KSW: Typical day in the Dojang [Archive]

justinksw

20-Apr-2005, 07:01 PM

I'll start this off I guess... quick background on me: I've been studying KSW for a little over 2 years, and I will be testing for Dan Bo Nim within the next 2 months.

We practice on Monday and Wednesday nights (with a make-up class on saturday morning). Every class starts with the usual warm-up routine of stretches, pushups, situps, and sometimes running. Usually lasts about 15min.

Next we head into punches and/or kicks - depends on what the instructor has in mind. If we concentrate on punches one night, then it's kicks the next. That takes up the next 15 minutes or so. A lot of times we will also do falling in this time slot.

Forms are typically next; we have to split the class in half and alternate doing forms due to class size and the size of our dojang. Sometimes this takes up the rest of the class, and other times we just go through them for the mental practice.

Finally, we will either do techniques or sparring. If the forms were done extensively, then we run through our last set of techniques and critique them, and possibly learn one new one. If forms were short, then we go through all of our techniques (this puts us over our alloted hour of practice time).

Many nights the practice goes well over an hour (which my wife just LOVES). No two weeks of training are the same, and many times it depends on what is coming up in the near future - e.g. tournaments, visit from Kuk Sa Nim, demos...

In my honest opinion, we don't do enough sparring. There just isn't a lot of interest for it in the many 'older' adults in the class. Those of us who desire more sparring take it upon ourselves to set up time to get together and practice sparring.

Now I'm sure I left something out of this - I wrote kind of quick (and I'm at work :D ). I hope this helps!

Justin

Aegis

20-Apr-2005, 10:57 PM

As someone practicing another art, I'd personally recommend trying to get sessions at least 2 hours long, as it gives you plenty of scope to do loads in every class. In addition, you could easily send away the beginners after an hour or 90 minutes and then concentrate on the more advanced students for a while.

TXKukSoolBB

21-Apr-2005, 03:24 AM

We generally will focus one class per week on strikes/kicks, and forms. The second class during the week will cover techniques, falls and weapons. This is our "general" curriculum. However, we also will modify depending on testing, seminars, and tournament. I teach a specific Dahn Bo Nim/Black belt class in addition to the others above that we call our "raise the bar" class. This class is any where from 1.5 hours to 2. We place a lot of emphasis on physical training and improving our basic skills as well as polish our techniques with full takedowns. This really helps prepare my students for the environment they will encounter during their multiple testings in Houston. It is important to note that in the students regular classes, we also stress physical training, just not at the level of the more challenging class. Our physical training includes, but not limited to: push-ups, crunches, leg lifts, body squats, cherry pickers, mountain climbers, burpees (they love those!)...etc. These are mixed throughout the class. Although I have put this last...it should have been first. The most important thing we work on, from start to finish, is etiquette. It is the cornerstone of Kuk Sool and our training. Hope this helps.

baubin2

21-Apr-2005, 04:52 AM

We train 3x a week, for an hour and a half each time. Some people like to stay longer when they can, but that's not part of the official practice. Anyway...

Mondays and Wednesdays are the more formal days; fewer people attend on Saturdays so we tend to do cooler stuff then. We start out with warm ups, then stretching, then workout stuff. Sometimes we do kicks and strikes, sometimes we do lots of kicks, sometimes we do forms (doing forms in right-guard stance or with your eyes closed is fun). Typically what we do is up to which JKN is leading this section of practice (there are currently four). Also, we sometimes throw Taiji stuff into the stretching/warm-up section b/c several members of the club do it in their spare time.

After the warm-up session, we usually split into belt levels and practice techniques. The JKN's split up and one will take the white belts, one the yellow, and so on and so forth. Upper belts sometimes do weapons (staff, sword, knives, etc.). Mat space is limited, so only one group can do takedowns on techniques properly at a time, usually. Sometimes Matt JKN takes whoever wants to work out to the side and puts them through lots of cardio, situps, pushups, etc. Sometimes we do cool stuff like sparring, grappling, clinics. This is usually on Saturdays, since Saturdays are the times when the least people come, so they are the times when the JKN's can devote the most attention to the people who do come. Like this Saturday, we are supposed to come in street clothes b/c Matt JKN wants to show us the diff. between a round kick to the head in a dobok and in jeans and a t-shirt.

Personally, I'd say that as long as you do three things, you'll be fine. Make sure your students are at a certain level of fitness. Second, make sure you always do warm-ups and stretching first thing. And third, make sure you are organized and fit all the required material into the curriculum in a timely fashion. Beyond that, you can teach what you're interested in, and also what your students are interested in. If lots of people like grappling, do grappling. If you like to spar, then devote a class or two to sparring. Also, you might want to occasionally throw the normal schedule out the window and show some of the cooler stuff. Keeps people interested, and throws in a little variety.

Personally, we're pretty lax on etiquette over here, which I like. We're polite and everything, don't get me wrong, but we don't take it to extremes either. I like it b/c I feel that we have a nice balance between being too stiff and formal to get really friendly with each other, but at the same time, we are studying ways to hurt each other and so the respect and etiquette is a good way to remind us to be careful.

Anyway, that's all I can think of. Probably not the best imput, b/c this is the only school I have ever studied in, and I'm only a yellow belt and therefore not very far along, but hopefully it will help.

Wolf

21-Apr-2005, 01:14 PM

Thanks guys. All this input is great! Hopefully it'll keep coming.

elephruit

19-Nov-2010, 01:44 AM

Thanks guys. All this input is great! Hopefully it'll keep coming.

Well, seeing as it's been 5 years, I don't think it will!

Herbo

19-Nov-2010, 11:05 AM

and the point of bumping this thread was?

Anyways, I don't think Wolf particularly cares about advice for starting a KS school now as he is no longer practicing.

Unjeesunsu

19-Nov-2010, 01:45 PM

Almost got me, thought Wolf was back, always enjoyed his posts.
Whatever happened to him anyway?

Unjee

unknown-KJN

19-Nov-2010, 04:02 PM

Whatever happened to him anyway?Except that he personalized his subtitled screen name (the smaller font that appears underneath a MAPer's screen name), it's quite possible it might read "moved on" instead of as Totalitarian Dictator. :dunno:

Besides, I think herbo had explained it already (post #8). :rolleyes:

PS: I haven't forgotten, Unjee, ... you owe me a PM if you're going to be true to your word. :evil:

Herbo

20-Nov-2010, 01:18 AM

I don't know the guy so can't speak for him. However, from reading his posts over at bullshido, where he is now a staff member, I believe he became disillusioned with his training and took up mma.

Hyeongsa

13-Dec-2010, 01:06 AM

Disillusioned with his training....
Then it looks like he was not cut our for TKMA. MMA is honestly just a disaster. I'm very saddened that even TMAists compete (though they dominate) in that sport. Sad.

Herbo

13-Dec-2010, 07:51 AM

Hyeongsa, lovely to hear from you as always. I honestly hope that your previous comment was blatent trolling. However, there's a sinking feeling in my stomach that you actually believe what you just posted.
Although my black belt is thinner than yours and I'm just another one of those inferior individuals who wasn't cut out for TKMA, so I doubt you'd listen to me.

A stylistic breakdown (although most of them use techniques from other disciplines) of the current UFC champions results in;
Muay Thai - 3/6
Wrestling - 3/6
Boxing/kickboxing - 2/6
BJJ - 3/6
Karate - 1* *Kyokushin

In what way are TMAers dominating?

You say MMA is sad, what with its in built quality control and realistic application. Although I'm sure its nothing compared to the golden days of getting taught 1x10^9 different underbelt forms and t3h d3ad(y KS grappling. Am I right?

I'm also curious as to what brought your wrath down upon us sporty types? Is there not enough threads to whinge about the Won on the go just now. Sad.

Pugil

13-Dec-2010, 12:13 PM

The inception of the UFC, and various MMA events, have proven the true combat worthiness (or lack of) in many individual fighting arts in recent years. In a similar way (although not quite such a barbaric and terminal manner) as seen in the Coliseum and other such gladiatorial arenas in days gone by.

PASmith

13-Dec-2010, 12:24 PM

MMA is honestly just a disaster

MMA has revolutionised martial arts training as we know it.
It gave MANY TMA's the kick up the arse they so badly needed.
It helped pull the wool from our eyes and recalibrated our martial arts boolsheet detectors.
Not bad for a "disaster".

KSW has a nice line in snazzy uniforms but has otherwise had minimal impact on the non-KS martial arts culture.

:)

That's not to criticise KSW at all but it's laughable that someone that does KSW sees fit to criticise MMA. You are not in any position to do so my friend.

unknown-KJN

13-Dec-2010, 02:19 PM

KSW has a nice line in snazzy uniforms but has otherwise had minimal impact on the non-KS martial arts culture.

:)I don't always agree with what you have to say, smitty, but this time you nailed it! :cool:

All loyal fanboyz of KSW please note that I, too, am not criticizing KSW, but it is laughable (the situation, not the art).

Hyeongsa

13-Dec-2010, 04:13 PM

No, Kuk Sool does not have much impact...except it is traditional martial artists that are requested time and time again to teach police, special forces, and even presidential body guards and not the current heavy weight champion of the sport of MMA. Sorry, it's true. Just because Kuk Sool doesn't have a line of shirts being sold by Century Martial Arts doesn't make it any less than MMA.

I think what happened with the WKSA is a disaster, but their still going strong. A disaster can be any number of things. My nephew might draw a picture that I think is a total disaster, but others might love its creativity and use of color. Same thing in this instance, if you think about it.

I respect MMA for what it is: a sport. And I would not want to get in the ring with any of them cause their really good at what they do! However, the traditional martial artists of the past that invented it (i.e. Gracie Jui Jitsu; by the way, if I'm wrong with this please let me know. I'm still learning about this new MMA craze) no longer participate in the UFC due to the inventing of rules: no downward elbows, no eye gouges, trunks only, no kicking people on the ground, etc. If you are active in MARTIAL COMBAT you should expect anything.

I did not mean for my comments to come off insulting, but in my area I have not had good experiences with the local MMA crowd. They are arrogant, annoying, cocky, and over all bad representations of their particular brand of martial arts. So far every one of them I've sparred/grappled did not tap out and usually just got up and left the mat or just layed there. If one of you grapple me and get me in something good, I'll tap and be happy about it! That means I need to get better and work on a defense for that. It's not so much the MMA I have a problem with, it's more or less the people that give it a bad time. I'll try to be more clear about it.

Traditional Martial Arts (of any kind) is very beneficial. Sometimes its just too much for some people.

Pugil

13-Dec-2010, 05:27 PM

MMA has revolutionised martial arts training as we know it....

It helped pull the wool from our eyes...

It obviously hasn't "...pulled the wool..." from Hyeongsa's eyes (or his brain!) :evil:

Herbo

13-Dec-2010, 05:34 PM

Nice backpedal. However, sure a special forces soldiers may get a PT lesson from his local Tae Kwon Joe, there's soldiers and marines up and down America being taught MAC and MCMAP respectively. The curriculums of which are derived from Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo and BJJ. Why? because they work, can be trained realistically with recruits and provide skills in a short time frame. Which is necessary as most of the time they'll be learning how to shoot people.

Now to educate you on the origins of the UFC. Rorian Gracie, eldest son of one of BJJs founders Helio Gracie organised the first UFC to showcase style versus style matchups and prove that BJJ was the best art. He did it quite well and as such you had the 1993 "big bang" in terms of BJJ popularity. Rorian later sold his shares when they were introducing more rules. Most of these however were for long term fighter safety i.e. no heelkicks to the kidneys - they didn't do much damage or improve fighter position but over a career they could be devastating.
The rules protect the fighters from serious injury while still allowing them to train as realistically as possible. Although different organisations have different rules.

