God without Church?

[myki]

Hey all, question for you...

Is it possible to know and love God/Christ/Allah or any other deity without being a member of a church?

I've heard from people that if you don't attend church then your faith is in doubt.

Personally I don't beleive that, but I wanted other feedback.

Cheers!

[tekkengod]

while i don't attend or love/believe in either. I know many very pious religious people who don't go to church on a regular basis. they honestlytruly and whole heartedly believe that there is an invisable man, who lives in the sky, and they love him to death, but they don't go to church to visit him often.

[davethekodiak]

myki,

the lord is inside of you. you dont need to go anywhere to talk to him. stay open and he will find you. the only person who can doubt your faith is you.

[tekkengod]

myki, the lord is inside of you.

you dont need to go anywhere to talk to him.

yeah, about as often as a catholic preist :eek:

you're right, you can talk to him anywhere problem is, its always a one sided conversation.

[davethekodiak]

sad but sometimes true :D

[Kwajman]

Of course why not?

[Alexander]

God (assuming for a very brief moment in time there is one) did not create the church. And since god is omniscient everyone can talk to him anytime at anyplace. If you believe that.

[Dancing Shadow]

I completely believe that it is possible to know God without being a member of, or even attending, a church.
If you look up the original context in which the word "church" was used, it did not refer to a particular building. It was used to describe people who believed in God as a group.
I find it sad that people look to other people for information about God, rather than turning to God Himself.
In my opinion, if you do not attend church, those who typically would question your faith are those who see the church as their own source of faith, rather than God.

[Bellator Manus]

Jesus (since apparently the only god to talk about is THE God), talked about going to church in that it's like metal sharpening metal. You don't have to go to church to be a believer, but it become much more difficult to become sharp.

[MDN]

Well, I think I can give a good answer to this question. My in my faith, the people are the church. Church was not supposed to be some big fansy temple that you attend once a week. Church is supposed to be the heart of man(and woman) and it's open 24/7. In my faith, the people never meet in a big church or any kind of temple. We meet in a persons home. So most of the people in my faith can say while they believe in God, they never go to a church building.

[Noib Da Mutt]

I don't attend church... I'm not religious... I have no religion... I am extremely spiritual and devout in my faith... I talk to God all the time, and I am a follower of Christ... I simply think christianity got it all wrong... So, my faith is my own, not the chruch's...

[Noib Da Mutt]

Jesus (since apparently the only god to talk about is THE God), talked about going to church in that it's like metal sharpening metal. You don't have to go to church to be a believer, but it become much more difficult to become sharp.

he said that the kingdom of God is within you, and likewise God's church...

[shaolin_hendrix]

I know plenty of christians who don't go to church. The church just tells people that they have to go so that they can take more money from people.

[Bellator Manus]

Basicsly, I think church is "were ever 2 or more are gathered in my name." I guess I should make that clear. A church is not a building, it's communing with other believers in his name. That's what makes you sharp.

[Stuart H]

One does not need to go to church to get salvation. But one is at an extreme disadvantage if one does not have fellowship with other Christians.

Noib - your post makes no sense. You're a follower of Christ, but you say Christianity got it wrong? Are you implying that somehow you know better than the Bible authors who had contact with Him while he was alive? I'm confused...

[tekkengod]

Noib - your post makes no sense. You're a follower of Christ, but you say Christianity got it wrong?

theres a distinct chance that hes thinking OUSIDE THE BOX OF HIS OWN FREE WILL AND ACTUALLY EXAMINING THE TEXT!!!!!!!!!! as opposed to your meathod of blind faith.

you know there acutually is, believe it or not, a chance that they WERE wrong.

[justinksw]

Hey all, question for you...

Is it possible to know and love God/Christ/Allah or any other deity without being a member of a church?

I've heard from people that if you don't attend church then your faith is in doubt.

Personally I don't beleive that, but I wanted other feedback.

