Grandmaster Choi

[Marku]

What are your thoughts of this guy? anyone here taught by any of his students?

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Which Grandmaster Choi would that be? Just out of curiousity.

[darlph]

I agree there are several Choi's. Which one?

[jejanim]

true..a lot of choi's in hap. and each of them have a lot of there student *dan's* teaching in other countries.



jeja

[Marku]

really.....well i mean the founder of Hapkido

[Chris from CT]

Originally posted by Marku
anyone here taught by any of his students?

I am. :) My teacher is Grandmaster Lim (Im), Hyun Soo of Daegu City, South Korea. I am very fortunate to be one of his students. GM Lim is one of only three people to have ever been promoted to 9th dan by Dojunim Choi himself. (the other two being GM Chang, Chin Il and GM Kim, Yun Sang) He is also one of the longest running students of Dojunim Choi, because when Dojunim Choi closed in dojang in 1976 he joined GM Lim and continued to teach out of the Jung Ki Kwan until he died in 1986.

For more info on GM Lim you can check out...

http://lmaa.bravepages.com/gmlim.htm

or

http://jungkikwan.com

I believe there are others here who are students of Dojunim's students.

Take care. :)

[SoKKlab]

Sad thing about GM Choi,
is that regardless of whether he really lived and learned Aiki Ju Jitsu from the Takeda clan in Japan or whether he just took a few seminars etc (As a lot of the Aiki Ju Jitsu people say), he has been treated very badly by certain sections of both the Korean and Japanese Martial Arts fraternity and his name has been Rubbished in certain quarters, which I don't feel is fair to the old fella at all. Cue Blatant plug, there is a pretty good article about Hapkido on www.martialartsadvice.com
As I've been writing about just that recently, amongst other stuff.....

[HKD]

mostley Ji han jae
he has said alot against Choi lately now that he's good and dead.
it's a shame i still see Young Sool Choi as the founder

[SoKKlab]

Good point HKD,
Some of the statements 'accredited' to some of Choi's students are not very nice at all. And a lot of people who should know better have spent far too much time and energy, kicking a dead man. Shame on them.

Regardless of who says what, Choi, Young Sul (Sool) formulated the art that we now know as Hapkido in 1947. (Originally HapKi Yu Sool). I believe that Ji Han Jae either suggested to Choi that they start using the name Hapkido or starting using it himself first around 1952 and then everyone else went along with it. Hey it's alot snappier.

Don't believe any of the nonsense that some Hapkido schools spew out about it, Hapkido, being two thousand years old blahblahblah..It is pure marketing bluster about an art that I like very much, but admittedly only have limited practical experience.

The rest is just history...and hearsay.

[HKD]

i have read in many places ji han jae presented the name to choi and choi strated using it. after this ji han jae felt he should B the #1 student and started demanding young sool choi teach him special techniques and choi said no. that started the split and then jae left and opened aschool and started saying he was the founder of hapkido but only to his students openly he never came out and said this untill choi died.
i have read lots of things ji han jae has been saying over the years he's to full of himself.

HKD

[SoKKlab]

Ah that's the list of events is it?

HKD-Do you know what the main differences are between the different styles of Hapkido, say Sin Moo and some of the others?
How many systems are there, even just say the main ones?

Not Kido though, as that's more like Aikido..

[HKD]

wow there R alot of deferent styles of HKD. only a few R really worth looking at. i have never studied sin moo but i do know ji han jae added som boxing techniques to it when he opened his first school. it was next door to a western boxing gym im not sure how a western boxing school got in korea, but he saw how they were punching and made some changes so that he could defend against these types of punches. HKD was created as a defense against japinese styles so at first the only punch defense was agains the straight punching U didn't C many hooks or haymakrs.
combat HKD has some jkd mixed in but HKD had so much in it to begin with it's hard for me to C how one could make a new style of it. ji han jae added just about the only thing that wasn't already there. to me HKD is the original mixed martial art, stand up fighting, kicking grapling traping. whats left?

HKD

[SoKKlab]

Yeah,
I like Hapkido. I was training in it for a while, I hope to again and that time take it much further. I feel that it's a good all-round Martial Art.