You say that TMA can be too much for some people. For others it can be not enough. You say you respect MMA as a sport but your tone is saturated with a TMA superior attitude.

elliotmurphy

13-Dec-2010, 05:45 PM

The marines have a whole belt system they use, I used to see them training in Iraq with it all the time, and the army has gone to "the army combatives courses" based primarily from bjj, but unlike the marines where the belt system is mandatory for rank promotions, not everyone in the army takes it past the first level.

elliotmurphy

13-Dec-2010, 05:49 PM

iI always liked the marines philosophy better, the average marine is trained in hand to. hand much better than the army personal on average, the army doesn't spend a lot of time and money on hand to hand unless you are in a specialized unit.

unknown-KJN

13-Dec-2010, 06:31 PM

Hi, Elliot.

I think the "army combatives courses" you mentioned (in post #20) are one & the same as the MAC [sic] that herbo alluded to (in post #19). As best I can tell, the correct reference should be MACP (Modern Army Combatives Program). MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) is the correct reference for what's currently in place for the USMC.

Here are some links that I found for both items, which will download PDFs of the manuals:

US Army "Modern Army Combatives Program" Field Manual (http://www.wabujitsu.com/fm3_25x150.pdf)

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program Manual (http://www.wabujitsu.com/mcmp.pdf)

And while I don't doubt that the MCMAP is a conglomeration of various things, herbo, I think I'd rather ask MAPer, Ki_Power, what his take on it might be before accepting your POV, simply because he was heavily involved with that particular program (supposedly from its inception) as well as being a diehard kuksooler.

I'm also curious why something like Krav Maga wasn't mentioned. Isn't it reportedly the be-all/end-all of modern *combat MA*? :dunno:

Hyeongsa

13-Dec-2010, 06:34 PM

Some people don't like TMA. Some people don't like MMA.
I said I respect the sport and that I dont' respect the people that screw it up and act cocky/arrogant. The same goes for anything else I suppose. I'm not back peddling, I still think that the MMA culture has had disasterous effects; it teaches to bounce around and mix concepts from different arts. It teaches arrogance over humility and that fighting is deffinitely okay. I would call that disasterous because in TMA, that's not what we teach. If you fight, you win. Don't start a fight. Always be humble and respectful, etc.

Sometimes I don't write clearly and think one thing and dont' actually write it out. I'll try better to word my thoughts more properly next time.

And Pugil, your not one to talk. You bounce around from savate to escrima, yet you still teach Kuk Sool. Your a prime example of what MMA does to people: they become disrespectful. You teach "Muk Yang Sool" as your Kuk Sool class even though your master invented the system Sul Ki Do. Your not honoring your master; from a traditional stand point your insulting him. Why not just call it "Kuk Sool"? No, your just too bitter. Maybe you relied only on Kuk Sool back in the day and got your ass beat up because you didn't train hard enough. Or maybe your bitter towards the WKSA. So much for wool over the eyes. In your case its more like a stick up the ass.

A punch is a punch a kick is a kick; I don't see how learning from more than one system will help you make it any better. The only way to make it better is practice, sparring, and more practice.

elliotmurphy

13-Dec-2010, 07:16 PM

Yes unknown they are the same as herbo mentioned, I was mostly speaking to the fact that while I was in the army that I thought that the marine training system was better, but yeah I was talking the way soldiers talk about, they often leave off the modern part of it simply referring to it as the army combatives course in casual conversation. In the unit I was in they always started on their knees, which turned me off to it because I thought that one should start on their feet. and although I can't seem to use those darn smileys cuz I am using my phone, I am smiling! Soooo happy. And while seeing the two systems in actual training scenarios I have never seen the manuals, thanks for posting the links, have a great day

elliotmurphy

13-Dec-2010, 07:29 PM

I was able to download the pdf, nothing like a new military manual to brighten ones day!

Ki_Power

13-Dec-2010, 08:16 PM

Thanks for mentioning me unknown...so now comes my 3 cents worth...

My opinion about ALL Martial Arts is simple - you will get out of it what you put into it.

I have my fair share of this that and the other...and when I found Kuk Sool, I found something out about myself as well. The ability to expand beyond what is "seen".

It's pretty simple, and most of you all know this...but take MCMAP for example. It's a great combat oriented martial arts style...that grows with the user. The key point though is the "user" most grow too.

When I went through my initial training in MCMAP which led to becoming and Instructor in MCMAP...I found many of the techniques taught to be quite similar to what we in Kuk Sool know...of course, variance and method of application always raise an eyebrow to one who may be versed in a different style or system. Bottom line though...if you train your arse off in MCMAP, be careful...because you just might end up getting your arsed kicked by a Marine.

But, the same goes for ALL Martial Arts. If you work your butt off, you will be good...but if you can expand your mind, you will be great at application.

They say all fights end up on the ground. I was the only white boy in my neighborhood growing up in East LA...so I have been in many fights...and even while in the Marines...I have been in plenty of fights and also as a Military Police Officer - had to mix it up! BUT I HAVE NEVER ENDED UP ON THE GROUND!

I'm good on the ground though...and trust me...I used to go to the MCMAP Dojo every day to roll...and I can easily hold my own...and I teach ground fighting to my students.

Every time a knife has been pulled on me, or a suspect got stupid...I used Kuk Sool...heck, when I first came in the Marines and we used LINE training, I remember a LINE Instructor saw I was moving like I had some skills...he asked about my MA background and I told him about KS. He then proceed to say, "what would you do if I grabbed you here!" And he grabbed the top of my shoulder...later I was standing tall in front of my School of Infantry Commanding Officer, explaining why I ripped that Sergeant's shoulder out of socket.

We are all great if we make ourselves great...

KSW4Life

13-Dec-2010, 09:07 PM

"I'm not back peddling, I still think that the MMA culture has had disasterous effects; it teaches to bounce around and mix concepts from different arts. It teaches arrogance over humility and that fighting is deffinitely okay."

This is a very uneducated statement, you are stereotyping the entire industry. I train with MMA Fighters, Jiu Jitsu Fighters and Muay Thai Fighters. They are all quite humble and very dedicated athletes. I've never heard an instructor encourage anyone to fight unless they have no choice. In fact, I hear them say all the time that once you are able to, you should run away. Of course you are going to run into your hot head students or instructors, but they are few and far between. Actually, I hear new students in our academy say all the time they are pleasantly surprised at how humble and friendly everyone in our academy is because they did the same thing as you Heong, they stereotyped our students based on their tatoos, piercings or musicall tastes. Sorry you had a bad experience, but that blanket statement is so far from the truth.

Now, I have seen a Tae Kwon Do Olympic Athlete knock out a ref. over a bad call...........I guess all of you traditional martial artists have no ettiquete.

Hyeongsa

13-Dec-2010, 09:17 PM

KSW4Life: I am relieved to hear not all MMA stylists are thugs. However, in this area that is all I have run into. Forgive my blanket statement, but if all you run into is that you start thinking maybe thats all that is to offer, no? When it comes to the piercings, tats, etc that has nothing to do with my statement. Some of my students are like that and it doesn't bother me a bit. It's not how you look but how you act.

Then I recant my statement, but I'm still apprehensive. That last statement, however, is uneducated on your part: I said "I respect the sport and that I dont' respect the people that screw it up and act cocky/arrogant. The same goes for anything else I suppose." Please read my statement a little closer next time. The TKD stylist you refer to misrepresented the art of TKD. Had I been a noob, and never seen a fight before, I might think that all TMA are like that, no?

elliotmurphy

13-Dec-2010, 10:33 PM

Very well said ki power, very well saidindeed.

KSW4Life

14-Dec-2010, 02:06 AM

Actually, you said the mma culture, that is quite the blanket statement and still quite the ASSumption.

Lumberjack

14-Dec-2010, 04:23 AM

As someone who thoroughly enjoys training in Kuk Sool, I would definitely admit that training in mma is probably best for someone solely interested in learning to fight (without weapons). It offers many more hard sparring opportunities and concentrates on what has been shown to work in a fight (albeit a sport fight). I would say it has a faster learning curve and creates an environment were young tough, fight minded individuals can test each others skills.

I think within Kuk Sool all the skills are there, except the ground skills need more expansion. Its just the training in the majority of schools is not centered around fighting. There is focus on self development, etiquette, culture, health, art, an atmosphere for the whole family, etc.

I have a background with hard sparring training and frankly I'm happy I don't have to train like that every time I go in (I do on occasion). I know at this stage in my life my body would break down. I think most of the students at the school I go to would feel the same way. Most people are just not going to thrive training like a UFC fighter. Those fighters train multiple times a day often at very high intensity.

I think also if you water down the mma training to make it accessible for everyone then at that point its like most TMAs anyway. Even BJJ can wear on you and be injurious. My good friend is a purple belt at a very good bjj with a very sought after instructor and he says there are always knuckle heads that come at you like its a death match to try and earn their next rank often resulting in some nagging injury he then needs to deal with (and he is good by the way).

If you train Kuk Sool sincerely and practice hard and often you still may not be able to take on the GSPs of the world but I truley believe you are developing abilities that you can use for defense (among other things)

SeongIn

14-Dec-2010, 09:15 AM

Is MMA even a style? It seems to be a mix of any combination of things as long as it has some ground aspect with some stand up aspect. If it is bjj, then lets be honest and say old Judo Ne-waza (lying down skills). Also, I notice much of the current ground 'game' takes very much from western H.S. or Collegiate wrestling. So lets be honest and say American wrestling. The kicks, well, they are pretty crude no matter where they claim to come from. Lets add in some dirty boxing (that is, not high quality boxing) for handwork. Then, when too many others start using this recipe, lets change it by swaping out this for that etc.

As to the thinking that MMA has more types of DaeRyeon (Opposition Practice/Sparring), this is just so wrong. Within my art, we have 7 different types of sparring before we even consider the various combinations of those 7 types.

Also, I have had various MMA types come to train with me who get upset when I teach more than 3 techniques in a class. I have heard from these people repeatedly, "We (meaning they in their MMA classes) train only 3 techniques plus its counters per class", "If you cannot learn it in 3 lessons, its not worth teaching". I have also noted that MMA (and by various names) is being taught as HoSinSul (Self-Defense Art) meaning memorized counters to specified situations. It is not nearly as freely applicable as it is advertised to be.

I have no point to prove or not with my above statements. Just things that I've noted from that community.

Herbo

14-Dec-2010, 09:44 AM

My opinion;

MMA is a ruleset, you are training MMA if you train to fight under that ruleset. That can be a generic MMA class in which you are taught techniques from disciplines such as wrestling, BJJ, Muay thai etc. Or it can be training disciplines seperately and bringing them together to fight in the cage i.e. training BJJ in the gi.

KS may have X types of sparring, but in your average KS school, how much time is spent on hard continuous sparring? Sure there are schools that do, but for the majority of practitioners do not get as much, if any exposure to it.
Compare that to every Judo or BJJ class I've been at where the formula was for a 1.5h class;

10m warmup - 20m technique instruction - 20-30m drilling - 30-40m rolling/sparring.

It's not hard to see why people see results faster.