Cheers!


Aboslutely. If you truly believe in god then it doesn't matter what building you choose to worship in. :)

[Davey Bones]

Hey all, question for you...

Is it possible to know and love God/Christ/Allah or any other deity without being a member of a church?

I've heard from people that if you don't attend church then your faith is in doubt.

Personally I don't beleive that, but I wanted other feedback.

Cheers!

You're correct, myki. You don't need a church to know ANY deity. Man created the Church, not <insert divine entity name here>. All that matters is that your faith is sincere. (Of course I'm an evil sinning Taoist, so what do I know, right?)

[Ferdie]

Hey all, question for you...

Is it possible to know and love God/Christ/Allah or any other deity without being a member of a church?

I've heard from people that if you don't attend church then your faith is in doubt.

Personally I don't beleive that, but I wanted other feedback.

Cheers!

Yes. I've only gone to church to hear mass every Sundays regularly when I got married (my wife's pretty devout) & I still fail to go some times. And to think that I studied in Catholic schools from nursery to college (and yes, I barely went to church on Sundays when I was still studying - although when I do go, I attend it w/ sincerity & complete attention). Faith, in whatever religion, is supposed to help you do what is right. If you're doing what is right, you're doing just fine & your faith is intact. But at the very least try to go once in awhile - if only to celebrate w/ other believers - whatever it is that you believe in.

[Strafio]

Noib - your post makes no sense. You're a follower of Christ, but you say Christianity got it wrong? Are you implying that somehow you know better than the Bible authors who had contact with Him while he was alive? I'm confused...

He basically means that what he thinks Jesus was talking about is different to what other Christians think Jesus said. Technically, as a follower of Jesus, he is a Christian. :)
Technically I'm a Christian because I believe in Jesus but see if I agree with most of the Christians I talk to... :)

[BendzR]

They should rename Christianity to Paulism.

Christ did not start the Church or Christianity. :rolleyes:

[tekkengod]

They should rename Christianity to Paulism.

Christ did not start the Church or Christianity. :rolleyes:

now even though you are right, expect lots of crap for that one.

[MDN]

The church was meant to be the heart of the people that followed Christ. Not some building/organization.

This thread also brings up the question(s): Do we need to kneel and put our hands together to pray? I think not. I think a lot of what jc refers to is the spiritual side not the material side of life.

[aikiMac]

Christ did not start the Church or Christianity.
Actually he did, but, anyway, I think Weird Alan's metal sharpening metal analogy was pretty good: "You don't have to go to church to be a believer, but it become much more difficult to become sharp." I would expect this to hold for any religion.

[Stuart H]

theres a distinct chance that hes thinking OUSIDE THE BOX OF HIS OWN FREE WILL AND ACTUALLY EXAMINING THE TEXT!!!!!!!!!! as opposed to your meathod of blind faith.

you know there acutually is, believe it or not, a chance that they WERE wrong.

Ah yes, since of course every other worldview is completely objective, whereas Christianity is blind, dogmatic and biased. You are completely logical and unbiased, where as I am simply blind faith.

I simply love how you think your opinions of Christianity are more valid than the Gospel writers, the early church fathers, biblical scholars, apologists, and all the billions of Christians who have come before you.

You are a bitter and hateful person. You will believe anything if only to deliberately oppose Christianity. You seek to eradicate eternity, philosophise objective truth away, and drown out conscience with pride. You are not seeking the truth, you simply seek more and more ways to ridicule, vellify and undermine the Christian Gospel.

[BendzR]

Either way, you can be a follower of Christ without being a Christian.

Just because you call yourself "a follower of Christ" doesn't mean you agree with everything he said.

I am quite the fence sitter when it comes to Christianity. A lot of it makes sense to me, and I agree with a lot of it. On the other hand, I don't believe in a lot of things. I am not a Christian on the simple terms that I do not believe Jesus - even if he was the Son of God - or anyone else for that matter can "Forgive" sins. It doesn't make sense to me.

