Ephedra may be legal once more in US-

[Drunken Miss Ho]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050414/ap_on_he_me/ephedra_suit_8


Now don't get me wrong, I used to take Ma Huang, or as it's more commonly called ephedra, for sinus problems and I had to stop because it made me positively nuts (try 8 espressos type nuts). I think it can be very dangerous stuff, but I find this to be a good sign as far as the FDA backing off supplement regulation. And when I say supplement regulation I don't mean just potentially dangerous herbs such as ephedra, but things like vitamin C, which certain folks, like the pharma industry, have been trying to regulate for years. Anyway, I believe most of the folks who died from ephedra had no business taking it to begin with. Any thoughts?

[Ular Sawa]

I would agree. A baseball player with a pre-existing heart condition takes an excessive amount of a supplement on an extremely hot day and falls out. The media & polticians then start a groundswell to ban this most "dangerous" substance that this guy had no business taking in the first place. If he had not been a professional baseball player, then you'd have never heard about the issue at all.

[Davey Bones]

My thoughts are pretty clear cut. READ THE LABEL. If you have a condition which prevents you from taking Product X, THEN DON'T TAKE IT! Trust me, I have wanted to take Hydroxycut or some other ephedra weight loss suppliment to get rid of the bit o' gut I have, but between my stress levels and my asthma, can't take it. I have resisted because you do not want to give someone with a mild anxiety disorder and asthma anything with ephedra.

[leke]

I have resisted because you do not want to give someone with a mild anxiety disorder and asthma anything with ephedra.

Huh, Isn't ephedra meant to relieve the symptoms of asthma?

[Kwajman]

Generally its the abuse of something that causes the problems. Heck, if aspirin was a new product and tried to come on the market these days it'd never make it.

[Davey Bones]

Huh, Isn't ephedra meant to relieve the symptoms of asthma?

Depends on the formula and the processing, I think. I'd have to double check, but most of the ephedra-based products have been advertised as increasing metabolism, and I'm not sure how that impacts asthma. Although perhaps Miss Ho can exlain since she was taking it for sinus problems...

[KickChick]

Much your confusion about ephedra lies in the simple distinction between ephedra and ephedrine…

Ephedra is a plant (an herb) which acts as a broncho-dilator that herbalists value as a natural and effective alternative to asthma and allergy drugs. Ephedrine is the active constituent (alkaloid) of ephedra....

Ephedra (Chinese ephedra) is an herb with over 2000 years of recorded human use in China. For 40 years it has been used in food supplements here in the US. There are several species of Chinese ephedra, each containing 'natural' ephedrine alkaloids, which are the active ingredient.
In its concentrated powdered form it is referred to as Ma Huang and contains 6-8% ephedrine alkaloids.

"Synthetic" ephedrines are the active ingredients in OTC drugs like Actifed and Sudafed, preparations for the common cold and allergies that have been sold since the 1920s. Vasopro (which can be purchased legally still) is a an xpectorant/bronchodilator and contains a "synthethic" ephedrine (HCI 25 mg) which is 40 times the amount that you get in the natural herb.

So this ban hasn't taken these synthetic versions of ephedrine off the shelf yet, which would ban most of the sinus and cold medications such as Sudafed

This article may shed some light on the ephedra/ephedrine controversy.
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2004/02/03/ephedra_ephedrine_what_difference.htm

[slipthejab]

is an herb with over 2000 years of recorded human use in China.


Much of the Chinese pharmacy and herbal remedies are based on anecdotal evidence at best. For much of it there have never been controlled scientifically rigid studies done. So much of it is lacking clinically reproducable results. So much of the history is simply word of mouth and hearsay.

This is not saying it doesn't work. Or that it hasn't worked for others. Just something to be aware of. Word of mouth and anecdotal evidence are not exactly what you want to be basing your preventative medicines on.

Lots of this kind of stuff is now coming under close scrutiny here in Hong Kong - Why?

Because they always end up having old folks kickin' off or becoming very ill.. because it turned out whatever herbal medicine they were taking had no regulations and limits on the amount of heavy metals, pesticides and other undesirable substances in it - so they end up with massively elevated lead levels, or toxins and pesticides in their systems and all kinds of problems.