Regarding the learning of techniques, I'd say three lessons is a bit generous. I recall Matt Thornton saying that if a beginner can't pick up a technique and drill it against a compliant opponent in the first class, then they're not ready for it and would never be able to pull it off against a resisting opponent.
Obviously subsequent classes will drill it more with increased resistance until you have the student pulling it off in rolling/sparring.

Pugil

14-Dec-2010, 10:00 AM

And Pugil, your not one to talk. You bounce around from savate to escrima, yet you still teach Kuk Sool. Your a prime example of what MMA does to people: they become disrespectful. You teach "Muk Yang Sool" as your Kuk Sool class even though your master invented the system Sul Ki Do. Your not honoring your master; from a traditional stand point your insulting him. Why not just call it "Kuk Sool"? No, your just too bitter. Maybe you relied only on Kuk Sool back in the day and got your ass beat up because you didn't train hard enough. Or maybe your bitter towards the WKSA. So much for wool over the eyes. In your case its more like a stick up the ass.

Get off your high horse Sonny Jim! Who the hell gives you the right to speak to me in that manner, you little piece of ....!

For the benefit of others, who may have read your post and might like to hear the truth of the matter, rather than your inane and insane ramblings:

Having been involved in the martial arts for well-over 37 years, I am actually fully qualified to teach a number of different systems — including Savate and Eskrima. I do not "...bounce around..." in or between those arts. And with there being more than one day in each week — where I come from at least — I am actually able to teach different things on different nights.

Because there are not enough days in the week, however, to teach all of the arts I am qualified to teach individually, I no longer teach Kuk Sool classes per se. In fact, I haven't done so for many years. If anyone comes to me wanting to learn Kuk Sool specifically, I always point them in the direction of Philip Hinchcliffe and his group in Cambridge.

When I am involved in teaching any of the TKMA stuff, either during private individual or group sessions [as I did for a local Taekwondo group a couple of years back], I call what I teach 'Mok Yang Sool' — IN RESPECT OF MY FORMER MASTER, MOK YANG KIM. I do not use the name 'Sulkido' purely and simply because I no longer remember or teach Taekwondo forms. Sulkido is a blend of Kuk Sool/Hapkido and Taekwondo you see!

As for insulting him — WE did that when we went behind his back and aligned ourselves with the WKSA. And by 'we', I mean the main movers in the UK at that time: Philip Holmes, Me, Doc Williams and, a little later, Richard Roper. Shortly after we had done what we had done to him, I felt guilty of having been part of a gross wrong-doing towards Master Kim, and so I 'fell on my sword' as far as the WKSA and the TKMA's were concerned. And just so you know, Master Kim and I sometimes met up after that time for a chat over a coffee. And when he died, I was the only one of those listed above who attended his funeral and paid due respects to my former teacher and latter-day friend.

Should you ever feel fit to venture out of whatever hole you reside in, and come over to the UK, be sure to look me up. Keyboard warriors are two-a-penny, I'd much prefer to hear you speak your B/S directly to my face, with me looking you directly in the eyes!

PASmith

14-Dec-2010, 10:18 AM

Lets add in some dirty boxing (that is, not high quality boxing)

That's not what dirty boxing is. You don't seem to understand what it is perhaps?
One of the best exponents of dirty boxing in MMA is Randy Couture. Try lookng at the way he fights and see if it's "high quality" or not. :)

Pugil

14-Dec-2010, 10:56 AM

...I still think that the MMA culture has had disasterous effects; it teaches to bounce around and mix concepts from different arts.

"Kuk Sool Won™ is a systematic study of all of the traditional fighting arts, which together comprise the martial arts history of Korea. As a martial arts system, Kuk Sool Won™ is exteremely well-organized; and seeks to integrate and explore the entire spectrum of established Asian fighting arts and body conditioning techniques, as well as mental development and traditional weapons training."

"...all of the traditional fighting arts..."

"...seeks to integrate and explore the entire spectrum of established Asian fighting arts..."

Sounds like MIXED Martial Arts to me!

SeongIn

14-Dec-2010, 01:46 PM

"Kuk Sool Won™ is a systematic study of all of the traditional fighting arts, which together comprise the martial arts history of Korea. As a martial arts system, Kuk Sool Won™ is exteremely well-organized; and seeks to integrate and explore the entire spectrum of established Asian fighting arts and body conditioning techniques, as well as mental development and traditional weapons training."

"...all of the traditional fighting arts..."

"...seeks to integrate and explore the entire spectrum of established Asian fighting arts..."

Sounds like MIXED Martial Arts to me!

The concept of "Mixed" and "Comprehensive" is not the same thing.

Convergencezone

14-Dec-2010, 01:59 PM

You know, I'd like to relate a strange thing has happened to me more than once in the last couple of years.

Before I go into this, I'd like to say that although my club is a mixture of Hapkido and Kuk Sool, I also train in BJJ and have a background that includes, among things, western boxing and kyokushin. I have a deep appreciation for mixed martial arts, and if I were younger, would probably train MMA. So I think I am far from a TKMA nut rider who thinks that traditional martial arts are superior to modern training methods.

But here's the thing...

Remember the stories that used to go around a few a years back, about how some TMA guy would come into a BJJ or MMA gym and claim that he could counter the moves and that his techniques were too deadly?

Surprisingly, myself and several people I know are now encountering this situation in reverse. it goes like this- some guy that comes in to a TMA class and claims that he's done submission that or MMA that, or wants to "roll" with the TMA instructor or something or other. In every case I know about the purported MMA guy has had no skills. I have even gone so far as remain totally compliant to see if someone was able to put a joint lock on me, but in every case the person in question could not do so. (This does not just happen in TMA, my BJJ coach has also told me that self identified "MMA" guys have come into his class and this has happened too).

A brief survey of commercial martial arts in my are indicates that many are now offering "MMA", or say things like "MMA Karate" or some other dumb marketing sh__. Those of us who are old enough to remember the Kung fu craze saw the same thing with that, when everyone was adding "Kung Fu" to what they taught, because, hey...it all comes from China, right?

These market conditions have created a generation of unskilled meatheads that think that because they are more angry than the average person, they have some kind of skill. They are basically the 21st century equivalent of the TKMA weirdos that that used to sat their techniques were "too deadly".

Obewan

14-Dec-2010, 02:06 PM

The concept of "Mixed" and "Comprehensive" is not the same thing.

"Comprehensive: 1. Broadly or completely covering; including a large proportion of something."

"Mixed: 1. Having two or more separate aspects.

2. Not completely pure, tainted or adulterated.

Taken from Wicked dictionary. I particularly like #2 of Mixed, yes? :evil:

Regards

KSW4Life

14-Dec-2010, 02:16 PM

"Comprehensive: 1. Broadly or completely covering; including a large proportion of something."

Goodness, then I guess what you are saying Seong In is that Kuk Sool does not appropriately represent itself......I think most would agree that it completly covers nothing, but only touches on a little bit of everything.

Obewan

14-Dec-2010, 02:21 PM

Nope I think he may be saying...MMA = Not completely pure, tainted or adulterated.

SeongIn

14-Dec-2010, 02:28 PM

I'm saying a comprehensive art is "Broadly or completely covering; including a large proportion of something" whereas MMA is "Having two or more separate aspects" which does not include a large portion of something but rather includes fragments of different styles.

I mean, we can play word games...but I think the difference between Mixed and Comprehensive is not complicated.

P.S. Note the word "or" in your own defintion of comprehensive applies here.

As to the tainted thing, I certainly have a very strong opinion on this...but i'll keep it to myself so as not to stir up controversy.

elliotmurphy

14-Dec-2010, 02:34 PM

To what cz said, it seems that often people are always ready to cash in on the latest buzz words and fads, and that is a big difference that is addressed all the time between actual martial artists and people who are in for the latest fad or because they are angry, one can only hope that those same people learn something in spite of themselves eventually, and for school owners you see all the time schools that disappear or go out of business because the school owner is angry or trying too hard to be part of the latest trend instead of offering quality instructions and telling people the truth about martial arts that it is hard work requiring dedication, practice, and self control regardless if whatever style or method one chooses to reach that goal. anger plus skill with no self control only makes bullies! And sooner or later one either ends up in jail, out of business, shunned by ones community or any combination of the above. Society in general seems to more and more rude, and demanding of instant gratification instead of having manners and some sense of hard work and discipline while respecting others

Pugil

14-Dec-2010, 02:36 PM

KSW4Life

14-Dec-2010, 02:38 PM

SeongIn

14-Dec-2010, 02:44 PM

In my quote (taken directly from the front page of the WKSA) neither the words 'mixed' nor 'comprehensive' appear. And as for lack of purity, who can really say that the art of Kuk Sool, as promoted and taught by the WKSA, is any less mixed, or more pure, than any other?

An art doesn't need to advertise itself as Mixed or Comprehensive to be either Mixed or Comprehensive. Since Kuk Sool is a study of Royal Court, Buddhist, and Tribal arts of striking, grappling, throwing, and weaponry together with internal training and training of the mind, etc., it is obviously in the comprehensive category.

As to 'more pure', I don't think anyone was making a quantitative comparison of how pure one or another is.

But lets face it, "have no style as style" is basically the MMA mantra albeit said much earlier in a stupid movie by B. Lee. I always found his hypocracy annoying. He said "have no style as style" then set about the founding of his own style!
ahaha

elliotmurphy

14-Dec-2010, 02:44 PM

I wouldn't take it too personally pugil, you have most likely been doing your thing longer than that other one has been alive, lol. my dear old mom would have died of shame if I had ever talked to someone who was older than me in that manner, lol

SeongIn

14-Dec-2010, 02:51 PM

No SeongIn, it's not complicated, but since we are going after MMA for use of the word Mixed, I think we should also cast a stone in Kuk Sools direction for use of the word comprehensive. In fact, using your logic, I think Kuk Sool should start using the word mixed to describe itself.

I am not going after MMA for its use of the word "Mixed". I completely agree that what they are doing is "Mixed".

And, I am not going after Kuk Sool for use (implied or otherwise) of the word "Comprehensive". I thoroughly believe Kuk Sool is a "Comprehensive" art.

When I started martial art, everything was very stylistic. Meaning, if you wanted to learn throwing you had to study an art that did only throwing. You wanted to learn striking, you had to study an art that did only striking. You wanted to learn joint twisting, you took a joint twisting art. That is what stylistic is to me. (Add on since orginal posting: Moreover, within striking, grappling, or throwing arts was the stylistic element of it being either Japanese, Korean, or Chinese, etc. So, Japanese Kick-Punch art was not the same "stylistically" as Korean Kick-Punch art)

Then came the comprehensive arts which sought to bring each of these aspects (and others) together from within the same cultural background.

Then came the mixed arts which sought to "have no style as style" and pick and choose the parts each person wanted according to his/her own standards.

For me, there are clearly 3 groupings:

1) Stylistic arts
2) Comprehensive arts
3) Mixed arts

Obewan

14-Dec-2010, 02:58 PM

I think eclectic is more correct in describing KSW.

"Selecting a mixture of what appear to be best of various doctrines, methods or styles."

(Wicked again)

So I would think that KSW could be the grandfather of MMA, Yes?

SeongIn

14-Dec-2010, 03:02 PM

I think eclectic is more correct in describing KSW.

"Selecting a mixture of what appear to be best of various doctrines, methods or styles."

(Wicked again)

One of my instructors was eclectic. In an eclectic art/instructor, everything is in constant flux/change at all times. It is very difficult to have a written syllabus in a truely eclectic environment. Kuk Sool keeps a 'fairly' stable syllabus for a number of years before making tweaks.