In a previous post regarding this (Enlightenment - Philosophy Forum) I explained this, and was hoping Aiki could give me his thoughts, since he's by far the most sense-making Christian individual I have ever come across. *nudge nudge* I don't care much for titles such as "Paster" or whatever.

Anyways, back to my point. I have a huge respect for majority of what Jesus said as a person, and I see a lot of significance in his existance while he lived. As for his death, and apparently "saving me" from my Sins via Forgiveness through death, I simply do not get it, or believe it.

By definition I cannot be a Christian then, since I am going to hell. I still follow Christ in a lot of what he taught, and live my life based on a lot his teachings.

You can be a "Follower of Christ" without being a Christian. Suprisingly, not all non-Christians are evil!

[justinksw]

Ah yes, since of course every other worldview is completely objective, whereas Christianity is blind, dogmatic and biased.

I simply love how you think your opinions of Christianity are more valid than the Gospel writers, the early church fathers, biblical scholars, apologists, and all the billions of Christians who have come before you.

I don't believe tekkengod took it upon himself to make any particular statements about anyone in particular, unlike yourself. He never made it obvious that his beliefs are more valid than anyone else's. He simply stated that there is a chance that they were wrong. I think that people need to realize everyone has their own opinion and belief about this stuff, and it is just that. I would never claim to know the TRUTH about it all, I just have my own humble opinion.

Tekkengod - I'm not trying to talk for you... I agree with what you posted and I'm just trying to support it.

theres a distinct chance that hes thinking OUSIDE THE BOX OF HIS OWN FREE WILL AND ACTUALLY EXAMINING THE TEXT!!!!!!!!!! as opposed to your meathod of blind faith.

you know there acutually is, believe it or not, a chance that they WERE wrong.

Have a nice day! :D

[Stuart H]

They should rename Christianity to Paulism.

Christ did not start the Church or Christianity. :rolleyes:


Paul did not found the church either.
Christianity is named after the person from which its teachings came, which was Jesus Christ.
Interesting factoid - Christianity was initially called The Way. Not sure who gave them the name Christians.

[Davey Bones]

On the other hand, I don't believe in a lot of things. I am not a Christian on the simple terms that I do not believe Jesus - even if he was the Son of God - or anyone else for that matter can "Forgive" sins. It doesn't make sense to me.

By definition I cannot be a Christian then, since I am going to hell. I still follow Christ in a lot of what he taught, and live my life based on a lot his teachings.

Dude, how can you go to a hell it sounds like you don't believe in?!? I am not Christian, and generally laugh at their claims I'm going to hell. Yeah, sure, whatever it takes to make them feel better I guess.

[Stuart H]

Dude, how can you go to a hell it sounds like you don't believe in?!? I am not Christian, and generally laugh at their claims I'm going to hell. Yeah, sure, whatever it takes to make them feel better I guess.

So why don't you believe Christianity? (Just want you to open up within your own assumptions.)

[BendzR]

I was speaking in the context of Christian thought.

By Christian definition, I am going to hell. Since I haven't "accepted" Jesus as my saviour, whatever that means.

I'm still to be explained, how "a saviour" is a logical concept. I tried getting an explanation for about 20 yrs now. Still waiting. Until it is, it is kind of impossible for me to accept one.

I hope it's nice in Hell, because based on definitions, I don't have much hope. :)

[Stuart H]

I was speaking in the context of Christian thought.

By Christian definition, I am going to hell. Since I haven't "accepted" Jesus as my saviour, whatever that means.

I'm still to be explained, how "a saviour" is a logical concept. I tried getting an explanation for about 20 yrs now. Still waiting. Until it is, it is kind of impossible for me to accept one.

I hope it's nice in Hell, because based on definitions, I don't have much hope. :)

You are incapable of reaching the perfect standard of a holy and just God, as is everyone. Through faith and obedience in Christ, one can be saved. What's illogical about it?

