art and the more sport or martial art's for fun/health type clubs.

This is something I would think could serve to benefit us all.

[redbull]

first to clarify something aikido roots lies in daito ryu aiki jujitsu.

second is aikido effective well that depends on who u'r fighting if u are fighting an individual or group of individuals who have little or no training in martial arts then yes it is very effective. the reason being is that aikido requires a full commitment or an overextension in the attack of the opponent for u to be able to take advantage of his momentum and most untrained fighters attack in this manner. a trained martial artist simply will not commit enough in an attack for this to happen. For example a haymarket puch is easyy defended by an aikidoka with an irimi nage or kote gaeshi or whatever but a jab, right cross thrown by a boxer is not because the boxers puch retracts and does not leave the boxer off balance. same goes with a reverse punch from a karateka.

Also u must keep in mind that for someone to feel confortable enough to be able to use aikido will take at least 7 to 10 years. In the end aikido is a beautifull art that given the right sircumstance will have some effectiveness in a street fight. but if u want to learn how to fight, and u want to learn fast then u need something else like boxing, judo, bjj, muay thai, or karate to a lesser degree.

[aikiwolfie]

It might take 2 to three years for someone to be confident in using their aikido training in a fight. It certainly shouldn't take any where near 7 to 10 years. It normaly takes 3 to 5 years to become a 1st dan. I would certainly expect a black belt to be confident in their abilities.

How long have you been practicing Aikido redbull?

[redbull]

How long have you been practicing Aikido redbull?

i dont currently do aikido, but i did aikido in the past for 2 years. i would not feel comfortable using most of the aikido techniques i learned with an experienced fighter yet.

[aikiwolfie]

How long it takes to become confident in a fight is realy down to the individual. My estimates in my last post were based on how long it takes to acheive 1st kyu or 1st dan. This obviously varies depending on the dojo and teacher.

Do you mind if I ask why you stopped practicing?

[Sonshu]

I would be keen to know a few things about you and this is not to use it as a rod to start beating Aikido students on this forum but for some open discussion?

Height
Weight
Previous experience in MA
Fitness
Strength level

Also I would be keen to know if you think what the 2 years you did if it would help you against someone who did not grab your wrist or lapel or do an over done punch or shuto. This is again not to cause a flame war but for honest open discussion.

Hope you can help?

[redbull]

Do you mind if I ask why you stopped practicing?


i was doing aikido, and judo at the same time and did not have the time . so i decided to stick to judo because i get a better workout and i find it more effective.

[DexterTCN]

i was doing aikido, and judo at the same time and did not have the time . so i decided to stick to judo because i get a better workout and i find it more effective.

I did the same.

Once you are proficient in Judo...waste no time. Go to every Aikido class you can. Don't skip on the Judo proficiency.

[aikiwolfie]

When I did Judo the club available to me was far to competition orientated for my taste. Back then I did want to learn how to fight. I was never graded even after 3 years because I kept doing illegal moves. I wasn't doing anything particuarly bad I was just triping people up from behind when they tried to throw me. I just couldn't understand how that could be a bad thing to do. Especialy when some of the times I was doing it we were told to experiment and find a counter to the throw. I just couldn't get to grips with the 'illegal moves' thing lol.

[Sonshu]

Is a part of Judo but in the randori section it shows you can apply against a resisting person what you know.

Its an art I have a lot of respect for.

[WOspidermonkey]

Aikido did not derive from just ninjitsu but 200 martial arts that O'Sensei studied. His number one source was aiki-jutsu. Aikido originally had lethal strikes in it also but O'Sensei took them out due to his religion Omoto. If you learn the 5 basic techniques (Ikk, Ni, San, Yon, and Gokkyo) and the 4 basic throws (iriminage, kote-gaeshi, etc.) Then you are pretty much good to go. Learn basic strikes to enhance these techniques, ie. Shuto-uchi, open palm strike, straight punch, to complement your techniques. Martial arts are only effective after constantly training the techniques into muscle memory. Aikido's basic defenses with a few simple strikes in tow are all youll ever need for your defense of yourself or loved ones.

[redbull]

I would be keen to know a few things about you and this is not to use it as a rod to start beating Aikido students on this forum but for some open discussion?

Height
Weight
Previous experience in MA
Fitness
Strength level

Also I would be keen to know if you think what the 2 years you did if it would help you against someone who did not grab your wrist or lapel or do an over done punch or shuto. This is again not to cause a flame war but for honest open discussion.

Hope you can help?

Height =5'11"
Weight = 185 Pounds
Previous experience in MA = 4 years uechi ryu cross trained with three years of hapkido when i was a young kid. as an adult i've done two years in aikido cross trained with three years in judo. currently just started muay thai 2 months ago havent gone back to judo since the MT but i will, just taking a break, healing up all injuries and collecting new ones.
Fitness = average
Strength level = average

Overall I think that aikido would not be my natural reaction if i were attacked with a chutto, or lapel grab (In all the fights i've been in, which are not many, in i've never been attaked with any of these) because there other responces to these attacks that im more confident about doing such as punching/kicking/knee/elbow/throw/jointlock (when i say throw or joint lock i mean the judo kind). However if i were forced to defend myself against an attacker with a knife or gun then aikido has the best anwers along with the hapkido.

[master35]

Hi everyone,


I would like everyone opinion this. I started Aikido 1 month ago. I currently train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Bujinkan Ninpo, and Krav Maga. I am finding aikido to be very ineffective in reality fighting or even standard street fights. I have left my Tae Kwon Do training at Yellow Belt for the same reason. Can anyone give me input on this?


-plasm,a

can you give us a situation or an example of "reality fighting or even standard street fights"?

"very ineffective in reality fighting or even standard street fights"???? what do you mean??? :eek:

[bigd]

see i tok 13 14 styles and ninpo and aikido was one of them ninpo is more intense the problem with people and aikido is they cant understand the true meaning i hear alot of people complain about aikido what it is aikido so soft but in real life situation when you use it all of a sudden the guys on the ground hurting and real fast and noone knows what the hell happened to him your just a white belt get thru the aiki tiaso and mowe on you'll start to come around ill tell you one thing the throws aint soft

good luck

[Budd]

I've always found aikido to be useful, but then I'd already wrestled and played judo before I did any aikido. I think getting a base in a combative art (that trains against resistance) is a must -- before starting aikido -- if fighting effectiveness is your primary concern.