Pugil

14-Dec-2010, 04:39 PM

An art doesn't need to advertise itself as Mixed or Comprehensive to be either Mixed or Comprehensive. Since Kuk Sool is a study of Royal Court, Buddhist, and Tribal arts of striking, grappling, throwing, and weaponry together with internal training and training of the mind, etc., it is obviously in the comprehensive category.

As to 'more pure', I don't think anyone was making a quantitative comparison of how pure one or another is.

But lets face it, "have no style as style" is basically the MMA mantra albeit said much earlier in a stupid movie by B. Lee. I always found his hypocracy annoying. He said "have no style as style" then set about the founding of his own style!
ahaha

Couple or more points I'd like to make in reply to your post SeongIn:

1) "...Kuk Sool is a study of Royal Court, Buddhist, and Tribal arts..." IF, indeed, that is reliably so! By which I mean, the truth!

2) You are mixing the meaning of 'style', and 'system'. They are different things. Everyone has their own style of doing things, even people engaged in the same system. Same as two or more drummers, harmonica or guitar players, etc., will also develop their own particular style of playing their instruments.

3) Bruce Lee DID NOT create his own system (which you — and Lee himself — mistakenly label as 'style'). The Way Of The Intercepting Fist (or Jeet Kune Do) was his conceptual approach to training in a wide variety of different martial/fighting art disciplines (or 'systems'), in order to discover what best suits each and every individual. There was never a fixed syllabus, which is what you will always have in a fixed system — such as Kuk Sool.

As far as MMA fighters are concerned, they also simply need to know what is going to be best for them to not only survive the rigours of their chosen competition environment, but also what is most likely to help them to win in it. So, quite naturally, they are not going to hamstring themselves by imposing fixed boundaries on the type of training they will need to do in order to achieve those aims.

Had people such as Dick Fosbury, for example, also not trained in an unconventional and non-traditional manner when attempting to take high-jumping to another level, they'd all still be doing the Western Roll over the bar. And before that, they used to Scissor Kick over it.

Some human beings are always looking at ways in which they can 'push the envelope' that little bit further. And it doesn't matter whether we're talking about how to play a 10-hole diatonic harmonica, run faster, jump further or higher, or outperform others in their martial arts ability.

My post is not in any way meant to be inflammatory or offensive to you, the Kuk Sool fraternity, the WKSA, or anyone else. At the end of the day, it should be a case of 'Each to their own', and 'Live and let live'.

As Dan Inosanto has said [and I'll paraphrase as I don't have the exact quote in front of me]: Everyone has a taste in food and music (among other things). Who is to say which is the best type of music? Just because someone prefers Classical over Blues, or Rock, shouldn't make them feel that those people are non-traditional, and not worthy. We like what we like. And what we like is probably the best for each and every one of us — at the time. But as our tastes often change over the years, whether we're talking about food, music, or martial arts, doesn't mean that it's a defect in the individual when that happens. It's just LIFE, so get on with it!

Herbo

14-Dec-2010, 04:46 PM

I was just going to comment on the difference between JKD concepts and Jun Fan Gung Fu, but perhaps posters such as Pugil would do the analysis more justice.

Convergencezone

14-Dec-2010, 04:51 PM

As Dan Inosanto has said [and I'll paraphrase as I don't have the exact quote in front of me]: Everyone has a taste in food and music (among other things). Who is to say which is the best type of music? Just because someone prefers Classical over Blues, or Rock, shouldn't make them feel that those people are non-traditional, and not worthy. We like what we like. And what we like is probably the best for each and every one of us — at the time. But as our tastes often change over the years, whether we're talking about food, music, or martial arts, doesn't mean that it's a defect in the individual when that happens. It's just LIFE, so get on with it!

This is a great analogy. Here on the west coast we have a style of cuisine called "fusion". It is essentially food made with a mix of different cultural Asian and western influences. Some of it can be very high quality gourmet food...but this depends on who the chef is.

Pugil

14-Dec-2010, 05:21 PM

"I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that. There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is. Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive. Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back."

Bruce Lee

Pugil

14-Dec-2010, 05:41 PM

I was just going to comment on the difference between JKD concepts and Jun Fan Gung Fu, but perhaps posters such as Pugil would do the analysis more justice.

Jun Fan Gung Fu was simply another way of saying 'Bruce Lee's Gung Fu'. His Chinese name being Lee, Jun Fan (as against his adopted Western name of Bruce Lee). I believe that when Lee opened his first school, he called it the 'Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute'. Which was the same as him labelling it as the Bruce Lee School of Kung Fu, Especially if we were to do it as a Westerner might do.

Lots of people use their name to distinguish their school from that of others. Take Gichin Funakoshi, for example. His pen name was 'Shoto', and when he introduced his version of Karate [originally he learnt Shuri-te] he referred to his school as Shotokan (Shoto's house), and the name was then simply transferred across to his particular brand/method of Karate teaching. Which is more-or-less the same as happened to Bruce Lee and the name he had used for his 'Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute'. People simply dropped the word 'institute' when referring to Bruce Lee's brand of Gung Fu.

SeongIn

14-Dec-2010, 11:52 PM

Couple or more points I'd like to make in reply to your post SeongIn:

1) "...Kuk Sool is a study of Royal Court, Buddhist, and Tribal arts..." IF, indeed, that is reliably so! By which I mean, the truth!

2) You are mixing the meaning of 'style', and 'system'. They are different things. Everyone has their own style of doing things, even people engaged in the same system. Same as two or more drummers, harmonica or guitar players, etc., will also develop their own particular style of playing their instruments.

3) Bruce Lee DID NOT create his own system (which you — and Lee himself — mistakenly label as 'style'). The Way Of The Intercepting Fist (or Jeet Kune Do) was his conceptual approach to training in a wide variety of different martial/fighting art disciplines (or 'systems'), in order to discover what best suits each and every individual. There was never a fixed syllabus, which is what you will always have in a fixed system — such as Kuk Sool.

1. It is apparent that much of what is Kuk Sool came from different categories of Korean martial art. It is not difficult to show the lineage between tribal, buddhist, and royal court arts. By this, I do not mean who studied from whom and when. I mean, to trace the IRon (theories), WeonRi (principles), BangBeob (methods), and KiSul (techniques). In the same way, it is not difficult to show the lineage of BJJ to Judo Ne-waza.

2. By "style" I mean "Ryu" as in "RyuPa". Martial art "styles" classically are called "RyuPa" and often are named *-Ryu. Such as GoJu-Ryu. I am not confusing "style" with "system" as "system" in the sense used refers to the organized collection or syllabus of an art and its teaching methods.

3. Myself and Lee himself recognized Jeet Kune Do ("Intercepting Fist Way") as not only a "Style/RyuPa" (which classically is correct), but also as a "Do" (path) in the same way as many other "modern" arts are "Do" (path). Many people add to or distort JKD and other things to fit how they want it rather than what it is/was. JKD is as much a "style" as TaeKwonDo is a "style".

Note: I have no bias for Kuk Sool as I am not a practicioner of Kuk Sool. So, what others say about Kuk Sool is not inflammatory or offensive to me. I simply recognize it and other things for what they are.

SsangKall

15-Dec-2010, 12:25 AM

SeongIn

15-Dec-2010, 01:07 AM

what style DO you practise, sir?! i gotta say, for all you have helped me with philosophy and etymology, for all the comments you have made of kuk sul, you haven't publically made a connection to any style other than hwang kee's mu deok kwan/tang su do. it is completely within your right to stay private or to not have an allegiance to a particular style, but i gotta say its kind of... wierd.

The MDK connection is from many years ago. But, it was an important part of my knowledge base. HKD and KSW are also very familiar to me as are other arts and have had a lasting impact on my understanding of martial art. However, none of these arts are what I teach now and the entirety of how martial art is taught by me is opposite how any and each of these and many other arts teach. I realize I am providing background without being specific or explaining what I now teach.

Analects 15:40. Confucius said, "In words all that matters is to express the meaning."

Since I seek neither to promolgate the art I teach within a forum nor have my words limited to a specific art, I speak to "express the meaning" without calling attention to the speaker. In this way, the message rather than the messenger becomes the important thing.

SsangKall

15-Dec-2010, 01:16 AM

araseoyo! thank you sir. i am happy you didnt take it the wrong way, and i learned a luttle sonething, too!

Ki_Power

15-Dec-2010, 01:45 AM

Just to add a few more pennies to the pile...

I might also say that some see just what is up front - the "Hollywood" of the whole thing...be it MMA, TMA, KM, KS, T&A...whatever.

To know a "thing", one must understand that thing...and to understand that thing, one must be one with that thing...then, if you are careful - or not that careful, you become that thing yourself.

Stereotypes ruin...and perception destroys! I used to have a motto I used when I was a Marine Corps Drill Instructor. "Perception is NOT reality"! Why, because you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about unless you walk in my shoes!

There are some OUTSTANDING MMA players in the game...and there are some OUTSTANDING TMA players in the game as well...and while I have tasted the BEST of both worlds...I now live the life of a TMA "thing". But I know what life is like on the other side of the fence, and I visit all the time...it just makes me (us) better players of the game...and our knowledge base grows!

On a slightly different note, I have a few issues with some people...and I can probably count those people on ONE HAND...and a few are dead already, so that leaves even less. And while I might not agree with every swingin' staff on this forum, I have enough intelligence to know that I am NOT the end-all...and there is ALWAYS someone out there who is BETTER than me!

Political Debate and friendly argument is all fine and dandy...but when it really boils down to what is what and who does what better...I mean c'mon...Isn't it about time we get over who invented what style and who's style is better, and who's daddy has a bigger shotgun, etc.

A systematic and comprehensive martial art system that covers "all" aspects of the Asian fighting arts...? Well...that means we GROW. That means I learn form you, you learn form me...and MMA has taught me a lot in the ways of readjusting and polishing my "Reality Based Scenario Training".

Sometimes I wish we all (on this forum), lived in the same town! Imagine what we could come up with if we had a town-hall training session! :cool:

Love, Peace and Hair Grease!

SsangKall

15-Dec-2010, 04:49 AM

or what we wouldnt say knowing someone would knock on our door minutes later! great post, liam.

Pugil

15-Dec-2010, 09:25 AM

[QUOTE=SeongIn;1074373743]Many people add to or distort JKD and other things to fit how they want it rather than what it is/was. JKD is as much a "style" as TaeKwonDo is a "style".

Ok, two things:

1) Take two Boxers in a ring. Whilst they will have been taught the same 'system' of fighting, i.e. Boxing, they will frequently show a different 'style' of fighting.

2) With respect, you are entirely wrong about JKD being, or ever meaning or designed to be a fixed system. Whilst it is indeed true that there are some people who have tried to encapsulate and define a fixed art called JKD, and who continue to teach JKD as a never-changing entity, it was never Lee's intention for that to be so.

According to people who I have spoken to, face-to-face, who actually trained with Lee himself, he (Lee) would constantly change and adapt what they were doing on a regular basis. As soon as he found (discovered, was shown) or developed a better way of doing something, he changed over to that way of doing it. He viewed the fighting arts as a whole, rather than as separate entities with fixed boundaries.

For further information and verification on what I have said, please see written works by Lee himself, as well as by his closest friend and training partner, Dan Inosanto.