Although I have to say that I didn't like some of the attempts at wrist locks from punches (bit impractical), although i've now got alot more material on the art and some of it has different methodology from what I was learning, even the same techniques but done differently.

Master Choe out of Washington State in USA has done a couple of decent books on Hapkido. I don't know if he rated as a practitioner, but I found his books a useful guide to Hapkido.

Have any of you heard of Master Choe and read any of his books?

[hapkiyoosool]

My instructor trained under GM Choi from 1949 until he died in 1986. I trained under my instructor in Korea until 2000 and brought what I learned to the US. I started my training in 1975. Hmmm, that makes me sound old.

I feel that GM Choi knew what he was doing. Afterall, he left quite a legacy and everyone wants to claim to have trained under him

We just had a big demo at a tournament here in FL, about 1,000 spectators plus participents. It was the first time we ever received a standing ovation. It felt, well, weird. We did our demo after 5 other schools did theirs. From the response, I would say I learned the right things. The Aikido clans there called us barbarians because we hold on when we throw, use pressure points, knock people out, and break things. Oh well,....... don't attack me! ^_^

I can tell you this. There is a BIG difference between traditional hapkido and American gymnastic hapkido. They were there too. I have the whole thing on video and saved to my computer.

SoKKlab said,
<<Although I have to say that I didn't like some of the attempts at wrist locks from punches (bit impractical), although i've now got alot more material on the art and some of it has different methodology from what I was learning, even the same techniques but done differently>>

I will admit, Hapkido techniques are not easy. It takes many years of dedicated training to really understand how they work, and only when they are done correctly.


Chris from CT said,
<<I believe there are others here who are students of Dojunim's students.>>

Here is one! Our lineage is pretty simple. GM Choi taught my instructor, and my instructor taught me. Advantages of growing up in Korea. ^_^

By the way Chris, our seminar is jammed, people came from other states, ect. Where do I put them all? You guys have to get in on it next quarter. Maybe it was all the free food.

[Chris from CT]

Originally posted by hapkiyoosool
By the way Chris, our seminar is jammed, people came from other states, ect. Where do I put them all? You guys have to get in on it next quarter. Maybe it was all the free food.

Have food, will travel. ;) I've have to hit the next one. Sounds like it was a blast!

Take care.

[Van_the_cookie_man]

I heard several instrutors of hkd say that it is very old. Sokklab said that it wasn't. Do we know how old hkd actaully is?

[shadow warrior]

Yu Sool late 1940's ------>Hap Ki Do early 1950's..

As a named style since that time. Various origins of specific skill sets. It was NEVER an intact style decended from monks who trained in the mountains for untold generations..pure myth..
It's just better marketing to say your style is ancient.

Specific techniques have no style owner. Most martial arts techniques are old by nature..Go to hapkido info-net for a detailed version of Hap Ki Do history and other helpfull info..

[Thomas]

Originally posted by shadow warrior
As a named style since that time. Various origins of specific skill sets. It was NEVER an intact style decended from monks who trained in the mountains for untold generations..pure myth..
It's just better marketing to say your style is ancient.


I was taught from some of my instructors that elements (right, not an INTACT style) came from Buddhist monks who lived in the mountains for safety... I have visited many of the sites and they are indeed in the mountains. Monks lived there and used a martial arts system of which many of the techniques are BELIEVED to be preserved in Hapkido. Again, when getting into the History of Hapkido, it is very clouded and not much is very well documented.

In Kwang-Sik Myung's book "Hapkido Special Self Protection Techniques" (Seolim Publishing: 1993, English and Korean), he write of the history of Hapkido and states that "Hapkido was introduced to Korea along with Buddhism. Hapkido techniques were originally known and handed down through the heirarchy of monks, ruling families and royal officials as a means of self protection and personal safety" He goes on in more detail... if you are interested I will post it here. (p. 21)

Check out this article on this site... quite a good general read: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/articles/hapkido1.htm

[hapkiyoosool]

As far as GM Choi goes. He learned from Takeda Sokaku and brought his strain of Hapkido(YooSool is Korean for Jujutsu) to Korea just before the Korean War. When my instructor learned it(from 1949-1986) from GM Choi, they called it hapkiyoosool (korean for Aikijujutsu). Then Hapkido.