For those of you that think Asia is all about herbal remedies and traditional Chinese meds. - think again... the clinics here are packed.. someone gets a sneeze and they go to the doctors office.. he then hands out pills like they're goin' out of style.. most people take about half of what they're supposed to and then you end up with drug resistant strains of viruses and bacterias. So the mystic idea of people in Asia scarfing down traditional meds is a fallacy.. they scarf down enough western meds. too. lol. :D

This stuff hits the papers here quite a lot. But I doubt if much of it ever filters through to the West. :confused:

And what unfortunately doesn't help this situation at all is the complete hostility of most Western pharmaceutical companies when it comes to anything that may threaten their bottom line. :bang:

[KickChick]

And what unfortunately doesn't help this situation at all is the complete hostility of most Western pharmaceutical companies when it comes to anything that may threaten their bottom line. :bang:


.... the war being waged against ephedra (by the FDA) is nothing more than a smoke screen to distract people from the far more dangerous effects of prescription drugs. If prescription drugs and over the counter drugs were measured by the same yardstick, more than half of all drugs would be banned outright
The only "substances" being targeted by the FDA are those that threaten the profits of the drug companies.

So what is the real mission of the FDA???
To protect drug company profits, or the health of the public?
In reality, the FDA is far more dangerous to your health than ephedra.

[Davey Bones]

I'm agreeing with kickchick on this one.

If Ma Huang can take care of my sinuses, asthma and allergy issues, why should I pump out $20/6 months for an Allbuterol inhaler and $20/month for Allegra?!? Really, what benefit does it serve except to line the pockets of CVS and my HMO?

And what about the unexplained side effects of a lot of perscription meds that most people don't even know about? Librax (clidinium/chlorodiazipoxide), a popular medication for the treatment of digestive disorders, and Lexapro, one of the new "wonder drugs" to treat depression and generalized anxiety disorder both have the unexplainable, and commonly never warned-about, side effect of weight gain. I put on 10 pounds in one month thanks to these. It may sound vain, but my family has a history of heart disease, so the last thing I want is a weight gain caused by perscription medications!

Or worse, how about the research (most recently published in US News and World Report and quite common on Web MD as a warning) that certain anti-depressants can actually cause suicidal behaviour, especially in teens? Or how about the near-liver failure my dad went through because of Lipitor, which is commonly perscribed in the states to help heart attack patients. And let's not even get into the current research on certain perscription drugs which cause heart failure!

The FDA should be ashamed of itself. This is why I'm working on going natural... some of these perscriptions are more trouble than they're worth!

[slipthejab]

Yeah. The good 'ol FDA.

Case and point of my last paragraph.


And what unfortunately doesn't help this situation at all is the complete hostility of most Western pharmaceutical companies when it comes to anything that may threaten their bottom line.

Ahh.. the depths of complicity
:D

[Davey Bones]

sorry, slip, needed to vent. I did see that statement, and I also thank you for debunking the common myths that Asia is somehow this enlightened region where everyone does holistic medicine and doctors are run out of business by the acupuncturist next door. And for the warning about what you're getting in that bottle of Saint John's Wort. Both are very valid concerns. I just have issues with the FDA, lol.

[Drunken Miss Ho]

And what unfortunately doesn't help this situation at all is the complete hostility of most Western pharmaceutical companies when it comes to anything that may threaten their bottom line. :bang:

And that's precisely why there aren't that many legit studies done on herbs etc. Some herbal and "New Age" treatments are quite hokey and don't do anything. Others have the potential to do great good, without the dangerous side effects of some prescription meds. And alternative medicine is not just an Asian tradition. Homeopathy is western in origin, it works amazingly well, but it too has not received the proper attention it deserves. I'm sure anyone on MAP who has taken the homeopathic med Arnica for an injury or bruising can attest to its worth. When I was much younger I was put on an antihistamine for my sinus trouble. I stopped taking them because I didn't like the way they made me feel. A few years later I saw a report on the news that several senior citizens and children had died from the same drug I had been placed on. So western meds can be quite a gamble as well. The herbs I currently take aren't regulated, but they work for me, and I doubt very much they will end up killing me. A huge problem is that people don't pay attention to their own body. When I took an ephedra tea, sometimes it made me quite speedy, and I stopped taking it, it obviously wasn't right for me. Another person might have been fine with it. But instead of continuing to take it I sought ought alternatives. By the way- thanks for the great posts guys, this is exactly the kind of discussion I hoped to start with this thread. I think these issues are very important right now, as more and more folks are looking for alternatives to their prescription meds.