YouTube - Dan inosanto on Bruce Lee and JKD 1

Pugil

15-Dec-2010, 09:38 AM

Additional to my last post, Dan Inosanto (over a quarter of a century ago) describes Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. It starts at about 1 minute 50 seconds in: YouTube - Way of the Warrior - Kung Fu, the Hard Way [4/4]

jamesdevice

15-Dec-2010, 10:25 PM

3. Myself and Lee himself recognized Jeet Kune Do ("Intercepting Fist Way") as not only a "Style/RyuPa" (which classically is correct), but also as a "Do" (path) in the same way as many other "modern" arts are "Do" (path).

from the way you've phrased that I would assume that you had a close connection with Bruce Lee and were involved in the development of Jeet Kune Do. Would that be a correct assumption?

unknown-KJN

15-Dec-2010, 11:23 PM

Gee, James, I don't think so. It would be my guess that our friend, SeongIn, was merely making an inference... The word 'do' is right there in the title, after all. :rolleyes:

jeet kune do (cantonese pronunciation) = jié quán dào [截拳道]

The first character means to cut off or intercept, the second character although literally meaning "fist" is also used to refer to boxing or martial arts. The last one, of course, means road/path/way but is also used to represent certain doctrines.

Actually, if anyone has any doubts about what JKD is or isn't, the wicked pædia does a fairly good job of describing it IMO. [wiki-link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do)]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/JeetKuneDo.svg/200px-JeetKuneDo.svg.png

jamesdevice

15-Dec-2010, 11:26 PM

unknown-KJN

16-Dec-2010, 12:03 AM

:topic: OFF-TOPIC :topic:

I was querying the way in which SeongIn appears to regard himself on a par with Lee when he says "Myself and Lee himself "
I believe he was trying to emphasize to Pugil that even Bruce Lee considered JKD as a 'style' rather than a system, with no other insinuation about him (i.e SeongIn) "being on a par" with the man (i.e. Bruce Lee). ;)

jamesdevice

16-Dec-2010, 12:12 AM

queer phraseology then

SeongIn

16-Dec-2010, 02:53 AM

I wasn't querying what JKD is. I was querying the way in which SeongIn appears to regard himself on a par with Lee when he says "Myself and Lee himself "
It seemed to be something that begged clarification

My post #56 line shown below was in direct response to Pugil's post #51 line below.

Since Pugil phrased his statement as "which you -- and Lee himself" I replied in like phrase "Myself and Lee himself".

I think my use of the same sentance structure as what Pugil used was apparent and appropriate. There is nothing to read into my statement which was not presented directly. But if I say "red" some people will read into that "crimson".

SeongIn:
Post #56 "Myself and Lee himself recognized..."

Pugil:
Post #51 "Bruce Lee DID NOT create his own system (which you — and Lee himself — mistakenly label as 'style')."

SIDE NOTE: I was never impressed with B. Lee's skill, philosphy, style, etc. I will, however, admit he made a better martial art actor than those of his period. Now, I realize saying anything negative of B. Lee will upset many in the MA community. So be it.

Pugil

16-Dec-2010, 11:59 AM

SIDE NOTE: I was never impressed with B. Lee's skill, philosphy, style, etc. I will, however, admit he made a better martial art actor than those of his period. Now, I realize saying anything negative of B. Lee will upset many in the MA community. So be it.

Did you meet and train with him then SeongIn? Or are you simply making that statement as the general opinion of someone who [as far as I am aware of, although do please correct me by PM if I'm wrong] has not, as yet, made as much impact on the martial arts as Lee obviously did.

Hate him, be unimpressed by him (without knowing him of course) by all means, but at least give him due credit for what he achieved. He popularised the martial arts like no other before, or probably since.

As for me, I never met the bloke, so I keep an entirely open mind to a lot of what I have heard and read about him. Having said that, however, I have attended many training seminars with the likes of Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, and the late Larry Hartsell, who speak very highly of Lee. And that I can't ignore, for I doubt if you or I could hold a candle to those three men I mention above anyway! But again, do please correct me if you are someone extra special in the world of the martial arts.

SeongIn

16-Dec-2010, 02:15 PM

Did you meet and train with him then SeongIn? Or are you simply making that statement as the general opinion of someone who [as far as I am aware of, although do please correct me by PM if I'm wrong] has not, as yet, made as much impact on the martial arts as Lee obviously did.

Hate him, be unimpressed by him (without knowing him of course) by all means, but at least give him due credit for what he achieved. He popularised the martial arts like no other before, or probably since.

As for me, I never met the bloke, so I keep an entirely open mind to a lot of what I have heard and read about him. Having said that, however, I have attended many training seminars with the likes of Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, and the late Larry Hartsell, who speak very highly of Lee. And that I can't ignore, for I doubt if you or I could hold a candle to those three men I mention above anyway! But again, do please correct me if you are someone extra special in the world of the martial arts.

If you are impressed by him, that's on you. You are entitled to your opinion.

Many people make impact on martial art. Many of these impacts are not positive. Nonetheless, impact is not a measure of quality. It may be a measure of marketability, access, or influence.

As to comparison, how do you compare anyone to someone viewed as an icon? There are many icons, but they all put their pants on one leg at a time just like you or I.

Quality is not measured by popularity. And there have been and are martial art masters of very high quality who are virtually unknown outside their own art, organization, or school. I am more impressed by certain masters and grand masters than the likes of B. Lee. Whom those masters and grand masters are I will keep to myself.

As to "extra special" in the world of martial arts, please define for me what that even means. Is it a measure of how many movies I have been in? A measure of how many books I have written? What? These other things increase the public recognition of someone, but are not measures of being "extra special" I would think. But then, I guess some people think actors and writers are better than the rest of us. So be it.

KSW4Life

16-Dec-2010, 02:35 PM

@ SeonIn

I do believe you are the most entertaining poster to grace the likes of MAP in quite a while. You and Dragonkarma should start a club.

hahhahhahahahahahaha

Herbo

16-Dec-2010, 02:54 PM

SeongIn

16-Dec-2010, 03:02 PM

As much as I hate the Bruce Lee nutriding "OMG Bruce Lee would totally killz Mike Tyson in da str33tz" brigade, you cannot deny that he was way ahead of his time with regards to the benefits of cross training and alive training.

While he may have been an actor, he has also encouraged many prominant martial art practitioners to take up MA and whilst some might see his direct impact as mostly commercial, his indirect impact on the martial arts world is thus considerable.

I do not deny that he made an impact on martial art popularity. And I did say he was a better martial art actor than others of his period. But, I do not see this as making him "extra special".

As to the cross training and alive training, that is best left to another thread discussion.

Pugil

16-Dec-2010, 03:37 PM

SeongIn

16-Dec-2010, 03:54 PM

I think that we should start another thread discussion where we only allow people to post who are prepared to be known by their actual names — rather than by the multi-identity pseudo-named people prevalent in these types of forums!

And knowing someone's name would change the meaning of their words? I do not know your name, nor do I want to, but that does not affect what you say or how I understand what you say. As for multi-identity, I have only ever used this one username "SeongIn" on MAP and have never been on any other public forum of any type ever.

But, if we are to specify our names, then wouldn't specifying our ranks, arts, instructors, etc. also be needed? And, if we do this, who is to decide which of these are authentic and recognized? And, if authentic and recognized, would we all then act according to proper YeEui (etiquette) based on rank, title, and position?

It is a null point since the internet is an anonymous communications medium and without that anonymity, forums discussions would likely die.

KSW4Life

16-Dec-2010, 04:01 PM

SeongIn

16-Dec-2010, 04:17 PM

I don't think we need names, but perhaps the martial arts studied and rank in said martial arts. Gives some weight behind what you are saying if you ask me. Right now, SeongIn just appears to be some random guy who probably started his own martial art because he wasn't impressed with his own instructor..................who probably taught kids.

So, let's start with you. Please provide your ranks, arts, instructors, and .jpg of your certificates of course so that these things can be verified. Thereafter, if it is all authentic and recognized, we can procede with everyone else.

Does this sound reasonable?

As to my primary and original instructor, I have trained with him for over 33 years now as well as having served in the armed forces with him. He lives within 10 miles of me (within 30 for 2 of those years). There have been, of course, others I have studied from. But he, more than anyone, has been my most influential instructor.

KSW4Life

16-Dec-2010, 04:27 PM

Sure, I'll start, and like I said, we don't need names as I prefer to remain anonymous, just like you can remain anonymous. But some background on what you practice I'm sure would be appreciated by all.

first degree in Kuk Sool Won
second degree in HapKido
purple in BJJ

SeongIn

16-Dec-2010, 04:37 PM

KSW4Life

16-Dec-2010, 04:42 PM

Army Combatives? Well that's all you had to say.

SeongIn

16-Dec-2010, 04:43 PM

Army Combatives? Well that's all you had to say.

I did not say that. Don't put words into my mouth. Also, it is apparent that you lack etiquette and are attempting to 'rate' me as if your limited experience is appropriate to validate what my abilities or knowledge are. Let me say that 1st and 2nd degree, while I congratulate you on these milestones, are many years back for me. I'll not be judged by some 2nd degree black belt. Other than that, I have no issue with you.

jamesdevice

16-Dec-2010, 07:42 PM

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm105/flatterkatz/forumimgs/detector.gif

KSW4Life

16-Dec-2010, 08:14 PM

Right, I always make it a point to judge a martial artist by the belt he is wearing, makes sense in your world I guess. Of course, that's one of the reasons I started BJJ. I felt it made more sense to rank someone based on their actual skills versus the number of techniques they have memorized, how pretty your kicks can be or IN YOUR CASE time in grade. I've been doing martial arts for over twenty years, I'm sure that must mean a lot to you SeongIn and that's why I'm throwing that out there. 30 years with the same instructor, that is mighty impressive, though wouldn't that make you the bloke with the limited experience?

Of course, you are the last person who should be talking about etiquette. I seem to remember you comparing martial art instructors who teach children to baby sitters.......Sir.

VegasMichelle

16-Dec-2010, 08:36 PM

IMO, that purple belt in BJJ is probably the most impressive of the 3 belts. I don't recall who your BJJ instructor is....but depending on who it is, there can be a large variance.

I like to go by mat-hours....that is, actual time spent training. I don't know the standards at your school but at mine, most other purples have roughly 2500-3500 hours.

In most KS schools, if you attend classes 3 times a week, every week, with NO sick days or holidays....it would take you 15 years to have that sort of mat-time.

elliotmurphy

16-Dec-2010, 08:43 PM

How many years does that 2500 take to accrue btw? Just curious

elliotmurphy

16-Dec-2010, 09:09 PM

I don't know much about time and or rank in bjj, that is why I am asking?

VegasMichelle

16-Dec-2010, 09:10 PM

How many years does that 2500 take to accrue btw? Just curious

Folks at my school are constantly training for some bout here and tournament (GQ, NAGA) there etc etc etc. We do 2-a-days @ 2 hours a piece (morning and evening for 4 hours total per day). We normally meet 2 to 3 times a week...but a few weeks before deadline, some folks put in 5 days per week. These are technique-based hours...strength and conditioning hours are separate and I'm not counting those.

Doing the quick math from above (12 hours per week x 52 weeks x 5 years = 3120 hours), that is roughly 5 years on that type of schedule. After 5 years in BJJ, it is a VERY common thing to still be a purple belt.

For KS, the schedule was more like 1.5 hours two or three times a week...not including strength and conditioning aspects (some forms). The math: 4 hours per week x 52 weeks x 15 years = 3120 hours.

