Karate blocks ineffecient?

[Adam]

I generally find the blocks commonly used in karate to be rather inefficient, though karate experts seem to be very hard to get through to. Any thoughts on the karate blocks? (I was always sort of bad on them. My school stressed conditioning and power over blocking)

[KickChick]

Being a TaeKwondo practitioner, I was taught that a block (or most of them) are actually designed to damage your opponent, so the block does the damage and the strike follows in for the kill (so to speak).

[pgm316]

Less important than the blocks you know is how you use them! ;)

Don't get confused with the basic learning methods, large overexagerated movements help build technique and muscle memory, in use movements will be shortened/adjusted to fit the situation.

Or find a new style! :D

[Telsun]

Don't get confused with the basic learning methods, large overexagerated movements help build technique and muscle memory, in use movements will be shortened/adjusted to fit the situation.
Absolutely:D The overexagerated move is to help develop coordination with the body. The arms are used as levers to help the body adjust to the correct position during movement. When we have become skilled the same coordination is still there but the range maybe reduced to good effect. You will notice that in sparring a karateka will not use a full range movement but more of a parrying type movement.
That is what I was told and I believe to be true when I asked the very same question;)

Other views will be taken on board with a great deal of interest.

[morphus]

CKD uses a deflection rather than a block.


I would imagine that meeting a strike with a block could damage the blocker as much as the striker(depending on size & strength perhaps) or that it would be pretty hard to use a direct block unless your arms(contact point)were conditioned which means that only a high'ish rank would/could perform a block without so much risk. Is this fair to say???:confused:

[Telsun]

What is CKD Morphus?

[Cain]

What is CKD Morphus?

Hehehehehehe :yeleyes:

Oh c'mon guys it ain't that boring is it ;)

*glances around nervously at the fiery eyes locking on him*

:D

|Cain|

[morphus]

This explains CKD a bit. Unfortunately CKD has a bad name on MAP because of previous threads.

All i can say "I - ME" think it is a good art - it prob' has flaws like any other art, but it suits ME!




http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/styles/choikwangdo.htm

[Knight_Errant]

hmmm, interesting... For instance, if you actually try to use a gedan barain to block, say, a body shot, you are making a tactical error. The guy could give you a whopping great hit to the face. In actual fights, I find I just keep my guard arm up and pick off the hits as they come. If you have expectations, and your opponent is on top of his game, he'll make sure you're dissapointed.

[paul paterson]

What is gedan barain?
Sounds like something that you do in the toilet...

Should be Mae gedan barai which is Front lower sweeping block, you could also put Yoko instead of the Mae.

Test my chest and see how strong it is! This attitude still lives under the fighters; many of them neglect their blocking, because they think they can take the puch or kick without any damage. Nevertheless, blocking is very important.

One of the main faults in the training of inexperienced fighters (but also of advanced karateka) is too much emphasis on attack. Especially for debutants, blocking is the most important aspect of fighting. Great emphasis on blocking is required in training.

A block involves complex movements that have to be triggered by an opponent's attack all within fractions of a second. Blocking movements have to be grinded into the subconsciousness by rigorous training; countless repetitions of the same movement or combination of movements because a process of learning, that makes it possible to react to an attack without thinking - on reflex.

The block is an attack and the attack is the block, most blocks are made within a very short distance of the body. Thus it is more important to practice your basics. Basics is the key to all things in life as well as in karate or any other martial art.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[WhiteWizard]

i've always been told that the block is primarily used to stop you getting your block in quick and making sure that it deflects it away making the body open so you can go on the offensive

[paul paterson]

A tactical error in making a mae gedan barai to the body!!....

Sounds like you lack the knowledge of what you are saying or even that of fighting. Having to block will help save you but can also open up your attacker. When you block you are strong by blocking but you are also weak by the blocking. Thats why you learn how to do it in the first place.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[paul paterson]

Now we are getting slightly into the world of competition karate, and thats in a world of its own.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[Adam]

I seem to recall learning a lot about quickly following up the block with an attack to the opponent while he's off guard. Is this what you mean Paul?

[paul paterson]

YIP....

As soon you block the attacker as well as yourself are weak therefore you get in with the counter-attack, making sure it works and will do the job. Most people have played chess at stage in their life, fighting, blockeing etc is like a game of chess. You attack, then you block, then you attack again....