[madfrank]

Hi


I just read the 2 threads asking if you've used aikido in real fights its seems after reading all the threads the answer is no.
although you give lots of reasons why

Ueshiba used to do martial arts, aiki jutsu, then he had a break down thought he was god and invented aikido a way of reaching god

Don't any of you think aikijutsu would be a better thing for self protection?

MF

[Budd]

Interesting way of looking at it. I don't think the style matters as much as how you train. I've seen aikijutsu (and aikijujutsu) practices that are very stale and regimented, overly complex and don't have much in the way of practicality. I've also seen some excellent training sessions where little old people do some amazing things.

Funny thing is, I've seen the same thing with aikido . . .

The short answer is, if you want to learn to fight, the easiest way to do it is to go somewhere and fight. Study bjj and muay thai . . . submission wrestle and box. Those things will make you better fighters FAST!

[madfrank]

so are you saying dont do aikido to learn to fight? sounds like it

mf

[Budd]

Absolutely!

I think aikido is much more useful for learning to avoid and escape fights than it is for fighting.

[madfrank]

Are you a polatician?

so if you get mugged you've had it if you do Aikido?


MF

[Budd]

Are you a polatician?

Is that like a Polish politician or something? Er . . no, I'm not.

so if you get mugged you've had it if you do Aikido?


Well, if the mugger has a gun and shoots you, yes, aikido might not save you. Also, if the mugger has a knife and stabs you, aikido might not stop the bleeding. Hey, guess what, this applies to ALL OTHER martial arts as well.

Good work!

[madfrank]

Woah

I obviously touched a nerve here.

That was a typographical error i assure you.

So sarcasm aside, your aikido moves to disarm of which there are a lot don't work in your opinion.

MF

[Budd]

I obviously touched a nerve here.

Don't be so dramatic. I'm not so easily offended. Nor am I Polish or a politician.


So sarcasm aside, your aikido moves to disarm of which there are a lot don't work in your opinion.

I think that anyone (bjjer, MTer, mmaer, karateka, judoka, kung fu warrior) that's unarmed and facing someone that has a weapon is at a severe disadvantage. Now, explain to me how your last sentence was derived from what I previously wrote. I'm looking forward to watching the leaps and stretches.

[madfrank]

go back to sleep

MF

[Budd]

It might be a better use of my time.

Or, you could wake up . . .

[Freeform]

Easy gentlemen, play nice now.

So Budd, do you think that Aikido would give someone any advantage that an untrained person wouldn't have, if they were mugged?

Col

[Budd]

I certainly do.

I think aikido (practiced with integrity) on it's own will help equip someone with a better set of tools for dealing emotionally and physically with a variety of forms of aggression. Strictly from a physical perspective, it's attention to evasion, blending and off-balancing can give someone the advantage to get away from a situation. The actual physical techniques (if their combative applications are well understood and practiced) can be quite effective when used against an attacker.

But I don't equate being mugged with fighting and I still don't think aikido is the best thing to study in order to be a better fighter.

[aikiMac]

I certainly do.

I think aikido (practiced with integrity) on it's own will help equip someone with a better set of tools for dealing emotionally and physically with a variety of forms of aggression. Strictly from a physical perspective, it's attention to evasion, blending and off-balancing can give someone the advantage to get away from a situation. The actual physical techniques (if their combative applications are well understood and practiced) can be quite effective when used against an attacker.

But I don't equate being mugged with fighting and I still don't think aikido is the best thing to study in order to be a better fighter.
Joining late but ... I certainly do too. The advantage I see in aikido is its breadth: it can be applied to a wide spectrum of conflicts, much wider than other arts I've encountered.

I do consider mugging a type of fight, but I agree that aikido is not the best thing to study in order to be a better fighter. Take up boxing if you want to be a fighter. And have fun.

I've never had the misfortune of being mugged or getting into a fistfight with anyone, but a couple people at my dojo were mugged, and they successfully used aikido to avoid physical harm and to keep their belongings. A couple other people at my dojo successfully used aikido in fistfights, and walked away unhurt. Maybe they were lying, but when someone whom I consider a friend tells me a story to my face, I believe him, you know?

[aikiwolfie]

I would also consider being mugged as fighting, but it's not like a pre-arranged boxing match or a fist fight in the pub. You're acting in the heat of the moment on your wits and instinct alone. I think Aikido is absolutly ideal for this type of encounter.

I also think people tend to under estamate Aikido because they don't realise that the techniques taught in the dojo are for the most part simpley a teaching aid. Aikido isn't as limited as "if the attacker throws a right hook you do technique A or if it's a left jab you do technique B".

It's upto the student to take the ideas behind the techniques and apply them to the real world as required. The fact that the answers aren't all served up on a silver plater doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means the student has to put that bit more effort in to training to understand what's being taught and how he or she can use that to their advantage.

[aikisan]

i like it when people criticize aikido,coz i think these people have not really been in aikido for quite awhile,and they dont see the significance of it.they criticize alot but in there inner mind lies the real question they want to tell like <why on earth people still attend aikido when it is ineffective as to what as saw? its fake..etc...is there something that aikidoka knew that i dont know?> :confused:
in reality they criticize bcoz they want a strong explaination.
they attack in words but still aikidokas wont counterattack but guide and control them and send them on their way.
effectivity comes only after bout 3yrs of practice and it depends on ur instructor... i applied aikido on a pickpocketer when i was only a 5th Q.
and i was challenged by a black belter (i dont know what MA) when he saw me near the dojo wearing my green belt...what a jerk! :woo:

[Virtuous]

Aikisan, I look at it this way. You either like Aiki or you dont, and if you're willing to tough out the first few aggervating/humbling years the rewards are great. Those who criticize aiki are missing out on a whole lot and I pitty them.