------

Of course, both scenarios above presume a dedicated student who makes every training session and try to better themselves. This is not always the case...as there are folks out there who do nothing more than sit around for a few weeks and train here and there on a whim...and then, the next thing you know, they've been doing this for 30 years! And then claim "30 years experience." For this reason, I like the concept of mat-hours.

elliotmurphy

16-Dec-2010, 09:20 PM

Thank you, I was wondering, I don't know exactly how many hours a week I train, my instructors club is at a college, our class is officially one hour long, but as every semester you get a bunch of brand new white belts to teach twice a week, us regular students show up approximately an hour and a half to two hours before class and often stay after the official time is over, the other color belts also come to my house and train, and we often meet with our instructor on the weekends and I meet with him whenever I can convince him to meet with me extra, I am dedicated so I also spend time at home going through my forms and also making my girlfriend let me do my techniques wirh her. and you are correct many aren't dedicated or Passionate about martial arts but it also does a disservice to generalize all wksa folks into the less than dedicated category. Thanks again for your response.

Herbo

16-Dec-2010, 09:55 PM

I've found that switching to a combat athletic art my work ethic has increased as you are constantly reminded just how much better than you people are lol.

My typical schedule when I was training Kuk Sool and I didn't do much extra conditioning was;

4 hours spread across 3 sessions a week. White - DBN.
6 hours spread across 3 sessions per week. DBN - JKN.

With roughly 2 years at both intervals that gives me

(4x52x2) + (6x52x2) = 1040 hours to black belt.

elliotmurphy

16-Dec-2010, 10:01 PM

It's definitely hard to keep that ethic up, a lot of people aren't as dedicated, like the day before yesterday I had two different colored belts come to my house and I had then come at different times so I could spend more time training, then I still made ny girlfriend work out with me on top of all that. My poor girlfriend, she gets lots of practice time even though she is still a yellow belt, lol.

elliotmurphy

16-Dec-2010, 10:15 PM

You are absolutely right herbo, I'm a dbn at 40 years old because I switched to ksw after years of kenpo and I went to test on October, I think I was the oldest in my testing group and it definitely showed me how much more I had to work to maintain the same standard someone half my age needs to be in fhe same shape. And I'm definitely not the best ma by any stretch of the imagination, but I definitely work hard at it because of my standards and wanting to do the best that I am capable of.

Obewan

16-Dec-2010, 11:39 PM

I just looked at BS meter and its still pegged, LOL :evil:

SeongIn

16-Dec-2010, 11:45 PM

jamesdevice

17-Dec-2010, 12:01 AM

You are a rude person twisting things I say and insinuating things I have not said.

Seems to be a lot of people whom you feel that way about. Why is that do you think?
But if you don't want your statements to be misconstrued, try presenting them in a less obfuscated way.

As for JameDevice, I think he is just seeking attention.

No, I am just paying to you the attention and respect deserved by your public persona. When you choose to stop speaking in elliptical riddles then my view of the respect due may vary. Until then I am afraid that I will have to assume that my bogus-detecting senses are correct, and treat you accordingly.

SeongIn

17-Dec-2010, 12:05 AM

Seems to be a lot of people whom you feel that way about. Why is that do you think?
But if you don't want your statements to be misconstrued, try presenting them in a less obfuscated way.

No, I am just paying to you the attention and respect deserved by your public persona. When you choose to stop speaking in elliptical riddles then my view of the respect due may vary. Until then I am afraid that I will have to assume that my bogus-detecting senses are correct, and treat you accordingly.

I see you got 5 more minutes of attention.

jamesdevice

17-Dec-2010, 12:15 AM

that sounds like jealousy

Obewan

17-Dec-2010, 12:21 AM

Just cracked the glass...no really, go back and look.

jamesdevice

17-Dec-2010, 12:41 AM

perhaps that meter should be made a sticky

unknown-KJN

17-Dec-2010, 01:43 PM

Just cracked the glass...no really, go back and look.Well, I did go back and look but the glass was still intact... :rolleyes:

But I wouldn't want to put a damper on all the merriment you guys seem to be having at someone else's expense. Therefore just take a gander at the image below:

http://www.kuk-sool.org/cracked-BS-detector.gif

:jester: :banana: :D :banana: :jester:

Obewan

17-Dec-2010, 02:35 PM

Your The Man! Unknown, FWIW I was giving the entire conversation a jab, not just one person. I made you look though. LOL

Hyeongsa

17-Dec-2010, 04:47 PM

Wow....when I first signed up it wasn't this bad, but its starting to get worse! People don't talk to each other and politely point out where the person may, or may not be, accurate in their opinions. Their just flat out rude or violent to one another.

For example, I use to hold high regard for the Hae Dong Gum Do group, but when I found out (thanks to Out to Lunch) that they were nothing but a whole bunch of frauds, I have to admit I was disapointed. However, I did check up the information and it turned out that OTL was accurate. And not once was OTL degrading or insulting. Does that change their skills? No. Does that change their "history"? Yes.

SeongIn does not like Bruce Lee (apparently). I think he was influential on martial arts, he was a pretty good actor, and his skill sets were very impressive. And he made it okay for other martial artists to go around and study whatever it is they wanted to. Now, I think loyalty to one art is important and I'm not a real fan of MMA (but thats me) but its wonderful that there is the FREEDOM to go from art to art. A 1st Degree in Kuk Sool Won, 2nd Degree in Hapkido, Purple in BJJ...thats wonderful! I'm happy with my system of Kuk Sool (good for me right? LOL) but if your happy studying other things, thats great too.

Opinions are what make up this forum, and debating them rationally is how knowledge is gained. Some of you think the WKSA are on the straight and narrow, others think that they lost their way. Some think GM Timmerman is a scoundrel, others (myself included) thinks he's a good guy and a very nice man. Some think I'm an ass, some think I'm an ass. LOL But without these opinions, and the debate of these opinions rationally (and somewhat politely), how will we come to learn more from one another?

I do not wish to leave Kuk Sool because I believe that you should be able to make the techniques you have, and the principles behind them, work in any situation. Pugil posted videos of variations of the Kuk Sool techniques, making them work in any situation. THAT is what a Kuk Sool artist should use. I respect Pugil for that; however, he doesn't like me because I'm "close minded" and only do Kuk Sool. I don't like Pugil because he does MMA and left behind Kuk Sool. BUT, that doesn't mean I can't learn from him or his experiences in Kuk Sool and in combat in general. I know a guy who told me "Ollie is only good for a bar fight" and it shocked me he would call himself that mans friend. We need to remember a little civility and not insult one another. If somethings wrong with another persons post, correct it. Tell them why their opinion may not be completely accurate. Dont' be insulting about it.

As for remaining "hidden in the shadows" all cloak and dagger like, some people don't want to come out so they can be free to say what they want without risk of back lash in the real world. I know at least five people on here that, if they were exposed, it would cause harm to their current standings (you all know who you are! And I've never outed you or threatened to out any of you, and neve will, because thats the kind of person I am) so for any of you to want to out someone else, I think, is very rude. Be happy the person is competent and can hold his/her own in a conversation. If everyone is really serious about rank, but your ranks earned under your signature so everyone can know your status (that means everyone, not asking for someones rank and then bailing, SeongIn; I thought you would honor that statement you made). If everyone here does that, so will I! If not, drop the subject.

Rank these days doesn't mean much. People sell them and we all know a school that does that in our respective areas. "Want a black belt? Eh, good enough. Give me the cash." There ARE still places like that. Knowledge these days is whats imporatant. I had a conversation with a master recently. He is 8th Dahn, and does not know his 5th Degree Form. Thats like being promoted to Red belt without knowing Yellow Belt (and don't be shocked, there are alot of those kind of masters out there these days). No, a new form or set of techniques won't change anything about how you fight. But those forms ARE there. Those techniques ARE there. And there are no principles and theories that come with it that MIGHT affect someones thought process. So, do I hold less respect for him? No! He's very knowldgable. He and I are getting together so I can teach him the 6th, 7th, and 8th dahn forms as well as the techniques and weaponry. Am I better than him. No, no, hell no. But now he can grow and advance....as intended. And I can continue scurrying around, studying, and bugging my master. LOL

Maybe I'm just rambling. Point is, be nice. God. LOL The sheer brilliance on this thread alone, and all the experience here, from Saja, Unknown, VegasMichelle, Pugil, Obewan, Seong In, yours truly (you didn't think I'd leave myself out, did you? LMAO) is enough to send most martial arts hounds, like myself, into convulsions. Be nice for the sake of the newbies that want to learn without the poltics.

Pugil

17-Dec-2010, 07:08 PM

I respect Pugil for that; however, he doesn't like me because I'm "close minded" and only do Kuk Sool. I don't like Pugil because he does MMA and left behind Kuk Sool. BUT, that doesn't mean I can't learn from him or his experiences in Kuk Sool and in combat in general. I know a guy who told me "Ollie is only good for a bar fight" and it shocked me he would call himself that mans friend.

Just to put the record straight, in several areas, Hyeongsa:

Firstly, I don't dislike you at all. I don't think I even know you.

Secondly, I don't do MMA. I am involved in teaching multi-discipline and multi-cultural martial arts, and Savate (both sport and defence).

Thirdly, yes it's true that I moved away from Kuk Sool, but no one says you have to eat Yorkshire Pudding, meat, two veg and gravy all your life surely! It's like being in a marriage, and the two people grow apart. That's really what happened with me and Kuk Sool. I still come on this forum and post, however, and it's rare for me to find the time to post on any of the others. So I must still have some love for you guys. I don't just come on here with the intention of winding you all up. :cool:

Fourthly, I can't remember when I was last in a Bar fight, and I can tell you that being involved in that sort of thing is certainly something I try to avoid. As for being good at it, this guy is probably a lot better qualified and able: ;)

YouTube - How to win Bar Fights by Bas Rutten

Obewan

17-Dec-2010, 07:22 PM

Bang! Pow! Zap! Good Stuff Ollie!

elliotmurphy

17-Dec-2010, 07:25 PM

That made me laugh so hard.....don't you ever do that.....lmao

unknown-KJN

17-Dec-2010, 09:49 PM

Yeah... Despite Bas Rutten being known as a MMA fighter, I didn't see him recommend anything in that video Pugil linked (in post #103), that isn't also taught in HKD or kuk-sool.

No point really, just an observation. :Angel:

Pugil

17-Dec-2010, 10:11 PM

It's a piss-take Unkown! By which I mean, it's a bit tongue-in-cheek...

Pugil

17-Dec-2010, 10:20 PM

In fact, at 2:07 he doesn't perform the technique very well at all. He's in far too much of a hurry to remove the other guy's hand from his shoulder. Whereas, had he left it there after turning the hand and arm over, he could have used his body to greater effect in applying the straight-arm-bar. And at 2:48 [I think] he reaches down and behind him, but does not grab the attacker by the b*ll*cks — which I would've done! ;)

SeongIn

18-Dec-2010, 12:53 AM

(that means everyone, not asking for someones rank and then bailing, SeongIn; I thought you would honor that statement you made)

It was not my idea to find out anyone's background. It was the person I was replying to and another person's idea to start this whole background issue.

You will see in post #78 as a REPLY to his and another's request for information about me that I said:

"So, let's start with you. Please provide your ranks, arts, instructors, and .jpg of your certificates of course so that these things can be verified. Thereafter, if it is all authentic and recognized, we can procede with everyone else."

Now, of course he did not do this. He said his arts and rank, that's it. Where is the list of his instructors and "certificates of course" so that these things can be verified? And, then "if it is all authentic and recognized". And then, if it was all provided as specified, everyone else would have to do so. Nowhere did I say I would provide anything without him and everyone else having done so per my specifications.