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[paul paterson]

When an opponent's attack is blocked, all of a sudden the advantage is on the side of the defender. It gives him an opportunity for a retaliation, a counterattack. Most of the time when a vicious attack is neatly blocked or evaded, the opponent is both physically and mentaly out of balance. This moment should not pass unused.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[KickChick]

Also note that a mid inner forearm block can be used in close encounter self-defense and before the attack is completed. The purpose being to strike a pressure/nerve point in the incoming hand/arm as you do the block. Yep, there are points on the arm where the whole arm will go numb.


True, it does all boil down to basics, basics, basics. You need to understand the basics and make them a "part of you".

Otherwise you end up with paralysis by analysis.

[Mike Flanagan]

The so called 'blocks' that you see in karate kata are inefficient, if you use the movements in their entirety, as a block. I believe the reason for this is that they are compound or generic movements that can be used in many different ways, not just as simple blocks. Trying to use them as they are presented in kata, with all the chambering/preparation and hikite (withdrawing one hand to the hip) and you will just get smacked. Which is why you never ever see people using them in sparring, everyone realises that they don't actually work.

Try this as an exercise. Look at the chamber/preparation for the 'block'. Now imagine that this part of the movement is the actual block itself, the rest of the technique can then become a strike.

Take shuto-uke (knife hand block) for example. Rather than block with the outwards movement try using the initial sweep across the face as a block.

There is a clue in the name. 'Uke' doesn't really mean 'block'. I understand a more accurate translation would be 'response'. So shuto-uke becomes 'knife hand response'.

Mike

[Ozebob]

Hi Mike,

Originally posted by Mike Flanagan
The so called 'blocks' that you see in karate kata are inefficient, if you use the movements in their entirety, as a block. I believe the reason for this is that they are compound or generic movements that can be used in many different ways, not just as simple blocks. Trying to use them as they are presented in kata, with all the chambering/preparation and hikite (withdrawing one hand to the hip) and you will just get smacked. Which is why you never ever see people using them in sparring, everyone realises that they don't actually work.

# Many of the so named 'Blocks' in modern kata have replaced other techniques or been modified in some way. The change from jodan to chudan punches in modern kata have led to changes so that techniques have been presented as chudan blocks.

Try this as an exercise. Look at the chamber/preparation for the 'block'. Now imagine that this part of the movement is the actual block itself, the rest of the technique can then become a strike.

# I think this appears to be correct on the surface but youwill find that these chambering positions are already known as 'blocks' by another name.

Take shuto-uke (knife hand block) for example. Rather than block with the outwards movement try using the initial sweep across the face as a block.

# Shuto uke has replaces kake te.

There is a clue in the name. 'Uke' doesn't really mean 'block'. I understand a more accurate translation would be 'response'. So shuto-uke becomes 'knife hand response'.

# Uke can be translated as 'to receive' but it can also be translated as block. Modern Kata contains a lot of moves that were created for reasons other than application.

Mike

More later, have to run to class :)

regards,
Bob McMahon

[Knight_Errant]

Yeah, a tactical error. The best block to a bodyshot is an elbow block. The karate lower block, in my opinion, is only of any use against kicks. A 'gedan barain' is what you get when you are typing on a blue plastic keyboard with ****** switch reliability. An elbow block DOES open up your opponent. But if he doesn't have a lazy hand, he will get it back in again. I have actually had my clock cleaned by my elder brother when I used a lower block against his body shot. Hook, uppercut, kick.

[paul paterson]

The "best" block?

You must show me this, as the word best is used by egotists who want their heads to swell.

There are good blocks as well as bad ones, each block can be from any part of the body and all blocks are effective and efficient. The part that makes them so is something that lies between the ears...the brain. With basics and kata you are learning about the technique, you are feeling the technique, thus you become more attuned to the response. Just because the basics or the kata has full movements does not mean that they are less effective, what is apparent is the lack of openess from the students eyes and brains from not seeing what its really all about.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[paul paterson]

Karate began as a system of unarmed self-defence, which allowed Okinawan farmers to defend themselves against soldiers of an occupation army. Even as karate blossomed into a formal art-form, Gichin Funakoshi, one of the early masters, continued to emphasize the perfection of defensive techniques before offensive techniques for the well-balanced karateka and martial artist.