On a side note, I was always tought that it is very poor etiquite to wear your rank outside of the dojo or where ever you happen to be training. It is kind of like flaunting a 'Im a bad ass, come get some' attitude and is just an open invitation for some one to challenge you.
I wear the rest of my uniform to and from class (got tired of carying bogu and my uniform in two heavy bags). I've never had a problem, but then again I also cary my shinken in hand :).

[aikisan]

i agree...
i like aiki very much.but honestly at first i feel doubts bout the techniques and i didnt feel like coming back,but i feel guilty since i'm not paying to attend the session coz my sensie told me so.
i usually wore my uniform from home since i got my car esp. when im late and its just bout five steps from the parking lot to the dojo door.and also i dont mean i actually wear my belt since i don't,i'm holding it...(sori wrong word used last time i'm not used to using english language,sori).maybe also its my fault,from then on i wear my tshirt and lower gi.
maybe this thread is dying. :Angel:
i dont feel like being challenged,
anyone wants to be challenged or longing to have one just to test their technique in real fight?

[Gravity]

Aikisan...

I assume that you're still new to Aikido so perhaps, you may get off with just a light tap on the wrist for wearing your belt and full gi outside of the dojo.

Aikido is Budo and to follow Budo is to show humility that can be expressed by not flaunting your belt or better yet, not wearing your gi in full view outside of the dojo. In my opinion, the gi when worn outside of the dojo is kinda inflammatory. It does attract people who are prone to violence and opens you up to many challenges. Then, because your careless act was to incite a confrontation however, subtle, you have done exactly the opposite of Aikido which was to avoid conflict.

If you care to listen, I may say that I also had the same problem before when I used to walk to the dojo (i did not have a car before). Stowing my bokken and my jo and my olisis (two arnis sticks... yes, we did mix a bit of esrima here) out of sight was always a problem. My solution was to wrap all of them in newspaper and roll the bundle in a cloth. I would stick it on the side pocket of my back pack. Better for people to mistake me for some weird musician and leave me alone.

Also, in Aikido, a subtle and often overlooked reason why Hakamas are worn among instructors and students alike is to hide the color of your belt because the moment one attains the Dan ranks is also moment when one must also restrain the rise of his ego. It is hoped that the Hakamas will prevent undue & unnecessary comparison. To the junior (kyu) students, all instructors must appear the same and equal.

I hope that I have imparted one of the true essences of Aikido.

[aikiwolfie]

I've never heard that reason for wearing a hakama before. I don't see how it hides your grade. Everybody in the Dojo knows the dan grades wear hakamas. Aside from that the belt is still clearly visable at the sides. Anybody who cares enough to look can clearly see if the belt is black, white or coloured.

If you wish to empart the "true essences of Aikido" at least embrace them your self and pay attention to what's being posted. Aikisan said he didn't actually wear his belt, he was holding it.

As for the wearing of a gi to and from the Dojo, it's a matter of etiquette. The rules are also different for every Dojo. Some teachers don't like it while others couldn't careless. It has nothing to do with the "true essences of Aikido".

While I'm on my high horse. Who gave anybody the right to look down on anybody with pitty? I might be wrong but Aikidoka don't look so humble elevated so high above all the mere mortals who choose not to take up Aikido.

I'm done now, have a nice day :D

[Virtuous]

While I'm on my high horse. Who gave anybody the right to look down on anybody with pitty? I might be wrong but Aikidoka don't look so humble elevated so high above all the mere mortals who choose not to take up Aikido.


Aikiwolfie I am assuming you are talking to me. Maybe our definitions of pity differ.

Dictionary.com
pity-
Sympathy and sorrow aroused by the misfortune or suffering of another.
A matter of regret: It's a pity she can't attend the reception.

v. pit·ied, pit·y·ing, pit·ies
v. tr.
To feel pity for.

v. intr.
To feel pity.

Idiom:
have/take pity on
To show compassion for.


My understanding is compassion and sympathy are the major elements of aikido. Aikidoka do look mighty elevated on a high horse though, dont they?

[Edit]
all the mere mortals who choose not to take up Aikido.
That is clearly not what I said...... only those people who criticize it, especially those with little to no training.

[markyg]

I thought the hakama was to hide ur feet when doing manouveres? At least that`s what I understood it to be. Presumably to keep ur intentions hidden until the last possible moment?

Anyone got any more thoughts on this?

Cheers as per

Marky

[Virtuous]

hakama thread (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=788&highlight=hakama)

[Budd]

1. Some that criticize aikido are trying to improve the efficacy of a practice that, for some, has lost a great deal of martial integrity replaced it with neo-zen meditative faux-tranquility searching.

2. The hakama was traditionally a part of the everyday attire for a certain class of person. That is all.

[aikisan]

gravity...
i'm 3 yrs or 4 in aikido and many of us do what i did because even sensie already wears his uniform when he get out his car,(that uniform all black up and down w/out a belt or hakama,i dont know that or seen anyone wears that in demos i saw).

i very much agree to aikiwolfie...
"As for the wearing of a gi to and from the Dojo, it's a matter of etiquette. The rules are also different for every Dojo. Some teachers don't like it while others couldn't careless. It has nothing to do with the "true essences of Aikido"."

[aikiwolfie]

Aikiwolfie I am assuming you are talking to me. Maybe our definitions of pity differ.



My understanding is compassion and sympathy are the major elements of aikido. Aikidoka do look mighty elevated on a high horse though, dont they?

[Edit]

That is clearly not what I said...... only those people who criticize it, especially those with little to no training.
The point being nobody here either asked for or requires your pity be it sympathy or snobery.

[Virtuous]

Ok aikiwolfie... It is something I feel not something I give or offer. Let me rephrase. When I see some one who tries aikido for a very short period of time and give up and criticize the hell out of it, It saddens me. Because I feel a sense of regret that they are missing out on a whole lot of good things. How that can be confused with snobery is bewildering. Tell me you have never felt the same emotions? Im sure you have, you just call it something different.

[aikiMac]

i very much agree to aikiwolfie...
"As for the wearing of a gi to and from the Dojo, it's a matter of etiquette. The rules are also different for every Dojo. Some teachers don't like it while others couldn't care less. It has nothing to do with the "true essences of Aikido"."