[Davey Bones]

You are incapable of reaching the perfect standard of a holy and just God, as is everyone. Through faith and obedience in Christ, one can be saved. What's illogical about it?

The fact that you insist on telling people who don't believe in your god and hell we're going there anyway? That's seriously illogical!

[BendzR]

Okay, I know I Sin, as does everyone. That is fine and logical. It is quite impossible to not Sin unless you are all-knowing.

Jesus lived a perfect sinless life as far as his own actions went. That is fine and logical so far.

Now here comes the bit that makes no sense. Someone else dies, and somehow that makes me forgiven ? What?! No. Sorry, I got lost. I am still responsible for the negative consequences I inflict on this world.

Please explain to me, and I mean this cincerely (not trying to be a skeptic or bully) how the death of another person can pay for sins. :confused:

I guess it's a bit of a problem from the start, when I totally disagree that Death is the result of "Original Sin". I am an avid believer of Cause/Effect, and so this idea of original sin, and death sort of goes out the window for me as well.

[justinksw]

The fact that you insist on telling people who don't believe in your god and hell we're going there anyway? That's seriously illogical!


AMEN! Oops, I mean right on! :D

[aikiMac]

I am not a Christian on the simple terms that I do not believe Jesus - even if he was the Son of God - or anyone else for that matter can "Forgive" sins. It doesn't make sense to me.

In a previous post regarding this (Enlightenment - Philosophy Forum) I explained this, and was hoping Aiki could give me his thoughts, since he's by far the most sense-making Christian individual I have ever come across. *nudge nudge*
Well, when you put it like that, I suppose that have to say something.
[Dude -- pressure -- you know that eventually I'm going to choke under the pressure, right?]


Okay, I know I Sin, as does everyone. That is fine and logical. It is quite impossible to not Sin unless you are all-knowing.
Clarification -- it is quite impossible to not sin unless you are entirely righteous. You need not be all-knowing. That doesn't play into it. Jesus was (and is) God, and therefore was (and is) entirely righteous. That's how he dodged sin.


Jesus lived a perfect sinless life as far as his own actions went. That is fine and logical so far.

Now here comes the bit that makes no sense. Someone else dies, and somehow that makes me forgiven? What?! No. Sorry, I got lost. I am still responsible for the negative consequences I inflict on this world.

Please explain to me, and I mean this sincerely (not trying to be a skeptic or bully) how the death of another person can pay for sins. :confused:
Correct -- You are still responsible for the negative consequences that you inflict in this world. Call it karma, call it reality, call it a cheeseburger, call it whatever you want. Here's a silly but meaningful example: If you commit a crime and if you get arrested and convicted, God's forgiveness will not get you out of prison. You have to "pay the piper," as the saying goes.

Forgiveness of sin, or the lack thereof, concerns consequences that come in the next world.

No one understands how God's forgiveness works. No one understands how "salvation" works. Say that I'm copping out on an answer. Fine. Really, no one knows how it works. We can't hook up a person to a medical machine and mark a change in some internal tissue, but, we can trace the lesson of forgiveness and the lesson of a vicarious atoning sacrifice all the way back to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. God said, paraphrasing, "If you sin, you will die." They sinned. They didn't die. Oops. They were instead forgiven. But an animal died in their place right then and there, on the spot, and was dumped in a dead heap at their feet. [And we all groan, "Ewww! Yuck!] Adam and Eve lived many centuries more, and then they died, but the rule was established there in the Garden: actions have consequences, and you will answer to God someday.