Edit: started writing that post before slip the jabs response, would have phrased it a little differently had I seen it first :o

There's no reason alternative medicine shouldn't be regulated, I'm all for making sure there's no heavy metals in my tea, or my acupuncturist won't puncture my lung, but unfortunately I don't trust the FDA to do such a thing in a responsible manner. However, the more respect and attention alternative medicine receives, the closer we come to it being responsibly regulated. Will the Pharma industries allow it to happen is the question.

[Cuchulain82]

I used to take Hydroxycut and I can offer a few personal observations:

(1) It works
(2) It is like being on speed

I took it for about 4 months as part of a training program. The results were dramatic- I lost about 25 lbs (I naturally hover between 245-250 lbs), going from about 260 down to a very slim 235. I didn't need to sleep as much at night (6 hours instead of 8) and I could lift more weight in the weightroom. I wasn't hungry as often either.

However, my blood pressure jumper up 10-15 points. Furthermore, my intuition tells me that the above effects would probably diminish over time (I think they were more dramatic because I was just beginning a dramatic change in my exercise routine after "letting myself go").

In any case, I can't really advise against ephedra- Hydroycut gave me remarkable results- but I certainly reccomend doing some reserach. And if you have heart problems of hypertension, taking ephedra is probably a bad idea.

(The quote about being on speed above is actually what a doctor told me)

[KickChick]

Oh and that link you supplied Miss Ho is dead ...


here is another explaining the ... FDA ban on ephedra overturned by judge (http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050415/news_1n15ephedra.html)

[KickChick]

And Cuchulain82 I can attest to the same results using a similar product and was extremely upset whan it was taken off the shelves.

Me and a training partner were frantically trying to find sources in Canada and unfortunately they too banned the sale.

Similar non-ephedra supllements just didn't work.

(I've used the synthetic ephedrine and cut with caffeine but that's dangerous if you are not careful)

Moderation again is key here..... unfortunately the average person does not or refuses to follow directions for safe usage..... and ephedra can be used safely, barring no physical ailments that you may have that may restrict your using safely.

[TXKukSoolBB]

I used to take Hydroxycut and I can offer a few personal observations:

(1) It works
(2) It is like being on speed

I took it for about 4 months as part of a training program. The results were dramatic- I lost about 25 lbs (I naturally hover between 245-250 lbs), going from about 260 down to a very slim 235. I didn't need to sleep as much at night (6 hours instead of 8) and I could lift more weight in the weightroom. I wasn't hungry as often either.

However, my blood pressure jumper up 10-15 points. Furthermore, my intuition tells me that the above effects would probably diminish over time (I think they were more dramatic because I was just beginning a dramatic change in my exercise routine after "letting myself go").

In any case, I can't really advise against ephedra- Hydroycut gave me remarkable results- but I certainly reccomend doing some reserach. And if you have heart problems of hypertension, taking ephedra is probably a bad idea.

(The quote about being on speed above is actually what a doctor told me)

Same story here. I used it for several years for only short periods of time (after my off-season) and had excellent results. I never had any problems...but I also followed the directions. I no longer pursue the on&off season routines...so excessive weight is no longer an issue. I just keep it off all together. I also have asthma, but never saw any effects (positive or negative) while taking the supplement as far as my asthma goes. Everyones body is different and you really don't know how yours will react until you try. That is the gamble. But that is with all medications, perscription or not. Just read the instructional manifesto's that now come with any perscription medication. Side effects could include anything from death to a horn protruding from your skull! They place as many words on 3 pieces of paper as there is in War and Peace.

[David]

Ephedrine... takes me back to long nights of dodgy cheap fun. Can't afford amphetamines? Try 10 or 20 ephedrine/codeine tabs. Ghastly! And dangerous.

Rgds,
David

[slipthejab]

slip, needed to vent

no worries. :D

I used to live in the states. lol. I was born there. So I know that situation with health care there can be a nightmare. In a roundabout way that is one of the reasons why I train as hard as I do and watch all the details.

It's that old addage - an ounce of prevention... lol.

Especially if you have to rely on some HMO run by a mgmt. co. to take care of you. Scarey thought! :eek:

[Kwajman]

Unfortunately people in the states tend to think if one is prescribed, then two must be better. Then they OD.

[Drunken Miss Ho]

Lol :D

[Davey Bones]

Will Green Tea extract do the same thing as ephedra?

[Drunken Miss Ho]

Will Green Tea extract do the same thing as ephedra?
In regards to weight loss? From what I've heard back in my days working the vitamin counter, no. It works for some, but not as well.