Ditto.

[Arphod]

"If you can punch someone, you can grab someone, necessarily. If he can reach you, then you can reach him, necessarily."

Um. Really tall people have a greater reach than shorter people, so I fear I must take issue with your use of the word, "necessarily."

[Arphod]

see i tok 13 14 styles and ninpo and aikido was one of them ninpo is more intense the problem with people and aikido is they cant understand the true meaning i hear alot of people complain about aikido what it is aikido so soft but in real life situation when you use it all of a sudden the guys on the ground hurting and real fast and noone knows what the hell happened to him your just a white belt get thru the aiki tiaso and mowe on you'll start to come around ill tell you one thing the throws aint soft

good luck

For Pete's sweet sake, could you use puncuation, please? PLEASE?

[aikiMac]

"If you can punch someone, you can grab someone, necessarily. If he can reach you, then you can reach him, necessarily."

Um. Really tall people have a greater reach than shorter people, so I fear I must take issue with your use of the word, "necessarily."

Perhaps it's a difference in paradigm. See, when I think of a punch, I think "fist contacted other person's body." It's touching. Body-to-body contact. We have contact.

If I'm the puncher, and I actually punched you, then by definition I touched you forcefully. I touched you. And if I touched you, then certainly I could have grabbed some part of you, even if only your shirt.

And on the receiving end, if he punched me, then he touched me. And to do that, he stuck his arm out. He stuck his arm out really, really close to me. It was so close, in fact, that he touched me. But that means that his arm and hand were in a place where I could have touched him back. In fact, I was so close to his arm and hand that I could have grabbed him. That's what a punch means.

But that's just my way of thinking about it, and I don't expect to be correct on everything that I think about.

[aikiwolfie]

Ok aikiwolfie... It is something I feel not something I give or offer. Let me rephrase. When I see some one who tries aikido for a very short period of time and give up and criticize the hell out of it, It saddens me. Because I feel a sense of regret that they are missing out on a whole lot of good things. How that can be confused with snobery is bewildering. Tell me you have never felt the same emotions? Im sure you have, you just call it something different.
How can it be confused for anything else? Because that's not what you orginally posted.

No I've never felt sorry for anybody who leaves Aikido for whatever reason they have. Everybody forms their own opinions which they are entitled to. They are leaving a martial arts club, not cutting off an arm. My pitty, sympathy or even empathy is not required.

To be honest I find such statments to be very patronising. What I or you or anybody else considers to be good is totaly different from what other people consider to be good.

[Sonshu]

"Ninpo or Ninjutsu is the art Aikido is mostly dervived from."

Oh. Hmm. Ninjutsu. I've read books and books and more books about aikido, but I never read that aikido derived from ninjutsu. Hmm. Everyone who writes aikido books says that aikido came primarily from aiki-jujitsu and Japanese fencing. Whatever. Doesn't matter.

I'd like to watch that fight with the Shaolin monk. That'd be pretty cool.

There is no direct association but many moves are the same. Also I tried Aikido for a longer period and reached the same decision that it was not a fighting style but an art form.

It helped my locks though as some of the footwork can be used for balance breaking in fighting.

[Tomiki Ryu]

"Also I tried Aikido for a longer period and reached the same decision that it was not a fighting style but an art form."



I have to disagree. Maybe because I take Tomiki Aikido, which is different from more traditional styles as it has alot of emphasis on atemi strikes and randori (free fighting). The randori in Tomiki style Aikido is 100% ad lib.

That being said, Aikido is not a fighting style, but a non-fighting style. It's a very viable form of self defense in my opinion, it just takes longer study to be able to put it into practice than other MA's. If you have someone who has mastered Aikido to the point of being able to 'become one with the universe' I don't think there is a single stronger all around MA. But Aikido like every other MA has it's short commings which are best supplemented by cross training in other styles.

[Sonshu]

I am sure there are doubtless Aikido people in the world that could kick my ass but its no where near a well rounded art.

There is no kicking in it or ground work which are two fundamental parts which are needed.

Its a goof Martial Art but the emphasis being art. Now Tommi Aikido is different but still no where near a rounded art. To me when I did Aikido it was just a less physical form of Jujitsu. The locks hurt no doubt but it was not the full package or even up there with the best.

Just my view though - fun but not enough for me.

[mike-IHF]

reply,

Sorry for interupting the conversation, but I saw something that should be addressed. TO Knife Fighter: Aikido is not derived from ninjutsu at all. Ueishiba studied under Takeda Sokaku and learned Aiki ju jutsu. The techniques in Aiki ju jutsu, and Aikido are almost exactly the same, with a different philosophy ofcourse, but no less it has nothing to do with Ninjutsu. If you read the history of Ueishiba's training at no point does it state that he had any high levels of training in Ninjutsu. Infact most of his training before he studied with Takeda Sokaku were in the sword arts. He was a swordsman first and formost. Just a thaught. "namaste"

[Tomiki Ryu]

I don't think there is a 'well rounded' MA, is there? No MA encompasses everything a good fighter should know. Which is why I stated that a serious student often trains in 2-3 fighting styles to try and make up for short commings. You need to be able to strike, if nothing else than to set up for a lock or a throw. You also MUST know ground work in order to be a well rounded fighter. Some styles may touch on all these things but I don't know of any single style that gives a full well rounded package on them all.


Karate = weak
Ju-jitsu = weak
Judo = weak

Karate + Ju-jitsu + Judo = badass



Thats the way I see it anyway.

[aikiwolfie]

I was just reading through some of the posts that say Aikido is not a well rounded martial art. I would have to dissagree with this. The full Aikido tool box includes the following and probably somethings I've forgotten.


Body movement.
Foot work.
Joint manipulation, both large and small.
Throws and projections.
Immobalisations.
Ground work in the form of suwari waza (kneeling techniques).
Ukemi for escaping danger safely.
Contray to popular beleif Aikido does have strikes such as atemi and empi and it is ok to hit people if you need to. There are even kicks.