Are my stipulations to his attempt to coax me into revealing my background ridiculous? Of course they are! That was the whole point of the quoted text above. It was facicious.

I had alread said in the previous post #76 as a REPLY to a request for background information:

"It is a null point since the internet is an anonymous communications medium and without that anonymity, forums discussions would likely die. "

In short, he and another were attempting to bait me into a rank/art/background war which is simply not going to happen. I was born at night, but not last night.

jamesdevice

18-Dec-2010, 07:51 AM

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sophistry

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sophistry

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sophism

jamesdevice

18-Dec-2010, 08:40 AM

I was born at night, but not last night.
maybe so, but your thinking appears to still be done in the dark

SsangKall

18-Dec-2010, 04:18 PM

and what are some certs worth? the value YOU put on them. even competent maists like the former kidohae haejangnim got fired for selling rank. no kidohae rank before 2007 is legit in their eyes anymore. if someone posted one of those certs they would be criticized.

unknown-KJN

18-Dec-2010, 05:39 PM

no kidohae rank before 2007 is legit in their eyes anymore.Well, my instructor's first kuk-sool certificate (chodan) was issued through the kido-hae, and it was definitely pre-2007 (hell, it was pre-1977), so I guess that means I learned from a fraud, huh? Is that what you're saying, SsangKall? :dunno:

Or is there a cut-off date going far enough back, where those certificates would still be considered valid?

elliotmurphy

18-Dec-2010, 07:24 PM

Unknown and ssangall, what exactly is the kidohae, sorry about my lack of knowledge but I just like to be able to follow the conversation, thank you

unknown-KJN

18-Dec-2010, 08:06 PM

Unknown and ssangall, what exactly is the kidohae, sorry about my lack of knowledge but I just like to be able to follow the conversation, thank youAlthough the World Kido Federation and the Korea Kido Association currently fall under different headings, at one time they were joint entities. WKF is now connected to the HMJ-HKD org., which is overseen by In Sun Seo (I think his oldest son, Scott, is in charge of Korea, and his youngest son, Steve, is responsible for USA).

Kido Hae (and sometimes, kido hwe) is the way that kido hoi (기도회) is often romanized and is short for hanguk gido hyeophoi (한국기도협회 : hanguk-kido-hyuphwe) or the Korea Kido Association. KSW and 30 other non-sport MA made up that org. 20 or 30 years ago. Since the current Korea Kido Assoc. is limited to working inside Korea only, nowadays when you hear someone mention kidohae, it's usually a reference to what has evolved into the WKF (in fact, they use it as the URL for their official website).

Here are some links:

Hanminjok Hapkido Association (http://hmjhapkido.or.kr/)

World Kido Federation (http://www.kidohae.com/)

Instead of the KSW-fist logo being on my instructor's certificate, it was that of the Kido Hae (and that old logo now belongs to WKF - IDK what the new Korea Kido Assoc. is using). The 2 images below are (from left to right) the HMJ-HKD logo and the Kido Hae logo.

http://www.kidohae.com/images/lg_hha.jpghttp://www.kidohae.com/images/lg_lightning.jpg

EDIT:

I apparently remembered incorrectly... The kidohae was originally the Daehan Kido Hwe (대한기도회) but it still translates as Korea Kido Association (daehan=greater han & hanguk=han nation, with han=korea). This is according to info found on the HWD website (click here (http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/history/map.htm)). Near the top of the chart on the right-hand side, you can see it listed, having been formed in 1963 by Bok-Sup Suh & Doo-Yong Kim in Daegu city (disbanded by them in 1968). IIRC, the current org. was resurrected some time later, but no later than the early 1970's with the KSW as a staunch supporter. It was this later group which helped foster the many KSW-HKD & kuk-sool HKD groups, many of which fizzled out either being absorbed by KSW/WKSA or by various HKD orgs. As I stated above, kidohae is now run by In Sun Seo & his family (to the chagrin of In Hyuk Suh & his family).

Pugil

18-Dec-2010, 08:23 PM

Instead of the KSW-fist logo being on my instructor's certificate, it was that of the Kido Hae (and that old logo now belongs to WKF - IDK what the new Korea Kido Assoc. is using).

Something like this?:

SsangKall

18-Dec-2010, 08:35 PM

my apologies, sir, as my instructor probably has a cert from kidohae as well. the point ws certs are quasi-ridiculous. but you would probably have to retest!!!

at mr murphy: kidohae is simply korean govs sanctioned organization to award hapkido certs. been around since 1962, i believe.

unknown-KJN

18-Dec-2010, 08:58 PM

Pugil, SsangKall, ...

check out my edits to post #115 :)

elliotmurphy

18-Dec-2010, 09:33 PM

Thank you gentleman, and merry Christmas

SsangKall

18-Dec-2010, 09:55 PM

Out-to-Lunch

18-Dec-2010, 10:09 PM

i was under the impression that master seo was asked to resign from the kidohae in 2007. lemme give the link:

http://koreanhapkidofederation.wordpress.com/2010/03/05/the-president-of-the-official-kido-hae-in-korea/

That is not true, and that link is BS. Anything from Richard Hackworth (who runs that site, and was kicked out of the KHF for unscrupulous and fraudulent dealings) is utter non-sense.

Master Seo was simply voted out of the KKA in a regular election by a coup of Masters with an agenda...and when he left after this, he took 80% of the KKA with him and founded HMJ-HKD which is now one of the largest KMA groups in Korea.

Seeing as GM Seo founded WKF independent of KKA the WKF left with GM Seo and is under the banner of HMJ-HKD.

------Edit-------
...and while I'm at it, seeing as that link touches on GM Burchett, it's also BS. Anyone who's been on the mat with GM Burchett knows that he is all that he professes to be, his approach to HKD is very no nonsense and effective...His students train very hardcore.

jamesdevice

18-Dec-2010, 10:47 PM

that mention of Hackworth leads back to this site http://www.jlim.net/Gallery/FakeCertificate.htm - which just re-emphasises the earlier comments about the worth of certificates

more here http://www.ripoffreport.com/teachers/richard-hackworth/-richard-hackworth-he-ripoff-m-feagf.htm

Old news, but worth remembering

SsangKall

18-Dec-2010, 11:02 PM

thats cool. good to know.

Herbo

19-Dec-2010, 12:23 AM

Wait, so does In Sun Seo sell rank? If so why has this not been mentioned before? or did I just miss it?

Hyeongsa

19-Dec-2010, 12:45 AM

Do you know what a Dahn Certificate means? Not a damn thing. I know Masters (of various ranks) that do not know past 4th or 5th Dahn, and I know 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Dahns that could put most of those Masters to shame; not only with their knowledge of the art of Kuk Sool, but with their fighting skills and their dedication to the art. If someone gives me a 9th Dahn certificate, do you really think that means anything to me? I couldn't care less. A rank, a title, it doesn't really matter. Anyone that runs a school is the master of that school. There are instructors in that school. There are students in that school. That's about as far as any of it goes (historically). The concept of a Grandmaster is really about one guy who opened a few schools with a few masters under him. That's about it. Every, and I do mean EVERY, teacher (regardless of the system) has his/her own way of teaching that art. Master Harmon teaches different from Master Alex. Master Alex teaches different from Master Jolly. Master Jolly teaches different from Master Lee, Master Lee teaches different from etc....etc....etc....

If In Sun Seo does sell rank, maybe I'll buy myself an 8th or 9th Dahn, or maybe even become the Founder and Grandmaster of my own system of Kuk Sool. There are so many out there now, one more wouldn't hurt, no? The reason I don't start yet another system of Kuk Sool is that currently there is: Kuk Sool Won, Kuk Sool Kwan, Yangs Kuk Sool Do, United Kuk Sul Do Union, Han Kuk Mu Sul, Ho Kuk Mu Sul, Hanminjok Hapkido, Kuk Sool of California, Kong Shin Bup Hapkido, Kuk Sul Wan, Dan Hae Kuk Sool Won, UMSF, and countless other Kuk Sool based organizations that have their own flairs and own agendas. If I would start my own system I'd be yet another guy...running yet another style....of the same damn art.....so that paper I got from the Kidohae wouldn't mean crap to anyone that was Grandmaster or Master of their own thing, now would it?

The piece of paper that you get is only as important as you make it. If I get a 7th Dahn from a Karate Master, that wouldn't mean anything to me because I don't practice, nor plan on practicing, Karate. So, that paper would be lost on me. That paper is only worth as much as the ink that is put on it. I could make a 4th Dahn Certificate for a very loyal 1st Dahn of mine, and it would not be recognized. Why not? I taught him up to 4th Dahn. He can spar and grapple me, and hold his own. He is my prize student and I feel he is ready for 4th Dahn...but some big shot didnt' sign it. Paper doesn't mean jack.

Xanth

19-Dec-2010, 03:38 AM

If In Sun Seo does sell rank, maybe I'll buy myself an 8th or 9th Dahn, or maybe even become the Founder and Grandmaster of my own system of Kuk Sool.

Call it Won Ki Do and sign me up for 9th dan, chief master of Won-Kiness !!:cool:

SeongIn

19-Dec-2010, 07:53 AM

Removed as :topic:

jamesdevice

19-Dec-2010, 08:31 AM

Call it Won Ki Do and sign me up for 9th dan, chief master of Won-Kiness !!:cool:

If you Google for Won Ki Do the seventh hit is this guy http://yoosmartialartsusa.com/grandmaster.htm

"Grand Master Jun Saeng Yoo came to the United States from Korea in 1976, a Grand Master of not one but three martial arts: Hap Ki Do, Tae Kwon Do, and Kung Fu"..."Grand Master Yoo holds a 9th Degree Black Belt in Hap Ki Do (1994). He is the former president of the Korean Hap Ki Do Kuk Sool Won Association. He has a 9th Degree Black Sash in Kung Fu (1995). He is President of the Tong Long Kung Fu Association. Grand Master Yoo also holds an 9th Degree Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do (2008) from the World Tae Kwon Do Federation (Kuk Ki Won)"

I may be doing the guy a disservice, but all that doesn't seem to add up or make sense to me-

Edit - according to http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/jun-saeng-yoo.htm:
"After graduating, Jun Saeng Yoo founded the Korea Tang-Lang Kung Fu Association, and Korea Kuk Sool Kwan Hap Ki Do Headquarters in Seoul, where he was president and Headmaster. "
It really doesn't seem to add up

PS - the fifth hit (and the first which is a martial-arts based hit) is for the Kido-Hae

Pugil

19-Dec-2010, 09:12 AM

Pugil, SsangKall, ...

check out my edits to post #115 :)

The logo I posted is slightly different to the one you posted Unknown. It would seem to be the one the Koreans are currently using.

Pugil

19-Dec-2010, 09:49 AM

There are so many out there now, one more wouldn't hurt, no? The reason I don't start yet another system of Kuk Sool is that currently there is: Kuk Sool Won, Kuk Sool Kwan, Yangs Kuk Sool Do, United Kuk Sul Do Union, Han Kuk Mu Sul, Ho Kuk Mu Sul, Hanminjok Hapkido, Kuk Sool of California, Kong Shin Bup Hapkido, Kuk Sul Wan, Dan Hae Kuk Sool Won, UMSF, and countless other Kuk Sool based organizations that have their own flairs and own agendas. If I would start my own system I'd be yet another guy...running yet another style....of the same damn art.....

