Kukan

[Keikai]

Right,

Something serious for a change, some of us have been talking about Kukan recently and this has risen on Kutaki, so what do you think it is? or if you think you know then what do you think of it? how do you use it? Rich and Gary- give someone else a chance before we slip into the beach ball conversation.

[Lord Spooky]

Ok I'll leave the Beach ball thing.....what about Bananas??? :D

Serious now: I wouldn't mind knowing if these sort of concepts are covered in other Bujinkan off-shoot organisations.

[Keikai]

Ok I'll leave the Beach ball thing.....what about Bananas??? :D

Serious now: I wouldn't mind knowing if these sort of concepts are covered in other Bujinkan off-shoot organisations.

Dont worry about other orgs lets just keep to kukan, whatever org your in!! :bang:

[RazorFist]

what exactly is kukan? Im sort of a noob myself so i really have trouble with the terms you more experienced persons use.

[Dale Seago]

what exactly is kukan? Im sort of a noob myself so i really have trouble with the terms you more experienced persons use.

It's generally translated as "space", but there appear to be a lot of very subtle martially relevant nuances in Hatsumi sensei's use of the term.

I view it, at the most basic level, as "The totality, in all dimensions, of all aspects of the interactive space between combatants". (You could also expand this to include the "immediately influential" space around them as well.) You also have to consider it in terms of the 4th dimension, Time, because in an encounter the "shape of the space" is not a static thing -- so I consider "using kukan" as "manipulating the shape of space through time".

Familiar with Chinese Feng shui (or in Japanese, Fusui)? It's complex -- take a look at these available online definitions: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+feng+shui&btnG=Google+Search

It has to do both with "elemental energies", and also with positional arrangements and shapes which allow the focusing and/or harmonising of energies for a desired outcome. The last time Gyokko ryu (which originally was a Chinese temple art) was a major focus in Sensei's teaching (2001), he was presenting everything at a very high level and expressing what he was doing and teaching in terms of "tactical Feng shui". . .in fact, the video from Quest (http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10991) from that year's Daikomyosai training in Japan is titled "Budo no Fusui".

That may help a bit. . .

You may also find this useful: When I wrote the FAQ section for my website (http://www.bujinkansf.org) a few years ago, I included the following:

Q: What really distinguishes Bujinkan budo from other martial arts?
A: One thing is that as a comprehensive or “total” life-protection system, it does not “specialize” in particular kinds of applications as many arts do. That is, it does not “emphasize” primarily grappling and throwing as in judo; striking and kicking as in karate; or any particular weapon as in kendo. Everything is used freely, including unconventional weapons; unconventional applications of common weapons; and concealed weapons. This is one aspect of the Bujinkan’s happo bikenjutsu or “secret sword” methods.

Much more significant, however, is the fact that the physical training is approached via a completely different conceptual paradigm from that of other martial arts. In other systems the focus is on learning particular techniques and applying them against an opponent. In Bujinkan budo as Hatsumi sensei is teaching it, there is a very different way of viewing one’s relationship with the opponent. Just as in a Japanese Zen garden the shapes of the spaces between objects are every bit as important as the nature and positions of the objects themselves in the overall composition, so in our martial art perceiving and controlling the shape of the space between yourself and the opponent is critical to mastery.

One way of thinking about this is that if you try to deal with an opponent’s weapon (fist, knife, gun, etc.) the person himself may still kill you. It is more effective to try to control the opponent himself, because then you control the weapon also; but in that case you still will have a fight on your hands and the outcome is still in doubt. If you control the space your opponent wishes to use, however, he is totally neutralized and all his efforts are ineffective. Senior U.S. Bujinkan instructor and former Marine officer Jack Hoban, has expressed this idea eloquently in military terms: Your unit can try to outshoot an enemy force, but it can be a grueling ordeal with heavy casualties on both sides. . .and you may be defeated. But if you control the terrain around the enemy so that you can reach him easily, while he cannot fire on you and cannot maneuver without exposing himself to your own fire, his defeat is inevitable. . .and you may save lives on the “enemy” side as well as your own. Whether the opponent lives or dies thus becomes, in a very profound sense, his own decision.

Another way of expressing the concept is that where other arts tend to operate from left-brain hemisphere processes (linear, logical, focused on performance of technique), Bujinkan budo draws more on right-brain hemisphere intuition and perception of shape, pattern, and the total context of the situation.

Since I'm former military myself, I find I relate well to Jack's analogy of kukan as being equivalent to the "key terrain" that must be controlled in order for either opposing force to be able to win the battle.

[specourt]

In order to develop this awareness/understanding/feeling, is it just a case of training for long enough, or are there particular physical/mental exercises that help promote it's development?

[xen]

*xenmaster falls from the chair in shock as it appears someone has decided to use the forum for a discussion beyond the level of 'pants' and 'where can i train'

his usual free-flowing linguistic style is stymied by disbelief and he leaves his computer in a confused daze....*

[E.E.N.S.]