Weapons work attacking with the jo, tanto and bokken.
Weapons work defending with the jo, tanto and bokken.
Weapons work unarmed defending against the jo, tanto and bokken.
Defending against multiple attackers.
Randori, (free practice).


Mental dicapline and awareness. Aikido teaches people to be patient, calm and decisive.
Etiquette. Aikido as a traditional art strongly emphasises respect and good manners at every level of training. Something many modern arts have forgotten about completely.
Kiatsu. Some styles also teach kiatsu to aid healing of injuries picked up during practice or even from everyday wear and tear.


Granted not every teacher teaches everything listed there. However that doesn't mean the art it's self is limited. It only means the teachers teaching is limited. Or the teacher may teach everything in the above list but the students exposure to the art is limited. You will not be taught everything in the above list in the space of 6 months or a year or even 3 years (including full time students).

Does any of this make Aikido a fighting art? No is the short answer. The phylosophy behind Aikido and the way it is taught doesn't suit the needs of somebody who needs to train for a fight within 6 months to a year. Especially if you have never done any Aikido training before.

In fact as I finished that last paragraph it occured to me that I don't know of any martial art or fighting system that pushes anybody into an amature or professional fight after only a short periode of training such as 6 months or a year. Every fighter regardless of style that I have heard of has years and years of experience behind them.

One last thing on how well rounded Aikido actually is. Aikido is not a closed system. You can take almost anything from any other martial art and incorparate it into your Aikido training.

[gofaster]

hi aikiwolfie,
u r right ... aikido is not a street fighting and not 4 every-one ... it is an art ... and it is a serious, very serious and complex martial art ... it is not an easy ... because .... it's so complex and covers so much ... you can make it very deadly (but you don't want to) .....it takes much, much more time to grade (no many people like it) ... and u need a lot of luck to find a real aikido teacher ... and ... after u have got all the above ... and many years of hard training (including mental/spiritual and no-mind) ...u will say .... I have so much to learn ... but others will say ... I'm honored to train and learn in his dojo ....
then you know that they know a bit about aikido ........

[aikinoob]

go faster,

post at >8 year old reading level please.

aikiwolfie,

suwari waza is not a viable form of ground fighting.

[Tomiki Ryu]

"suwari waza is not a viable form of ground fighting."



Agreed.

[aikiwolfie]

suwari waza is not a viable form of ground fighting.
Hmm well I said ground work and not ground fighting because it's not fighting. I'm sure I also said Aikido isn't a fighting art.

However now the point has been raised, I'm curiouse about how other people would define ground work and ground fighting?

[God]

Hmm well I said ground work and not ground fighting because it's not fighting. I'm sure I also said Aikido isn't a fighting art.

However now the point has been raised, I'm curiouse about how other people would define ground work and ground fighting?

well for one thing, ground work is an idiomatic english expression having nothing to do, necessarily, with ground fighting.

[aikiwolfie]

well for one thing, ground work is an idiomatic english expression having nothing to do, necessarily, with ground fighting.
Didn't I already address that point God?

[God]

Didn't I already address that point God?

the way you word the new question makes it sound like you're AGAIN trying to compare the two...

[Jame$]

I trained in Aikido for about 7 months and found it to be very effective. Although I now train in muay thai I would still incorporate some of the submission holds and evasive actions of aikido in a street situation.
I once had someone run at me to try and restrain me..I simply slid past him and then had a perfect position to counter had it been a more serious threat. Although I only had a basic knowledge of the art I had still taken on board some of the important principles.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that although I personally prefer kickboxing, Aikido comes a close second and most definately comes in handy in any street attack. The only key is PERSEVERANCE. This will bring the desired awareness to avoid damage in the concrete jungle.

[aikiwolfie]

the way you word the new question makes it sound like you're AGAIN trying to compare the two...Ground work and ground fighting are not necessarily the same thing. We seem to be in agreement on this God. So what exactly is your point? Do you even have one to make?

The wording of my last post was fairly clear. I asked for a definition of ground work and a definition of ground fighting. As any body should be able to see I am clearly drawing a distinction between the two.

I have drawn this distinction because although ground fighting could easily be considered ground work, not all ground work is ground fighting. In a martial art such as Aikido this is an important distinction to make since it is preferable not to be drawn into a wrestling match, even when knocked to the ground.

Just one other thing. Where is the sin in drawing comparisons?

BTW nice post Jame$. It's good to see some positive input. :)

[aikiscotsman]

I think it would be fair to say that ground work is the bigger element, as it can contain everything posssible on ground situations including ground fighting and taking to the ground, were as simply ground fighting could be seen as a single element of ground work(as big as ground fighting is)

[aikinoob]

i really don't see how the two terms can be separated and discussed in a vaccuum. ground fighting is pretty self-explanatory, ground work is either ground fighting or it has no real meaning. i have always thought the two terms were interchangeable.

[Freeform]

I see what aikiscotsman means, that ground work could incorparate drills and exercises which aren't really 'fighting'.

Fighting on the ground is 'ground fighting'.

Everything on the ground is 'ground work'.

Is that what you meant? :)

[aikinoob]

I see what aikiscotsman means, that ground work could incorparate drills and exercises which aren't really 'fighting'.

Fighting on the ground is 'ground fighting'.

Everything on the ground is 'ground work'.

Is that what you meant? :)


What's the point of the drills/ exercises?

I consider shrimping drills and bridging to be a component of ground fighting. Calling them ground work doesn't change the point of the exercise.

[Freeform]

Suwari Waza is ground work but isn't really related to 'modern' ground fighting. Although some of the elements I learned in suwari waza I have used when rolling. I wouldn't call suwari waza 'ground fighting'.

Col

[aikinoob]

suwari waza is ground fighting, just not very good.

i don't really understand the distinction that is being made here. groundwork implies some sort of drilling/ whatever to make you competent in something that you may or may not need to use to fight/ defend. how is that different than ground fighting? varying degrees of effectiveness doesn't seem to warrant a completely different label.

[aikiwolfie]

Like aikiscotsman said ground work is the larger element. I would personaly class the grappling and wrestling done at ground level as ground fighting. An activity of course of action that reqires physical strength where you move against your attacker in direct conflict.