Defensive techniques are, of course, of great practical value. Secondly, they require the use of basic blocks and can be perfected only by repetition. Finaly, the study of defensive techniques encourages the development of certain personality traits, namely calmness, awareness and, with persistent practice, a sincere humility.

It is a sad fact that not all students understand this concept of the real martial arts.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

[Freeform]

My karate sensei always said that there are no blocks in Karate.

How zen is that?

Answers on a postcard to the usual address! ;)

Col

[Ozebob]

Hi Paul,

Originally posted by paul paterson
Karate began as a system of unarmed self-defence, which allowed Okinawan farmers to defend themselves against soldiers of an occupation army.

# Completely untrue.. you need to update your sources of information mate.

Even as karate blossomed into a formal art-form, Gichin Funakoshi, one of the early masters, continued to emphasize the perfection of defensive techniques before offensive techniques for the well-balanced karateka and martial artist.

# Incorrect. Funakoshi taught karate as physical education and not as a Martial Art at all.

Defensive techniques are, of course, of great practical value. Secondly, they require the use of basic blocks and can be perfected only by repetition.

# Defensive techniques of value are those that enable one to avoid a physical confrontation. Basic blocks are not what they seem, they were modified to such an extent that some are useless in their current format.

Finaly, the study of defensive techniques encourages the development of certain personality traits, namely calmness, awareness and, with persistent practice, a sincere humility.

# I don't see that..

It is a sad fact that not all students understand this concept of the real martial arts.

# I agree.. very sad.

Osu.
Paul Paterson.

Regards,
Bob McMahon

[Kwan Jang]

-I teach my students that defense is the most important aspect of a fight. Obviously offense is vital and there is some truth to the saying "the best defense is a good offense", but the loser is the one whose defense collapses first. I stress that set-point control, mobility, and angles of attack are the most important factors in defense. Parries, re-directions, and hard-core blocking is seconadary. I agree w/ the school of thought that believes that the basics are primarily counter strikes(grab and strike; usually to pressure points) and joint manipulations first and punishing/damaging blocks second. Though they do function well as pure block and counter with weapons, espescially kobudo. To me this is the groundwork of the grappling of "old school' combative systems that were the forerunners of modern karate, thd, ect. I do agree with Paul's statement about the importace of basics, but I feel there main value to most students is in teaching increasing power by using the hips; body control, balance, and coordination. This can help a student to develop the attributes that will lead them to technical and physical excellence. The bunkai of PP and joint manipulation gives more advanced practitioners more layers to grow from. IMO this is where many of the MMA, cross training, and progressive movements are kind of missing the boat. Too many are too quick to totally dismiss this vital area and they suffer for it. I am part of that movement, but I choose to not discard my roots or my base. There are reasons that these were handed down. For there value.

[paul paterson]

Ah...the history of karate as taught by the so called experts, I claim to no nothing but my eyes are open and my heart is full of life. When people dictate to others then they shall fall and weak will run, yet I take Ozebob's poit, slightly out of tune Yes but who is wrong?

Osu.
Paterson.

[kakushidi]

Adam,

Some very efficient blocks can be inefficient if used in certain ways. For example, many karate systems have self defense techniques where you step back, and the blocking hand has to cross the path of the incoming kick or strike, and then move it out of the way.

IMHO, this is very inefficient.

However, lets imagine that a right strike is coming in. For argument's sake it is a right hook with lot of power, and you need to block it.

You immediately begin a counterclockwise spin while shifting your body weight to your right. This can mean a slight step to the right, and if you have your right foot back, can mean moving the foot forward (1-2 feet) and to the right (1 foot).

While this body shifting and rotation is occuring, you raise your left hand so that the thumb points to the forhead, just a few inches away.

That is about 90% of the arm movement of the block. The power of the block comes in the body rotation. The key is to anchor the upright forearm to your body.

The same can be done with a kick.

Both are effecient. Each uses minimal movement of the arm, and leverages the turning power of the body. You don't redirect the attack as you do when you step back. You merely keep the attack on its original trajectory, so it can't be redirected to your new position.

-Kakushidi