Dale, I like the way you worded that. I find that a lot of times it can be difficult to explain concepts without being live and in person - but I thought you said it very clear and easy to understand...good job! I have been saying this for a long time now, but it doesn't always sound so concise as you just simply put it (of course I may be trying to explain too many things at once.) Great!

[Dale Seago]

In order to develop this awareness/understanding/feeling, is it just a case of training for long enough, or are there particular physical/mental exercises that help promote it's development?

My friend Ben Cole in Michigan feels he has developed a conceptual model which enables students to visualize and use it, but so far he only seems to have been able to "get it across" to anyone in the context of hands-on work.

For my part, it's something I always address and point out even when working on things like the kihon happo, so my own students have to deal with it from the very beginning of their training.

I do feel that this is something that can't be really understood through verbal discourse -- that is, you can't read or talk about it and immediately understand it in a way that will allow you to use it. It requires movement, feeling, and physical experimentation as well.

[xen]

dale,

the comments about 'shape, pattern and total context...' are a very good way of expressing things...

a question;

isn't the long-term aim to unify the process' of the left and right hemispheres? i ask because the impression given by the quote from your site implies that one set of mental process' is more favourable than the other, yet (IMHO) to favour one aspect of ones nature over another is to restrict the options one has available and does not lead to full development of ones potential.

[kouryuu]

The way i like to think of it is this; timing, distance and balance=kukan, if you`re missing any one of the three from the equation then you don`t have Kukan!.
This is MY perception so i could be totally wrong, it`s a great thread for discussion though.

[Dale Seago]

a question;

isn't the long-term aim to unify the process' of the left and right hemispheres? i ask because the impression given by the quote from your site implies that one set of mental process' is more favourable than the other, yet (IMHO) to favour one aspect of ones nature over another is to restrict the options one has available and does not lead to full development of ones potential.

Ooh, good one!!!

Yes, you're right for the most part.

But we Westerners, in general, overuse the left hemisphere and neglect the right; so what (in my opinion) we first need to do is overemphasize what we lack in order to develop it to an equal level.

It requires a shift in perspective and focus that's a bit like what happens when you examine some of M. C. Escher's art works, like this:


http://www.escher.info/images/ILLUSION.jpg

[kouryuu]

Thanks for the picture Dale, i`ve now got to put my beer down!!!!!

[Dale Seago]

I know, a bit queasy-making. . .We need a "barf" smiley. :D

[sshh]

Greg Chapman: "Right, Something serious for a change, . . . "

Something serious? Seriously? And it was your idea?

:eek:

- xenmaster *xenmaster falls from the chair in shock as it appears someone has decided to use the forum for a discussion beyond the level of 'pants' and 'where can i train'

his usual free-flowing linguistic style is stymied by disbelief and he leaves his computer in a confused daze....* -

You're not the only one!


Ok, now that my daze has worn off:

I don't think that's actually an Escher painting, but instead an 'Escher-inspired' painting.

Anyhoo . . .

Once again, Dale-sensei, your experience is much appreciated!

Dale Seago: "It's generally translated as "space", but there appear to be a lot of very subtle martially relevant nuances in Hatsumi sensei's use of the term."

Whenever I hear the term, I think "space" too.

However (and I think I saw this translation somewhere else too), in Monday's class, we were playing with staff, sword, knife, and Gyokko Ryu kata. During some hands-on work with my shidoshi (i.e. getting the crap kicked out of me), a particular movement within the technique was described as "taking up the slack between us."

RE:

"tactical Feng shui". . . Just as in a Japanese Zen garden the shapes of the spaces between objects are every bit as important as the nature and positions of the objects themselves in the overall composition, . . . "

"Overall Composition" I think is a good way of thinking about it. Trying to see the space helps to ameliorate tunnel-vision.

"Senior U.S. Bujinkan instructor and former Marine officer Jack Hoban, has expressed this idea eloquently in military terms: . . ."

Yes, the last seminar of his I attended included many 'terrain-features' metaphors. It was really so simple the way he explained it, but the way it was applied to taijutsu was brilliant.

". . . Jack's analogy of kukan as being equivalent to the "key terrain" that must be controlled in order for either opposing force to be able to win the battle."

Another good way to think about it!


specourt: "In order to develop this awareness/understanding/feeling, is it just a case of training for long enough, or are there particular physical/mental exercises that help promote it's development?"

I think it's a bit of both, but then I feel as if I'm 'on the inside looking in' - like trying to see inside your own house through a window while sitting inside the house - pretty Escher-esque, huh?

[Keikai]

In order to develop this awareness/understanding/feeling, is it just a case of training for long enough, or are there particular physical/mental exercises that help promote it's development?