You can like it or you can hate it but you can't make the rule go away. None of the Old Testament writers fully understood how forgiveness works or how "salvation" works. None of the New Testament writers fully understood either. But they could not, and did not, ignore history. The New Testament writers could not and did not ignore that which they saw, heard, and touched. They couldn't ignore the 333 prophesies that Jesus fulfilled in his lifetime. (Someone actually counted them all. I'm just quoting the figure.) See, for example, the opening verses of 1st John. The Apostle John was there. He saw it, he heard it, he felt it. He was there. He didn't understand how forgiveness worked, but he knew that Jesus was the "atoning sacrifice," and in light of that he knew that he didn't have to understand how forgiveness worked.

When all is said and argued, history is what you have to face up to. Whether or not you fully understand how forgiveness works is irrelevant.

[BendzR]

Firstly, sorry for the pressure :love: but thank you for the reply.

I really should go to bed now, its 3.26am on my side of the planet right now :Angel:

I got what you were saying in your post, but then I raise another question.

Adam and Eve were forgiven, as you say, and a lamb died. Was their forgiveness dependant on whether they believed they would be forgiven, or not ? In the context of the situation, it would have been first sin ever. Thus the 2 were unaware of Gods ability to forgive. This means they probably didn't expect forgiveness - and it doesn't mention in Genesis that they did. Yet, they were still forgiven, correct?

Why then, does Jesus dying for all of mankind, require people to be a Christian (accepting Jesus died for their sins) for it to kick into effect? Forgiving only those who seek it, seems a bit.. uncharacteristic with how Jesus comes across to me. But hey, what do I know ?

What I mean, why does Jesus' sacrifice only work, if you believe he did it for you? Doesn't that sort of contradict itself ? If Jesus only saves those who believe he saves them, then he doesn't save everyone, until everyone believes they are saved. Eww now I have gone crosseyed, and it's a bit late. I will try make more sense when I post again later.

Anyways, another question...

How then does one know you "accept" Jesus' as your saviour, if no one really knows how the concept of salvation works. I may interpretate his death, differently to someone else then. Both of us then may believe we are "saved" but are we ? Possibly not. I am sure not every Christian on the planet has the same interpretation.

It would be an aweful shame for someone to be sent to Hell, because they didn't interpretate "accepting Christ" in the right manner. Right ?

Does God forgive those who genuinely seek forgiveness for their negative imput to the world ? I would imagine so. Does God forgive those who seek forgiveness because they fear Hell ? Not so sure.

My biggest fear (and what I desire the least) is to cause harm and negative consequences on those who I love, family, friends, etc. I much rather pray to God to help me reduce this potential to cause them harm, than pray "please forgive me, because I wanna taste those cookies you guys make in Heaven! And Hell don't seem nice!"

It makes far more sense to me, to say salvation is for those who "accept Christ" in the sense that they live their lives, attempting to be Christ-like, which I do anyway (not because I want to get into Heaven, but I genuinely believe it makes my life a better existance, and benefits those around me).

Sorry if my poking at your Religion is annoying, it is not my intention. Thanks for taking your time Aiki in responding to my poking. ;)

[Capt Ann]

I'll take a stab at an analogy----Just consider it a conversation-starter, and feel free to throw rocks as necessary.

Suppose you fell off a Carnival Cruise Liner in the middle of the Carribean, and no one on board saw you. You are alone in the middle of the sea, miles and miles from land in any direction (with the possible exception of being a mere two miles from land, if you count 'straight down'). You have absolutely no hope of escape or survival on your own. Unless someone else intervenes, you are surely a goner.

Suddenly, a fishing boat appears on the horizon. The crew maneuvers the boat to within reach of your position, amidst crashing waves and gathering storm clouds. The crew tosses you a life preserver, securely anchored by a strong line to the side of the boat. In your current situation you decide to:
a. Complain that you don't like the color/size/fit of the life preserver, so you want a different one,
b. Tell the crew they are being arrogant and presumptuous by assuming you need 'saving',
c. Ask about all the drowning people in the Indian Ocean, and what happens to them,
d. Demand to see evidence of the sea-worthiness and national registry of the vessel, OR
e. Grab the life preserver with all you're worth and with sincere gratitude.