I am not so sure about monks and don't really pay attention to that. Religion is in the man, not the art. Koreans don't make it a habit of teaching martial(military) arts and religion together. No one ever joined the military to become a priest. Chaplains are ordained before they offer their service to their country.

<<As a named style since that time. Various origins of specific skill sets. It was NEVER an intact style decended from monks who trained in the mountains for untold generations..pure myth..
It's just better marketing to say your style is ancient. >>
I tend to go with this.
Monks used the art to protect the temple, it was not a part of their religious training.

Growing up in Korea and being(past) a Buddhist, I have talked to many monks. Most of them study hardly anything now, nor are they required to. Only in China does this seem to be practiced and only in certain sects of Buddhism. Monks are supposed to spread peace, I have seen monks set themselves on fire in the streets of Seoul in protest of violence, if that make sense.


Well, I hope we turn this back to GM Choi. He was a great man and like a father to my instructor, a "grandfather" to me.

[Kosh]

Hi i think i have a picture of my teachers dad (Grand Master Kim) and Grand Master Choi.

cool found it

http://www.dur.ac.uk/hapkido.club/menu.htm

This is the website for our durham branch of Duk Moo.

Grand Master Kim taught the military in Korea, there are some pictures....the one in the middle second from the top has GM Choi in it.

...the link doesnt work properly, you have to go to it and click on 'the grand master'.

[doshim]

Hi i think i have a picture of my teachers dad (Grand Master Kim) and Grand Master Choi.

cool found it

http://www.dur.ac.uk/hapkido.club/menu.htm

This is the website for our durham branch of Duk Moo.

Grand Master Kim taught the military in Korea, there are some pictures....the one in the middle second from the top has GM Choi in it.

...the link doesnt work properly, you have to go to it and click on 'the grand master'.

Great Picture! It's a little blurry, but if you look closely you can make out GM Choi in the center. To GM Choi's right is GM Bong Soo Han and to his left is GM Ji Han Jae.

An excellent piece of Hapkido history preserved.

...just noticed when you click to enlarge it gives the names of everyone pictured. Very nice!

[American HKD]

Greeting,

1. I currently train under Ji Han Jae and he's a very humble man one of the most genuine Masters I've ever met and his teaching and explanations are of the highest caliber and as close to the source as possible.

2. Sin Moo HKD means "mental or spiritual" HKD. Doju Ji started teaching Sin Moo in 1983 or 1984. The physical techniques are mostly the same as all practitioners of HKD delineated from Ji.

3. What makes Sin Moo different is Doju Ji's years of development in the Mental and Spiritual side of HKD i.e., Ki breathing techniques, Meditation techniques, Rules for eating, Character development, Rules for living, plus much more.

I feel that Sin Moo is much more than techniques alone, it's a complete Mudo life philosophy.

Hapki,

Stuart Rosenberg
5th Dan Sin Moo HKD

[hapkiyoosool]

Greeting,

1. I currently train under Ji Han Jae and he's a very humble man one of the most genuine Masters I've ever met and his teaching and explanations are of the highest caliber and as close to the source as possible.

2. Sin Moo HKD means "mental or spiritual" HKD. Doju Ji started teaching Sin Moo in 1983 or 1984. The physical techniques are mostly the same as all practitioners of HKD delineated from Ji.

3. What makes Sin Moo different is Doju Ji's years of development in the Mental and Spiritual side of HKD i.e., Ki breathing techniques, Meditation techniques, Rules for eating, Character development, Rules for living, plus much more.

I feel that Sin Moo is much more than techniques alone, it's a complete Mudo life philosophy.

Hapki,

Stuart Rosenberg
5th Dan Sin Moo HKD

1. I feel the same about Grandmaster Chang,Young-Shil. He began his training in 1949 under Dojunim Choi,Young-Sool and continued until 1970 when he opened his own school. I began my training in 1976 and moved to the USA in 2000 to open my own school. Hapkiyoosool (http;//www.hapkiyoosool.com) Which means Aikijujutsu to a Japanese.

2. Spiritual in our school means self. Spirit is who you are. Spirit is moldable when you have good self-control and strong will to change. Mind is what you think and your emotion. You choose to be angry or sad, emotion is controlable. Mind is lead by spirit. Body is where you live and you should take care of your house. Body is controlable and is lead by mind and spirit. This is a way of believing which is called philosophy but, not religion. A religion is worship of a god and its teachings. Sometimes they are confused.