I dont think it would appear through any other way, understanding the kukan is rightly as Norm says through time, distance and balance giving you the "space" as Dale rightly puts it, i put this down as slack, the amount of slack you give yourself in a technique so to speak!

For me at a shodan level this is my level of understanding but i think people like Dale and Norm can offer a higher understanding but for me at my level i think my level is enough for the time being, thinking ahead causes confusion!

To my is that by correctly understanding the intent of your opponent, you can place yourself in the correct position and therefore, gain yourself the time to reassess the scenario and ensure yourself a successful outcome. This goes hand in hand with reducing your opponent to zero.

[althaur]

Dale is really great about teaching this concept. I tend to think about it in a military manner also. I want to take key terrain the the enemy needs to mount an effective attack, while leaving "openings" for him to exploit my percieved weaknesses. This all has to be done in a manner that hides my true intention and makes the badguy think he is smarter than me. The timing comes into play in how I suck in and then counter the opponents actions either before, during or after they start. This 3 different times have differing psychological impacts on the enemy.

Anyhoo, I'm still learning this crap too. I'm sure Dale or Norm can verbally smack me upside the head with problems in my analogy. Besides, getting smacked by folks like them is how you learn. :)

Josh

[kouryuu]

Anyhoo, I'm still learning this crap too. I'm sure Dale or Norm can verbally smack me upside the head with problems in my analogy. Besides, getting smacked by folks like them is how you learn. :)

Josh

Verbally?, nah, i normally do it with a rubber glove and a rabbit! :eek:

[Kris x]

I don't understand this too much, but Greg asked me to join in(so he could take the mick out my lack of knowledge I believe:eek: :woo: )


Kukan is timing, distance and balance.

In taijutsu correct timing, distance and balance is very important.

Kukan is used to wrap your opponent up in space leaving him with nothing to work with and leaving you the opportunity to apply a technique or run.

:Angel:


Btw, that pictures scary.:eek:

[xen]

But we Westerners, in general, overuse the left hemisphere and neglect the right; so what (in my opinion) we first need to do is overemphasize what we lack in order to develop it to an equal level.



that makes sense.

you also mentioned intuition, which is an interesting one and ties in with question about if this "expanded" awareness is developed through training or through specific exercise.

As I understand intuition, it is primarily the means for the mind to make a correct assumption and subsequently a correct decision, leading to an approriate action, without the usual analytical process' of the conscious mind being engaged.

In essence it seems to be a sub-conscious process which provides the conscious mind with information, but the conscious mind is not altogether clear how it came to hold such information.

I work from the premise that the intuitional feelings are borne of experience. As we progress through life, we accumulate experience. Our sub-conscious is continually integrating what is occuring now with what has occured in the past. This leads to us receiving 'intuitional' messages from our sub-conscious when it encounters problems it has already solved, but which it has yet to reveal to the conscious mind.

As such, training, which increases experience, leads, over time, to a greater capacity for accurate intuition.

However, as Dale points out, in the west we are 'left-brain biased' or too reliant upon logic. This can cause us to dismiss or doubt our intuition.

As such, any exercises which bring our awareness into our 'right-side' or creative side will have the knock on effect of helping us to develop faith in our intuition.

[Keikai]

As such, any exercises which bring our awareness into our 'right-side' or creative side will have the knock on effect of helping us to develop faith in our intuition.

Are we not straying from the Kukan discussion here?

What are your views on kukan Dan?

[xen]

Are we not straying from the Kukan discussion here?

What are your views on kukan Dan?

possibly, but a question in an earlier post asked if the awareness dale's post hints at was down to just training generally or specific exercises which could accelerate its development.

Personally, I feel that intuition plays an important role in the development of ones awareness of space and the relationships which exist between each of us, hence my previous post.

To tackle a subject as abstract as kukan head on can lead to circular paragraphs as we try to put our fingers on clear definitions which everyone can relate to their own experience, hence using related issues and experiences as 'sign-posts' which can be used to point to the ellusive concept we are trying to discuss.

I'll try to give you a concise picture of my (limited) understanding...

Our perception of ourselves as individual and distinct entities is an illusion. A useful illusion, granted, but an illusion none-the-less. In reality, we are intimately connected to everything around us, from the innanimate objects we manipulate, to the sentient beings we interact with.

Life is a process which is based upon a tension and conflict of energies. This conflict occurs accross all levels of our experience. From the obvious conflicts we define from a human perspective, such as war, fights, arguments etc, to the battles between forces at the sub-atomic scale up to the cosmological scale. The universe is in a constant state of flux, with one force pushing in one direction, other forces checking and pulling in another.

What all these conflicting forces require is resolution, a return to a state of harmony and balance. (Of course, from one perspective, this flux is in harmony already, but that is another story ;))

Bringing this down to the level of the ninjutsu practioner, engaged in a physical conflict with an agressor, will allow us to consider kukan, or the space or 'arena' through which this conflict is manifesting.