Your thoughts?

[Strafio]

Well, those people being the humans they are, are doing the best they can do.

If they had helicopters on the boat but said "screw it! Get off your ass and swim to us!", you'd probably still be kind of grateful that they were there, but you wouldn't be that impressed with them.

The way I see it, with God being so great and boundless, there should be no need or reason for judgement, and Jesus seems only to be saving us from his "impatience" with us. I wrote this whole thing down better in the Philosophy forum in the Enlightenment thread I think...

[shootodog]

Basicsly, I think church is "were ever 2 or more are gathered in my name." I guess I should make that clear. A church is not a building, it's communing with other believers in his name. That's what makes you sharp.

you hit the nail on the head. the church is the people of God, not the structure. the structure, the organisation, that's religion.

you're right, you can talk to him anywhere problem is, its always a one sided conversation.

sadly true. learn to listen.

[shootodog]

I'll take a stab at an analogy----Just consider it a conversation-starter, and feel free to throw rocks as necessary.

Suppose you fell off a Carnival Cruise Liner in the middle of the Carribean, and no one on board saw you. You are alone in the middle of the sea, miles and miles from land in any direction (with the possible exception of being a mere two miles from land, if you count 'straight down'). You have absolutely no hope of escape or survival on your own. Unless someone else intervenes, you are surely a goner.

Suddenly, a fishing boat appears on the horizon. The crew maneuvers the boat to within reach of your position, amidst crashing waves and gathering storm clouds. The crew tosses you a life preserver, securely anchored by a strong line to the side of the boat. In your current situation you decide to:
a. Complain that you don't like the color/size/fit of the life preserver, so you want a different one,
b. Tell the crew they are being arrogant and presumptuous by assuming you need 'saving',
c. Ask about all the drowning people in the Indian Ocean, and what happens to them,
d. Demand to see evidence of the sea-worthiness and national registry of the vessel, OR
e. Grab the life preserver with all you're worth and with sincere gratitude.

Your thoughts?

good one ann!

i doesn't matter if you do not believe in God, because He believes in you. He believes in you enought to create you.

[aikiMac]

Adam and Eve were forgiven, as you say, and a lamb died. Was their forgiveness dependant on whether they believed they would be forgiven, or not? In the context of the situation, it would have been first sin ever. Thus the 2 were unaware of Gods ability to forgive. This means they probably didn't expect forgiveness - and it doesn't mention in Genesis that they did. Yet, they were still forgiven, correct?
You asked so nicely, that I feel obligated to at least try to answer. First though, as a side note, the Bible doesn't say what type of animal it was. But neither does it matter at all. But as to your question --- yes, they were clearly forgiven, but the conversation is not recorded, so I don't feel comfortable saying much about it.


What I mean, why does Jesus' sacrifice only work, if you believe he did it for you? Every Presbyterian would say "yes." This is #3 of the "five points of Calvinism." John Calvin is one of the giants of theology. You can't go wrong with Calvin.


If Jesus only saves those who believe he saves them, then he doesn't save everyone, until everyone believes they are saved.
You have the wrong wording. Jesus only saves those who follow Romans 10:9-13: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture [obviously the Old Testament] says, 'Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.' For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

In the context of Romans, "Jesus is Lord" means "Jesus is God," and "raised him from the dead" refers to Jesus dying for our sins as prophesied in the Old Testament. Compare 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures [obviously the Old Testament], that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures [Old Testament], ..." Romans and Corinthians were written by the same person, the Apostle Paul.