But that is exactly what has happened to the three original versions of Karate over the years Hyeongsa. All systems of Karate go back to Okinawa, before it was annexed by Japan, and made a province. Those original three versions of Karate related to the part of Okinawa they originated from:

Shuri-te ~ named after the capital city; Naha-te ~ named after another large city; and, Tomari-te ~ named after the port close to Naha. 'Te' meaning 'hand' of course.

Shuri-te was said to have been heavily influenced by hard-style Shaolin systems. Conversely, Naha-te was said to have related more to the softer forms of the Chinese arts. Tomari-te was open to influences from many different arts, due to its connection with a port.

The three methods were generically referred to as Okinawa-te. When they were introduced into Japan, from around the late 1800's, the name Okinawa-te was replaced by Kara-te. 'Kara' generally believed by most scholars to mean 'China'. So the Japanese themselves regarded Karate as originating from China.

So you see, in Okinawa they changed the names of the arts they had originally adopted mainly from China. And when those arts went into Japan they became known collectively as Karate. And as successive generations of Karate masters adapted what they had been taught, to more suit themselves, they also sometimes gave their particular version (or 'style') of Karate a name of their own.

Shotokan is probably the best known, having been introduced into Japan by Gichin Funakoshi — regarded by many as the Founder of Karate in Japan.

So without going further down the road of Karate's evolution of change [some might say 'revolution of change'], we can only assume that human nature, being what it is, will inevitably lead Kuk Sool down a similar path.

SeongIn

19-Dec-2010, 10:47 AM

Shuri-te ~ named after the capital city; Naha-te ~ named after another large city; and, Tomari-te ~ named after the port close to Naha. 'Te' meaning 'hand' of course.

The three methods were generically referred to as Okinawa-te. When they were introduced into Japan, from around the late 1800's, the name Okinawa-te was replaced by Kara-te. 'Kara' generally believed by most scholars to mean 'China'. So the Japanese themselves regarded Karate as originating from China.

首里 ShuRi (수리), 那覇 NaHa (나패), 泊 Tomari (박)

In Tomari, the art developed called 唐手 TōTe (On)/KaraTe (Kun) the name of which was later changed by the Japanese to a homonym 空手 KaraTe (Kun) (공수). Thus, from "China Hand" to "Empty Hand". Tomari was influenced by 唐手 from Korean merchants. The other areas ShuRi and NaHa are thought to have been influenced primarily by Chinese.

Hyeongsa

19-Dec-2010, 02:12 PM

Wonderful information. I'm completely dull when it comes to Karate, so that was very nice information to read.

Kuk Sool has already gone down that path: in Korea alone, there are Kuk Sool Won schools that still use the same logo, name, and uniforms, but add their own flairs to it and teach TKD forms, Jui Jitsu (calling it Korean Grappling...whatever. LOL), and some Chinese Forms as well. Or they really REALLY modify the teachings and make up their own stuff. That's not to say they can't/shouldn't, but Kuk Sool has truly disolved. And you can't even say there is only one real Kuk Sool Won anymore...what about In Sun Seo and his camp? They teach the old syllabus (with alot of the JKN material being at Brown/Black Belt, Yuhk Guhm Hyung being at 4th Dahn, only 6 Palm Techniques, etc) and they use the words Kuk Sool Won. Are they any more/less than In Hyuk Suh's Kuk Sool Won? Who knows anymore.

And the name of my association is "Master Awsomes Martial Art of Supreme Awsomeness". I think it has a wonderful ring to it!! ^^

In all seriousness, there are a few students I teach what I know to. If I did decide to start my own thing, you'd be looking at:
A COMPLETE syllabus from White Belt - 10th Degree Black Belt
Forms from both Kuk Sool AND Hwa Rang Do
Weapons forms from Muye Dobo Tong Ji, Kuk Sool, and Hwa Rang Do
Techniques from Kuk Sool, Hwa Rang Do, and "Korean" Jui Jitsu (I forget what they're calling it in Korea these days, but its the same thing)

Anyway, that is what I link it as anyway. I was taught these forms from my master, who trained with both Do Jae Nim and Kuk Sa Nim back during the day. The only reason I don't start my own style is because I'm lazy. And I don't have a sponser yet. LOL But would your opinions change of me if I said "I am the Master of the blah blah blah"? Not really. I'd still be the same bloke as before. A Masters standing is not only what he can teach and do. His standing is determined by what he has done for his students, for others, and making the quality of life around those whose lives he touches better.

Hyeongsa

19-Dec-2010, 02:13 PM

By the way!
Has anyone heard of the martial art of "HWAR DO", supposedly founded by the worlds most amazing Supreme Ultimate Grandmaster? Just curious.

SeongIn

19-Dec-2010, 02:19 PM

Removed as :topic:

Herbo

19-Dec-2010, 02:29 PM

I have a different name for ground fighting and it is not based on JuJutsu at all.

Care to elaborate?

SeongIn

19-Dec-2010, 02:35 PM

Removed as :topic:

jamesdevice

19-Dec-2010, 02:59 PM

I have a different name for ground fighting and it is not based on JuJutsu at all.

I think herbo_ksw is asking for the name of your ground fighting skills, and also the origins of its basis. If it is not based on JuJitsu, presumably it is based on some other pre-existing older skill set. What are those? Or are you indicating that you have originated a complete new ground fighting system?

Hyeongsa

19-Dec-2010, 03:01 PM

www.grandmasterhykwon.com

Head Grandmaster H.Y. Kwon
Founder of Combination Martial Art Hwar Do
10th Degree Black Belt
World Champion - King of the World Championship
Also:
9th Deg. Black Belt - Tae Kwon Do (W.T.F. Kuk Ki Won)
10th Degree Black Belt - Hap Ki Do (Korea Hap Ki Do Federation)
9th Deg. Black Belt - Kum Do (International Federation Hae Dong Kum Do)
8th Deg Black Belt - Kung Fu (Korea Kung Fu Association)
And other degrees

Grandmaster Kwon was born in South Korea and at the age of five he started his training in martial arts. Following an old Korean tradition, he was asked to deliver food to the neighbors before his cousin’s wedding and had to make a stop at a house with a large, unfriendly dog. In retelling the incident he said "After crossing a bridge over a large stream and following the path to the doorway, a snarling dog lunged at me. I instantly dropped the food and began running towards the stream. The dog kept getting closer and the bridge was too far away, so I jumped right across the large stream. Afterwards, I asked my Grandmaster how I was able to do so for I thought that it was impossible for a boy my size to do such a thing. My Grandmaster explained that since it was an emergency that extra-ordinary strength and energy came out. I asked him why I don't have this ability when I practice, and he told me ‘With more patience, concentration, and hard practice, you can call upon this strength whenever you choose.’ During many difficult days of training I reflected upon the advice of my Grandmaster as I thought about that day before my cousin's wedding and the strength I had to jump across the large stream while running from the dog." As he promised himself, he devoted his life to martial arts training and began to realize the extra-ordinary human power as his Grandmaster had explained. He then began studying many different styles of martial arts to learn how to wield this power.

Master Eric Kwon, Grandmaster Kwon, Master H.J. Kwon

Grandmaster Kwon was operating four schools in Seoul Korea in 1982, when the U.S. and Korea celebrated 100 years of friendship. That year he traveled to the U.S. as the head coach of the Korea Pro Tae Kwon Do team for the International Pro Tae Kwon Do Championships and he became very interested in America. In 1983, he came alone to the U.S. with the dream of one day creating the world's best combination martial art to help the growth of martial arts in America. After the first week of being in the U.S., he opened a school teaching Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do, and Weapons. At that time he did not have a home and he slept in his school. In the winter to save money he turned the heat off and many of the nights were very cold and nearly unbearable. That year was his first Christmas in America and he did not realize that all the restaurants would be closed which forced him to go without food for the holiday. His limited English skills also caused him problems. While getting his haircut, the barber misunderstood him and shaved Grandmaster’s head rather than trimming it. In another incident, he mistook liquid soap for skin lotion and, after it dried, his face became very irritated. There were many problems that made life difficult, but he always kept his martial art mind and spirit, overcoming the many hardships. While teaching, he always kept a positive attitude, giving his best, and the results brought him many students. Five years later, his family was able to join him in the U.S. While teaching, he found that his students wanted to learn the techniques of other martial art styles as well, therefore, he began devoting his entire life to researching his ideas to create and develop the world's best martial art form, naming it Hwar Do which is a scientifically blended style bringing together the best techniques from Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do, Kung Fu, Karate, Kickboxing, Judo, Weapons, and other animal fighting forms.

After Hwar Do became an official martial art in 1989, Grandmaster Kwon relocated to the Washington, D.C. area to establish and expand the growth of Hwar Do from the nations capital. In 1991, Grandmaster Kwon proudly became a citizen of the United States of America. 1992 marked the year that Grandmaster Kwon began teaching seminars on the Hwar Do techniques instructing masters from around the country which then expanded worldwide. He also held a demonstration to benefit handicapped children. Next, Grandmaster started creating video tapes on Hwar Do techniques in 1993 and completed the ten tape set by 1996. In 1997, Grandmaster held a demonstration to raise funds to benefit Children’s Hospice International. Then, Grandmaster was invited to give a special demonstration at the Full-Contact World Championships in 1998. Grandmaster Kwon’s career reached new heights in 1999 when he became the winner of the sparring category for the first-ever Grandmaster’s King of the World Championships. In 2000, Grandmaster performed another amazing demonstration raising $11,020 to help The Autism Society of America. In 2004, Grandmaster received the World Peace Martial Arts Academy Award, and in 2007, Grandmaster completed 48 curriculum DVDs. Grandmaster continues his training and teaches at the headquarters in Centreville, VA. His two sons, both masters, carry on the legacy teaching in Ashburn, VA and Gainesville, VA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KING OF THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP

Taegu Auditorium, Korea Nov. 13, 1999. This century’s best martial artist came to compete in the speed, power, and sparring categories for the first ever Grandmaster’s King of The World Championship tournament. The winners were speed king: Grandmaster S.G. Dong; Power King: Grandmaster C.T. Goh; Sparring King: Grandmaster H.Y. Kwon.
In the sparring category, Grandmaster Kwon and Grandmaster Kim made it to the finals. Grandmaster Kwon’s first attack was a kick to the chest and a palm strike simultaneously, knocking down his opponent. That man then stood up and Grandmaster Kwon put his shin in the back of Grandmaster Kim’s knee to take him down and proceed to put his foot in a joint lock causing Grandmaster Kim to submit. Grandmaster Kwon weighs 81kg, but he is still able to put his leg behind his neck despite his size. This shocked many people in the audience. Also, the Grandmaster can do this while squatting with the other leg. To do this even once is very difficult for other people, but he can do so over 150 times in a row. Additionally, Grandmaster Kwon conditions his knuckles and the chopping part of his hand, creating tremendous calluses. This allows him to strike a metal punching bag instead of a canvas one. People said that he is so strong and solid that he is like a metal machine. They also said that he is a complete martial artist, mental and spiritual aspects as well. Grandmaster Kwon created the combination martial art HWARDO and has produced ten video tapes teaching his techniques. He now teaches his art to the public.

The rules for the sparring category were.

2 people chosen from the semi-finals will compete in the finals. The last person standing will be King
No height or weight constraints. Also, each martial art does not compete separately, but all together.
No holds-barred. There are no limitations on techniques used except, due to high ranking status of theses competitors, using knuckles is not allowed. However, any other type of hand technique is permitted.
40 minutes continuous sparring is the time limit
Ways to win include submission. Knockout or unanimous decision of the judges that the other person cannot intelligently defend themselves.
No point system