If we forget kukan and just focus upon the physical task of landing punches and overcoming our opponent, we narrow our consciousness to the pure mechanics of the fight and close our perceptions down to the most primative.

However, if we have spent time developing an awareness of how the actions of our agressor are linked to and limited by the kukan which exists as the interplay of our energies, their energies and the energies of the environment we find ourself in, we put ourselves at a tremendous advantage. Why? How?

Well, the kukan which we find ourselves in is a unique creation which owes its existance to our own awareness of its presence. It will have its rules and limits. There are things which are avilable options within this unique creation, and things which are not. If we are sufficiently aware (or 'tuned in, man') we become capable of taking control of the way we (and our opponent) move through this space. Thus we can 'guide' them to attempt actions which cannot succeed in the given environment, allowing us to create the opportunity we require to eliminate the disharmony and restore the natural balance to the situation, (preferably in a way that serves our needs as opposed to theirs).

Dale's earlier point about the role of time in this process is important. The kukan is an entity in its own right. It will evolve through the conflict and its form will change. If we are not aware of these changes we are not working to our full potential and we could well make innappropriate decisions.

In short, we must be at the 'zero' state throughout the event, ready to utilise whatever advantage manifests itself. If we take any form of preconception into the arena, we must consider how the kukan will respond to that preconception. We are thus creating work for ourselves.

If we enter the arena with nothing in our mind but our desire to survive we are better placed to fully utilise the unique attributes of the current kukan. Hence we train to learn principles of motion, the psychology of conflict and the mechanics of action. We do not fill ourselves with techniques and counters as these are only applicable to the kukan through which we created them. Ie, if we practice things in the dojo and fall into the trap of believing that the training environment is transferable to the outside world we are deceiving ourselves. If, instead, we view the dojo time as a space (kukan) through which we can learn and experiment with the fundamental principles, if we utilise this time to internalise these principles, we are honing our intuition.

Thus when we encounter the kukan of an aggressive situation, our conscious mind can safely fall into its 'zero' state and our intuition acts as the medium for communication between the arena we are in and the subsequent actions we perform.

Phew! That was a task and a half...

anyone with more experience and a clearer view care to take over...please :rolleyes: :D

[Dale Seago]

Damn, that was good!!!

[xen]

you mean you understood it? :)

cool, i thought i'd be out-there on my own when i read it back to myself :D

[Lord Spooky]

er Xenmaster have you got Snake round at your place?......cuz I thik's he's nicked your Keyboard :D

[Keikai]

Phew! That was a task and a half...

anyone with more experience and a clearer view care to take over...please :rolleyes: :D

No Dan, that was great, good to hear your thoughts, do you live with snake? ;)

[Lord Spooky]

OK I'm posting on this not because I've got anything to say, it's all way over my head, but becuase I feel it's an interesting discussion and it tends to get missed now cuz it's not on the front page!!!!

So this should bring it back to the front :D

[rubberband]

Ttt

[Lord Spooky]

Ttt


:confused: :confused: :confused: :bang: :bang: :woo:

[saru1968]

Somehow lost this thread!! ***bangs head hard against jelly ***

Kukan= timing, distance and space, as norm says if you've got all three you've got Kukan.

your use of distance, timing and space and the uke's use of timing, distance and space.

looking at it in a 'visual' form imagine the 'shape' of the 'space' between tori and uke.

another way imagine you are applying omote gyaku, imagine the uke's thumb has a sparkler attached( and its lit) imagine the shape left by the movement. think of jumonji from kihon happo and the circular balls before threading the 'needle'. The shape left by your body avoiding the attack from start to finish.don't ask me if it makes sense, i just try and see if it works.

But Ben's your man with the ball, a bit vague i know but i'm still learning and my minds fragile at the best of times!

:-)

[rubberband]

Spooky FBI

ttt means "to the top" it is a way to get a lost thread back into action...

take care, steve

[Keikai]

Kukan= timing, distance and space, as norm says if you've got all three you've got Kukan.

:-)

I thought kukan = timing, distance and balance?? :D

[Lord Spooky]

Spooky FBI

ttt means "to the top" it is a way to get a lost thread back into action...

take care, steve


ahhhh I was wondering what the heck you were on about :D

Cheers

[kouryuu]

I thought kukan = timing, distance and balance?? :D

Yep, timing, distance and balance= Kukan, but this is just a simplified version, read the posts from Dale, etc, you`ll get a better understanding

[Dale Seago]

I think this thread, along with this one:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36670

and this one:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36724

has been about as informative regarding kukan as it's possible to be through the written word alone; but it's been brought to my attention that there is still a huge fundamental misconception in some readers' minds. Therefore, obviously, something is still missing.