[KickChick]

Will Green Tea extract do the same thing as ephedra?


... actually green tea does accelerate metabolism which of course can help weight loss slightly.

A study done by the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, found that green tea extract significantly increased energy expenditure (a measure of metabolism), but also had an effect on fat oxidation. And it was also found that it wasn't just caused by the amount of caffeine that is contained in the green tea but in the interaction of the other active ingredients.

[Davey Bones]

Cool, especially with the other health benefits. I don't need to lose a lot of weight, just the few pounds the meds put on.

[Drunken Miss Ho]

I should clarify my above post- the folks I met who shunned green tea while bemoaning the loss of ephedra seemed to like Anna Nicole Smith a lot. So they know nothing! I think most of them wanted the crazy metabolism boost (i.e. high) ephedra provides. Green tea's safer and has extra benefits, so give it a shot. And let me know if it works, I've been wanting to get rid of these 5 vanity pounds forever!

Kick Chick- will the extract make you jittery? I'm fine with green and (sometimes) black tea, but coffee and ephedra make me nuts!
And how much more weight loss benefit do you get from taking the extract over just drinking tea?

[Kwajman]

Or you could just drink gobs of water. That always helps me lose weight.

[KickChick]

Kick Chick- will the extract make you jittery? I'm fine with green and (sometimes) black tea, but coffee and ephedra make me nuts!
And how much more weight loss benefit do you get from taking the extract over just drinking tea?


.. actually there are a few supplements you can purchase that contain a fair amount of green tea extract which help to stabalize blood sugar levels, minimize food cravings, and the jitters and shakes normally associated with ephedrine based product are minimal (remember green tea extract does contain caffeine!)

Prolab's Thermogenic Thyrolean
Osmo's Gink-Go-Lean
TwinLab's Ultimate Diet Fuel
Xenadrine EFX
Biotech's Norexin

More info here:
http://greentea.lifetips.com/
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/health-supplements/green-tea-extract.htm

[Maverick]

I have heard very good things about ephedrine when stacked with caffeine and aspirin.

I'd try some, but you can't buy Vasopro with paypal from the US on 1fast400.

[goatnipples2002]

I thought ephedra was the best thing since fried chicken. Can you still get Ma Huang? Legally?

[Davey Bones]

[QUOTE=Drunken Miss Ho]And let me know if it works, I've been wanting to get rid of these 5 vanity pounds forever!QUOTE]

That's pretty much the boat I'm in, although maybe 10. We're hoping that by stopping the meds I'll lose some weight, but I figure the green tea extract should help. The stuff I bought is pure Green Tea, no added caffeine. And like you said, with all the extra health benefits, and me being a former smoker, it certainly can't hurt.

[Drunken Miss Ho]

I thought ephedra was the best thing since fried chicken. Can you still get Ma Huang? Legally?

You couldn't for a long time, but you will be able to again soon, see the article Kick Chick posted.
On a side note: Practioners of Chinese medicine have always and are still able to use it in herbal mixtures, I think, but of course only for health problems, not for weight loss ( I think)

[goatnipples2002]

So is there anything that i can get that will work like hydroxycut? Expensive but hydroxycut was the <edit>until they changed it. I just had a baby girl 1.5 months ago and I gained 50lbs. and my lady gained like 30lbs. For a while I was a carnivore. I will start jogging again once i get the energy. Anyways, should I be able to find MA Huang at an herbal store? What products have it? And how do you pronounce it?

[Cuchulain82]

I have heard very good things about ephedrine when stacked with caffeine and aspirin.
That's essentially Hydroxycut- Ephedra with Aspirin and Caffeine as catalysts. I don't know the ratios, but those were the 3 active ingredients
(and, as I said before, it does work)

[Drunken Miss Ho]

So is there anything that i can get that will work like hydroxycut? Expensive but hydroxycut was the $h!t until they changed it. I just had a baby girl 1.5 months ago and I gained 50lbs. and my lady gained like 30lbs. For a while I was a carnivore. I will start jogging again once i get the energy. Anyways, should I be able to find MA Huang at an herbal store? What products have it? And how do you pronounce it?

You can't get it yet, I don't think all the legal stuff is over. You can only get it from an acupuncturist or herbalist who prescribes it to you, you can't just ask them for it. I'm betting though that you will soon see low dose ephedra products back on the market (specifically nutricuticals products).
I don't know about being able to find ma haung in an herb store, there were several teas that contained it before the ban, I don't know if companies like yogi teas and traditional medicinals will reintroduce it in their products. Be careful with it though, the stuff really can kill you (like any other herb or medicine can when misused)

[Drunken Miss Ho]

I have heard very good things about ephedrine when stacked with caffeine and aspirin.