How then does one know you "accept" Jesus' as your saviour, if no one really knows how the concept of salvation works. Faith, and the inner witness of God's Spirit, are the two personal evidence that one is saved. Ex: "The Spirit himself [of God] testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." Romans 8:16. This chapter of Romans talks about changes that occur when one "accepts Jesus," as you put it. As for external evidences that other people might actually see, the Bible lists many so-called "fruits of the Spirit" that one is supposed to display in ever-increasing amounts. The lists include love for other people, joy in life, inner peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, compassion, humility, gentleness, and forgiveness of other people. If you find a person who says he's a Christian but he displays none of these "fruits," you are allowed to doubt whether he is in fact a Christian. No fruit --> the Spirit of God is not in him --> he's not a Christian. I'm being honest. That's the true biblical test of Romans 8:9.


I may interpretate his death, differently to someone else then. Both of us then may believe we are "saved" but are we ? Possibly not. I am sure not every Christian on the planet has the same interpretation.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4, quoted above, states the context and therefore the meaning of Jesus' death. He died to fulfill the Old Testament prophesies. Luke 24:44-47 states the same context: "He [Jesus] said to them [the surviving 11 disciples], 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.' Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, 'This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." There you go.


Does God forgive those who genuinely seek forgiveness for their negative imput to the world ? I would imagine so. Does God forgive those who seek forgiveness because they fear Hell ? Not so sure. Yes to both, subject to Romans 10:9-13 above, and the clarification below.


I much rather pray to God to help me reduce this potential to cause them harm, than pray "please forgive me, because I wanna taste those cookies you guys make in Heaven! And Hell don't seem nice!" Let's revisit the context. The Bible was not written by one person. It was written by 40 people over some 1500 years, yet the product is a consistent, unified whole that presents a common, constant message. The message begins with Psalm 19:1-4: "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun." In other words, there is a God and you know it because the evidence is everywhere all around you. Romans 1:20 echoes that teaching: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 2:15 makes it personal: "... since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." In other words, your conscience tells you that you have broken God's law. Romans 3:23 makes it even more personal: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

That's a really bad picture: there's a God, you know it, and you broke his rules. What's the remedy? Well, what was the remedy for Adam and Eve? Oh ya -- it was Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." Said equivalently, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23) Jesus himself stated the remedy in this way: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) He also added the kicker, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father [that is, God] except through me." John 14:6.

It's too easy!! Come on, that's too easy. Accept God's forgiveness, and you're forgiven. Man, that's easy. Oh, but I forgot one thing: it has to be a sincere acknowledgement of God, and of your sin. God won't be mocked. That's a point that was raised numerous times in the writings of the Old Testament prophets. Isaiah chapter 1 is one such example.


It makes far more sense to me, to say salvation is for those who "accept Christ" in the sense that they live their lives, attempting to be Christ-like, which I do anyway (not because I want to get into Heaven, but I genuinely believe it makes my life a better existance, and benefits those around me).
Note the "fruits of the Spirit." They're good things. The highest level of Christianity is being Christ-like, and this is only evidenced through the fruits of the Spirit. Several times the New Testament writers exhort us to be imitators of Christ. But back to your comment here -- keep in mind John 14:6, quoted above, and Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Don't be cocky if you display more fruit than other people.

[munkiejunkie]

My family are christian (I am a buddhist) and they dont go to church. Church is a place to increase your faith, and reading the Bible does that as well. I am not sure of what happens after death, no one can say with 100% certainty "This is what happens after death". Everyone doubts thier religon from time to time, it is human nature. I follow zen buddhism and meditate to find enlightnment. I may be going to hell, but as I see life is suffering, as is hell, just even more suffering(hell, that is), I do not really fear it. Your religon is your religon, mine is mine. I have one last thing to say, though. Some my find one system of belief hard to accept, and you cant see how, well that is because you can accept, and do not understand there doupt. It is said that your religon chooses you, and buddhism chose me, while <insert your religon here> chose you

[jroe52]

god exhisted before church:) church came after jesus:)

buddhist temples came during the first living buddha's reign, but there were buddhas before him.

allah instructed mohamed, before the first mosque.

therefore, all religion exhisted before man exploited it:)

funkadelic "the kingdom of heaven is within"