Some people have made comments along the line of this stuff all being well and good, but you can't just keep moving around and expect the opponent to fall over -- sooner or later you pretty much have to grab, hit, lock, throw, or carve the guy like a Christmas goose. And how can you expect to do this if the guy is really fast, attacking in an "unorthodox" way, etc.?

That reveals the deficiency in what I and Ben Cole have put across. I'm pretty sure that neither of us has ever suggested that when working with kukan you don't have to do any of those things; but somehow some people have gotten that impression. So let me revisit this for a bit.

Proper use of kukan is what allows you to safely and freely smash, bash, lock up, throw, carve like a goose, etc., etc., your opponent without him being able to stop you if (a) you feel like doing so or if (b) he continues trying to fight when he's not in a good position to do so.

Go back and take a look at the military analogy I used on the first page of this thread. When you control the key terrain, it doesn't mean the enemy can't continue trying to fight you: It means that if he does try, you'll kill him. The wise foe will retreat or surrender:

Your unit can try to outshoot an enemy force, but it can be a grueling ordeal with heavy casualties on both sides. . .and you may be defeated. But if you control the terrain around the enemy so that you can reach him easily, while he cannot fire on you and cannot maneuver without exposing himself to your own fire, his defeat is inevitable. . .and you may save lives on the “enemy” side as well as your own. Whether the opponent lives or dies thus becomes, in a very profound sense, his own decision.

I'll try to give a very simple example of how working with kukan might be done in a taijutsu context using, say, the ichimonji no kamae form from the Kihon Happo. This is one way to do it. . .not the only one. . .and not the only one I use, either.

Before I describe it though, I'll start with something that occurred in one of my classes once. We happened to be working on a version of this particular kihon at the time, and we had a new guy in the class. Not exactly untrained -- he'd been studying at a SKH Quest Center in southern California and had just relocated north -- but new to our dojo. Big, strong, fast guy, who I think had done both judo and some sort of karate.

Anyhow, after we'd been working on this for a bit, he called me over and said, "I don't think this would work in a real fight. You're teaching us to move back and hit the punching arm -- but I don't punch like that, I punch like this (sharp, snapping-retraction lead hand jab). It wouldn't work against someone who punches like this."

"Well," I told him, "Let's see about that: Hit me, give it your best shot."

And there he was, weight forward and teetering on the balls of his feet, kamae broken, punching arm unretracted and hanging there in the air as I smashed it with a particularly wicked uke nagashi.

I couldn't resist saying, "I thought you didn't punch like that?" :D

I pointed out to him that beginners always think this part of the kihon is about learning to respond to someone's punching attack by getting out of the way and slamming his arm; but I don't see it that way. This kihon is the first step in learning how to make the opponent strike at you in a way that you can exploit by how you use timing, your rate of movement, direction, and physical structure to "shape the space" as things unfold. It might look to an outsider that you're responding to what the opponent does; but in reality you're controlling (or at any rate very strongly influencing) how it all goes down. He is the one who is responding to you, but neither he nor those who may be watching are aware of it. (Go back and look at Juan's "goofy attacks" on that 30-second video clip again.)

Okay, going back to one particular way of doing the form. I'm not going to try to explain exactly how you "suck the guy in" and make him attack when and how you want him to: You wouldn't be able to do it just from reading this anyway, you have to actually experiment on human bodies like any proper mad scientist. So we'll take it from that point and stipulate that we've already done this part, and we've just walloped the bejayzus out of his arm.

You don't "just" hit the arm, to cause pain. You strike in a way and direction that is going to further unbalance him structurally and further "shape the space" in a way that will allow you to move in for the shuto strike. (And here's a hint: the "Yellow Brick Road" you need to follow to get in there for the strike is not straight in along the same line -- but opposite direction -- as your initial tai-sabaki.)

Remember that arm you just used to hit his with? You also want to use that as a "terrain feature/obstacle" as you move in, using it to "preempt/occupy" the space through which he would need to move in order to get you. Done correctly that preemption also gives him the feeling that you have already moved into that space and helps keep him from regaining his balance; and as he tries to reorient his body to be able to address what you're doing he will himself present the opening for your shuto.

It's important to be aware that other things can also happen within this space. He could just bail out -- dive away, roll, and escape. Which is fine, as a fight necessarily involves two people. Or if he's quick enough, he might try to grab that arm you're using as a "space-holder" in order to regain his balance and/or attempt some sort of counter. . .which is also fine, because he is off-balance and not in a good position, and you can see/feel what's going on in plenty of time and can move more efficiently than he can, making it easy to "reshape the space" so you can do something else. In the first case he is choosing to retreat or surrender, and he lives. In the second, he's continuing to try to fight, but he's already "behind the power curve", so things will only get worse for him. He's decided to die, so you oblige him.