If we take something like suwari waza, it is still ground work because it's performed at a lower level than standing. At least from an Aikido point of view suwari waza still isn't fighting. Even though we're on our knees we can still blend and redirect an attack. In short, with suwari waza we can still do almost everything on our knees as we can standing. If Aikido isn't fighting then suwari waza isn't ground fighting.

So why give it a different lable? Because it's not just about fighting. Most people find sitting seiza extreamly difficult, at least to begin with, without having to actually walk around on their knees and then deal with attackers as well.

Suwari waza also provides an opertunity to take evasive action and get back on your feet. Ground work doesn't have to involve dealing with an attack head on.

[aikinoob]

neither does ground fighting.

according to the distinction being made, ground work is the umbrella term for ground fighting and some other yet to be specified drilling which may include suwari waza.

i still maintain that the divider line being used here is arbitrary and is trying to force a divide where one does not exist. what else besides suwari waza would people here consider to be ground work that is completely different from ground fighting?

or is the distinction being made that ground work is the training methodology for ground fighting?

[Albert]

I have heard that akido beyond the basics, is to complicated for much use in a street fight, but as far as TKD, its only because your not skilled enough in the art to make you street effective with it, but i guess that could also go for akido.

[aikinoob]

I have heard that akido beyond the basics, is to complicated for much use in a street fight, but as far as TKD, its only because your not skilled enough in the art to make you street effective with it, but i guess that could also go for akido.


you've heard wrong on both topics. but thanks for playing.

also, i don't follow the correlation that you are making other than i agree that if you don't train enough you won't be helped by any martial art.

[God]

Ground work and ground fighting are not necessarily the same thing. We seem to be in agreement on this God. So what exactly is your point? Do you even have one to make?

The wording of my last post was fairly clear. I asked for a definition of ground work and a definition of ground fighting. As any body should be able to see I am clearly drawing a distinction between the two.

I have drawn this distinction because although ground fighting could easily be considered ground work, not all ground work is ground fighting. In a martial art such as Aikido this is an important distinction to make since it is preferable not to be drawn into a wrestling match, even when knocked to the ground.

Just one other thing. Where is the sin in drawing comparisons?

BTW nice post Jame$. It's good to see some positive input. :)

you seem to have not read even the miniscule amount of post i've made in this thread. it's not that hard. just read. and use your brain. i forgot that implications don't exist if you're confronted about them.

[aikiwolfie]

you seem to have not read even the miniscule amount of post i've made in this thread. it's not that hard. just read. and use your brain. i forgot that implications don't exist if you're confronted about them.
Hmm well since my brain is clearly incapable of keeping up with yours perhaps you could post something just a little bit more useful. What impilications are you talking about exactly?


I have heard that akido beyond the basics, is to complicated for much use in a street fight, but as far as TKD, its only because your not skilled enough in the art to make you street effective with it, but i guess that could also go for akido.
Aikido beyond it's basics is usless only when the student is too inexperienced to take advantage of higher techniques. However in the hands of an experienced student, the student should find that many higher techniques are actually more practical on the street than the basics are.


neither does ground fighting.
Neither does ground fighting what? Involve dealing with an attack head on? Ok that's a fair comment worth discussing so perhaps you could elaborate a little more please?


according to the distinction being made, ground work is the umbrella term for ground fighting and some other yet to be specified drilling which may include suwari waza.
Wrong. It was clearly stated that ground work is the larger element which includes sub elements like ground fighting and suwari waza. Ground work is everything you do on the ground or at a level lower than standing. This could include a ukemi from seiza, learning to move, learning to get back on your feet, weapons techniques or anything you care to think of that you can do on the ground.

Obviousley I'm talking from an Aikido perspective because that is what I'm most familiar with.


i still maintain that the divider line being used here is arbitrary and is trying to force a divide where one does not exist.
The point of the distinction is simpley that many people here, including my self, have said Aikido is not a fighting art and doesn't involve fighting your opponent. Instead we blend with an attack and redirect it's energy away from us.

If this is true then there must be more to ground work than fighting since Aikido can be done at the ground level. In other words, we don't have to be standing to do Aikido.

Perhaps this distinction doesn't exist for other arts that are geared towards fighting, however for an art like Aikido I think it's a fair distinction to make.

[aikinoob]

Aikido beyond it's basics is usless only when the student is too inexperienced to take advantage of higher techniques. However in the hands of an experienced student, the student should find that many higher techniques are actually more practical on the street than the basics are.

:rolleyes:


Neither does ground fighting what? Involve dealing with an attack head on? Ok that's a fair comment worth discussing so perhaps you could elaborate a little more please?

You imply that aikido has a monopoly on subtle movements and avoidance. This is wrong. No art that I know of teaches to take attacks "head-on". BJJ practitioners are known to roll with their eyes closed to increase their body awareness and "feeling" of their opponents movements. Wrestlers move and circle relentlessly looking to test and exploit a movement of weakness through leverage and position; the same could be said of judo. Implying that they simply run one another over is wrong and shows ignorance.


Wrong. It was clearly stated that ground work is the larger element which includes sub elements like ground fighting and suwari waza. Ground work is everything you do on the ground or at a level lower than standing. This could include a ukemi from seiza, learning to move, learning to get back on your feet, weapons techniques or anything you care to think of that you can do on the ground.

Actually, by referring to groundwork as the "umbrella term" I was agreeing with you. Umbrella term means that it covers everything. My point is that you have admitted to overlap between the two terms but have, as of yet, failed to demonstrate a concrete difference between groundwork and ground fighting. So far all I have seen is, "suwari waza is not ground fighting because it's not fighting".


The point of the distinction is simpley that many people here, including my self, have said Aikido is not a fighting art and doesn't involve fighting your opponent. Instead we blend with an attack and redirect it's energy away from us.

This is the same crap that keeps me coming to the internet. If you don't want aikido to be in some way related to fighting then you shouldn't strap on your gi and head to the dojo. Blending and redirecting is just a different way of fighting. Personally, I feel a lot of this not about fighting crap is just a way to create a niche in the market through a strategy of differntiation as well as way to mask out-dated training ideas and methodologies.