I'd try some, but you can't buy Vasopro with paypal from the US on 1fast400.

For weight loss? or to get high?!? "stacking" ephedrine with caffeine and aspirin (is the aspirin to prevent you from getting a heart attck?) sound like a terrible idea to me, asking for trouble, and not worth the risk. When you start mixing this stuff up yourself you
a) have no reccomended dose guidelines to follow
and
b) have no legal recourse if you wind up with heart trouble for the rest of your life (or die) because of it

[KickChick]

You can't get it yet, I don't think all the legal stuff is over.

No you can get it ! ;)

I got several emails from supplement 'guys' I purchased from in the past that are offering "Ephedra sinica" which is another name for Ma Huang.

I would refrain from concocting your own stack of synthetic ephedrine/aspirin/caffeine supplement ... and just wait until you can locate a supplement with naturally occuring ephedrine in it.

[Cuchulain82]

For weight loss? or to get high?!? "stacking" ephedrine with caffeine and aspirin (is the aspirin to prevent you from getting a heart attck?) sound like a terrible idea to me, asking for trouble, and not worth the risk.
Well, as I said before, that really was the secret to why Hydroxycut worked so well. My blood pressure went up but I lost weight, so I don't know what to tell you.

[Drunken Miss Ho]

Well, as I said before, that really was the secret to why Hydroxycut worked so well. My blood pressure went up but I lost weight, so I don't know what to tell you.

I'm just saying, don't do this yourself. The company that makes hydroxycut has a level of responsibilty for your well being, and tests their products. Making it yourself is asking for trouble, IMO

I would refrain from concocting your own stack of synthetic ephedrine/aspirin/caffeine supplement ... and just wait until you can locate a supplement with naturally occuring ephedrine in it.

Exactly. And regular ephedra is less harsh than pseudo ephedrine, right?

p.s. Wow, it became legal so fast! I thought it had a few more legal hoops to jump through. Doesn't matter to me, cause I can't take it, but it's a real victory for the supplement industry. Hopefully people won't start abusing it again.

[David]

Can you get decaf green tea?

[Drunken Miss Ho]

Can you get decaf green tea?
Yeah, pretty much anywhere (major supermarkets included) where I live.
Or do you mean the extract?

[David]

I guess I mean the extract for preference...

[Drunken Miss Ho]

I just did a google search (decaf "green tea extract") and found a few.

[inteq9]

Ephedra is bad for your heart. But should be legal imo.

[Maverick]

For weight loss? or to get high?!? "stacking" ephedrine with caffeine and aspirin (is the aspirin to prevent you from getting a heart attck?) sound like a terrible idea to me, asking for trouble, and not worth the risk. When you start mixing this stuff up yourself you
a) have no reccomended dose guidelines to follow
and
b) have no legal recourse if you wind up with heart trouble for the rest of your life (or die) because of it

It's fine, mixing it yourself is no different to what companies did. The caffeine increases the fat oxidation and mental alertness and the aspirin makes the effects of the eph and caffeine last longer. The ratio is something like E:C:A 1:10:4 but the aspirin isn't completely necessary :Angel:

It's good for people who either have excessively slow metabolisms, or people who need to lose fat but can't afford to eat much less, like bodybuilders.

[Drunken Miss Ho]

It's fine, mixing it yourself is no different to what companies did. The caffeine increases the fat oxidation and mental alertness and the aspirin makes the effects of the eph and caffeine last longer. The ratio is something like E:C:A 1:10:4 but the aspirin isn't completely necessary :Angel:

It's good for people who either have excessively slow metabolisms, or people who need to lose fat but can't afford to eat much less, like bodybuilders.
Well I guess as long as you're very careful about it, and follow the ratios etc. I had envisioned somebody just downing a bunch of pills.

[hwardo]

ephedra should only be legal under the guidance of a practitioner, in my opinion. For instance, in Chinese medicine, we might prescribe ma huang tang, which contains ephedra, but it is given for no more than a couple of days, and in extremely limited quantities. It also is not prescribed when a patient has certain patterns of symptoms. Using it wrong is dangerous, just like tylenol. I think that using it as a diet aid is abusing the drug.

[Drunken Miss Ho]

^^^^ Very good point.