3.The only difference is that GM Chang does not belive that religious beliefs belong in the Miltary(martial) arts due to that no one joins the military to become a priest. However, People have beliefs and the instructor should never push his religious beliefs on his students but if they accept them because of his great example of a peacful and truly honorable life. This is what make instructors different but, not wrong.

[American HKD]

Dear Master Allen

Thank you for your reply.

I didn't mention religion in my post.

Sin Moo HKD is not a religion just incorporates many good rules or better yet advice to TRY to live by. Master Ji does set a good example for this in my opinion.
If one chooses not to follow the philisophy there are no consequences to him regarding promotions etc.

Some of our philisophies are similar to yours.

I will post 9 Sin Moo rules for a Human being.

1. You will receive a body. You will like it or hate it, but it will be yours for the entire period you're around.

2. You will learn lessons. You are enrolled in a full time informal school called life. Each day in this school you will have the opportunity to learn lessons. You may like the lessons or think them irrelevant and stupid.

3. There are no mistakes, only lessons. Growth is a process of trial and error, experimentation. The "failed" experiments are as much a part of the process as the experiments that ultimately "work".

4. A lesson is repeated until learned. A lesson will be presented to you in various forms until you have learned it. When you have learned it, you can go on to the next lesson.

5. Learning lessons does not end. There is no part of life that does not contain its lessons. If you are alive, there are lessons to be learned.

6. "There" is no better then "here". When your "there" has become a "here", you will simply obtain another "there" that will, again, look better than "here".

7. Others are merely mirrors of you. You cannot love or hate something about another person unless it reflects to you something you love or hate about yourself.

8. What you make of your life is up to you. You have all the tools and resources you need. What you do with them is up to you. The choice is yours.

9. Your answers lie inside you. The answers to life's questions lie inside you. All you need to do is look, listen, and trust.

[MacKiDo]

I was taught from some of my instructors that elements (right, not an INTACT style) came from Buddhist monks who lived in the mountains for safety... I have visited many of the sites and they are indeed in the mountains. Monks lived there and used a martial arts system of which many of the techniques are BELIEVED to be preserved in Hapkido. Again, when getting into the History of Hapkido, it is very clouded and not much is very well documented.

In Kwang-Sik Myung's book "Hapkido Special Self Protection Techniques" (Seolim Publishing: 1993, English and Korean), he write of the history of Hapkido and states that "Hapkido was introduced to Korea along with Buddhism. Hapkido techniques were originally known and handed down through the heirarchy of monks, ruling families and royal officials as a means of self protection and personal safety" He goes on in more detail... if you are interested I will post it here. (p. 21)

Check out this article on this site... quite a good general read: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/articles/hapkido1.htm
He may be referring to the elements of Taekkyon kicking that some kwans teach. Those would probably have existed in Korea since at least the Silla era.

[nj_howard]

In Kwang-Sik Myung's book "Hapkido Special Self Protection Techniques" (Seolim Publishing: 1993, English and Korean), he write of the history of Hapkido and states that "Hapkido was introduced to Korea along with Buddhism. Hapkido techniques were originally known and handed down through the heirarchy of monks, ruling families and royal officials as a means of self protection and personal safety" He goes on in more detail...

bearing this in mind, now consider another widely accepted view (in fact, this is probably the consensus view): that the art that evolved into hapkido, and was taught by choi young sool upon his return to korea from japan, derives directly from daito ryu aikijujutsu.

if the latter account is true, it would seem to contradict the above-cited account about the buddhist monks, would it not?

just some food for thought. it's highly unlikely that either account can ever be proved or disproved conclusively.

[Thomas]

Wow... I posted that quite a while ago! My intent was mainly to show that there are a lot of sources for the "history of Hapkido" and that this is what I taught in Korea (and cited a book from Korea that supported the idea... so it wasn't just my master making stuff up.) On other threads the Japanese connection to Hapkido has surfaced often and is a strong source as well. I think if you sort through the truth, nationalism, and political rifts, you will find lots of versions of Hapkido... precluding a "pure Korean style", in my opinion.