Proper use of kukan is what allows Sensei to do such amazing techniques and henka -- because by focusing on the space, he doesn't have to be tied to any technique. This is part of what he means when he says -- and Kurohana, this is a direct quote from Hatsumi so please leave it here! -- that "You have to be able to do things half-assed".

If you're in "good" space, you can mess up a technique and still be fine because you are, in that moment, safe -- you can easily do something different instead. . .or you can appear to be starting some technique or otherwise let the opponent begin to react to your movement, and thereby allow him to create the technique that destroys him.

I hope this is somewhat useful. . .

[kouryuu]

This is something Sensei said last September when i was at the Honbu, being a bit senile i didn`t remember it but one of my students did!;

"A point I've always remembered about Kukan is that Tori and Uke are two
sides of one coin, not two coins clashing together.

Therefore Kukan = (Tori + Uke) + (Shin Gi Tai) + (mai-i, kuzushi, timing etc
etc) interacting within the empty and occupied space. That's how you can be
the Dragon and the Tiger at the same time but not necessarily at the same
instant. This is Juppou Sesshou!

Combine that with:

Mi wo Shinobu - Conceal the body
Shin (kokoro) wo Shinobu - Conceal the Mind
Shiki wo Shinobu - Conceal the conciousness"

The hard part is that people can talk about it all they like but it is
unltimately worthless until they can employ that philosophy using
Taijutsu.......which is exactly what Hatsumi Sensei tells us all the time.
So where do we end up? Back at the beginning. Time for more Sanshin and
Kihon Happo!



Hope that helps :D

[Dale Seago]

YES!!!

Thanks!

[tengu666]

Very constructive thread! Also very good expanations by Dale and others. :p
I want to put some similar thing from Muay Thai - which is in my opinion essentially the same as Kukan. So, thier footwork by definition must do several functions:
"
- to put you in a position in which you can deploy one or more of the Muay Thai (my comment: whatevery MA) weapons
- to avoid your opponent's attack
- to give you an advantage over your opponent
- to put your opponent in a position in which they cannot attack you"

They don't mention terms like space, distance, timing, but essentialy they talk about the same thing. Being aware of the whole concept of the situation is also important, but I think it's also in these principles.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. :)

[Dale Seago]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. :)

Kukan is about far more than footwork and "advantageous positioning", it's about shape evolving through time.

I won't say your reference is "incorrect", but without further information it's on the same level as saying "koppojutsu is the art of attacking the bones".

[tengu666]

Kukan is about far more than footwork and "advantageous positioning", it's about shape evolving through time.

I won't say your reference is "incorrect", but without further information it's on the same level as saying "koppojutsu is the art of attacking the bones".

Yeah, agree. I said it's similar. Its definitely above footwork. I can say I've been involved in "kukan-based" training since 2000 (Koto ryu theme), where "capturing the space" was the key to each technique (although I didn't hear the term "kukan", so I'm now linking things), and Koppo was reffered as a higher meaning of this ryu, utilizing strategy of "breaking the backbone of the attack". Also Kosshi of Gyokko Ryu says that you must control opponent (his space) in that way like a fly in a spiders web. Each additional attack fly (uke) does, fly is more wrapped up in a web. Poor fly. :(

But, what are the means (ways) of managing (manipulating) kukan?

I figured out (this is MHO) that besides footwork, you must utilize Sabaaki gata (manipulating the oponent to capture the balance) on a "nine gates", right?
Am I missing some ingredients?

[Dale Seago]

But, what are the means (ways) of managing (manipulating) kukan?


Sorry, but that can only be understood through personal transmission -- that is to say, training -- from someone who understands.

[tengu666]

Sorry, but that can only be understood through personal transmission -- that is to say, training -- from someone who understands.

Hm, if you are talking about a feeling part, ok. But, I'm pretty sure that the basic part can be explained in a space-time "coordinate system", and means (tools) must be known, therefore can be enlisted. Not specific tecniques, but principles used.

[Dale Seago]

Hm, if you are talking about a feeling part, ok. But, I'm pretty sure that the basic part can be explained in a space-time "coordinate system", and means (tools) must be known, therefore can be enlisted. Not specific tecniques, but principles used.

Sorry, but I don't think I can express it any better than Ben Cole did in this post from another thread: (http://http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=574572#post574572)

The way I see it, if you have been raised to do "Kuzushi-based Taijutsu" (which is the idea of manipulating the uke to take the balance in order to make one's throws/strikes/etc. more effective), it is very difficult to wrap one's brain around the idea of doing "Kukan-based Taijutsu."

It just is....

That's why it is hard for people to just "do an exercise" and "get it." One must instead take out your old eyes and replace them with a new pair. Every practice in my dojo focuses on these issues. It's not just every once in a while. One needs to be exposed over and over and over to the same concepts until one day you say, "I see the ball!"

And like me, he's talking about having it constantly re-emphasized through physical training.