If this is true then there must be more to ground work than fighting since Aikido can be done at the ground level. In other words, we don't have to be standing to do Aikido.

This post pretty much sums up why I don't think you can argue the difference between groundfighting and groundwork.

here's what you are saying:

1. aikido =/ fighting
2. ground fighting = fighting
3. aikido cannot be groundfighting
4. aikido must be something else

I think its ridiculous to base your whole argument by saying that there should be a separate category for aikido. Kokyu-dosa is in fact very similar to what many bjj schools use as a warm up and training device; the main difference being in how it is used and the greater list of techniques available. The only real distinction I can see is a supposed philosophical one. For reasons of practicality groundwork and ground fighting are essentially the same. Remember Karate Kid, paint the fence etc., that was fighting he just didn't know it. Show me a drill or exercise that truly has nothing to do with fighting and we can begin to make a real distinction between the two terms.

[aikiwolfie]

aikinoob it's clear your only intention here is to provoce some sort of negative reaction with insults. Please post at a post play ground level.

[aikinoob]

if you feel i'm insulting you, then report me to a moderator.

[sean]

Sure - you're passing judgement on the effectiveness of an art after training it for a MONTH?

Bwaaaaaaahaaaaaahaaaahaahahaaaaa...

How many "Standard street fights" have you tried out your Aikido in during the last month?

I was going to say the same thing, but even after 1 month of training with 2 lessons a week in TKD, i can defend myself alot better than before i began, maybe it was just the teacher? my teacher is only a 1st Dan but he drives us hard and keeps the traditions going in the art which is what i was looking for. I should be starting Aikido soon aswell, as iv heard its great because of the low energy used upon excecuting the moves. ah well.


-Sean

[Fitz]

Aikido in some sense, is ineffective in some street fights. It depends if ur opponent is unskilled or skilled. Those Steven Seagal movies over-exaggerate street fights using aikido. Not everyone is going to run at u at full speed ahead like in those movies. Maybe the unskilled will rush at u, but not the skilled. I sparred with an aikidoka once and he didn't really touch me. I knew aikido was a very defensive style so i tricked the guy by drawing his hand out. Basically, i threw my right hand out so i could get an attachment and he tried to do a grappling move on me but i used a jao sau(running hand) with the hand i stuck out to trap with my left hand and hit him at the sametime to stop him. In a way, aikido is effective. In another, it's not. I guess it's effective if ur retreating and the guy just keeps chasing u. After all, aikido is about not trying to fight until u have to. So if all else fails, do what i do. Run. Yea u run ur arse off.

-Fitz

[HK Pedestrian]

I've trained and sparred with 3 Aikidoka in my T'ai Chi Ch'uan classes.

One of them, the highest ranked of the lot, no less, was almost useless martially. This person had very little, and obviously used the training safety restrictions of their art to their adantage in order to advance in rank throughout their career. Once they were working with someone used to different rules, they couldn't cope.

The other 2 are a different story. Both are competent martial artists and capable of defending themselves on the street if necessary. IMO, they were talented enough to think beyond the "rules" of their earlier training to be able to synthesize effective application scenarios with uncooperative attackers. This is also true of their T'ai Chi training with me (which they switched to for health reasons) and my work with them has given me a lot of respect for Aikido as a martial art.

So, from that I'd say that you can't really judge an art by its rules or training, but by its talented practitioners. The potential of an art has to be made real by people, not technique manuals.

-HKP

[aikiscotsman]

All martial arts are effective at times and not at other times. THERE IS NOBODY AROUND WHOS ART IS GARANTEED AGAINST ALL FORMS OF ATTACK NO BLOODY WAY. ive seen Aikido schools that practice more like an dance or keep fit, rather than 100% budo and martial attitude all the time. Believe me there are proper schools out there that are hard as a coffin nail. It dose not mean anything about style. im sure there are some reall hard folks in the ki society, aikikai, tomiki, yoshinkan, iwama etc just as there are very weak schools. its the same in judo,karate,tkd, hapkido,kungfu,kickboxing etc there will always be more crap than good in life its the way it goes. The best thing you can do is train your art aginst people skilled in other arts. i like to train with good karateka ,judoka,kickboxing,jj so good for your angles. This is what Osensei did

[sean]

. ive seen Aikido schools that practice more like an dance or keep fit, rather than 100% budo and martial attitude all the time. Believe me there are proper schools out there that are hard as a coffin nail. It dose not mean anything about style. im sure there are some reall hard folks in the ki society, aikikai, tomiki, yoshinkan, iwama etc just as there are very weak schools. its the same in judo,karate,tkd, hapkido,kungfu,kickboxing etc there will always be more crap than good in life its the way it goes. The best thing you can do is train your art aginst people skilled in other arts. i like to train with good karateka ,judoka,kickboxing,jj so good for your angles. This is what Osensei did

Well said :p

On a different note:

THERE IS NOBODY AROUND WHOS ART IS GARANTEED AGAINST ALL FORMS OF ATTACK NO BLOODY WAY

What about the art of Atomic Bombs? :confused:

-Sean

[aikiwolfie]

What about the art of Atomic Bombs? :confused:
There's always somebody with a bigger or better bomb :D

[sean]

There's always somebody with a bigger or better bomb :D

Fair point, but in the event of an 'Armageddon' type war using atomic weapons the earth would be destoyed then life as we know it on planet Earth would be no more.... leaving NO ONE to be the best.

*wonders if it makes sense*

-Sean

[aikiwolfie]

Well what about all those nuclear bunkers. Some poor sod's going to survive and have to sweep up the mess just to do it all over again LOL.

[sean]

Well what about all those nuclear bunkers. Some poor sod's going to survive and have to sweep up the mess just to do it all over again LOL.