If you insist on an exercise to work with, apart from the example I gave earlier for working with the Ichimonji no Kamae form from the Kihon Happo, then this tip from Ben from yet another thread (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=573284#post573284) is about as good as it gets:

Dale and I share a similar perspective on the idea of seeing the space. The best way of describing it is to IGNORE the person and instead focus on the space. Over time, you will be able to "read" the space and understand precisely where the uke will move/punch/kick BEFORE the movement begins. This is different from "sensing" something is "not right" about a person before he acts.

Once you can see the space, you can learn to manipulate it. This is very different from controlling the uke through manipulations. And it starts to go into the "mind control" type of stuff that Soke and the Shihan can do. Basically, you end up punching or kicking where THEY want you to punch/kick, not where YOU want to punch/kick. :D

I encourage people, such as Matt, to spend a lot more time on this type of stuff during their training. Instead of looking at the opponent who is coming to attack, focus on the space. If you assume that you start out in a "safe place," which is accompanied by space of a certain shape and size, then as the uke comes to attack, making your place "unsafe," then you will know where you need to go to keep your place "safe." Just move there. :D

Eventually the uke will become "trivial." You are not fighting arms and legs. You are fighting to keep the space safe.

[Dale Seago]

Hey, Ben -- something occurred to me just now, perhaps as a result of having Sean and Sophia in class last night.

Can you see the balls when you're watching video of someone else -- Soke for example -- or does it require 3-dimensional space? (I'm thinking that would almost certainly be a requirement since Kukan is a multidimensional thing.)

[KSprenk]

About those balls, Lets say two people who were very skilled in kukan and could see the balls, If they were doing a technique or whatever, would they see the same balls? It would seem so to me since space doesnt really belong to anybody.

[bencole]

Hey, Ben -- something occurred to me just now, perhaps as a result of having Sean and Sophia in class last night.

:rolleyes:

Can you see the balls when you're watching video of someone else -- Soke for example

Most certainly. At the basic level, there is nothing stopping you from seeing the "easy" balls on video. In fact, the ability to see the balls makes viewing the action "easier." You can understand more of what is going on. Sean and Soph have both commented that they cannot help but notice the balls around Soke when watching him on video.

I think it is more difficult to see the more esoteric balls on video, though. But the most obvious ones are more than enough fun!

Hope your visitors weren't too distracting....

-ben

[bencole]

About those balls, Lets say two people who were very skilled in kukan and could see the balls, If they were doing a technique or whatever, would they see the same balls? It would seem so to me since space doesnt really belong to anybody.

Yes. The battle will be over the same balls.

But remember, I can create new ones that do not currently exist. So can my opponent. It starts turning into a very strange interchange, so to speak, at the highest manipulations.

-ben

[Dale Seago]

Hope your visitors weren't too distracting....


Sean and Soph weren't, but the baby is so heartwrenchingly beautiful it was hard to stop lookng at her. :)

[Kata-Kid]

:love: :love: Could this thread be made sticky, i've learned a a lot from reading it (but whould probably learn even more, as my training progresses) and whould hate to loose know-how presented here.

[Keikai]

Agreed,

This should be a sticky, and the other one about watching space!

[Shizukanaarashi]

:Angel: Yet again, it is proving really beneficial reading to learn from someone else's experience. I joined MAP out of curiosity, just a bit of fun. What I am finding is that it puts much I have learned into a different, sometimes better context - this being a perfect case in point. I've always been taught about this idea, but without actually "seeing" that this is what I was learning. :Angel:

Someone new to MA, often tries to execute what they are shown without moving and it doesn't work the way they are expecting it to 'cos they are not creating any space to work in or fail to affect their uke sufficiently to limit their options, balance etc. As I stumble along my journey, I see more and more often, "holes" in what is happening that could be exploited to better unbalance or control my opponent.

If I understand what is being talked about here then this is because I am coming to appreciate the space we are working in. Much of this appears to be about acting in a way that leads your uke into acting in a detrimental (to him) fashion, perhaps over extending, moving too soon or in a way that suits you.

From reading Xenmasters post, it all seems very much about learning to improve your intuition and I wonder whether you can very deliberately set out to learn to see this space in any given "technique" thereby setting out to improve your intuition? I mean by playing with it, changing it and learning why it works one way better than another and then working on that with this idea in mind, as well as working with models like the "balls" concept. It works this way because...XYZ, try it this way to appreciate the XYand Z, do it enough from enough different training examples and Bobs your uncle, you've wired it into your intuition.

Is this learn one thing, know one hundred? :)

I hope I'm sort of looking in the right direction with this?

[Kata-Kid]

Thats more-or-less exactly my thoughts, and that's also why i came with post #49 (being THE noob:rolleyes: ), though i gotta admit that i had to read some of the post 2/3 times before understanding them (read some of'em 4/5/6 times and was still totally clueless:o ).