Sad but true

-Sean

[Jame$]

At the end of the day, each and every martial art is POTENTIALLY effective in a combat situation. How effective it proves to be is all down to the individual. The main thing to remember is that we practice our martial art for confidence, fitness, self motivation, acheivment etc...
If you enjoy your martial art and feel that it has helped you learn, develop or aqquire certain skills which you have found personally useful in your life then that is all that is important. Every martial art, (including aikido) has a deadly potential in a street fight. It just depends on your discipline and work rate.
Just enjoy your art, commit yourself and enjoy...You will notice the benefits.

[aikinoob]

At the end of the day, each and every martial art is POTENTIALLY effective in a combat situation. How effective it proves to be is all down to the individual. The main thing to remember is that we practice our martial art for confidence, fitness, self motivation, acheivment etc...
If you enjoy your martial art and feel that it has helped you learn, develop or aqquire certain skills which you have found personally useful in your life then that is all that is important. Every martial art, (including aikido) has a deadly potential in a street fight. It just depends on your discipline and work rate.
Just enjoy your art, commit yourself and enjoy...You will notice the benefits.



i disagree with much of your post but i understand you viewpoint.

[Freeform]

i disagree with much of your post but i understand you viewpoint.

*GASP*

This is what MAP's all about people, friendly discussion and understanding!

:D

[timmeh!]

*GASP*

This is what MAP's all about people, friendly discussion and understanding!

:D


Akido... the misspelt wail of harmony

[aikinoob]

looks like this thread is dead

[alienlovechild]

What are you guys talking about ... I invented Aikido ... that Ushiba bloke just took all the credit ...

But seriously, someone told me that Ushiba [no doubt spelled incorrectly, and who did in fact invent Aikido] travelled to China, and apparently studied some Pa-Kua, which may have influenced his Aikido. Does anyone else know of this, or is it a load of you know what?

Ushiba is one of my favourite martial arts personages; a true martial arts mystic. If I could invite three historical figures to dinner it would be Ushiba, Yang-Lu Chan [Tai-chi] and Tung Hai Ch'uan [Pa-Kua], though they all might decide to beat the piss out of me for making them travel through time to eat a lamb roast. Who would you invite?

[ladystar]

:Angel: If you'd like to know more of Ueshiba, Alienlovechild, pick up a copy of "The Art of Peace." The first part is his biography...and I simply love the rest!

Jess :o

[Keljian]

I think the topic is something of a mute point.

Is aikido useful in a "real fight" - sure, the agility gained by training and the disabling techniques are good for restraining an opponent.

Is aikido useful to win a "real fight" - no aikido isn't about winning or losing, if you use it for this you're missing the point.

Look at the factions who train in aikido - most of them are police or crowd control - their aim is to control their opponent, not to injure them if possible.

I recall a time when I trained with Thambu sensei (6th dan yoshinkan) following a class, he wanted to push me and test my ukemi, he said to punch any way I felt like. Me having a kickboxing background used very very quick snap jabs, used whenever I saw an opening. Many of these punches connected with his ribs, I was too afraid to hit him in the head. After a while he told me to hold my punches out a bit longer so he could throw me more, which I did, and subsequently got thrown. Then after, he reminded me that we were on the mats to train, not to fight. Which is a fair comment in retrospect - though at the time I was relatively new to the art, so didn't understand the concept as well as I do now.

Now either he was holding back, deliberately running into the punches or he could not simply get out of the way quick enough at that time to dodge them - or alternatively he was trying to teach me a lesson

Do not get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for Sensei and the art of aikido, but at the same time I have to question whether it would be effective in winning a streetfight unadulterated. That said, I implore anyone who says that a technique is ineffective to say respectfully to an instructor "I don't see how this technique could be effective" when they're floating around the mat.

[akira2000]

I personally know a guy that holds black belt in aikido. The guy was in situation, from wich no bjj, nor karateka, nor any other MA practioner was coming out ALIVE (I have witnesses so this story is not a "legend").

This black belt aikidoka was attacked buy THREE well builded guys WITH KNIVES. It took him few seconds to take them all down.

Ok, I agree, that the guy holds black belt in aikido, and this takes at least 6 years to reach. But you cannot say that aikido is a crap. You must know, that advance aikidoka is an invincible machine !!!

[Keljian]

Ok, I agree, that the guy holds black belt in aikido, and this takes at least 6 years to reach. But you cannot say that aikido is a crap. You must know, that advance aikidoka is an invincible machine !!!


There are also stories of Ushiba dodging bullets, but my gut instinct tells me that there are limits, physical limits.

I cannot say, as I was not there.

I don't think there is such a thing as an "invincible machine". Everyone has weaknesses, every style has weaknesses.

[aikiwolfie]

I wouldn't say Aikido was invincible and I've been practicing for eight years. It doesn't matter which martial art you study, there will always be someone who can think of something you haven't.

[kiaiki]

Hi Keljian -
If the Sensei was Joe Thambu of Shudokan then yes, he was probably holding back to protect you, as although your attacks may have been fast and good, you may not at that stage have had the skills to deal with his defence without getting seriously broken. As Shudokan is Yoshinkan based it's teachers are used to hard and fast atemi with both fist and knife. I trained with his father when he visited the UK a few years back (Thamby Rajah, 8th Dan I think, now based in Malaysia) and even at an advanced age, I am sure he could dodge most very fast punches and kicks and deliver a very swift and effective defence. My own Sensei trained under Shioda and Thamby Rajah.

Shudokan students are also drawn from security and door staff with plenty of need for 'real fight' skills. Nothing is infallible, as Aikiwolfie says, but our techniques were tested again and again on the street and proved effective.
However, as my Sensei always said, 'the first 10 years are the worst.... After that, in a knife attack, you might just live.' As to O Sensei dodging bullets - they sure could use him to train everyone else in dodging USA 'friendly fire'!

I quote from the Shudokan (Australia) website about Joe (now 6th Dan):
Since 1983, Sensei Thambu has returned to Japan many times, the most memorable being in 1993, when he was awarded a fifth dan by Soke Gozo Shioda, at the time, the youngest non-Japanese student of Aikido to be awarded that rank. He has also the privilege of being the last student to be tested by Soke Shioda Gozo before his death in 1994.

With that pedigree - you wouldn't get near unless he wanted you to IMHO.