[saru1968]

i had to read some of the post 2/3 times before understanding them (read some of'em 4/5/6 times and was still totally clueless:o ).


heh heh

don't worry about it sometimes its years before it makes sense!


just enjoy the journey


:-)

[Dale Seago]

Much of this appears to be about acting in a way that leads your uke into acting in a detrimental (to him) fashion. . .

Yup!

Is this learn one thing, know one hundred?

Yup again. :cool:

[bencole]

I've always been taught about this idea, but without actually "seeing" that this is what I was learning.

Yes, these concepts are the not the "property" of any one person. They are at the heart of Soke's Budo.

From reading Xenmasters post, it all seems very much about learning to improve your intuition and I wonder whether you can very deliberately set out to learn to see this space in any given "technique" thereby setting out to improve your intuition?

I personally believe that it is more than just intuition. I believe these concepts can be "worked" and "learned" by using certain tools. We'll see if these tools make any sense to anyone else soon after my seminars on the subject. :D

Is this learn one thing, know one hundred? :)

Yes. I believe that any technique in the densho is individually trivial. The kata are just tools for allowing one to see the thread that ties them all together. I believe (and not everyone will agree) that the thread is the kukan, and more specifically, the manipulation of these balls of kukan in the environment.

I guess we have to wait until some people from MAP turn up as guinea pigs at one of my seminars when I introduce some of these tools. :D It does little good to have one of my students rave about my tools and balls! :rolleyes: We need some unbiased guinea pigs who want to experience my balls first-hand! :eek: LOL!

Looking forward to not being found criminally insane in the MAP court of law....

-ben

[KSprenk]

You are having a seminar on this? I would surely love some details...

[Shizukanaarashi]

.I guess we have to wait until some people from MAP turn up as guinea pigs at one of my seminars when I introduce some of these tools. :D It does little good to have one of my students rave about my tools and balls! :rolleyes: We need some unbiased guinea pigs who want to experience my balls first-hand! :eek: LOL! .....
Gary has got me unreasonably excited about your balls Ben, in any other context than this forum, that would be a very worrying sentiment. :Angel:

Can't wait to be a Guinea Pig, assuming you are able to find the time to skip over the water.

Bruce

[Brad Ellin]

I guess we have to wait until some people from MAP turn up as guinea pigs at one of my seminars when I introduce some of these tools. :D It does little good to have one of my students rave about my tools and balls! :rolleyes: We need some unbiased guinea pigs who want to experience my balls first-hand! :eek: LOL!

Looking forward to not being found criminally insane in the MAP court of law....

-ben

Providing I'm not flying that weekend (and I have already put in for vacation) I shall be attending one of Ben's seminars in the next few months. Unbiased? Not sure, because I've been following this thread with great intensity and can't wait to experience (or at least try to) first hand what Ben has to offer. Though I will say, his last seminar, while greatly enjoyed by me and everyone else, was so packed with little nuggets that I may have missed the overall idea he was trying to get across :o But the sushi was good :D

[Highland Ninja]

Yeah, ok, so this is a 2 year old thread resurrection. But it's one of the best, most interesting, and informative posts on the entire site! And I gotta ask Brad for a follow-up. Did this seminar take place? What did you discover there? This is too juicy a topic to leave it dead for two years! :)

[Brad Ellin]

Yes, the seminar (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=739776&postcount=1) took place. You can read my review here (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=739776&postcount=1).

[Highland Ninja]

Awesome! Thanks Brad! This is a lot more interesting than the religion thread! ;)

[Fusen]

So, short version, Kukan balls theory, is Torquing people off Balance in order to destroy their body structure, i.e. head over chest, chest over hips, hips over feet etc. Or is there more to it then that?

[Brad Ellin]

So, short version, Kukan balls theory, is Torquing people off Balance in order to destroy their body structure, i.e. head over chest, chest over hips, hips over feet etc. Or is there more to it then that?

More to it than that. Torquing wasn't even involved most of the time.

Very hard for me to explain, so I don't try. Best I could com eup with is, have you seen the web site with the girl (or President Bush) surrounded by bubbles? And with the mouse and cursor, you drag her over the bubbles and watch the body as it rolls and falls? The Kukan 'balls' that Ben describes are similiar to that.

Remember, this is what Ben sees. I don't claim to see them, but if I try I can see the relaionship between people and objects as it relates to these balls.

Make sense? Probably not.

[Fusen]

Interesting, but wouldnt most simple movements be made of circles since that is how all joints of the body function?

[Brad Ellin]

Probably, but Ben wasn't talking about circles, but 3 dimensional balls. Using the inside and outside (circumference) of various sizes of balls.

Circles are rather limiting,3 directions to choose from, whereas balls have unlimted directions of travel to choose from.

Any way, that's my take on it. Not Ben's. Email him if you would like to know more. Set up a seminar with him. It's fun and you'll learn something really cool.